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DDH - Seduction, Secrets and Spies · Plausibly Live - The Dave Bowman Show Podcast

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History's strange, it's alien, and it won't give us what we
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would like to have. Common sense on common radio.
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Welcome to our third hour this Tuesday, the 15th of October,
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2024. The McPherson Financial Group.
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That's our sponsor thereof if it's Tuesday in the 8:00 hour of
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Bill Mick live, if Dave does history, Dave Bowman with us
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from Silverdale, WA with this week's history lesson.
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And Dave, I got to tell you, I got to be honest when I saw what
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the topic was for this week's Dave does history and you're
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going to be talking about Mata Hari.
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The first thing in my mind was Lancelot Link Secret chimp and
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his cohort was Mata Hari and this is not the same one.
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No, it's, it's not the same one, but it's a good example of how a
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cultural zeitgeist enters the enters the flow of what we do
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and, and how many, how many people that were watching that
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understood what that reference was.
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I mean, Bullwinkle was the same thing.
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You know, Bullwinkle and Rocky, you watch it as a kid, you don't
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get it. You watch it as an adult.
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It's a different show because of those, because of those
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historical references. And that's, that's what it what
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fascinates me here. Mata Hari is a name that is
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synonymous with mystery, glamour and betrayal.
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She would rise to fame in Paris as an exotic dancer, dazzling
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audiences with her sensual performances.
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But as World War One unfolded, her life took a darker turn,
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entangling her in a world of espionage, double agents and
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fatal accusations. Her eventual arrest and
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execution by the French in 1917 on this day would leave a trail
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of unanswered questions. Was she truly a cunning spy,
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passing secrets to the Germans and the French?
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Or was she simply a victim of circumstances, a scapegoat
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during a time of war and paranoia?
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Her story has fascinated historians and writers for
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decades, blending all of the allure of high society with the
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deadly stakes of wartime intrigue.
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Her life was a paradox 1 of seductive performances and
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whispered secrets where the line between fact and fiction
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blurred, making her one of the most enigmatic figures in modern
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history. And we continue in just 60
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seconds, the story of Mata Hari with Dave Bowman.
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And Dave does history on Bill Mclaugh.
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Dave, let's get into this story. It sounds intriguing and maybe
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not what it's been thought to be all along.
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Is that what I'm hearing from you?
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It's possible she was born August 7th, 1876 in the
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Netherlands. Her name was Margarita Gertruda
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Zell, which is a mouthful, but you know, it's the Netherlands.
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She came into a world that would later seem far removed from the
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exotic image she would create for herself, but her early life
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was not very stable and certainly not glamorous.
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She was the daughter of a prosperous Hatter, a
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haberdashery, and then, if you recall back in those eras,
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haberdashers and Hatters somewhat subject to poisoning
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because of the the chemicals they used in the hats.
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So that might help explain some things.
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Her father was, you know, comfortable, almost privileged.
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But the life was soon to crumble.
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By the time she was a teenager, her her father's business had
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collapsed. Parents had separated and
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shortly after, her mother died. This loss marked a turning point
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in her life. She was uprooted and she would
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never know that that stable life again.
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Sent to live with relatives, later enrolled in a teacher's
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college, she was caught up in a scandal said to have had an
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affair with the school's headmaster and it tarnished her
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reputation and forced her to leave her studies behind.
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So not being able to become a teacher, well, what happens?
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She had these early experiences with instability and social
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societal rejection. They probably contributed to her
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later courses choices. Sorry, not courses.
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By the time she was 18, seeking stability in a new life, she
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married, responded to a newspaper ad placed by 1 Captain
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Rudolph McLeod, a Dutch military officer who was 20 years older
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than her, put in a newspaper ad, Bill said, Hey, I'm looking for
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a wife. And this is what people did in
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those eras. Within months, they were
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married, and she became the wife of an officer stationed in the
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Dutch E Indies, which we would know as today as Indonesia.
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It promised a fresh start. It promised adventure.
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But you know, life in the tropics is not all that great.
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The captain was a harsh and abusive man.
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He was a heavy drinker, and their marriage was troubled.
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Despite being in picturesque surroundings, she found herself
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isolated in an unfamiliar culture, far away from home,
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trapped in a volatile relationship.
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They did have two children, son named Norman, daughter Jean, but
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their son passed away at 2, likely poisoned by one of their
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servants, although details are a little murky about that.
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The loss devastated her and further strained the already
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crumbling marriage. Eventually, in 19 O 2, they
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separated. She returned to Europe with her
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daughter, but you know, she's not very financially stable and
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she was forced to leave her daughter with her husband, which
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didn't make her very happy. That severed her final ties with
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her now former husband. All of this would add up to
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exposing her to a very exotic culture and traditions of the
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East Indies, which would be seen later in the inspiration that
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would lead to her transformation into this person we know as
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Matahari. But her unstable early life,
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characterized by the loss of people, all this stuff seemed to
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drive this this change. By the time she re emerges in
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Paris as Matahari, which translates as the eye of the
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day, she has crafted an image of a mysterious exotic dancer
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drawing from that experience in Indonesia.
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And this persona allows her to transcend her past, gives her
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access to the glamorous, exciting world of high society.
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But it's all built on a very fragile foundation, shaped by
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emotional instability. It's no surprise that someone
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who's faced such hardships would embrace the allure of a
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fantastical life, one where she could captivate and control all
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those around her, making that inner turmoil glow with illusion
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of power and mystique. She is going to become the Mata
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Hari. And this, this image that we
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have is it's it's still today, more than 100 years later,
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evokes an era of exotic mysticism and allure.
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Not necessarily, you know, hooking, as we, as we said in
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the title there, but you know, it's kind of one of the, it's
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kind of one of those things. And it's, it's important to
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understand that she's not just going to perform dancers dances,
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sorry. She's going to present herself
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as a priestess of ancient sacred traditions, claiming that she
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learned these exotic dances during her time in the East
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Indies. Whether or not it was true or
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not didn't matter. The audiences were captivated.
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She shifts her image from a woman to a far off land, an
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unattainable figure whose sensuality is wrapped up in
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ritual and mystery. And this is something that
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Parisians love. The dance performances are often
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compared to religious ceremonies.
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They blur the lines between art and seduction.
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They draw aristocrats, Democrat or diplomats, Sorry, not
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Democrats, although maybe, and wealthy men into her orbit.
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So. So the way she moves, the way
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she dresses, Or more precisely, doesn't dress, are carefully
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constructed storylines. This is this is a person who
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really understood how to communicate with the audience
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that she was trying to relieve, to relieve, to reach.
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It's a carefully curated persona helps her navigate the very
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elite circles of Europe. And she understands that power
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comes from perception. And she will use those
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performances to place herself at the center of attention, not
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just as a dancer, but as an object of fascination.
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Everything she does, her entire rise to fame in the cabarets of
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Paris, is meteoric. But she soon becomes the
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confidant or lover of very powerful men, military officers
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and politicians. And as the storm clouds begin to
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build towards World War One, those qualities that make her
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famous, plus her ability to move between different worlds are
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going to lead to her ultimate tragic downfall.
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This is not a dumb chick Dave. She she had the knowledge of how
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to allure, to bring these people in, like you said, captivating
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them. She basically was reaching the
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heights of fame for what she did right.
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Well, you know, there's a reason why the term Matahari is so
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there's a, there's a feeling that it evokes today.
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We don't, we think the Matahari is someone very beautiful, very
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sensual, but also someone not to be trusted.
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And there's a certain, you know, there's a certain element to it
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that we apply even to women as men.
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We, we, we kind of see women in the well dig.
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Into it, but we continue. Time is 8/26.
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It's a take on history you won't find anywhere else.
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Dave does history. On Bill Nick Live.
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Pearson Financial Group brings you the hour and Dave telling us
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the story of Mata Hari in an interesting one.
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It is so far, Dave. She has found herself surrounded
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by the elite, middle military and political alike.
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It is the time of World War One. Where's it taken her and us this
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morning? By the time World War One
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engulfs Europe, her life of luxury, intrigue and connections
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really began to cultivate with high-ranking military officers
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and politicians from numerous countries.
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Now, this is this is unusual, but it's it's not, it's not
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surprising, I guess during the early years of the war, she
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continues to live that life of a celebrated performer and
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cortisone and her fame allows her bill to travel between
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neutral and belligerent countries.
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So she's going to Germany, she's going to Paris, she's going to
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Belgium and, and, and Holland and all.
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I mean, she's it, it's almost like for her, the war doesn't
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really matter except that the French are losing battles in the
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early part of World War One. Things are not going well for
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them and they need to do something.
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And so they discover or they realize that hey, she's welcome
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in Germany. She can still go and and come as
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she pleases. So we're going to try to
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convince her to accept a bunch of money and spy for us when
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she's over in Germany. Great idea, right The.
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Problem. I mean, if we had a situation
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going on now, can you see Taylor Swift or Beyoncé?
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I mean, we're talking that kind of fame, right?
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Probably more. I mean, it's, it's strange to us
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to think, but probably even more, at least in Europe, this
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idea that they that the French hit on is brilliant, except for
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one problem. The Germans have also had the
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same idea, or at least we think they had the same idea.
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Nobody knows for absolute certain.
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However, the Germans we know now have a spy who is female.
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They refer to her as age 21 and she is traveling back and forth
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to France and she's bringing them information about the
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French military. Is it Matahari?
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Might be. We don't know for sure.
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She always denied being a double agent.
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But the wartime records suggest that she may have accepted money
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from both sides. So whose side is she actually
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on? Well, you know, in the, in the
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words of the great Bobby Bowden, just like a woman, she's on her
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own side. And we don't know what that's
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going to do. But we do know that the that
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both sides are probably paying her to be a spy.
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Interesting stuff. Thank you, David.
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We get back into it momentarily. So we today still don't know if
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she was playing both sides, but playing she was.
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How valuable was she, Dave? I mean, did did either or both
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sides see her as really valuable here?
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Well, they must have. They both kept giving her money.
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The French will, the French are. Look, the French are having
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problems with this war. And one of the things we don't
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really grasp about World War One is that by 1916 and in the 1917,
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France was on the brink of falling apart.
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The army was almost in rebellion.
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So there's a fantastic film called Paths of Glory starring
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Kirk Douglas. If you've never seen that film,
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I highly encourage you to watch it.
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The, the ideas, The, the, the French army was just struggling
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and so they needed a scapegoat for why they kept losing and why
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they were having so much problems, why they weren't
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winning, which in the French mindset, if you're not winning,
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you're losing. So there's obviously some
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information getting across here. And they actually capture a
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German telegram that refers to this age 21 spy.
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They put piece and piece together and they arrest her for
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being a spy. Now what they do is they blame
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her for giving the Germans information and they accuse her
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of causing the deaths of thousands of French soldiers by
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giving them this information. Never mind the fact that they've
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been paying her for information too.
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They, they kind of forget that part at her trial.
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They present the telegram as evidence, they present her
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relationship with German officers as as evidence.
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They, they track her bank transfers.
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There's, it's circumstantial, but she did receive large sums
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of money from Germans. Now was that for spying or was
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it for courtesan services? And in the mind of the French,
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does it really matter at that point?
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I mean, if you're in in World War 21, of the reasons I hate
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the word collaboration, collaboration is because in
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World War 2 you have French women that sleep with Nazis.
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They're called collaborators. There's almost that same
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mentality here. Is she collaborating with the
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Germans even if she's not giving them information?
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If she's, you know, performing and sleeping with them, that's a
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problem, too. Was she just a messenger?
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Was she just, you know, taking messages back and forth across
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this? There's all kinds of questions
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here. Is she a double agent?
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Is she, is she spying both for France and Germany?
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And we don't know it. And then you, you have a Russian
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officer that actually enters into this who is, you know,
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taking advantage of her, her courtesan services.
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How in the world do you get a Russian officer involved with
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all this? They're on the other side of
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Europe. Theoretically you shouldn't be
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able to get there. But she she somehow manages to
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get herself involved with that. If she was a double agent, her
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motivations may have been less about loyalty and more about,
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you know, I'm going to make money while the money making's
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good. But it's very possible, Bill,
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that she's really nothing more than a scapegoat.
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The French want to cover up their own failures, and by 1917,
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they need a scapegoat. And so they arrest her.
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They charge her, they try her. And on this day in 1917, they
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will execute her as a spy. And to this day, we're still
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asking the question, was she guilty or not?
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Does it matter? And what can we learn from all
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of this? So the trial date was a
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spectacle. In the sense of in, in the sense
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of wartime entertainment, Yeah, it was.
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They needed somebody to blame. And so when they arrested her in
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February, they, they put her on trial because they, but the
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problem with something like that, Bill, is it how much of it
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comes back at you, you know, I mean, you, you run that risk of
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exposing things that you don't really want exposed.
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Yeah, that's very true. Dave Bowen with us.
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What Dave does history. We'll finish up the story of
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Madahari and take your calls on our next segment at
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321-768-1240. There's no time like the
19:56
present. Call Bill now at 32171240.
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The McPherson Financial Group, this hour's sponsor and this
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hour is Dave Doug's history on Bill Mick Live talking about
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Mata Hari. So Dave, let's catch up with
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what has happened with her now that this trial has gone on.
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They put her to death. What's lingering after this?
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What are we still wondering? Well, it's this morning, October
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15th, 1917, at 5:00 in the morning.
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They wake her up, they March her out to Vincennes where the
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execution squad is waiting. And by the way, she doesn't go
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to her execution dressed as a prisoner.
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I mean, she goes dressed to the nines, Bill, she's, she's going
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to put on a performance all the way to the very end.
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We're told that when she gets there, she says no to the
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blindfold, which is the traditional thing offered so you
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don't have to watch them shoot you.
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She says no. She stands very tall, head held
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high, looks directly at the 12 soldiers.
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And according to witnesses, she did not flinch or tremble.
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But just before the shots ring out, she blows the soldiers a
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kiss. Now, we don't know that that
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certainly happened, but it seems to fall within the within the
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way that we picture her. Her body is unclaimed.
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It's later reported that her remains are used for medical
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study, but no one came forward to give her a proper burial.
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And ultimately, she's left to history, remembered as a
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glamorous performer and a tragic figure accused of betrayal.
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The questions remain, was she a spy?
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This isn't, you know, we don't have Perry Mason investigating
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this. We don't really know that she
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was, but we don't know that she wasn't.
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And if she wasn't, she didn't do a very good job of proving that
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she wasn't. It's probably likely that she
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was. It's probably likely that she
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was a a double agent. She was taking money from both
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sides, but how much of her spot spying, how much of the
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information she passed on was useful in a war that was, you
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know, essentially stopped trench warfare By that point, it's
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questionable as to whether or not that information was even
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usable or not. But since those days, she has
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become something of a an icon in our both our lexicon and in our
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are are thinking about how we deal with things.
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The cultural fascination with her persists even to this day.
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There are films, there are novels, there are documentation
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documentaries, all of this stuff that portrays her in differing
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lights. Sometimes she's the victim,
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sometimes she's a, you know, calculating shrew.
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But in the Cold War era, when spy stories were particularly
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popular, her story was often invoked as an example of how
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women can use their sexuality as a weapon in international
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intrigue. And I actually, Bill got into a
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discussion yesterday about this very thing and about how we were
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told Once Upon a time that we were not particularly attractive
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males. So if a beautiful woman comes up
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to you in a bar. And remember, this was the 80's,
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the height of the Cold War. If a beautiful woman comes up to
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you in a bar and starts hitting on you and asking you what you
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do and all that, she's a 10. You're a six at 5 at best.
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She's a spy and don't talk to her.
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I mean, this thinking persisted into the 1980s, Bill.
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And it all comes from this idea that this beautiful, alluring
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woman, the Mata Hari executed this day in 1917, was the
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ultimate femme fatale. This this woman who used her
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beauty, her allure, her mystery to get men to do what she wanted
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them to do. And in the end, men blamed her
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for their own failings and had her shot.
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But she got the last laugh, blowing them the kiss.
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And that's the way I think she would have wanted to go out.
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In that interesting and Dave it went beyond the 1980s.
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I mean the the name Fang Fang is running through my head right
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now. It's it's as much a part of our
24:46
culture today as it ever has been.
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I just think, I just think that maybe the term might have faded
24:55
a little bit. I don't think, I don't, I don't
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know that my son would understand the term Mata Hari.
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And even kids watching, you know, the the chimp thing may
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not have understood it, but. But yeah, it's still this idea.
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Yeah. This idea of a seductive woman.
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And it's culturally, it's kind of I, I don't know if it's
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offensive or not because I'm a dude.
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So I don't see this quite the same way, you know, but but I
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can see where women would take this as a very offensive idea,
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that all women that are beautiful are spies.
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I I should pull that with my wife tonight.
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So are you spying on me? Let me know how that goes and
25:37
we'll pick up your calls with Dave Bowman and Dave Does
25:39
History on Bill Mick live in just 60 seconds.
25:44
Mata Hari, the focus of Dave does History on Bill Mick live
25:48
this morning, Dave going back to determining whether or not she
25:52
was a spy and if so, for which side or sides.
25:56
What I'm picking up out of this is there are no records from
25:59
either German or French intelligence that said this is
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the girl who's doing the stuff we're doing.
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They they might have know that they had one, but nothing that
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tied her to this directly. The Germans had uncovered the
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age 21 telegram, but the age 21 telegram only indicated that
26:16
they had a spy. It didn't indicate that it was
26:19
Mata Hari. The the problem here, Bill, is
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that the French, we know the French tried to hire her as a
26:26
spy, did pay her to be a spot. So regardless of whether or not
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she was spying for Germany or not, she was also spying for
26:34
France. So the question whether or not
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she's a double agent is that we have circumstantial evidence
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that she was spying for Germany, but we know she was spying for
26:44
France and France arrests her for being a spy and then
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executes her. She's this is the ultimate in
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scapegoating. And this is the same France
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that, you know, not that long before it had the Dreyfus
26:57
affair. It's not, you know, another 20
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years we're going to have Vichy France.
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It's not something France is very proud of.
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And the problem is, of course, that nobody knows for certain
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what happened. If we knew for certain, it'd be
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one thing, but we don't. And So what we have here is
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this, this scapegoat that we blame on her womanly Wiles and
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her, her femme fatale attitude and this, this whole idea that
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she's just seducing men all around Europe and getting her
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way with them. And but we don't really know
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that, but it's it makes a convenient blame.
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And an intriguing story. Let's get to the phones line one
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you're up with Dave Bowman on Bill Mick live.
27:43
Hey, it's. Keith from Palm Bay.
27:45
Yeah, Keith, great story. Dave, you answered my one
27:50
question. I was wondering what kind of
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method did they put her to death with?
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And you explained through the whole thing and it was, that was
27:56
really cool. My other question was just
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curious, you were talking about the other ladies that were
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collaborators and said they held them as collaborators.
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Were they sentenced to death or what?
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Do you have any information on what what what kind of
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repercussions came from the collaborators?
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Interesting question, Keith. Thank you, Dave.
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You know, there's two interesting things.
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You're #1 the Mata Hari was shot, which is not the normal
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situations for spies. Spies are usually hung.
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So I, I didn't really look into why they shot her instead of
28:33
hanging her. But I suspect it was just the
28:36
kind of a French thing in so far as the World War 2
28:39
collaborators. And This is why I hate the word
28:41
collaboration. I, I spent as, as you know by
28:44
now, I spent a good portion of my life working in the nonprofit
28:47
world and the nonprofit world loves that word.
28:50
We love to collab collaborate, but for me, collaborators, the
28:56
images bald French women who slept with Nazis at the end of
29:00
World War 2, when the French women who were accused of
29:02
collaborating with the Nazis, not necessarily spying, but
29:06
certainly sleeping with them with the German soldiers, many
29:11
of them were humiliated publicly.
29:14
Think of the, the, the scene in Game of Thrones.
29:17
Shame, shame, that sort of thing, except that the one thing
29:20
they really did was they would shave them bald because in
29:23
France, that's in that era, that was considered to be very
29:28
shameful. So they would shave their heads,
29:30
throw eggs at them and rotten vegetables and their likes that
29:32
some were executed because of things that they did, but most
29:36
of them were just shamed. And that's why I hate the word
29:39
collaborators, because that's the image that I have.
29:43
Line 2, you're next on Bill Mick live.
29:45
Good morning. Excellent discussion.
29:48
She's lucky that she was not burned at the stake.
29:52
You know, the, the, the French are into executing strong,
29:56
independent women. And as I, as I was listening to
29:59
you, I was thinking about Marine Le Pen in France.
30:02
They're probably going to execute her too.
30:04
But there's something going on with the French and executing
30:07
women. I, I, there's something bizarre
30:09
about those people. And, you know, I'm half French
30:12
and I grew up with the French half of my family up there in,
30:14
in Massachusetts and Canada. So I, I really love this
30:19
discussion. I think we have to dig deeper
30:22
into the psychology and the and of of the French.
30:27
Yeah, that would be a long trip I would imagine.
30:29
Line 3 year old Bill Make live. Good morning Bill here in
30:33
Melbourne. Yeah, yeah.
30:34
I think she knew too much and they had to get rid of her.
30:39
I think that's entirely possible.
30:41
They could this be just the French men, the politicians, the
30:46
military that were interacting with her, that had been subjects
30:52
of her affections or apparent affections, wanted to say, you
30:57
know what, we're done here. She served her purpose.
30:59
Let's get her out of here. We blame it on her.
31:01
They needed someone to blame for what was going on.
31:03
Again, I can't emphasize this enough.
31:06
It by 1917, France was really teetering, folks.
31:11
I mean, we could spend a lot of time talking about why the
31:14
United States got into the war in 1917.
31:18
France was, it was close, though.
31:22
I mean, the army was revolting. There were, there were mutinies.
31:27
They had to blame somebody for this.
31:29
And so, well, the reason so many of you are dying is because of
31:32
this woman who claims to be a priestess of some ancient
31:36
religion and is seducing leaders and the likes of that.
31:40
She's the reason. And of course, after the
31:43
executor, the United States is in the war, things begin to turn
31:46
around. So nobody asks those questions
31:49
back then. Very, very interesting.
31:55
You're looking ahead of what's coming up next week, Dave.
31:57
Next week, we're going to talk about an American who lives in
32:00
London and he is convicted of a murder most foul.
32:05
But this murder would grab the attention of the entire world,
32:07
not because it's gruesome or scandalous, but because of how
32:12
the murderer, if he was the murderer, ends up being caught.
32:16
Bill He ends up being caught by radio.
32:23
Oh, I like that idea. That guy thought you would, so
32:27
that's why I went. With Dave Bowman, great job with
32:30
Dave does history as you always do.
32:32
Of course there are links to Dave does history, his daily
32:35
work on there at the moment at billmic.com on today's show page
32:39
that is entitled Being educated hurricanes to hookers and well,
32:43
you heard the last part, so you know where that came from.
32:46
Anyway, links to him and the the regular Dave Bowman podcast, all
32:51
of those there for you on the show page today at billmic.com.
32:55
Dave Bowman, thank you. We'll talk next week.
32:56
We'll see you then. Check out more stories from
33:01
history@davedoeshistory.org.