Latest / IMI Podcasts / #6: Micha-Rose Emmett - Motherhood, IM in Africa, Regulating IM

Transcript

#6: Micha-Rose Emmett - Motherhood, IM in Africa, Regulating IM · IMI Podcasts

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7 p.m.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: in Dubai, 3 p.m.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: in Lisbon, 11 a.m.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: in St.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Kitts.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to a new episode of the Mobility Standard, the podcast where we dissect current events, trends, and crucial questions related to investment migration.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Christian Neste, editor of Investment Migration Insider, and with me in today's episode I have only one of my co-hosts, Ahmad Abbas, as our other co-host, Rogelio the Rock Cáceres, was unavailable.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Our guest this week was Micah Rose Emmett, longtime CEO of CS Global Partners.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: We started off on a personal level by asking questions aimed at telling us more about who Micah Rose is.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: She answered questions about how she got started in investment migration and the road to where she is today.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: We discussed some of the issues closest to Micah's heart, like global citizenship, freedom, female empowerment, and so on.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: She also talked about what it was like becoming a mother while being the CEO of a major company and how she handled that transition.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Micah has been in investment migration for 15 years already, and we wanted to hear if this opportunity for longitudinal observation of the market had led her to draw any conclusions at all about what macro trends characterize the current chapter of investment migration history and what's different in the market now compared to in previous chapters.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Born and raised in Namibia and commercially active in Africa for a long time, Micah understands the continent better than most in this business.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: We wanted to take advantage of that to raise some of the questions we have about investment migration in Africa.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: What's next for investment migration in Africa?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Is it really the next big market for investment migration or will it remain a continent that just has great potential?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: We questioned Micah about how we might promote the maturation of the investment migration market.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Ours is still a relatively immature line of business, it's low barriers to entry, it's mostly unregulated, and it isn't particularly capital intensive.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's no shortage of practitioners who cut corners, tell half-truths, to close a deal.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Are there any industries that are similar to but ahead of investment migration that we could use as a model or template for industry development?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: How has Micah's own company changed as a consequence of the pandemic?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: What lessons did the pandemic teach her and her colleagues?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: What pandemic impacts, negative and positive, drove organizational changes?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Finally, Micah answered a number of questions from the audience, including whether she will consider entering Turkey's TIP market, what junior career paths are available for those who want to get a start in the investment migration business, and whether dropping company margins and lowered program prices will squeeze companies out of the industry.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: All of that and much more in today's episode.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: We've got a lot of things to talk about today.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: I prepared some questions.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: We have some questions from the audience.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: But I want to start off just by talking a little bit about you personally, uh sort of so the audience can get to know who Michael Rose is.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: So why don't you tell us, you know, where did you start and how did you end up in investment migration to begin with?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, um, thank you very much for having me on your show.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've been listening to your various sessions and they're great.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a nice refresher to just have a kind of casual conversation about the industry.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh a little bit about me.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um I guess I started as a young girl from a country that only gained independence um in 1990.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: So going from having one citizenship, I suddenly had two when Namibia gained its independence.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that sort of um along with my you know desire for justice and freedom sparked my interest or fueled my interest to going to law and business.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um love traveling, you know, love meeting new cultures, enjoy sort of understanding the world in you know the greater context.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a natural fit for this industry.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, I really ended up in this industry about 15 years ago when I was introduced um to St.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Kitts and Nevis.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'd never heard of it before.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um so funny because it sort of became my career, didn't it?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: But um, one of the investors were applying for um citizenship there, and I was an in-house legal counsel at the time.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I assisted um the individual and their family to gain citizenship by investment, and I thought it was just such a fabulous idea.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's where where it all started.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: What I wanted to ask you just just to get to know you um on a on a more personal level, like what are three issues?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: Can you mention three issues that you would say are close to your heart?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Three sort of uh that they could be ideological or or anything of that nature, but three issues that mean a lot to you and that kind of tell us something about who you are.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, before I give you those three, I I will say this.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm very much driven by a passion for something.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so whatever I do, um you know, I need to really feel that I'm engaged, I'm fulfilled, and um, it really is part of you know what's important to me.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think that was important in sort of growing in this industry as well.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And my first um point of philosophical, I suppose, point would be um equality and freedom.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I really truly subscribe to the idea of freedom.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um the other two things that um really do spark my interest or that I'm quite passionate about would be obviously female empowerment.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think lately I've been speaking about it more often in the industry because this is a very male-dominated industry.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: But beyond that, um the discussion about you know gender equality is quite important, um, especially with what's happening with the pandemic.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of women have had to give up their jobs, and and that has set us back economically.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that's a hugely important issue for me.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the third thing is preservation of our planet.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, when I say preservation of our planet, I'm you know encompassing everything about um the you know the dialogues that are going on about climate change, etc.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's so much larger than that.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think having recently become a mother, it's focused my mindset on how important it is that we actually really do take care of the planet.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I don't know about you, but I'm not sure I'm gonna be getting a seat on virgin um virgin's you know space expedition soon.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So um I have to look after this planet for the next generation, don't I?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's true.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: But so two things in what you said that I want to go more into.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: So the the first one you say is it's it's a male-dominated industry, and I want to go deeper into that.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and also just before we go there, uh, you said you've recently become a mother.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that's first of all, congratulations.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what is there any is there any more uh worthy worthy endeavor than bearing children into this world?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: I doubt it, very few.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: You said you said that it changed something in you.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: Becoming a mother kind of changed your perspective on some things.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what specifically are we talking about here?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: Did it change your perspective on on your work?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely, and certainly.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: I um, you know, being very kind of career-driven, very focused on building CS Global Partners, uh, which I suppose in some ways was my baby, um, it's it's quite different when you, you know, sort of do become a mother.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, it's just it has changed my mindset.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also sharpened my mind um with respect to my clients who do have families and getting a much clearer understanding of why you know families need this.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I almost feel like it's irresponsible as parents to not look at options um for our children in terms of second citizenship because the world is changing so quickly.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And if we don't have those options, um, you know, we're actually sort of setting back our children's opportunities.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I think from that perspective, um from a you know, invest immigration point of view, it's it's been important.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: But just generally having children, and I'm sure that's on your cards, Christian, at some point, but um, it is life-changing, and really there is no more important job than I think being a mum.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: So when you knew that you were going to become a mom, you presumably you were in the midst of running CS Global.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: How did you manage?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've you've been you took some time off from work um uh when your child was born, and then now you are back.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: How did you sort of manage that transition?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I was in the um lucky position that I could take a lot of time off, and I'm really grateful for that.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I'd had everything set up in a way that um it could sort of operate and move along without me.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but certainly coming back and juggling the responsibility of being, you know, a mum and you know being the CEO of a large citizenship by investment company has been a challenge.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it certainly has changed my way of looking at how we we deal with um parenting in work.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: I want to change gears a little bit.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: I want to talk about macro trends.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um Maika, you've been in this business, you said 15 years, that's longer than me and Ahmad put together.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you've witnessed how unexpected global events can shift the market.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Caribbean CIP market expanded very, very rapidly after the 08 global financial crisis.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Then once again, after the Arab Spring in 2011, 2012, then in Europe, the 2010-2013 sovereign debt crises in Spain, Portugal, and Greece gave birth to what had become household golden visas on that continent and southern Europe.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: And now there's the the pandemic, probably the biggest black swan event since at least the fall of the Berlin Wall, maybe even bigger.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that we're seeing is that first world first world investors are now getting an appetite for investment migration.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so I wanted to know how you would characterize this particular chapter in investment migration's history.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: The chapter that we're in right now, that probably with the benefit of hindsight a few years hence, we'll be able to be able to characterize it in a in a particular way.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: But since we are in it right now, sometimes it can be difficult to identify the trend.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh often that's only uh possible uh post hoc, so to speak.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: So what how would you characterize this current chapter of investment migration's history?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I was chatting um to a colleague earlier, and I was saying, you know, I don't think it's necessarily a new chapter.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the pandemic, like all other events that you've mentioned, um, is about instability and instability fuels the industry and its growth.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think what it has led to is just maybe a new set of interest um from clients in what we would call developed countries looking at this.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And why is the reason that you know I think it's sharpened people's minds as to um the the decision that they need to make as an individual versus um a collective.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I think before um you know uh there was uh this idea of looking at you know being quite quite patriotic about the country you come from and you know where you uh originate from.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the way that governments have handled this pandemic, and that's governments across the globe, you know, not developing and developed countries, it's it's really focused people's minds on uh individuals' minds on seeking alternatives.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I've I've seen how frustrated friends, family, and clients have been with where we are.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's going to be the the change.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but is it a new chapter?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I say new chapter in the sense that I think it's a uh a watershed moment when individuals from countries that historically have have not really been interested in investment migration, have not really needed investment migration.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: They're getting their first taste of what it's like for everybody else, right, in the global south.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um and as you point out, many have been very disillusioned, I imagine.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: I I count myself among them, uh, as to the government's various governments' handling of the pandemic, the the speed with which our liberties have been taken away from us uh very very brutally and on often very thin security pretexts.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, freedom is always taken away on a security pretext, I think.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's kind of one of the repetitive patterns of history.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so so yeah, I I think uh you're right that it's it's opened a lot of people's eyes.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: I've made the argument in the past on a number of occasions that investment migration is what's called an anti-fragile business.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: So anti-fragile is the um, yeah, you know this, uh Micah, but for the listeners who maybe aren't familiar with the term, uh it was popularized by Nicholas Nassim Taleb, or is it Nasim Nicholas?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it essentially means that you're you're not merely robust in the face of turbulence uh and instability, but you are actually thriving on it.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that we are, you know, it sounds almost a little perverse, but we do benefit when things go wrong.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, our industry does benefit when things go wrong in different parts of the world, whether it's financial crises or wars or political persecution.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and you mentioned something, Micah, that I found very interesting and that resonates with me, that that people in the past uh and and still uh sort of have their identities wrapped up with their nationalities, and that that's changing a little bit now.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, so we have always you know thought of ourselves as members of a particular national group, and that is part of who we are, and it says something about us, but maybe do you think that we are kind of moving away from that a little bit, that people are starting to consider themselves more as individuals in in the world rather than members of particular national groups?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, Christian.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think actually that's where the conversation really is at.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, in terms of the industry, sure, we've we've got this growing interest, but more specifically and and and to a larger um perspective, I guess, a wider perspective on this is that we are changing the way we think about where we belong and who we are.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and sadly, this pandemic has caused us to think you know more as a single unit rather than um as a collective country because you know, community is so important.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: But what it does, and something that does drive me, and I find it quite interesting.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's important for us in this industry, and I think just generally as concerned citizens, is to maybe look at being better global citizens.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: So um taking that you know individual perspective of looking after our families and our personal needs is also to extend that because people in this industry are um and people who come and invest um are wealthy enough.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a responsibility on those individuals to be better global citizens.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: And what does that mean?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think being a better global citizen is taking account of the various issues that exist in the world right now.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, you know, my my bugbear is um gender equality and you know climate change, for example.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um but there's various aspects uh of the world that need taken care of, and I think it's really brought to light with this pandemic.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: So um, I mean, in a roundabout way, uh we need to be more responsible global citizens.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um I want to talk about Africa, partly because you're from there, you live there, you have um you know your ear to the ground, you understand that market.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh not not to say that it's one market, obviously it's a very heterogeneous group of countries, but one of the reasons I think it's important to discuss it is because it what I've observed in the last year, year and a half is that so many companies in this industry are sort of betting on Africa.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not sure whether that's a bet that makes sense in my book.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so obviously the need for RCBI solutions on that continent is very high because they have very poor travel and and and settlement freedoms, but purchasing power is also very, very low.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's the lowest out of all the continents, and only half a percent of all the millionaires worldwide live in Africa.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then you might say, yeah, but you know, it's a it's a market that has potential, it's a growing market.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, but actually the the um millionaire population, the high net worth individual population in Africa is growing at a slower rate than uh even Europe.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh what I'm wondering is since you know the continent well, you know, what's what's next for investment migration in Africa?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Is the market about to explode or will it remain a continent that always just has great potential?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and your answer will be relevant to all those investment migration firms that are considering or are in the midst of expanding into Africa.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think your perspective is spot on in that the reality about Africa is yes, it's very large.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there are many countries, and I think what a lot of people in industry do is they look at Africa as a whole, which you can't do.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a myriad of cultures and languages and um way of doing business.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So for starters, um, you cannot paint Africa with one brush.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: You really need to look at it, you know, whether it's North Africa separately to West Africa, to East Africa, to Southern Africa, and then you've got Central Africa.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, start with that, and then you break those regions down by language, um, by culture, by um the amount of you know, wealth in those countries, because there are still a significant number of countries in Africa that just aren't interesting at all for this industry.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I don't think it's the next hotspot.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there is a potential in certain hubs, um, and they're hubs we've we've been looking at for for years.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Nigeria has always been sort of a quite a hotspot for um, you know, clients uh uh for this industry.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um South Africa, I think, is growing because of the unrest there.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, but the way we approach it um also needs to be sensible.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in South Africa alone, you've got potentially five different client groups that all have a different perspective or different need or different pain point.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: So certainly there are enough products out there in the citizenship and residence market to provide a solution to them.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it's not an easy that you know, Africa is not an easy market to pursue.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I would take it one region at a time if I was going to, if you know, if I was in the investor migration industry, as starting out and trying to get into the market.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Having said that, though, we've seen recently we've just seen a 72% increase in queries from North Africa.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that is something um to say.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then South Africa as well, you know, with what's happening there, sadly um it has focused people's minds on not necessarily just residents, but actually taking citizenship options.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: You said that Africa is uh a difficult market in which to operate.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um where are the regions of Africa where you and your business have have had some success?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: And and where have you can you give us maybe some examples of where you've attempted to?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: penetrate the market but but haven't been unsuccessful uh have been unsuccessful and the reasons uh why it didn't pan out sure um in terms of success we've we've had a lot of success in you know north africa west africa um uh some of the east african countries uh certainly south africa as i said is a growing um area of interest um i think uh we've been quite cautious about the countries we do enter and we've done our research in advance so luckily um to date we've been lucky that we haven't had any uh problems um or you know have gone into any markets that haven't worked out but uh the one thing I will say is that uh particularly citizenship by investment is a very new concept uh for a lot of the African um market so there's a huge awareness that needs to take place there's a huge education that needs to take place and I think this is one of the main reasons why it's not going to be the hot next hot spot because we actually need to get um potential clients to understand what it is that we're actually offering them.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other issue is obviously you know anti-money laundering issues that we have you really need to um check who your clients are so yeah that's that's something that's a red flag that I would tell other people in industry to take note of.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of peps.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Mike if I can refocus a bit on what's going on in South Africa because the unrest is reaching I mean it's it's sad how how quickly uh things are going to hell honestly over there.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: And what I want to talk about is because you're extremely close and you know what's going on do you think uh RC BI firms can capitalize on this like Christian said we're a pragmatic group uh and this kind of stuff actually benefits the industry but what happened in Hong Kong for example a while back what happened in Kurdistan RC BY firms didn't really capitalize on them as they should have and in this case uh you say South Africa may be a good market and I think this is the best time to prove that but how do you think we should approach that as an industry?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because you said awareness is not that high and this is time sensitive.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know people are currently thinking about solutions like RCBI.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: How should firms approach the market and the potential clients so awareness in terms of immigration in South Africa is very high.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: South Africa is a country where people have been you know emigrating for decades for various reasons.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: But citizenship by investment specifically is quite a new concept um in that I think the countries that offer citizenship by investment um South Africans aren't that familiar with.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um however having said that I think as you correctly stated now is the time to capitalize on it in that we need to offer solutions of safety and security to the individuals there.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: We were chatting, you know we have a team in South Africa now as well and even though we all have alternative citizenships there was a conversation about how do we get out when things get really bad.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it comes back down to this idea of an insurance policy.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think if we can explain and and make the audience understand the importance of of citizenship being an insurance policy I think it'll resonate and now is the time I mean people people are genuinely scared and worried and it's it's devastating what's happening in South Africa right now.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely and unfortunately you know Christian as you said earlier this is the nature of our business yeah absolutely it is and not to say that we should go around fomenting troubles around the world to to drum up more business of course there I guess there is a situation of moral hazard there.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of moral hazard room and doom I mean we offer solutions we're not like you know capitalizing on it like weapon weapon manufacturers or anything we can we're not we're not we're not the broad problem yeah right you you are right and I often say to clients um you know take this option now because you never know what's going to happen.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you tell stories of how yes you feel safe and uh safe in your country right now, but you don't know what's going to change tomorrow.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And we're certainly not you know asking you to get up and move but what what we're saying is you know have that insurance policy in your back pocket.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: You never know when when things can change.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I recommend people to take the solution before the issues arise.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately a lot of people tend to only realize it once the issue has arisen yeah it's uh what David Lesperance refers to as buying home insurance after the fire has started right uh yeah that's never a good idea and so but but when we talk about um you you mentioned earlier how we need to be more responsible global citizens.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to talk about being responsible global citizenship companies.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: There's obviously been a lot of talk in recent years about you know the need for the industry to uh have a maybe a more rigid regulatory structure whether that's you know something that's brought about through private initiatives or government regulation.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so you know investment migration is still a relatively immature line of business.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's a young industry it has low barriers to entry it isn't very regulated and it's not particularly capital intensive you need a laptop and a and a kitchen table to to run a global CIP company these days.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no shortage of practitioners who cut corners or maybe tell half truths to close a deal um sort of a very salesmanlike approach in a lot of companies and this is a problem for the vast uh ethical majority of practitioners in the industry so I'm wondering Micah if you think that there are any industries that are similar to but ahead of investment migration that we could use as a model or a template for industry development maybe an industry that has had to overcome similar obstacles as investment migration in the past so there's there's a lot in what you said um I think before I sort of go into some examples I agree with you that we we need to look at the regulation of the industry because there are a lot of you know ethical firms but then you know what I like to term them as second car um secondhand car salesmen we need to have um more trying to find the right words yeah you so just just to clarify my God might want to redo that one yeah just to clarify you say you agree you say you agree with me that we need to have more regulation I'm not necessarily saying that my mind isn't made up on the topic uh regulation in my book very often tends to benefit um a smaller number of large incumbent companies who can afford to um comply compliance is not cheap and so you need certain economies of scale to even have a compliance department and and very often we see that we've seen this in banking over the last few decades.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: There's regulatory capture from the industry the big companies in the industry that's oh we we want our own industry to be regulated please regulate us saying that knowing that only uh the few big ones will be able to um actually afford to to comply and I'm worried that that'll also happen in in our industry and and every time I see uh calls for government regulation of the industry it tends to come from um the the bigger companies with the bigger war chests so just to clarify I'm not necessarily saying that we should have more regulation but I am saying that we need to find some sort of solution for these cowboys that are messing up the reputations of all the rest of us.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: 100% and I agree with you I don't think overregulating industry is the right way to go because what happens and we've seen it in in other industries um so one of the things I was going to talk about was the hedge fund industry that you know over the last um seven decades we saw no regulation to then some regulation then self-regulation and that still didn't work you know it took the G20 to come together and then put international regulation in place.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: But my issue is that um with legislators they tend to legislate what they understand and they miss the commercial element of it.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: So by overregulating um the industry you're putting up the barrier so high that as you correctly said Christian you know the big firms with the big war chests can manage.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: But what you're doing is you're actually the bad actors in the industry are still going to find the loopholes because we haven't managed to effectively close those loopholes.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we're not trying to regulate um more to get the good guys to stay in line because they are practicing with integrity and within the ethical lines.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's what we need to do is to lift the barrier high enough that everybody in the industry sort of follows the rules and it's a very fine balance.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: And because you know you've got sovereign states dealing with citizenship because it's quite difficult to regulate globally the industry it is a very big issue we have the self-regulation that's happening at the moment I don't think works.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a great gesture and certainly I think the work that that is being done is useful.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of the bigger picture and specifically region specific Middle East Russia China how do we regulate and get everyone on the same page and something needs to be done but I I don't 100% have the answer as yet it's a tricky question.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody that I know has been able to give me a very convincing answer yet.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: And of course one thing that we need to keep in mind is that even when you do have significant regulation very clear regulation it's not always enforced right so yes we cannot we cannot globally enforce regulation but on an individual country level you could.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: But what we've seen in a number of countries that have citizenship by investment programs especially those that are uh have a significant real estate component is that um there are people who are clearly flouting the rules and the CIU may even be perfectly aware of it and still not do anything about it.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: So so just having regulation isn't necessarily a guarantee that um that we'll be able to prevent mischief.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: If I may offer some commentary here because um I've actually seen cases where investors come in and consultants give them the investment the only investment option they have whether they call it financing, exclusive whatever they want and they actually find a way to paint it as the best available option to them and they give them some legal background to it.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Investors do some research but at the end of the day uh they're coming to an RCBI firm with a big brand big name and they trust these people.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: So although I do agree that we may have to regulate down the line I I will say that without the government doing its job correctly I don't think it's gonna be you know of any use because remember Christian once we were talking about Malta they had a financing option for the bonds and we released an article regarding that they called you and you gave them an ultimatum.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: You told them either stand behind it and say yeah financing is legal or just outright ban it.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And by the that you'll fix the problem.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah there there are there are lots of instances of that happening in this industry where you have uh you know solutions that are available unofficially um and I think that either they they should be officially available or they should not be but the I don't think that the it's correct to to have sort of a um a gray area there.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: I I think that this industry is I mean it it has too many gray areas already there are too many gray areas.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah I mean sunlight is the best disinfectant there lies in the problem there's so many stakeholders in a transaction if you think about it um and you know if we don't get everyone on board and everyone in engaged in finding the solution um getting regulation is going to be very difficult uh because you do need the government on board and the investors and the the lawyers and the real estate developers etc etc um so it's well I don't know if you remember I don't know if you remember this because we haven't heard from them since before the pandemic but uh in the Caribbean they set up a citizenship by investment program association um which was sort of an attempt between the five countries in the Caribbean to coordinate policy coordinate minimum pricing coordinate minimum standards for due diligence and I think that might be a viable solution in the future if you can get sort of the if you can get the citizenship by investment units not just in the Caribbean you'd have to bring on board you know Malta Vanuatu Turkey etc if that might be the most feasible solution because then you could have global standards and they are coordinated between not not between a variety of different governments globally but uh between specific units within government that can be in close touch with each other and and who more importantly have intimate knowledge of how citizenship by investment works and then subsequently later down the line let's say some other some new country launches a citizenship by investment program and we're not sure about their due diligence and then you could have sort of a stamp of approval or not on that country and say well these are not members of CIPA so uh you know caveat emtor.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: But um that yeah that might be the way forward we haven't heard from them in a long time I know Nestor Alfred in the St.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: Lucius CIU um was attempting to take uh a great deal of initiative in in that group for for sort of uh consolidating uh the work that that group does and and coordinating with all the other countries but I think he probably found what it looks to me it looks to me like he found that interest in that was not particularly high and I mean this is always the problem when you try to have set up a cartel right so I don't cartel has it has a negative connotation because of drug cartels but it but a cartel is just like OPEC right uh it's a it's a group that colludes to fix prices or fixed rules but but the problem a cartel always has is that someone jumps ship and for a short time they can enjoy the benefits of not being in the cartel and then the cartel breaks up and I think probably that's what happened to to SIPA because I haven't seen them do anything in a long time.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: I I do think they've been challenged by the pandemic and I know that there is an appetite from all the units in the Caribbean to work together because they understand the importance of having a concerted effort to you know protect Caribbean citizenship as a whole.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: What I will say is because this industry is still new um the road to creating that cartel is still a long way away um you know it's easy to create it in the Caribbean because they do have a close association generally in terms of even other industries but then when you start talking about bringing a Turkey on board or a um you know Malta you're expanding it outside uh what people know and feel comfortable with and if you look at the tobacco industry you know it it took I think almost centuries to get you know a cartel um together to actually agree um so I think we've got a long way to go but certainly it would be a good idea because it would set a unified standard the issue being um there has to be an appetite from all the countries and because they're all competing they don't really see the benefit at this stage to come together.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: But let's see I mean I know efforts have been uh there to get get everyone around the table well certainly if you have more favorable terms than your neighbors and because of that you are selling 10 times as many citizenships as your neighbor then you obviously have less of an incentive to coordinate policy with with the one who's doing 10 times fewer than you well that's that's more because you don't want to lose that volume so you know it depends on which way way you look at it.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: But that's a very good point.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: It it's certainly open for discussion.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: So as you might might remember Micah we did a uh report recently investment migration after COVID we interviewed you for that report and we also did a survey um we did the uh 2021 investment migration executive survey you can read all about that in that report it's completely free for IMI club members uh all of you should become IMI club members uh but one of the interesting findings uh in in that survey was well we asked about you know how companies work patterns have changed as a consequence of the pandemic I mean companies have changed the way they work uh in all kinds of industries not this is not something isolated to investment migration of course but I thought it was interesting to see some of the results from that survey and one of the more remarkable observations is that a vast majority of the respondents have indicated that they will not be returning to previous patterns of work where they you know everybody had to be in the office there was a lot of business travel there was a lot of physical attendance at conferences uh it doesn't seem from the results of that survey that that is coming back anytime soon and now that we have a chance to to talk to the head of uh one of those companies uh you Micah here I wanted to understand how your own company has changed as a consequence of the pandemic so first of all what lessons did the pandemic teach you and your colleagues at CS Global I think the nature of our business is that we can be um we can work remotely and in many cases you know we have we we were working remotely even before the pandemic but of course our core team um particularly in the London office you know we had to disband um at that point when in in March last year and what it really taught us was um to utilize more digital tools which became quite effective um to really focus our minds on the problem and I think to learn to be more productive and effective as a team so I think the outcome was quite positive in the long run.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: But certainly there are challenges you know there were positive and negative um outcomes from working remotely and I think the positive outcomes you know I've just outlined I think the negative outcomes was you know not having that connection not having that um creative space of being together because I think um that face to face interaction is so critical and that goes with also dealing with clients um it's it's always easier to be face to face with the client so obviously you you've had to adapt the way you work as as a response to those changing circumstances but
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: What of the what of those adaptations do you think will remain with CS Global long term?
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: For example, do you do you think that you will need the same amount of office space when things get back to normal?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: Or have some of your do you think that more of your employees can work remotely?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: Another example would be do you think that you will return to the same level of business travel or physical presence at events as you had before the pandemic, or will will those will some of those adaptations linger even after the pandemic is in the rearview mirror?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think regardless of what industry you're in, the pandemic has changed the way we do business.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: We certainly seeing a scaling down of office space across all sectors.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you look at central London, um, there's a huge move towards that.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um you will still have your office space because it's important to have a spot to meet clients and um you know to meet and collaborate as a team.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of traveling, you know, if you think about the amount of time, I used to spend huge amounts of time on an aeroplane traveling back and forth for conferences or meetings.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there are still critical meetings and events one does need to attend.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, me sitting and dialing in with everyone else uh to hear a conference is so much more effective on my time management than going to the airport, getting on a plane, traveling to the place, staying overnight, etc.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I definitely think the world of business travel will change significantly.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: We will still do be doing business travel, it's important.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: Face-to-face um interaction is critical, but not as much as we used to.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely not.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: We had some questions from the audience that they wanted us to raise with you.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: There was one question from Ravi Kanth that I think you've already answered, actually.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, do you think it's the right time to have a regulatory framework in place for all the stakeholders of the RCBI industry across the globe?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: We've just dealt with that, so I think we'll skip it, Ravi, but honorable mention nonetheless.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: Umr Faruk Karaman asks, what is the next step in growth for CS Global?
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: Would you consider expanding into the Turkish Citizenship by Investment Program?
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: So CS Global has two parts to it.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: It has the government advisory and marketing department, and then of course the you know business development, client-facing, legal department.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: So in terms of development, you know, we when we deal with clients, we tend to deal with all the citizenship and residence programs available.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um so in answer to that question, you know, if we feel that the processing looks good in the program is legitimate, we'd happy offer it to our clients.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in respect of working with Turkey as a program, I mean that's a conversation for another day.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: Very good.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one final question, and this comes from Patrick Cox.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: How does one get into the CVI industry?
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: What junior career paths are there for new entrants?
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think the first thing to do is probably to identify a company that you would want to work with, um, and what area?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: The opportunities in this industry are so vast because you know we're such a global industry, so it really depends on where you want to be based.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, have a good understanding of the market.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Perhaps if you've got a regional interest or you you're from a particular particular region and you've got a good understanding of the market there, that might be an interesting way of pitching yourself forward for the industry.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's that's the way way to start.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just you know, understand what the programs offer and give the right information to clients.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think um yeah, go ahead.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have one more audience question from myself actually, because since we uh yeah, set uh uh set this podcast with Micah, I've been rousing my brain to uh ask uh you know certain questions for someone who's been in the industry for so long and who's built something so big with their own hands.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've talked to this with uh multiple people in the industry, especially in Dubai, and we were talking about how CBI programs are getting cheaper, commission is getting lower, more companies are popping up, Bashada would call them pop-up shops, small companies, two or three people who don't actually know what they're doing.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the competition is getting higher, and more and more clients are doing some more window shopping and more aware markets like Dubai, Hong Kong, and so on.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we were talking about how sustainable is this gonna be going forward because more and more firms are making less money on each file, and more and more firms are having to undercut other competition.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, do you think this is actually leading us to the brink?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think there's gonna be um let's say a point of no return where we're gonna see a lot of smaller firms close up shop or bigger ones not be able to handle their overhead?
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think is gonna happen down the road?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think ideally that question should be answered by an economist.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: But um, since you're asking, I do think that because we, as we had mentioned, we don't need to have big offices.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think anyone can survive in this industry.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: However, um we we are dangerously heading for the race to the bottom.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that does concern me because I have been in the industry a long time and um it it worries me because it doesn't benefit anyone.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's it for today, folks.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: But we'll be back soon with another episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: In the meantime, I encourage you, the listener, to send us the questions you have about investment migration.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: If we're able to answer them, we'll do so during our next episode.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: I want to thank my co-host, the inimitable Ahmad Abbas, and remind you to follow our work on IMIDaily.com, the world's number one publication for investment migration, home to the internet's greatest collection of investment migration data, real estate expert opinion, and the intelligence you need to be a successful investment migration professional.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening.