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24 | Living with Hidden Grief: Season 1 Finale – Naming the Unseen Losses · The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity

• Cassandra, LMHC: Hello friends, I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: And I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra, LMHC: And as licensed mental health counselors, we're unpacking the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Loss Podcast. We are so glad you're joining our conversation as we name these losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Please subscribe and share this episode with a friend. It helps us grow this community and reach others who need to know that their grief is valid. Let's dive in. ⁓ Cassandra, LMHC: We talk about quiet losses on this show. And today we're looking at the season we have currently coming to a close, which is kind of a loss in and of itself. It's a little bittersweet, you know? But it has been an amazing experience and has given us the opportunity to explore the various themes we've recognized throughout the show, including, but not limited to identity loss, disenfranchised grief, safety and grief, and even ambiguous loss. Daiana, LMHC: And we've also had a lot of learning behind the scenes from learning how to set all of this stuff up, learning how to edit. Cassandra, LMHC: Learning how to make sure that the lighting is correct so I don't look like Casper, which is a really difficult thing to do apparently. Well, who knew? Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Learning how to set things up so you're not looking at my eyelids that apparently, you know, really offended my husband. Cassandra, LMHC: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ And learning more so how to hold space in this capacity. Like that's been something that I found really interesting ⁓ and different from what we do on a daily basis, from what we do for a living. Learning to hold space in this ⁓ way we are able to ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: ask the questions that we want to ask and know the things that we want to know and find out what we want to find out. And even unexpected things happening like this season we've had many guests reach out to us that wanted to talk to us as opposed to us searching out for them. That that was something that I did not expect at all. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, that has been a beautiful surprise. And what stands out to ⁓ people who've reached out to us is our angle on grief, that we're not talking about the obvious ⁓ of a person, which as a society, we've talked about how we just suck at supporting each other and acknowledging it and ⁓ a lot of times within ourselves too, to know what we need when we're in this period of grief. But to acknowledge what is unseen, the hidden parts. even behind more behind the scenes is between and I, how we have, we're really close, ⁓ and this has given us a completely different experience of about what are your strengths, what are my strengths, what are what are our challenges. ⁓ communicating in a different way. Cassandra, LMHC: And even learning to trust each other in a different level. Like, there in the beginning potential for a lot of insecurity. A lot of like, ⁓ I hope you don't mind that I did this. ⁓ I I hope you understand why I did that. ⁓ coming to terms with the fact that we both had the same goal and we both want the same thing really strengthened relationship in a lot of ways, I think. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. It definitely did. You're so right about that. so loving towards each other and like so maybe considerate that we're like, is this okay with you? Like, are you good with that? We all we're always checking in. ⁓ And this have has been a lifeline for me in so many ways. when it to our partnership as well, when you mentioned safety grief. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: For me to have this unexpected loss and and for you to show up for me the way you have. Not only in in keeping this podcast going, because you know how important it is to me, but as a friend. Cassandra, LMHC: ⁓ you hit me in the feelings. We don't need to do that today. Come on now. That wasn't nice. Daiana, LMHC: Listen, if we don't cry, we're not doing it right. No, but seriously, we a lot admiration for each other on a different level because the way you showed up to do interviews, like these are things we we talk about behind the scenes. We're not interviewers, right? This is not something that we do, it's different than therapy. Cassandra, LMHC: Ha ha ha. Daiana, LMHC: And we and you showed up and interviewed people ⁓ one we kind of knew ⁓ from college, but then the other two we didn't. There are people who he we either re we reach out to them or they reach out to us. These are ⁓ it's so out of our comfort zone. Cassandra, LMHC: But been so fantastic and so much fun. Like the the conversations we have tend to be a little bit on the heavy side sometimes, which is so it sounds strange to say that I'm having a good time doing this, but I'm legitimately having a good time doing this. The connections that we've made, the people that we've met, the support that we've shown each other has just been astronomical. Even the the one day that I I just couldn't make it, I had a pet emergency. You stepped in and you understood that there was something that needed to be taken care of. I think Adam really would have appreciated the the level of sincerity that you you expressed when you were discussing with me just how my dog is doing ⁓ all the different things that were going along with that and the amount of understanding you had when I was like, I gotta go. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And I really appreciated that. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. ⁓ thinking about Adam and our guests, ⁓ that's incredible. Right. But like him, ⁓ Adam ⁓ came ⁓ our to talk about pet loss ⁓ and the grief, which is grief that is just not acknowledged and if anything, it's kind of frowned upon to grieve it. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: you could be you can feel shame over over it or have these feelings that just end up being hidden because you don't want to be too much or you don't want to seem weird. Adam is a perfect perfect example of this hidden grief and how most or maybe all of our guests turn their grief into a mission, a purpose, creating meaning around it, whether it's Starting a foundation, writing a book, or being there for other people who've gone through the same things, through the same experience. ⁓ Melissa comes to mind how she became an advocate for women that have gone ⁓ really ⁓ abusive Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I'm thinking of Shruti too, who made changed her her career in life and now supports other women who have had infertility grief along with the loss of pregnancies. She lived with that pain for so long that she doesn't want anyone else to have to live with it too. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Thinking about our first interview with Ileana and she talked about feeling left out and needing that that feeling of wanting to belong. She didn't start a foundation or write a book, but she works in HR. And because of her own journey and her own healing, the way she approaches people and wanting them to feel like they're part of this. the the business and the the community that they're building, the feeling that she wants to provide, that's a completely different way of approaching like how you live out these experiences that may have been or were really hurtful and and were maybe dark times, but to turn it into something beautiful. Cassandra, LMHC: That connects for me up to Vanessa, who she did start a foundation, she shared with us a lot of really deep heartfelt scenarios where she felt so different in every single way that you could think of. She didn't feel like she fit or belonged anywhere. And so she made her ⁓ ⁓ She made her own identity. She made her own world ⁓ she fit the way she wanted to. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. The loss, the hearing loss community is also a community that we don't hear about. no pun intended. ⁓ also ⁓ we've had therapists that have come on as an expert, like Brianna. she talked about eating disorders. And again, not from the perspective that is obvious, is the perspective of how ⁓ do experience if I don't have an eating disorder. Who am I without it? Cassandra, LMHC: And that causes a lot of identity loss we have these things that we think define us and we come to find out that they don't. Joel wrote a whole book about that. He wrote a book about essentially ⁓ major disorder. But the underlying message of that is who am I and ⁓ what this world like without this? Like how do I function in this society, learning to accept this part of myself? But not letting it define me. And we can become so easily defined by these labels that the world gives us, that we give ourselves, by these ideas that we become ensnared by. And so when we need to start to look at releasing that, there's a complete identity shift that goes along with that. And there's a lot of grief that belongs along with that identity shift. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That brought me back to that interview with Joel and how brought up that feeling ⁓ almost like, am I worth, am I worth being here if going ⁓ or if living with this mental health, you know, challenge and for some people, the a diagnosis, am I worth it? Am I enough? Am I good enough? And that's also part of our ⁓ identity. We also had Suyapa, who is a therapist, but she came on to talk about of another experience that we don't hear about. It's being the sibling of, you know, a a person with a disability. that something that we don't really hear about. I know I I've seen it in my own family when you have a sibling that has a more obvious ⁓ Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: greater need whether it's physical or is emotional, how does that feel for the other sibling? And I learned a lot from her too about the what was it, the glass, the glass child. That was a a concept that I wasn't so familiar with. So we have also learned so much through our through the interviews that we've had. Cassandra, LMHC: The glass child. Absolutely. And had the author on Suzie who talked about her role as a caregiver. And it it's ⁓ but not dissimilar to what Sayaba talked about because ⁓ this expectation ⁓ you just do the thing. And you're not allowed to feel any kind of way about it. You're not really allowed to talk it because ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: I was thinking about her just now. Cassandra, LMHC: Who wants to know about how much this is a struggle for you? So it almost becomes sort of like a glass child kind of scenario where you're there but you're not seen. Things are expected but you're not validated. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. It does. I thought about I thought about Suzie as well. And I love this chain reaction of of these things that we're recalling because this is how they're all connected, right? ⁓ what came up for me now, as you just mentioned, Suzie, and ⁓ and how we ⁓ these losses and how we experience them ourselves that very complex family estrangement Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. It's another one that we don't talk about. It's another one we don't think about. And that covers the topic of not just disenfranchised grief, which has to stay quiet or does stay quiet and people don't recognize the hidden grief, but it's also that ambiguous loss Because these people still exist. These people are still alive and well in the world doing whatever it is that they're doing. They just don't do it with you anymore. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Right. And in completely different capacities. Cause Suzie had her husband with Alzheimer's and she lost a version of her husband that she fell in love with that would finish her sentences he was still alive. And she mentioned in that interview how it felt almost wrong to talk about him in past tense because he was still living there. Right. ⁓ Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And with Lee is all you know, these family members are alive. She doesn't know where she fits in or if she fits in the of all those relationships of people who are alive. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: The dynamics. Yep. Of people who are alive, but we no longer have connection with. And then there's the idea of who we thought we were in relation to these people. then we met Bridget, who thought about who we were in relation to ourselves. She talked to length about alopecia and what it meant to her to ⁓ have it ⁓ what she thought it was gonna be like initially, and the identity shift that had to come for her while she was learning to accept this loss that she never asked for. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that was a beautiful example of the that hidden grief, of camouflaging, of masking, of hiding. And then there were our episodes that it was you and I. And at the beginning, talk about behind the scenes. We thought that was going to be most over the show. We thought that it was going to sprinkle in here and there an interview or two. ⁓ mean, I'm not great with math, but let me think. ⁓ has it been like almost actually more interviews than solo? Cassandra, LMHC: Absolutely we did. So we have had 24 episodes. This will be our 24th episode. Subtract like 13, so that's 11 of just us. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we've had more interviews than than us. Yeah. Which is completely unexpected. That's not what we thought was gonna happen. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I know that moving forward you were hoping to have a little bit more us doing one on ones in season two. And at the same time, I really love the voices that we've heard from, like the stories and the ideas and the changes and the growth that we've seen these people walk us through. I ⁓ been an honor to be part of these stories, and it's also been an honor to share our own. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely. I always love as know, this is why I couldn't do this by myself. I'm like, I can't talk to myself. I love having these conversations. And I ⁓ for you and I, ⁓ the episodes we got a lot of good feedback from, I think is like our people, like the the elder millennials ⁓ when we talked like collective grief. And the things that we have experiences of the losses in this massive way throughout our lives, throughout these decades, and how we kind of feel united in it because we went through these together. I think that when we're talking about like in our generation, those were episodes that we had a lot of really good feedback on. Cassandra, LMHC: And the episodes that we've talked about everyday things like parenting or certain sort of grief that comes around holidays or ⁓ the grief of doing things like ⁓ visiting but knowing that it's not home anymore. We've had phenomenal feedback from things like that just because it's so relatable. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Even w with ⁓ Christine, like she talked about parenting and we kind of blended that into even our conversations because that is so present. We're parents. Like we're going through this in real time. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. And it's interesting because when we first started, I was a little bit nervous that we weren't gonna have people to interview, that it was gonna be a scramble, or we would just keep happening to tap in our friends. And I had someone ask me how we still find new content. How is it possible that we still have things to talk about? Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: And it's because every story is so different, everyone's experience is so different. There's always something that we can talk about. I love the idea that reach out to us with ideas. We've had that happen a few times as well, that people are looking to us to help them kind of process what it's going through by ⁓ the experiences that we've had as well. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, yeah, talking about that ⁓ what we want see in season two are more of those conversations highlighting the thing is that a person can come and and speak on their story of living with alopecia and have a completely different perspective. Cassandra, LMHC: Absolutely, everyone has their own take on on these hidden griefs and these underlying losses that aren't brought to the surface, that nobody sees. And to give someone the opportunity to talk about that. And we agreed early on that we need to be ⁓ the degree of which people have healed ⁓ we discuss certain topics. And I think the people who have reached out are people who have worked through a large majority of the loss or are still working through it, but also ⁓ on it with like almost a hindsight. And ⁓ been remarkable to witness is the amount of growth because ⁓ the flow a lot of the times comes from ⁓ was it like for you? And then we move forward from there. And so to hear where people started or where their story with grief started or whatever the case may be to where they're at today, it's incredibly powerful. Daiana, LMHC: And we do say that the living loss lesson is our favorite part. And it is because it gives us hope. Right. ⁓ you were saying how ⁓ the we talk about are heavy, ⁓ and always with so much hope through the lessons that we hear. Through ⁓ a lot times we want to know, but how? And we've gotten so many tactile things, you know. that we can do or even be inspired from or look at their the meaning they created and say like yeah well that applies to me too and I didn't think of it that way. Cassandra, LMHC: And sometimes we've even had people not know how to name what had happened until we got talking about it. Or they hadn't really thought about it until we started speaking on it. I always enjoy watching those little aha moments. We had an interview that has not aired yet. So just saying we got some stuff coming up in season two already. ⁓ And individual had a little bit of an aha moment. Daiana, LMHC: My favorite. Cassandra, LMHC: And I thought that was such a fantastic thing for us to have been part of. Daiana, LMHC: So powerful. I I would agree that I and I believe that in every episode and all of our interviews, including our own conversations, that we've had moments that we realize something that we do what do you say, like hit in the feels ⁓ You know, whether it's with you and I or with ⁓ someone we're that we do get hit in the feels that we do have these really human moments of connection. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I remember one person indiv specifically that we interviewed, I was visibly moved by their story. And they said afterwards that they almost stopped to make sure that I was okay. And I was really grateful that they didn't because it would have changed the entire flow of the interview. it meant a lot to me that. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: they were willing to allow me into that space with them. Daiana, LMHC: Again, you had mentioned safety and grief. And this is what we want, right? ⁓ a place of safety for people, to be able to name the losses, to to that they are those feelings and those experiences are valid, ⁓ and to courage to to share it. Cassandra, LMHC: And we got a lot of really great tips on how to do that from most of our guests. That was a pretty common theme across the board was this is how I wish I had been supported, this is what I've learned, and this is what I'd like to share. when Heidi came in and just did an entire episode about that, it was so moving because ⁓ experiences that she'd had and the things that had been done and said around her. ⁓ we can easily shake our head at, but at the same point in time, I know that I've said some of those things. I know that my intentions were not to harm anyone. I just didn't know what to do with it. Daiana, LMHC: Same. As we were and during that interview, I ⁓ remembered moment my dad passed that I thought of a friend whose dad had recently passed, and ⁓ this wave sadness or realization, like, ⁓ my God, I didn't support her. I I wasn't there for her, in the way that I I would have wanted to. And we're not perfect. We're not going to do it perfect ever, probably, right? And it's not about that. It's about through it, doing better, not only for others, but for ourselves too. Giving ourselves the grace. Cassandra, LMHC: Ever. It's all about practice, not perfection. Because at least if we're practicing, we may be moving forward. We may be taking on a skill that we didn't know that we needed to have. We may be able to something different the next time. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, that that episode about waiting for the perfect moment was another one that resonated because for the most part we we do that a lot. Cassandra, LMHC: Wait for our future self to figure things out for us. Daiana, LMHC: And to do better. And that happens a lot when we haven't acknowledged our losses. And we're not mm-hmm. Yeah, that we may not even be waiting for the perfect version. We think that that's what it is, but it's that we haven't the version that we are living and the past versions of all the losses. Cassandra, LMHC: Or been willing to hold space. Or maybe we're expecting just a little too much from the future version. Like Future Me is gonna use all of the planners and of the ⁓ pens that I purchased and ⁓ of the different things. I have like fourteen journals sitting on my bookshelf over there looking me in the face. But that future me. She's gonna use every single one of ⁓ Because who knows when I might need one. Daiana, LMHC: A whole lot. Mm-hmm. Yeah. She sure will. Yeah. Yeah. So it's about ⁓ embracing that imperfection. I love how everyone, including us, shared how we've navigated through that so imperfectly. ⁓ Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And that's okay. Cassandra, LMHC: It has to be because that's the only way to do it. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. So Cassandra, what is something that you're looking forward to for season two? Whether it's topics or anything. Cassandra, LMHC: I'm really looking forward to just seeing if we can grow this community, honestly, and reach more people. Because this has been such a pivotal thing for me that I really, really would love to share it with with others. And I want to keep sharing it with others. We have some very consistent listeners, which I think is just a beautiful, beautiful thing. And then we get people that like log in from all over the world. that just ⁓ means so much to me. And so I'm I'm really looking forward to seeing else we can reach and who else we can share this with because we're all carrying some kind of grief. Every single one of us. And whether we recognize it or not, it's there ⁓ ⁓ deserves to be acknowledged. Daiana, LMHC: Hmm. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. It's so funny. Usually in living lost lessons, you're like, well, how am I gonna follow that? Now I'm like, well, how am I gonna follow that? Cause isn't that isn't that the point, and within that sentiment ⁓ is to continue to highlight these experiences that don't talk about. One of them ⁓ Cassandra, LMHC: How about you? You're welcome. Daiana, LMHC: keeps coming up for me is loneliness. ⁓ it presents differently in men and women, right? So loneliness in men, it's They experience something different. And I'm looking forward to meeting people who want to share their story when it comes to loneliness. For us to act ⁓ not only to spread message, but to inspire change, to help people figure out how. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: to get out of that loneliness, to empower people to make changes. And it's so funny because we just had the pre a pre-interview today for for an interview we're going to do the next season. And and he talked about this sneak peek about how we have everything that we need within us. And I ⁓ hope that all of these episodes helps you find that thing that you already have within you. Cassandra, LMHC: also looking forward to having more people reach out to us hint hint listeners whoever you might be with topic ideas what do you want to hear about what do you want us to talk about what's something that you think is but ⁓ ⁓ your world that you want to see explored ⁓ than happy to do that Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. you do not need accolades at all. You don't have to have written a book. You don't have to have any of that. Actually, in our interviews, when we when we hear all the accolades, we're like, yeah, and ⁓ are your losses? What are those hidden, ⁓ experiences that you're actually here to share? Because it's not about the accolades. ⁓ is it cool? ⁓ Sure, you have different experiences, but it's not, it's truly about the human, the human experience. So we would love, yeah. We would love for you to reach out, whether it's with topic ideas or for you to come on the show. Cassandra, LMHC: Every single time. Daiana, LMHC: Even if you think you would never. Cassandra, LMHC: I never thought I would. And then that's how we ended up here, quite honestly. Daiana was telling me about this idea that she had and this thing that she wanted to start doing and she wasn't sure how she was gonna talk to herself. And I was like, ⁓ you wanna talk to me? ⁓ like, I'd love to have you on the show to be interviewed. I was like, I can just do it with you and she's like, ⁓ yeah, let's do that ⁓ it's been s just Daiana, LMHC: You sure do. jumped right on that. I'm like, You sure? 'Cause that sounds amazing. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: An amazing experience. I look forward to doing this every week. Daiana, LMHC: Same here. Same here. So, you know, since we always end with a living loss lesson, what is something that you have learned through this season? Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I have learned Okay, this is gonna sound a little self-deprecating, but that's not the way I mean it. I have learned how many times I have fallen short on supporting those who are grieving. And I have learned how to show up and be present to the best of my ability for those who need a little more than what I n I realized they needed in the past. I have been the one in the past been like, reach out if you need anything, just let me know, and I'll show up. No, just show up. Just do the thing. Just be there. Just send the message. Just bring over the dinner. Just just do the thing. And I'm so grateful have learned or to have taken steps towards learning how to be more present in the future for someone who. who might be suffering or grieving. And I've also learned how many different faces grief wears. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: How about yourself, Miss Daiana? Daiana, LMHC: think ⁓ what comes to the top, there's so many things, but is this deep gratitude. For this happening exactly when it did. Because you're right, I've been thinking about this for years. And I felt like it wasn't the right time or was too much to figure out, there was a peace that came me of this is gonna work out. ⁓ Do it, do it. ⁓ And I a of gratitude for the support. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: That the podcast encompassing all of it, all of the experiences I've had with you and with everyone we've interviewed, all the behind-the-scenes things, all of the learning. I just feel immense gratitude for that feeling of being held through this season. I mean, I think We have things that we that are that are personal to us that we don't share that are small, right? That we it's it's ⁓ we still tend to think that a death is the ultimate grief. But we have experienced so much loss in these past six months in different ways, but have also gained so much, so much so much support. through it. Some so many aha moments. I mean like lost count how many realizations you and I have had, just like the one you just mentioned. So just a lot of gratitude. Cassandra, LMHC: And I do think that you had mentioned it before and I'm gonna say it again, even our own personal connection has grown in a way that I didn't expect. But I don't I don't want to say you couldn't do it without me, and I don't want to say I couldn't do it without you, but I don't think either of us would have gotten this far solo. Because 24 episodes and not missing a single week is that not everyone can do. And even if some of them were repeats, that's okay. And we just kind of learn to roll with it. ⁓ I I think it's a really perfect push and pull. ⁓ were discussing various tasks that we do earlier. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Mm mm, mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And my strengths might be something that aren't yours and your strengths might be something that aren't mine. And they just seem to work really well together. And for that I'm grateful. So thank you for thank you for letting me be part of this thing that you've been thinking about for years. I really I'm grateful. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. It wouldn't be the same without you if you would have done this on your own or or myself. It's it it is what it is because of the both of us. I love that. You said that in our first episode and I laughed out loud while I was editing Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah, buddy. I knew I had to throw it in the last one. Daiana, LMHC: That's so funny. I want to thank you, Cassandra, and thank ⁓ single guest that we've had on this show, ⁓ single person that has listened, even if for five minutes, I am and we are deeply grateful to you for being a part of our circle for these past six months and today. And remember that by sharing this episode, you're helping us reach someone else who is carrying their loss in silence. Let's keep growing this community together. Subscribe, follow, share, and know that your story matters. Cassandra, LMHC: And just as a reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, are not your therapists, unless would like us to be. Then you can look at our stuff in the show notes. I'm just throwing that out there. But this not replace professional mental health care. If you feel like you would like to speak to someone, please reach out to a professional Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: near you. Daiana, LMHC: ⁓ Cassandra, LMHC: Woo!