Latest / Azadeh and Guy on AI / The Right to Forget

Transcript

The Right to Forget · Azadeh and Guy on AI

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hi and welcome to episode 5 of Azadeh and Guy on AI.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're talking about data sovereignty.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we didn't introduce ourselves.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Azadeh.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Guy.
• 0:19
  I'm a professor of innovative learning technologies here at the
• 0:23
  University of Nebraska-Lincoln.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: First year PhD student,
• 0:26
  a specialization in innovative learning technologies and
• 0:30
  obviously University of
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Nebraska-Lincoln.
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  And I have to admit that we both are kind of in love with the
• 0:35
  word sovereignty.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, reminds me of a pastry.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm not commenting on that,
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  but I'm on my way to the annual meeting of the Association of
• 0:48
  American Colleges of
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Teacher Education,
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: AACTE,
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  SPEAKER_00: and we're going to talk about AI.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: And my job is to talk just a little bit about data sovereignty.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Whose is it?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Who can consent to using it?
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  SPEAKER_00: Who owns it?
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  SPEAKER_00: What really do we do with all of that data and for what purpose?
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  SPEAKER_01: And especially considering the role of AI,
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  SPEAKER_01: right now,
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  SPEAKER_01: many different kinds of data are being generated.
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  We are feeding data with a lot of inputs and we are sharing our
• 1:22
  personal information with AI.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's reopening something that we've thought a lot about.
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  So historically,
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  I haven't thought a lot about data sovereignty,
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  although I'm aware of that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And two sources kind of fed into that.
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  SPEAKER_00: One is the...
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  SPEAKER_00: a few years ago at the site conference, which we're going to.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you're coming to Philadelphia, can say hi.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: In March, we will be there.
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  SPEAKER_01: We...
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  I went to a session that was held by our colleagues from the
• 2:01
  University of Eastern
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  SPEAKER_00: Finland,
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  and they talked about giving data sovereignty to their
• 2:07
  elementary students when
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  they were talking about the digital traces that learning with
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  lots of digital
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  SPEAKER_00: platforms actually leaves behind.
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  SPEAKER_00: The second one was actually...
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  A discussion with an indigenous researcher who was talking
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  about the conversations
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  SPEAKER_00: within the indigenous communities,
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  SPEAKER_00: the First Nations,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially of the Americas,
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  SPEAKER_00: about whether they should share their data with the AI researchers.
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  SPEAKER_00: platforms or withhold that data.
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  And one of the things that I've been thinking about is who owns
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  that data?
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  SPEAKER_00: Again, the First Nations on that data.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that decision is not mine.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not the AI company's.
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  It's the First Nations who have held that information
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  throughout all of these years.
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  And I know that there are actually significant discussions
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  because there's also
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  SPEAKER_00: power in participating in this.
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  SPEAKER_00: But you're also giving up your control over that knowledge.
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  And so,
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  again,
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  not my discussion to have,
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  but it is a very interesting discussion.
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  And again,
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  it goes back to that notion of who owns this,
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  who has the right to consent to this.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the AI company, and this is maybe...
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  SPEAKER_00: why you talked about this.
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  SPEAKER_00: The AI companies didn't ask any of us to use any of our data.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah.
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  And we all knew that our internet companies and especially
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  Google knows everything about us.
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  SPEAKER_01: Everything, yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: They are listening to us.
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  Every search query,
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  every time you asked,
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  what is this thing sticking out of my leg?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Or something like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Google learns that about us.
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  And we would like to believe that because the room was dark
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  when we asked that
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  SPEAKER_00: question,
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  SPEAKER_00: nobody knows.
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  SPEAKER_00: But the truth is Google knows.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we know what other things are ailing us in 101 ways.
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  SPEAKER_00: So now the AI companies know too.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, very true.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not, I mean, it is funny and it's not.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is kind of scary, terrifying.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: The vast amounts of data.
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  SPEAKER_01: I know.
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  That they have about us and about the public in general is
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  quite outstanding.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they took all of this data and turned it into AI.
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  And AI is an opportunity to think about this because suddenly
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  we're sharing even more.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  So you also talked about Finnish scholars and how they use data
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  sovereignty with
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  SPEAKER_01: elementary students.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
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  SPEAKER_00: So really,
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  SPEAKER_00: their point was that if we want to teach kids about data sovereignty,
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  SPEAKER_00: we have to give them the power.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not just to pretend to give them a power,
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  SPEAKER_00: not just talk to them about it,
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  SPEAKER_00: but instead giving them the tools to control,
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  SPEAKER_00: in this case,
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  SPEAKER_00: their digital traces.
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  SPEAKER_00: And say,
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  SPEAKER_00: you can choose what you want to share with your parents,
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  SPEAKER_00: what you want to share with your teacher.
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  There are,
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  of course,
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  things that the teachers want to see as a final product.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the process documents on the way.
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  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can choose which of your papers you're showing your parents.
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  SPEAKER_00: Which one are you most proud of?
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are a few things here.
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  SPEAKER_00: One is I own this data and therefore I can choose what I want to share.
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  SPEAKER_00: We do that with exhibitions of learning.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very true.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it also forces students to evaluate the work and say,
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  which one I'm most proud of instead of the default that most of
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  us are choosing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that is, sure, put cookies wherever you want.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sure, track me wherever I go, even when I'm not using your app.
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  Sure,
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  I'm going to sign on the bottom as if I read the end users,
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  all of those details.
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  SPEAKER_01: Most of the time, there are no options.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have to, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: You either do that or you don't download.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's no third option, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And so making kids aware early of the options,
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  SPEAKER_00: having these discussions,
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  SPEAKER_00: and even if they choose not to share.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: just as a point of discussion,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's really,
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  really important because we're protecting privacy because as
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  these kids grow into
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  SPEAKER_00: the world,
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  SPEAKER_00: and this is discussed often by lots of people that are posting online,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is kind of funny.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they're saying, I'm so happy that when I was young,
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  SPEAKER_00: There was no Facebook.
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  SPEAKER_00: There was no video of every stupid thing I ever did.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I can remember it or choose not to remember it.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to face it every day.
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  SPEAKER_00: Nobody can find it.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just in my memory and the memory of five people who were there.
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  SPEAKER_00: And even they don't remember,
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  SPEAKER_00: as I'm getting older,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the benefits is people forget.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  I don't know if they remember who I am,
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  but they definitely forgot what happened in third grade.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so that right to forget people, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm not surprised that Finland did this.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think they have a few things working in their favor.
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  One is the European Union has a lot more thinking and a lot
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  more legislation.
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  SPEAKER_01: Legislations, yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: About...
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  SPEAKER_00: Data privacy, again, the right to forget exists.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you can connect to all of these platforms and say,
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  SPEAKER_00: I need my name scrubbed from everywhere you have.
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  SPEAKER_00: That ability to not accept cookies, all of those things do exist there.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's obviously in the water,
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  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
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  SPEAKER_00: in the academic water,
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  SPEAKER_00: in the discussion for the public.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the second thing is,
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  I think that because the Finnish school system seems to be
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  doing fairly well,
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  it's easier for them to not leverage it because often in our
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  education system,
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  people are thinking about this as how can we improve education
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  with all of this
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  SPEAKER_00: data?
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  SPEAKER_00: And the question has to be, will kids benefit?
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  SPEAKER_00: Do we, as the people who operate the platform, own that data?
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  Can we ask them every day,
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  every week,
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  once a year,
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  if they want to share data or not?
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  SPEAKER_00: What are the repercussions?
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  SPEAKER_01: That's important.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's really important from that perspective.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's also important from a community perspective.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we talked about the indigenous communities of First Nations.
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  SPEAKER_00: We can talk about rural communities.
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  SPEAKER_00: They may have very different expectations.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's worth the discussion.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
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  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so the word we love, sovereignty.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the food that comes with it.
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  But it is something that we need to talk about more and we
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  don't do enough of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: So here we talked about it today.
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  SPEAKER_00: How are you thinking about sovereignty, though?
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's important,
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  and especially the point that you made about teaching kids from
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  elementary school
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  about their right to just not share all of the data that they
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  are producing.
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  SPEAKER_01: That thing is important.
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  It gives them a kind of awareness that they can carry into
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  their adulthood and then
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  SPEAKER_01: make informed decisions when they are faced with those questions.
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  SPEAKER_01: on different web platforms and currently AI platforms.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think after a while,
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  AI companies may want to consider this when they introduce
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  their product for the
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  SPEAKER_01: first time.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right now they have something, but yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's be honest.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  If legislators do not force them to introduce this,
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  it's easier for them not to do it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
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  SPEAKER_01: Very true.
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  SPEAKER_00: They are data hungry.
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  SPEAKER_01: They live on those.
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  SPEAKER_00: They live on those things.
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  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to pay for the data.
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  I mean,
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  one of the conversations about who owns the data is also who
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  gets paid for the data.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, with Google, for years, Google said, you're getting things for free.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're getting to search for free.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're not paying for it.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're making a lot of money.
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  SPEAKER_01: But...
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  SPEAKER_00: We're not paying for it.
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  We're not paying for our regular Google accounts,
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  email and docs and all of this.
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  Beyond a certain point,
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  you're paying for the joy of storage,
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  but that's fine.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: But in the case of AI, we are paying for it in multiple ways.
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  SPEAKER_00: School systems,
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  SPEAKER_00: individuals,
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  SPEAKER_00: right now there are free versions,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they are not anywhere close to the paid versions in quality.
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  So the questions of sovereignty would be resolved only if
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  countries,
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  legislators,
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  International organizations start setting criteria and start
• 11:01
  asking for it and
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  SPEAKER_00: saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: you cannot operate in a region if you don't adhere to these rules.
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  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's, you know, it both feels...
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  SPEAKER_00: I have to be honest.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: As I'm saying this, I'm feeling a little bit uncomfortable.
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  SPEAKER_00: Why am I feeling uncomfortable?
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  I'm feeling uncomfortable because at the one hand,
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  I want governments to be able to say this.
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  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, what we've seen governments say so far to AI.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: is not necessarily good.
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  So we're seeing authoritative regimes use AI and the criteria
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  around AI to say to
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  SPEAKER_00: the companies,
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  SPEAKER_00: you can use AI,
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  SPEAKER_00: but only if it doesn't do these certain things.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's been a problem in China for a long time.
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  The Chinese government said,
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  if you want to play here,
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  you've got to do certain things.
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  SPEAKER_00: And certain companies stayed out of that market.
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  SPEAKER_00: And others said, yes, we will play by your rules.
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  and that's oppressive the u.s government just recently i might
• 12:01
  get in trouble for
• 12:02
  this but the u.s government just in the last week has had a
• 12:06
  discussion because
• 12:07
  anthropic with claude which i love have said we are not willing
• 12:14
  for the government
• 12:14
  to use it for any offensive military use and i'm and our
• 12:19
  secretary of war said we
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: may have to ask
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: All of the people working with the Department of Defense,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: he would like to call it Department of War,
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: I will stick with Defense.
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  But we will not work with Anthropic and kind of taking some
• 12:36
  punishment against that company.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's not the kind of regulation I want.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So do I want regulation?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: I want regulation that is enfranchising and supporting people, not...
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  SPEAKER_00: Going the other way and saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: hey,
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  we need AI that can do military things or we need to force them
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  to censor free
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  speech because there are some things we would like our citizens
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  to never discuss
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  SPEAKER_00: again.
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  So those are the things on my mind as we think about what is
• 13:04
  happening in that domain.
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  SPEAKER_00: So sovereignty, yes.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Regulation, yes.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: but not restriction that is anti-democratic.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's a hard line to walk.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  it's easy for me to sit here in this beautiful studio in a
• 13:19
  lovely afternoon and
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  SPEAKER_00: say,
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  SPEAKER_00: here's how we should go.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little more complicated, but you have to do something.
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  SPEAKER_01: You have to do something.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, definitely.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: I talked too much today, but this is what there is.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to talk about it at the conference.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it was an opportunity for me to practice.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you knew you're in New Orleans in the next few days, come and say hi.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Send a message through Substack or through my email or whatever it is,
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: and we'll see you.
• 13:45
  And if not,
• 13:46
  the site conference at the end of March in Philadelphia,
• 13:50
  we're going to be there.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll do a broadcast from Philadelphia.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we are going to.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we are going to do that.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 14:00
  Thank you,
• 14:00
  everyone,
• 14:01
  for listening to us,
• 14:02
  for listening to this episode of Azadeh and Guy on AI.