Latest / Your Money, Your Rules | Financial Mastery, Wealth Mindset, Leadership Principles, Intuitive Decision-Making, Human Design / 55 | Getting Divorced? CDFA Jamie Lima Shares Must-Know Tips

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55 | Getting Divorced? CDFA Jamie Lima Shares Must-Know Tips · Your Money, Your Rules | Financial Mastery, Wealth Mindset, Leadership Principles, Intuitive Decision-Making, Human Design

0:00
Erin Gray: You're listening to Generate a Life Well-Lived podcast.
0:03
Erin Gray: I'm your friend and confidant, erin Gray.
0:05
Erin Gray: I'm a former certified financial planner, turned human design, financial mentor and guide to entrepreneurs.
0:10
Erin Gray: I believe our money and our business can only thrive at the level of our emotional wellbeing.
0:16
Erin Gray: I empower entrepreneurs to feel confident with their money and in their business so that they can have fun now and in the future.
0:22
Erin Gray: On this podcast, we will explore all things money, business and self-development, including human design.
0:28
Erin Gray: I hope you enjoy the journey where I share everything that I know and am continuing to learn along the way, as I honor my heart's desires while inspiring and encouraging you to do the same.
0:38
Erin Gray: Hi, how are you this week?
0:41
Erin Gray: So I missed you guys.
0:43
Erin Gray: Last week.
0:44
Erin Gray: I did not put out an episode.
0:46
Erin Gray: Last Sunday, jason, my husband, was mountain biking up in the mountain where we go and ski in the wintertime and he was going too fast.
0:58
Erin Gray: He his foot slipped off of his pedal, he hit the crossbar, I'm sure he did some acrobatics and he landed on his back and he I don't know how he got home.
1:11
Erin Gray: It's a probably an hour hour 15 minute drive home, but he said I just asked myself how do I get to the next stop sign, how do I get to the next stoplight?
1:20
Erin Gray: And so by the time he got home and I was um talking to a friend when I got off of the call, he was laying on the floor because that was the only place he could lay.
1:31
Erin Gray: So we spent the last week I've spent the last week probably playing a little bit of a nurse and all the things up in the middle of the night, um, for those first couple of nights, because he just could not get out of bed.
1:44
Erin Gray: Taking a shower was difficult for him.
1:52
Erin Gray: So it's been a week and I always think that everything is happening for us and one of the things that I think what it showed me is that I could do is say no when I want to say no, and we've had very honest conversations that you know you get to go and play and do all of the crazy things and if you continue to injure yourself, I may not be the person that's going to be your nurse, and that's okay.
2:18
Erin Gray: So I'm grateful for the experience.
2:22
Erin Gray: You know, I always think that things happen for a reason and they show us probably what needs to come up and be worked through and healed, and so so here we are, so I'm happy to be back on this week's podcast.
2:37
Erin Gray: I have interviewed Jamie Lima.
2:38
Erin Gray: He is a certified divorce financial analyst and he helps mainly women through divorce in an empowered, easy, educational way.
2:51
Erin Gray: So let's dive into the conversation that Jamie and I had about divorce, money, understanding how to navigate divorce and all the other fun facts that we discussed on our podcast.
3:05
Erin Gray: Hey, hey, my friends, how are we today?
3:07
Erin Gray: So on today's podcast, we're going to talk about divorce and just things that this is, to be honest, this is a complete, probably podcast educational for me because, uh, I it's been 20 something years since I've been divorced and I did not have the assets that I have now, and so it's just an interesting conversation to have, and so I brought on Jamie Lima, who is a certified divorce Is it financial analyst?
3:36
Erin Gray: Okay, um, and so we're going to dive into, like, what is the difference from a CDFA to a CFP and things to consider when getting divorced, and just, yeah, it's going to be a learning experience for me too.
3:47
Erin Gray: So thanks, jamie, for coming on and sharing your time with us Totally welcome.
3:52
Jamie Lima: Glad to be here.
3:53
Erin Gray: So let's dive in.
3:54
Erin Gray: So tell us what is the difference between a CDFA and then a CFP?
3:59
Jamie Lima: Great question.
3:59
Erin Gray: So, CDFAs.
4:01
Jamie Lima: Think of a CDFA a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst as someone that helps you point in time with your divorce, all the financial nuances of your divorce, point in time, right Like there's a day when you decide that you're going to get divorced.
4:17
Jamie Lima: That's when you should be calling us so we can help.
4:20
Jamie Lima: Or maybe, even before you say those words to your significant other, you should be calling someone like myself to help triage your situation, get an understanding of what's at stake and maybe start thinking through different strategies you're going to want to employ and so on, before you drop the dreaded D word.
4:33
Jamie Lima: So we'll, and as a CDFA we'll hold your hand all the way through the divorce proceedings until effectively you are, they give you the stamp of approval and they give you the congratulations You're divorced is what I got from the judge in my case.
4:50
Jamie Lima: And then there's also a little bit of a transition.
4:53
Jamie Lima: We do what's called transition assistance after the divorce is finalized.
4:58
Jamie Lima: So you may have to divide up retirement accounts, you may have to divide up a brokerage account.
5:03
Jamie Lima: You may have to hire a realtor and put the house on the market for sale and then figure out what to do with those proceeds.
5:09
Jamie Lima: Later We'll work with our clients to help them navigate the transition after divorce into their newfound lifestyle.
5:17
Jamie Lima: So it's day one of divorce all the decisions you have to make along the way.
5:21
Jamie Lima: We'll also help with the calculations of things like child support, alimony, understanding the after-tax valuation of the assets you have, because taxes are taken into consideration in a lot of instances in divorce.
5:34
Jamie Lima: We'll work with you on strategy of what do I want to keep, what do I want to give up, and so on.
5:39
Jamie Lima: So there's all those decisions you have to make in divorce.
5:43
Jamie Lima: That's what we'll.
5:44
Jamie Lima: We'll help you with all the financial.
5:45
Jamie Lima: We stay I stay out of the legal realm.
5:47
Jamie Lima: I am not an attorney.
5:48
Jamie Lima: I don't want to be one.
5:49
Jamie Lima: We work with a lot of amazing attorneys, but we we.
5:52
Jamie Lima: So we stay in our lane on the financial side and we let the attorneys stay in their lane on the financial no-transcript to do.
6:13
Jamie Lima: Do they have a 401k?
6:14
Jamie Lima: You know how?
6:14
Jamie Lima: Are they investing in it, and all of those types of questions and planning around those things right?
6:21
Jamie Lima: So there is some goal setting and getting an understanding of what the client really wants in the end, just like we would do in a traditional financial planning engagement as CFPs, as certified financial planners.
6:32
Jamie Lima: But I always tell people like the CFP I start to wear my CFP hat once we get closer to the end and we start figuring out like, okay, what does the next 5, 10, 20 years of your life look like?
6:46
Jamie Lima: The CDFA work helps us make decisions today, make the best financial decisions we can, but also melding them together, both designations and both levels of experience that I have allows me to say, okay, hey, aaron, if you're going to make this decision today, this is what's going to do five, 10, 20 years in the future for you, right?
7:05
Jamie Lima: So there's, there's uh, there's definitely some blurred lines between the both roles, but that's effectively how the two differ.
7:13
Erin Gray: Yeah, so do you work with?
7:15
Erin Gray: If somebody already has a financial planner, do you work with them at all?
7:18
Erin Gray: Or how does that work for it?
7:20
Erin Gray: Because in the middle of divorce, right Like you're trying to, you know, calculate assets and things, things of that sort.
7:26
Erin Gray: So is it kind of a collaboration if they don't, if they already have an advisor, Is that something that you kind of look at?
7:33
Erin Gray: Or you're just kind of taking financial statements and kind of just looking at just kind of inventory and things of that sort?
7:39
Jamie Lima: We'll.
7:40
Jamie Lima: We'll work with anybody who is on the team.
7:42
Jamie Lima: Okay, right, we are.
7:45
Jamie Lima: I am not here.
7:45
Jamie Lima: So if you're a financial planner who is listening to this, we are not here to steal your clients.
7:48
Jamie Lima: Yeah, we are here to put your clients in a much better financial position moving forward.
7:53
Jamie Lima: So when the dust is settled on the divorce and they do have some assets that need to be managed or they do need help figuring out what their financial future looks like, we hand them off to you and you're run with it.
8:02
Jamie Lima: So we work very collaboratively with um I, I call it team.
8:07
Jamie Lima: You right like yeah, you're a therapist, you're a financial planner, you're a tax person, you're attorney.
8:14
Jamie Lima: Sometimes you're a state planning attorney, depending on how.
8:17
Jamie Lima: What's, what's at stake there, all of it.
8:20
Jamie Lima: We want your divorce coach.
8:21
Jamie Lima: We want to work with everybody.
8:22
Jamie Lima: We are not here to poach anybody's clients.
8:25
Jamie Lima: We we are here to make sure that, when the dust has settled, you can look back and go wow, that was.
8:32
Jamie Lima: It was a little bit of an investment, but it was well worth the while.
8:35
Erin Gray: Yeah, and if they don't have an advisor, then, because you do wear the CFP hat, you could just naturally transition into taking care of them and helping them.
8:42
Erin Gray: After all the dust is settled, sign on the dotted line and like okay, now, now, what do we want to do and what do we want to create?
8:50
Jamie Lima: Absolutely, it makes.
8:50
Jamie Lima: It makes a hundred percent.
8:52
Jamie Lima: It makes a hundred percent.
8:53
Jamie Lima: You know, I mean um, spot on where, when you've been working with us for six months, maybe a year, maybe longer, unfortunately, if the divorce is taking time you start to build a rapport and a relationship with people and people start to feel more comfortable with you and they recognize, like wow, like they really are here to help.
9:09
Jamie Lima: They're not here to take my money.
9:10
Jamie Lima: Um, and that's that's always the approach we have.
9:13
Jamie Lima: Um, it's a natural segue into traditional retirement planning and cause we already know where all the bodies are buried, right, and we already, we've already have an inventory of the statement.
9:22
Jamie Lima: You know the accounts and so on and so forth.
9:24
Jamie Lima: So it's a it's a natural segue, for sure.
9:26
Erin Gray: Yeah.
9:27
Erin Gray: So you already kind of mentioned this of like okay, if you like, if you already know you are getting divorced, like it might like when do clients typically come to you and when would you suggest that clients?
9:38
Erin Gray: You know, I kind of take from the emotional standpoint right Like nothing needs to be hurried, nothing needs to be rushed, and also from a planning perspective, right Like before you're like, hey, we're done, you know it might make some sense to come and call Jamie and be like, hey, this is kind of what we're pondering and I and I also to each of you listening like divorce, I think has such a bad rap, at least in the Western society.
10:00
Erin Gray: Right Like you hear about everybody having like contentious divorces, and like you're fighting over money and like you're using children to pit against each other and it's just like how can we do it in the most loving way?
10:09
Erin Gray: Right Like to ourselves, to the people that we at some point in time.
10:13
Erin Gray: Right Like there was something that we loved about that person, right, so like doing that from a place of of love and nourishing, and like how can everyone win?
10:21
Erin Gray: Versus?
10:21
Erin Gray: Like I think sometimes money gets to be like the bargaining chip, right Versus like how do I want to take care of and how do I want to be while I'm going through this divorce?
10:32
Jamie Lima: There's a lot to unpack there.
10:34
Jamie Lima: For sure we can do a whole other episode on.
10:36
Jamie Lima: You know using financial tools and and using finances as a weapon, and you know parental alienation and all the other stuff that goes on in these cases, that that are effectively just used to create more tension in in within divorce.
10:51
Jamie Lima: But the the the first part of the question was when?
10:55
Jamie Lima: When should somebody reach out?
10:56
Jamie Lima: I tell people all the time we should be the first call.
10:58
Jamie Lima: If you're thinking because this, especially in 99% of the people we work with, are women, okay, mainly because and I'm I believe this wholeheartedly now that I've been doing this for so long Women are much smarter than men.
11:11
Jamie Lima: That's just.
11:13
Jamie Lima: That's just how it goes.
11:14
Erin Gray: Men, I love you men.
11:16
Jamie Lima: I love you dudes too.
11:17
Jamie Lima: I love you.
11:18
Jamie Lima: I love you bros too.
11:19
Jamie Lima: But let me tell you, let me.
11:20
Jamie Lima: There are so many women that reach out because they recognize that maybe, if they let their emotions get involved there and they don't, and a lot of them don't they never were the financial decision maker in the household.
11:31
Jamie Lima: Right, that's just the unfortunate as it is.
11:34
Jamie Lima: That's how.
11:35
Jamie Lima: That's how society has really worked.
11:37
Jamie Lima: You see this in your own life too, right?
11:39
Jamie Lima: Like so many times I've had a conversation with clients.
11:42
Jamie Lima: I've been doing this almost 20 years and so many times we have these conversations and it's the dude who is the chief financial officer of the home making all the decisions, and the wife is along for the ride, and then the next thing, you know, they decide they're going to get a divorce and she's clueless yeah.
11:57
Jamie Lima: So if that's you, ladies, you need to stop that.
12:00
Jamie Lima: You need to start taking ownership of the financial situation in the household.
12:06
Jamie Lima: But getting back to the question, the reason why I say reaching out to us first is because the mistake that most people make is they pick up the phone as soon as they decide they want a divorce and they call their attorney.
12:19
Jamie Lima: They call an attorney or they call multiple attorneys and then they settle on one and the next thing you know they've paid $10,000 retainer and all that $10,000 does is get them through the initial stages of filing for the divorce and gathering some information and so on.
12:33
Jamie Lima: And then pretty soon the attorney's calling for another $10,000 retainer because they actually have to fight the divorce or they have to go through and be taken through mediation and you're burning money unnecessarily.
12:43
Jamie Lima: Now I understand there's certain situations where it's just going to be heavily contentious and there's no way around going through this without an attorney.
12:50
Jamie Lima: But at least let us help you with that decision.
12:55
Jamie Lima: I can see we have complimentary conversations with people all day long.
12:59
Jamie Lima: I'm in three to five conversations like that every day where it's like okay, tell me more about what's going on and let me figure out how to help you and what your next best step is.
13:07
Jamie Lima: And sometimes it's hiring a divorce attorney.
13:11
Jamie Lima: Sometimes it's why don't you hire us first?
13:15
Jamie Lima: Let's see where all the financial information?
13:18
Jamie Lima: Get all the financial information together, let's start building out some different strategies, some things you're going to need to think about, and then, if it's going to get really complicated, we'll bring in an attorney at that point and we'll bring them up to speed.
13:30
Jamie Lima: But the mistake people make all the time is making calling an attorney first and I'm going to make some enemies in this call based on the comments about the dudes earlier and this one coming up about attorneys.
13:42
Jamie Lima: But many times attorneys are there to rack up the billable hours.
13:46
Jamie Lima: Can you imagine?
13:49
Jamie Lima: Think about you specifically you, aaron, like you're a CFP.
13:53
Jamie Lima: You've been doing this for a long time.
13:54
Jamie Lima: There's a lot that you have to understand about the world of finance to do the work that we do.
13:59
Erin Gray: Yeah.
14:00
Jamie Lima: Those attorneys are not trained to do that work, Just like I'm not trained to create interrogatories and take people through depositions and things of that nature.
14:10
Jamie Lima: Let's just all stay in our lane.
14:12
Jamie Lima: Attorneys are notorious for trying to come over to the financial side and all that does is burn money.
14:17
Jamie Lima: Does that make sense?
14:20
Erin Gray: That makes a lot of sense.
14:20
Erin Gray: I'm pondering this as like and I know Jamie said I'm a CFP, I used to be, and I also know, like, how much you know, like you're saying, how much time and effort and education that goes into that.
14:32
Erin Gray: And also, like you said, like if and I think it comes from a genuine place, right, like maybe the attorneys are wanting to help their clients, you know, with that, but it's also like also can we stay in our lane and like what do we do really well?
14:46
Erin Gray: And attorneys do attorney stuff really well, right, and letting you, like you're saying, letting you do the, the financial and the and, like you said, like you also do mediation, right, so like, maybe we don't even need like.
14:59
Erin Gray: I think that is like the first like thing we go to is like I need an attorney, it's like, but an attorney can be from the place of like we're not even getting along.
15:08
Erin Gray: Nothing is like.
15:09
Erin Gray: If you have a, what do you call it?
15:12
Erin Gray: The opposite of contentious, like a contested.
15:15
Erin Gray: Yeah, okay, you know, like if you're on speaking terms and you can do some mediation, like how much, like you're talking about, how much that can save you in emotional turmoil and also financial, if you just kind of, you're kind of like a one-stop shop in that regard.
15:31
Erin Gray: You know, like you you've got all that already rolled in, you know like you are the mediator and you are able to look at the finances.
15:40
Jamie Lima: And, and it wants a CFP, always a CFP.
15:42
Jamie Lima: By the way, you're always going to think of the CFP brain, right?
15:43
Jamie Lima: But you know, as a CFP, always a CFP.
15:44
Jamie Lima: By the way, you're always going to think of the CFP brain, right, that's true.
15:45
Jamie Lima: But you know, as a CFP, we have a fiduciary standard we have to abide by.
15:48
Jamie Lima: Yep.
15:50
Jamie Lima: Part of that is providing, you know, avoiding conflicts of interest.
15:52
Jamie Lima: Number one, and number two, giving the highest and best advice we possibly can give at any time.
15:58
Jamie Lima: Yep, yep.
16:02
Jamie Lima: So when people come to us and they go, the first question I ask always is what's on your mind?
16:07
Jamie Lima: And then they go through the whole thing, right, they tell us what's going on, why they got to be in front of us, and so on and so forth, and then I can go, I can sit there and go.
16:14
Jamie Lima: Okay, here's what I recommend.
16:17
Jamie Lima: You know, like you come see me, come back and see me in three months, when you get this stuff sorted out, the first thing you need to go through is family therapy, or you need to make sure you're in a safe place, because we work with a lot of people that are going through domestic violence situations or financial abuse and so on, and we've got to get that safe first.
16:34
Jamie Lima: Our work.
16:34
Jamie Lima: We're not going anywhere.
16:35
Jamie Lima: I've been doing this 20 years, so I can wait three months for somebody to hire us, but I can help triage them and figure out which was the best direction to go.
16:43
Jamie Lima: If they take our advice, great.
16:45
Jamie Lima: If not, at least they have some more education.
16:47
Jamie Lima: But the mediation piece is amazing.
16:51
Jamie Lima: I have a couple that I'm working with.
16:53
Jamie Lima: We're starting our first session tonight with them and the plan is that we have three sessions back to back.
16:59
Jamie Lima: We have a I'm sorry we have a session tonight and then we have two scheduled for next week by Thursday of next week.
17:05
Jamie Lima: We're recording this on a Tuesday, so within 10 days they're going to have the documents they need in an agreement in place to be divorced and it's going to cost them less than 2000 bucks.
17:14
Erin Gray: That's amazing, yeah, and you think about and I think this is also like knowledge, right, like when I said at the very beginning of the podcast it's like part of this is like also me learning about this, because maybe that existed 20 years ago for me I have no idea Like that was just, like I was just like I asked my financial planner, like, okay, give me some names of attorneys and let me go.
17:33
Erin Gray: Like you just said, let me go interview them, and then that was my next step, versus no, this is now an actual option for you, and maybe you do end up going with an attorney, but at least you have the education and the knowledge that this is, this actually exists out there and that it can be, uh, and it can be an easeful process, right, like.
17:52
Erin Gray: This goes back to like, how do we want to be in our divorce?
17:55
Erin Gray: Do we want to string it out?
17:56
Erin Gray: Do we want to play the power play or do we want to be like you know what?
17:59
Erin Gray: We don't get along anymore?
18:01
Erin Gray: We've agreed on that and we want, you know, to separate and not no longer share our lives together.
18:06
Erin Gray: And also, what is, what is a way that we can do that in the, in the when I say least amount of time, you know what I mean Like we don't have to drag it out, it doesn't have to be like that.
18:16
Erin Gray: So do you want to share you know, some of you kind of, in a way, done that already like some of your experiences, like, do you have a lot of people that come in and it is contentious, but you just shared this one client who's like you know what, in 10 days we'll be done?
18:27
Erin Gray: And, um, like to the listener, what would you advise or what would you ask them to consider when it comes time for a divorce?
18:36
Erin Gray: And what you have seen, I guess let's say that I, I will.
18:42
Jamie Lima: This isn't?
18:42
Jamie Lima: That's another great question.
18:43
Jamie Lima: I had a conversation with somebody yesterday about this and I think my my, looking back at my own divorce, my biggest mistake was was first calling the attorney.
18:55
Jamie Lima: You know, sorry, he's a great, amazing man.
18:57
Jamie Lima: He's amazing attorney.
18:58
Jamie Lima: He helped me through this process.
18:59
Jamie Lima: We're still friends to this day.
19:00
Jamie Lima: So he actually came to my wedding.
19:01
Jamie Lima: I'm remarried.
19:02
Jamie Lima: Since remarried, he my divorce attorney was at my wedding, so that tells you how close we were.
19:05
Jamie Lima: But, um, you know, I, I, the first mistake I made was to call, call someone like that, and mine was very contentious.
19:12
Jamie Lima: It was very heated, it was.
19:13
Jamie Lima: I was promised that it was going to be very expensive and and and that came to fruition.
19:18
Jamie Lima: Um, but I, I mentioned team you earlier and that you're, you know, your therapist, your friends and family, you're, you know, making your workplace aware of what's going on so they can help support you.
19:34
Erin Gray: Yeah.
19:35
Jamie Lima: Getting your attorneys, getting your CDFAs you know all the people like surrounding you.
19:40
Jamie Lima: Looking through who you're the closest people are to you, the most important people to you and putting them on notice and getting them, you know, getting them on team you.
19:48
Jamie Lima: One of the biggest mistakes I made along the way was was not doing that and also shutting out my family.
19:54
Jamie Lima: I wanted to make sure for me it was a way for me to protect them.
20:01
Erin Gray: You mean like your extended, you mean like your mom.
20:03
Erin Gray: Yeah, you know mom and dad.
20:04
Jamie Lima: Yeah, you know mom and dad, you know sister, you know aunts and uncles, cousins, you know that type of thing.
20:08
Jamie Lima: Yeah, we had a very close family and when I, when I decided I wanted a divorce, I was like I'm just gonna, I'm gonna keep them out of it, like here's what's happening, letting you know I'm good, and I didn't bring them up to speed on it.
20:24
Jamie Lima: It was.
20:24
Jamie Lima: It was definitely a shock for them because I just had played along Like everything was amazing for years, when I knew, probably three years prior, that I had wanted a divorce, and by shutting them out, not only did it, did I lose support that I needed at the time, but it also allowed for opportunities for some alienation to come into play.
20:46
Jamie Lima: So my ex-spouse reached out to my family, got her claws in them and the next thing you know like, told all kinds of stories that weren't true and everything else, and I lost some family relationships because of that.
20:56
Jamie Lima: So had I just swallowed my pride a little bit and and and shoved my ego to the side and said, hey guys, listen, this is what's happening.
21:02
Jamie Lima: I want you to know I'm okay, I'm going to, I'll keep you posted.
21:06
Jamie Lima: Let's talk this through and and let them be more involved in my, my life, I think I would have done a better job.
21:12
Jamie Lima: Things would have went better.
21:14
Jamie Lima: All that stuff has been sorted out now.
21:18
Jamie Lima: You know cause it's been.
21:19
Jamie Lima: We're, we're seven years, you know after the fact, but, uh, but I see a lot of people do that and they, they, they think they're going to try to do it on their own and because they're, you know, for whatever reason, right it's, it's really vulnerable to say you know what, like, I need some help.
21:35
Erin Gray: Like I remember my dad telling me he's like Aaron, I know how you feel about medicine, but maybe it's time that you actually like go to a therapist and talk to somebody.
21:43
Erin Gray: And actually, you know, like that was 20 years ago, you know like, but still you know like maybe you might actually need a little bit of help.
21:50
Erin Gray: And it's okay, right, like I think we're changing as society and consciousness like it's okay to seek out help.
21:55
Erin Gray: It's okay to say you know what, I'm really sad, I, I, you know, I, I need help.
22:00
Erin Gray: Um, but like, yeah, like you say, it's like it's that vulnerability, it's our little egos that are like I've got this and all of that.
22:07
Erin Gray: And like you say, like it can alienate us, it can you know we can feel not supported, things of that sort.
22:13
Erin Gray: The other thing I wanted to comment and this is just a comment, not so much a question is like, well, let me back up.
22:19
Erin Gray: It may be a question of like, how many of you, how many you know?
22:31
Erin Gray: People come to you and they are like rushing to get divorced, and what I want to say to you, if this is you one of the things is we're rushing because we're going for a feeling Right.
22:34
Erin Gray: And so once I learned like we don't have to rush through anything, right, like the reason why we want it to hurry up and be over is because we're looking for, we're trying to get rid of a feeling that we're feeling, versus allowing those feelings to be there and also knowing like you can choose every single day, every single moment, you can choose how you want to feel.
22:54
Erin Gray: Versus okay, well, if you cause I wrote down this when you and I were talking before it's like get it over with mindset, right, like let's just hurry up and just get this over with.
23:02
Erin Gray: Versus how do I want to be when I'm going through my divorce?
23:05
Erin Gray: Like, so asking yourself some questions like how do I actually want to be, how do I want my kids to remember me being to their mom or to their dad, right, during this divorce?
23:14
Erin Gray: Because I have been around several people that have, you know, gotten divorces lately and it is almost like the children know right, like they sense the energy, they know what's going on, and so I'm just curious if you have a lot of people that are like, okay, let's hurry up, let's get this over with, so we can just be done with it versus really taking the time to not dragging it out.
23:36
Erin Gray: Right, but like the rushing is because it's coming for like what can I?
23:40
Erin Gray: I don't like the feeling that I'm in right now.
23:42
Erin Gray: You know we now.
23:44
Jamie Lima: We unfortunately have a few of those cases going on right now where I have to help them slow their roll, so to speak.
23:51
Erin Gray: Yeah.
23:54
Jamie Lima: Because with the work that we do, it takes time.
23:57
Jamie Lima: If you were to tell me that you wanted to start working with us today, it's probably going to be two weeks for us to gather the information we need from you, cause we'll send it.
24:08
Jamie Lima: We'll send a list like here are the 10 documents or the you know tax returns and statements and all that stuff.
24:13
Jamie Lima: We'll gather all that, start uploading that information to your client portal, the secure portal we use, and then we need time to be able to review it, put it into our financial planning software, make sure we haven't made any mistakes along the way.
24:25
Jamie Lima: We're documenting everything.
24:26
Jamie Lima: We're crafting what we call a summary of findings document, which is basically a running tab of all the things that we some red flags or things we're going to want to talk about through the whole process.
24:36
Jamie Lima: And if you do it the right way and you slow down, you take a beat and you follow the process, if you just follow the process, you're going to be in a much better situation than if you try to make hasty, hasty decisions just to get it.
24:55
Jamie Lima: And I was there.
24:55
Jamie Lima: I remember every time, every time my attorney would call and want me to pay another retainer.
25:00
Jamie Lima: I'm like can we just get this over with?
25:02
Jamie Lima: Yeah, right, but if you and that's even myself, I made some mistakes along the way by trying to speed up the process.
25:09
Jamie Lima: So so our job now is to help people slow down, take a beat, understand that there is a process and there's a method to the madness to help them get through this.
25:18
Jamie Lima: I've seen, I have a case right now where I, on Sunday, I'm sitting here watching golf on a Sunday and I get an email and a message that the, the settlement agreement has has been.
25:29
Jamie Lima: You know, the framework for the agreement is in place.
25:31
Jamie Lima: I look through this thing.
25:33
Jamie Lima: Well, first off, we just started this process.
25:36
Jamie Lima: So how do we have an agreement when we don't even know what we're agreeing to?
25:39
Jamie Lima: We have no idea what's out there, we have no idea that we don't have any appraisal on the home, we don't have any of the information we need to be able to make a sound financial decision financial decisions.
25:49
Jamie Lima: And then I also looked at the document and I sent her an email back with about 11 or 12 different things that were completely missed, overlooked, completely missing by the attorney and said, like you know, hey, I'm here to help you.
26:03
Jamie Lima: Here's here's, a laundry list of things that need to be addressed.
26:06
Jamie Lima: Are we doing this my way?
26:07
Jamie Lima: Are we doing this some other random way?
26:09
Jamie Lima: Because you're going to end up shooting yourself in the foot.
26:11
Erin Gray: Yeah, and I think that that goes back to here we go with emotions right, like when you are in that heightened state of emotions if you're feeling anger, like I look back and I'm like I wouldn't have made some of the decisions that I made.
26:22
Erin Gray: I was angry, right, like that was the what was driving the decision, not from an emotionally neutral place and allowing yourself time to grieve and to feel sad and to like, how often are we, our emotions are so heightened that that actually is what the decisions are run off of, versus allowing yourself some space, slowing down, feeling what needs to be felt, right, and then coming from, like, prefrontal cortex, like you know, like, okay, I can make some decisions here.
26:52
Erin Gray: Versus are you?
26:54
Erin Gray: It's like, are you responding or are you reacting?
26:56
Erin Gray: You know, and I guess you would be way better at this but, like, what I've seen is a lot of people are going through a divorce.
27:02
Erin Gray: It's very reactionary.
27:03
Erin Gray: And here we go back to like if you know that you can feel anything at any moment, then there's no need to rush through anything, because so, um, I'm curious from a business perspective, entrepreneurship, things of that sort because I have talked to people that want to get divorced.
27:22
Erin Gray: They own a business and it seems like fear also drives that decision of not, because they think like it's what you know, what is she going to take or what is you know, like you know for the business, and things of that sort.
27:33
Erin Gray: So to those that have a business that maybe are looking to get divorced, like what would you say to them?
27:40
Jamie Lima: or advice or things that you see that yeah, If you're not working with somebody like me, they're in the course of a divorce and you're a business owner, you're doing yourself a disservice.
27:51
Jamie Lima: Doing yourself a disservice Because, as a business owner myself, my wife and I actually run three businesses.
28:00
Jamie Lima: I run two financial planning businesses and then we run a little Airbnb ourselves.
28:03
Jamie Lima: So I understand the finances, the nuances of different entity types and the tax situations that go on, like things like retained earnings and how that factors into child support, alimony calculations and what counts, how to calculate some of those things and figure out, like, if I have $50, dollars worth of worth of retained earnings, does that count as income, does it not?
28:26
Jamie Lima: Why should it?
28:27
Jamie Lima: Why should it not?
28:28
Jamie Lima: I'm a firm believer that it should not count as retained, uh earnings, because if you take every dollar out of the business that you have, you're not going to have a business um over time, uh, so.
28:40
Jamie Lima: So there are little nuances like that.
28:42
Jamie Lima: You know, like the entity setup, the ownership, the ownership, the equity in the company, all the stuff, all the legal nuances of it, the taxes oh man, there's a million things to talk about there.
28:52
Jamie Lima: And then you know we have some small business owners that have things like ESOP plans, the employee stock ownership plans, things of that nature.
29:02
Jamie Lima: If you're going to try to figure that out on your own, how to divide, how to divide that up in a divorce where you can let your attorney do it yeah, really Good luck.
29:11
Erin Gray: Yeah, that's really good because it is.
29:13
Erin Gray: It's like and I've always looked at advisors of like I want to be the not smartest person in the room in regards to like, right, like, I want to surround myself with people that do this all day, every day, and they can give me different perspectives.
29:26
Erin Gray: Because here we go back to right Like, if you're coming from a heightened emotional state, you aren't going to be one, you may not even have the knowledge right To even ask the questions.
29:34
Erin Gray: And, two, you're not in that state to be like thinking clearly to be able to ask those questions.
29:39
Erin Gray: Um, I also wanted to talk about, uh, you mentioned about like women and men, and do you think that that comes back to?
29:49
Erin Gray: Because I would probably have to agree with you.
29:52
Erin Gray: I don't know if I would say that women are smarter.
29:54
Erin Gray: I just think that they are like what I just said right, like I want to be surrounded by people Like they drop the ego, basically Right, like they're just like I want what's best for me, what's best for my children, and they think about that kind of stuff, versus looking at it from the lens or perspective of someone's trying to tell me what to do, or you know, you know, they know more than me, and then it's it's affecting their ego.
30:20
Erin Gray: So what would you say to the men that are listening, that what you've seen and other than you know, like, like, keep an open mind and like.
30:29
Jamie Lima: What else would you say if, if you have any other advice, what we'd say to that I feel like you know you're, you hit the nail on the head with the ego piece Right and that's, and that's really, that's really what it comes down to.
30:39
Jamie Lima: You know I see I and I I say women are smarter and say no, the, the there's, it's the whole IQ, eq, mars, venus thing that goes on in finance.
30:55
Jamie Lima: And you know what?
30:58
Jamie Lima: What I tell men, I'm like you need to drop the financial beer muscles and and and recognize that.
31:03
Jamie Lima: Yeah Well, you know, like you ever hear the term beer muscles, right, Like you start, you know you have a couple of beers.
31:08
Jamie Lima: It's like the old term when we were kids.
31:10
Jamie Lima: You know you have a couple of beers.
31:11
Jamie Lima: And the next thing, you know, like you're the strongest man in the room and nobody better mess with you right, so your beer muscles right okay
31:17
Jamie Lima: if you and, uh, you know, if you have the financial beer muscles and you think you're got, you're mr tough guy when it comes to the finances because you got it all handled and you're the breadwinner and I have the 401k and I'm have the big fancy job at work and all this other stuff, you're missing the whole point of of not only the work we do, you're, you're totally missing out on what is going to happen to you in the court of law.
31:43
Jamie Lima: You're misunderstood, you're.
31:45
Jamie Lima: If the court system as it is right now is designed, was designed to prosecute criminals, we are now trying to sue each other to divorce and end our marriage through the same process.
32:04
Jamie Lima: It is very laborious, it is very expensive.
32:08
Jamie Lima: It normally doesn't go in men's favor, unfortunately, when and that's just that's just how it is right unfortunately it does not go in men's favor, unfortunately, and that's just how it is Unfortunately, it does not go in men's favor.
32:17
Jamie Lima: It is slowly changing.
32:18
Jamie Lima: There are a lot of states out there that are making it a lot more equal.
32:21
Jamie Lima: They're reducing the amount of alimony payments and the length of alimony and things of that nature.
32:25
Jamie Lima: They're telling women they need to get back on their feet and that's where, slowly, that whole dynamic is shifting.
32:31
Jamie Lima: We're not quite to the point where it's perfect just yet.
32:34
Jamie Lima: So the men that are out there, they're like, well, I'm gonna save the money because I'm probably gonna have to pay her more money.
32:41
Jamie Lima: I'm just, you know, I'm already paying my attorney.
32:43
Jamie Lima: They're, they're missing the whole point and and they're gonna I feel like they're going to look back and go shoulda, woulda, coulda, yeah, and you're making decisions today that are going to impact you for the rest of your life.
32:58
Erin Gray: Yeah, absolutely, and you brought up a really good point about it's just like what we talked about the attorneys right, Like, the attorneys stay in their lane.
33:05
Erin Gray: Right, Like don't bring it over to the financial planning.
33:08
Erin Gray: The same thing with the court system, right, Like you said.
33:11
Erin Gray: Like here we are doing criminal stuff and we're trying to infuse, like it's like what did they say?
33:17
Jamie Lima: Round, round, square peg and round hole or something like that Square peg round hole.
33:21
Jamie Lima: Huh, exactly, yep, and we're trying to.
33:23
Jamie Lima: When we have to get prepared for helping people go to court or we're in court ourselves, or and so on, you literally have to talk to the, you have to talk to the, you have to explain to these judges how some of this financial stuff works.
33:36
Jamie Lima: Like a five or a five-year-old yeah, yeah, because they, they, and I'm the first one to say I'm never going to be the smartest person in the room and if I step into a courtroom, I am definitely not the smartest person in that room.
33:47
Jamie Lima: But they don't.
33:50
Jamie Lima: They're not.
33:50
Jamie Lima: They don't understand this stuff.
33:51
Jamie Lima: They don't understand the taxes, they don't understand the retained earnings.
33:55
Jamie Lima: They don't understand the investments.
33:56
Jamie Lima: They don't understand what is the difference between a mutual fund and an ETF.
34:00
Jamie Lima: Yep, maybe they have experience with it?
34:04
Jamie Lima: Probably not.
34:04
Jamie Lima: Yeah, right, and it goes to your point earlier about whole staying.
34:13
Jamie Lima: You know each other staying in their own lanes.
34:15
Jamie Lima: Yeah, it's.
34:16
Jamie Lima: It's kind of like if you you don't go to the doctor and go, you know, and try to triage yourself and figure out who the best specialist is for you, whatever ailment you have, right, you go to your family law practice.
34:28
Jamie Lima: You go to your family practitioner, right, your mate, your primary physician, he's gonna, he or she's gonna do a once over on you, ask you some questions and go okay, here are the people that we need to talk to.
34:37
Jamie Lima: We need to go to a cardiac person or a cardiologist or a or a uh or whatever, whatever, whatever it is, yep, they're not.
34:47
Jamie Lima: But, and they're not going to try to do this, they're not going to try to diagnose you or do the work you know themselves.
34:52
Jamie Lima: They're there to help you triage and figure out where you need to go.
34:54
Jamie Lima: Next, they can do some of the work which is kind of kind of what we do, right, we triage people, we help them understand what the next steps are and help them through that process.
35:01
Jamie Lima: Get them the attorneys if necessary.
35:04
Jamie Lima: But you know, you know we can be the.
35:05
Jamie Lima: We can be the financial specialist, so to speak, on the team.
35:09
Erin Gray: Also too.
35:09
Erin Gray: I mean, I don't know if it's changed 20 years ago, but like we ended up actually going to court, right, like it's not fun to sit on the stand and to be grilled by.
35:15
Erin Gray: You know, like when you're in emotional distress, it doesn't feel very good to be grilled by the other attorney.
35:21
Erin Gray: And also, since it's a public thing, like anybody can walk in and sit down and listen to your court case.
35:26
Erin Gray: You know like, so just, those are even like things to be like, how can we do this in a private?
35:31
Erin Gray: You know, even if we don't have to be in the same room, right, when you mediate, right, you can go back and forth, but like how can we do this where it doesn't have to be?
35:38
Erin Gray: You know, you feel like you're like with the firing squad.
35:41
Erin Gray: You know like I remember the attorney asking me like going through line by line, like expenses.
35:45
Erin Gray: You know like, why haven't you done this?
35:47
Erin Gray: And I'm like I justice, like being accused of, why haven't I done X, y, z?
35:53
Erin Gray: You know what I mean.
35:53
Erin Gray: Um, and so, yeah, like it's such a like you're saying there's so many different ways which for you being with you and doing the mediation, and kind of knowing all of the ins and outs like that's what you.
36:06
Erin Gray: It would seem like that would make the most sense and feel the most loving and nourishing right To our situation and that Anything else.
36:16
Erin Gray: We talked about slowing down.
36:18
Erin Gray: I just am looking at my notes, not making any fast moves really being connected to ourselves.
36:22
Erin Gray: Anything else that you would comment or maybe I haven't asked questions about that we might've left off for people to consider- One of the first exercises we go through with everybody is we create what's called a my Priorities Worksheet.
36:36
Jamie Lima: It's called a my Priorities Worksheet.
36:38
Jamie Lima: It's available on our website for free and there's a whole bunch of resources on my website.
36:41
Jamie Lima: I'm sure you're going to link to it.
36:43
Erin Gray: Yep, I'll put everything in there for you.
36:44
Erin Gray: Go to.
36:44
Jamie Lima: AllegiantDScom and there's on the free resources tab.
36:47
Jamie Lima: There's a link to this worksheet.
36:48
Jamie Lima: There's a bunch of tax information and we don't do the first name, last name, email thing.
36:54
Jamie Lima: People can go to our website.
36:55
Jamie Lima: They can pull the information for free.
36:56
Jamie Lima: We have no idea they've been to the website.
36:59
Jamie Lima: We don't collect contact information or anything.
37:00
Jamie Lima: I love that it literally is for free.
37:02
Jamie Lima: On this my Priorities worksheet, what we look at are three main areas.
37:06
Jamie Lima: So we look at what my goals are and my priorities are relative to the kids, to the financials, and my priorities are relative to the kids, to the financials, and I'm drawing a blank on the third component of it.
37:18
Jamie Lima: But workplace plans, the house things of that nature, the assets section, and, as a CFP, as you know, one of the first things we do with our financial planning clients is get understanding what their goals are.
37:30
Jamie Lima: Why are they hiring us?
37:32
Jamie Lima: Are we helping them put a plan in place to retire early, buy a rental property, make sure investments are on track, all of those things?
37:39
Jamie Lima: What are the goals and objectives?
37:40
Jamie Lima: It's the same thing we do with our divorcing clients and the benefit of going through this exercise and really establishing what your priorities are, what your goals are through the engagement is twofold.
37:50
Jamie Lima: One, it becomes our true north.
37:54
Jamie Lima: As we're making decisions and just working through negotiations, we can say, okay, well, if you give up this thing, it's going to mess up this priority you have over here.
38:02
Jamie Lima: How do you want to handle that?
38:04
Jamie Lima: It also, secondarily, allows us to understand what the other side is thinking.
38:11
Jamie Lima: We want to know what does the spouse want to do with the kids?
38:15
Jamie Lima: Do they want to have 50-50 custody?
38:17
Jamie Lima: Do they want to?
38:18
Jamie Lima: I don't know?
38:19
Jamie Lima: Do they want to make sure they're in the best schools or pay for college?
38:23
Jamie Lima: What about the house?
38:25
Jamie Lima: What about the other assets they have?
38:26
Jamie Lima: What about this thing and that thing?
38:29
Jamie Lima: And the other reason why the benefit of doing that is that it's a little bit of a game of chess, right?
38:34
Jamie Lima: We want to understand what the other side is thinking and what their next move might be.
38:38
Jamie Lima: So when it does come down to negotiations and we're working through that we keep that top of mind as well.
38:43
Jamie Lima: So it helps us do two things really, and that document is available on our website.
38:50
Jamie Lima: People can download it, just if you're starting to think through this process and this is a path you think you're going to be going down.
38:56
Jamie Lima: Going through that 15 minute exercise could be incredibly beneficial.
39:02
Erin Gray: Yeah, it's like I always hear.
39:04
Erin Gray: It's like we don't know what, we don't know, right, Whether it goes to the CPA, it goes to the financial planner going through divorce, Like if you've never done it before, don't even know the questions to ask.
39:11
Erin Gray: I do want to ask one last question.
39:20
Jamie Lima: Do you find that when you work with clients, are they working with another CDFA or are they working with an attorney?
39:25
Jamie Lima: Usually an attorney, usually an attorney.
39:26
Jamie Lima: We don't find ourselves up against too many other CDFAs.
39:30
Jamie Lima: There are only 3,000 of us in the country and only 30% of CDFAs actually do the work.
39:35
Erin Gray: So like 900.
39:36
Erin Gray: So there's nine.
39:37
Jamie Lima: Basically, there's 900 of us across the country that are actually doing this work.
39:41
Erin Gray: How many divorces happen?
39:42
Jamie Lima: 30 million.
39:44
Erin Gray: A year.
39:45
Erin Gray: So 10%, right.
39:48
Erin Gray: I mean I don't know what the, I don't know what the population is now in America, but like I heard at one time, it was like 300 million, right, like.
39:53
Jamie Lima: So 10% what the population is now in America but I heard it one time it was like 300 million, right, so 10% of the population.
39:57
Jamie Lima: I was going to go through a first or second divorce in that year.
39:59
Erin Gray: Wow, that's incredible.
40:02
Jamie Lima: Yeah.
40:02
Erin Gray: So is it more so, do you think?
40:04
Erin Gray: Is it more so, like, just more letters behind your name?
40:07
Erin Gray: It's more like a designation thing.
40:12
Erin Gray: If you only have a third practicing, is it a designation thing?
40:14
Erin Gray: I know, I'm not.
40:15
Erin Gray: I know I'm asking you to speculate, like what are these people thinking?
40:17
Erin Gray: But like that to me means like I think, like, oh, they just want more more letters behind their name, but like you're not actually practicing and doing the thing you know.
40:25
Jamie Lima: I think it's.
40:25
Jamie Lima: It's twofold.
40:26
Jamie Lima: One, you get into the work and you realize, wow, this is actually really stressful because there's a lot of emotion, it's time consuming because you have to be spot on with the information that you're presenting to the courts and the attorneys.
40:38
Jamie Lima: You've got to take a lot of time.
40:41
Jamie Lima: So there's that component of it.
40:43
Jamie Lima: It's a little bit stressful.
40:45
Jamie Lima: And secondly, I think a lot of these CDFA is that our advisors with big name firms like Fidelity Investments, charles Schwab, ubs.
40:56
Jamie Lima: We went to the IDFA conference, which is our big conference, annual conference, last two weeks ago, and about half the people in the room that were CDFAs did not even do the work because they were there for the education but they couldn't do the work because the companies that they work for wouldn't allow them to do it.
41:11
Jamie Lima: Wow, so they wanted the education that way, if they do have clients that are that are going through the process, they can certainly support them and give them, you know, some some solid advice.
41:20
Jamie Lima: But they can't.
41:21
Jamie Lima: They're not going to be showing up to do expert testimony, they're not mediating cases, they're not doing all the calculations, they don't even have access to the software we have access to, they just have the it's.
41:30
Jamie Lima: It's more of a information education situation for them than anything.
41:35
Jamie Lima: Yeah.
41:36
Erin Gray: Yeah, more like.
41:41
Erin Gray: Okay, this is where I know to like and maybe it's a, it's a community right, like they meet people that are actually practicing so they know where to send to, but it's not necessarily a like.
41:46
Erin Gray: Yeah, anything else you want to add before we send off?
41:51
Jamie Lima: Yeah, no, I think we covered a lot.
41:54
Erin Gray: There's, like I said, there's there's a bunch of free resources on the website People can can reach out, share that and I'll put it in there, but say that again your website, and then I'll also put all of that in the show notes so that they can go to the website.
42:08
Jamie Lima: Yeah, it's, it's Allegiant divorce solutions, allegiant dscom.
42:10
Jamie Lima: We'll, we'll make sure the link is there and you know, if you're.
42:15
Jamie Lima: The last thing I would say is, if you're contemplating it, if you don't know what direction you know, book some time with us.
42:21
Jamie Lima: We, the calls are complimentary.
42:22
Jamie Lima: Yeah right, there's no requirement.
42:25
Jamie Lima: You just have to show up to the appointment.
42:26
Jamie Lima: Don't block out time for somebody else that can need it.
42:28
Jamie Lima: If you're just going to kick the tires and not take it seriously.
42:31
Jamie Lima: If you're serious about getting the help from us or someone else and this is something that's on the radar for you that you really want the assistance with, go to the website.
42:39
Jamie Lima: Literally on the homepage there is a link to our calendar.
42:41
Jamie Lima: You can book a time with myself and, you know, another CDFA on my team If there's, if I'm not available and we'll just walk you through.
42:48
Jamie Lima: You know we'll learn more about your situation, get an understanding of where we might be able to support you, answer any questions you have and then send you on your way and hopefully in the right direction.
42:56
Jamie Lima: So there's no obligation, there's no costs.
42:58
Jamie Lima: We're not going to spam you every day and text message every day we don't do that kind of stuff.
43:03
Jamie Lima: You'll be on our newsletter.
43:04
Jamie Lima: You can unsubscribe if you want to be unsubscribed.
43:06
Jamie Lima: It's not a big deal, it won't hurt our feelings.
43:08
Jamie Lima: But biggest thing is again, just don't do it if you block the time for somebody else, if you're not going to take it seriously, because we have people kicking the tires every once in a while and it takes away from existing clients and our opportunity to talk to people like you and support folks like you as well.
43:26
Jamie Lima: So I'm only one person and our time is limited.
43:29
Jamie Lima: So if you're going to do it, make sure you take it seriously.
43:32
Erin Gray: I love that.
43:33
Erin Gray: Jamie, thank you for sharing all of your knowledge, like I really appreciate it.
43:36
Erin Gray: Such a fun conversation and each of you.
43:39
Erin Gray: Thank you for listening and watching and until next time.
43:42
Erin Gray: One of the things that we forgot to mention while we were recording that I wanted to come back and elaborate on is that Jamie said that most of his cases only take five to 10 hours worth of work.
43:52
Erin Gray: So he does take a retainer of $3,000 upfront, and so I just wanted to put that knowledge in here, because I'm like five to 10 hours, like that's hardly anything.
44:03
Erin Gray: So I just wanted to give that information and then I'm going to put all of his information in the show notes and, as always, thank you for listening, for sharing your time with us, and if you have any questions, you can definitely reach out to Jamie.
44:15
Erin Gray: I'll put all of his information in the show notes.