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Not All Church Hurt Is Church Hurt · The Reformatory

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_05]: What do you got for me?
• 0:02
  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do
• 0:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: What's going on everyone and welcome to the reformatory, the podcast for the local church and Bible of the church and we are your local church and my name is Josh and I'm here as always with the captain.
• 0:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: Jack Barry, uh, Jack is good to be with you.
• 0:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: We missed a week.
• 0:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, that's on me.
• 0:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: Hand up accountability right from the start.
• 0:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, that one is on that one's on me.
• 0:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I don't know if it's on you.
• 0:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah.
• 1:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's fair.
• 1:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
• 1:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm the one that made the call, though.
• 1:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, so, um, uh, everything's good.
• 1:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: Just, uh,
• 1:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: just dealing with some family stuff needed to prioritize some time and some needed conversations with some extended X and family that just needed to need to happen.
• 1:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I just had some
• 1:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: people with health issues and whole bunch of stuff and I just just it just did not work, schedule ways to record and I'm still exhausted.
• 1:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's been a long it's been a long week we can a half.
• 1:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, um, yeah.
• 1:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: So obviously we can get more into that probably over on the pod luck, but uh, uh, but it's good to be with you.
• 1:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Good to be back in the studio.
• 1:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, Jack, how how are you, man?
• 1:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's good to see you.
• 1:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, doing well.
• 1:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, just going through the crazy weather that is the Pacific Northwest right now.
• 1:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 1:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, dumps like a couple inches of snow them burns off within a day or two, which is not so.
• 2:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, I've got a brother right now living in Iowa and the big thing for them right now is they're going through.
• 2:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, recording this, it's Tuesday.
• 2:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like 10 degrees there and Saturday
• 2:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: to make it make sense, make 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, go from 10 to 80 in the span of four days, right?
• 2:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what we got as well, insane, insane.
• 2:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: But good to be with you and good to be back tired though it might be, like Jack is gonna definitely take a lot more of the lead on this episode.
• 2:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, as always, we still have, we still have things to talk about, we've got,
• 2:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: fun things to watch Jack.
• 2:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: I've been able to compile a few of our favorite Instagrams and we're going to get to that right now.
• 2:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: This ladies and gentlemen is everyone's favorite segment.
• 2:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't forget to eat your Instagrams.
• 3:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is, don't forget to eat your instant grams and remember kids that's not heresy, if you believe it hard enough, that is how it works these days, Jack, and very interesting videos that were sent to us this week.
• 3:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: This one made its rounds, and I got to show you, I got to show you today, there's, look, here's the thing, I'm not against illustrations and sermons.
• 3:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
• 3:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not against it.
• 3:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think they can be very helpful at times, right?
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: But there does come a point to where the illustration
• 3:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think goes beyond the message that you're trying to convey and begins to not solidify what you are trying to convey, but becomes just a message in and of itself.
• 4:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that's kind of what we have right here with what I have coined as the cannonball preacher.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: The idea is rather than just sticking our toes in this really cool life that we took on these.
• 4:24
  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.
• 4:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Do even the, even the congregation's going wild.
• 4:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
• 4:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, points for getting to the right hot chill.
• 4:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to say points for song use for those that are listening to this and not watching this.
• 4:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: What you have here is a church.
• 4:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: I believe one of the guys here is wearing robes.
• 4:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I've got to be some sort of a alien, a piscapalean or something like that.
• 5:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a ladder, a very rickety old ladder.
• 5:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: And the only thing older than the ladder is the guy that's standing on it.
• 5:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: And he has a teenage mutant injeterital t-shirt on.
• 5:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's in swim trunks and socks.
• 5:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: And he has what looks to be, is that you know those, well, no, you know those, those, those pillows, they give to people that, oh, what do they call them?
• 5:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: They're like, they're like the medical pillows.
• 5:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I forget the name of them, but it looks as if he has,
• 5:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: Scotch taped two to three pillows to his backside and he's climbing to the top of the ladder and at the bottom of the ladder in front of him is looks like two kitty pools, one shoved inside the other and they are filled with water.
• 6:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: And his illustration is sometimes you have to tuck your knees and what did he say?
• 6:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's tuck your knees and we do a cannon ball.
• 6:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to play it one more time.
• 6:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: Your idea is rather than just sticking our toes in this really cool life that we tuck our knees.
• 6:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like dumps me.
• 6:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love everyone.
• 6:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love everyone.
• 6:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: You hear the lady, yeah, I know this.
• 6:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no.
• 6:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's John Cena.
• 6:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: You hear the lady recording.
• 6:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, don't do it.
• 6:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, don't do it.
• 6:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no.
• 6:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like you hear everyone, like, you know, Pastor Greg, what are you about to do?
• 6:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: And we do accountable.
• 6:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, dude, that could have ended so badly.
• 6:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: And he just jumps in.
• 6:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: He does a full cannonball from the top rope.
• 6:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, Pastor Greg from the top rope right into the swimming pool of life and yeah, I don't I don't understand really what the pillows are doing but Jack
• 7:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: not an illustration that I'm going to attempt here any time soon.
• 7:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.
• 7:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I got one more.
• 7:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: This one, I just found this one funny.
• 7:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: I just think the entire premise of this guy's stick on Instagram.
• 7:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: I find hilarious and it's like, it's my kind of humor.
• 7:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you'll understand that when you see it here.
• 7:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, today's scripture comes out of Psalm chapter 1, 19, and 1,05, thy word is a lamp into my feet and a light unto my path.
• 7:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Follow me for more scriptures like this, and I'll see you on the next one.
• 7:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I love this premise.
• 7:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: So what we have here is a video of some lady doing looks like BMX and it's like one of the looks like an obstacle course race and she comes to this point where there's some some looks like looks like some four by fours are Across the way she's got to lift the bike up and go over it and then get on the bike and keep keep keep running
• 8:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: She does not make it over the boards, and she falls flat on her face, and the bike falls right on top of her, and this guy.
• 8:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: He reacts too, and he just goes, well anyway.
• 8:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, today's scripture comes out of song, and he's script.
• 8:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: Dude, I don't know who this guy is, but it is at Dylan Marvich.
• 8:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: Dude, keep rockin' brother is so funny.
• 8:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's my kind of humor.
• 8:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
• 8:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
• 8:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Jack, my man, we're gonna get into some
• 8:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: talking about other people getting hurt in different ways, right?
• 9:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: The potential of pain in these videos has meant to segue into our topic, right?
• 9:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's very intentional talking about how we should be responding to individuals that are
• 9:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: claiming that hurt in the church has resulted in them causing, you know, deconstruction, walking away, right, the reality is when you're dealing with the local church, you're dealing with sinners.
• 9:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: And you're never going to have a local church that is free of pain, free of frustration, or free of sin, right?
• 9:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're not sinless perfectionists, and we believe that we tear
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: comes back or takes us home.
• 9:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: So the reality of that is that there's always going to be.
• 9:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: a certain amount of pain and sin that must be dealt with within the local church.
• 9:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we don't run from that reality.
• 10:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't try to sugarcoat that reality.
• 10:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: We understand that that reality is prevalent in his real and has real life consequences.
• 10:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we also realize that with the
• 10:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: with the potential that the local church has to be such a light and a source of healing and encouragement toward the weary soul.
• 10:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: It has just as much of a potential to be
• 10:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: a damage and a detriment to the souls of people, if sin is left, uncomfronted, and undelt with.
• 10:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: This was a topic that you brought to me, I was a couple weeks ago at this point, kind of centering around this quote, from a, from a W tozer that some individuals are
• 11:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: to try to justify perhaps a disposition toward individuals that have been hurt by the church.
• 11:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, Jack, I'm going to throw this over to you, man, and I want you to take this wheel and drive us where we're going.
• 11:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I would say it was, I think it was a couple days ago, more than a couple weeks ago, but I'm tired.
• 11:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm tired.
• 11:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember.
• 11:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
• 11:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: I've handed every whole of the podcast off to Jack with everything I've been dealing with.
• 11:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: Just do give us a topic and I'll show up and talk about it.
• 11:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: I promise.
• 11:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, the quote.
• 11:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 11:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: So the quote that I saw is this quote.
• 11:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: Somebody posted to actually on Facebook and just said this and I think left it alone or something like that.
• 11:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: The quote is by A. W. Tosure, he says, if being hurt by the church causes you to lose faith in God, then your faith was in people, not God, so immediately when I saw that, I could say,
• 12:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Josh and I talked about the weaponization of that quote can be used pretty hard core.
• 12:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that I've seen it a lot.
• 12:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: Mainly, or mainly within my past church, I have seen it a lot with other churches as well too.
• 12:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: I've seen it to where it's been utilized in a way that if you leave our church,
• 12:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: In some ways, you are becoming an apostate, which is not 100% true.
• 12:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I felt like, where first of all, I felt like if I'm using this as a sermon,
• 12:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, first of all, how's this quote land?
• 12:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Where do we need more, I guess, more definition on it?
• 13:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: And where's this quote kind of taking us?
• 13:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think Josh to you and I asked the question, where does that quote land with you when you hear that?
• 13:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 13:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, exactly.
• 13:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think so if we're just isolating the quote itself, right, and a part from anybody trying to use the quote or whatever, right, the theology of the quote is true.
• 13:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I agree with tozer.
• 13:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: So if we're going to like just look at the quote itself, what he is saying is true and what I mean by that is
• 13:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: that I think there is because, you know, look, we've, we've been the whole deconstruction movement, right?
• 13:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: Really found it's kind of peak during, like, COVID, right?
• 13:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: And like, say, it was really, really kind of a huge thing that the church was dealing with during those times.
• 13:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I will say where I believe the quote is correct and where I think the heart of the quote is
• 14:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: incorrectly viewed the faithfulness of Christ and the truth of the gospel through the actions of those that claimed to follow him.
• 14:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we have to be very clear in concise that we are fallen creatures.
• 14:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: we are finite, and we are stained with sin, though we profess that Christ frees us from sin, we know that we still deal with it, right?
• 14:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that some people are,
• 14:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: Jumping and utilizing the fact that they have been sinned against or hurt in the church and Making the jump that well then that must just mean that everything these people say and do Follow suit that it's wrong right and I will say this although There's a lot of reasons why individuals would come to that point and a lot of things that need to be addressed
• 15:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's intellectually, it's intellectually dishonest to utilize that argumentation because if we were going to use that argumentation with these individuals that deconstructed and we were going to go through their life well you're going to find a lot of very similar things that rightly by your own actions and your own I think barometer have to be called into question right so I have seen a lot of individuals.
• 15:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: utilize church hurt and things that were done to them, things that were said to them, as an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway, and that is to not be held accountable to the word of God.
• 15:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
• 15:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, that's one side, right?
• 15:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you have the other side where
• 15:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: like I think we have to be careful not to pendulum swing because I know there's a lot of guys that see that see what I'm seeing and and have dealt with that and I think go too far in the other direction Jack and they
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: say, okay, well, then anything that even smells like deconstruction or church hurt, I'm just going to disregard as these people being dishonest, these people just wanting to be their own authority, their own gods.
• 16:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: And although that is true in in some cases, right, we have to be diligent, biblically, and look at each case in and of itself, right?
• 16:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it has resulted
• 16:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: within the church being overlooked that shouldn't be overlooked a lot of sin patterns being swept under the rug that shouldn't be swept under the rug because all these people said that they were heard in church and they deconstructed it's like okay well yeah they shouldn't like deconstruction should not be the response to that but that does not mean that there isn't actually something wrong here that needs to be addressed biblically.
• 17:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
• 17:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: So that's what I would say is I think it's both like I think the quote enough itself is correct and it's theology, but I think people are utilizing that in a lot of cases to not have to address, you know, maybe your church just the maybe the polity is like unhealthy.
• 17:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe the way that you go about counseling people is unhealthy.
• 17:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe your understanding of law and gospel is skewed and unbiblical.
• 17:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: And you are preaching more law than you are gospel, right?
• 17:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's so many factors that need to be looked into.
• 17:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we have to be diligent.
• 17:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: and good churchmen, and not just blank its sweeping across everything that smells like deconstruction, like show me, show me what happened, and I'll make the judgment case, obviously, when I when I hold that up to the lens of Scripture.
• 17:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this is where I kind of move in a point too.
• 18:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: I wish there is more definition that he put on to this and maybe and he can't see in the future for us to be quite honest.
• 18:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: So he, I don't think a W Tozier could have saw into the future of 2020 and saw what he's happening right and put a little bit more meat on that bone.
• 18:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: So to say, but I think the the definition that needs to come into play here.
• 18:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: is if you are being hurt by the church and I think that that key word there is church.
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: If you're being hurt by leaders and if you're being hurt and by a way in which the leadership is enabling the congregation to go after you.
• 18:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of gray that I feel like this quote doesn't get to get into a certain way.
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I think that in our culture, we do have this way in which it depends upon what you mean by hurt, too.
• 19:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Because I saw this from multiple different fronts, right?
• 19:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: If you think being hurt by the church means another person has sinned against you,
• 19:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, that's partially a definition of that.
• 19:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like going a little bit more forward in saying, her by the church means like your leaders were making really bad decisions.
• 19:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: And those bad decisions came down on you and basically made a way in which you had to make a either you were being sent against and they weren't acknowledging that.
• 19:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: or you were basically, hey, that decision that you made against that person was not in line biblically, and you need to repent to that, guys, and they didn't do that.
• 19:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Or they didn't say, and they omitted a lot of the sin that they did, or a lot of the decisions that they made that were not biblical in that.
• 19:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think we need to kind of put more definition on it in that way.
• 20:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: We had a situation in my previous church in which our pastor was not being forthright in a lot of things.
• 20:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: And half of the elders said, Hey, we don't feel like you are holding up to being a biblically qualified elder, you know, as the lead pastor.
• 20:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: And in that situation,
• 20:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: There was a vote, do we keep them on as a lead pastor or do we not?
• 20:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: And the vote was basically split 50, 50, but one pastor went over to the other side and said, No, it does not disqualify him.
• 20:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that felt like that was a reputation against a lot of decisions that they were making at that time.
• 20:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: and a lot of people felt at that point of like, that's kind of the icing on the cake.
• 21:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
• 21:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: As far as, okay, that validates a lot of stuff.
• 21:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, a lot of people stayed around and then ended up leaving because of certain situations that started to trickle down a little bit more.
• 21:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: But I felt like for me there was a lot of hurt that went into even before that to where my role was terminated and I was being forced out of a position within the church on staff.
• 21:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: and people weren't being forthright about what was going on.
• 21:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: I, at that time, was being a little bit more integral and kind of following along with this because I didn't really know how to deal with it.
• 21:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so I really just kind of stayed at the church versus leaving.
• 21:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: But also the messaging towards me as well, too, was that of Marcel, which is, if you leave this church, there is nobody like us.
• 21:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 21:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: We are the varsity Christians of the church.
• 22:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: And if you leave, you basically considered an apostate.
• 22:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 22:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
• 22:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I could see it from the dynamic of that perspective.
• 22:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: What I question is the dynamic in which a member
• 22:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: willfully and willfully sins in a way that is really kind of heinous or maybe just is starting to go on this deconstruction route and just says, I'm not a Christian anymore.
• 22:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Mike, okay, like, first of all, how did that happen?
• 22:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: And we're the leaders involved.
• 22:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're people of the church involved.
• 22:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: There needs to be more definition.
• 22:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I wish in some sense that A.W.
• 22:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: Tosure had a little bit more meat on that bone for his quote and could see, but he can't.
• 22:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: But I do agree in that sense of that there is not
• 22:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: um, what should not make you lose faith is the actions of people.
• 23:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
• 23:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: The actions of people in the church.
• 23:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: If you have a good anthropology of man, you know that man is sinful, and man will continue to make sinful decisions.
• 23:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: And unfortunately, that seeps into the church a lot of times.
• 23:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so, if you have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that you believe in the trying God of Scripture, and that He is ultimately leading you and guiding you and tearing with you.
• 23:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: then your faith will not be lost because you left that church because of simple decisions made by man and go to another church.
• 23:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that I think he's right on that track, right?
• 23:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now if you're complete faith,
• 23:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: is wrapped up in an individual and the pastor's word is God's word.
• 23:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: There is a lot of stuff that you need to peel back.
• 23:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't ever say whoa.
• 23:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 23:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: And which I would say it is a good thing to basically say whoa, why am I being
• 24:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: basically a costed and saying that I'm a prostate for leaving a church that I felt like those decisions that I made were right and calling out the leaders, but they're calling me something else.
• 24:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's where I think you have not lost faith.
• 24:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: You're actually being biblical and wanting transparency and accountability for your coach leaders in that sense.
• 24:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so yeah, that's where I talk about definition and why we need more definitions to this quote than what it leads on to a
• 24:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, this quotes used by the prosperity gospel in saying, like, well, like, that was your fault, and, you know, stuff like that.
• 24:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: And you didn't trust the anointed man of God and all this stuff.
• 24:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Or it could be weaponized in a way of, you know, saying, well, they weren't really, and then weaponized the scripture to well, they weren't really one of us because they left.
• 24:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, well, we don't really know the whole situation to that unless we actually be transparent in our congregation and peel that back more.
• 25:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah and do more business with that.
• 25:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, I don't know if you have any response to yeah, no, no for sure.
• 25:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean on the bone there.
• 25:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's, you know, the word of God provides clarity.
• 25:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what it does, right?
• 25:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: And
• 25:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: I have, I have some frustrations with the term church hurt these days because it's kind of gotten the same treatment that the term trauma has gotten in the counseling sphere, right?
• 25:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: Where everything is trauma.
• 25:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: I have trauma from this.
• 25:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: I have trauma from that.
• 25:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: Everything is trauma.
• 25:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: When everything is trauma, nothing's trauma, right?
• 25:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what's happened with the term church hurt, right?
• 25:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: Is oh, so and so said something mean to me, so and so, you know, treated me this way, I have church hurt, right?
• 25:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: Or, you know, someone, you know, heaven forbid, someone called me to repent from sleeping with my girlfriend, I have church hurt, right?
• 26:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: And
• 26:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's where those definitions like you're saying have to come into play like when we're talking about church here when we're talking about trauma What are we talking about because there has to be some sort of line right me calling you to repent Does not give you church hurt
• 26:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: it hurt your flesh, but it is not the church hurting you, right?
• 26:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that the everyday sins that people commit to one another within the church is categorized as church.
• 26:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: Now it's wrong, right?
• 26:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's sinful.
• 26:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's something that needs to be repented of and the gospel if the gospel needs to be applied to that.
• 26:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: But you can't be so sensitive and I would say Jack,
• 26:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: And, and, you know, this is me saying this.
• 26:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is just coming from a pastoral, pastoral.
• 26:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: You can't be so sensitive, so self-focused that a sinful word sends to you, sends you into a spiral, right?
• 27:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: At a certain point, right?
• 27:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, where is your foundation, right?
• 27:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: Where is your hope, right?
• 27:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: If it tells me a lot when
• 27:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: a simple word or a slight sense someone into a spiral.
• 27:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that tells me about the fragility of just their spiritual existence.
• 27:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: Again, it doesn't excuse the sin at all.
• 27:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: It needs to be addressed, but
• 27:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: We have to have some definitions like you're saying like we have to we have to be clear in what we're talking about because if everything's church or nothing is right so yeah I think that's part of my frustration with this discussion not like not the discussion we're having just the overarching discussion is that.
• 27:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: It seems like the standard has gotten so low as what constitutes trauma or what constitutes torture that individuals like that that that that you and I have talked to instances that you and I have experienced that are honestly actually traumatic like spiritual abuse has happened.
• 28:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that gets lumped into the same as in the same group as, you know, you know, you know, Sally, you know, did this in this to me on she said this it was kind of snarky and I have church hurts like, yeah, you know, like it wasn't right for her to do that.
• 28:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: but that's not what we're talking about, exactly.
• 28:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not on the, it's like the guy who, and I'll get in trouble with his, but it's like the veteran who saw like no combat, complaining about some of the things he went through in the service to a veteran who lost both his legs.
• 28:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, it's going to be like, you know, you know, I get it.
• 28:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, there are some things where it's relative, depending to the individual, but all things being equal, my friend.
• 28:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think you experience the same thing that this guy, you know what I'm saying?
• 28:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's, yeah, it, it, it starts to take on that reality.
• 29:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's where, like, in that aspect of the code, I agree.
• 29:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: But again, we cannot use that as an excuse.
• 29:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: to not utilize the scriptures, to look through fine sin patterns, address them with the word, root them out, right?
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: So that there can be health in our churches, and there can be actual a progress made with the community in our church, right?
• 29:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: If you are seeing this pattern of individuals being hurt by leaders, yeah, guess what?
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: You should probably look at that.
• 29:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: If you have a, I mean, I mean, I mean, just in your, in your situation, as you have half the church, not having confidence in this guy as a pastor, you should probably look at that.
• 29:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
• 29:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's where we have to not abandon our theology and that, yeah, not ultimately if this person lost their faith in Christ, like, ultimately, yes, we are responsible for our actions.
• 30:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: But that doesn't give us credence just to be like, well, that's completely on them.
• 30:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's continue to move on like we've been moving on.
• 30:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: And no, maybe there were some contributing factors there that again doesn't mean you're responsible for their quote unquote deconstruction, but you were definitely a tool that Satan used to bring it about.
• 30:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: right and we shouldn't be we shouldn't be content with that right as as we need to let the word of God do what the word of God does but yeah no I agree man definitions matter when we're talking about things like church hurt and things like trauma we got to be clear about what we're talking about right and it gives us the ability to I think minister to those that have actually gone through some really hard things
• 30:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's hard to do that when, you know, everybody is claiming church hurt from things that are just, yeah, I wouldn't.
• 30:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: I just say don't fall under that, under that parameter.
• 31:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 31:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 31:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: What would you say, where should we kind of go from here?
• 31:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: As far as that quote goes.
• 31:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I mean, I think, again, don't abandon your theology, right?
• 31:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: God is sovereign over salvation, but we are responsible for how we act as Christians.
• 31:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you've got to hold both.
• 31:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's like, yeah, we do trust in the Lord to preserve and to hold those that are His, right?
• 31:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't abandon that truth, but we also realize that God utilizes means to do that.
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, we are the means that he has sovereignly ordained to bring people into the kingdom and, you know, like scripture is very clear right like we are known we they the world shall know us by our love for one another right we have so many exhortations in scripture.
• 31:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: Regarding how we should interact with one another as brothers and sisters.
• 31:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: and we can't abandon that.
• 31:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: We can't abandon it and we have to be holding the truth of scripture as our authority, as our practice.
• 32:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: And when we do that, things get a lot, a lot simpler, sin is called out quickly, and restoration happens, and that's what the local church should be about.
• 32:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I see it was ready to rock.
• 32:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: He wants to do the pod like was coming up.
• 32:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: You knew the pod like was coming up.
• 32:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, my time has come.
• 32:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: My time has come.
• 32:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I would say too.
• 32:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, just, I think qualifying, shirt shirt, I think you're right on that.
• 32:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, we need to define it a little bit better.
• 32:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: If it's, if it's you asking questions and maybe the leader's not responding very well, I don't want to say that's shirt shirt, but I would say that's not them leading very well.
• 32:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I think there's a there's a huge difference between covering up the fact that an elder is voted as not vividly qualified and sweeping that under the rug versus Sally's gossiping about somebody else, you know, this is exactly equivalent.
• 33:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: To be there both wrong, right, but yeah, you know, yeah, the levels of there's simply there's yeah, there's there's a level of yeah, there's levels of that that's that's different.
• 33:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah
• 33:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: We have any final thoughts.
• 33:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so, man.
• 33:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was a great topic.
• 33:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for taking the lead on this one.
• 33:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, let's go.
• 33:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's wrap up and go talk to some of our patrons.
• 33:25
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• 33:26
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• 33:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: We owe them some episodes.
• 33:31
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• 33:59
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• 34:02
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• 34:12
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• 34:16
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• 34:20
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• 34:22
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• 34:24
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• 34:26
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• 34:29
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• 34:32
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• 34:34
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• 34:36
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• 34:40
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• 34:45
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• 34:48
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• 34:56
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• 35:03
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• 35:15
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• 35:24
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