Latest / The Body Pod / Rethinking Nighttime Nutrition: Dr. Mike Ormsbee on Sleep, Metabolism & Fat Loss

Transcript

Rethinking Nighttime Nutrition: Dr. Mike Ormsbee on Sleep, Metabolism & Fat Loss · The Body Pod

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, This is Haley and I'm Lara and welcome
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Speaker 1: to the body Pod.
0:10
Speaker 2: Welcome to the body Pod. Today I get to interview
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Speaker 2: doctor Michael Ormsby, who is a professor and graduate program
0:19
Speaker 2: director in the Department of Nutrition and Integrative Physiology, the
0:23
Speaker 2: director of the Institute of Sports Science and Medicine at
0:27
Speaker 2: Florida State University, and he is a fellow of the
0:31
Speaker 2: American College of Sports Medicine and the International Society of
0:35
Speaker 2: Sports Nutrition and is a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
0:40
Speaker 2: with distinction through the National Strength and Conditioning Association. His
0:44
Speaker 2: research expertise involves the interaction of exercise, training, nutrition, and
0:49
Speaker 2: supplementation to improve metabolism and achieve overall optimal body composition,
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Speaker 2: human performance, and health in both athletic and clinical populations.
1:00
Speaker 2: Today we talk about pre sleep feeding for females that
1:03
Speaker 2: has always been thought to be a no no, at
1:06
Speaker 2: least in my world, the sex differences in research, and
1:09
Speaker 2: why everyone is going to want to start taking collagen
1:12
Speaker 2: if you aren't already. We also talk about the nuances
1:16
Speaker 2: in scientific research and how there seems to always be contradictions,
1:20
Speaker 2: So you're going to want to listen up to this
1:23
Speaker 2: and share with a friend. Let's get into the show.
1:31
Speaker 3: All right.
1:31
Speaker 1: Welcome doctor Mike Ormsby to the Body Pod. So excited
1:36
Speaker 1: to have you here today.
1:38
Speaker 4: You know, it's been really cool. We're just talking offline
1:41
Speaker 4: about some friends that are mutual to us, so I'm
1:44
Speaker 4: find it happy to connect with you.
1:46
Speaker 1: Yes, and I actually just spoke with Abby Smith Ryan
1:49
Speaker 1: who I know you know too, like thirty minutes ago,
1:53
Speaker 1: so that's great.
1:56
Speaker 4: Yeah. I actually was speaking with her this morning as well,
1:59
Speaker 4: probably before you could talk.
2:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's great.
2:03
Speaker 1: And I have to say, while I was diving into
2:06
Speaker 1: kind of the questions I wanted to ask you here,
2:09
Speaker 1: I discovered that you were a triathlete and that you're
2:12
Speaker 1: a cyclist.
2:14
Speaker 4: Yes. Well, I have to preface it. I was active
2:17
Speaker 4: in that space for quite a long time, but when
2:21
Speaker 4: we started having children is when that sort of changed
2:24
Speaker 4: for me. When the time commitment that I was trying
2:26
Speaker 4: to put into that wasn't my priority anymore. So yes,
2:30
Speaker 4: I love it. We still work with a lot with
2:32
Speaker 4: endurance athletes. I did pretty decent stuff like up to
2:36
Speaker 4: like a half iron man distance in trathon, wasn't winning anything,
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Speaker 4: but had a great time for a decade training and
2:43
Speaker 4: racing and all that.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's awesome me too. I stopped.
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Speaker 1: I only did seventy point three, but I stopped twenty nineteen,
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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, and that was my last one. Didn't know
2:58
Speaker 1: what at the time, but that was my last one.
3:00
Speaker 1: And now I just ride my bike, so I much
3:04
Speaker 1: prefer to cycle, and I go to Europe once once
3:07
Speaker 1: a year to kind of ride there. And there's the
3:11
Speaker 1: only sport that I can do NonStop and not ever
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Speaker 1: get tired of.
3:15
Speaker 4: So that's great, and finding that one thing is so
3:18
Speaker 4: so useful.
3:19
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, Well, we're going to dive right in because
3:22
Speaker 1: I'm dying to get your take on. First of all,
3:27
Speaker 1: let's start with pre sleep feeding for females. And I
3:31
Speaker 1: have to say I have never my mind is completely
3:34
Speaker 1: blown on this because in every course that I've ever done,
3:39
Speaker 1: we've always been like, Nope, circadian rhythm, donat you know,
3:42
Speaker 1: two to three hours before bed, and then all of
3:46
Speaker 1: a sudden, now I'm completely changing my mind. So let's
3:49
Speaker 1: start there and just tell me what your research has
3:52
Speaker 1: shown on this and what your thoughts are.
3:54
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great story, because you're right, there's a
3:57
Speaker 4: lot of confusing things about the message, and just like
4:01
Speaker 4: most of these things, the nuances really matter, and what
4:05
Speaker 4: you would ask someone to do would really depend on
4:08
Speaker 4: what their goal is and how they even define eating
4:11
Speaker 4: before bed. And so let's sort of back up. I was,
4:15
Speaker 4: I remember it was like two thousand and eight, nine
4:17
Speaker 4: and ten, and I was trying to get like a
4:20
Speaker 4: niche topic to sort of dive into. And you know,
4:23
Speaker 4: I was coming off competing as an athlete in college
4:27
Speaker 4: as an ice hockey player, and then getting into trathon,
4:29
Speaker 4: and I had a lot of friends who were in
4:31
Speaker 4: that space, but also in like the bodybuilding world and
4:33
Speaker 4: the figure world and all these different athletes, and every
4:37
Speaker 4: one of those athletes ate at night, and they all
4:39
Speaker 4: ate before bed. Late at night. They're having eggs or
4:43
Speaker 4: cottage cheese or a protein shake or maybe some fruit
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Speaker 4: with it, something that was reasonable. It wasn't in all
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Speaker 4: out like fast food go or pizza or ice cream
4:53
Speaker 4: at that time, but it was food to fuel for
4:55
Speaker 4: the next day. And so right about that same time,
4:58
Speaker 4: the Biggest Loser was on tea and I remember hearing
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Speaker 4: all the trainers on that saying, you know, don't eat
5:03
Speaker 4: after six or seven pm. There are these cutoff times
5:05
Speaker 4: and so that was sort of my first dive into
5:09
Speaker 4: it was around twenty ten to twenty twelve. We did
5:11
Speaker 4: a very first study in that space, and we're like,
5:14
Speaker 4: you know what, let's just see what's going on. Why
5:16
Speaker 4: why can't we eat at that time? What is the problem?
5:20
Speaker 4: And so we took a stance of like an applied
5:22
Speaker 4: research laboratory metabolic aspects of pre sleep feeding and exactly
5:27
Speaker 4: sort of like what was tolerable and we wanted to
5:31
Speaker 4: know good or bad, Like I'd like to know for myself,
5:33
Speaker 4: was it a good thing to eat these things? Or
5:35
Speaker 4: was it bad? And so in that context of smaller
5:39
Speaker 4: protein centric type meals or snacks, looking at you know,
5:44
Speaker 4: probably less than three hundred calories, a lot of the
5:46
Speaker 4: work is right around two fifty or even just shy
5:48
Speaker 4: of that of a protein dominant food looks like it
5:52
Speaker 4: was actually either doing nothing or was a benefit to
5:56
Speaker 4: certain markers. And so the story there is actually pretty
6:00
Speaker 4: pretty neat. So our lab and one of the lab
6:03
Speaker 4: overseas was doing this and they were looking at muscle metabolism,
6:06
Speaker 4: we were looking at fat metabolism and what and so
6:09
Speaker 4: we've sort of paired all these topics together and like,
6:13
Speaker 4: let me ask you this, Hailey, like when you think
6:14
Speaker 4: of pre sleep feeding, what time are you thinking of
6:16
Speaker 4: when you think about eating it? And are you thinking
6:18
Speaker 4: about your largest meal? And there's the confusion like is
6:22
Speaker 4: it dinner where it's like a large mixed macronutrient meal, carbs, fats, proteins,
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Speaker 4: the whole thing and it's five six eight hundred, nine
6:29
Speaker 4: hundred calories and it's one bowlus with that definition, there
6:34
Speaker 4: probably is not a great reason to eat that before bed,
6:37
Speaker 4: like right before bed, and then how long after that
6:40
Speaker 4: meal before you go to sleep? And so we have
6:43
Speaker 4: a very strict definition of it. It's two hours after
6:46
Speaker 4: dinner and within thirty minutes of going to bed is
6:49
Speaker 4: how we define pre sleep feeding with these protein dominant foods.
6:54
Speaker 4: And that's we focused on protein because way of a
6:56
Speaker 4: big interest in protein, but also it was like what
6:59
Speaker 4: people were doing. We wanted to see what was actually
7:02
Speaker 4: happening in these more athletic contexts to people who were
7:05
Speaker 4: interested in health and performance and competing again the next day.
7:09
Speaker 4: So with that definition, it changes it right like Hayley, like,
7:14
Speaker 4: let's say you work out at night, you work all
7:16
Speaker 4: day long, you're working, mom, you finish work, you get
7:19
Speaker 4: your kids to bed, and then that's your only time.
7:21
Speaker 4: And you're so dedicated that you say eight to nine pm,
7:24
Speaker 4: nine to ten pm is the only time I have.
7:26
Speaker 4: I'm going to do it then. And let's say you
7:28
Speaker 4: exhaust yourself and you really put in a good effort
7:31
Speaker 4: at that workout. If you then want to also, say
7:35
Speaker 4: compete in your race, your cycling race the next morning,
7:39
Speaker 4: or another really good effort tomorrow, you better eat because
7:43
Speaker 4: you need to restock those fuel sources in order to
7:46
Speaker 4: compete well. And if you think about outside of like
7:48
Speaker 4: the individual sport athletes, if you're in a team setting
7:52
Speaker 4: and you have doubles in its summertime and you're trying
7:55
Speaker 4: to you know, compete hard to every day for like
7:58
Speaker 4: a camp scenario or something like that, then you'd better
8:02
Speaker 4: be eating at night. And so sometimes it's not even
8:04
Speaker 4: is it good or bad, it's like this is required.
8:07
Speaker 4: You have to do this to compete. Here's a good example.
8:11
Speaker 4: We were really fortunate to do work with a race
8:14
Speaker 4: called the Florida Ultraman. Have you ever heard of this race?
8:17
Speaker 3: It's a not that one, but I'm familiar with.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, So the oilier man's insane, right, They're so long,
8:23
Speaker 4: they're really really long races, and the athletes are awesome,
8:26
Speaker 4: and we had a great relationship with the Florida Ultraman
8:29
Speaker 4: race director, so we got access to the athletes. And
8:32
Speaker 4: it's a three day triathlon and the time stops at
8:36
Speaker 4: the end of each day, So like the faster you
8:38
Speaker 4: finish on Friday, you have more time to eat, recover,
8:42
Speaker 4: do what you need before you go to bed and
8:43
Speaker 4: wake up super early the next day. But if you're
8:46
Speaker 4: finishing in the evening and you're not a fast finisher,
8:49
Speaker 4: but you're going to finish, you're finishing and it's dark out,
8:53
Speaker 4: and then you have to get up at five in
8:54
Speaker 4: the morning to do it again, and you you actually ride, run,
8:57
Speaker 4: or swim all day long for three days straight. And
9:00
Speaker 4: in that scenario, if you get off your bike and
9:02
Speaker 4: used to eating gels and drinking you know, liquid cover,
9:06
Speaker 4: hydrates and proteins, and then you try to go to
9:08
Speaker 4: bed and do it again, you will not make it
9:10
Speaker 4: to the finish line. And so that's what I always
9:13
Speaker 4: mean by nuance. And so even the bigger companies that
9:16
Speaker 4: you might see on social media that often are saying
9:20
Speaker 4: we've got white paper evidence showing that heart variability is
9:23
Speaker 4: disrupted and your sleep is disrupted. The nuance isn't there.
9:27
Speaker 4: So I always, as you know, much as I know
9:30
Speaker 4: I shouldn't do it, I always try to comment and
9:32
Speaker 4: say it for who and in what setting? And are
9:36
Speaker 4: you working out in the evening? Are you perhaps you're
9:40
Speaker 4: an athlete that's struggling with energy availability, and in that sense,
9:43
Speaker 4: using that night time slot to get one more feeding
9:46
Speaker 4: is a good idea just to get total energy up
9:48
Speaker 4: for that particular person. So there are so many nuances
9:52
Speaker 4: to it, and so there is where I'm commenting, like,
9:54
Speaker 4: you know, for who, what scenario? Are you an athlete?
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Speaker 4: Are you competing again tomorrow? And what's your ultimate the
10:00
Speaker 4: goal at the end of all this stuff. So there's
10:02
Speaker 4: sort of the nutshell of it. I'm happy to go
10:04
Speaker 4: through the nuances, but I figured i'd lay it up
10:07
Speaker 4: with that sort of a background.
10:09
Speaker 1: No, that's great because I think for me specifically in
10:11
Speaker 1: these groups, I'm always trying to teach alongside my experts
10:14
Speaker 1: to fuel for the demands of the training session. And
10:18
Speaker 1: whatever that training session is, we know that we need
10:20
Speaker 1: more carbohydrate for potentially a really hard hit session or
10:24
Speaker 1: really hard strengths training session, but maybe not as much
10:27
Speaker 1: for if you're going for a walk the next day
10:29
Speaker 1: or whatever. And I only work with middle aged women,
10:33
Speaker 1: so women pretty much in this pery slash post menopause space,
10:37
Speaker 1: which is getting a lot of chatter if you haven't noticed.
10:43
Speaker 4: No, I noticed. Yeah that's great, it's it's phenomenal.
10:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, good and bad. But here is where the science.
10:51
Speaker 1: I'm super intrigued with any expert to kind of break
10:55
Speaker 1: up your take on if this population. So if you
11:00
Speaker 1: that you just said, now, if we're taking a you know,
11:03
Speaker 1: middle aged woman that already has most women are time crunched.
11:09
Speaker 1: They're probably not recovering well or sleeping great in this
11:12
Speaker 1: perimental pauzzle space. So you already have these these things
11:16
Speaker 1: going against you, even if you are healthy and eating
11:19
Speaker 1: well and blah blah blah. But for someone that isn't
11:23
Speaker 1: really competing and is just wanting to get up the
11:26
Speaker 1: next day and say, Hayley, tell me what to do
11:28
Speaker 1: in the weights room, does this matter as much or
11:32
Speaker 1: is it kind of negligible? Of well, are you hungry
11:35
Speaker 1: a little bit before bed? What time did you eat dinner?
11:37
Speaker 1: I mean I go to bed early, so for me,
11:41
Speaker 1: I like to be tucked in by eight point fifty nine.
11:46
Speaker 4: Nice.
11:47
Speaker 3: Does it always work? It doesn't always work.
11:50
Speaker 1: But now that my two teenagers are out of the
11:52
Speaker 1: house and I only have one.
11:53
Speaker 3: At home, it makes a little bit easier.
11:55
Speaker 1: But in that situation, does that matter for not looking
12:00
Speaker 1: at performance?
12:03
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say it almost matters more. And so
12:06
Speaker 4: and here's why if you're in that scenario, which just
12:09
Speaker 4: sounds like everybody who's listening to this is we still
12:14
Speaker 4: have a trouble meeting our total daily protein needs. It's
12:17
Speaker 4: just it is. It is hard to hit those sometimes
12:20
Speaker 4: even if you have the best laid plan. And what
12:22
Speaker 4: we're finding is that it's probably not magic of eating
12:25
Speaker 4: at protein before bed. It's the magic of having one
12:29
Speaker 4: more feeding time to get your total daily protein intake
12:32
Speaker 4: to a level that you want it to be at
12:35
Speaker 4: for all the other benefits that that brings, and you
12:38
Speaker 4: do not have to be worried about it adding fat
12:40
Speaker 4: mass and I can show the data to we can
12:43
Speaker 4: talk through the data on that, and so psychologically it
12:46
Speaker 4: allows you the freedom as someone who is in that space,
12:49
Speaker 4: super crunched on time, you didn't get the protein and
12:52
Speaker 4: you needed your kids are whining and complaining and you
12:55
Speaker 4: need to, you know, figure out life and then guess what,
12:59
Speaker 4: You've got one more chance to top off your protein stores.
13:03
Speaker 4: In this particular scenario, it's easy because you're already at
13:07
Speaker 4: home and you have access to those foods. It's hopefully
13:10
Speaker 4: a quiet time when you're trying to do your destress
13:13
Speaker 4: and start your bedtime routine perhaps, and you don't have
13:16
Speaker 4: to worry about any of the issues that people are
13:19
Speaker 4: afraid of with adding fat or fat gain or any
13:21
Speaker 4: of it. When we make the caveat of small protein
13:26
Speaker 4: centric meals. And so here's the example. We have a
13:30
Speaker 4: technique in our lab Helly, it's really cool. It's called microdialysis.
13:34
Speaker 4: And with microdialysis, we can insert these very small probes
13:38
Speaker 4: into any tissue that we want. Think of it almost
13:42
Speaker 4: like a belly piercing. So we pinch a layer of
13:44
Speaker 4: skin and your abdominal belly fat, for example, and we
13:47
Speaker 4: put a small needle into that tissue. Remove the needle
13:52
Speaker 4: and we leave this flexible probe underneath the skin, and
13:55
Speaker 4: in that probe I can end up measuring what's coming
13:58
Speaker 4: out of your fat cells in any condition. Can be sleeping,
14:00
Speaker 4: it can be exercised, it can be whatever sort of
14:04
Speaker 4: stimulus we give to the body, could be eating. And
14:08
Speaker 4: when we've done this, we've done this in men and
14:10
Speaker 4: in women, and in both cases we don't see any
14:13
Speaker 4: change in overnight fat coming out of the fat cell,
14:17
Speaker 4: which would be called lipolysis. And so with like polysis
14:20
Speaker 4: staying no different than a place ebo, we know that
14:24
Speaker 4: it's not changing insulin enough or any of the hormones
14:29
Speaker 4: really to have an effect that's dampening or lowering the
14:33
Speaker 4: fat metabolism response. It all stays elevated, no matter if
14:36
Speaker 4: you have nothing or if you have this protein drink.
14:39
Speaker 4: And so if the net gain is nothing, but you're
14:42
Speaker 4: having the advantage of a more protein in your day,
14:45
Speaker 4: it's a win. It's a win across the board. And
14:48
Speaker 4: so that's to me, would be for this what your
14:51
Speaker 4: question was, like these very busy forty plus year old
14:55
Speaker 4: women who've got lives and children and trying to do
14:59
Speaker 4: everything for everybody. Probably this is a time when you
15:02
Speaker 4: can say, hey, this times for me. I've got I
15:05
Speaker 4: can have a shake, I can have a little bit
15:07
Speaker 4: of cottage cheese or yogurt. Now, not all of those
15:09
Speaker 4: foods have been tested, but my suspicion is that all
15:13
Speaker 4: of those protein centric foods would be really good options
15:17
Speaker 4: for this particular example.
15:19
Speaker 3: Oh, I did it last night.
15:20
Speaker 1: I tested the theory because I have been so busy
15:25
Speaker 1: the last few weeks that I'm just I'm barely I
15:28
Speaker 1: mean usually I'm pretty good and pretty routine eat the
15:31
Speaker 1: same things, roughly the same foods, but I've just been
15:35
Speaker 1: running on empty and so these late time kind of
15:39
Speaker 1: meal snacks, and.
15:40
Speaker 3: I think that's the difference.
15:41
Speaker 1: So if you're saying, if we look at sleep architecture,
15:45
Speaker 1: then when we hear about like heavy food, like food
15:49
Speaker 1: sitting in the belly and not digesting and we want
15:51
Speaker 1: that all digested before ideally we go to sleep, or
15:55
Speaker 1: where the sleep hygiene conversation comes in, then this really
15:59
Speaker 1: is just like it is what you said, a snack
16:02
Speaker 1: of protein. It's not having, you know, a glass of
16:04
Speaker 1: wine before bed. All of these things that we know
16:06
Speaker 1: will hinder sleep architect like the sleep efficiency. So I
16:12
Speaker 1: think that could be really helpful, especially for women that
16:15
Speaker 1: aren't as afraid that it's gonna make them fat, but
16:18
Speaker 1: they're they're on limited calories because most of the time
16:21
Speaker 1: they're coming to me for body composition help, and so
16:25
Speaker 1: you know that window is how do you get us
16:27
Speaker 1: all of this protein in, which then takes me to
16:30
Speaker 1: my next question of intermittent fasting. All right, let's take
16:34
Speaker 1: a quick break to hear from some of the body
16:36
Speaker 1: pod sponsors.
16:38
Speaker 3: We'll be right back. This is a huge.
16:49
Speaker 1: Conversation in the mental puzzle space of do we fast
16:53
Speaker 1: do we not? Usually the answer, I'm curious your opinion
16:57
Speaker 1: is is it depends which, which you know makes it
17:01
Speaker 1: hard because everyone wants a specific answer for everyone and
17:05
Speaker 1: that's really hard to do.
17:07
Speaker 3: But what are your thoughts on that?
17:09
Speaker 1: Because for me, it shortens the protein feeding window if
17:13
Speaker 1: we're just looking at hitting protein overall.
17:16
Speaker 4: Yeah, so kind of two things to close out or
17:19
Speaker 4: maybe part of that other conversation. I think it's important
17:22
Speaker 4: too that people understand that what I'm referring to in
17:26
Speaker 4: all of these our research studies with many people, and
17:29
Speaker 4: if you know that anytime you eat anything you don't
17:32
Speaker 4: sleep well, then that's true for you and you need
17:34
Speaker 4: to pay attention to that. So even if the literature
17:37
Speaker 4: says one thing, you need to know how you respond
17:39
Speaker 4: to it. So I love how you said you experimented
17:41
Speaker 4: with it last night, and that's what really matters when
17:44
Speaker 4: it comes down to it, is how do you respond
17:46
Speaker 4: to it. So I think that's an important piece to this.
17:50
Speaker 4: And one of the other things we didn't go into
17:52
Speaker 4: too much detail in that space was like the outcome
17:55
Speaker 4: measures and so outside of fat metabolism, So we see
17:59
Speaker 4: that there's either no change or an increase in morning
18:02
Speaker 4: resting metabolism, which means that you've been sort of revving
18:05
Speaker 4: just a little bit higher all night from some of
18:07
Speaker 4: these protein centric drinks. So that potentially could be helpful
18:11
Speaker 4: if you expanded that over a long period of time.
18:14
Speaker 4: So that's sort of one. It's also important to know
18:17
Speaker 4: that if you're new to exercise or you've never done
18:20
Speaker 4: it and you're just starting. And in our study, which
18:23
Speaker 4: was in women in this category, we gave them the
18:27
Speaker 4: pre sleep feeding and it didn't actually help much or
18:31
Speaker 4: at all with like glascemic control even with the protein drinks,
18:35
Speaker 4: so small changes and like insulin sensitivity and blood glucose
18:39
Speaker 4: which were not going the direction you would want, Okay,
18:42
Speaker 4: So that made me thinking, oh, maybe we shouldn't do
18:43
Speaker 4: it for people who are sedentary, and so we decided
18:46
Speaker 4: to use that same group and add exercise, and so
18:48
Speaker 4: just four weeks of including just three days of exercise
18:51
Speaker 4: and pre sleep feeding in this overweight to some of
18:55
Speaker 4: the women had obesity middle aged group, if they added
19:00
Speaker 4: exercise and did the pre sleep feeding, absolutely abolished any
19:04
Speaker 4: metabolic problems. And so the exercise is such a sledgehammer
19:08
Speaker 4: in driving our metabolic responses to things that that pre
19:11
Speaker 4: sleep feeding then was ended up being either the advantage
19:14
Speaker 4: or no change while the exercise needed to be in there.
19:17
Speaker 4: So if you're someone who's sedentary and just adding in
19:21
Speaker 4: pre sleep feeding, then I think you would need to
19:23
Speaker 4: watch blood gluecose levels. Again, not many studies in that
19:26
Speaker 4: exact space, but from the one or two that exists,
19:29
Speaker 4: I would say be cautious with that approach. So just
19:33
Speaker 4: you know, make sure it's not all everything's positive. There
19:35
Speaker 4: are pluses and minuses to anything that's chosen. And then
19:39
Speaker 4: some of your clients and people who are interested, maybe
19:42
Speaker 4: they do train hard in their they are elite at
19:45
Speaker 4: their age or their age group athletes or something that's
19:48
Speaker 4: where this could be interesting, and that there are data
19:51
Speaker 4: showing that after an evening battle of exercises was soccer
19:55
Speaker 4: if you had pre sleep protein. It actually had things
19:59
Speaker 4: like reactive strength indres and counter movement jump were able
20:03
Speaker 4: to come back to normal faster after a hard game.
20:06
Speaker 4: So theoretically you could compete more or better or maybe
20:10
Speaker 4: just a little bit harder each time you do compete.
20:13
Speaker 4: Because that lasted for three days, the benefit was higher
20:15
Speaker 4: for performance for roughly three days, So that's there. And
20:19
Speaker 4: then there's also an advantage to muscle protein synthesis. So
20:23
Speaker 4: the other group I was talking about overseas that runs
20:25
Speaker 4: this as Luke van Luin and his group, and they've
20:28
Speaker 4: found in a ton of different studies that it actually
20:31
Speaker 4: increases muscle protein synthesis while you're sleeping with a small
20:34
Speaker 4: protein dominant snack in their hands. They actually have seen
20:40
Speaker 4: over twelve weeks of training with this strategy, where again
20:44
Speaker 4: it was used to increase total daily protein. They just
20:46
Speaker 4: took it before bed. They had better outcomes for like
20:48
Speaker 4: cross sectional area, muscle strength, all the things that you
20:52
Speaker 4: might be looking for for a trained individual who's like
20:54
Speaker 4: a gym goer wanting to add muscle to their frame.
20:58
Speaker 4: So a little more context there with what outcomes people
21:01
Speaker 4: are finding, and again it's a little bit mixed, but
21:03
Speaker 4: what I'm telling you is like the summary of the
21:05
Speaker 4: good points, and that's where you would use this strategy.
21:08
Speaker 3: Where have you been for the last three years?
21:13
Speaker 4: So, Haley, I think it's exciting. I think it's a
21:15
Speaker 4: neat place. But again it's end of one. And that
21:17
Speaker 4: brings me back to your original question, which was intermittent fasting.
21:20
Speaker 4: Now intermittent fasting. As you said, you probably have five experts.
21:24
Speaker 4: They all say something different, or at least it's it's
21:28
Speaker 4: confusing enough to say it depends, and I'm not going
21:31
Speaker 4: to help you out all there. It is still depends.
21:32
Speaker 4: But I'll tell you this from my experience working with
21:35
Speaker 4: lots of different people in research, studies and even in coaching.
21:39
Speaker 4: It's a great tool. It's a fantastic tool if you'd
21:42
Speaker 4: like to intermitt fast. And so I never pushed someone
21:45
Speaker 4: away from it if they like it. Some people have
21:47
Speaker 4: lifestyles where it really just suits them to wake up
21:49
Speaker 4: and not eat for a while, and some people don't.
21:51
Speaker 4: You wake up and you're starving, and so for me,
21:54
Speaker 4: I always push, like, follow what's natural to you and
21:58
Speaker 4: then just make the best choices with So we have
22:01
Speaker 4: folks who have used inerminent fasting, absolutely love it. It
22:03
Speaker 4: shortens the eating window, can control calories, and as you
22:07
Speaker 4: probably know all the data like if you just choose
22:10
Speaker 4: to do a slightly clerk restricted and eat all day
22:14
Speaker 4: at the end of a longer period of time, you
22:15
Speaker 4: tend to have very similar outcomes. So it's a great tool.
22:19
Speaker 4: If you like it, use it. If you don't like it,
22:21
Speaker 4: don't use it. But it certainly is something that would
22:25
Speaker 4: that would work with this protein feeding that I'm talking about.
22:28
Speaker 4: Depending on where you weigh, where you decide to bracket
22:31
Speaker 4: your start and end time with eating. And so if
22:34
Speaker 4: you if you bracket that in the morning, clearly you
22:36
Speaker 4: wouldn't be having that at night. If you bracket that
22:39
Speaker 4: in the middle of the day, or you stop around
22:40
Speaker 4: eight pm, like twelve to eight for example, again you
22:43
Speaker 4: wouldn't have something later. But I will tell you this.
22:46
Speaker 4: I read a lot of studies that talk about fasting
22:48
Speaker 4: or inter minute fasting, and then you read the details
22:50
Speaker 4: and it's like, oh, but we allow an essential amino
22:52
Speaker 4: acid drink. Oh but we allow a protein drink. And
22:56
Speaker 4: so it's like, is it really fasting or is it not?
22:59
Speaker 4: And so so even if the title says intermitten fasting,
23:02
Speaker 4: there are several different times I've looked through it and
23:04
Speaker 4: it's like it's fasting. But we do allow tea, we
23:08
Speaker 4: do allow you know, things that have small amount of calories.
23:12
Speaker 4: We do allow an essential meno acid drink just to
23:14
Speaker 4: maintain you know, amino acid levels in the system. So
23:18
Speaker 4: you have to look at that quite quite a sort
23:21
Speaker 4: of a nuanced lens. But for me, everything is possible
23:25
Speaker 4: to be a benefit, but it has to fit your
23:26
Speaker 4: lifestyle because if you can't stick to it, it's never
23:29
Speaker 4: going to work.
23:30
Speaker 1: Okay, that's the mic drop right there, because this is
23:34
Speaker 1: while I think the the Internet in this day and
23:39
Speaker 1: age is so amazing, it's information overload. And then you
23:44
Speaker 1: get these you know, niche populations. Well for you know,
23:49
Speaker 1: this specific population of women that say I'm working with
23:52
Speaker 1: and then they hear, you know, well I can't do this,
23:55
Speaker 1: now I should do this, Now, I shouldn't do this,
23:56
Speaker 1: now I should do this. And it's this back and
23:59
Speaker 1: forth game with each you know, new article that comes
24:02
Speaker 1: out and then women come to me and they're like,
24:06
Speaker 1: just tell me what to do, tell me exactly what
24:09
Speaker 1: to eat, and tell me what exercise to do, and
24:11
Speaker 1: I'll do it to a team. I'm really good at
24:13
Speaker 1: following through. And it's never that simple because we're all
24:19
Speaker 1: unique and individual. And while there are some do you
24:22
Speaker 1: see some from your perspective, if we're looking at this,
24:26
Speaker 1: what are the overarching themes that we really have to
24:29
Speaker 1: nail besides the nuances of whether you're going to intermittent
24:33
Speaker 1: fast or whatever.
24:35
Speaker 3: In the nutrition and fitness space, yeah.
24:38
Speaker 4: I mean everyone's going to talk about which leverage to
24:40
Speaker 4: pull and what's you know, or you hear some conversations about,
24:44
Speaker 4: you know, stepping over dollars to pick up pennies, and
24:46
Speaker 4: that's where the nuance is crazy, Like you probably have
24:49
Speaker 4: had these discussions like I don't know about you, but
24:51
Speaker 4: I don't have time to always you know, to do
24:54
Speaker 4: everything perfectly to get two training sessions of cold bath,
24:57
Speaker 4: look at the sun, you know, do all the different things,
25:01
Speaker 4: and so you have to choose with the busy lifestyle
25:03
Speaker 4: one are the biggest things and this to me, you
25:05
Speaker 4: can really get that into three spaces exercise, nutrition, and sleep.
25:09
Speaker 4: And if those big rocks are under control, the little
25:14
Speaker 4: other pebbles that fall out are much easier to manage.
25:18
Speaker 4: Or you just aren't in a situation where you're trying
25:21
Speaker 4: to be on stage or compete, and a thing you
25:24
Speaker 4: just want to have a lifestyle where you feel pretty
25:26
Speaker 4: good you can handle your lifestyle with your spouse and
25:29
Speaker 4: your kids. And in that sense, those three big items
25:33
Speaker 4: are exactly where I'd be landing. And then I might
25:36
Speaker 4: think about, all right, nutrition is pretty well dialed in,
25:39
Speaker 4: but I don't really like eating in the morning, So
25:41
Speaker 4: maybe intermitt fasting is something that I would try. And
25:44
Speaker 4: you know, I wouldn't even get there until I had
25:45
Speaker 4: the basics lined up for those other areas. And Haley,
25:49
Speaker 4: I agree with you. Like people all the time, they're like,
25:51
Speaker 4: I don't get it. I was told to not eat
25:53
Speaker 4: before bed. I was told to eat before bed, and
25:56
Speaker 4: so I think it can be far easier than that.
25:59
Speaker 4: And I I think it's a step wiser proch Like
26:02
Speaker 4: what's the simplest possible thing you can change today that
26:05
Speaker 4: you barely even notice it in your lifestyle that would
26:09
Speaker 4: then add up over time to be a big impact. So,
26:11
Speaker 4: for example, one of the courses that I have online
26:14
Speaker 4: it we finish it with these small steps, and it's
26:16
Speaker 4: like every chapter in that book is where do you finish?
26:19
Speaker 4: And what's one action item you can take today. Maybe
26:22
Speaker 4: it's increasing your approaching and take just a little bit
26:24
Speaker 4: and that's all you do for like four weeks to
26:26
Speaker 4: dial in that habit. Or maybe it's something like, you
26:29
Speaker 4: know your vitamin D is super low and so you
26:31
Speaker 4: take a vitamin supplement and that's the only thing we
26:34
Speaker 4: ask you to change. And your clients might be like,
26:36
Speaker 4: what in the world I'm paying you to do this?
26:38
Speaker 4: And then it's like, yeah, but if you stick with me,
26:41
Speaker 4: this is the key is getting all of these big
26:43
Speaker 4: ticket items where it's so routine you stop thinking about it.
26:47
Speaker 4: And so for me, those are those are the big
26:49
Speaker 4: the bigger sort of levers that I can pull in
26:54
Speaker 4: order to sort of set my boundary, set my baseline
26:57
Speaker 4: for where I can eventually get to you. I always
27:00
Speaker 4: know I can fall back on these three things exercise, nutrition,
27:03
Speaker 4: and sleep.
27:04
Speaker 1: So true, and this is what I have with with
27:06
Speaker 1: some of my you know, high profile clients that are
27:10
Speaker 1: that are you know, running companies or what are They
27:13
Speaker 1: don't I don't have They don't have time for me
27:14
Speaker 1: to micromanage them at all. I mean, and really I'm
27:18
Speaker 1: just like, okay, do if we do the basics, it
27:20
Speaker 1: doesn't the nuances that come from again, like you said,
27:25
Speaker 1: eating before or eating after, or you know, doing this
27:29
Speaker 1: kind of cardio versus this kind of cardio. At the
27:31
Speaker 1: end of the day, are you doing something resistance training?
27:34
Speaker 1: Are you sleeping well, recovering well? And are is your
27:38
Speaker 1: nutrition pretty on point about it?
27:41
Speaker 4: No doubt about it? Worry it's so boring. Do you
27:45
Speaker 4: know what the name of that course is. It's called
27:47
Speaker 4: Changing Body Composition through Diet and Exercise. So nobody wants
27:50
Speaker 4: to click on it, but it is. It's just like
27:53
Speaker 4: hearing me in a lecture and I'm going through lecture
27:55
Speaker 4: by lecture, what do these things actually mean? And it's
27:57
Speaker 4: just a science, you know. We end with like these
28:00
Speaker 4: are the tools. Hopefully now you have the ability to
28:03
Speaker 4: use those tools as you want. And I think you
28:05
Speaker 4: know you mentioned resistance training and that's such a critical
28:08
Speaker 4: piece to this and I think I think it's the part.
28:12
Speaker 4: And I know you have other guests to kind of
28:14
Speaker 4: go through these things, but that piece is so critical.
28:17
Speaker 4: We always say, like, if you want to be a
28:19
Speaker 4: smaller pair, then just do the slow aerobic exercise. You'll
28:24
Speaker 4: be a smaller pair, but you won't actually change the
28:26
Speaker 4: way that pair looks. Then you have to add in
28:28
Speaker 4: the resistance training to sort of sculpt out what that
28:31
Speaker 4: will eventually look like. And so one of the studies
28:34
Speaker 4: we're running right now might be of interest. It's specifically
28:36
Speaker 4: in postment appalls of women, and these are women that
28:39
Speaker 4: are also pre diabetic and either overweight or have obesity,
28:44
Speaker 4: and we are directly, directly for the first time, comparing
28:49
Speaker 4: aerobic exercise to resistance exercise on outcomes of fat metabolism.
28:54
Speaker 4: And this is a five year study we've been running now.
28:57
Speaker 3: Haley, Okay, do tell.
28:59
Speaker 4: It's it's phenomenal. And so these women are awesome, They
29:04
Speaker 4: really want help. They come to us because of that,
29:07
Speaker 4: and they get training for twelve weeks and they get
29:09
Speaker 4: it's either straight aerobic training or straight resistance training. And
29:13
Speaker 4: in most of the research you probably have seen to date,
29:17
Speaker 4: it's aerobic heavy. It's switching now like a little more
29:19
Speaker 4: resistance training and women specifically, but a lot of it's
29:22
Speaker 4: aerobic dominant type research for weight and control. And that's
29:26
Speaker 4: because when you compare twenty minutes of running to twenty
29:29
Speaker 4: minutes of weightlifting, your calorie burn is going to be
29:31
Speaker 4: far higher in the running. You just say, you're burning
29:35
Speaker 4: more calories with that. And so there's a couple other
29:39
Speaker 4: studies who have tried to pair these together, but they
29:41
Speaker 4: paired them on time, so you would work out for
29:43
Speaker 4: say forty five minutes in both groups, but the calorie
29:45
Speaker 4: burn was so much higher in one that it really
29:48
Speaker 4: shifted the conversation. And so what we've done is we've
29:51
Speaker 4: instead of matching time, we're matching calorie output. So you
29:55
Speaker 4: exercise to burn a certain number of calories, and so
29:58
Speaker 4: the resistance training group ends up working out longer, but
30:01
Speaker 4: they're burning the same amount of calories as the other group.
30:03
Speaker 4: And so now we're finally to a point where we're
30:06
Speaker 4: getting some data back, and you know, have plenty of
30:08
Speaker 4: things coming out of this lab based on what we're finding.
30:11
Speaker 4: But it's just awesome to watch how the strength training
30:15
Speaker 4: particularly is improving what you would think strength. And then
30:19
Speaker 4: you see the confidence come up. You see all of
30:22
Speaker 4: the ability to sort of handle the stresses that we're
30:24
Speaker 4: thrown at them sort of come up a little bit.
30:27
Speaker 4: And even the aerobic group they're new to exercise, so
30:31
Speaker 4: it's great, but then they all are starting to say,
30:33
Speaker 4: I wish I was doing some resistance train and I
30:35
Speaker 4: can see that group over there. I want I want
30:37
Speaker 4: to join that group. So we have fantastic, awesome participants
30:42
Speaker 4: in a whole team here that that handles the training
30:46
Speaker 4: and all of the outcomes. But we're looking at how
30:48
Speaker 4: how are they utilizing fat, how are they putting on fat?
30:51
Speaker 4: What exactly is going on with microballasis and biopsies and
30:54
Speaker 4: all the science techniques we can throw at them, And
30:57
Speaker 4: so we should have some really good answers here. And
30:59
Speaker 4: the hope is this, Haley, is that at the end
31:03
Speaker 4: of it, that the guidance on what to do is
31:07
Speaker 4: less of anecdote where we know we should be resistance training,
31:13
Speaker 4: and it's more of they put these things head to
31:16
Speaker 4: head and either there was no difference in the fat
31:20
Speaker 4: metabolism piece of it, or there was a greater improvement
31:23
Speaker 4: from being able to resistance train and add these other
31:26
Speaker 4: pieces of weight and strength to it, which you know
31:29
Speaker 4: obviously have like longevity outcomes and other things that are
31:32
Speaker 4: are quite useful for postmenopausal women.
31:35
Speaker 3: I love that. So do you are you measuring and
31:38
Speaker 3: what are your what are.
31:40
Speaker 1: Your thoughts on visceral fat because this is also a
31:42
Speaker 1: big one that changes for women as we kind of
31:45
Speaker 1: go into this menopausal transition, most women notice more abdominal fat.
31:53
Speaker 1: And when we look at visceral fat specifically, the question
31:57
Speaker 1: is always how do I target it.
32:00
Speaker 4: It's usually a multimodal approach. And so there are several
32:04
Speaker 4: studies that we've done in this space looking at visceral
32:06
Speaker 4: fat with resistance training, hit training, aerobic training, usually with
32:11
Speaker 4: a higher protein intake. And a lot of these are
32:14
Speaker 4: in men and women, but all of a middle age,
32:16
Speaker 4: and many of them are perrier, postman apostle, and and
32:20
Speaker 4: so in our work, I don't know if you remember,
32:22
Speaker 4: years ago, there was a program called Body for Life
32:25
Speaker 4: that came out. It was kind of the nineties. Yeah, yeah,
32:29
Speaker 4: So that's when I was starting research in this space.
32:32
Speaker 4: And so a guy named doctor Rcierro had these grants
32:35
Speaker 4: and I was a student in his lab, and we
32:36
Speaker 4: were just starting to figure out what's help with that
32:39
Speaker 4: particular program, because it was really the first time we
32:41
Speaker 4: got a big message to lift weights and add protein.
32:45
Speaker 4: And so we decided to compare that particular program, which
32:49
Speaker 4: was resistance training three days a week and three days
32:53
Speaker 4: a week of high intensity interval training with one day off,
32:56
Speaker 4: so a six day program, and then we compared it
32:58
Speaker 4: to at the time, which was the old Food Guide
33:01
Speaker 4: pyramid back then, and so the Food Guide pyramid, and
33:04
Speaker 4: then it was the basic recommendations that go along with
33:06
Speaker 4: it were increased physical activity five days a week, so
33:10
Speaker 4: it was everybody was exercising, but the one group got
33:14
Speaker 4: resistance training and specifically a higher protein intake that we
33:18
Speaker 4: accomplished through protein shakes and protein bars. So it was
33:21
Speaker 4: primarily through those mechanisms to jack protein up in our hands.
33:26
Speaker 4: We looked at DEXA and we were calculate visceral fat
33:29
Speaker 4: and subcutaneous fat and changes over a twelve week study.
33:33
Speaker 4: And so these women were just awesome gos. They worked
33:37
Speaker 4: so hard and in that time, no matter what you did,
33:40
Speaker 4: starting an exercise program with some dietary instructions was helpful.
33:45
Speaker 4: So everybody lost weight, everybody lost body fat, everybody gained
33:49
Speaker 4: a little bit of muscle mass. But there are proally
33:52
Speaker 4: probably two giant things I learned from that. The resistance
33:57
Speaker 4: training and the protein in that group led to far
34:01
Speaker 4: greater more significant changes in reductions in belly fat and
34:06
Speaker 4: visceral fat than not including a higher protein diet and
34:10
Speaker 4: not including resistance training, so by far to attack that
34:14
Speaker 4: visceral tissue, at least in the studies that we've run,
34:16
Speaker 4: it's got to be a combination of something with resistance
34:19
Speaker 4: training and a much higher protein intake than many women
34:24
Speaker 4: are many people in general are typically eating when they're
34:27
Speaker 4: starting out on these types of programs, So that was
34:29
Speaker 4: really really critical to us. The other part was that
34:33
Speaker 4: the women in that study were, for better or worse,
34:37
Speaker 4: they were so awesome, but they were so stuck on
34:40
Speaker 4: the body weight number as compared to the body composition number.
34:45
Speaker 4: And so I remember talking to at least three of
34:48
Speaker 4: those subjects that wanted to basically escape from the study
34:54
Speaker 4: because their body weight had not shifted enough for what
34:58
Speaker 4: they thought should be happening in a twelve each study.
35:01
Speaker 4: But then I show them the decks of data and
35:03
Speaker 4: we see a giant drop in body fat and visceral
35:07
Speaker 4: fat and in an increase in muscle mass. And I
35:12
Speaker 4: was hoping that would push them over the edge to say, okay, no, no, no,
35:15
Speaker 4: this the composition is critical to this piece of it.
35:19
Speaker 4: But we have to get out of our own way sometimes, Hayley,
35:21
Speaker 4: there's such a stigma on body weight and it has
35:24
Speaker 4: got to shift a body composition because we're doing ourselves
35:27
Speaker 4: no favors by sticking in this weight only and just
35:31
Speaker 4: losing muscle mass in some of these programs that exist
35:34
Speaker 4: when you don't account with resistance training and a higher
35:36
Speaker 4: approach and intake.
35:38
Speaker 1: Were these women and men in a calorie deficit or
35:42
Speaker 1: were you just having them resistance train over the top pressure.
35:47
Speaker 4: It depends on the study. The one I'm referring to
35:49
Speaker 4: was not. It was they met with a dietician weekly
35:53
Speaker 4: to keep them at their target calories, which was based
35:57
Speaker 4: on keeping them even so, it was based we had
36:00
Speaker 4: did resting metabolic rate in their activity factors to keep
36:02
Speaker 4: them in a certain small range of coloric intake, and
36:06
Speaker 4: then we just manipulated the protein side of it and
36:08
Speaker 4: the exercise side so that the calories were equated, so
36:11
Speaker 4: in that particular study was over and above. So protein
36:15
Speaker 4: itself is pretty pretty unique. We have done so much
36:18
Speaker 4: work with not just a pre sleep protein but just
36:21
Speaker 4: daily protein changes, and in every single every single paper
36:25
Speaker 4: that I put out on it or looked at or
36:27
Speaker 4: been associated with, if you're in a situation where you're
36:31
Speaker 4: an athlete should have high approaching, if you're in a
36:33
Speaker 4: situation where you're trying to recover more, probably should have
36:36
Speaker 4: higher ap protein. If you're in a situation where you
36:39
Speaker 4: want to be losing belly fat, you should probably have
36:42
Speaker 4: more approtein. If you're in a situation where you're trying
36:44
Speaker 4: to lose weight. In general, I would also increase protein.
36:47
Speaker 4: And so I get a lot of questions around, well,
36:49
Speaker 4: in this situation, that situation, would you increase it decrease?
36:52
Speaker 4: And like in every one of those situations, I would
36:55
Speaker 4: lock in and dial in protein at the level that
36:58
Speaker 4: we want and then manipulate the other manutrients around that
37:01
Speaker 4: based on your exercise output.
37:04
Speaker 1: So we can then, just to confirm that I'm hearing
37:09
Speaker 1: you right, we can change visceral fat without being in
37:13
Speaker 1: a calorie deficit.
37:14
Speaker 3: Then that study showed, Yes, that.
37:16
Speaker 4: Study showed with the higher energy output more of energy flux, Yes,
37:20
Speaker 4: we actually had a reduction in the visceral fat in
37:22
Speaker 4: that particular study. Pretty great to see that, And I
37:26
Speaker 4: want to follow that, Hailey with another really cool study.
37:29
Speaker 4: I think your audience would really like. We were looking
37:31
Speaker 4: at a giant weight loss study. These were people who
37:34
Speaker 4: were looking to go get bariatric surgery. So they were
37:38
Speaker 4: going to a bariatric center to have surgery and instead
37:41
Speaker 4: they see our team sitting there and we're like, hey,
37:43
Speaker 4: instead of having that surgery, come with us for some diet,
37:45
Speaker 4: for some diet and exercise. So, as you can imagine,
37:48
Speaker 4: many people didn't want that, and so they went on
37:51
Speaker 4: their way. But we were able to recruit a lot
37:53
Speaker 4: in for our work which was run by a guy
37:55
Speaker 4: named Eddie Joe for his PhD dissertation that was run
37:58
Speaker 4: out of a colleagues lab at our university. And so
38:01
Speaker 4: when they came through and we actually recruited these people in,
38:05
Speaker 4: every one of them went on the medically supervised diet
38:07
Speaker 4: which was required at the bariatric center. Do you know
38:10
Speaker 4: the calorie intake for a medically supervised diet? How low
38:12
Speaker 4: that is?
38:13
Speaker 3: Under one thousand?
38:15
Speaker 4: Yes, about about eight hundred calories is what it was
38:18
Speaker 4: when we did the study. It's terrible, and it's mostly liquid,
38:21
Speaker 4: and you're coming from a position where you're going for
38:23
Speaker 4: bariatric surgery, so the calories are far higher than that
38:25
Speaker 4: in your usual life, and then you quickly cut that
38:28
Speaker 4: down with mostly liquid foods to go to go through
38:32
Speaker 4: these and it's just miserable, right. You do lose a
38:34
Speaker 4: lot of weight though, because you're just not eating much
38:37
Speaker 4: at all. And so what we did is we took
38:39
Speaker 4: all these people and we said, it's actually at a
38:42
Speaker 4: harm if we don't add protein to both of these groups,
38:45
Speaker 4: because on a calorie on a Graham's Perkge basis, they
38:49
Speaker 4: were like at zero point four Graham's perkge, which is
38:53
Speaker 4: like half of the RDA, which we know is probably
38:56
Speaker 4: half of what we should be eating. So you can
38:59
Speaker 4: do the math. It's very very low based on total
39:01
Speaker 4: body size. And so when we added protein to both groups,
39:05
Speaker 4: it became a situation where it was like really cool
39:07
Speaker 4: to see where they you know, they all had a
39:10
Speaker 4: little bit extra protein. So it put their calories up
39:12
Speaker 4: to about twelve hundred or so, which is still not
39:15
Speaker 4: very high, but it was at least better than eight hundred.
39:18
Speaker 4: And then one of those groups got resistance training and
39:21
Speaker 4: the other one did standard of care, which was more
39:23
Speaker 4: like calisthenics and just walking and things like that. And
39:26
Speaker 4: after the period of that particular study, this is going
39:30
Speaker 4: back to the body weight versus composition. Both groups lost
39:32
Speaker 4: a ton of body weight, but the composition was so
39:35
Speaker 4: critical so when they lost all that weight, the group
39:38
Speaker 4: that maintained or had the higher protein and got the
39:41
Speaker 4: resistance training of their weight lost, let's say twenty four
39:47
Speaker 4: percent of that weight lost was fat and they only
39:53
Speaker 4: lost a teeny little bit of muscle along that way. Now,
39:58
Speaker 4: on the other hand, the the group that got a
40:02
Speaker 4: little bit of protein but didn't do resistance training, they
40:05
Speaker 4: lost a significant amount of muscle mass in that in
40:10
Speaker 4: that period of time. So the end of the day,
40:13
Speaker 4: and I think I said that backwards, so let me
40:15
Speaker 4: just rephrase that the group that did resistance training only
40:17
Speaker 4: lost four percent of their muscle mass. The group that
40:20
Speaker 4: did not do resistance training lost twenty four percent of
40:23
Speaker 4: their muscle mass in that study. Twenty four so like
40:26
Speaker 4: a quarter of the weight loss was muscle. And so
40:29
Speaker 4: now if you stop doing that, you're at a place
40:31
Speaker 4: where you're smaller, but you also have way less muscle.
40:35
Speaker 4: And if you start to eat normally again it's called
40:39
Speaker 4: weight recidivism, you're just gonna put it right back on
40:41
Speaker 4: and go even even worse with it. And so in
40:44
Speaker 4: my mind, that was like, gosh, out of the gate,
40:47
Speaker 4: we had data to show that in any of these
40:50
Speaker 4: weight loss giant weight loss studies like you've got to
40:52
Speaker 4: be weight training, got to have higher protein in order
40:55
Speaker 4: to save your muscle mass.
40:57
Speaker 1: Okay, so then this same conversation would apply to someone
41:02
Speaker 1: who's going on like a GLP one and losing a
41:05
Speaker 1: lot of weight but not adding in resistance training and protein,
41:09
Speaker 1: but resistance training being the bigger rock for preserving muscle mass.
41:15
Speaker 4: One hundred percent. Now, I haven't run those studies. I
41:18
Speaker 4: know a lot of those are coming out now and
41:20
Speaker 4: being done with colleagues of mine all over the place.
41:22
Speaker 4: But yeah, because it's just a different mechanism to lose
41:25
Speaker 4: the weight. But if the weight was coming off that fast,
41:28
Speaker 4: you better be doing something to maintain the integrity of
41:31
Speaker 4: your muscle mass or you'll be just set up for
41:33
Speaker 4: other problems.
41:34
Speaker 1: All right, let's take a quick break to hear from
41:37
Speaker 1: some of the body pod sponsors.
41:39
Speaker 2: We'll be right back.
41:49
Speaker 1: Okay, Now, this is going to be getting into the
41:51
Speaker 1: weeds here, but I'm going to ask it anyways. So
41:55
Speaker 1: for the resistance training, did it matter what they were doing?
42:00
Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is a rep range
42:03
Speaker 1: getting close to failure using effort or just you know,
42:08
Speaker 1: kind of going in and being like, Okay, do your
42:11
Speaker 1: own thing, but you have to lift some weights.
42:13
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good question, Haley. That particular one was supervised,
42:17
Speaker 4: so they had a student trainer with them every single rep,
42:21
Speaker 4: every single exercise, and they were pushing for the sort
42:24
Speaker 4: of the normal recommendation, so it was full body exercise
42:29
Speaker 4: and they had that those three days a week, and
42:30
Speaker 4: then they had a rep range of round eight to
42:33
Speaker 4: twelve and they were supposed to be hitting close to
42:35
Speaker 4: failure on the end of those and so we had
42:38
Speaker 4: RPE scales rating or perceived exertion scales for every single
42:42
Speaker 4: time they went through that. So, yeah, it does matter,
42:45
Speaker 4: like you need to be getting close to failure. And
42:47
Speaker 4: I'm sure you've had conversations about that, Like the weight
42:49
Speaker 4: probably is not as important, it's just are you getting
42:52
Speaker 4: close to failure? And they were pushing themselves. They worked hard,
42:56
Speaker 4: they had a really good experience. It's actually helpful to
42:59
Speaker 4: be held accountable to somebody. They say that all the time, like,
43:02
Speaker 4: even if you're very well trained, it's nice to have
43:05
Speaker 4: a coach where oh yeah you can someone could keep
43:08
Speaker 4: you accountable. And yeah, they're they're pushing themselves.
43:11
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's go, let's move on to REP ranges
43:14
Speaker 1: since we're kind of touching on this for women and
43:21
Speaker 1: in like this midlife area is it is there only
43:25
Speaker 1: one way to train? Do we train all REP ranges?
43:28
Speaker 1: Do we get benefits from different REP ranges? I mean,
43:32
Speaker 1: I love to hear what my any expert says and
43:35
Speaker 1: any kind of turn that they might have or difference
43:39
Speaker 1: that they might have in this specific population.
43:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, I I don't know, if you ask my friends
43:47
Speaker 4: and stuff, I'm I'm pretty middle of the road kind
43:49
Speaker 4: of person.
43:50
Speaker 3: So I like that.
43:51
Speaker 4: Once again, I don't know that I'll you know, be
43:54
Speaker 4: real controversial and anything. But the way that I see it,
43:58
Speaker 4: based on my you, the literature, past coaching experience, and
44:02
Speaker 4: been in this field for thirty years, like, there's a
44:06
Speaker 4: there's a benefit to just about every type of exercise
44:08
Speaker 4: and every type of REP range to tissue metabolism, performance, recovery, psychology,
44:15
Speaker 4: you know what have you and so to me, if
44:19
Speaker 4: you like lower reps and heavier weight, then lift that way.
44:25
Speaker 4: If that's too heavy for you, or you are at
44:27
Speaker 4: an age where you like you don't need to backsquat
44:29
Speaker 4: so much anymore, like, then just shift it a little
44:32
Speaker 4: bit and then you can use a different rep range
44:34
Speaker 4: and so for me, I like to work through a
44:36
Speaker 4: full range of them. I have heavy days, I have
44:38
Speaker 4: light days. The people that we work with, the women
44:41
Speaker 4: that are highly active and are associated with our facility
44:44
Speaker 4: at the Institute of Sports Sciences in Medicine, do that too.
44:47
Speaker 4: So there'll be a day of you know, you know,
44:50
Speaker 4: even with the aerobic world, like a zone two day,
44:53
Speaker 4: and then they'll be like a higher intensity day and
44:55
Speaker 4: there'll be heavy days and all that. And some of
44:57
Speaker 4: that's based on how you feel that day, Hailey, because
44:59
Speaker 4: there there's something to autoregulation where you're in the gym
45:03
Speaker 4: or you're in your garage, wherever you're training, and some
45:06
Speaker 4: days you're just like, I'm dialed in. I can totally
45:09
Speaker 4: go heavy today, that's what I want to be doing.
45:10
Speaker 4: But that's taxing on your nervous systems. So I don't
45:12
Speaker 4: think you should do that every single day, and so
45:15
Speaker 4: we work through a wide range of weights and also
45:19
Speaker 4: repetitions is what I would personally recommend, and there's some
45:23
Speaker 4: data to back up variety in general. So again, Paul,
45:27
Speaker 4: our heroes run many of these studies. I was associated
45:30
Speaker 4: with two or three of them. They're called Prize and
45:33
Speaker 4: it's so the prize is an acronym for protein is,
45:35
Speaker 4: the P, resistance training is, the R I is intermittent
45:39
Speaker 4: like sprints, s is stretching or yoga, and then E
45:44
Speaker 4: was endurance. And so he compared in many different studies
45:47
Speaker 4: this Prize program to traditional exercises, and simply the variety
45:52
Speaker 4: that's provided with you know, something different just about every
45:55
Speaker 4: single day was quite useful, and I think it would
45:58
Speaker 4: be useful for things in general like compliance and wanting
46:02
Speaker 4: to go do something. It's not the same thing every day.
46:04
Speaker 4: But he also found greater benefits with that sort of
46:08
Speaker 4: approach for like you said, visceral fat, abdominal fat, muscle mass, etc.
46:14
Speaker 4: And so outside of just rep ranges even between types
46:17
Speaker 4: of exercise, I think that variety is really nice and
46:20
Speaker 4: it keeps you ready, right like if my kids want
46:22
Speaker 4: to play on the playground, I want to be able
46:25
Speaker 4: to do that with him. If they want to do
46:27
Speaker 4: some activity, I hope I can still throw a ball
46:30
Speaker 4: or kick a soccer ball, So it keeps you sort
46:31
Speaker 4: of it at least keeps me in the mindset of
46:34
Speaker 4: like I can still hang with most things, so let's
46:36
Speaker 4: go ahead and try these different activities.
46:39
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Okay.
46:42
Speaker 1: So another study that I would like your input on,
46:48
Speaker 1: which was super fascinating to me because I've never really
46:53
Speaker 1: cared that much about pologen and when people ask me,
46:56
Speaker 1: I'm like, what take it or don't?
46:59
Speaker 3: It's one other that I have to take.
47:01
Speaker 1: And now, after I've listened to some podcasts that you're on,
47:05
Speaker 1: I'm starting the collagen regularly from here on out, So
47:09
Speaker 1: let's talk about that.
47:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's another one. I felt the same way
47:14
Speaker 4: before we actually did the research on. I was like, oh, no, like,
47:18
Speaker 4: it's not a complete protein. I don't think this is
47:20
Speaker 4: This probably isn't the way that I would be wanting
47:22
Speaker 4: to get my protein in. And so when the opportunity
47:26
Speaker 4: came up to study collagen, we made sure to do
47:29
Speaker 4: it right. We when we chose a population that was great,
47:33
Speaker 4: and I'm you know, as I'm getting older, I'm like, hey, ye,
47:35
Speaker 4: middle age is great, let's study let's study that. I
47:38
Speaker 4: want to see what happens. And so we took lifelong
47:41
Speaker 4: active people. Lifelong active it could be anything. It could
47:44
Speaker 4: been golf walking, it could have been even like high
47:46
Speaker 4: level elite athletes. But you had to be active your
47:48
Speaker 4: whole life. And then we ended up studying collagen intake
47:53
Speaker 4: at three different levels, like zero, so you took up
47:55
Speaker 4: placebo ten grams per day or twenty grams per day,
47:59
Speaker 4: and then we measured and we had them take the
48:02
Speaker 4: supplement for nine months, which is the kicker. That's a
48:06
Speaker 4: very hard thing to pull off in the research world,
48:08
Speaker 4: is something that long. And we did that for a
48:11
Speaker 4: couple of reasons. One is like there's a lot of
48:14
Speaker 4: negativity around collagen. We want to make sure we didn't
48:16
Speaker 4: just go too short, and that we didn't want to
48:19
Speaker 4: finish and say, you know, if we had done a
48:21
Speaker 4: little bit longer, maybe we would have seen something, So
48:23
Speaker 4: we wanted to take it all the way out. We
48:25
Speaker 4: also wanted to look at see if there's any changes
48:26
Speaker 4: in bone mineral density, and that won't change until at
48:30
Speaker 4: least a minimum of nine months, so we were still
48:32
Speaker 4: just on the customer. If we were going to see something,
48:34
Speaker 4: we might have seen it about that point. And so
48:38
Speaker 4: our primary outcomes were not muscle growth, which I wouldn't
48:42
Speaker 4: recommend collegen for. Our primary outcomes was joint pain and
48:48
Speaker 4: a lot of middle aged active people one day or
48:52
Speaker 4: another have joint pain. So you couldn't have diagnosed to osteoarthritis,
48:56
Speaker 4: but you had to have some type of reoccurring but
48:59
Speaker 4: not persistent joint pain. And so that's what we did.
49:04
Speaker 4: We lined it up. Shiloakivkovski ran that study for her
49:08
Speaker 4: PhD dissertation, and she's phenomenal and we did so much
49:11
Speaker 4: great work in that space. And what we ended up
49:13
Speaker 4: finding after nine months of that was that taking the
49:18
Speaker 4: collagen was most beneficial if you were the most active.
49:23
Speaker 4: If you were the most active people in the study,
49:26
Speaker 4: and so there were some benefits in some things we
49:29
Speaker 4: measured across the board, but if you exercised more than
49:32
Speaker 4: about one hundred and I think it was about one
49:34
Speaker 4: hundred and sixty hundred and eighty minutes a week, that's
49:37
Speaker 4: where those people ended up seeing the most benefit from
49:42
Speaker 4: taking collagen. If you didn't if you were active, but
49:44
Speaker 4: it was less than that one hundred and fifty minutes
49:46
Speaker 4: a week or so, that's where not so much was
49:49
Speaker 4: seen in those individuals. And the thought is that the
49:53
Speaker 4: most active people have the most opportunity to get collagen
49:57
Speaker 4: because it's very hard to get collagen where it needs
49:59
Speaker 4: to go you have to have blood flow to the joints,
50:02
Speaker 4: and that only is really going to happen maybe when
50:05
Speaker 4: you're exercising that those people are just so active that
50:08
Speaker 4: you had an opportunity to get the collagen perhaps to
50:13
Speaker 4: these areas we were measuring for joint pain. Now some
50:15
Speaker 4: nuances here, right, let's always sort of cap this off
50:19
Speaker 4: in our hands. Ten grams seem to work a little
50:22
Speaker 4: bit better in most cases than twenty grams, and we
50:26
Speaker 4: don't know why. So it's interesting. Yeah, so ten grams
50:30
Speaker 4: is what I take. Ten grams is what I typically
50:33
Speaker 4: recommend for people. Now twenty it wasn't ineffective, It just
50:37
Speaker 4: had we had more of the outcomes changed in the
50:40
Speaker 4: positive direction from ten grams, And I don't know why.
50:44
Speaker 4: We have some theories on it. We're trying to test
50:45
Speaker 4: now with some ongoing work, but we still don't know why.
50:50
Speaker 4: And I think with the Collegen conversation, it's like, how
50:54
Speaker 4: in the world would it be better than like a
50:57
Speaker 4: complete protein, like a wave protein, And that's where this
51:01
Speaker 4: a lot of negativity comes. Still, if you're talking about
51:04
Speaker 4: muscle growth, collagen should not be what you're choosing to take.
51:08
Speaker 4: You should be taking away or caseine or you know,
51:11
Speaker 4: a soy supplement product or something. The collagen specifically in
51:16
Speaker 4: my mind, because it's the only data I've seen that
51:18
Speaker 4: I believe is with this joint pain angle, And I
51:22
Speaker 4: don't know. I'm not sure exactly why it would help
51:25
Speaker 4: with these specific things other than the makeup of it
51:27
Speaker 4: with the glycine, the proleine hydroxyproleine combination of these amino
51:32
Speaker 4: acids that are high concentration in collagen also make up
51:37
Speaker 4: the tends in the joint, so it's not that they're
51:39
Speaker 4: absent from away, they just are very much present in
51:42
Speaker 4: the collagen. And I think a lot of work needs
51:45
Speaker 4: to be done to say why would it target a tissue?
51:49
Speaker 4: We don't know. But at the end of the day,
51:52
Speaker 4: the mechanisms are really really critical, but the outcomes to
51:56
Speaker 4: me are even more critical. Do you feel better than
52:00
Speaker 4: hate it? And we can figure out the in between
52:03
Speaker 4: and we work on it, and I'm not, you know,
52:05
Speaker 4: putting down the mechanistic piece. We need to know that,
52:07
Speaker 4: But at the moment, it looks like pain is better
52:09
Speaker 4: if you're very active. Why not give it a try.
52:12
Speaker 4: It's not gonna hurt anything, and it might it might
52:15
Speaker 4: help you.
52:16
Speaker 1: No, this is great because I don't know any female
52:19
Speaker 1: or very few that does not have some kind of
52:22
Speaker 1: joint pain, especially post menopause when we no longer have estrogen,
52:27
Speaker 1: that comes up a lot. And so this is great news.
52:30
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm starting. I started the protein last night.
52:34
Speaker 1: Now what's starting the collegeen today?
52:36
Speaker 3: I have it.
52:37
Speaker 1: I have loads in my house. I just if it's
52:40
Speaker 1: not sitting right out. I'm really good with creatine and
52:44
Speaker 1: just getting protein. But then it's just one extra thing
52:47
Speaker 1: to like throw in there.
52:48
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like the timing for
52:51
Speaker 4: it's also probably important for collegen, like that would be
52:55
Speaker 4: like a pre workout type time that you would want
52:58
Speaker 4: to take it before exercise you.
53:00
Speaker 1: Can, oh, okay, good, so they can take it if
53:02
Speaker 1: they're having some some protein before add.
53:06
Speaker 3: It in there.
53:06
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. And I'm starting to see it now. There's
53:09
Speaker 4: companies that are coming out with with Way and Collegen
53:12
Speaker 4: mixed together. So it's one thing. Just watch your dosing,
53:15
Speaker 4: make sure you get in the right dosing if you're
53:17
Speaker 4: looking at those those products.
53:19
Speaker 3: Okay, great, I'm so mad. We're out of time right now.
53:22
Speaker 3: I feel like we.
53:23
Speaker 1: Got two things on my list done, but while we
53:28
Speaker 1: wrap this up because I'm sensitive of your time and
53:30
Speaker 1: I just appreciate you so much, Mike. It's so great
53:33
Speaker 1: to get to know you and have a conversation with you.
53:36
Speaker 3: Uh if people are looking for you, you said you,
53:38
Speaker 3: I know you have to. You're the author of two books.
53:41
Speaker 4: Too, yes, so yeah real real uh real fun read.
53:45
Speaker 4: So one's a textbook, which is an exercise physiology textbook,
53:49
Speaker 4: which is like a great like background resource if you're
53:52
Speaker 4: a trainer or someone in ex fizz and just need
53:55
Speaker 4: like the nuts and bolts. The other one's more of
53:57
Speaker 4: like a it's a it's a book and a what
54:00
Speaker 4: was made through a company called The Great Courses that
54:03
Speaker 4: was bought by Wonderum. So it's like this continuing education
54:06
Speaker 4: courses and it's not overly like entertaining. You're basically in
54:10
Speaker 4: a classroom with me, and they're twenty four to thirty
54:12
Speaker 4: minute lectures so you can listen to them like on
54:14
Speaker 4: a commute and it's just the nuts and bolts. But
54:18
Speaker 4: it's a really good base to have, like if you
54:20
Speaker 4: want a base before you dig into like one hundred
54:23
Speaker 4: podcasts that get confusing. It's a good base to have.
54:26
Speaker 1: Well, this is amazing, and this is for anyone, not
54:29
Speaker 1: just trainers or students.
54:32
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, the Great Courses are really cool. They are
54:35
Speaker 4: like any topic you can imagine. But the one that
54:37
Speaker 4: I did was on changing body composition through diet and exercise,
54:40
Speaker 4: and it's for everybody. It's made at any level. It's
54:44
Speaker 4: an intro level.
54:46
Speaker 1: Okay, great, so they can find that online or your Instagram.
54:50
Speaker 3: What's your Instagram handle?
54:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, so Instagram's just at Mike Wormsby and I try
54:56
Speaker 4: to put up everything from our lab. There a lot
54:58
Speaker 4: of our studies, these pre sleep feeding things are things
55:00
Speaker 4: that are in and related to these topics we've talked
55:02
Speaker 4: about today, So it's a great resource there. And then yeah,
55:06
Speaker 4: the Great Courses thing is available. Just if you just
55:08
Speaker 4: google that title in my name, you'll you can find it.
55:11
Speaker 4: But Great Courses Amazon has it a couple easy spots.
55:15
Speaker 4: But yeah, i'd encourage a follow to see what we're
55:17
Speaker 4: up to and love communicating with If anybody's questions.
55:21
Speaker 3: Oh that's great.
55:22
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much again Mike for your time,
55:24
Speaker 1: and I just appreciate what you're doing in the field
55:26
Speaker 1: and your willingness to talk to my audience who I
55:29
Speaker 1: know are going to absolutely love this podcast great.
55:33
Speaker 3: Thanks Haley anytime, Thanks for listening.
55:37
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a
55:40
Speaker 1: five star review and sharing the body Pod with your friends.
55:44
Speaker 3: Until next time,