Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / 238 | Kelly Longtin | From Fitness Pro to Law Firm Owner

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238 | Kelly Longtin | From Fitness Pro to Law Firm Owner · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

• 0:01
  Intro: Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. What
• 0:05
  Davina: if
• 0:05
  Intro: you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more. Then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Devina Frederick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve, and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. Devina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and her goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the lifestyle of your dreams. Now here's to Vina.
• 0:51
  Davina: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Vina Frederick, and today's guest is Kelly Longtin. Kelly Longtin is the founder and CEO of Kelly Longtin Law in North Andover, Massachusetts. Kelly Longtin Law provides estate planning and probate services for families and individuals in Massachusetts and New Hampshire. Kelly attended Westfield State, which is now Westfield University, where she received a bachelor's degree and played college basketball.
• 1:21
  She then attended Wheelock College in Boston where she received a dual master's degree in education. Upon graduation, she enrolled in the Massachusetts School of Law where she received a JD and then was admitted into the Massachusetts Bar Association as well as the New Hampshire Bar Association. Kelly's primary focus is on helping everyday families develop an estate plan that plans for and protects their families when they are no longer able to do so themselves, protecting them from the devastating effects of disability and death, and developing a plan that minimizes taxes, expenses, and court involvement. Kelly is a former member of the American Academy of Estate Planning Attorneys and an active member of Wealth Council, And she's also a member of the North Shore Women Lawyers Association. She's a certified mediator and an established, speaker in estate planning as well as the author of the book, Ladies Legacies Estate Planning for Women.
• 2:18
  So please welcome Kelly Longtin to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. Oh, hi, Kelly. Welcome. It's so good to have you here.
• 2:25
  Kelly: Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here. Good.
• 2:28
  Davina: So we have a lot to talk about today. I want tell me start out by telling me a little bit about your law firm and the services that you provide for your clients.
• 2:36
  Kelly: So here at our law firm, we focus solely on estate planning. So whether it's preplanning or dealing with the estate after a loved one has passed away. So basic wills, trusts, powers of attorney, helping our clients just funding, doing some tax planning, and of course, probate and trust administration.
• 2:57
  Davina: Right. Right. How long have you how long have you been a practicing attorney?
• 3:04
  Kelly: So I've been practicing for eleven years. So all I've ever done is estate planning. So it's kind of an interesting journey to get to this point.
• 3:16
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. So tell me, let's talk about your journey. First of all, let's talk about your journey to becoming a lawyer. Were you somebody who always knew that you wanted to be a lawyer or did that sort of evolve for you?
• 3:27
  Kelly: No, it definitely evolved. So I actually started out, I got my master's degree in education and I owned fitness companies. Then to be honest, I went through a divorce and I was like, uh-oh, what am I gonna do? I can't financially support the lifestyle that I want on my own. And doing this, I was actually only a year into my fitness businesses.
• 3:55
  So it was kind of like just a big shock. And then I was like, how can I help people and put my kids through college? So that's kind of where it ended up. I had one of my best friends was a doctor and my other one was an attorney. And I just thought, okay, I have to take it to the next level.
• 4:14
  So it's going to be one of these two things. Medical school seemed like it would take way too long. So I went to law school and I can still remember going to the open house and them talking about how you can help people. And I was like, that is definitely for me.
• 4:30
  Davina: Wonderful. So when you went to law school, did you intend to start your own practice right out of law school, or did you, what was your current
• 4:40
  Kelly: path know that I had an initial plan. I've always worked for myself, so I knew my personality would be one that I probably couldn't work for somebody else. Or if I did, it would be like a short term stint just because of my personality. So, you know, it's scary at first, right? Because you get out of law school and you don't really know exactly what you're doing, right?
• 5:07
  So I ended up with a client who became my partner. So we had an estate planning firm together, and then I just knew myself and it was just time to go in, the next part of the journey to have my own firm.
• 5:23
  Davina: So how long were you with your partner?
• 5:25
  Kelly: I was with him for about seven, seven and a half years, a little shy of eight. So he was an attorney. He was my client when I owned my fitness businesses. The day I took the bar, he offered me a job and I was like, okay, I guess I'll do this.
• 5:48
  Davina: Wow. Wow. So that's so interesting how that connection led you led you to that. So give me an idea of, like, what your what were some of the advantages and some of the disadvantages of being in partnership after having had that experience and reflecting on it?
• 6:06
  Kelly: Yeah. I think at the time, the benefits of it was like, I was new to being an attorney, right? I wasn't new to business. That part I had down very well, but I was new to being an attorney. This person was more experienced than I was.
• 6:23
  So there was a lot of, I could learn through that experience. So in that way, it was beneficial. I could learn the practice of estate planning and just kind of have a crutch, so to speak to fall back on. But the negative side is, is that there's a limitation, right? To where you want to grow or how you want to do things.
• 6:51
  You know, you have to be in agreement and you have to do that and you may not have the same outlook on where this firm is going or business. And that's ultimately what ended up happening. And I just knew that there was places I wanted to go in life and I wouldn't be able to get there if I continued with that partnership.
• 7:10
  Davina: What was your vision for your law firm? And how do you think it was different from maybe his vision?
• 7:16
  Kelly: I think my vision so we had grown a lot. So we had like five offices and it would grew quick. So there was just a quick, quick, quick. But I think for me, it was becoming more of like a sales position. And it was taking away from the whole reason why I got into or decided to go to Lascaux was to help people.
• 7:45
  And I felt like I was kind of like, as each year went on, I felt like I was less involved in actually doing that. And I think that, you know, his particular vision was like, just grow, grow, grow, grow. You don't really need to be involved in any of that. But I just needed to, I needed to make a difference.
• 8:07
  Davina: Right. Right. Right. It's so interesting because I think, one of the great things about working for yourself, whether you have a partner or you're by yourself, is that you get to define what it is that you, you know, figure out what it is that you like to do and do that thing. So for some people, it's running the business.
• 8:28
  Some people just love the running the business part, and other people love the doing the work part. And I think there's a model there that can work for both ways. You just have to have support, you know, for the things that you don't want to do. Right? But I think it's really great that you know yourself enough to sort of know, you know, this isn't gonna work for me and then to set out on your own.
• 8:47
  So what was it like to, you have owned businesses before, so there was a certain comfort level in in starting this. But were there any nerves around it for you since it's a law firm, it's a different kind of thing? Or
• 9:00
  Kelly: I honestly didn't feel nervous at all. So I think that so it's kind of what you just said, right? I was really good at business, so I know how to make money. That is one thing I'm really, really good at. And I like to help people, but I do a support system, right?
• 9:18
  So we can bring in clients. I don't necessarily have to do all of the work and we can be very successful, right? So I think that I didn't feel nervous. It was kind of the opposite. Excited.
• 9:33
  Yeah. I wasn't worried about clients or money that I knew I was really, really good at. I think some of the nerves were like, what kind of insurance do I have to get and how does this software work? And making those types of decisions. But I wasn't nervous.
• 9:54
  I think if you do the groundwork ahead of time, at least in your mind, right? I've already laid out processes. And to be honest, I left, my paralegal came with me and we did not take a client for the first month. So all we did was set up processes so we could do a lot of volume and not have to, sacrifice, you know, making revenue.
• 10:25
  Davina: Wow. So that's so interesting that for the first month, you didn't, even accept clients. You were getting everything set up. A lot of people would probably wonder how you did that. You saved obviously and were prepared for that.
• 10:41
  Kelly: Well, I don't know if I really was because I just one day decided to end that partnership. I didn't actually have a plan when I decided to do that. I just decided that, you know, something happened that like most people in life, it was like my last straw and I was like, okay, I'm done. So I didn't have a plan when I initially made that decision, but I know, or at least my belief is that if you set a good foundation, everything else, you'll be ready to deal with everything else. And I've seen people who don't set the foundation and then they can't handle what's coming in or it's unorganized or whatever the case may be.
• 11:23
  And for us, so I'm all referral based. So I know from my businesses that if I take care of my clients, they'll take care of us. So the only way to do that, in my opinion, is to offer good customer client service. And I don't feel like you can do that unless you have a good foundation in place first.
• 11:46
  Davina: What do you think you learned from your gym businesses that sort of transferred over into your law firm business?
• 11:54
  Kelly: People. I believe in relationships. You know, interesting enough, I had my gym businesses and I had like a core group of clients and customers that stayed with me while I was in law school. So I was running a business and going to law school. And sometimes I'm like, I know these people know that they're supporting me so I can go to law school.
• 12:19
  But it's relationships. And that's what I think any business is about. And I say this all the time. I will drive a 100 miles out of my way to give someone I like money. But if I don't like you and you're right next door, I'm probably not going to work with you.
• 12:36
  So I
• 12:37
  Davina: So what do you think there are some what what kinds of things do you think that you do that sort of set you apart from other attorneys as far as developing those relationships? What are your tips on developing those good relationships?
• 12:50
  Kelly: Well, I think the first thing is, like, you generally have to like people. Right? Some people are good at networking. Some people are not. Right?
• 12:58
  It's just not their strong suit. I think you generally have to have an interest in people. And the interesting thing is, is I'm a huge networker, but I hardly ever talk about business.
• 13:12
  Davina: Oh, interesting. So what's your approach?
• 13:16
  Kelly: Just them as a person. I kinda feel like I'm an estate planning attorney. That's all my firm does. That pretty much speaks for itself. So I hardly ever talk about this is what we do.
• 13:30
  It's kind of clear what we do. So I just focus on the person.
• 13:35
  Davina: Like get asking them questions about themselves and getting to know them and that kind of thing?
• 13:40
  Kelly: 100%. Because it's the same thing. Right? If I'm gonna refer our clients to them, but I don't genuinely like them, then I'm probably not going to send them clients.
• 13:50
  Davina: Right. Right. So it's about really that personal relationship. Now let me ask you this. How does that how do you do you teach that to your team?
• 14:04
  And how do you once you as you grow and you have other attorneys working with you, I know you have an associate, Do you teach them how to do that as well? How to foster those relationships? Are there processes in your firm that help to foster relationships?
• 14:20
  Kelly: So I guess in the first part is I don't know that you can teach it. I think the key is into hiring the right fit for whatever your firm is. For us, we are super involved in people's lives. So I can only hire people that genuinely care about other people. So there's a little bit of a vetting process with that.
• 14:47
  I think when I'm interviewing, there's certain character things that I look for. I believe you can teach technical skills. I don't know that you can teach human relation skills. So I think that's the first part.
• 15:03
  Davina: Let me before you go there, let me ask you what clues do you sort of look for when you're interviewing somebody?
• 15:09
  Kelly: I ask off the cuff questions. Like, how would your friends describe you? Tell me an incident where you went out of your way to help somebody. You know, if somebody was stranded on the side of the road, would you stop? Like, just like things like that, because we only focus on estate planning, right?
• 15:28
  So a lot of our clients are older. They need extra hand holding and you can't teach that. Right? If somebody is not built like that, then they're not going to want to do the hand holding. Right.
• 15:40
  Davina: Right. They have compassion for people in that way.
• 15:44
  Kelly: Yeah. So it's like, I look for those things. You know, I pretty much assume if you graduated from Suffolk or Harvard or any other law school that you're capable of being an entrepreneur. And I can teach you the technical skills, but I can't teach you the human nature compassion skills.
• 16:02
  Davina: Yeah. So back to my other question other part two of my question was the processes. Do you think you've built processes in your firm that help foster and keep those relationships with people?
• 16:16
  Kelly: Yeah. So we have so like a touch approach here. Right? So we have different centers of influences, but it's similar to what I said earlier. So I have a list of people who regularly send me business or who I want to send me business because in networking, you're going to try, try, try.
• 16:39
  And eventually you're like, this person's not vibing with me. So you're going to want to take your resources and spend the time with the people that you do. So I have a list of people that's actually on my wall that I routinely will just reach out to. Hey. I was just thinking of you today.
• 16:57
  How are the kids doing? Whatever the case may be. Like I said, I barely mention business when I'm networking and creating relationships.
• 17:07
  Davina: Mhmm. With your your assistant and your associate and your other people on your team, are there certain things that they do to help you in in that process?
• 17:22
  Kelly: Yeah. So as part of our process, so one of the and this is just an example, right? So because we're so process oriented, like we track where the referral came from, we send them a handwritten note. If it's a financial planner, we reach out and personally just call them. So it's all those like personal touches.
• 17:42
  So that's part of our process. So whether it's my client, whether it's my associates, we have it as part of our process. So it's a must.
• 17:51
  Davina: Right? Right.
• 17:52
  Kelly: Wherever the referral came from, it has its specific process. If it's a client, they get a letter. If it's a financial planner, they get a letter and a phone call. So everything is pretty detailed out.
• 18:04
  Davina: Yeah. I think that's what I wanted to, get you to share because that for a lot of people, it's a mystery if they are not good at good networking and they might not are building relationships. They might not realize that there's, oftentimes, there's a process involved in that. So it's not just you remembering to call everybody or whatever. You've built something in your system so that there are ticklers and reminders to do certain things, right, which is critical.
• 18:34
  And you sound like a really a process person, somebody who works the first month setting up processes before they why do you think that's an important thing to do?
• 18:46
  Kelly: For many reasons. Right? For growth. Right? So if we hire someone else, it's a clear process for someone to follow.
• 18:54
  It's easier to train people. We're all on the same page. We know what's happening and what's not. I also think that it gives the appearance that you are well organized and kind of elite, right? It gives a sense of confidence to clients when they know that there's a process and this is what you do.
• 19:20
  Davina: I wholeheartedly agree. Absolutely. Absolutely. And
• 19:24
  Kelly: I don't really vary from my process. And I will say, Nope, this is our process. This is what we do. It's also part of my initial intake, right? This is our process.
• 19:37
  This is how we work here. You know, it really does give a sense of confidence because that's the feedback you hear. I'm really glad you have a process.
• 19:48
  Davina: Wow. And so what do you do if somebody so I recently had somebody reach out to me and saying, you know, oh, you've got this intake form and I don't wanna fill out the intake form. And I went back to them and explained, you know, what the options were. And if you wanna meet with me, you have to let me intake form. So and I explained why.
• 20:09
  But what do you do if somebody says to you, I don't want to follow your process? Maybe it's just, maybe they don't say it directly like that, but they might say, well, I can't, I don't want to send you that, or I don't want to fill this out or, you know, whatever. How do you handle something like that?
• 20:26
  Kelly: I'm gonna be honest with you. I will probably just say that you're not a good fit for us because they're probably not. Right? We have processes in place for a reason. Like, I'll give you an example.
• 20:39
  We don't send drafts. Right? So if somebody asks for a draft, I say that's not part of our process. I'm happy to meet with you to go over it, but I will not be sending a draft ahead of time. And I usually will joke around.
• 20:54
  You don't understand what you're reading anyway, so what's the point? But we have processes for a reason if somebody is not on board. And if you think about it, do you really want that person as a client? Because long term, they may be difficult about many other things besides this one.
• 21:14
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's always my feeling is if somebody tries to kind of come in and take charge of what's going on as opposed to coming in and and saying, you know, what alright. What do we do?
• 21:31
  You know? And and letting me sort of lead or guide in that in those terms. This was the same when I had my law firm. It's the same way I run my coaching business is that it tells me right from the very beginning, okay. This is somebody who likes to be in charge so much so that they wanna, you know, bulldoze over what what it is that you're doing.
• 21:50
  And you really when you say to people, you know, I have a process, you really see what kind of people they are and how they respond to it. Because people who respect your process are often the best ones to work with because they understand you have an expertise and they're looking to you for guidance.
• 22:06
  Kelly: Absolutely. And that's the type of client you want and that's the type of client that will then send you referrals.
• 22:12
  Davina: Saves you a lot of headache down the line, doesn't it?
• 22:15
  Kelly: I learned that lesson many, many times.
• 22:18
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. We always learn it the hard way for some reason.
• 22:22
  Kelly: You have to though.
• 22:23
  Davina: So tell me about your you wrote a book. So tell I wanna hear about this, book. What it's called?
• 22:29
  Kelly: Ladies Legacies.
• 22:31
  Davina: Ladies Legacies. And why did you write it?
• 22:35
  Kelly: All right. So I'll tell you how that started. So maybe about seven years ago, seven or eight, I met with a woman whose husband had just passed away and she was completely just obviously overwhelmed because of the death of her spouse, right? But overwhelmed with the finances. Like, and keep in mind, you know, generationally men typically manage the finances, right?
• 23:04
  And women didn't. Mean, you still see it now, just not as common as it is in that generation. And I remember like she wasn't even sure like what banks they were at, what the money was, and just the panic that came over her. And I was just like, I've got to do something. So I started doing public presentations titled What to Do When Your Husband Passes Away.
• 23:31
  So those became very, very popular. We always did it themed, like I did pocketbook themes with the local charity. So everyone had to donate a pocketbook. That was their price of admission, so to speak. But it became very popular.
• 23:44
  And then husbands were like, why can't we come? So I have this like secret, I don't know, this sweet spot to help women just kind of gain control of their lives. So then as time went on, I thought, okay, why do I just need to talk to widows? Why can't I talk to women in all different demographics about why this is important, why estate planning is important, the different nuances that are in each group, whether it's so it's single, widow, divorce, but it's also age too, 20s, 30s, 40s. We all have different concerns and thoughts and knowledge based on the demographics and the age.
• 24:27
  So I thought, well, why can't I just take this to a bigger level? And that's pretty much how that book was born. We also do webinars, Ladies Legacies, Estate Planning for Women. So that that was the journey of it all.
• 24:43
  Davina: Why do you think estate planning, is different for women than it is for men? I mean, why why do you think, like, it's important for us to kind of go the extra mile with women?
• 24:58
  Kelly: Well, if you think about it statistically, women outlive male, right, outlive men. So we're left to deal with finances, right? We might inherit more than once. Maybe you inherit from your spouse. Maybe you inherit from your parents and we're left to deal with it all, right?
• 25:19
  And we think tend to think about things differently, right? So, there's a lot of emotion that perhaps comes in that isn't as relevant or important to male counterparts. So, I just think that there's different things that we think about. And there's also like we're balancing parenting if you have children with careers, and this can kind of get put on the back burner sometimes because you just have a ton of other things going on in life that this doesn't become a priority sometimes. So I think that it just needs to be brought to the forefront.
• 26:00
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. I have two sisters and our parents are in their eighties. And, you know, I I see women women are often sort of the ones who run the household. Even even if we're career women or whatever, we're still the one who do the we do the mental work.
• 26:22
  And daughters are often expected to, help their parents more so than sons in in a lot of ways. And so it's really kind of interesting to see, like, with my husband, how his relationship with his mother, who is a widow, and my relationship with my parents and how much work my sisters and I put in with my parents compared to how his relationship with his mother. And, and probably when his mother passes, I'll be involved in that. You know? And I think about if he were to pass before she does, what that would mean for me because he's an only child and all that kind of stuff.
• 27:01
  So it is I do think women do think about these things differently because he just like, he doesn't really, think in those sort of terms. And there are some men who do. I'm not saying that generally, but I just think oftentimes it's the role of women in a family.
• 27:15
  Kelly: Absolutely. Because if you think about it, just exactly what you said, right? So, my dad passed in July, right? And I'm helping my mom and I, every day I'm like, did you do this? Did you do that?
• 27:28
  Because I'm worried, right? Right. I have siblings. They're not as involved, but it's just, it's top of mind for me. Right?
• 27:38
  Not to mention, like, so you have your parents and your kids and your house and your business, all this other stuff going on that you're trying to like prioritize the things that you have to get done and the things that are important.
• 27:51
  Davina: Yeah. If you want something done, ask a busy woman is what they Yeah. Always say. But the average age, I've just shared this recently on a podcast because I was researching it. The average age of widows is 59.
• 28:02
  And I don't think people realize that well, those of us in our fifties think that's really young. I know if you're in your twenties and thirties, you don't think that's young, but it really is very young. And it's something so it's something that a lot of women will will go through. And and, like and even even some of my even some of the women law firm owners I know who are the breadwinners in their family, their spouses may handle a lot of the finances because they're busy working and making the money and taking care of the kids. And and so it's they're still, you know, splitting that duty and may not, know very much about financial finances and financial well-being and how to invest and all that.
• 28:48
  And they're busy and they think to themselves, I don't have time to learn all of this. And yet it's so critical that we know that we know.
• 28:56
  Kelly: You know, it's interesting because you'd like to think that times have changed a little bit. Right? But we help all of our clients with their assets. So I know exactly who's involved and who's not involved. Right.
• 29:08
  And why they're not. In typical, you know, male female marriages, you still see the men who kind of have their finger on that. You see successful to your statement, you see successful women that are like, I don't need to worry about that. And in my head, I'm thinking you do. Yeah.
• 29:30
  You do. But people take on roles in their relationships. Right? And the longer they're in those relationships, the more firm those roles tend to get. But then it always leaves one of them kind of out of touch with what's going on financially.
• 29:49
  Davina: Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. I've been I've been through a divorce, and I had a previous marriage. And, and the impact of that too because we know so many people get divorced and how that can really impact and and change your financial future when you get divorced.
• 30:09
  And that's why I think it's so important. That's why I kind of I'm like a got a megaphone shouting out to women, pay attention to your financial well-being because you're gonna go through things in life. It may not be widowhood. It may not be divorce, but it may be something else. You know?
• 30:27
  A sick parent you have to care for, something we never know. Right? And so it's really important to be on top of your, not only your estate planning and your finance financial well-being and all that, but also the people around you whose decisions can affect you. You know? I see that with with spouses and with parents and things like that.
• 30:51
  Their decisions can also affect you financially, and you need to be aware of that and what's going on and and may you know, take that into consideration when you're making decisions. Right? Alright. Absolutely. Back to, back to your business.
• 31:07
  So give us give us some idea. What advice would you have for a woman law firm owner who is out on her own or recently has gone out on her own or maybe behind you in the growth journey? What advice would you have for them?
• 31:24
  Kelly: I think the first is I would probably sit down and figure out who you are and what you want your business to look like. You know, what is your core values? Because in order, you know, my opinion is if you're gonna put all this time and work into your business, then it should be reflective of who you are because then it doesn't feel like work.
• 31:51
  Davina: Right.
• 31:52
  Kelly: It feels like fun.
• 31:54
  Davina: Yeah. I love that.
• 31:55
  Kelly: It feels like fun. So I think that would be the first part. And I think once you get a good understanding of that, then you'll be making your decisions based off of that. Right. Right.
• 32:07
  Because every business is different, right? But you'll have your core values and then grow from that. Like some things you'll be okay with, some things you won't, right? But it'll give you a clear focus of what direction you want your business to go in. I think that's the first thing.
• 32:25
  The second thing is I wouldn't have any fear. What's the worst that could possibly happen? You're going to be okay. Really, if you have a good work ethic, you are going to be okay. You will make decisions, mistakes along the way.
• 32:42
  That's how you learn and grow. I still make mistakes every day. I'm sure you do too, Demina. But the beauty of it is that's what gets you to the next level is making these mistakes.
• 32:53
  Davina: And learning from it. Yeah, absolutely.
• 32:55
  Kelly: Absolutely. And so I wouldn't have any fear, and I would hire a good team. So in order to grow or for you to get perhaps the life that you want, you need other people to get you there.
• 33:11
  Davina: Right. Right. So I wanna talk about that in terms of fear. I wanna talk about some specific fears that women law firm owners have. One of the biggest fears that women law firm owners have is hiring other lawyers.
• 33:23
  So how do you get how did you get you didn't feel fear at hiring other lawyers, or did you feel it and do it anyway?
• 33:31
  Kelly: I don't think I felt a fear because I had an understanding that in order for me to financially get where I need to go, I need someone else. And for me to live the lifestyle that I want because time is important to me. I want time to go visit my family in Florida. I want time to be able to do these things. So I had the knowledge from previous business experience to know that I just have to go for it.
• 34:03
  Again, I think the key is to high in hiring that right person. I'm slow to hire. I might interview a 100 different people before I'm hearing a decision. I think that's the key. I think there's always like a little like, okay, you know, you have to run math, right?
• 34:23
  Now I have to pay this person this amount of money. This is what I need to bring in. But that wasn't a fear, so to speak. I was just like, okay, this is the goal. This is what I need to do.
• 34:37
  This is
• 34:37
  Davina: my way. That's probably not a fear for you too because you know you're capable of bringing in the business.
• 34:45
  Kelly: I know how to survive. I think life has taught me that, you know, from a young age and, you know, going through a divorce and having nothing when, you know, I walked away with nothing but a mattress, so, and had kids to support. So I think that you learn how to survive. So whatever that means for you, right? So I think that's part of it.
• 35:10
  And I really do think like once you get that person in place, you're gonna be like, why did I wait so long to do this? And we're hiring another person now. But again, I'm slow to hire because I'm looking for that certain quality or, and I can't
• 35:30
  Davina: really- That's what I was going to ask you. That's what I was going to ask you is like, you say you're slow to hire. Why do you interview so many people?
• 35:38
  Kelly: I feel like I'm and sometimes I can't put my finger on it. I'm looking for a certain hustle, so to speak. Like I mentioned earlier, I feel like I can teach technical skills. Obviously you want someone that's intelligent and can learn these things, right? But I'm looking for somebody that has that certain like fire in them, know, the work ethic.
• 36:08
  If I don't feel like they're gonna have that, then I just pass and move on. Because my goal is, like, my team has been with me for quite a bit. I want my team member to be like a family member. I don't want turnover. I don't want the cost of the turnover.
• 36:26
  And plus when you're trying to grow, that's just detrimental. So if I selectively get the right person, then that will be able to bring us to the next level versus having to worry about turnover.
• 36:40
  Davina: How do you manage workflow? Because some people wait to hire until they they desperately need the help, and then they often wind up having to hire. Like, they don't get very many options that they have to hire from the options they get. How do you sort of manage that workflow when you know if I had another person, I could load them up with work, but I don't, but I'm gonna be slow to hire. So I'm you have to somehow manage the the number of cases that you take and things like that so that you don't get overloaded and not even have time to hire.
• 37:16
  Kelly: I think part of it is looking ahead. So I already know what our goals are. I know what our revenue is. I know what our growth is so I can see where it's going, right? So in order for me to be able to handle that, then we need another person here.
• 37:34
  And because I left my partner, I've been strategically focusing on certain areas as far from a marketing point of view. So I already have a plan of what I'm going to market, how I'm going to market, where that growth is going to come from. And I just wanna have the person in place before that happens.
• 37:55
  Davina: And you have found that marketing works when you turn on the faucet. So you have the ability to sort of turn the faucet on or turn it up or turn it down or whatever in in terms of your marketing because you've experienced in that.
• 38:14
  Kelly: Well, you know, we do a lot of social media. So, do a lot of educational events. We do webinars. We do segments on Facebook. We have Coffee with Kelly.
• 38:25
  We have Dying to Know, which focuses on probate. So we do a lot of like in your face kind of things as far as marketing. So I'll give you an example, right? So we haven't done a ton of marketing for probate. So we just launched, right, in January, our probate segment on social media.
• 38:47
  Right? So this is what I'm hiring the person for. This is where the business is going to come because then I'm just going to turn up the marketing for that. Because I very much look at a law firm as a business.
• 38:58
  Davina: Right. Right. Absolutely. We're on the same page.
• 39:04
  Kelly: Yeah. And what areas, what areas could use extra marketing so you could grow in those areas, right? Because I think that in any law firm, and I don't know if I'm always an advocate of this, like I was in a partnership where we had multiple offices and my thought process was, I don't think I need multiple processes. I just think I need multiple revenue streams. So that's kind of where our thoughts were different and where my focus is, right?
• 39:38
  So now I'm just looking at each different revenue stream
• 39:41
  Davina: and kind You of didn't need multiple offices. You can have one place. I'm always telling people, you know, who want to open in this state, open in that state, do this, do that. And I always say, well, are you making your million dollars using million dollars as just one marker? Are you making your million dollars where you are right now?
• 40:00
  Because if you aren't doing that right now, what you know, you don't have to go to all these other states. You could take your one focus, your one idea, and make your money. And then once that's operating and up and running and smooth and everything, then you if you say, well, you know, I wanna do this for this reason or that reason, and it's outside the realm of business success. It's something you know, my family's here, and I wanna be here or whatever. Then that makes sense, but you don't need to spread around to multiple states and multiple offices to make your millions.
• 40:32
  You can make your millions right where you are if you just pull the right levers. I mean, as a business person, do you agree with that?
• 40:39
  Kelly: Yeah. Because I've lived it. I had a partner with multiple offices in two different states, and I know what that life was like in the revenue. And I was just like, this doesn't make sense. Right?
• 40:52
  Instead of being spread out between all of these five different offices, I think I could make the same amount of revenue and grow it just with definite different focuses on revenue streams. So it can definitely be done, it will make your life a 100 times easier.
• 41:09
  Davina: And by revenue streams for you, you mean different sort of the practice areas and things like that, like promoting probate as well as estate planning and stuff like that?
• 41:19
  Kelly: Yeah. So we're very detailed. So I know, like if we have to focus on bringing in wills, like we have goals, right? So this is what we need to bring in for will plans. This is what we need to bring in for trust plans.
• 41:31
  This is what we need to bring in for a probate. And we break it down by revenue and client matters. This is what we need for trust administration. So I'm forward. So we look at them every month.
• 41:44
  And I think I shared this with you. I literally stare at it all day. Long.
• 41:50
  Davina: Yes. Part of why I brought
• 41:51
  Kelly: you on because
• 41:51
  Davina: you and I are so much alike in that. You like, we were talking about when you're a business person with a business head, you're and you're goal oriented, then you do you're constantly looking at your numbers, and you have a dashboard that you have up so you can see where everything stands every day at any given time. It's like having a ticker for the stock market. You have your dashboard you know right where you are. And I think the goal oriented, piece is so and it's really the difference between people who think like business owners and people who think like lawyers.
• 42:24
  Lawyers think about, you know, the technical aspects of help of helping people or getting the job done or winning or whatever it is. Right? Business owners look at it as, like you said, there's certain ways to business there's certain levers that you pull for if you want business success, and you have to pay attention. And so and the one thing you've mentioned several times is we set goals. We set goals.
• 42:48
  And in in each different area.
• 42:51
  Kelly: We set them. My whole team sets them. So not only am I looking at my dashboard every day, but so are they. So we have complete buy in, right? Everyone here is vested because we do a bonus system, right?
• 43:07
  So if we meet that goal, they get bonus. So we're all trying to get that goal.
• 43:15
  Davina: Right, right. Yeah, absolutely.
• 43:17
  Kelly: And it's not just me because I also feel like, and I think this is overlooked a little bit with law firms or any business. So I talk about this all the time. I have my main paralegal and she answers the phone. To me, I think that is one of the most important jobs here because she's vetting, she's pre selling, so to speak, she's pre qualifying. So I put a lot of value in that.
• 43:47
  And even when I'm like, okay, you know, we're only like two more matters away from our goal this month. She knows that we have to get that call and get them in the calendar before the end of the month.
• 43:59
  Davina: Right. Right. Right. And that keeps her motivated knowing that. And you also have the right person in the position, which can be can be the biggest challenge for people is how who who is the person answering the phone?
• 44:14
  Because a lot of people, when they're out looking for jobs, nobody dreams of being a receptionist. You know? So you have to create you have to have somebody who's really qualified in that job. You know how important that job is for the law firm. Think I can do it in a way that values that makes the employee feel valued as well.
• 44:35
  Kelly: Yeah. And that's what I was gonna say. I think the mindset in her, because she was also with me before, right, with my old partner. I think the mindset in her so it's funny because she loves doing it, right? And the mindset now is that she feels like she's just as important for us reaching our revenue goals.
• 44:55
  She is. And she is, Right? So now there's some sense of, and it was interesting to watch it switch. There's a sense of ownership and there's a sense of like, I'm contributing to our overall goals. And, you know, there's a lot of value in that for her and for us as a team.
• 45:16
  Davina: How did you get her to sort of make that switch?
• 45:20
  Kelly: Bonuses. I share. So some people will agree with this. Some people don't. You have to do whatever you feel is comfortable.
• 45:31
  I share my revenue. We come up with our goals together. So my whole team, we come up with annual financial goals. We come up with monthly goals, but I'm extremely transparent. And I know I have friends that own law firms and they're like, that's crazy.
• 45:48
  Why do you do that? This is how I feel. They already know what we're bringing in for money, so I don't know why I'm gonna hide it. They're doing the work, they're meeting with clients. They're pretty intelligent, so I'm not going to not be transparent about it.
• 46:08
  And I feel like the better we do, the better they do. And I would generally want them to have a great life. So why not share it with them?
• 46:18
  Davina: Do you ever, has anybody ever said to you or have you ever worried about somebody working for you, an attorney working for you and saying, well, I'm only making this amount of the money, and she's making all this money. I could be making all that money, so I'm gonna leave and take some clients and go make because that's that's something goes on in law firm owners' heads, many of them that I talk to. Have you ever had that thought or had somebody say that to you?
• 46:45
  Kelly: I've had plenty of people say it to me because let's face it, I was one of those people. You did the I was that attorney, but I look at things a little bit differently. I guess I'm not afraid of that. I really just want people to be better. So if that means that my associate starts bringing in a ton of money and wants to have a better life and make different decisions, I'm okay with that.
• 47:17
  And I know like people are like, why do you think like that? I don't know. There's plenty of money in the world for all of us to be successful. And I think part of why I do what I do is to make people better. So it's not just the law firm, but it's in life, right?
• 47:35
  And what I want to contribute and the way I want to give back. So I guess that doesn't actually cross my mind. And I've had conversations with my associate. I'm like, I want you to bring in you know, money. I want you to get clients.
• 47:50
  I want you to stay here. But I understand at some point you may feel differently. So let's just be honest about it.
• 47:58
  Davina: You don't try to
• 47:58
  Kelly: control People want grow. I want to support that.
• 48:01
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Well, we need to end.
• 48:05
  But before we do, I just wanna ask you one last question and that is what what thought do you want to leave the women law firm owners with who are listening to this podcast? Any final thoughts?
• 48:15
  Kelly: I think my final thought is like, you can do this. You don't have to doubt yourself. You will definitely make lots of pivots along the way, but you have a team of support system out there. So just reach out, bounce things off. But, just keep faith in yourself.
• 48:35
  You definitely got this.
• 48:37
  Davina: Thanks, Kelly. I appreciate it. I've enjoyed our conversation so much. It's been such a pleasure, and I knew you'd be a wonderful guest when you and I first spoke. So you shared a lot of wisdom on this on this episode, and I'm sure everybody will enjoy it.
• 48:49
  Thanks for being here.
• 48:50
  Kelly: Thank you so much for having me.
• 48:53
  Intro: If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in your business and your life, then you'll want to visit us at wealthywomanlawyer.com to learn more about how we help our clients create wealth generating law firms with ease.