Latest / Books4Guys / Hillary Frank on Wedlocked, Storytelling & the Art of Creating Great Podcasts

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Hillary Frank on Wedlocked, Storytelling & the Art of Creating Great Podcasts · Books4Guys

• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: But no.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, now we're good.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, Hillary, I am uh this is I've been looking forward to this conversation because I am talking with a real podcast OG today, uh, in yourself.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: As I've talked to people on this, on this podcast who have had their own podcasts, they've been on others, but no one quite like yourself who has been doing podcast and and radio for a lot longer than me.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's an it's a pleasure to have you on the Books for Guys podcast, Hillary.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a pleasure to be here.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you have a book, an audiobook coming out, and it's a little bit unique.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk a little bit because a lot of people that I have on this podcast have written books.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, it's about books.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's audiobooks involved, but yours is a little different because I haven't had anyone on who has different people voicing different characters throughout their story.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: And as I was reading into that, I was like, I haven't talked to literally any other author who's approached it that way with their books.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Even like the fiction books I've read.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a one-voice type of thing in a few of them.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, but again, you're an OG.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: We were even talking about podcasting.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: You do things that are like way higher level than I do when it comes to voice and editing and all of that good stuff.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: But before I get to your book, Hillary, for those who don't know a lot about you, and even myself, I've done a little bit of research and seen all the cool things you do.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: But how did you tell a little bit about your story?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, you've done radio, podcasting for a long time, storytelling.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I even the one that caught my eye, because I'm a sports fan, is you did a documentary with ESPN.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, but how did you get started in this?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I have like kind of a funny, weird origin story with this, which is that I really wanted to be on this American life.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is like in the late 90s.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and for those who don't know, it's a long time uh public radio show, now a podcast, but documentary stories.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't have any background in radio.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was fresh out of college.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so the host Ira Glass kind of said, uh, I guess on the website, if you have a story you want to uh pitch us, you know, we read everything.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, cool.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I sent some stuff and it got rejected.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then I decided, you know, I'm gonna record something and make like uh kind of like a fake this American life story and send it to them.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote, somehow I figured out that they had like a contributors list.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I emailed like the office, you know, an office administrator and said, I'm a writer and I want to know how you get on the contributors list.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the only thing that made me a writer, I wasn't published.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: The thing that made me a writer said I wrote stuff down, right?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And he took me at my word and put me on the list.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you got like this list like every month with the themes they were working on.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And they were one of the ones was Apocalypse.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a friend who was obsessed with the end of the world, but in like a secular way.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, like he went on my answering machine, the microcassette answering machine, recorded it.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then I like wrote a script, read my narration into a shiny red boom box, fed the little micro cassette tape in.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it sounded like a like a produced story, but you could hear all the little clicks and stuff.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: I FedExed it to Iroglass.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And a couple days later, I got a message on my answering machine from MyroGlass being like, How did you figure out how to do a story that sounds like ours?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Call me back.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And they tried to get the story on the show.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't work out for time reasons, but they did invite me to start being a contributor to the show.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was my my little way of working my way in.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then from there, I started freelancing for all kinds of public radio shows.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I was simultaneously writing um and publishing young adult novels.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have three of those.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then when my daughter um was born in 2010, I had a really rough childbirth and recovery and felt like all the stuff I was reading made me feel like I had already failed.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wanted to make like a podcast.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is like 2000, end of 2010.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there weren't really podcasting wasn't big, right?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I knew some people who were doing it, and it was like my way of keeping my foot in the door and still like getting work after becoming a mom and just like proving I still had chops and also kind of helping myself feel less alone by interviewing other people about their own surprising struggles in early parenthood.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And the show just took off.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: I uh, you know, I didn't do any marketing.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: I emailed like 300 people and asked them to pass it around and it really spread by word of mouth.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um eventually it was picked up by WNYC and then Stitcher, and you know, it won all kinds of awards and uh and has like people say it has changed their lives with parenthood.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: There's that's really cool, and there's a lot to unpack here because you you're opening up some things.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get my wife to like introduce to you in your podcast.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I know a lot of the stuff I was looking at.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: You like to speak on like women's health and a lot of that, and she's a personal trainer and she's all about that.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm like, okay, I need to give my wife your podcast and and just pass that along as well.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I was sitting here laughing too, because I want to ask you just like to go back even a little bit further.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: But the way you were talking about creating a story and sending it in, it just brought up a funny memory.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: I remember having like a cassette player and CD player, and I would like pretend I was on the radio too, and I'd be like at number five, and then I would record, put the CD in, and like try to make my own radio station.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I haven't thought about that in forever, but just hearing you describe your story, I was like, wow, I remember doing something like that as a kid, and it was so funny.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: But with you, did you like like I'm I'm thinking like junior high, high school, were you always interested in in wanting to be on the radio and wanting to talk to people?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or where did that like first spark of interest, where did that come from?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was terribly shy.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: I it was very hard for me to talk to strangers, even like making phone calls for I don't know, like customer support of something when I mean not when I was in middle school, but when I when I was a little older, like I found that difficult.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: And like I had friends and stuff who who I could talk to.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: I had to really know somebody though to feel like I could open up to them.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I did have a cassette recorder that was like my pride and joy when I got it when I think I was like five or six years old.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I would like, you know, talk into it.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: I would talk to the folks, you know, be like, folks, here's what's happening, here's what's happening now.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Or like I would do weird like gymnastics routines and like, you know, talk about like to tell everyone what I was doing.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And like narrate my life.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I didn't think about it in terms of like radio until I heard this American life and I heard just this whole new way of like telling stories.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I did like writing stories and I thought, oh, like maybe I could do this.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it was appealing in that like it felt like it would give me a reason to have to like to force myself to talk to people like exposure therapy, you know, to because I I was really curious about people, but like if you um are putting yourself in a position where like you're getting paid to call people up and ask them questions, like it was it was uh like a big change for me.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, and I can imagine how nerve-wracking that is because even me, like I consider myself a people person, but starting this podcast, I was so nervous because I was like, I like talking to people, but like how do I do this?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, like how do I come off curious and and not like overstudy?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's just so many things to it.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think people, I don't think people realize like there is a craft to interviewing and talking and making it smooth.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I it's funny, I can, and you've probably done the same thing.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I've gone back and listened to like my first three to ten episodes, and I'm like, oh my gosh, like what was I doing?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then it gets a little bit smoother and a little bit smoother, and the confidence grows as you continue to do it.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and even as you talk to to people that are bigger names, you know, or followings, you find yourself a lot more comfortable with those people or just the stories in general.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And but it's still so cool to hear your progression in that, and like I was like super nervous and and not really great with people, but there was this interest somewhere behind there, and just kind of how you've got yourself out of the box to get it all done because now you've done so many cool things.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, stories with so many different brands and people and and writing, and I don't know.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I guess I'm curious now, like when you look back over the things you've done, and again, I want to get to your book too, because this is like the the the next big thing that's coming out for you.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: But what are some I don't know, what are some conversations or stories that you've put together that maybe were the most challenging for you?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, I'm thinking of like some of the documentary stuff and and like some of the stories that maybe I'm trying to ask this in the right way, of they were kind of unexpectedly challenging, or maybe they you at the end of it you thought differently than the beginning of it because you uncovered details or learned something new.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Just what were some of your most favorite interviews to have and stories to put together?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I know you're interested in sports, so I'll talk about the 30 for 30 documentary I worked on.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I was the story editor and host of this documentary about it's called the the six it's called Six Who Sat, um, because it's about the six women who turned the New York Marathon co-ed.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, and this is like this is in the 70s.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: That not that long ago.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, like as a women who used to not be able to run it.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, correct.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: For those that don't know.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: And other marathons as well.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: The kind of like doctors at the time would tell women that they couldn't run long distance because their uteruses would fall out.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and and you know, I think there were women who were running long distance and knew that that wasn't happening, right?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: So there was this whole like concerted effort to to get the rules changed in the New York, the New York Marathon was the first one to change the rules.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so the documentary is about how they did it, but what was challenging is that the two main people in the story, one of them had passed away and the other one had dementia.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so she could tell the story um in bits, but she couldn't be like our main voice.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so the challenge was, you know, I worked with producers who did the work of like figuring out who the other voices needed to be.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then how did we construct the story with um without those two key people and just these other kind of more peripheral people?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that was interesting, but it's like it's just such a wild story, so many ups and downs and lots of misogyny.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one of my favorites.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then um there's a series that has run on the longest, shortest time that I think is maybe what the longest, shortest time is most known for.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's And that's your podcast.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be a good one.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's my podcast, the longest shortest time.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, maybe I didn't name it before.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's called the series is called The Accidental Gay Parents.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's about this couple who very early in their relationship, when they're in their 20s, still like going out and having fun, overnight they become parents because they um take in the niece and nephew of one of the partners and um eventually adopt them.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then because one the other partner is trans and has a uterus, he decided he he wanted to have a biological child as well.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: But so that's Tristan.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: But Biff, his husband, was not into the idea.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so you follow them like over six episodes, like this this unfolds, you know, over years of Tristan finally convincing Biff that they do get pregnant, sadly, there's a miscarriage, and then there is like a baby at the end of this.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, I just thought it was cool that it wasn't a sensationalist story of like pregnant man.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, you know, this very relatable story of adoption and then like pregnancy, pregnancy loss, which so many people go through, and then the challenges of having a newborn.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: So all through the lens of, you know, a trans man.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, interesting.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: As you, I'm kinda I want you to put your producer hat on for a second because this is something I'm always curious about.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you see, when you see a great show or you listen to a great podcast series, I'm always like, okay, I there's no way I could ever do that.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like my create my creative brain just doesn't know how to like piece that together and and think of things just in that arts sort of way to produce a great product.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: When you're putting something together and producing it, just for those of us who are not very creative, what does it look like?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because do you, when you're thinking through it, are you thinking like, okay, I have this, this, this, and this, and you get all the pieces together and then you then you come at it and try to organize it and put the puzzle together?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you have like a we're gonna start here and we're gonna end here?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Just like, how do you take all of this information and put it into something that comes out to a finished product to where everyone's like, Whoa, that was awesome.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say it's like different every time.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing that I always start with is what is surprising about this story and why should I care?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if I don't think I have good answers to those things, then usually usually I will not pursue the story.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want it to be something that either is like a story, like plot-wise, that I've never heard before, or that the takeaway is really surprising and makes me see the world a little bit differently.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's sort of how I think about it.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then so with my podcast, The Longest Shortest Time, a lot of times, especially in the early days, people were coming to me with their stories.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, we would go through and and pick out like which are the ones that are really grabbing us, and then decide how are we gonna treat what what's the treatment for this?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is it, you know, kind of a a straight up interview?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is it an an interview?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: We call it like a zhuzhed up interview, like with a little bit of narration.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Does it need a lot of narration, like a lot of writing to for it to make sense?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then if it's a series, then you really have to like be thinking as in in a in a big arc.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like a lot of patience is involved in these processes.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's why I'm not as creative, because I just don't have the patience, or I tell myself I don't.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I just think things like that are so impressive to me, especially now that I've like learned how to do a little bit of editing and you know, learn how to post.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just when I hear something, a story put together, or or a 30 for 30.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've watched like probably every ESPN 30 for 30.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, oh my gosh, the amount of work that goes into this to come out with this product is just incredible.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, how long did it take?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like how much, how many pieces of paper are laying around from just writing notes and and all of that?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but I think you obviously have a gift for it, and I'm sure like over time you've found certain processes are you know better than others, and you've gotten really fine-tuned with it, but uh still nonetheless, it sounds like every project is different, so you have to take a different approach and and get everything organized from the beginning every time.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: So there's always a new challenge, which I'm assuming keeps things fresh and interesting.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I'll say also one common challenge for for anyone doing interviews is that not everyone is naturally a great talker or dynamic talker or knows how to tell their story in order, you know, or maybe someone's very jargony.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is something I've had to learn how to do.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's something I teach also.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like how it's called how to get great tape and what to do if it's dead on arrival.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so like I think that that's where writing comes in handy is that you can use just the most uh compelling clips, or sometimes I'll just take, you know, the best 10 minutes of a few interviews and put them together in like a mixtape kind of episode.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that is something that is always a challenge.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, and it's interesting.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I it that's what I was, you know, looking through your background.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, you've done so many different things.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And uh even like this audio book, I want to get to it, Wedlocked.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's a little bit different than producing a podcast some sort of way, you know.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: So there's different challenges and different things you have to think about.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: So your book, Wedlocked, it's coming out in October.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we're in Rethium September.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's coming out in October.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: What day will it be released?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: October 20th.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: October 20th, which is today because I'm gonna release this podcast on October 20th.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're listening right now, the book is out.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Go get it and uh and and listen and and obviously give Hilary your feedback and let her know what you think.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: But talk a little bit about it.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Where did this idea come from?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: What sparked this work for you?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and just give us kind of a high-level overview without giving us too much.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, because it's a thriller.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't want no, I don't want to give spoilers.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: But so Wedlocked is an original audiobook.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: You can only get it in audio.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can get it wherever you get audiobooks, though.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a story of a fitness instructor, an online fitness instructor.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she's like the most popular instructor on this app called Uplift.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the idea behind Uplift is that they teach you how to lift weights, but they also like help you get a smile on your face.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: They lift you up.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so Zara is married to Ezie, who is the founder and owner of Uplift.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And when the book starts, Zara is kind of on the precipice of her 40th birthday, and she really wants to have a baby.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: And she's been kind of trying to have this conversation with Ezie for a very long time, and he's always putting it off, shutting down the conversation.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, so we see them, you know, she tries to have this conversation again, and he basically tells her, you know, your your body, your fitness is our livelihood.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to put this off as long as I can.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, she kind of she sees that as unfair and misogynistic, right?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like, why wouldn't she be able to keep doing her job after having a baby?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: So they they're they're um having marital problems.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: But then Zara starts to get all of these weird health issues, like strange stuff starts happening to her.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: She gets like a ringing in her ears, she gets dizzy, eventually blood starts leaking out of one of her eyes.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: But the strange thing is that through all of it, she is like outrageously happy.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: She's never been so happy, and she starts to forget about this idea of having a baby and thinking maybe she doesn't need to have a baby.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: But then like an old flame comes into her life and makes her question like, what is actually going on here?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, sounds good.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm excited.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Hillary, why did you decide to, and I don't know what your future plans for, but why only an audiobook at this time?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I had done a previous project with McMillan Audio.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's like an adaptation of a Tegan and Sarah graphic novel about their junior high experience.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was working with them and they told me that they were launching this whole like audio originals department, and they asked if I had any ideas for something original.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And wedlocked was an idea that I had been batting around and, you know, not really sure what the right format for it was.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I was thinking about audio, I guess because I work in audio, but also like this idea of having an online fitness instructor as your protagonist.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much opportunity to like hear her in action, to hear her.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: So when when she's teaching classes, you hear her coming through the phone.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's an effect that makes it sound like she's coming through the phone.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: When she's she's an influencer, she and her husband are influencers.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: So when they're live streaming their lives, which they do frequently, you hear them coming through the phone.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then, like, whenever people are texting, you hear that voice coming, like that's a different actor playing the character.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's very cool.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: I I think this is really awesome because obviously, like audiobooks have have just become bigger and bigger over the years.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: I have so many friends that and it's funny.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still, admittedly, trying to get on the audiobook train.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a real like physical book reader or Kindle.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I have other friends that'll be like, Well, I read 60 books this year.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, how?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: How did you read 60 books?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like at the gym while I'm driving.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I gotta get into that more.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Especially, I think it's a lot easier for me personally.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Fiction books are great to listen to.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think thrillers are great because they're so propulsive.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because I anytime I listen to like podcasts too that are like a story of thrill, like I'm locked in.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: But if I try to listen, and I think I messed up by trying to listen to a non-fiction book one time, and I was like, I just can't focus enough to take in what it's giving me.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: But anything that is entertaining, I think it's perfect.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And this book sounds like a perfect audiobook to keep me locked in and others.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have visions for it to because I'm as you're talking to him, like, oh, that sounds like a great Netflix show too.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, is do you if it happens, cool?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: If it doesn't, whatever, but I mean, I would love that.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think I think it would be it would translate really well to the screen.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of visual stuff that uh, you know, comes through in description and and audio.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think, you know, I was really inspired by Get Out and Promising Young Woman.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it, you know, it's sort of like it's a thriller with kind of a social message to it.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I mean, I would love that if it happened.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very cool.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm excited to listen to it and excited to share it with everyone, you know, through our platform and and to get that out there.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: So excited to hear what others think.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I will listen to it and make sure I have it and uh and let you know what I think.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hillary, I've got one more question for you.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I ask everyone this that comes on the podcast.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's more of just a book question, you know, just just it's you could answer this differently given on the year or whatever.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm always curious to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally, and what's a book or two you love to recommend to others?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I almost think like these would be the same thing, but um I really love Pet by Katherine Chidgey.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing her last name correctly, but this is a thriller about a girl and like an adolescent girl, and she becomes obsessed with her school teacher who may or may not be evil.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like it I found it very moving.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think I actually just recommended it to my husband because he wanted something kind of fun to read when we were on vacation.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so I think I think this is one like for anybody who likes a good thriller, but it's also very realistic.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then like along those same lines, I think the other black girl is also like a thriller that is very propulsive and really also was a very um big influence on Wedlocked.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then, okay, here's here's an here's one I will recommend.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um Big Swiss by Jen Began is uh so it's about this is also I recommend this as an audiobook.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: You can you can read it too, but I thought it was fantastic as an audiobook because it's about a woman who um is an assistant to a sex therapist.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so she is transcribing all of his sessions, and you know, she doesn't know who the people are, but she can hear their voices and she starts to recognize their voices around town.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so like the plot thickens, and um there are actors who play the different uh characters when you're hearing them coming through the tape.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sweet.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I uh great recommendations because both my wife and I, we love thrillers and mysteries and stuff like that.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I think all of those are books that we both can read.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and again, I want to have her introduced to your podcast as well.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm so I'm so just proud to have you on this podcast, Hillary.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think your work is is it's just extremely cool.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: As someone who's pretty new to this and then just like learning more about it, and I learned more and more of just like things I've appreciated over time, but I just didn't really know what went into it or or how the process worked, and then just seeing some of the projects you've worked on, and then excited to have a platform to share your audiobook on.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's just I'm very honored and I really appreciate you taking the time to do this because this has been really fun.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm honored to be here.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks, Hillary.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: So this episode is out today.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Wedlocked is out today, so give it a listen, download.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: We'll make sure uh that I put links in the show notes so you can go find it and uh obviously reach out to Hillary.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: We'll make sure there's links there so you can go find her and let her know what you think.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: But no, wishing you tons of success with this, Hillary, and can't wait to see all your future projects now that we've been able to get introduced and hang out for a little bit.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh just keep doing all these cool things, and I'm excited to follow along.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much, Chris.