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Mini: Learned Helplessness · Why We Do What We Do

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  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
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  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do?
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  Speaker 2: Mini. I am your host Abraham, and.
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  Speaker 3: I'm your host Shane.
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  Speaker 2: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
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  Speaker 2: that humans and non human animals do, and we'll be
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  Speaker 2: talking a little bit more about the things that non
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  Speaker 2: human animals do or don't do in this discussion today,
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  Speaker 2: because we're talking about something called learned helplessness.
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  Speaker 1: Ah.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, learned helplessness. It's a term that gets thrown around
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  Speaker 3: a lot. You've probably heard it, but most people don't
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  Speaker 3: actually know what it is. They just kind of go
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  Speaker 3: They just assume that somebody is not doing something because
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  Speaker 3: of learned helplessness, and most of the time they get
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  Speaker 3: it wrong.
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  Speaker 2: Before we jump into that, I would like to say
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  Speaker 2: that if you're joining us for the first time, Welcome.
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  Speaker 2: We are so glad to have you here. If you're
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  Speaker 2: a joining us again because you've listened to us before,
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  Speaker 2: value in the thing that we make here on this podcast,
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  Speaker 2: and we hope that you continue to do so in
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  Speaker 2: the future. And if you like to support us in
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  Speaker 2: any way, you can leave us a rating and review,
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  Speaker 2: like subscribe, tell a friend, or head over to Patreon
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  Speaker 2: and there you'll get some bonus stuff. I'll talk more
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  Speaker 2: about all of that at the end of this discussion.
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  Speaker 2: But as we said at the top, this is a
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  Speaker 2: mini which means it's a short episode. We just get
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  Speaker 2: into a topic, get out of that topic, and then
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  Speaker 2: you go about your day. But we'll do a quick
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  Speaker 2: breakdown of this thing and learn helplessness. You've probably heard
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  Speaker 2: of it, do you know what it is? It could
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  Speaker 2: probably be a full length episode or maybe even a
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  Speaker 2: series of episodes if we wanted to get on. Like
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  Speaker 2: the research that led to the development of this and
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  Speaker 2: how they began to interpret this and all the research
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  Speaker 2: that happened and all of that I think is very fascinating. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: and maybe we'll get there, but for now, I think
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  Speaker 2: it's easy enough to unpack the general idea on the
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  Speaker 2: mini and it definitely feels like it's worth addressing.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and part of this was inspired by hearing someone
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  Speaker 3: use this incorrectly, like we off. Actually, as a matter
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  Speaker 3: of fact, it's like most of our episodes. We hear
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  Speaker 3: somebody whose it wrong on we go well, actually, and
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  Speaker 3: then here we are with this new episode. Yeah, not
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  Speaker 3: in a bad way, but like we're just kind of like, oh, right,
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  Speaker 3: people don't actually understand this. Multiple people use this incorrectly,
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  Speaker 3: and some of them who should have definitely known better,
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  Speaker 3: uses incorrectly. So now we're gonna talk about it.
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  Speaker 2: Boy, you know what, this whole podcast could have maybe
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  Speaker 2: even been called well, actually.
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  Speaker 3: That's a subtitle. That's a subtitle a little bit. I
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  Speaker 3: think like it's kind of like how Slaughterhouse five is.
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  Speaker 3: I think the subtitle is like the Children's War, So
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  Speaker 3: it's like that. It's like that too. You know.
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  Speaker 2: I have to ready read that. I haven't read that
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  Speaker 2: in a long time.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, it's on my list. I gotta read it again.
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  Speaker 3: It's incredible, all right.
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  Speaker 2: So anyway, let's unpack what learned helplessness is and how
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  Speaker 2: we know about it and mercifully this is one of
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  Speaker 2: those descriptions that is fairly self evident from the name alone.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely so. The feeling of helpless this that comes
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  Speaker 3: from experiences such that we learn to be helpless is
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  Speaker 3: what learned helplesses is basically just kind of like we
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  Speaker 3: experience this thing and we go, oh, it's out of
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  Speaker 3: my control. I can't do anything about it. That's really
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  Speaker 3: kind of the gist of it.
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  Speaker 2: That is kind of it. You kind of actually hit
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  Speaker 2: the nail on the head. This is credited to Martin E. P. Seligman.
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  Speaker 2: He was doing research on Pavlovian classical conditioning with rats
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  Speaker 2: and dogs at the University of Pennsylvania in the nineteen sixties.
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  Speaker 2: Seligman and some colleagues were conducting experimental arrangements in which
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  Speaker 2: rats or in one case, dogs, they were exposed to
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  Speaker 2: electric shock. Yes, this is a thing that they did
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  Speaker 2: back then, and they inadvertently discovered that if dogs received
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  Speaker 2: electric shock from which they could not escape or avoid,
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  Speaker 2: or at least couldn't figure out how to escape or avoid,
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  Speaker 2: they stopped attempting to escape or avoid. They would just
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  Speaker 2: sit there being shocked, just letting it. It just happened
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  Speaker 2: because there's nothing they could do about it. Like, they
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  Speaker 2: couldn't fight back, They wouldn't do anything. They would just
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  Speaker 2: lay there being exposed to the shock.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Now, Seligman decided to pursue this with humans as well,
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  Speaker 3: although he switched to using loud sounds instead of electric shocks,
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  Speaker 3: which I guess is better if you you know, I
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  Speaker 3: guess shock doesn't necessarily give you hearing damage, but you know,
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  Speaker 3: there's that, and then actually replicated the phenomenon he had
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  Speaker 3: observed with dogs.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the same thing of people feeling like if I
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  Speaker 2: can't do anything about it, then I just sit here
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  Speaker 2: and have to take it. I guess.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: This quickly became popular and more of the sort of
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  Speaker 2: social psychology circles as well as people delivering therapy and
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  Speaker 2: clinical settings, And it does explain so much for many
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  Speaker 2: people who develop rigid self deprecating habits that some of
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  Speaker 2: them have learned this through an experience in which they
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  Speaker 2: contacted some trauma that they could do nothing to avoid
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  Speaker 2: or escape once it happened, And like knowing that about
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  Speaker 2: someone's past can really help illustrate how they got to
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  Speaker 2: this place where you're like, why don't you just try?
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  Speaker 2: Why don't you just get yourself out of it? And
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  Speaker 2: they're just like, what's the point, Like this is just
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  Speaker 2: going to keep happening. I'm stuck here.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, just kind of like how you're acting right now
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  Speaker 3: when these ads play. Okay, so we're talking about learned helplessness.
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  Speaker 3: Hopefully you have gotten out of that contingency and uh,
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  Speaker 3: let's keep going on this. Now, imagine someone who suddenly
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  Speaker 3: experiences a major sedure for the first time, Like, this
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  Speaker 3: is just a major thing that happened. They have they
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  Speaker 3: it was out of nowhere. It comes out of nowhere,
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  Speaker 3: and it completely changes things that you can and can't do,
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  Speaker 3: and your thoughts are about things that you can and
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  Speaker 3: can't do. It changes everything. Why even try to learn
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  Speaker 3: or remember have control over your own life if it
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  Speaker 3: can be snatched away in the blink of an eye
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  Speaker 3: through no fault of your own. This happens. This happens
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  Speaker 3: to people, like something happens. They go, oh, this is
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  Speaker 3: my life, now, this could be what what what's the
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  Speaker 3: point of continuing forward if this is something that that's
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  Speaker 3: like we are we are minuscule, we are you know,
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  Speaker 3: they have like an existential crisis over it. Almost.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I tried and this thing just happened, and
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  Speaker 2: now like I can't learn.
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  Speaker 3: I did all the right things right, Yeah, I did
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  Speaker 3: all the right things in this and it was taken
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  Speaker 3: away from me. So what's the point.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I can't learn, I can't remember. I'm just
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  Speaker 2: gonna just whatever. I'm just going to wallow in. This
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  Speaker 2: is what I have, and it's it's it is what
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  Speaker 2: it is. Another situation. Imagine being attacked by a stranger
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  Speaker 2: randomly as you're going about your day, and like, let's
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  Speaker 2: just imagine that you're like you're in sort of your
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  Speaker 2: normal routine, Like you're just going through the places you
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  Speaker 2: normally go, doing the things you normally do. This can
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  Speaker 2: again and be a sense of helplessness that even though
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  Speaker 2: you did nothing risky, out of character or problematic, you
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  Speaker 2: are subjected to this violence, and that can leave people
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  Speaker 2: feeling a loss of control and having this sort of
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  Speaker 2: ongoing then thought and experience that there's no point in
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  Speaker 2: trying to do things because things like that will just
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  Speaker 2: happen to.
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  Speaker 3: You, right, And for some people it may be that
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  Speaker 3: they're withdrawals an attempt to avoid future trauma and that
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  Speaker 3: they are taking a proactive approach. This definitely may happen
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  Speaker 3: for some people, but for the purposes of this discussion,
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  Speaker 3: we're using the condition under which it leaves them feeling
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  Speaker 3: unavoidably helpless. It's a different sensation, it's a different emotion,
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  Speaker 3: it's a different thought pattern.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the difference between I'm just going to
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  Speaker 2: stop doing these things to try and avoid any further
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  Speaker 2: trauma because I'm trying to take a proactive a proach
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  Speaker 2: for myself versus I give up. Yeah, I'm just done.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, you know.
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  Speaker 2: Like I don't care. That's sort of the difference between
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  Speaker 2: those two things. The experience can immediately generalize to a
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  Speaker 2: self generated rule. I think people can have the walk
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  Speaker 2: away with the I'm broken, I'm weak, I'm an effective
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  Speaker 2: because they ran into the situation that they could do
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  Speaker 2: nothing about where they thought they had control over their lives,
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  Speaker 2: and all of a sudden they didn't. And the fall
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  Speaker 2: out of this can lead to other failures that come
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  Speaker 2: from giving up. It could lead to loss of relationships,
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  Speaker 2: poor work performances, failing out of school, and all of
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  Speaker 2: those failures just further confirm the rule that you've generated
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  Speaker 2: I'm weak, I'm broken, I'm an effective, And it creates
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  Speaker 2: sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, as they like to say,
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  Speaker 2: or a like a cycle, like a just of ongoing
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  Speaker 2: things getting worse, and situations that used to evoke joy
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  Speaker 2: and active participation now instead take on the effect and
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  Speaker 2: function of the rule that was actually generated by the trauma.
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  Speaker 2: And so it gets into that vicious cycle of just
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  Speaker 2: the snake in in its own tail thing where your
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  Speaker 2: experience a situation that just happened, it wasn't your fault,
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  Speaker 2: but as a fallout of that, you inadvertently create situations
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  Speaker 2: that strengthen that feeling of helplessness. If that makes sense.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And this is also when we talk
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  Speaker 3: about folks who are in abusive relationships or really horrible jobs,
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  Speaker 3: or like life circumstances that they feel stuck. Yeah, this
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  Speaker 3: is a consideration like that for people and why they
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  Speaker 3: stay there. You know, you might know, like you know,
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  Speaker 3: people who live in a small town, they're like, there's
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  Speaker 3: no getting out of here. People who are in those
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  Speaker 3: relationships that are like I just can't get out. What
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  Speaker 3: am I going to do if I get out? Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: this is something that they really experience. This is this
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  Speaker 3: is definitely consideration or something to explore at least if
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  Speaker 3: we're working with folks trying to change their lives.
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  Speaker 2: So that's learned helplessness. We observed it in animals, we
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  Speaker 2: observe it in humans. It is extremely difficult to overcome.
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  Speaker 2: It takes the help of trained professionals, and it really
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  Speaker 2: also helps to have like compassion and patience of loved
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  Speaker 2: ones to help move someone through it. Otherwise they may
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  Speaker 2: not move through it and might just kind of be
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  Speaker 2: stuck there in that vicious cycle. So it's what I
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  Speaker 2: think worth just considering that, Like when you see these
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  Speaker 2: people who are in this situations, you're like, why why
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  Speaker 2: do you Why aren't you trying harder to get out
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  Speaker 2: of this? That's why. Yeah, it's like they learn for
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  Speaker 2: themselves that there is no escape, and like even just
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  Speaker 2: telling them there is an escape that may not necessarily
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  Speaker 2: mean anything in some of these situations with like the
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  Speaker 2: rats and the dogs, they provided them viable means of
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  Speaker 2: escaping their situation, but they didn't take them. They'd just
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  Speaker 2: given up. And that's this experience of learned helplessness that
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  Speaker 2: a lot of people find themselves in in some of
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  Speaker 2: these these these places, and it sucks, like it's a
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  Speaker 2: terrible place to be. But I think the main point
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  Speaker 2: here is to help underscore like that's what it is,
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  Speaker 2: and people are using this term incorrectly. We'd like to
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  Speaker 2: try and set the course straight on, like what is
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  Speaker 2: actually happening in learn selfish or learned helplessness, not learn selfishness,
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  Speaker 2: totally different thing. Learned helpless yesh, yeah, yeah, absolutely all right.
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  Speaker 2: Is there anything you'd like to add or anything that
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  Speaker 2: we that I forgot before we wrap this up?
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  Speaker 3: No, I think we should pat ourselves on the back
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  Speaker 3: for getting another mini at about ten minutes. It's pretty great.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, that isn't I think that's I think that's
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  Speaker 2: actually three in a row for us. That is almost
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  Speaker 2: a bingo. Anyway, if you would like to tell us
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  Speaker 2: your thoughts on Learned Helplessness, tell us what we got
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  Speaker 2: wrong or especially what we got right, you can email
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  Speaker 2: us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com, or reach
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  Speaker 2: want to also add a review that helps even more.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: But five stars is great also, and I think that
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  Speaker 2: that is what I have to say. Thank you too
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: so much to my team of people who make these
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  Speaker 2: things happen. Is there anything else that I forgot that
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  Speaker 2: you would like to add before we get out of
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  Speaker 2: here in a reasonable amount of time? Nope, not today.
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  Speaker 2: All right, thank you all for listening. This is Abraham
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  Speaker 2: and this is Shane. Why We Do what we Do?
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  Speaker 2: Minie is out.
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  Speaker 3: Bye.
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  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
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  Speaker 1: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
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  Speaker 1: going to WWDWWD podcast dot com.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.