Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Convicted murder mastermind says it's not FAIR after teen lover trigger-man and accomplices gain early release from prison. Will PAMELA SMART's legal wrangling set her free? Part 2.

Transcript

Convicted murder mastermind says it's not FAIR after teen lover trigger-man and accomplices gain early release from prison. Will PAMELA SMART's legal wrangling set her free? Part 2. · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Yea Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I drove up to
0:11
Speaker 1: the house, and I went into the garage, and I
0:16
Speaker 1: went up to the house, and I noticed that the
0:19
Speaker 1: outside lights weren't on, and I remember thinking that that
0:22
Speaker 1: was odd because Greg usually left him on when he
0:26
Speaker 1: knew that I was going to be late. But you know,
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Speaker 1: I didn't think it was anything major. I just remember
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Speaker 1: thinking it was odd. I walked up the steps and
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Speaker 1: I put the key in the door, and when I
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Speaker 1: pushed the door open, I turned on the light and
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Speaker 1: I saw Greg. Well, it all happened in a matter
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Speaker 1: of like not even a second, I don't think, and
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Speaker 1: I remember seeing things near him, like a candlestick and
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Speaker 1: a pillow, and can I remember I thought. The first
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Speaker 1: thing I thought was to go get help. And I said,
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Speaker 1: I said Greg, Greg's name, and he didn't didn't answer,
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Speaker 1: and I ran out. It all happened really fast. Pam
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Speaker 1: Smart is in the thick of it, trying her best
1:18
Speaker 1: to get out of jail. I Meanancy Grace, this is
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Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. But how
1:25
Speaker 1: did it all start? Eighteen year old Pam Wojus was
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Speaker 1: a freshman in college who loved a party and she
1:33
Speaker 1: was instantly drawn to Greg Smart. She sat next to
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Speaker 1: him down on the couch and started flirting with him
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Speaker 1: and twirling his hair with his rocker haircut and boy's smile.
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Speaker 1: Twenty year old Greg was just Pam's type. Greg was
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Speaker 1: a great guy and if somebody said, hey, let's go
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Speaker 1: away for the weekend and it was Friday night, he
1:51
Speaker 1: would go. He always lived like that. Greg was also
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Speaker 1: known as a ladies man. Greg was seeing, as usual
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Speaker 1: a bunch of other girls. A lot of the girls
2:00
Speaker 1: seemed to flock to him, But soon after Greg met Pam,
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Speaker 1: he began to change his ways and settle down. Over time,
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Speaker 1: it's slowly got more serious and more serious. Pam was
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Speaker 1: very excited about her relationship with Greg. She used to
2:15
Speaker 1: write poems and she sent me a lot of them.
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Speaker 1: When Greg surprised Pam with an engagement ring in January
2:23
Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty eight, she accepted. And that is how
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Speaker 1: it all started at a party when she was just
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Speaker 1: eighteen years old. How did it all end? In murder?
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Speaker 1: And what's happening right now? Joining me an all star
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Speaker 1: panel to break it down and put it back together again?
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Speaker 1: Doctor Daniel Bober Forensics psychiatrists joining us all the way
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Speaker 1: from Rome. Doctor Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner, author of
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Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Joseph Scott Morgan forensics expert, Professor
2:55
Speaker 1: Forensics Jacksonville State University, an author of Blood Beneath My
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Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon. Ashley Willcott, judge, trial lawyer and anchor
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Speaker 1: at Ashley Wilcott dot Com. Right now to Crime online
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Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Dave Matt. Dave, explain to me
3:12
Speaker 1: when Pama Smart gets home, what does she find in
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Speaker 1: her home? She finds her husband of less than one
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Speaker 1: year on the ground and the apartment apparently in disarray.
3:24
Speaker 1: He's on the ground what appears to be a gunshot
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Speaker 1: wound to the head. Police suddenly have three suspects in
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Speaker 1: the murder, seventeen year old j R. Lattimy and his
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Speaker 1: friends sixteen year old Pete Randolph and sixteen year old
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Speaker 1: Billy Flynn. They're kind of a rough group of kids.
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Speaker 1: They had been involved in some minor crimes, but petty
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Speaker 1: crime is one thing. Could they really have committed a murder?
3:51
Speaker 1: It doesn't take long for detectives to identify a possible
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Speaker 1: link between the three boys and Grant Smart his wife Pam.
4:01
Speaker 1: The teenagers are students at Win, a kind of high
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Speaker 1: school where Pamela Smart works. Two of the boys are
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Speaker 1: students in her media course. They were making a video together.
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Speaker 1: Pam Smart was the coordinator. The kids are the talent.
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Speaker 1: Two of the high school students are in her class.
4:20
Speaker 1: That's a connection. You're hearing our friends at Real Crime,
4:23
Speaker 1: Real Story with Aaron Brockovich. So they're all kids, they're
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Speaker 1: all teams in Flynn. The sixteen year old reportedly was
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Speaker 1: more than just a student. She sat me down in
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Speaker 1: a chair. And what did you say? She said, I
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Speaker 1: think I'm in love with Bill? And what did you
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Speaker 1: say to that? I laughed? Was ridiculous? How ridiculous? Why
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Speaker 1: would ridiculous? Because she was married? She was twenty two?
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Speaker 1: What did he do when you laugh? She just kept
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Speaker 1: telling me over and over again, I'm serious. So what
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Speaker 1: happened after that? I'm about a week Lana? She told, Now,
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Speaker 1: do you have any part I'm talking to Bill about this?
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Speaker 1: I told Bill Pam wanted to see him, and you
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Speaker 1: said about a week later? She told Bill audio was
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Speaker 1: a week later? I'm how positive? That's when she she
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Speaker 1: told me that she told him about a week law.
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Speaker 1: You are hearing who I believe to be the star
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Speaker 1: witness in the case, Cecilia Pierce, Now Pam's Smart, the
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Speaker 1: teacher in her twenties, takes this teen girl under her wing,
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Speaker 1: so to speak. But then when she said you could
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Speaker 1: eat a divorce with Joe Gregor, thank you serious? I
5:43
Speaker 1: thought that she was serious, but that she wouldn't do it.
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Speaker 1: I have it done. And how much? How often were
5:50
Speaker 1: you having these conversations with the defendant at this time?
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Speaker 1: At first I was just saying every few days and
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Speaker 1: then it was every day. And what kind of things
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Speaker 1: would you be talking about? What was going on so far?
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Speaker 1: Like what they had discussed last period her and Bill
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Speaker 1: had discussed, and what they had decided upon, things like
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Speaker 1: to where they had tied back and twere dot clothes
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Speaker 1: and to make it look like a burglary. Wow, that's
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Speaker 1: getting very, very involved, an intricate planning, going so far
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Speaker 1: as to what they would wear, what to do with
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Speaker 1: their hair when the incident, the murder would take place.
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Speaker 1: To Dave Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, what
6:42
Speaker 1: really links Pamela Smart to her husband Gregg's murder? Well,
6:47
Speaker 1: actually the police with Celia Pears, they actually wired her up.
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Speaker 1: She agreed to help the police because she just couldn't
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Speaker 1: stand this anymore. And actually Pam Smart gave her own
6:59
Speaker 1: incriminating statement. They picked it up on the wire where
7:03
Speaker 1: she actually said, if you tell the police what you know,
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Speaker 1: we're all going to be locked in the slammer. Tell me,
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Speaker 1: Dave Mack what happens At trial with all the other
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Speaker 1: co conspirators, the boyfriend, his friends, the prosecution cut deals
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Speaker 1: with just about with everybody except Pam Smart. At trial,
7:22
Speaker 1: Billy Flynn testified, as did Patrick Randall, Jarl a lot
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Speaker 1: of me. They all testified as to their specific roles
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Speaker 1: in this crime, and they all had deals negotiated with
7:33
Speaker 1: the prosecution because ultimately, the prosecution determined early on, if
7:37
Speaker 1: not for Pam Smart orchestrating all of this, it would
7:40
Speaker 1: not have happened. She's even admitted as much that it
7:43
Speaker 1: was her relationship with Billy that cost Gregg's life. It's
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Speaker 1: just a matter of what the police have indicated they've
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Speaker 1: built their case around, is that she was the instigator
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Speaker 1: of everything. And at trial, Billy Flynn was an incredibly
7:57
Speaker 1: credible witness. He cried on the stand. I'll never forget
8:01
Speaker 1: actually seeing him. When the prosecutor said what was What
8:04
Speaker 1: did you say? And he said, right before I shot him,
8:07
Speaker 1: I pointed the gun at his head and I said, God,
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Speaker 1: please forgive me, and it pulled the trigger. So Billy
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Speaker 1: Flynn admits to what happened. Take a listener. The man
8:18
Speaker 1: who spent decades in prison for his role in the
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Speaker 1: sex and murder scandal that rocked it in the Hampshire
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Speaker 1: community is now a freeman. All of this unfolding in
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Speaker 1: the overnight hours. Billy Flynn was just sixteen years old
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Speaker 1: when he and a friend killed his high school teacher's husband.
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Speaker 1: He was granted parole in March. A rather bizarre scene
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Speaker 1: overnight at the prison where Flynn spent the last twenty
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Speaker 1: five years of his life. What you heard was other
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Speaker 1: inmates cheering as a convicted killer left by the back door.
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Speaker 1: At his parole hearing, Flynn apologized to the family of
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Speaker 1: Greg's smart. He says he hopes to find a job
8:54
Speaker 1: after earning his degree while in prison, but he knows
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Speaker 1: that will be difficult. Pam's Art was convicted of helping
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Speaker 1: Flynn and another teenager planned the killing of her husband
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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety. She is serving life in prison without
9:07
Speaker 1: the chance of parole. Patrick Randall, the other team who
9:10
Speaker 1: participated in the killing, is also scheduled for release. Today
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Pam Smart is trying her
9:35
Speaker 1: best to get out of jail. I Meancy Grace, this
9:40
Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Let
9:42
Speaker 1: me ask you this. Dave Matt Billy fan Lay's prison.
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Speaker 1: He's the trigger person. He admitted to what he did.
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Speaker 1: What did the co conspirator do? What was his part?
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Speaker 1: What did the others do? Not? Pam Smart? Patrick Randall
9:58
Speaker 1: was sentenced to the same thing as Billy Flynn. He
10:01
Speaker 1: was right there inside the home with Billy Flynn when
10:05
Speaker 1: it took place, when the shooting occurred, and he got
10:08
Speaker 1: the same type of treatment that Billy Flynn got. Now,
10:13
Speaker 1: they did have a co conspirator who was the getaway driver.
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Speaker 1: His name was Vance Vladimy. He was sentenced to life
10:19
Speaker 1: in prison as an accomplice and he was let out
10:21
Speaker 1: of jail several years ago. He wasn't sentenced to the
10:25
Speaker 1: same thing. They did have one of the co conspirator
10:27
Speaker 1: that was Raymond Fowler. He actually just waited in the car. Okay,
10:31
Speaker 1: he was there with him. Again, two boys went inside,
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Speaker 1: Billy and Patrick Vance, and Raymond stayed in the car,
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Speaker 1: but they were all part of this conspiracy. Raymond Fowler
10:41
Speaker 1: was charged with conspiracy and attempted burglary and he was
10:44
Speaker 1: sentenced to prison as well, but he was also released
10:48
Speaker 1: back many years ago. So while we hear the boyfriend
10:52
Speaker 1: as we call him, admitting that he said God forgive
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Speaker 1: me and then pulls a trigger, he admits that what
10:59
Speaker 1: about Pam Smart Dave Mack? Has she ever admitted she
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Speaker 1: was part of the conspiracy to kill her husband? No?
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Speaker 1: You know, the only thing she's even come close to
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Speaker 1: admitting in terms of guilt is she actually and this
11:13
Speaker 1: is a real problem, She's never admitted her role. She's
11:17
Speaker 1: never admitted what they proved in court beyond the shadow
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Speaker 1: of a doubt. Her only comment, and this is what
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Speaker 1: she says by and this is a Greg quote. Although
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Speaker 1: I never wanted nor asked mister Flynn to murder Greg,
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Speaker 1: I will forever carry the blame and guilt. And that's
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Speaker 1: the one statement from her that has a you know,
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Speaker 1: where she claims that, yeah, she's guilty, but not for
11:38
Speaker 1: asking him to do it. She's guilty because she had
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Speaker 1: a relationship with Billy Flynn. As a matter of fact,
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Speaker 1: listen to Pam Smart and day after day after game
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Speaker 1: megativity and unchunced about me and tying the heart. I
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Speaker 1: think that I'm not a defense mechanis down and I
12:02
Speaker 1: believed part of that is because I come from a
12:04
Speaker 1: family there he learned to deal with whatever problems happened
12:09
Speaker 1: by just remaining strong and standing strong and not being
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Speaker 1: like weak and willows, so to speak, over whatever happened.
12:18
Speaker 1: I'm more of a private person what I deal with
12:21
Speaker 1: my own pain, on my own emotion. So for me
12:25
Speaker 1: to be only twenty two years old, it tends to
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Speaker 1: be twenty four at the time and have what I
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Speaker 1: thought was my whole future with him just completely obliterated
12:37
Speaker 1: and having to deal at such a young age with
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Speaker 1: funeral and weight, and then the fact that Bill Sin
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Speaker 1: was arrested and I had relationship to care and then
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Speaker 1: finding out that it looked like he did it or
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Speaker 1: his friends did it, and then I was arrested. It
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Speaker 1: was just like one thing after another after another, And
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Speaker 1: I think part of my being able to completely shut out. Okay,
13:07
Speaker 1: so it's all about her to doctor Daniel Bober, forensic
13:12
Speaker 1: psychiatrists joining us. Even now, it's still all about how
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Speaker 1: this affected her life, how her future was quote obliterated.
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Speaker 1: Not once. Do you hear her talk about the victim, Greg,
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Speaker 1: of course yes, because she's a malignant narcissist. All she
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Speaker 1: cares about is herself, her fame, her recognition. That's what
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Speaker 1: it was about all the time, and that's what it's
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Speaker 1: about now. Okay, it's not just that. Listen to this
13:37
Speaker 1: Pam Smart in her own words, not anything. But the
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Speaker 1: journy was doing reading a transcript but I don't even
13:47
Speaker 1: know her how transcribe from their boat, and I was
13:55
Speaker 1: to hear pieces of it and I was reading their compensation.
13:59
Speaker 1: But the page, I was noticing that there were things
14:02
Speaker 1: that were attributed to me, that it was actually are
14:06
Speaker 1: talking for things that were atticted to her, and it
14:09
Speaker 1: was actually me talking because I've voice have sounded similar
14:13
Speaker 1: on me because they were so horriful. And after what
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Speaker 1: happened too, is that when you have a conversation, even
14:19
Speaker 1: like the one I'm having with you right now, they're
14:21
Speaker 1: interjesting in my conversation saying right, yes, that's when we
14:27
Speaker 1: do when we have conversation. Right on the paper, she's saying, oh,
14:33
Speaker 1: so you want a great dead, and then I say yeah,
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Speaker 1: But that's that's not how the conversation was going. It
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Speaker 1: wasn't a response to necessarily whatever you just say. It
14:46
Speaker 1: was just the natural course of listening to a person
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Speaker 1: and saying yeah, okay. I don't think I would even
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Speaker 1: say yeah, okay if someone mentioned I want my husband dead,
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Speaker 1: which of course I don't, not until I renew that
15:01
Speaker 1: life insurance policy. But aside from that, what a bunch
15:05
Speaker 1: of bs. All this time later, she's still attacking the
15:11
Speaker 1: transcript and so you know what that means. That means
15:16
Speaker 1: that that is what convicted her. That's what she's angry about.
15:19
Speaker 1: To doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrists. All this time later,
15:23
Speaker 1: she's still talking about the transcripts of the taped conversation
15:29
Speaker 1: she was having with Cecilia Pierce about how it was wrong.
15:33
Speaker 1: Does she not remember the jury heard it for themselves,
15:36
Speaker 1: they were reading it, and not only that, Cecilia Pierce
15:40
Speaker 1: testified and said what they talked about and what happened
15:45
Speaker 1: then the tapes came into evidence. So what does that mean?
15:50
Speaker 1: Doctor Bober she's still that's string over the tapes, and
15:55
Speaker 1: she's still not admitting that she orchestrated her husband's murder. Well,
16:00
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think she feels obviously betrayed,
16:04
Speaker 1: but you know, it's sort of one of those what
16:05
Speaker 1: about is M's like, well, yeah, you're saying I did this,
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Speaker 1: but what about this? This is what this person did
16:10
Speaker 1: to me. So again, it's all about her, and that's
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Speaker 1: the focus. All about her. Okay, let me understand to
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Speaker 1: Dave Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Dave, what's
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Speaker 1: happening now, because you've told me that Billy Flynn, the boyfriend, triggerman,
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Speaker 1: he's out. The others, they're all out except for her.
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Speaker 1: She has routinely requested many different things over the years,
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Speaker 1: but her final and last request that she could actually make,
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Speaker 1: and this is what's being discussed now, is the fact
16:43
Speaker 1: that she wants her sentence to be shortened. That's what
16:48
Speaker 1: they did. In the case of Billy and and Patrick,
16:51
Speaker 1: they actually were able to get their sentence changed by
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Speaker 1: a couple of years so they could actually be released
16:58
Speaker 1: on bail on par all Rather, in the case of Smart,
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Speaker 1: she wants the same type of compassionate release, if you
17:05
Speaker 1: want to call it that. They're asking for a reduction
17:08
Speaker 1: in her sentence so that she can actually be eligible
17:11
Speaker 1: for parole, which she is not right now. But the
17:14
Speaker 1: others to ask you, Willcott, judge and trial lawyer have
17:18
Speaker 1: all confessed, they said their part. So how do you
17:23
Speaker 1: give parole to someone that never acknowledges what they did?
17:28
Speaker 1: I think that's the big hold up for her. Oh,
17:30
Speaker 1: I agree with you, because they don't. Right. One of
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Speaker 1: the questions that's asked that every parole hearing is do
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Speaker 1: you admit, acknowledge, take responsibility for the crime you've been
17:40
Speaker 1: convicted of? And if the answers no, well guess what
17:43
Speaker 1: you're not going to get is parole. And she continues
17:47
Speaker 1: to claim she was not involved. I mean, hasn't anybody's
17:52
Speaker 1: seen Oceans eleven? I mean, that's the first thing George
17:55
Speaker 1: Clooney does. He sits down to the parole hearing and
17:58
Speaker 1: lies to his teeth about how he admits guilt and
18:02
Speaker 1: he's never going to do it again. He's changed his ways,
18:05
Speaker 1: and he gets out and he robs the casino. Okay,
18:09
Speaker 1: So that's how the Pardner parole board works. You have
18:12
Speaker 1: to acknowledge what happened before you can. It's kind of
18:17
Speaker 1: like a Catharsis and start over, or at least that's
18:19
Speaker 1: what they expect before they give you parole. Bam, Do
18:23
Speaker 1: you agree or disagree? Ashley? I agree. That's exactly right,
18:26
Speaker 1: and that is universal. That is true in every state
18:29
Speaker 1: in the nation. That is not unique. That is how
18:33
Speaker 1: it works. Crime stories with Nancy Grace So the trigger
18:53
Speaker 1: man Flynn to sixteen at the time of the murder,
18:57
Speaker 1: tells police along with the others, that it was all
19:00
Speaker 1: smarts idea. She orchestrated the entire plot. She left the
19:03
Speaker 1: entrance to her apartment open for them to surprise her husband.
19:07
Speaker 1: They held a knife to his face, shot him, and
19:11
Speaker 1: then they try to stage a burglary. Smart herself says
19:15
Speaker 1: she started a sex affair with the boy in revenge
19:19
Speaker 1: because her husband had a one night stand. That's neither
19:22
Speaker 1: here nor there, but right now, Pam Smart wants out
19:26
Speaker 1: of jail. She's been behind bars for thirty years for
19:29
Speaker 1: conspiring to kill her husband. Greg So, I don't understand
19:33
Speaker 1: what is the new trend, the new trend of second looks.
19:39
Speaker 1: What is that? Dave Mack, It's the opportunity for somebody
19:42
Speaker 1: who's been convicted of a crime to seek a hearing
19:47
Speaker 1: to basically reiterate what this person wasn't really involved in
19:51
Speaker 1: her case. She didn't pull the trigger, she wasn't at
19:54
Speaker 1: the scene, and she was an involved bystander, is what
19:58
Speaker 1: they're trying to argue. And it's using that she refers
20:01
Speaker 1: to it as ancillary. Aciliary, Yeah, ancillary to the crime,
20:06
Speaker 1: meaning you know what like a getaway driver can have
20:09
Speaker 1: there if they've been convicted of a murder, you know,
20:11
Speaker 1: they can actually appeal and get a hearing to have
20:13
Speaker 1: their sentence reduced because they didn't actually pull the trigger.
20:16
Speaker 1: They were merely driving the car. And that's that was
20:19
Speaker 1: actually the argument used by by Pam Smart in of
20:23
Speaker 1: last several years. That's what she's been pushing for because
20:26
Speaker 1: she was sentenced to life, but if they can get
20:28
Speaker 1: a reduction in sentence that would make her eligible for parole.
20:31
Speaker 1: That's exactly what Billy Friend did, by the way, he
20:33
Speaker 1: got that reduction at a hearing and he was out
20:36
Speaker 1: on parole and he admitted he did it an expressed
20:38
Speaker 1: remorse to Ashley Wilcott. What is the second look trend?
20:43
Speaker 1: It look it is, like you already pointed out, Nancy,
20:46
Speaker 1: that does exist in a couple of states. It's legislation
20:49
Speaker 1: and what it is. And there is a Second Look
20:51
Speaker 1: Amendment Act of twenty nineteen, and in that it establishes
20:56
Speaker 1: what's called a Board of Indeterminate Sentence in Parole and
21:00
Speaker 1: it's to determine including things like individuals who committed an
21:05
Speaker 1: offense before age twenty five in the existing sentence modification process.
21:10
Speaker 1: So what does that mean in plain English? It means
21:12
Speaker 1: that they would give a second look to those individuals
21:14
Speaker 1: who committed offense before age twenty five, and it may
21:17
Speaker 1: change some of the rules we've been talking about. Let
21:19
Speaker 1: me ask you this, after all these years, doctor Daniel Bober.
21:23
Speaker 1: The victim's family lives through the trial, lives through the crime,
21:26
Speaker 1: all the pain after that, how do you think they're
21:28
Speaker 1: feeling about second looks? Well, I mean, listen, I mean
21:32
Speaker 1: it's a very emotionally charged situation, Nancy. But this sort
21:35
Speaker 1: of second look business kind of I think is in
21:38
Speaker 1: the same vein of Roper v. Simmon in the case
21:40
Speaker 1: about you know, not executing people under eighteen and recognizing
21:43
Speaker 1: that certain people, because of their age, may not have
21:45
Speaker 1: the same degree of culpability as people who are older.
21:48
Speaker 1: So I understand where it's coming from. But if you're
21:50
Speaker 1: the family of a victim, you're not going to be
21:52
Speaker 1: very understanding of that argument. Joseph Scott Morgan to yet
21:57
Speaker 1: Pardner parole. You have to demonstrate change behavior. What has
22:03
Speaker 1: her history been like behind ours? It's not been good, Nancy.
22:06
Speaker 1: She's been in multiple altercations, multiple violations. You know, she's
22:10
Speaker 1: not even in New Hampshire any longer. In the women's
22:13
Speaker 1: state prison there. They had to transfer her to the
22:16
Speaker 1: New York State facility because she had snitched out two
22:21
Speaker 1: women in the prison that we're involved in a relationship,
22:24
Speaker 1: and she got beaten up pretty badly as a result
22:26
Speaker 1: of that. She's got a history of being rather noncompliant,
22:32
Speaker 1: non cooperative with the jail staff. Why do you think
22:35
Speaker 1: that is. Is it something to do with authority? You know,
22:37
Speaker 1: I don't know, Nancy, but it would seem that she
22:41
Speaker 1: acts particularly snitching out these two women that are just
22:44
Speaker 1: engaged in a relationship there in prison. It would seem
22:48
Speaker 1: that she feels like she knows better than everybody else.
22:51
Speaker 1: She just cannot abide by the rules. And I think
22:54
Speaker 1: that this is a thread that might run through this
22:56
Speaker 1: woman's life, and it wasn't just about love. She refutes
23:01
Speaker 1: the boyfriend's claims, made a trial, but they all say
23:07
Speaker 1: she paid him and his friends five hundred dollars each
23:12
Speaker 1: to kill her husband and make it look like a burglary,
23:15
Speaker 1: including her leaving the door on the locks who they
23:18
Speaker 1: could get in. What about that, Dave Matt, You hardly
23:22
Speaker 1: ever hear about the fact that she allegedly paid them
23:25
Speaker 1: to commit murder. If I'm not mistaken, Nancy, she volunteered
23:29
Speaker 1: to pay them that out of one hundred and forty
23:31
Speaker 1: thousand dollars in insurance money she was going to get
23:34
Speaker 1: from the death of Greg Smart. So you had that
23:36
Speaker 1: money motive into his murder as well, you know, in
23:38
Speaker 1: my mind to you asked she will caught that as
23:40
Speaker 1: a whole nother leer to this, that she actually offered
23:44
Speaker 1: to pay money out of her dead husband's life insurance proceeds.
23:48
Speaker 1: That's pretty cold blood, very cold blood, And all of
23:51
Speaker 1: these things together add up to prove, in my mind,
23:55
Speaker 1: and a jury found this beyond a reasonable doubt, that look,
23:58
Speaker 1: there was a motive that she wanted to kill him.
24:01
Speaker 1: She'd only been married a year. She wanted the money.
24:04
Speaker 1: She had the means by hiring juveniles, don't forget that,
24:09
Speaker 1: and hiring one of them to actually pull the trigger.
24:13
Speaker 1: This evidence. You know, sometimes you hear about cases in
24:15
Speaker 1: the news and the evidence sounds like wow, circumstantial, a
24:19
Speaker 1: jury convicted. But maybe this isn't the right or enough evidence.
24:23
Speaker 1: This is not one of those cases. In my mind,
24:25
Speaker 1: I think with the amount of evidence they have against her,
24:28
Speaker 1: the motive of the money from the life insurance policy,
24:31
Speaker 1: from having him killed, I think it seals the deal.
24:34
Speaker 1: Pama Smart speaking out now amidst a brand new legal
24:39
Speaker 1: bid to have her life sentence reduced, saying she fears
24:43
Speaker 1: dying of old age behind bars. While her husband was
24:48
Speaker 1: murdered in his early twenties. As a matter of fact,
24:52
Speaker 1: he was restrained by Pete Randall while Billy Flynn, her lover,
24:57
Speaker 1: shot him in the head. Now they were both free
25:00
Speaker 1: at the same time. The accomplices Vance Vladimy Junior and
25:04
Speaker 1: Raymond Fowler also walked from jail early. But this has
25:09
Speaker 1: somehow turned into some sort of a feminist argument, claiming
25:15
Speaker 1: in some way that the guys got out, but she,
25:18
Speaker 1: the woman, is still behind Bars, I don't see it
25:22
Speaker 1: that way at all. I see it as she is
25:25
Speaker 1: the only one refusing to admit guilt and show any
25:29
Speaker 1: remorse over her part in her husband's murder. That has
25:33
Speaker 1: been the point of contention throughout all the appeals. So
25:37
Speaker 1: have you ever seen anybody like that, Joe Scott in
25:39
Speaker 1: all the cases you've handled and processed for someone I
25:43
Speaker 1: compared to Scott Peterson, he would rather go down for
25:47
Speaker 1: a life without parole than take a plea and admit
25:50
Speaker 1: he did it. Yeah, at the end, Nancy, I think
25:52
Speaker 1: that it all comes down to this personality and their
25:55
Speaker 1: perception of reality. And you know what's really sad about
25:59
Speaker 1: this is Greg Smart. He's a person that kind of
26:02
Speaker 1: gets diminished in all of this that, like so many
26:05
Speaker 1: of these cases, they're they're collateral damage in these people's
26:09
Speaker 1: mind where they're just thrown away like a piece of
26:11
Speaker 1: garbage and they don't care. The same with Lacy and
26:14
Speaker 1: that baby. It's the same thing over and over and
26:18
Speaker 1: over again. Doctor Bober speaks right to the heart of it.
26:21
Speaker 1: In this particular case we're talking about. You know, this
26:24
Speaker 1: narcissistic personality disorder that these people have, and they are
26:27
Speaker 1: just so bitten by this thing that they cannot see
26:31
Speaker 1: the forest for the trees. As a matter of fact,
26:33
Speaker 1: in a recent and very defiant interview, she says, quote,
26:36
Speaker 1: I want the world to know that my incarceration is unjust.
26:40
Speaker 1: My trial was unfair, and I am being held in
26:43
Speaker 1: prison for a crime I did not commit. Okay, you
26:47
Speaker 1: know what she's saying behind mars. Anybody have a thought
26:50
Speaker 1: on that, bober. Do you really believe they're going to
26:53
Speaker 1: let her out if she's still not a manty guilt.
26:56
Speaker 1: It's so funny, the languages. It's like this mythic struggle,
27:00
Speaker 1: and she's been unjustly convicted. You know, she's almost making
27:04
Speaker 1: it like a reality TV show right from her jail cell.
27:07
Speaker 1: And I don't think she has any chance of getting out.
27:09
Speaker 1: I agree, you know what, Admit responsibility and move on.
27:14
Speaker 1: That ain't happening. And it's all because Pam Smart still
27:19
Speaker 1: refuses to admit what happened the night her husband was murdered.
27:24
Speaker 1: Dave Mack the New Hampshire Executive Council. It is a
27:28
Speaker 1: state council made up of five members. The vote was
27:30
Speaker 1: for zero because one person abstained from voting. Let me
27:35
Speaker 1: understand how this works, because not every state has it
27:38
Speaker 1: there you have to in New Hampshire, you have to
27:41
Speaker 1: go to this council. They decide whether you get a
27:45
Speaker 1: second chance hearing. And even with one thousand pages of documents,
27:52
Speaker 1: not once does she admit guilt. And that was the
27:55
Speaker 1: big problem Nancy. This was her last chance to get
27:58
Speaker 1: this state council to of her that second look hearing.
28:02
Speaker 1: And in that where everything's on the line. You know
28:05
Speaker 1: you used the Danny Ocean reference where he sits there,
28:07
Speaker 1: smiles and tells him exactly what they want to hear
28:09
Speaker 1: so he can get out and go. Robert Casino, Yeah,
28:11
Speaker 1: I totally believe him, and I even knew what was
28:13
Speaker 1: going to happen in the case. She could not do it.
28:16
Speaker 1: She is so stuck on herself. She couldn't bring herself
28:20
Speaker 1: to do the one thing that would have guaranteed her
28:22
Speaker 1: that hearing. If she says, you know what, I was
28:24
Speaker 1: involved with this kid, and I did I shouldn't have
28:26
Speaker 1: done it. I feel horrible about it. Greg should be alive.
28:28
Speaker 1: But you know I concocted this whole thing. If she
28:31
Speaker 1: did that, she would have got the hearing, and she
28:32
Speaker 1: would have got out and you know another thing. Dave
28:35
Speaker 1: Mack Andrew Valinski, the one that abstained, stated that this
28:40
Speaker 1: vote for to zero ensured she would never get a hearing,
28:43
Speaker 1: But you know, Ashley willcot under our system. Never say never.
28:48
Speaker 1: Charles Manson died of old age, Okay and ailments behind bars.
28:55
Speaker 1: At the time of his trial. Everybody thought he would
28:57
Speaker 1: get the death penalty. You never know what's going to happen.
29:00
Speaker 1: But I would predict that Pam Smart will get another
29:03
Speaker 1: hearing of some sort. I don't know whether it will
29:05
Speaker 1: be granted or not, but I think she will get
29:07
Speaker 1: another hearing. And I think it's important for everyone in
29:09
Speaker 1: the listeners to remember Nancy that laws change, New laws
29:13
Speaker 1: come on the books for different reasons, and there could
29:15
Speaker 1: be a new law at any point in time in
29:17
Speaker 1: New Hampshire that is one under which she can seek
29:20
Speaker 1: recourse and could be released. So I absolutely agree with you,
29:23
Speaker 1: especially in our criminal justice system. Never say never. We
29:27
Speaker 1: just don't know. In a recent jailhouse interview, Pam Smart
29:30
Speaker 1: calls the rejection of her parole hearing completely unfair. She
29:36
Speaker 1: believes it's unfair that she stays behind mars while the
29:39
Speaker 1: trigger man has been set free. Now catch this. This
29:43
Speaker 1: is some interesting wording, she says, quote, it took me
29:46
Speaker 1: years of working on myself in therapy, growth and maturity
29:51
Speaker 1: to accept fault. And her fault is the only fault
29:54
Speaker 1: that she accepts is that as the media coordinator at
29:58
Speaker 1: a high school in Hnton, Hampshire, she started a sex
30:01
Speaker 1: relationship with Billy Flynn, a student. That's it. She in
30:06
Speaker 1: no way accepts fault. To doctor Daniel Bober, she would
30:10
Speaker 1: have to admit she did this and accept fault to
30:13
Speaker 1: hope for parole. Why won't she do it? Well, I
30:17
Speaker 1: think she has to maintain her innocence all the way,
30:20
Speaker 1: and I think her ego issued so huge that I
30:23
Speaker 1: don't think it will allow her to admit that she's
30:25
Speaker 1: responsible for the crime, even though all the evidence points
30:28
Speaker 1: that way and she was convicted. Well, right now, Pam
30:32
Speaker 1: Smart sits behind bars, refusing to acknowledge her part in
30:36
Speaker 1: a brutal murder. But I guarantee you we ain't seen
30:40
Speaker 1: the last of her yet. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
31:05
Speaker 1: I have been a felony prosecutor in inner city Atlanta
31:08
Speaker 1: for over a decade. I have been a journalist over
31:12
Speaker 1: twenty years. I've handled and covered literally thousands of cases.
31:19
Speaker 1: Of all of those cases, the injustice of some just
31:25
Speaker 1: stick with me. Wrongful accusations. I don't know these sentences
31:31
Speaker 1: that don't fit the crime, victims cries for help ignored.
31:36
Speaker 1: Many cases may have been resolved in courts, but not
31:41
Speaker 1: resolved in my mind. Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, and
31:46
Speaker 1: before I say another word about our upcoming series Injustice
31:50
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace on Oxygen, listen to this. With every
31:54
Speaker 1: minute that passes, you're losing the chance of finding the
31:59
Speaker 1: person much less alive. They're out there all night, all
32:03
Speaker 1: Lake Seminole, a law enforcement they're thinking, how could he
32:08
Speaker 1: survive through the night? Not a trace? Everything runs through
32:13
Speaker 1: your head everything. Could he have been the victim of
32:16
Speaker 1: a burglary? I mean, we didn't really know what had
32:19
Speaker 1: happened to Mike. So if he wasn't in the lake,
32:22
Speaker 1: where could he be? Oh that horrible, horrible feeling trying
32:25
Speaker 1: to figure out what happened. You're hearing Mike's friend Clay
32:28
Speaker 1: catch him. A young dad, a husband, a loving husband,
32:33
Speaker 1: I might add, says he's going out duck hunting and
32:36
Speaker 1: he never comes home. I've been to Lake Seminole, many,
32:40
Speaker 1: many times, dark, dark waters. If you look out on it,
32:45
Speaker 1: it's very eerie looking. Even in the daytime when you
32:49
Speaker 1: drive by, you'll look out and it's vast. You can't
32:52
Speaker 1: even see the other side to it at some points,
32:55
Speaker 1: and the water looks black even in the daytime. And
32:58
Speaker 1: what makes it so eerie look to me stumps, dark
33:02
Speaker 1: stumps jutting out of the water, and they're sharp. They're
33:07
Speaker 1: sharp on the edges like spikes in there throughout Lake Semnole.
33:12
Speaker 1: I don't know how anybody boats on it or fishes
33:15
Speaker 1: on it or hunts on it with all those stumps,
33:17
Speaker 1: and what's under the water is scarier. They're gators there,
33:22
Speaker 1: for real gaiters. So how this is a sportsman's paradise,
33:28
Speaker 1: I really don't know. But I do know that this
33:31
Speaker 1: young dad, Mike Williams, goes out duck hunting he loved hunting.
33:36
Speaker 1: Early early on a morning. He promises to come back
33:40
Speaker 1: because very important, it's his anniversary. He and his wife
33:45
Speaker 1: already have one baby girl named Annesley, Love Love, Love Annesley.
33:50
Speaker 1: They want to add to their family. And that evening,
33:54
Speaker 1: after he gets back from duck hunting, and she does
33:56
Speaker 1: what she has to do that day, they're heading for
33:59
Speaker 1: an anniversary celebration at a bed and breakfast and they're
34:03
Speaker 1: going to start on a baby. Okay, I can't really
34:07
Speaker 1: think a happier time, So I'm circling back to what
34:11
Speaker 1: Mike's friend Clay Catchum said. They have no idea. Every
34:16
Speaker 1: theory running through family's head, his wife's head. What could
34:21
Speaker 1: have happened to him, had there been some attack, had
34:24
Speaker 1: there been a burglary of some sort they didn't know about.
34:27
Speaker 1: They're trying to figure out because they don't find his body,
34:31
Speaker 1: They can't find any evidence of a struggle, nothing. It's
34:34
Speaker 1: like he disappears off the face of the earth. Days, weeks,
34:40
Speaker 1: and months go by, and suddenly the case goes cold.
34:44
Speaker 1: The wife is struggling financially to support the house and
34:49
Speaker 1: the daughter all on her own, keep it all going,
34:52
Speaker 1: all the balls in the air, and they say the
34:55
Speaker 1: case goes cold. Cold cases are tough because you continually
34:58
Speaker 1: have your regular workload and then you've got this case
35:01
Speaker 1: over here that you continue to look at, but you
35:04
Speaker 1: know it's a cold case. So there's times when there's
35:07
Speaker 1: nothing going on. It's just sitting there and you're waiting
35:10
Speaker 1: for flair you're hearing our friend Telly Sparkman, investigator in
35:14
Speaker 1: the State's Attorney's office there in Leon County, Florida. And
35:18
Speaker 1: it's not that the cops are the investigators don't want
35:21
Speaker 1: to solve the case. They want to I've been in
35:23
Speaker 1: the same boat they're in. You know, you get a
35:26
Speaker 1: one hundred new cases a week, Brandy felonies to investigate,
35:31
Speaker 1: and you'll work to solve them. You work to take
35:34
Speaker 1: them to trial, to investigate them. Then there are the
35:37
Speaker 1: ones that stump you. You don't want to ignore them,
35:40
Speaker 1: you don't want them to go cold, but they're just
35:43
Speaker 1: not fitting together. They started requestioning everyone, nailing down alibis
35:50
Speaker 1: yet again, trying to get a better timeline of what
35:53
Speaker 1: happened that early early morning December sixteen, when Mike Williams
35:58
Speaker 1: seemingly vanished off the face of the earth. They went
36:00
Speaker 1: to everybody, They went to friends, they went to bosses,
36:05
Speaker 1: they spoke to Denise. They did it all, and they
36:08
Speaker 1: did it over and over and over again, and still
36:11
Speaker 1: nothing until evidence seemingly resurfaces that offers a crack in
36:18
Speaker 1: the case. But was it. This is a case that
36:23
Speaker 1: needs a spotlight. This case stands for so much the
36:29
Speaker 1: injustice heaped on Mike Williams and his family. I can't
36:35
Speaker 1: get it out of my mind. Join us July twenty
36:38
Speaker 1: six five Central Injustice with Nancy Grace on Oxygen, The
36:43
Speaker 1: True Network for Crime. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,