Latest / The Game Business Show / Is Xbox making the right decisions? Plus, how AI is (and isn’t) transforming game localization

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Is Xbox making the right decisions? Plus, how AI is (and isn’t) transforming game localization · The Game Business Show

0:00
SPEAKER_02: This week we go deeper on the latest changes at Xbox.
0:03
SPEAKER_02: I report back from Tokyo Game Show and we dive into the world of video game localization.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to The Game Business Show.
0:14
SPEAKER_02: This week's edition is sponsored by Unreal Engine.
0:17
SPEAKER_02: Now, Unreal Fest Chicago took place back in June and if you were too busy making
0:21
SPEAKER_02: the next Smash 8 video game to attend, well,
0:24
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0:27
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0:29
SPEAKER_02: There are well over 60 sessions available now on
0:32
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0:35
SPEAKER_02: with more arriving every day.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: Delivered by both Epic's own developers and your peers in
0:41
SPEAKER_02: the industry including Halo Studios, Unknown Worlds and Riot Games.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: These sessions cover everything from world building and characters to optimization
0:48
SPEAKER_02: and profiling and more.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: Plus you can take a good look at what's just arrived in UE 5.8 and see what's next
0:55
SPEAKER_02: for Unreal Engine.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: You can check out the Unreal Engine YouTube channel or go and click on the link in
0:59
SPEAKER_02: the newsletter attached with this very show.
1:02
SPEAKER_02: Speaking of show.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: Let's begin.
1:05
SPEAKER_02: So I'm just back from Tokyo Game Show.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: I'm fully branded.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you can see with the Nintendo Museum.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: It was fascinating.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: But before I give some thoughts on Tokyo and Japan,
1:14
SPEAKER_02: I think we best dive into the big story of the week.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: And that big story is,
1:19
SPEAKER_02: of course,
1:19
SPEAKER_02: Xbox merging some studios and making further cuts as part of its reorganization,
1:24
SPEAKER_02: or rather reset.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: That it announced in July.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: Now this week it has done several things.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: It has cut back the Halo Studios team significantly to just
1:33
SPEAKER_02: a core group supporting existing Halo titles that are in the market already.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: It has now handed the Halo IP to Activision which will be building
1:41
SPEAKER_02: a new purpose-built team to work on future Halo projects.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: It's announced that it's failed to find a buyer for Ninja Theory
1:47
SPEAKER_02: after two deals fell through and
1:49
SPEAKER_02: the studio now faces closure barring any last minute saviors.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: Undead Labs' buyer fell through too and the studio is now going independent with
1:57
SPEAKER_02: an unnamed publisher taking over State of Decay 3.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: As a result of the independence, Undead Labs is now making cuts to the team.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: UK developer Rare, by the team behind Sea of Thieves, is now part of Activision 2.
2:09
SPEAKER_02: There are a handful of cuts at that studio.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: Age of Empires production House World's Edge is also reporting to Activision.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: There are numerous cuts at that studio too.
2:17
SPEAKER_02: Grounded developer Obsidian will now report to Bethesda.
2:20
SPEAKER_02: It was already making a new Fallout game for the publisher.
2:23
SPEAKER_02: Turn 10,
2:23
SPEAKER_02: which used to make Forza Motorsport and is now largely just managing
2:26
SPEAKER_02: the Forza tech engine,
2:27
SPEAKER_02: is merging with Playground Games,
2:29
SPEAKER_02: the studio that uses the engine for its Forza Horizon and Fable games.
2:33
SPEAKER_02: In total,
2:33
SPEAKER_02: there were 206 job cuts that are happening as a result of all this,
2:36
SPEAKER_02: including a number of losses from the Xbox Game Studios Central and leadership team.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: Xbox says it is two-thirds of the way through its planned cuts.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: It's quite significant news.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: And to kick off today's show,
2:47
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to provide some insight,
2:48
SPEAKER_02: explanation and maybe some insider information on what this is all about,
2:51
SPEAKER_02: plus opinion, of course.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: But let's sort of recap how we got here.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: Earlier this year, Xbox leader Phil Spencer stepped down from his role.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: He was replaced by a newbie to the video game world in Asha Sharma.
3:03
SPEAKER_02: Now, Sharma made some immediate changes, some of them minor, like changing the Xbox branding.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: And some of them more significant,
3:09
SPEAKER_02: like reducing the price of Game Pass and hiring a new leadership team,
3:12
SPEAKER_02: including Chief Strategy Officer Matthew Ball and COO Helen Chang.
3:17
SPEAKER_02: She has inherited a business that is in poor shape.
3:21
SPEAKER_02: Xbox has spent a lot of money buying a lot of studios in an effort
3:25
SPEAKER_02: to bolster its games portfolio,
3:27
SPEAKER_02: primarily to accelerate its Game Pass subscription business.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: It hasn't worked for numerous reasons.
3:33
SPEAKER_02: Game Pass hasn't grown to the expected level.
3:36
SPEAKER_02: The games themselves haven't connected.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: Xbox console sales have fallen and the business is facing some serious challenges.
3:44
SPEAKER_02: In particular, the margin on the Xbox business is poor and growth is non-existent.
3:49
SPEAKER_02: That needs to change.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: The company has come up with a plan that focuses on big bets and core franchises
3:55
SPEAKER_02: and not smaller indie-like games.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: It wants to push the platform harder and is making certain titles exclusive to
4:01
SPEAKER_02: the console to try and boost console sales and engagement.
4:05
SPEAKER_02: This new strategy requires the company to invest in certain areas and it is investing.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: It's just signed a big game from Hideo Kojima,
4:13
SPEAKER_02: for example,
4:13
SPEAKER_02: with a budget reportedly around $400 million and it's investing in a new Halo team
4:18
SPEAKER_02: as well.
4:19
SPEAKER_02: But it also requires cutting things it doesn't need that isn't working
4:23
SPEAKER_02: and streamlining operations.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: Those cuts include divesting of certain studios.
4:27
SPEAKER_02: The studios Double Fine,
4:29
SPEAKER_02: which is known for Cyclinauts and Keeper,
4:31
SPEAKER_02: and Compulsion,
4:31
SPEAKER_02: which is known for South of Midnight, have been returned to independence.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: Now both studios face an uncertain time right now,
4:37
SPEAKER_02: but they've been able to retain their IP,
4:39
SPEAKER_02: which gives them a fighting chance in a challenging industry.
4:43
SPEAKER_02: Xbox had planned to sell state of decay developer undead labs
4:46
SPEAKER_02: and hellblade studio ninja theory in july they said they had buyers for both studios
4:50
SPEAKER_02: but deals have fallen through at one point undead labs was being acquired
4:55
SPEAKER_02: by splash damage that's the uk studio that xbox fans might know as the team
4:59
SPEAKER_02: behind gears tactics it used to be owned by tencent splash damage is now backed
5:03
SPEAKER_02: by emona capital emona capital Was providing the money for this,
5:07
SPEAKER_02: Emona also funds Secret Mode,
5:08
SPEAKER_02: which is the publisher behind Star Wars Galactic Racer,
5:11
SPEAKER_02: and Relic, the strategy studio behind, you know, Company Heroes.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: You've probably heard of them.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: For whatever reason, though, that deal has fallen through.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: I've heard there are other deals being discussed.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: I don't know anything about those.
5:22
SPEAKER_02: Somebody mentioned Korea at one point.
5:23
SPEAKER_02: But regardless, I know about that one.
5:25
SPEAKER_02: Now Ninja Theory had two interested parties according to Xbox.
5:29
SPEAKER_02: I have heard names and who they might be but have been unable to verify them
5:32
SPEAKER_02: so I won't mention them here.
5:34
SPEAKER_02: Both of those deals collapsed.
5:36
SPEAKER_02: I know two investors that kicked the tires on Ninja Theory so just sort of investigate.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: And they both told me the cost of the team was very high,
5:45
SPEAKER_02: which was ultimately what deterred them from going further.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: And it's a shame.
5:49
SPEAKER_02: One of my friends at Xbox Game Studios told me that Senua,
5:52
SPEAKER_02: which is the next game that Ninja Theory is making,
5:54
SPEAKER_02: is shaping up very well and is a significant improvement
5:57
SPEAKER_02: over last year's Hellblade 2.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: And UK law means that the studio isn't being closed today,
6:03
SPEAKER_02: but staff are being put on consultation,
6:04
SPEAKER_02: which gives Xbox around six weeks to try and secure a buyer before closing
6:08
SPEAKER_02: the Cambridge-based company.
6:11
SPEAKER_02: It feels unlikely at this stage, but you never know, we have had last-minute saviors before.
6:16
SPEAKER_02: The fifth studio Xbox is divesting from is Arcane Lyon, which is working on a Blade game.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: And the consultation that studio extends to the end of the year.
6:23
SPEAKER_02: French law is very different to most markets.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: And Xbox will hope it can secure a new home for the team before then.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: Now, over at Rare,
6:33
SPEAKER_02: there have been some cuts to the firm's operational teams, HR and places like that.
6:38
SPEAKER_02: But not the development team specifically.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: The studio's main title is Sea of Thieves,
6:41
SPEAKER_02: which is one of my favourite games,
6:43
SPEAKER_02: which has been a big success, but it has been declining over the last few years.
6:47
SPEAKER_02: Last year it had its Everwild project cancelled.
6:49
SPEAKER_02: That led to some redundancies at Rare,
6:51
SPEAKER_02: but the company was able to mitigate that a little bit by moving staff onto Sea
6:55
SPEAKER_02: of Thieves and instead cut back on the amount of outsourcing it was doing.
6:59
SPEAKER_02: Rare is working on other projects.
7:01
SPEAKER_02: It will be down to Activision to decide whether those projects continue.
7:04
SPEAKER_02: I hope they do.
7:05
SPEAKER_02: I've got an entire thesis on Rare, almost an entire other episode where I can make this case.
7:10
SPEAKER_02: I believe they would be a very successful independent business, assuming they can keep their IP.
7:15
SPEAKER_02: I think there's a huge opportunity with its legacy,
7:17
SPEAKER_02: content,
7:17
SPEAKER_02: they have 40 years worth of games,
7:19
SPEAKER_02: the vast majority of which are not available on Steam or Nintendo, in fact.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: You can get more rare games on,
7:25
SPEAKER_02: oh no, I've got it over there, like a Blaze handheld than you can on most platforms.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure that that's sort of a big focus on legacy business and porting
7:34
SPEAKER_02: and remastering fits with what Microsoft wants or needs.
7:38
SPEAKER_02: Growth.
7:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure that delivers growth.
7:39
SPEAKER_02: It delivers a strong foundation of profit or revenue.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: But I think that can be quite significant for an independent business.
7:45
SPEAKER_02: I also think as a studio, they offer something different in terms of games they make.
7:49
SPEAKER_02: CFE is a very family-focused live service experience.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: I used to do these events at EGX and Comic-Con,
7:54
SPEAKER_02: and I was always fascinated by watching mums and dads and their kids
7:56
SPEAKER_02: who play CFE together.
7:57
SPEAKER_02: I thought it was wonderful.
7:58
SPEAKER_02: I think it's a unique company.
8:00
SPEAKER_02: I think they make unique games, and I'm sure there will be investors interested in that.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: And maybe, hey, maybe Activision is interested in that.
8:06
SPEAKER_02: We'll have to see.
8:08
SPEAKER_02: One little observation about Rare, in 2002, Nintendo had a first option to buy Rare.
8:14
SPEAKER_02: They already owned 49% of the company, and they had the option to buy the remaining 51%.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: The owners of Rare, Chris and Tim Stamper, wanted to sell their 51%.
8:22
SPEAKER_02: It declined to do that.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: Nintendo said they weren't going to do it.
8:25
SPEAKER_02: So that triggered a bidding war for those people to buy Rare.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: By the end of that war, two companies remained.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: Rare had to choose between two offers.
8:33
SPEAKER_02: One of those companies was, of course, Xbox, which eventually acquired the studio.
8:39
SPEAKER_02: Activision.
8:40
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, moving on, World's Edge is also under Activision.
8:44
SPEAKER_02: It isn't quite like the studio's World's Edge,
8:46
SPEAKER_02: as it typically partners with other developers to make the games and remasters.
8:50
SPEAKER_02: Those games are specifically on the Age of Empires and Age of Mythology IPs.
8:54
SPEAKER_02: It's more a sensential production group, basically.
8:56
SPEAKER_02: But even so, the team has been severely impacted by cuts as a result of this move.
8:59
SPEAKER_02: According to reports online, they had a game cancelled.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: Obsidian is now under Bethesda.
9:04
SPEAKER_02: It's Loversy Grounded,
9:05
SPEAKER_02: which is the sort of Honey,
9:07
SPEAKER_02: I Shont the Kids type game, and is now working on a new Fallout.
9:10
SPEAKER_02: According to my sources there, people aren't happy.
9:13
SPEAKER_02: They had their own autonomy.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: They were able to make the games they wanted to make.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: They were given plenty of freedom.
9:17
SPEAKER_02: Now, frankly, they don't have that.
9:19
SPEAKER_02: They're now part of a different organisation.
9:21
SPEAKER_02: This wasn't the dream.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't what was pitched.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: But ultimately,
9:26
SPEAKER_02: The games it released last year,
9:27
SPEAKER_02: the release 3, Avowed,
9:28
SPEAKER_02: The Outer Worlds 2,
9:29
SPEAKER_02: and Grounded,
9:30
SPEAKER_02: they were well received,
9:31
SPEAKER_02: they're decent games,
9:32
SPEAKER_02: but they just didn't connect for whatever reason,
9:34
SPEAKER_02: they didn't reach a large enough audience, it's a shame.
9:36
SPEAKER_02: The studio just hasn't been able to deliver the commercial success that Xbox required.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: Being able to keep some of the team together,
9:42
SPEAKER_02: working on a big brand like Fallout,
9:44
SPEAKER_02: I think,
9:45
SPEAKER_02: given time, will be seen as a good result, considering what was the other option.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: It's just hopefully they get to retain what makes Obsidian Obsidian,
9:52
SPEAKER_02: and I'm sure that, you know, everybody wants that.
9:55
SPEAKER_02: Now there is industry anger and frustration at Xbox for the decisions that have led
9:59
SPEAKER_02: to this situation.
10:01
SPEAKER_02: But few in the business will argue that change hasn't been necessary.
10:04
SPEAKER_02: And as brutal as these changes are, they do seem, at least in my view, to be the right cause.
10:10
SPEAKER_02: Xbox is removing studios that, yes, have made great games.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: They've not been financially successful.
10:16
SPEAKER_02: In fact, they've lost money.
10:17
SPEAKER_02: More importantly, they're not making the games that Xbox wants to focus on.
10:21
SPEAKER_02: Is cutting double fine going to make a material difference to Xbox's bottom line?
10:26
SPEAKER_02: Not really.
10:27
SPEAKER_02: But by removing the teams and its games,
10:28
SPEAKER_02: Xbox can put its energy into other more potentially lucrative areas,
10:31
SPEAKER_02: areas that it feels is better suited for them.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: And hopefully these studios can still find their feet in an independent capacity.
10:38
SPEAKER_02: The biggest news from all this, of course, is around Halo Studios.
10:41
SPEAKER_02: Halo Studios is now just supporting the Halo games that are already in market.
10:45
SPEAKER_02: That's games like the Master Chief Collection, for instance, and Halo Infinite.
10:49
SPEAKER_02: Activision is building a new team to take the series forward.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: This move is less about cutting costs and more about getting Halo moving again.
10:56
SPEAKER_02: Ever since Bungie left the franchise in 2010,
10:58
SPEAKER_02: Halo has never been the same from a business point of view.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: It was once one of the world's leading shooters.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: In 2007, Halo 3 was the biggest entertainment launch of all time back then, bigger than GTA.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: Today, it is a shadow of that.
11:11
SPEAKER_02: Bungie was succeeded by a new studio called 343 which was later rebranded Halo Studios.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: It's not had the best success despite some bold attempts.
11:20
SPEAKER_02: It's also missed deadlines.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: Halo Infinite was supposed to be a major relaunch for the IP but it arrived
11:24
SPEAKER_02: a year late and underperformed.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: There are analysts and competitors in the industry that highlight that as
11:29
SPEAKER_02: the key moment when they knew this generation for Xbox was lost.
11:34
SPEAKER_02: Now there are many reasons Halo has waned beyond the product themselves.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: The genre has moved on and sometimes franchises just fade away over time.
11:41
SPEAKER_02: There's just nothing you can do about it.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: Nevertheless, Xbox believes they can rejuvenate it.
11:45
SPEAKER_02: There is something still in that Halo brand.
11:47
SPEAKER_02: And Activision is charged with building that team.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: It actually makes a lot of sense.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: When Xbox bought Activision,
11:53
SPEAKER_02: I commented at the time,
11:54
SPEAKER_02: I argued at the time,
11:55
SPEAKER_02: that it might make sense to put the Call of Duty publisher in charge of all
11:58
SPEAKER_02: of Xbox's studios, including the Bethesda studios actually.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: Look, Activision isn't flawless,
12:03
SPEAKER_02: it's made plenty of mistakes,
12:04
SPEAKER_02: but broadly speaking its games are generally good quality,
12:07
SPEAKER_02: they arrive on time, and often on budget.
12:10
SPEAKER_02: Putting Halo under the control of the Call of Duty company feels like
12:12
SPEAKER_02: a sensible move,
12:13
SPEAKER_02: in fact putting most of these companies under Activision feels like a sensible move.
12:17
SPEAKER_02: It's no guarantee of success of course,
12:19
SPEAKER_02: Activision had Bungie's destiny for a while and struggled with that in the end,
12:22
SPEAKER_02: Call of Duty is having a bit of a low moment right now too,
12:24
SPEAKER_02: although I hear good things about Modern Warfare 4,
12:27
SPEAKER_02: but on paper you can see why Activision would be given the keys to Halo.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: And that's something worth commenting on actually, because on paper this makes sense.
12:36
SPEAKER_02: But games aren't made on paper,
12:38
SPEAKER_02: they're made by people,
12:39
SPEAKER_02: they're made by teams,
12:40
SPEAKER_02: they're made by studios with distinct voices and visions and cultures.
12:43
SPEAKER_02: These things take time to cultivate.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: Building a new team might sound exciting,
12:48
SPEAKER_02: and it is,
12:49
SPEAKER_02: but actually there's an argument to be made that an existing group A group
12:51
SPEAKER_02: who know each other,
12:52
SPEAKER_02: who have worked together across multiple projects,
12:55
SPEAKER_02: they might be better placed at taking a crack at rescuing a franchise like Halo,
12:59
SPEAKER_02: but hey, perhaps Rare might be interested in taking on Halo.
13:02
SPEAKER_02: It's such a shame that Xbox is letting Arkane Leon go,
13:04
SPEAKER_02: I'd bet they'd make a really unique Halo game.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: Now, moving beyond this week's news,
13:11
SPEAKER_02: there are three studios that remain within the Xbox Game Studios ecosystem.
13:15
SPEAKER_02: So there's three divisions to Xbox, Bethesda, Activision, Xbox Game Studios.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: The three studios that's still under XGS,
13:23
SPEAKER_02: Halo is the studios as well,
13:24
SPEAKER_02: actually,
13:24
SPEAKER_02: so maybe it's four,
13:25
SPEAKER_02: is Gears of War developer The Coalition,
13:27
SPEAKER_02: Fable and Forza Horizon Studio Playground Games, and Clockwork Revolution Creator.
13:31
SPEAKER_02: In exile, all three studios have a new game out over the next 12-ish months.
13:36
SPEAKER_02: It feels like Xbox is keeping things as they are while these companies work on these projects.
13:40
SPEAKER_02: Let's not distract them.
13:42
SPEAKER_02: But you'd have to imagine they too will end up reporting into Activision or Bethesda
13:46
SPEAKER_02: at some point.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: And thus, the Xbox Game Studios organization will close entirely.
13:52
SPEAKER_02: Will this save Xbox?
13:55
SPEAKER_02: In the immediate term, these challenges will largely just help Xbox's margins.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: So you've got over 3,000 fewer employees combined with hopefully a better year
14:03
SPEAKER_02: for Call of Duty and a GTA bump on hardware.
14:06
SPEAKER_02: All of that could really benefit in the near term, hopefully.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: But Halo going to Activision,
14:12
SPEAKER_02: the signing of another Kojima game,
14:14
SPEAKER_02: we're not going to see the results of these for five, six, maybe even seven years.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: But what this tells me is that this is an Xbox that is in it for the long term.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: And of course,
14:24
SPEAKER_02: success will be decided,
14:26
SPEAKER_02: as it always is in this industry, on the strength of the video games themselves.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: Right.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: Before I introduce our interview this week, which is with Keyword Studios.
14:36
SPEAKER_02: We're talking about localization.
14:38
SPEAKER_02: I wanted to tell you what I've been doing this week because I've spent
14:40
SPEAKER_02: the last eight days in Tokyo.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: It's my first trip to Japan.
14:43
SPEAKER_02: I was there specifically to attend Tokyo Game Show and to get to know the video game industry.
14:48
SPEAKER_02: And it was a really fascinating experience.
14:50
SPEAKER_02: Now, if you watched Here's the Dream this week,
14:52
SPEAKER_02: which is the little podcast I do on Monday for paying subscribers,
14:55
SPEAKER_02: if you'd be interested in having a paid subscriber, please do it.
14:58
SPEAKER_02: It's really important for us to help support us.
15:01
SPEAKER_02: You all know I had some takeaways from the event,
15:03
SPEAKER_02: and I'm not going to repeat all of them here,
15:05
SPEAKER_02: but I wanted to dive into one element that I didn't really talk that much about,
15:09
SPEAKER_02: which is just how nostalgic the Japanese video game industry is.
15:12
SPEAKER_02: If you take Tokyo Game Show specifically, It was awash with remakes and reboots.
15:17
SPEAKER_02: Final Fantasy VII,
15:18
SPEAKER_02: Revelation led the way, and Crazy Taxi was there, and Mega Man, and Castlevania.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: Pokemon developer Game Freak was showing a new mobile game,
15:25
SPEAKER_02: but promoting it by bringing back a fanzine it used to make in the 1980s.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: For those that don't know, Game Freak started life as a video game fanzine.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: There's still a thriving games retail scene in Japan.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: I visited multiple shops while I was there,
15:37
SPEAKER_02: and they had huge video game sections like they used to be in the UK.
15:41
SPEAKER_02: Okay, the majority of those sections were just Nintendo stuff,
15:43
SPEAKER_02: but it's been a long time since I've seen quite so many games
15:46
SPEAKER_02: and merchandise being sold in physical shops.
15:48
SPEAKER_02: And of course all those shops have big displays promoting
15:51
SPEAKER_02: the ultimate nostalgia game that's coming out,
15:52
SPEAKER_02: The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time Remake.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: There wasn't a GTA 6 in sight.
15:57
SPEAKER_02: A trip I did for myself, one in Japan, was the Nintendo Museum.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: I actually might write about that next week because it was fascinating.
16:05
SPEAKER_02: But that whole concept is nostalgia.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: It's not really a museum.
16:08
SPEAKER_02: There's very little information there.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: There's no audio guide.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: It's just lots of pretty pictures and displays and reminders of Nintendo's past.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: It was some fun interactive exhibits as well that also do the same thing.
16:19
SPEAKER_02: Nostalgia booming games and entertainment is everywhere,
16:22
SPEAKER_02: but it's apparent to me it's a real driving force in Japan, certainly on console.
16:26
SPEAKER_02: Now could there be a risk of stagnation?
16:28
SPEAKER_02: We're seeing an increasing number of Japanese gamers turn to PC titles,
16:31
SPEAKER_02: that segment of the industry has doubled over the last five years in Japan,
16:34
SPEAKER_02: and PC games on Steam are typically more experimental,
16:37
SPEAKER_02: that's where you get a lot more new IPs and indie projects.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: So is Japan's gamers crying out for some new things
16:43
SPEAKER_02: which they're not necessarily seeing on console?
16:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, maybe.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: But there was new stuff at TGS as well.
16:49
SPEAKER_02: It's not fair to say it was all big brands.
16:51
SPEAKER_02: Let's say Game Freak was there with two new games.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: Stranger Than Heaven from Sega was a new IP mostly.
16:56
SPEAKER_02: Kojima's upcoming two games are all new as well.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: So there is a smattering of new stuff going on and I'm sure there's more working
17:01
SPEAKER_02: behind the scenes.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: But my big takeaway from TGS was just how the industry feels a little bit old,
17:07
SPEAKER_02: a little bit stuck in the past maybe.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: And all that might come across as a criticism.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: As an older gamer myself, I kind of loved it.
17:16
SPEAKER_02: Right, our big feature segment this week is on video game localization.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: Now, during our visit to Gamescom,
17:21
SPEAKER_02: which feels like a lifetime ago,
17:22
SPEAKER_02: but was actually only last month,
17:24
SPEAKER_02: I managed to chat to two major experts in video game localization in the form
17:28
SPEAKER_02: of Dominic Kelly,
17:29
SPEAKER_02: who is CE's senior technology and solutions And Romina Francescina,
17:35
SPEAKER_02: who is director of products, offers solutions and implementation at Keywords.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: Very big job titles there.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: I used to work in localization.
17:41
SPEAKER_02: If you don't know, it was my first job in video games.
17:43
SPEAKER_02: I worked in localization QA,
17:45
SPEAKER_02: which meant I would play games in all sorts of different languages,
17:48
SPEAKER_02: from a standard one like English or German to more complicated languages like Greek
17:52
SPEAKER_02: or Turkish.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: My job was to play the game,
17:55
SPEAKER_02: identify any moments where the text didn't fit in the text boxes or where
17:58
SPEAKER_02: the text overlapped or was clipped.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: Because of the language, their word lengths are different, right?
18:03
SPEAKER_02: I also had to basically play the game for the translators and take screenshots
18:06
SPEAKER_02: of all the text so they could spot any moments where things didn't read right
18:09
SPEAKER_02: or how they could cut things down so they could all fit, that kind of stuff.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: And that was a long time ago.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: You know, you're talking, I think I started in 2006 and I was there in 2007.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: But I've always had a strong fascination in that work because since then,
18:21
SPEAKER_02: video games have become more complex, more global, more culturally important.
18:25
SPEAKER_02: So I thought,
18:26
SPEAKER_02: why not take up a chance to chat about this world,
18:28
SPEAKER_02: find out how it's changing, what role is AI taking in sort of changing this space?
18:34
SPEAKER_02: So check out my interview.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: Here's my chat with Romina and Dominic.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: Hello, welcome to the show.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: We were just on the show floor at Gamescom,
18:42
SPEAKER_02: and I had an interview with Pearl Abyss, who do the Crimson Desert game.
18:45
SPEAKER_02: And I was talking to them about where they think the next bit of growth was gonna come from.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: And they were telling me they were fully localizing the game in a bunch of languages.
18:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think it was localized a bit in some...
18:54
SPEAKER_02: But you know, they were doing the full voice work.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: And I was a bit surprised they hadn't done that already.
19:01
SPEAKER_02: Is that still a thing, DP?
19:02
SPEAKER_02: Are there any games still coming out that aren't hitting most major markets?
19:06
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, yes.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: Languages clearly do represent cost, right?
19:13
SPEAKER_00: And our customers need to think about where they want to launch their games,
19:18
SPEAKER_00: whether the local markets speak English as a fluent language within the market.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: So, unfortunately, yes,
19:24
SPEAKER_00: you will be surprised how many games still struggle to come Language first, right?
19:30
SPEAKER_00: Or at least release at the same time.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
19:33
SPEAKER_02: What's the biggest roadblock?
19:34
SPEAKER_02: What's... Is it money?
19:38
SPEAKER_00: I would say yes.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: Money is a significant contributor to that.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: But also,
19:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:45
SPEAKER_00: when you talk about localization and kind of the storytelling,
19:50
SPEAKER_00: language can also be a barrier in terms of how you Talk to another culture.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: How do you translate the message?
19:58
SPEAKER_00: And it needs strategy and strategy takes time.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: So leaving the financial side aside,
20:04
SPEAKER_00: localization requires the time to think about the strategy of localization.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: So when you do release it, the strategy is right and it does justice to the game.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
20:14
SPEAKER_02: So give me some examples of that.
20:16
SPEAKER_02: It sounds interesting.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: So when you think about strategy for translation,
20:19
SPEAKER_00: you You not only think about the content itself,
20:22
SPEAKER_00: but whether you want to bring the gamer to the game,
20:26
SPEAKER_00: or you want to take the game to the gamer, right?
20:30
SPEAKER_00: And the process of designing that takes time,
20:34
SPEAKER_00: it takes iteration,
20:35
SPEAKER_00: it takes effort,
20:38
SPEAKER_00: it takes the time to think what is the strategy,
20:42
SPEAKER_00: how to apply it,
20:44
SPEAKER_00: and What are the mechanisms, in a way, to make that happen properly?
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Because it's not just part of the game.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: The strategy needs to carry through.
20:54
SPEAKER_02: So when you say bring the game to the gamer,
20:57
SPEAKER_02: do you mean like you're gonna take a game that might be built...
21:01
SPEAKER_02: What springs to mind here is Jagex.
21:03
SPEAKER_02: I spoke to them recently.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: They've just had a lot of success with RuneScape in China.
21:07
SPEAKER_02: And they didn't think they were going to because RuneScape is incredibly British.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: Right.
21:11
SPEAKER_02: And they thought our game is very British.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: We can't change that.
21:14
SPEAKER_02: They decided to take their game to China.
21:16
SPEAKER_02: And actually it's turned out there was an audience that liked that sort of thing in China.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Strategy doesn't necessarily mean you digest things on behalf of the gamer.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: Strategy means you make a decision on how much you stretch them.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: So there will be situations where staying true to the culture of
21:38
SPEAKER_00: the source is what will interest the gamers, right?
21:43
SPEAKER_00: The example that you're giving,
21:44
SPEAKER_00: clearly there was an audience ready to digest the game in its more natural form.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: But there will be other games that need a little bit more explaining or
21:55
SPEAKER_00: a little bit more adjusting so it becomes more familiar to the gamer.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I mean by stretching the gamer or stretching the game.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: I'm surprised there's not more companies into it,
22:05
SPEAKER_02: because I, well,
22:07
SPEAKER_02: maybe I'm not surprised,
22:08
SPEAKER_02: but I look at the popular,
22:10
SPEAKER_02: the Wuxia games, for instance, coming out of China into the West.
22:12
SPEAKER_02: I look at the success of K-pop and Squid Game and K-dramas and all
22:17
SPEAKER_02: that stuff coming out of,
22:18
SPEAKER_02: how many companies at Gamescom are from the East, and they're coming to Europe.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: And rather than, hey, how do we adapt this for Europe?
22:26
SPEAKER_02: How do we adapt this for the UK?
22:26
SPEAKER_02: How do we adapt this for America?
22:28
SPEAKER_02: They're kind of leaning into the fact that it's unique to that culture.
22:32
SPEAKER_02: We're starting to see things that we assumed wouldn't work and other markets work.
22:36
SPEAKER_02: And I would have thought that would be a wonderful opportunity for a lot
22:39
SPEAKER_02: of companies that perhaps don't realize that their game might do really well
22:41
SPEAKER_02: in markets they don't really even think about.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: I suspect there is a little bit of timing, right?
22:47
SPEAKER_00: So through other media, markets are exposed to cultures, right?
22:53
SPEAKER_00: So there may be I'm sure this is a more complex thing than just the games resonating.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: There is a readiness to digest or maybe consume different cultures.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: So it's convenient, it gives you an experience without necessarily having to travel far.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: So there is that readiness and there is the exposure.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: The secret of success is not necessarily ready-made, right?
23:22
SPEAKER_00: So you can't just say, oh, yeah, any K-pop game will be successful.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: There will have to be something brilliant in that storytelling for people to want to consume it.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
23:36
SPEAKER_00: we know that through history,
23:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
23:37
SPEAKER_00: there are different periods where there may be Games from a specific region
23:42
SPEAKER_00: that become more of a general interest or a specific genre as well.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: So this is where the elements or all of the moving parts needs to be ready for
23:52
SPEAKER_00: the consumption of the game.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: But again,
23:55
SPEAKER_00: with consumers having access to cultures,
23:59
SPEAKER_00: I think that being able to bring a game to the audience,
24:03
SPEAKER_00: it's easier than it's been before.
24:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, digital was kind of beforehand.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: If I wanted to watch something from,
24:09
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, Korea, I'd have to find a special shop or something that sold the DVD.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: Now it's on Netflix, right?
24:16
SPEAKER_01: That's a very good point because the kind of things we're seeing in games now,
24:21
SPEAKER_01: They're everywhere too.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: So Netflix is producing series,
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Amazon is producing series, and then there's a game or vice versa.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: There's a game.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: And so it's being exposed and then they might be seeing,
24:31
SPEAKER_01: okay, like the Jagex example you gave us, right?
24:35
SPEAKER_01: Very, very British,
24:36
SPEAKER_01: colloquial,
24:37
SPEAKER_01: Monty Python-esque,
24:38
SPEAKER_01: Knights of the Round Table jumping around and all this kind of stuff.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: Do you listen to that episode?
24:43
SPEAKER_01: There was lots of it, right?
24:45
SPEAKER_01: And I know because I've seen lots of that content and kind I know them quite well.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: I've been out to see them and they're great people and they understood that
24:53
SPEAKER_01: that uniqueness of their game was what people loved about it.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: But Monty Python as the actual cultural stuff that exposed,
25:00
SPEAKER_01: that probably wasn't when we were watching it,
25:03
SPEAKER_01: it wasn't in China, but it slowly creeped out.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: Monty Python was not anywhere near in America.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: Now it's huge.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Everyone's out there.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes it takes that timing to creep out.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: For those kind of like uniquenesses, like,
25:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:16
SPEAKER_01: for me being Irish, like a Father Ted thing is very quote cool Irish, right?
25:20
SPEAKER_01: And once you understand that,
25:21
SPEAKER_01: you can understand most Irish humour because there's a lot of it there.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: So that kind of stuff, it doesn't really get exposed to people.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: But now it's on Netflix.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: Now it's everywhere.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: You can see a lot more.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, the exposure to it.
25:33
SPEAKER_02: Are there any things that customers are asking for languages or regions
25:38
SPEAKER_02: that that's different,
25:39
SPEAKER_02: that's new, that's sort of exploding or blowing up for you at the moment?
25:42
SPEAKER_01: I think they're asking a lot about emerging markets.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: So they obviously have been producing their games in lots of different countries.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: You know,
25:50
SPEAKER_01: they have stable user bases,
25:52
SPEAKER_01: but now they're asking the questions,
25:53
SPEAKER_01: well, if we were to localize in this language, would we get a user base in that?
25:58
SPEAKER_01: And they have to do a bit of research behind it themselves.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: So are there games that are already translating in those markets?
26:03
SPEAKER_01: Is there a user base for that type of game?
26:06
SPEAKER_01: Is there something trending out there that is linked to our game that we can use?
26:10
SPEAKER_01: And then what's the level of English in that market?
26:13
SPEAKER_01: And just because it is in English doesn't necessarily mean they speak a lot
26:16
SPEAKER_01: of English doesn't mean that they wouldn't want to use it more if it was Dutch
26:20
SPEAKER_01: or more if it was, I don't know, Hindi or something like that.
26:23
SPEAKER_02: Is there any specific markets you're thinking of when you say that?
26:27
SPEAKER_00: At the moment we're not Korea.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: You gave it as an example, right?
26:33
SPEAKER_00: There is a lot of interest in that.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: I would say, at the moment, the way the games travel is going both ways, right?
26:42
SPEAKER_00: So we don't only have games going from west to the east.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: There is a lot of interest to bring games from the east to the west.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you've seen it.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: This may be tangential,
26:54
SPEAKER_00: but I don't know if you've seen the news about this new Disney World type of city
27:00
SPEAKER_00: that is being planned in France that will be dedicated to Manga and anime.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: So, you know,
27:09
SPEAKER_00: an investment like that shows the interest in that type of content coming from east
27:14
SPEAKER_00: to west.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:15
SPEAKER_02: I worked very briefly in Localization QA and I used to test games in like Greek or
27:21
SPEAKER_02: Or, um, uh, Polish or something.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: And what I used to be amazed,
27:24
SPEAKER_02: what used to amaze me sometimes is that there'd be a word that doesn't fit in
27:28
SPEAKER_02: the box, right?
27:29
SPEAKER_02: And so they would have to cut it down and they would cut it down to the point
27:32
SPEAKER_02: where it was almost meaningless.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: Like I thought that does any,
27:35
SPEAKER_02: do people in Poland know that what those two letters supposed to represent?
27:39
SPEAKER_00: And does that, does that still happen?
27:40
SPEAKER_00: Because I,
27:41
SPEAKER_00: is that,
27:41
SPEAKER_00: that feels like
27:43
SPEAKER_02: Kind of misses the point of potentially appealing in that market.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, it's not a problem that has disappeared.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: The idea of culturalization of games has become very prominent.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: Developers understand it.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: And the industry is very mature as well.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, making jobs work, etc.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: There are so many bad examples out there.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: There is enough history,
28:11
SPEAKER_00: I suppose,
28:12
SPEAKER_00: to indicate what are the things that,
28:15
SPEAKER_00: forget about the content itself,
28:17
SPEAKER_00: you know, individuals working in the industry want to get it right.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: They want to make sure that there is an oversimplified version of the content
28:26
SPEAKER_00: that doesn't tell the story anymore.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Are there cases?
28:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there still are.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: But interestingly enough,
28:32
SPEAKER_00: with some of the technology that is out there,
28:35
SPEAKER_00: some of the automated translation, etc.,
28:40
SPEAKER_00: I want to be careful with this point,
28:41
SPEAKER_00: but some of that technology is allowing the cultural experts to spend more time on
28:48
SPEAKER_00: the content and the storytelling rather than the mechanism of translating
28:53
SPEAKER_00: the content itself.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: So I am hopeful that some of the changes and the introduction of new ways
28:59
SPEAKER_00: of working will create even more space for the creative process in the localization.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: I think the technology part,
29:12
SPEAKER_01: what it does is it gives access to people
29:14
SPEAKER_01: that otherwise wouldn't understand language.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: So if you're a developer,
29:17
SPEAKER_01: you don't understand Chinese,
29:18
SPEAKER_01: you don't understand German, you don't It's really interesting.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: So you can get access to the the language or the possible bugs and issues earlier
29:51
SPEAKER_01: if you do international checks early on and machine translation allows you to kind
29:55
SPEAKER_01: of do that a little bit it's not going to tell you is the game good
29:57
SPEAKER_01: and how does it read and how does it write and is the narrative flow but it can show
30:02
SPEAKER_01: a developer hey you guys are going to have lots of bugs and
30:05
SPEAKER_01: the user experience is going to be really bad because they can't play through
30:08
SPEAKER_01: the game because the directions or the instructions can't fit on the screen
30:13
SPEAKER_01: And that's really what the developers want.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: They want a game that people love to play,
30:17
SPEAKER_01: not a game that they feel like they have to work hard to play.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: And that's why some technology has kind of really helped developers see these things before.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: It will never remove it completely because sometimes people just design it
30:27
SPEAKER_01: and they haven't thought of it before.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: But they should be thinking about this because it's not really a heavy load effort
30:33
SPEAKER_01: to do it either.
30:34
SPEAKER_02: So I got a note that said that your customers are getting you involved.
30:37
SPEAKER_02: That's why I misread this.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: Getting involved earlier and earlier in the process.
30:41
SPEAKER_02: Is that something that you're seeing?
30:42
SPEAKER_02: Is that happening?
30:43
SPEAKER_01: I would say that it can depend on the project because sometimes we're brought
30:47
SPEAKER_01: in last minute to fix things.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: And in that case, no.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: But in some cases we're brought in really early.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: We say, look, we want to take this game and we want to take it to a new market.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: Or we want this game and we want to create the same user experience
31:01
SPEAKER_01: for all our players, no matter what their language are.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: And if they have that kind of mentality,
31:04
SPEAKER_01: We can start to talk about, okay, well,
31:05
SPEAKER_01: these are the kind of features and functionality that really work well
31:08
SPEAKER_01: when you localize them, so therefore they're really good, or do you want to do that?
31:19
SPEAKER_01: You understand the narrative design of the game where you have multiple choices
31:23
SPEAKER_01: that have multiple outcomes in the game that can be really complicated and
31:26
SPEAKER_01: when you localize it that means your game is going to become extremely complicated
31:30
SPEAKER_01: because as you have decisions you need to worry about how you're going to check it
31:33
SPEAKER_01: and quantify it does that flow correctly through.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: You know if you look at polish with different kind
31:38
SPEAKER_01: of versions you know you can have plurals and you know different genders
31:43
SPEAKER_01: and things like that they add complexity
31:45
SPEAKER_01: and getting involved early means you can start to consider those as you build.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: The one thing I would add to that is that when we talk localization,
31:54
SPEAKER_00: we don't just talk about the words.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: In the cases where developers bring the cultural expert early,
32:03
SPEAKER_00: the cultural expert has the ability to Influence the content in a richer way.
32:09
SPEAKER_00: So how you build characters, what they wear, what colors they use.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: So you end up communicating the story or the message or you tell the story in
32:21
SPEAKER_00: a richer way, in a more inclusive way.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Now, again,
32:25
SPEAKER_00: going back to the beginning of this conversation,
32:28
SPEAKER_00: wanting to stretch the gamer so they experience the game as the key priority,
32:34
SPEAKER_00: totally fine, right?
32:36
SPEAKER_00: So it's not like one thing is better than the other,
32:38
SPEAKER_00: but that can enrich the experience and it can make the game be more inclusive,
32:45
SPEAKER_00: I guess.
32:46
SPEAKER_02: We're losing the lights,
32:47
SPEAKER_02: but is there any examples of things that surprised you recently in
32:50
SPEAKER_00: I've got
32:54
SPEAKER_02: one.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: I've got a few stories from my days over the years.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: I think I've been working in localization for 20 odd years.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: So there's lots of listening stories, but like working out context is often Lead to surprises.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: And I won't mention brands and names because that would just get me into trouble.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: But, you know,
33:11
SPEAKER_01: if you have a tag or a slogan,
33:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:13
SPEAKER_01: like just do it or,
33:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:14
SPEAKER_01: the taste of life and things like that, everyone knows who their brands are.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: But if you don't know or understand what you're translating and
33:20
SPEAKER_01: then you're giving it And then someone doesn't understand it's going on a billboard.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: Before you know it, you can have really, really caused a load of trouble.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: And once that's out there, you can't take it back.
33:29
SPEAKER_01: It's out there.
33:29
SPEAKER_01: It's never coming back.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: But then you have other people who can go into so much detail about this.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: We have to make people believe I actually really believe that this game happened in
33:43
SPEAKER_01: that time, not just the language, but the time.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: So we've been asked for example to look at some Arabic kind of situations where,
33:51
SPEAKER_01: you know, let's say you were going to buy a pack of cigarettes.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: Well, that pack of cigarettes wasn't available.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: What kind of brand would be available?
34:00
SPEAKER_01: What kind of language would it have on it?
34:02
SPEAKER_01: And actually go into that level of detail.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: So that can affect the artwork you do as well as the translation.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: That's more of a trans-creation kind of part.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: So you've got some really funny stories where people have done Out of context,
34:13
SPEAKER_01: but they've also got some really great stories where people have said, no, no, no,
34:16
SPEAKER_01: we want to make people believe that this is real or as real as it can be,
34:20
SPEAKER_01: like they're back in that time and date and make them relive that experience.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: So that's the cases we've seen, but I can't give you specifics.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: I think there's a lot of them out there.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: I think there's too many probably to mention.
34:34
SPEAKER_02: How much of an impact is AI having on your business?
34:36
SPEAKER_02: Is it a good thing?
34:36
SPEAKER_02: Is it helping you?
34:37
SPEAKER_02: Is it a threat?
34:39
SPEAKER_01: I think it's like any technology,
34:41
SPEAKER_01: any technology in the right hands with
34:44
SPEAKER_01: the right understanding can have great benefits.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: But in the same case,
34:49
SPEAKER_01: in the wrong hands and with the wrong use cases, kind of really bad outcomes.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: Also, it gives a lot of people some false expectations.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: I often get,
34:57
SPEAKER_01: and I actually did a webinar quite a while ago about this,
35:01
SPEAKER_01: where it's like, we get asked, can AI do that?
35:04
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: Let's see.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: And then let's see how good is it.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: Let's see does it work.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: And let's set the expectations correctly.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't always meet the expectations because the dream of AI is
35:18
SPEAKER_01: that it will do everything for you.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: And the reality is often a little bit further away.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: Implementation and vision are two very different things.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: And it's really key that, you know, you set expectations early as possible.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: That's why,
35:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
35:32
SPEAKER_01: like I mentioned about machine translation,
35:34
SPEAKER_01: for example,
35:34
SPEAKER_01: in LLMs,
35:35
SPEAKER_01: giving the developer the access to see it and they say,
35:38
SPEAKER_01: look how bad this might be or how good it might be.
35:41
SPEAKER_01: This is maybe something we could do.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: But use it in the right way.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: Use it when you're doing your QA early to give them access to it, see if they can fix it.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: Don't do it with dialogue because the AI will never really understand how
35:51
SPEAKER_01: a conversation flows in Japanese between a father and a son and then a son and
35:55
SPEAKER_01: a dog.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, in your game, it doesn't really get that.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: So you need to think about the complexity of the language and
36:04
SPEAKER_01: the machine will only know what you feed it as well.
36:07
SPEAKER_02: Because obviously,
36:07
SPEAKER_02: I guess the companies that might be tempted to use AI are smaller companies,
36:10
SPEAKER_02: right, and independent teams.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: How can they get involved in what, you know, with you, I guess, an affordable way?
36:17
SPEAKER_02: Because they often don't have the capacity of a bigger business.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, like, we're not telling people not to use it.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: Like, if the only option they have is to do that,
36:25
SPEAKER_01: then, you know, okay, that's something that they can do.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: And we might expose the game and they can come back to us and they can fix it later
36:32
SPEAKER_01: because maybe they don't have a player base.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: Maybe they don't have a region out there that they think is going to buy the game.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: But if they want to use it responsibly,
36:40
SPEAKER_01: then doing the evaluations and looking and forecasting of what the quality could be.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: And looking at your content and saying, okay, well, what's risky?
36:47
SPEAKER_01: What's not risky?
36:48
SPEAKER_01: And trying to understand, okay, well, this workflow works really well.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: This one, no, no, we don't.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: Like I mentioned about the dialogue, for example, really complex.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: You're probably better off using humans and doing it the right way from the start.
37:01
SPEAKER_02: I often find with AI it's good at speeding things up it's not necessarily good
37:04
SPEAKER_02: at it's not necessarily better than so you know you always need someone
37:07
SPEAKER_02: to you know make sure it delivers.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah so when you use AI there is a risk because it's so good sometimes
37:14
SPEAKER_01: and this is true because it can be very good that the hallucinization or
37:18
SPEAKER_01: the mistranslation parts they read really well but they're probably wrong yeah
37:22
SPEAKER_01: and they're even harder to catch so the expertise you need and
37:25
SPEAKER_01: the linguistic skills you need to catch those things that would make it
37:28
SPEAKER_01: of human quality You need really good linguists.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: And you don't need someone who's maybe just like, you know, doing French part-time.
37:35
SPEAKER_01: You want someone who understands the game really well,
37:38
SPEAKER_01: who studied linguistics, can catch those things.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: So you need the right level of expertise for it.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: I'll ask one final question.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: Where do you see sort of localization going in the next five years?
37:50
SPEAKER_01: I think, Mina, we should ask that together, but I'll let you go first.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: I...
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Localization as a concept, I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: What is changing is the methodology to get there.
38:07
SPEAKER_00: The authenticity of the voice of a person,
38:11
SPEAKER_00: the way a message gets transferred,
38:14
SPEAKER_00: will continue to be led or be more real or more enjoyable through the experience of
38:21
SPEAKER_00: a person.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: Now, the reality is some of the processes within localization I'm maybe ripe
38:31
SPEAKER_00: for some technology, but I don't think...
38:33
SPEAKER_00: I think audiences will continue to be delighted by the content that gets created
38:39
SPEAKER_00: by developers,
38:41
SPEAKER_00: and it gets
38:44
SPEAKER_00: shared better through the authentic voice of a human,
38:50
SPEAKER_00: maybe with a little bit of help of technology,
38:52
SPEAKER_00: but as I say,
38:54
SPEAKER_00: it's the processes that may change, not necessarily the discipline itself.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: I would agree with Romina,
39:01
SPEAKER_01: the process will change and the main reason why is that games are getting bigger
39:04
SPEAKER_01: and they're getting more complicated and the way that they structure the complexity
39:11
SPEAKER_01: between conversations and outcomes in the game Getting more complicated.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: So things will have to change and things will have to get better.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: But we've been getting better every year, every month, every week, every day where we can.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: So we innovate on technologies when it comes to workflow.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: We innovate in terms of the applications we use We innovate in how we report back.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: We're doing it all the time.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: So it's important that it's not just AI.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's lots of things that we're doing to make things better over time.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
39:41
SPEAKER_01: the speed in which information flows through organizations Straight through from QA
39:45
SPEAKER_01: into localization, into localization testing and then out into the market.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: That's really the key thing because the more data, the bigger the game is more complex.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: The speed in which the information travels through those business units and out is
39:57
SPEAKER_01: the challenge because that's why AI is being used in a lot of cases is often
40:01
SPEAKER_01: because Translation is done at the very end.
40:04
SPEAKER_01: And you have very little time.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: And that's often why people start to look at it.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: And that's not really like where you should be looking at it for.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: You should be looking at how can you improve the whole thing through technology,
40:13
SPEAKER_01: AI and expertise.
40:15
SPEAKER_02: You've got a lot going on.
40:16
SPEAKER_02: You've got more markets opening up as the industry gets tighter.
40:19
SPEAKER_02: People are looking to new territories and you've got AI technology disrupting everything.
40:23
SPEAKER_02: You've got your hands full.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much for your time.
40:25
SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate learning all about what's going on.
40:28
SPEAKER_02: Thanks very much.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
40:30
SPEAKER_02: Thank you Romina and Dominic.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: I actually had another chat with Keywords at the time with someone called Jenna
40:34
SPEAKER_02: who works on accessibility at Keywords.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: Really interesting and we'll run that at a later date so do join us for that one.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: Now before we finish it's time for the news round up.
40:42
SPEAKER_02: Not too many stories this week but you know some big ones.
40:45
SPEAKER_02: Let's begin with Bungie.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: The Bungie says it will return to Destiny and has announced plans
40:49
SPEAKER_02: to reinstate old campaigns, raids and destinations to the existing game.
40:54
SPEAKER_02: It also said it's going to Revolve Marathon towards a more survival based experience
40:58
SPEAKER_02: to reach more players.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: Bungie had previously released a final update to Destiny 2,
41:02
SPEAKER_02: which resulted in the loss of over 290 employees.
41:06
SPEAKER_02: They're trying to regain the trust of players a little bit there.
41:08
SPEAKER_02: I heard good things about Marathon.
41:10
SPEAKER_02: Not many people are playing it, but I've heard good things about it.
41:13
SPEAKER_02: Two Swedish Unions,
41:14
SPEAKER_02: Unionen,
41:15
SPEAKER_02: and I'll pronounce this,
41:17
SPEAKER_02: Sveriges Ingen,
41:19
SPEAKER_02: Georgia,
41:22
SPEAKER_02: have issued a strike notice against King after executives rejected
41:26
SPEAKER_02: a proposed collective bargaining agreement.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: Mediation is ongoing,
41:29
SPEAKER_02: but if no agreement is reached,
41:30
SPEAKER_02: King's staff will strike on September 25th, which is tomorrow.
41:34
SPEAKER_02: The EU Commission has published a draft proposal for its Kids Act.
41:37
SPEAKER_02: The Act suggests a ban on social networks and video sharing platforms for under 13s
41:41
SPEAKER_02: and restrictions for under 15s.
41:43
SPEAKER_02: However,
41:43
SPEAKER_02: there are some rules that will also apply to online games
41:46
SPEAKER_02: which could cover everything from Roblox and Fortnite to multiplayer modes
41:50
SPEAKER_02: in traditional games.
41:50
SPEAKER_02: The Act discourages online game makers from using techniques that entice young users
41:54
SPEAKER_02: to play for longer or to log in more frequently.
41:57
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to do something on this I think next week.
41:59
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't seem that unreasonable so I'll be interested to see how the industry responds.
42:03
SPEAKER_02: And finally,
42:04
SPEAKER_02: Minds Eye developer Builder Rocket Boy has undergone another wave of redundancies,
42:07
SPEAKER_02: which insiders claim,
42:09
SPEAKER_02: insiders have claimed the developers now have been completely wiped out.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: Builder Rocket Boy was put together by Grand Theft Auto Online creator Leslie Benzies in 2016.
42:15
SPEAKER_02: It was building a big metaverse thing.
42:17
SPEAKER_02: It ended up launching a pretty disappointing sort of GTA-like story game
42:22
SPEAKER_02: that came out last year, and it just hasn't worked out for them.
42:26
SPEAKER_02: That's it for this week.
42:29
SPEAKER_02: We do have a lot coming up on The Game Business Show for you to look forward to.
42:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm becoming a bit wary of telling people what the next episodes are
42:35
SPEAKER_02: because things keep dropping in at the last minute.
42:37
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to run that now.
42:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to run that now.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: So I don't want to tease necessarily what's It's going
42:42
SPEAKER_02: to run specifically next week, but I'll say some of the features we've got.
42:45
SPEAKER_02: We've got a piece on EA Criterion coming up.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: We've got a piece with Tencent coming up.
42:50
SPEAKER_02: We've got a piece with Roblox coming up.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: We've got an interview with Ken Kushiragi coming up.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: We've got an interview with Commodore.
42:56
SPEAKER_02: I love that interview.
42:57
SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to show you that one.
42:57
SPEAKER_02: We've got an interview with Bing Gordon.
43:00
SPEAKER_02: Loads and loads of big shows coming up and lots and lots of deep dives as well
43:04
SPEAKER_02: into other areas of the industry on our news analysis show.
43:09
SPEAKER_02: For now, that's it from me.
43:10
SPEAKER_02: If you want to make sure you don't miss an episode,
43:11
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43:13
SPEAKER_02: If you are already a pre-subscriber to The Game Business,
43:16
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43:18
SPEAKER_02: We are a reader-supported brand, basically.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: I know we have sponsors at the moment,
43:21
SPEAKER_02: which is very,
43:22
SPEAKER_02: very helpful,
43:23
SPEAKER_02: but it's not enough, and ultimately, ideally, it would be a reader-supported thing.
43:28
SPEAKER_02: We're hammered a little bit, but we give our stuff away for free, except for our Monday show.
43:32
SPEAKER_02: So I understand why you don't need to support it,
43:34
SPEAKER_02: but if you're able to support it, that would be amazing.
43:37
SPEAKER_02: But that's it for me today.
43:39
SPEAKER_02: Until next time, thank you for tuning in.