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Tenuous Sobriety, Sanity, and ICE Crackdown · Outside Issues

• 0:02
  Speaker A: It's really a labor of love, you know, out of love for my family, my ancestors, the various Latino and immigrant attorneys who paved the way so that people like us could be in these positions. And now to be able to use my education, my power, and my privilege to open the doors for those who are coming after me.
• 0:26
  Speaker B: Welcome to Outside Issues with Audrey and Patrick. Hi. Three hours, huh? Oh.
• 0:33
  Speaker A: Oh. Of sleep. I don't know. My partner snores a lot. Jesus Christ.
• 0:40
  Speaker B: My girlfriend's a very light sleeper, so I'll, like, record podcasts early sometimes. These days I try and separate church and state a little bit and not disrupt her too much in the morning. But there's definitely. There's definitely been times where, like, I've had to do things earlier, and it's just fucked up her sleep for, like, whole day. So.
• 0:59
  Speaker A: I'm sorry. Are you still dating Maddie? Yeah.
• 1:03
  Speaker B: No, no, no. We broke up, like, I think, two years ago, something like that. Yeah. I've been with a new person for the last, like, little more than a year. First person I've dated, actually. That's, like, not from the rooms, so that's been interesting.
• 1:19
  Speaker A: Nice.
• 1:19
  Speaker B: She's. She's one of those normies we hear about.
• 1:22
  Speaker A: She's a normie? Yeah, we, I, I. It's funny. I met my fiance through it. Like, it wasn't a dating app. It was a sober social networking app. And, like, it was, like, really, like, prototype. It was really, like, stupid.
• 1:38
  Speaker B: Whoa. So you're, like, on the cutting edge of sober dating.
• 1:42
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it was just, like. It was kind of like sober Facebook. So, like, you would, like, post, like, hey, I had this many days today. Oh, I have this many. Like, today's my birthday or something like that. And then he posted, and then we started talking, and then kind of went on from there.
• 2:00
  Speaker B: That's cool. So I didn't know you were engaged. Congratulations.
• 2:03
  Speaker A: Oh, thank you. I've been engaged for about three years now. But that's cool. There's a lot of stuff. And that goes back to, like, my recovery, too, and mental health that I. That both of us need to work on before we commit to each other forever.
• 2:22
  Speaker B: So when I first got sober, it was at the urging of everybody, but, like, particularly I started seeing this therapist, Alan Berger, and a longtime sober guy. I wanted to date, like, as soon as I got sober because, you know, I wanted to feel human again, you know? And, like, I was worried that maybe those days were behind me. And so, like, oftentimes we're encouraged to not do it. Because we're so raw. And like, you know, what if something goes wrong and you can go into a tailspin and relapse? And that actually happened. Like, when I was first trying to get clean, I tried to date. I was like, in a sober living, and I, like, went on a couple dates and then like, they. It didn't work out. Like, a lot of first dates don't and I would, like, immediately relapse. And so there's been instances where I've taken it the other direction. But what I appreciated is just to wrap this up is that he. He encouraged me to get out there and fail and. Or just to like, you know, we only learn by doing kind of thing. And like, I. That has been like a conception of recovery that, like, is really appealing to me, which is that, you know, like, you don't have to be in bubble wrap you know, every day, you know, to get through life. I mean, maybe it's. It can be like that sometimes because, you know, my brains, I'm wired like, a little differently than, you know, quote unquote, normal people. But. But I, you know, I still need to learn by doing. And so anyway, yeah, I was with Maddie for three or four years, something like that, and then it didn't work out. And. But like, we stayed in touch. You know, we're not in touch currently, but like, we. I'm proud of how, like, civil, at least in the context of my past breakups.
• 4:15
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 4:16
  Speaker B: And so I don't know, is. Is. Did you ever date people in the rooms or were you.
• 4:22
  Speaker A: I was 13 step. So.
• 4:24
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah? Yeah. You were telling me there was like a rough. One particular.
• 4:27
  Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. He had 20 years of sobriety and he was 20 years older than me, and that just was extremely enticing. And so we had kind of a situationship with some dude and I found out he was a sex offender. So I was just like, okay, I don't think I can do this. And. But. But this shit lasted like two years. Like, I. We first hooked up when I had 60 days and he had like 19 years and I was 30 and he was 50. Um, and then, like, it just went on until I had two years and he had. Yeah, until I had two years. And then I think, like, yeah, it just stopped after I met my fiance. I mean, it was fun. Like, I can't. I can't lie, it was really fun. Until it wasn't.
• 5:19
  Speaker B: I dated somebody in my first year who. And I always think back fondly to it. She had relocated from The South Bay where I first met her to, like, a mental institution essentially. And, you know, just for, like, she kept her sobriety, but, like, she was suffering from, like, other, you know, like, suicidal ideations and stuff like that. And so, like, I just can't help but look at that as positive because we were both just reaching for a boy, you know, in the storm, you know, and we were good to each other. And, you know, I got dumped pretty, like, soon after we got together. But, yeah, you know, one of the things I felt good about this. She'd taken a bunch of photos when she was, like, I don't know, early college age or, like, high school. And so she had these, like, albums of, like, all these photos she took on film. And when we were like, in our, you know, honeymoon, kind of whatever, like, first few weeks, I'm like, ah, let me, like, take those and scan them for you. And then, like, you'll have, you know, you know, you'll be able to hold onto them forever or share them or whatever. And anyway, and then the dumping or the breaking up happened so quickly that that bit of business never got resolved. And so I was just. Had these giant, like, albums of all of her stuff. I went and scanned them, like, a year ago or something like that and sent them to her. And I hadn't spoken to her in a while, and it felt good to be able to, like, not only wrap up that bit of business, but, like, to kind of have a positive transmission, be like the, you know, and they're pretty good pictures, so I'm glad she's got them.
• 6:47
  Speaker A: I don't have any exes who I'm on speaking terms with. I tried to, you know, make amends with my college boyfriend, but he wanted nothing to do with me, so I had that. And then the other couple of boyfriends were abusive, so I obviously never contacted them because that would harm me right now. Like, I told you that I have that diagnosis.
• 7:13
  Speaker B: Do you mind describing or talking about that a little bit?
• 7:15
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So it's really interesting, actually. I got diagnosed. So I went to grad school at UCLA from 2020 to 2022 to get my. My master's in social work. Hence why I'm here.
• 7:30
  Speaker B: Congratulations, by the way.
• 7:32
  Speaker A: Thank you. I guess that the stress caused something in my brain to snap. Like, looking back on it, I think, like, okay, yeah, I had these, like, ups and downs, but not really anything that I could have noticed, but something in my brain really, that summer before, like, my second year of grad school and I went into Like, a full site psychosis.
• 7:56
  Speaker B: And this was in sobriety.
• 7:57
  Speaker A: It was in sobriety. And of course, like, I didn't know that I was sober either, because, like, you're convinced that you're, like, an intergalactic being or something like that. Like, that's what I thought. I thought that famous people were writing things about me. I would get messages from, like, songs and from TV shows and all this stuff. And then, like, it's all of a blur. Like, a lot of it I forget. And, like, a lot of it was traumatic, so I hear. But then I got hospitalized at the UCLA Resonant Neuropsychiatric Ward, which is really good because I was a UCLA student at the time, so I was able to, like, get a bed there.
• 8:45
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 8:46
  Speaker A: And so I sort of. I stayed there for two weeks. And so in California, and I think here in Washington, too, you get hospitalized, like, 5150 for either, like, suicidal thoughts or grave disability. And so I was in grave disability because I was just out of my mind. I didn't know what was going on. I thought I was being videotaped everywhere I went. Like, I thought everybody, like, was holding out their phones. They were actually, like, recording me so they could tell this story about me or something like that. So, yeah, I went into that psychosis, like, in 2021, and then I was fine afterwards. I graduated and then moved up here in 2022. Like, October 2022. Started seeing a therapist. That was very weird because I was, like, into spiritual things. Like, you know, I really wanted to, like, meet and, like, maintain my connection with, like, my higher power and everything like that. And a lot of, like, my previous therapists hadn't been like that. I mean, they were, like, familiar with the concept of sobriety, but they weren't really, like, okay, like, this is how you connect to your higher power in order to, you know, keep your mental health maintained. And this. This therapist basically told me that, like, you know, all of my mental issues were caused by Satan.
• 10:18
  Speaker B: Wait, your therapist told you that?
• 10:20
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
• 10:22
  Speaker B: Was it a ploy or were. They were serious?
• 10:24
  Speaker A: They were serious.
• 10:25
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 10:27
  Speaker A: She retired, thank God. But she was serious. And so I started believing her. And then I started a job at an iop. My background is in trauma and in, like, interpersonal violence. So I was working at this place as one of the primary therapists. So I would see each individual, or, like, one individual at a time, like, each hour. And I was. It was great. I loved it. I. I. I just absolutely loved it. And it was in this A part of Seattle called Green Lake, which is just so gorgeous. It's, like, on this lake, you can kayak.
• 11:09
  Speaker B: It looks. Looks like it sounds.
• 11:11
  Speaker A: Yes. Like, a new clinical director came in, and I could just tell that there were bad vibes going on. And we had a training on how to restrain clients, which is, like, physically. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:27
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 11:28
  Speaker A: And which. Which is understandable considering if you're in, like, an inpatient facility or something, like. But in an Iop, like, you're not gonna do that. And we had to demonstrate on ourselves. And this new clinic director injured my arm by, like. By, like, grabbing onto me. And I was, like, trying to be the patient, like, squirming around, and she, like, left a bunch of bruises. So I was like, this isn't a really great sign. The day before I got let go, I was running a group called, like, Fun Fridays or something like that where we put on movies. And so I wanted to put Silver Linings Playbook.
• 12:08
  Speaker B: Oh, I love that movie.
• 12:10
  Speaker A: Yeah. Nami is. Or Nami. Nami is the. It's ranked number one. Is, like, the most, like, accurate representation of mental illness, like, films.
• 12:23
  Speaker B: I have a feeling. Yeah. David O. Russell is a sufferer, from what I understand. He made it for. So his son. His son has mental illness as well. I think I heard that he made it to give his son hope about.
• 12:32
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna play this movie. We're all. Everybody's over 18. Like, I had showed that. That movie, like, Inside out, which is.
• 12:47
  Speaker B: You know, another great one.
• 12:49
  Speaker A: Yeah, another great one. But this new clinic director was like, you can't show that movie. It's too triggering to people. Like, how. How could you even do that? You have to do, like, a Disney movie. And I was like, I already put on Inside Out. Like, this is, like, Naomi's number one suggestion. Like, what am I supposed to do? I wasn't saying this, like, you know, aggressively or anything like that.
• 13:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:14
  Speaker A: But, like, she. One day, I, I. I sort of up, and I was like, with. I was meeting with my therapist, and it went a little bit over, and I missed, like, starting a group, and I just felt, like, some weird vibes. And I asked, and then I had, like, a calendar invite on my Google Calendar being, like, meeting with, like, the. The clinic director in California because there was a location in California. And I asked my. My boss, I was like, what is this meeting about? And she's like, oh, it's going to be about, like, introductions. And I was like, okay. Cool. And so I get on this meeting, and they're like, we're sorry, we regret to inform you, but we're move forward with termination because your. Your style of therapy does not alone align with our values.
• 14:08
  Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, already, it's like, you didn't. You know.
• 14:10
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And the. The clients loved me. Like, I don't want to brag, but, like, I loved my clients. I loved all the clients. They loved me. It was like a good. Because it's a small place, so it was just really great. And so they fired me. I was shocked because this was my first job, like, out of grad school, and it was like my. My dream job. I was like, I. I was making bank, too, which is really, like, really rare for social work. And so I was. You know, I was devastated. Two weeks after I got fired, I went into psychosis again. People ask me, how you. How do you. Like, what does psychosis feel like? And like, for me, it's like the best time in the world, but then the worst time in the world because there's. There's also, like, paranoia and stuff like that.
• 15:09
  Speaker B: It's very vivid and, like, absorbing. I mean.
• 15:12
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 15:13
  Speaker B: On the positive side. Right. And then on the negative, it just.
• 15:16
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 15:16
  Speaker B: All the problems that that dissociation causes.
• 15:19
  Speaker A: Yeah. I got hospitalized at two hospitals up here, one of which. Well, both of them actually were just horrible compared to UCLA.
• 15:28
  Speaker B: What year was this?
• 15:30
  Speaker A: 2023.
• 15:32
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 15:33
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 15:34
  Speaker B: I'm so sorry you went through that.
• 15:35
  Speaker A: Oh, thank you. Yeah. The good thing is I got a lot of good friends out of it, and I've always gotten some good friends out of treatment. Inpatient treatment like that. In fact, I got. The one main one that I got was at. I also went to Delamo Hospital in Torrance.
• 15:55
  Speaker B: Oh. Yeah.
• 15:56
  Speaker A: For ptsd next to the Din Tai.
• 15:59
  Speaker B: Fung or, you know.
• 16:00
  Speaker A: Right, right. And I met my. I guess you could call him my. My ex boyfriend or something. Adam. And we kind of, like, sort of fell in love, even though there were drugs involved. It was like a weird spiritual thing. He passed away from an overdose. So, um, that's. But that was my closest relationship that I ever met in. In inpatient. And now, like, I have up here, I have, like, a lot of good friends that I met in inpatient.
• 16:34
  Speaker B: So I have a. Somewhere I got. I hope it's not destroyed or something, but I've got, like, a handwritten list of phone numbers from my stint in rehab. I've not called one since I left.
• 16:47
  Speaker A: Oh.
• 16:47
  Speaker B: And it's not. Cause I don't like them. I think I just. I saw. My mission is to just carry on the. You know, I. I saw that as then and this is now. Yeah. But I. Yeah, I mean, I just. That's kind of special if you were able to keep those people in, you know?
• 17:05
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's. I was. I was very. Like, not a lot of people, from what I know, like, not a lot of people have that experience. I'm very grateful that I met all these people and became close with them.
• 17:17
  Speaker B: I'm sorry to hear about Adam.
• 17:19
  Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah, I. I always tell this in. In meetings. Like, I feel like there's just this one night where I. All the drugs and all the alcohol were out, and I just collapsed, like, on my bed, and I felt like this, like, big force, and I felt him, and I was like, I. And I felt like, this sounds like psychosis, but it more was, like, spiritual. I felt like this. This kind of voicing, like, don't. Because he was in recovery from drugs, too, and he's like, please, finish what we started together. And so ever since then, I, like, kept my word. And. Yeah, he's. He's. He's up there somewhere. I know that.
• 18:11
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 18:12
  Speaker A: Whenever I'm having a hard time, I try to talk to him, and I see, like, little. Little signs like, he. He was a dj, and so I listened to his music all the time.
• 18:23
  Speaker B: That rocks. Yeah. I got making things. I'm just so stoked when anybody, like, listens or watches, you know, anything that I made. And I'm sure he would feel the same way that, like, oh, somebody still listen to my stuff.
• 18:37
  Speaker A: Yeah. Like, my podcast. Like, only, like, a couple of people listen to that because it's so long.
• 18:43
  Speaker B: What, the. The one that you sent me?
• 18:46
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 18:46
  Speaker B: It's not that long.
• 18:48
  Speaker A: Yeah. That a lot of people think it's long. It's like. Oh, it's like, 36 minutes. Like, whatever.
• 18:53
  Speaker B: Yeah. Meanwhile, Joe Rogan's like, I'm on my fifth hour with, you know, smoking weed in my space helmet, and, you know, Jesus Christ.
• 19:02
  Speaker A: Well, at least, like, Hassan is on, too, at the same time. So.
• 19:06
  Speaker B: Yeah, he's insane. No, but, like, I. There's a meeting I go to in Huntington Beach. A lot of death because of Fentanyl. You know, there's just a lot of people in and out. I just wish that people had enough time to learn from their mistakes.
• 19:21
  Speaker A: This took me a long time to accept and sort of come around to it, but being in Seattle, like, it's more prevalent, but harm Reduction is a. It's a big thing here. And so if you need to, like, if you need to use. There's places that you can go with like clean needles and people with Narcan and stuff like that, which I, I'm very supportive of.
• 19:48
  Speaker B: I mean, I think that it's because, like, however you know, haphazard critics of it might say it is, in practice, it is a crucial step towards the kind of decriminalization and kind of like.
• 20:02
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 20:02
  Speaker B: Getting society to orient around the issue of addiction in a way that's not. Where it's not a moral issue anymore.
• 20:10
  Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I was watching a TED talk on it because one of my clients is. He does harm reduction with alcohol. We, like, we talked a lot about abstinence and it just didn't really work out for him. And it, like he has a couple of beers here and there and it doesn't affect. He's like a coach. He's just this amazing girls basketball coach. It's like I've never been met any. Anybody like him. And he, he'll just have like a beer, watching a game or something at home. And that's, that's his normal. Just as long as he doesn't go out and do anything illegal or dangerous. He's not hurting himself or anybody else. Like, he's just sipping a beer.
• 21:00
  Speaker B: And that's been helping him out.
• 21:02
  Speaker A: Oh yeah. We decided that harm reduction is probably the best way to go because he says, I feel more responsible this way than, you know, going to the bar and watching like the Mariners game or whatever. I feel much more comfortable in my home.
• 21:18
  Speaker B: I mean, I'm just very anti. Orthodoxy, you know, of most, most types. And I, I feel like it's. Addiction would have to be as, as expansive and complicated as people are, you know. So there's different types of, you know, our relationship to substances. You know what I mean? It's like our relationship to each other. And there's like a million variations. I mean, I don't think that this like necessarily discounts or excludes anything that like Bill W. Wrote about, you know, I mean, it's just that there are such cases where like, you know, people are better served by you know, not, not an abstinence based. But like, you know, I mean, I. When I think it was Lana Del Rey, is California sober or was at some point.
• 22:06
  Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 22:07
  Speaker B: Where I think she, she just smokes pot and like. But I remember listening to that and just like. And she, she. This was like a step that she'd taken Away from opiates and, like, which kill people as we've just.
• 22:24
  Speaker A: That was. My drug of choice was opiates.
• 22:26
  Speaker B: Well, yeah, me too. Yeah. And so I feel like if that's working for her, you know, then even at its most kind of like, fundamental level, that is extending her life, you know, and that's all that we can do, is just like, if it's another day above ground, then we've got all kinds of opportunities to turn our lives around. You know what I mean? But if we're hung up on this idea of it's all or nothing, you know, I mean, like, that. I feel like that's going to really serve. I mean, for me, it really serves me because I really need to shut myself into this paradigm. My. My addiction so strong, you know what I mean? Like, you know, I don't. I don't believe that I have the capacity to moderate, but I have to believe that there are. There are people who do. Have you continued with your spiritual practice?
• 23:12
  Speaker A: My ancestors. See, this is like, where a lot of my psychosis came in. My ancestors go back to, like, the 15, 1600s. They. Some of them created Quakerism, if you've heard of that religion.
• 23:24
  Speaker B: Yeah. Are they pacifists? Quakers?
• 23:27
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Well, they're actually. They're more protesting. They believed in gay marriage back in the 1700s.
• 23:35
  Speaker B: Wow, that's incredible.
• 23:37
  Speaker A: And then their adversaries, like in the colonies were the Puritans, who tried to.
• 23:43
  Speaker B: Like, those are the bad ones.
• 23:44
  Speaker A: Those are the bad ones. We were the good ones and we didn't commit genocide or anything. All we did was, like, hang out with the natives and, like, roll oats and stuff like that. So, yeah, we were the. We were the good ones and we were all about social justice. And so I was like, this really makes sense that, like, you know, these are bloodline ancestors.
• 24:09
  Speaker B: So. Wow, that's incredible. You know, gotta give a shout out to. When I was with Maddie, she had a cat named Tony, may you rest in peace. And she used to say. She used to say that he was a Quaker because he was just. He's a very kind of pacifist cat and, you know, treated all that he met with dignity. And so, yeah, that's. That would always get a laugh out of people, but I think she was serious.
• 24:34
  Speaker A: So, yeah, Quakers are pacifists, but if something needs to be done, like, shit.
• 24:39
  Speaker B: Gets right, maybe we could kind of work our way into some politics at this point. I do a podcast called Emotional Sobriety, the Next Step in Recovery. With a couple of Very lovely boomer liberals. And that's rare. I know, right? The world is on fire.
• 24:58
  Speaker A: Yep.
• 24:58
  Speaker B: And I just feel like all kinds of people who maybe never thought of themselves as political or did their best to remain somewhat neutral, and that's never just cards on the table. That's never really been me. But I'm just talking about the constellation of people around me and just what I observe in my daily life, being so immersed in 12 step fellowships where politics are confined to outside issues. And you want to keep. And I think the reasons for that are good, is that you want to. To keep as many people in the arc as possible. And if there's somebody with, like, an abhorrent political belief, you know, who nonetheless has dragged themselves to a meeting to get well, you know, you want to help that person get well. And I, you know, and I think that ultimately the people who. People who are recovering tend to be more civilized and more compassionate. That doesn't always happen, but, like, you know, I think that there is a greater chance for, you know, for people to be in harmony with each other and with the universe if they're so outside issues are outside issues. But, yeah, it's becoming harder and harder because we want to put the fire out and we don't get there. I don't think. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but by being neutral, I think it.
• 26:25
  Speaker A: Was Martin Luther King who said, everything stops when we stop talking. See, I think I was telling you about, like, how therapists will. Will normally, like, I'd say 90% or maybe 85% of therapists will say to their clients, don't watch the news right now. It's too triggering. And that may be the case for some clients. That may be the case for some. Some people. And, you know, good on them. That's fine. I'm. I don't approach it that way. I approach it as, like, not like exposure therapy, but, like, look, like this kind of stuff is affecting your mental state, and it's affecting, like, a collective mental state and remaining neutral on it, as in, I mean, neutrality has its place, like, in emotion, mind, but, like, if you remain neutral to the, like, the unjust going on, then it's possibly. It's possibly like, detrimental to your own recovery. Because obviously, you know, the LGBTQ and the Trevor Project just got, like, defunded. And for me and for other people, that. That's. That's gonna be hard. That's gonna be really difficult. And we're gonna be on the front lines of, like, LGBTQ suicides. And suicide prevention. So yeah, I think, I think being aware of things and like I said, being part of a community that shares your belief and maybe taking a brave step towards, towards exposing yourself in, in political views rather than sort of. That's not the right word. Rather than like kind of hid from them and like hearing the over like.
• 28:25
  Speaker B: Leading with the fear.
• 28:26
  Speaker A: Yes, yes, like, like com completely. Just like, oh, I heard this today. Okay, I heard this today. I gotta hide again. I have to hide again. I, I, I can't hear this anymore. And before you know it, there's something that's really big that's gonna affect you. So I just tell people, I tell my clients, like, remain in a community if that, even if that's just one, if it's one other person beliefs or is there to talk to. It could be like, you know, obviously a protest. It could be like, like a DSA group. Like, it could be anything, an AA group. It could be really anything. Just stay in community and learn from others. And so you feel supported instead of alone and hiding under a blanket every single time something horrible happens in politics.
• 29:20
  Speaker B: What did you call it? Exposure training.
• 29:22
  Speaker A: Exposure therapy.
• 29:24
  Speaker B: Because see, I talk to my therapist. We don't agree on the politics always, but he's always like, been an ally in the sense that like, he tells me, you got to nurture this thing inside of you, you know, you got to find a way to put it into a container, you know, that's somewhat constructive. And you know, like, the form that a lot of this takes for me is posting. It's a lot of just anxious energy that just kind of ship in the bottle and it goes out and, and you know, it's like posting. I think it deservedly gets a bad rap when it's the kind of sole focus of all of our. What can be an amazing, amazing amount of energy, you know, that could probably be harnessed into something positive. When it just goes into the posting, I think that's bad. But, you know, nothing is ever just one thing. Like during COVID I got on Twitter and I didn't, I didn't understand really like what Twitter was like before I went into that period of extreme social distancing. You know, it's like what, you have like 140 characters and you know, and people read those and you make friends through like these little phrases that you. But I actually met so many, not even just politically like minded people, but a lot of like movie nerds and kind of like filmmakers and podcasters and, you know, people that like, I have A lot of one on one interaction with, to this day. And I think the same goes for politics. I mean, you know, you and I connected over our political posts and we're kind of like trying to figure out, you know, how we can, you know, make this into a more constructive collaboration. My perfect universe. There would be these, these recovery fellowships, you know, and there would be, there would be 12 step and. Or, you know, there would be trauma recovery, you know, like you've spoken to. But then there'd be a real healthy sidebar of like, you know, where you really get involved and kind of, you have solidarity with each other with like minded people and kind of pursue political projects, you know, and that there is a little bit of the membrane is kind of like it's not completely solid between those two things. You're. How many years have you been off the sauce, so to speak?
• 31:25
  Speaker A: 8. October of 2016.
• 31:27
  Speaker B: Holy shit. That was like. Yeah, we were talking about a month before the election day.
• 31:33
  Speaker A: Yep, yep, I remember.
• 31:35
  Speaker B: Were you in the rehab when that happened or you just got out, you were in rehab?
• 31:40
  Speaker A: I was also the first time that. Well, I was, I was in sober living and just getting sober in 2016, right as Trump was being inaugurated. But I was in a different facility for that facility for ptsd when during election night. And like, we all like went to sleep, of course. And I didn't like, unfortunately I didn't care, which is sad. But, you know, I was a patient and I get up and go to the bathroom at 2 in the morning and one of the nurses was like, hey, you know that Trump won. And I was like, what? Okay? And I wake up and I'm like, oh, fuck.
• 32:20
  Speaker B: At that moment you were obviously going through a lot, but were you like me where like you just kind of had this expectation that it wouldn't be somebody so off the wall that it was Hillary's and like that you didn't need to worry about it.
• 32:34
  Speaker A: Right, Exactly. Exactly. I thought as soon as he said the grab him by the pussy comment, I was like, that's it, he's done.
• 32:42
  Speaker B: See, I felt the same way. Because of Clinton, there was such a, like moral outrage at like his, you know, infidelity or, you know, his sexual assaults and stuff when I was growing up that I thought. And I. And Gary Hart, wasn't that the name of the politician like before him who like had a sex scandal? And like I just grew up in.
• 33:01
  Speaker A: The era of the sex scandal Politician.
• 33:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. Where like there was still a. Before Trump, there was still like an effort Being made to like, keep that. Those kinds of, like, personal, whatever you want to call them, just those horrible aspects of, you know, of masculinity to kind of keep those under wraps. And so. And so, yeah, when I, when the Access Hollywood tape came out, I thought, well, he's cooked. Because, like, this is a country that, you know, or at least the voting base doesn't really like, tolerate that kind of behavior from their politicians. But that was a. We all learned something, didn't we?
• 33:38
  Speaker A: We. Oh. Oh, my God. And I was actually, at the time, I was in a domestic violence relationship, which is a whole other thing I can go into. But so I wasn't really like that connected. But previously in like 20, from 2011 to like 2014, I was very much like into politics. And I. I think I told you I wrote a blog that I can't find anymore.
• 34:03
  Speaker B: WordPress or.
• 34:04
  Speaker A: Yeah, WordPress.
• 34:05
  Speaker B: Nice. Yeah, I got one of those. I need to find.
• 34:07
  Speaker A: So cheesy. It was so cheesy. But I, I loved writing it. And so. And back then, like, the big thing was the Tea Party. And so I would make fun of people in the Tea Party and like, you know that that was the extreme. And I'm just like now I'm like, the Tea Party is. It's like the Democrats.
• 34:25
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. They're cute almost now.
• 34:27
  Speaker A: Yeah, I know. Like, like, God, what's his name? I forget his name. I forget. I forget a lot of the Tea Party guys names.
• 34:37
  Speaker B: But for whatever reason, I'm thinking. So we're. Was it Santorum and Paul Ryan? Could they, could those be described as Tea Party?
• 34:44
  Speaker A: Yes, definitely. Paul Ryan's Tea Party. Yeah.
• 34:48
  Speaker B: Right. And like you said, those are the Democrats essentially now, which is horrifying, but it is what it is, you know?
• 34:54
  Speaker A: Yeah. And so I made fun of a lot of like, you know, governors, like Rick Scott or like. Well, I think. Oh yeah, he's kind of. I think he's MAGA now.
• 35:05
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah, big time. The bald guy, right? He looks like. Yeah, yeah, he's. Well, because they all are. Because that's what they need to do to stay alive.
• 35:13
  Speaker A: They all have to shed their skin.
• 35:16
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly like shedding their skin. I'm just imagining. It's funny. I heard somebody describe Rick Scott as. He looks like a freshly birthed xenomorph, like from Alien movies.
• 35:28
  Speaker A: I have this side by side. I don't know where it is now. It's somewhere. But it's a side by side photo of him and some movie character with its Eyes. It's bald. And his eyes is like.
• 35:39
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I think that's from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Yeah, I think it's one of those guys. Yeah.
• 35:43
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. I was just dying when I saw that. I'm like, oh, my God. And then the. The governor from Wisconsin was like, like, Tea Party. Maybe Chris Christie even was. Christie is like, now, like. Like a left. Left compared to now. It's. It's insane.
• 36:06
  Speaker B: Well, Tea Party was kind of like, that was the organized response on the right to Obama during the Obama administration. That was all. They were, like, all about fiscal responsibility. Right. And it was more of kind of like a traditional conservatism. And that was the recipe that they landed on before they got to just, like, the pure white nativism and like, you know, pro wrestling of Trump, which is like, really been the. The era that we've been living through, you know, since as long as we've been sober.
• 36:39
  Speaker A: Yep. And who propagated the birther movement? And Glenn Beck, like, went with it. And I think. I honestly think that Glenn Beck was, like, one of the biggest, if not the most, like, biggest catalyst from magazine, because he.
• 36:55
  Speaker B: That's interesting. I don't usually think of him as being as crucial, but, I mean, he was kind of like an Alex Jones ish type figure.
• 37:02
  Speaker A: Right.
• 37:02
  Speaker B: He would do, like, the big blackboard and write all those crazy. Right. Kind of like, he.
• 37:07
  Speaker A: I just remember his. Our president is a racist. And, you know, like.
• 37:13
  Speaker B: Oh, he would say that about Obama.
• 37:14
  Speaker A: Yeah, right, right. Just, like, very, very, very, like, degrading things about, like, you know, bipoc people. And he was just so radical. And then, of course, like, Steve Bannon and, like, Breitbart. Breitbart's. Which one? Yeah, he died. Right?
• 37:35
  Speaker B: Like, oh, Andrew Breitbart died. Yeah. I'm not sure what the publication's doing.
• 37:38
  Speaker A: Right now, but yeah, yeah, Andrew Breitbart died right near my old apartment. So that's kind of cool.
• 37:45
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
• 37:48
  Speaker A: What happened to Rush Limbaugh?
• 37:50
  Speaker B: Like, yeah, Glenn Beck, Limbaugh. And then, of course, yeah, the Tea Party. Trump appropriated them, you know, for MAGA later, and they all kind of stuck around. And I think that's a big story of, like, this era, too, is like. And, you know, we're seeing just a lot of holdovers from, like, the. The Iraq War and just from all, like, these misbegotten American projects through time. Nobody really gets fired. They're dug in, like ticks, you know, we can't seem to get rid of them. Okay. So I was just listening to. I listen to Majority Report with Sam Cedar every day. That's kind of my main one.
• 38:22
  Speaker A: I love him. RIP Michael, you know.
• 38:26
  Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. Michael Brooks. It was during COVID I think it was like. It was like the early days of COVID and I was in this house actually out here. I'm in Joshua Tree right now. And this is where I lived for during COVID and then like a couple years after. But like, yeah, like me and Matty used to listen to Michael Brooks show and Majority Report. And now. Yeah. Oh yeah. And she was. Okay. So this was. I think it was actually I was out here and it was the. It was those months where we were stockpiling paper towels.
• 39:01
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 39:01
  Speaker B: And toilet paper. You know what I mean? Or like trying to. Anyway there weren't any available. But like it was before I kind of officially moved out here from Lawndale, California. And. And anyway, like, I just remember I was listening to the Majority report on my drive out of L. A. Into the desert and then they just ended the. They ended the broadcast abruptly and. And I was just like, dude, something happened. Like, I just felt like somebody died. It was the kind of thing where like they never just, you know, it was like, I think on camera, Jamie Peck and. And Sam were there. And then Matt Leck said something to him off camera and they're like, we gotta go. And anyway, and then sure enough, like a couple hours later and I just remember like calling Maddie and just telling her and we were. Just started crying, you know, because it was like he really felt like one of. Cause Sam is generation X, I think, or maybe like a little older.
• 39:54
  Speaker A: Oh no, he's definitely a Gen Xer.
• 39:57
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 39:57
  Speaker A: And then like Michael's like elder millennials. Same with Matt.
• 40:02
  Speaker B: Yeah. And so he felt like a standard bearer for like, you know, this new world that we were aging into. And. Yeah. And it was just, you know, from what I understand, freakin nature or you know, it was an aneurysm or some kind of like just momentary blood clot or something like that. And yeah, he passed. But you know, I still listen to those old episodes sometimes on my YouTube.
• 40:29
  Speaker A: Liked list is like the ones where Michael is laughing hysterically.
• 40:34
  Speaker B: That laugh. Yeah, the joker laugh. He does.
• 40:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like the one where they're doing like the Rush Limbaugh sound board.
• 40:41
  Speaker B: Oh God, yeah.
• 40:43
  Speaker A: Or like, I don't know, the Michael Bloomberg when he was exiting when he was going to not be mayor anymore. Like the swan story of Michael Bloomberg. And like Michael was laughing so hard, it's like, let's get a bunch of Russian oligarchs to live in New York City. What a great idea.
• 41:05
  Speaker B: My favorite voice that he would do. I mean, he does a great Jordan Peterson, but there are many. But his. My favorite voice was Nation of Islam Obama, where it was like, you know, where he basically just plays, like, the fantasy version that the right has of Obama. And it's great because it's like, not only is an amazing impression, it's just, like, hilarious, but, like, he makes a strong satirical point. Like, you know, it's just like when you're trying to kind of explain the context of, like, Obama's politics between right and left. Like, you know, it's. It's like. And that's what I think. Like, I would love to see more of. And I. There's nobody who's quite like Michael, but, like, to make a kind of. To make satire and, you know, entertainment, you know what I mean? And this. And with a radical politics that's also kind of like, accommodating to maybe people that are, like, more liberal or, like, you know, just. They're radical, curious, you know, And I think he was like, a good bridge between, you know, those worlds.
• 42:04
  Speaker A: Speaking of liberal, I remember the person I was thinking about, and that's John Boehner.
• 42:10
  Speaker B: Oh, the drunk.
• 42:11
  Speaker A: Yes. Yes. He would be considered, like, by MAGA as a far lefter at this point.
• 42:20
  Speaker B: Well, he was like the musta speaker. The majority. Yeah. Or, you know, speaker of the House. Right, right. Yeah. So Pre McConnell pretty much.
• 42:27
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
• 42:28
  Speaker B: Or Pre McConnell's, you know, leadership in the party.
• 42:33
  Speaker A: Yeah, he was. He was around, like, Obama's first term or something, and they would, like, have to meet in secret and stuff because the Tea Party was like, like, ramping up. But yeah, John Boehner would be considered, like, obviously, they called him a rhino. And I. I haven't heard. I haven't heard that term in a very long time because they don't even like maga. People don't even consider themselves Republicans. I don't think. Like, they say it, but it's ma. It's a cult, so.
• 43:09
  Speaker B: Well, right. That was what was interesting about the 2016 primary is, is like, how ready the Republican base was for somebody who would just torch all of them on their side. You know what I mean? They were like. They were disenchanted with, you know, oddly, in the same way that you or I are disenchanted with the leaders of the Democratic Party. You know, the Republicans under Obama had this same kind of Disaffected, you know, relationship to the gop. And so when they, to see Trump up there just ridiculing all of them, you know, that was like a huge part of like, why he was so popular. And.
• 43:46
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I never thought in a million years back then, I never ever thought that he would get elected. I thought it was a big joke.
• 43:58
  Speaker B: Yeah. You know, so this morning on the Majority Report, there was a call in and he's like a young guy with like a computer science degree or, you know, that's kind of like by, by young. I mean, I think he's just graduating college along with his friends and they're entering the workforce and there are just no jobs. It's that kind of like, you know, early recession that we're experiencing. Like, and these are people that are applying, you know, like all, you know, every day and really suiting up and showing up and trying to kind of seize on opportunities such as they are. And he painted this picture, this guy, this call in on the show of. He's got a lot of young male friends. They listen to the podcast that you and I have talked about. Andrew Schultz and Joe Rogan and Theo Vaughn that all voted Trump and are very kind of skeptical or hostile towards any kind of left. But the point that he made was that he senses a, he senses a need or a desire for class politics from these guys because they're getting shafted. There's not like, you know, they can't get a job. You know, this world that they're growing into is just has this kind of like, opportunities are really diminishing and like, and I guess I bring this up because like the time that you and I were just talking about the Obama years, you know, you know, I was really like big on Obama and you know, I was really like, you know, yelling at everybody. I could flag down that it was important we reelect him and that we, you know, that Romney doesn't make Obama a two term president. But I think like, I had very little, very little class, class consciousness at that time. Trump's election kind of began a radicalizing process.
• 45:58
  Speaker A: What is a radical? Like, I think I was telling somebody, I'm like, I guess I'd be considered antifa, you know, like antifascist.
• 46:07
  Speaker B: That always seems simple to me back in, you know. Yeah, yeah, the first Trump term a million years ago.
• 46:13
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's like, okay, maybe there's like a little bit more like, you know, sneaky ish and violence and stuff, but like, it's like antifa, anti fascist and now we're in fascism. So where's antifa? We need antifa. It's. It's so up. Like, oh, my God. And like, yeah, like I was saying about, like, the, the, the Trevor Project and the, the suicide hotline for lg.
• 46:44
  Speaker B: What is, what is, what is the Trevor Project? Can you.
• 46:47
  Speaker A: Oh, sorry. Yeah, the Trevor Project is like, it's a. Is it like an organization for LGBTQ people or specifically youth. Specifically youth. And so it provides support. I think it provides, it's nationwide, so it provides a lot of, like, emotional support normally. And it does have, like, I believe it has, like, chapters and different areas, like where you can, like, get housing and other types of resources.
• 47:17
  Speaker B: Healthcare.
• 47:18
  Speaker A: Yeah, I love the Trevor Project, everybody. Like, it's a, one of those. It's one of those organizations that everyone donates to eventually.
• 47:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, I'll have to. Yeah, we'll talk about the, with the, with our dollars or the kind of, you know, how to, how to allocate those few resources we have to kind of like, help people out. But you were saying that, yeah, the Trevor Project is on the chopping block because of the Trump administration. Right. And.
• 47:46
  Speaker A: Yeah, and. And when, When I heard that, I, I got like, very rageful. And, you know, I'm, I'm not somebody that gets rageful. Like, I get strategic. Strategic mad, I guess you could say. But I.
• 48:05
  Speaker B: Good, right?
• 48:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. But I got rageful because that essentially is saying that you want to kill LGBTQ youth by suicide, like in some backwards way. And it's so up. It's like, it's like a. It's like a backward back ass words way of like a young people LGBTQ holocaust in a way. And I was just, I was just beside myself. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, they really genuinely want these youth to kill themselves, like, are you kidding me? And so, like, unfortunately, I don't work with teens in my practice, but a lot of my colleagues work with teens and especially LGBTQ teens, and they're just finding out their identity luckily here when we're in, like, Washington. So it's pretty liberal, like, when it comes to, you know, gender identity. But yeah, just the blatant, like, we don't want to give them help, we'd rather have them die type situation just infuriated me. It's disgusting. It's absolutely disgusting. Especially for mental health professionals.
• 49:34
  Speaker B: This is a fight for human, Human dignity.
• 49:37
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 49:37
  Speaker B: You know, and I feel like, you know, like the earliest. The earliest stories from the Trump administration. I mean, it was, it was Tied to immigration. You know, ironically enough, it was, you know, the family separations at the border, you know, the kids in cages. I mean, the primary theme of Trump's first campaign was the wall.
• 49:56
  Speaker A: Exactly.
• 49:57
  Speaker B: And you know, from there, you know, you know, there was George Floyd, which was a big moment for. And you know, just the, the cascading police violence and then the response to it, you know, from leadership and you know, across parties, you know what I mean? And I feel like that is where I butt heads with well meaning liberals a lot of the time is that, like, when you understand the consensus about right wing issues between the leadership of the political parties that we have here in America, it's very disillusioning because I want a leadership or I want representatives that. Look at what you just described about the defunding the Trevor Project or this kind of concerted effort to kill trans people or. Yeah, yeah. And you want. Representatives are going to denounce that with their whole chest, do everything they can. That's the thing. And there's value even if you don't have the votes or whatever. You know, I mean, you know, you know, you use the bully pulpit and you just kind of, you throw your energy at that, you know what I mean? And you show your people that you're in the fight, you know, because it's the right thing to do. And when you see their behavior, you know, when it's not that, you know, that, well, I'm not, I'm not the people that they're representing. You know what I mean? It's. And I just feel like, yeah, this has just been kind of like a money versus people, you know, story. These last. So it's been Trump, then Biden and now Trump and then Biden and then now we're five months into Trump's second term. And yeah, something's got to give. And like, I just, yeah, I just feel like the reason we got together today is because, you know, there's LA has been under siege by ice, you know, and the Marines and the National Guard, the kidnappings, essentially. They've been kidnapping undocumented immigrants and then extrajudicially deporting them or holding them in places.
• 52:16
  Speaker A: And then here in Seattle is gonna, it's gonna happen as well.
• 52:20
  Speaker B: Is it already happening in Seattle?
• 52:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's happening in sort of smaller cities in Snohomish County. It's where I live. So Seattle's in King county, but I live in sort of like a little boonie, little boony town in the forest called Mukilteo. I've heard some ice raids over at like Mexican restaurants essentially, and I think in elementary school, but mainly restaurants.
• 52:50
  Speaker B: Do you ever go to Amigos Tacos on Artesia Boulevard?
• 52:53
  Speaker A: Of course, yeah. Mr. Garcia would take us every day.
• 52:56
  Speaker B: Oh yeah, I love that place. I still go. Yeah. And I was getting some food and then there's a TV that's playing like music videos, like Mexican music videos and stuff for like most of the day.
• 53:09
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 53:10
  Speaker B: And then as I was being served, Kirsty Noem comes on TV and she's just basically like, if you're undocumented, we don't want you here and you need to self deport if. Or else we're going to do it for you. And it was just like, just the shame, you know, at like that this is like, because I'm in a place obviously I'm in an environment that I consider to be my community. This is my neighborhood, these are my people, you know what I mean? It's just a restaurant, but like it matters to me. And I think we're seeing that like in the anger about what the Trump administration's doing. It's not a 50, 50 issue. This issue of like, Arya, are immigrants people or do immigrants belong here? It's not a 50, 50 issue, you know what I mean? And I think there's been a misconception that the hard right vision is more representative of the body politic than it really is. It would be great if we lived in a environment where there wasn't such misery and instability and like we're all walking around having to look over our shoulder. And this, you know, this is one of the arguments I try to make for, you know, why to be sympathetic of those a little bit lower on the ladder than you or very far down the ladder from you. You know what I mean? It's because whether we like it or not, you know what I mean? We live in a society and there is a, like certainly the right wing position is you just use the bombs on it, you use the cops on it, you use the jails on it, you know, and that is the program for how this all works is that, you know, there's a sorting of human beings into worthy and unworthy and then, you know, you use force against the unworthy. And I mean, I just feel like that is demonstrably not even. It's just obviously it's abhorrent on its face, but it's also doesn't work, you know what I mean? Like when Trump won this last election, what little consolation I Had for like minded people, you know, and we're all just pissed off about it, you know, is just like, look, you know, it's, it didn't work the last time. You know what I mean? The people who vote, I think more of them have goldfish memories than we would like, you know what I mean? And like. But it's not, this isn't gonna, this isn't gonna work. So that, that on a fundamental level, that's an opportunity, you know, for those who don't believe in that vision to kind of like come together and build something different.
• 55:52
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I think a lot of, like when you tie mental health into it, like, a lot of people don't understand the difference between folks who have less means as compared to folks who do have a lot of means there. They experience the same symptoms a lot of the time, like schizophrenia. One of my clients who has schizophrenia just won a pageant like Miss Auburn. The Auburn's a city in King county and she's off to go compete in Ms. Washington right now. And she's. Yeah, I know. I was so happy for, I'm so happy for her. She's amazing. And so like, you know, she still has, or had, she's on, of course she's on medication. She had, you know, the delusions, the voices, the, the visual hallucinations, the tactile ones that would make anybody very scared. And then, you know, she, she, she comes from a family of means, but she's still having the same symptoms as somebody who's on the street and out in downtown la who's seeing like, you know, ghosts and stuff like right in front of them and having a delusion that they're like Jesus Christ, you know, and, and I think that it's just so unfortunate that we can't get those lower socioeconomic status folks into mental health treatment because they're looked down upon or we just don't blatantly have any money to do it.
• 57:33
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I, I'm hoping that, you know, we'll need to wrap up soon, but I'm hoping that we can maybe even our, our next get together. We can dive more into trauma and kind of like your work, your experience with that and then your work surrounding it. But like those, those undeserving and those unworthy or those, you know, the people on the margins of society, you know what I mean? That cops are used against. They're suffering from the trauma of poverty, you know, which it manifests in like a lot of different ways. And would you be open to maybe doing like an episode that's maybe more. More specifically about your work with trauma and, like, you know, maybe some of the work you do in your profession.
• 58:14
  Speaker A: And I was actually thinking about my supervisor, but I don't know the ethics of that, so I have to ask her, because she's. She's like us, like, very much so. She's another social worker.
• 58:26
  Speaker B: The kind of overriding ethic. This is always going to be about social justice. You know what I mean? It's also social justice and its politics within a space where we're trying to get our hands around, can we call it dysfunction, you know, addiction, you know, mental illness, trauma, you know, and it's kind of just finding a way to bring those worlds together. The rule of thumb, you know, when it comes to making things is if it's. If it's something I myself would enjoy, I have to assume that there's others who would as well.
• 58:54
  Speaker A: That's a good confidence, and I think you get that confidence when you're in recovery for quite a while, at least I did.
• 59:01
  Speaker B: One thing I wanted to ask before we wrap up is, so we're like a year apart in terms of our length of sobriety. And, you know, the primary thing that I realized when I took my cake this last time was that my recovery or my sobriety this year finally feels as real to me as my drug life before.
• 59:24
  Speaker A: Wow, that's incredible.
• 59:26
  Speaker B: What do you think? How is it for you? Does it feel like this is all the way real now?
• 59:30
  Speaker A: Foreign? It's hard to explain because in the last couple of years, I've really dealt with my bipolar issues, and my sobriety is kind of like a secondary thing. But, like, if I think of, like, alcohol, I like, that makes me, I guess, proud of myself to be like, I haven't had a drink in eight years. Like, oh, my God. And, you know, I haven't abused pills. And eight years, it's. It's my new normal as compared to my old normal back when I was using and drinking. I don't see anything changing, really. Like, I don't see myself relapsing.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker B: Tom, who I brought up a couple of times now on the show, is. He says it's a policy. It's not something he decides about. It's just like, you know, and that. And that is for. For him, that is what has helped to keep that door shut, is just not recognizing it as a door. Yeah, this is my life.