Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - EP. 417- Oswald In Russia... Friends & Goomars

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JFK ASSASSINATION - EP. 417- Oswald In Russia... Friends & Goomars · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God. Late afternoon heat down in Dealey Plaza,
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: a young man holds a long paper sack, set his
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: curtain rods for the window frame while the heavy Sedans
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: pull back. Up on the sixth floor of the book depository,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: the truth gets tucked away. Cuban exiles down in the
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Keys waiting for their pay.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the Lone Gun Man podcast tonight. Where the
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: official line ain't right. Triple B and Joe reading line
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: by line. Through the black ink on the page.
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: Who can pass?
• 1:15
  Speaker 5: Triple B and Joe reading line by line.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Lone Gun Man podcast tonight.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: Where the official line ain't right. Triple B and Joe
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: read line by line.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Through the black ink on the page. Looking past the grass.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Oswald walking down a Dallas street, handcuffed to a detective sleeve.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Jack Ruby steps from the crowded press with a.
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: Trick of a suit jacket sleeve.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Redacted documents stacked on the desk, thick black lines on
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: every name. They call it an open and shut case
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: while they play the.
• 2:26
  Speaker 6: Same old game.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Is it a single shot from behind? Or a rifle
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: behind the fence? Take a ride with Triple B and Joby.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Nothing here makes any sense.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the Lone Gun Man podcast tonight.
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: Hey now! So nice, we had to show you twice.
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: You probably hit a button or something.
• 3:26
  Speaker 6: I messaged you, I said, I froze for like half
• 3:31
  Speaker 6: a second, and I was like, oh, let me catch up.
• 3:33
  Speaker 6: And I restarted it, but it's so good, and it
• 3:38
  Speaker 6: was one and a half times, but it's so good. Hey,
• 3:41
  Speaker 6: I didn't mind. How are you, sir? Happy Friday.
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: Fantastic. Finally Friday. This will be Joe's last live episode
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: for a couple weeks, and then he shall be back
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: from Italy, the motherland.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 3:57
  Speaker 6: Okay, so on this version of how well do you
• 4:01
  Speaker 6: know your co-host, what percent do you think I am at?
• 4:07
  Speaker 6: And I'm going to give you a hint. It's not zero.
• 4:10
  Speaker 6: It's probably higher than you think, although it's not something
• 4:14
  Speaker 6: to brag about. And you got it right last time,
• 4:17
  Speaker 6: which was 0%. Yeah.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: What percentage do I think that you're ready and packed
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: to go?
• 4:26
  Speaker 6: Yeah. It's not zero.
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: Okay. I'm going to say, what time are you leaving
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: in the morning?
• 4:34
  Speaker 6: 3 p.m.
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: Oh, so you have pretty much all day tomorrow?
• 4:39
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I have to drop. All right.
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: I'm factoring that into the equation.
• 4:43
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so you need the context.
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: Uh, 10%?
• 4:50
  Speaker 6: I'd say about 20%.
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: Really? You think?
• 4:54
  Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean, I have all my clothes laid out
• 4:56
  Speaker 6: on my bed. You know, it's funny because Jack Taylor
• 5:00
  Speaker 6: went up, I saw you in the chat, texted me.
• 5:02
  Speaker 6: He's like, are you packed yet? And I'm like, I'm
• 5:04
  Speaker 6: getting there. But I had to make a detour to
• 5:08
  Speaker 6: buy pants that don't clash with my sport coat, which
• 5:14
  Speaker 6: apparently my other ones did, which I guess is a thing. So,
• 5:18
  Speaker 6: almost $ 200 later for a pair of pants. Like $ 170.
• 5:24
  Speaker 6: Here we go. Here we go. Oh, man. But I
• 5:28
  Speaker 6: am excited. I'm also anxious. You know, the flight will suck. But, yeah.
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: But you'll get there eventually.
• 5:36
  Speaker 6: I will, allegedly.
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, allegedly. Inshallah. All right, Joe, let's talk some JFK.
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: It's Friday night where we jump right into things, and
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: we are skafoozing for a second here, but just to
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: get back on track.
• 5:52
  Speaker 6: Better than 45 minutes on members only.
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that was bad, but it was still good.
• 5:58
  Speaker 6: I don't think it was bad.
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: I don't know. It was good in its own way.
• 6:03
  Speaker 6: And we have a very fun show tonight, and I
• 6:05
  Speaker 6: think a lot of people will learn some new things
• 6:09
  Speaker 6: about what Oswalt was doing in Russia and who his
• 6:11
  Speaker 6: friends were. who his Gumars were, etc.
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: Yes, Oswald in Russia, friends and Gumars, if you will.
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: So today, we're stepping back into a quiet, often overlooked
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: chapter of a life that later became one of the
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: most scrutinized in American history, and that would be Lee
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: Harvey Oswald's. Now, before Dallas, and before the schoolbook depository,
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: and all that jazz, and before the name Lee Harvey
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: Oswald became inseparable from the date November 22, 1963.
• 6:42
  Speaker 6: Before New Orleans, at least in 63.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: Well, it was after New Orleans.
• 6:46
  Speaker 6: Well, I said in 63, but yes. Yeah.
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: There was Oswald in Minsk, okay? So from early 1960
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: until about the spring of 62, Oswald lived and worked
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: in the capital of the Byler Russian Soviet Socialist Republic.
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: He held a job at a radio and television factory.
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: made friends among the workers and students there. He went
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: to dances. He chased women and ultimately decided that the
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: Soviet experiment just was not for him, Joe.
• 7:19
  Speaker 6: He did. Yeah.
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: Now this is the story of Oswald's time in Russia and,
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: and not necessarily much of the ideology or the later headlines,
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: but just the everyday monotonous shit of what Oswald would do. Uh,
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: Not necessarily on a daily basis, but just how his
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: life was in general in Russia, in Minsk, in this
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: period in his life. A lot of it is going
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: to stem from his recollections in his historic diary, as
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: Joe will bring to light here in a little bit.
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: And some of the rest of it comes from Marina. Marina.
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: And some of Oswald's friends that he made while in Russia. Yeah,
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: the old lone nut, the old lone wolf, the old loner. Right, Joe?
• 8:16
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: Had friends in Russia, believe it or not.
• 8:21
  Speaker 6: Many, actually.
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and they liked hanging out together. They would go
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: to concerts together. They would get together and just skafoos around.
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: You know, just act stupid. play, you know, like read
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: Shakespeare and some other shit. Just pretend, you know, that
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: they were on the radio or whatever.
• 8:42
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: And I've got a sample of that for everybody right
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: here off the top of the show. It's two minutes.
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: This is Ernst Titovitz. Titovitz. Ernst Titovitz. And Lee Harvey Oswald.
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: Huh?
• 8:58
  Speaker 6: Titovitz?
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: Titovitz.
• 9:01
  Speaker 6: Titovitz.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: Titovitz.
• 9:03
  Speaker 6: You're better at that than I am.
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: Well, he says it. In this sound bite.
• 9:08
  Speaker 6: Right. And he's kind of using, Rob, in my opinion,
• 9:15
  Speaker 6: like a fake accent because they're kind of role-playing. So
• 9:20
  Speaker 6: I'm not, I mean, you could tell it's Lee, but
• 9:23
  Speaker 6: I feel like he's like putting a little extra in there.
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, they're farting around, you know, they're just
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: being funny. So in this clip, Lee is pretending.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: To be.
• 9:43
  Speaker 6: I think Tenevitz was the senator, right?
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: Yes, but Oswald was pretending to be a Moidula, shall
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: we say.
• 9:54
  Speaker 6: Oh, yes.
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's hard.
• 9:56
  Speaker 6: Which, of course, is extremely ironic. I mean, when you
• 10:00
  Speaker 6: look at Yeah, of.
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: Course, you know, people point to this, ah, look, you know,
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: it was in his head even back in Russia, you know. But,
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: you know, let's just take a listen to it, Joe,
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: and see what we got going on here, okay?
• 10:13
  Speaker 6: Let's do it.
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: And it's just going to be right here, Joe. We're
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: not going anywhere, so Here we go.
• 10:22
  Speaker 7: I am Professor Ernest Titovitz, the author of the book
• 10:26
  Speaker 7: Oswald Russian Episode. Now it is the year 2011, and
• 10:33
  Speaker 7: next we're going to make a half-century leap back in
• 10:38
  Speaker 7: time and listen to the voices of two young men.
• 10:42
  Speaker 7: then i interview him as a notorious killer jack ma
• 10:48
  Speaker 7: and then again as a sort of propeller-head researcher.
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: Ladies and gentlemen, now I broadcast here from the courtyard.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Well, the man.
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: Shouting is a famous killer. Well, when he was around here,
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: he killed his grandma and he, well, he hanged his mother.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: And now I give the word to Mr. To Mr.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Jack Marr. Sir, here you have his voice. Goddamn, give
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: me a talking machine and I'll shoot up everybody in
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: the goddamn place. Will you tell us about your last killing?
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: Well, it was a young girl under a bridge.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: She came in carrying a loaf of bread and I
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: just cut her throat from ear to ear. What for? Well,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: I wanted the loaf of bread, of course.
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: And what do you think to be your most famous
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: killing in your life?
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: Well, the time I killed the eight men on the
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: Bowery sidewalk there, they were just standing there laughing around.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: I didn't like their faces, so I just shot them
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: all with a machine gun. It was very, very famous.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: All the newspapers carried the story. Thank you very much. And, uh,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: whom do you prefer to kill? Well, it's all the
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: same to me. I don't know.
• 12:06
  Speaker 5: They're going to execute me tomorrow anyway.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, he's a very famous killer. I suppose
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: he will deserve his electric trap. Well, they're coming to
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: get me now. I have to go. So long.
• 12:17
  Speaker 6: Here we are in the death cell.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Well, they're slapping him in. They're putting him on the
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: chair now.
• 12:24
  Speaker 5: The officer is approaching the stand. He's raising his arm.
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: He's taking the.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: The switch. The switch. Now... The last word. Well, what
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: is your last word? Well, uh, well... Don't pull the switch!
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: There you have it, Joe. Don't pull the switch.
• 12:51
  Speaker 6: That is very interesting. I can tell that they're having
• 12:55
  Speaker 6: a lot of fun. They're joking around. They're playing in
• 12:58
  Speaker 6: the past. It's nothing nefarious. And Ernst Titovitz, Titovitz, whatever
• 13:05
  Speaker 6: you say.
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: Titovitz.
• 13:07
  Speaker 6: Titovitz. There you go. Was a big source for one
• 13:13
  Speaker 6: of the books behind me in the Oswald puzzle in
• 13:15
  Speaker 6: terms of going into... what Oswald really acted like. And
• 13:25
  Speaker 6: it's fascinating. There's more parts to it. You can look
• 13:27
  Speaker 6: it up on YouTube. A lot of it is bad quality, but.
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I cleaned that audio up as best as I
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: could in my audio editor. Still, it's a little sketchy.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: But the beginning wasn't my fault because Oswald was talking
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: behind Titovitz. And you could hear him say, motherfucking... And
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: you could hear him say, God damn it.
• 13:53
  Speaker 6: Audio issues. We can relate to that.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Well, no.
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: He had started acting. He was saying, I mean, the
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: motherfucking machine guns. God damn it. So, you know, again,
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: just a regular dude.
• 14:07
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: Making the best out of a weird situation.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: In Russia.
• 14:14
  Speaker 6: Right?
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: In the height of the Cold War.
• 14:16
  Speaker 6: The height of the Cold War.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: All right, Joe, so I'm going to put my Powerpuff
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: Point skills, Powerpuff Girl skills, to the test to see
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: how they rival Joe's PowerPoint skills. I'll just go ahead
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: and say right now.
• 14:35
  Speaker 6: Yours is better. I know what you're going to say.
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: I spiced mine up a little bit.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: All right, well.
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: Can you see that?
• 14:43
  Speaker 6: I'm all natural, baby.
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: Can you see that?
• 14:46
  Speaker 6: I can. I can see the little gif emoji meme
• 14:52
  Speaker 6: on the bottom right. Yes. It's working well.
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: Excellent.
• 14:57
  Speaker 6: Excellent.
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: All right. So let's see if I can make this work.
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: So again, Oswald in Russia. Friends and Gumars. So as
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: Joe mentioned, here's a couple of the best books on
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: Oswald's time. In Russia. Okay. We have Ernst Titovitz Oswald
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: Russian Episode.
• 15:21
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: On the left. And we have The Interloper. Lee Harvey
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: Oswald Inside the Soviet Union by Peter Savodnik. I would
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: highly recommend both of these books if his time in
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: Russia interests you guys. I don't know which one is better.
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: That's why my little frog meme guy is going, I
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: don't know.
• 15:43
  Speaker 6: Six up.
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: Six up. Six up. How am I doing so far, Joe?
• 15:51
  Speaker 6: You are fucking mogging me. Do you know what that means? No,
• 15:57
  Speaker 6: but okay. Okay, it means that when you show someone up,
• 16:03
  Speaker 6: it's like some dude clavicular. It's a young person thing. Oh, God.
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: Say no more.
• 16:10
  Speaker 6: You are mogging my PowerPoint.
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: Okay. All right, here we are in Minsk. That's Oswald
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: and Marina at a, at a local dance. And in
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: the distance behind them is their apartment building that they
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: were given to live in. As you can see, it
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: is a very nice fucking building. And I do believe
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: that they had one of the rooms with a view
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: with a balcony. As you can see, not all rooms
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: have a balcony here on the left. There's only a
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: couple that do. Um, So, you know, people were a
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: little jelly of Oswald and his apartment there in Minsk.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 16:59
  Speaker 6: And I think it's important to point out that, you know,
• 17:03
  Speaker 6: I don't know how many Americans were in Minsk at
• 17:06
  Speaker 6: that time.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Not many.
• 17:08
  Speaker 6: I bet it was like less than a handful. Yeah.
• 17:12
  Speaker 6: So when we get into the Gumars, we're going to
• 17:13
  Speaker 6: talk about like this mysterious Oswald. And Rob, I might
• 17:18
  Speaker 6: go out on a limb here and say... Maybe the
• 17:22
  Speaker 6: first year of Oswald in Russia was probably the happiest
• 17:25
  Speaker 6: he was.
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: Yes, I would say so. But again, eventually, not much
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: to do in Minsk, Joe. As he writes in his
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: historic diary, part of the reason that he wanted to
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: come home is because, yeah, he was making decent money there,
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: but there was nothing to do to go spend it.
• 17:45
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: He said he was lamenting the fact that they didn't
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: have any bowling alleys. not many movie theaters. Um, what
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: else was this great? I don't know. I mean, he
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: did buy a shotgun and he joined the honey club
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: at the factory, but there just wasn't a lot to do.
• 18:10
  Speaker 6: Right. Right.
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: And there was mandatory things like on, I think on
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: Sundays they had to go, uh, dig potatoes up or something.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:20
  Speaker 6: And there were after work, uh, propaganda meetings, if you will.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: Mandatory meetings and mandatory work to be done. In addition to,
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: you know, his, his factory salary, he was getting money
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: from the red cross as well. That kind of matched
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: what his 700 rubles that he was getting from the
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: radio factory. And so the main thing to do were these, uh,
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: union sponsored dances. Okay.
• 18:51
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: Where they would, like, match up different unions. Okay, so, like,
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: I guess they had a radio factory union there where
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: he worked. And then they would have another union that
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: was mostly ladies or women workers. And they would have
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: these dances. And, you know... So, you know, there was
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: a lot of.
• 19:18
  Speaker 6: Intermingling.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 19:21
  Speaker 6: Which, of course, you do when vodka and Russia is involved, right?
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, once Marina started to throw it back like that, boy,
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: Oswald just couldn't resist. Look at that.
• 19:31
  Speaker 6: Is she twerking there? Yeah.
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: Oh, I love it.
• 19:38
  Speaker 6: That's great.
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: Yes, this is Minsk.
• 19:42
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: All right, so this is Oswald and his buddies there
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: at the TV factory. I have no idea who is
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: who or... any of that. But as you can see,
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: you know, these guys are just palling around after work
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: or on a break or something, just chilling, hanging out
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: on some old, decrepit-ass bench. And Oswald's got his shades on,
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: just chilling, and all his buddies are around him, laying
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: all around him. You know, they're having a good time.
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: He's a bunch of young dudes in Russia just chilling.
• 20:13
  Speaker 6: Yeah, he looks gangster there. Look at him with his
• 20:17
  Speaker 6: elbows on the two skafoozas to his left and right. Like,
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: he was mogging them, if you will. Well, look, man.
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: He was an oddity in Minsk. He was one of
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: the very few, if not the only, young American male
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: in Minsk. I mean, you know, the Soviets weren't stupid.
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: They put him there for a reason. which is far
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: away from the capital of Moscow, number one. And number two,
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: it's way over here, and they can more easily kind
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: of keep an eye on him and keep him out
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: of trouble. Basically, they just wanted to get him out
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: of their hair and put him over here in the
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: corner and watch him just see what he's doing, right,
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: and see what his plans are because they didn't trust
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: the fact that He's just a disgruntled American defector, former Marine, blah, blah, blah.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: So, of course, you know, one of these guys in
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: this picture is probably running back to the KGB and
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: debriefing them about Oswald on a daily basis.
• 21:25
  Speaker 6: Probably, if not more than one.
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, more than likely. But, yeah, there's Mr. Loner, Lone
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: Nut himself, you know, with buddies. And like I was saying,
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: you know, he was an oddity. He was.
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: People like to talk to him because he did know
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: a little bit of Russian. And a lot of those
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: folks over there were enamored with the American dream, right?
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: That they'd all heard about and maybe seen a little
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: bit of when they were younger before the Iron Curtain dropped.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: But so to have an American living with them in
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: their way of life, you know, in the middle of
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: the Cold War was fascinating to a lot of these guys.
• 22:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah, mysterious. And when we get into Gumars, I think
• 22:13
  Speaker 6: that's kind of where he kind of took some of
• 22:16
  Speaker 6: his edge. I mean, of course, listen, I think he's
• 22:19
  Speaker 6: a good-looking guy at, what is he, 20 here? You know,
• 22:25
  Speaker 6: he could have easily gotten good-looking women. Good-looking women, you know?
• 22:30
  Speaker 6: He's not, like, crazy, but I think the mysterious aspect
• 22:35
  Speaker 6: of it really kind of... You know about it. When
• 22:40
  Speaker 6: you're with a girl and she's a mysterious foreign beauty,
• 22:44
  Speaker 6: you're a little all nabbered with her, right? I think
• 22:47
  Speaker 6: that kind of thing was going on.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: It's something different, something new, something you've never experienced before, basically.
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: Right, especially when you can't get access, like you said,
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: when the Iron Curtain closed, to Americans, right? So when
• 23:02
  Speaker 6: an American shows up, you're like, ooh, what's going on here?
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they're different than hearing Sally's British accent. Saying, please
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: keep talking. All right, so Oswald's circle in Minsk is
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: small but telling. One close factory friend is Pavel Golovachev,
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: an intelligent radio technician. They exchange language help with each other.
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: Oswald practices his Russian. Pavel learns English. They stay in
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: touch even after Oswald leaves Russia. They would still write
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: back and forth. A little bit. Nothing crazy. Alexander Zeiger,
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: a Polish-Jewish engineer who had lived in Argentina, becomes something
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: of a mentor to young Oswald. The Zeiger family, Alex
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: and his wife, daughters, Eleonora and Anita, invite Oswald for
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: dinners and parties. On May Day, 1960, after the big parade,
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: He joins a lively gathering at their place with dancing, singing,
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: and a mix of Argentine and Soviet guests. It feels warmer,
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: more cosmopolitan than the rigid factory life. Other Jewish colleagues
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: appear in the record, too, such as Sasha Rubinchik, an
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: engineer and tutor, metal lathe operators Leonid Botvinnik, and Maxim Prokhorchik.
• 24:32
  Speaker 6: So we figured it out, Rob. It was this room. Yes.
• 24:37
  Speaker 6: The Jews are behind everything. That is sarcasm, guys.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Kidding. Of course.
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: Alright, so here we have some pictures of Oswald in
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: Russia having a gay old time.
• 24:50
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: With his friends in Russia. And notice the two chicks
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: in the picture on the right. Neither one of them
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: is Marina.
• 25:00
  Speaker 6: Okay?
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: Duly noted. Now this picture down here at the bottom...
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: that my monkey puppet friend is eyeballing, was in the
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: Warren Commission report as an exhibit. And it shows Oswald
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: standing here with the arrow, black arrow pointed down to him.
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: And these are actually Americans who are tourists in August
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: of 1961 in Minsk. And they called this Kramer person
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: This Kramer family.
• 25:37
  Speaker 6: Any relation?
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: Possibly.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: To testify to the Warren Commission and answer some questions
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: about Oswald. Now, you'll notice this building here in the background, Joe,
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: that looks like a giant Parthenon. Right. I'm not 100%
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: sure what in the hell that is. But you'll notice
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: it in the background of a lot of photographs from
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: Oswald in Russia.
• 26:04
  Speaker 6: Right. One with Marina as well. Yeah. Yeah. It almost
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: looks like a, like a Roman column type of thing,
• 26:12
  Speaker 6: which is interesting. I don't know exactly what it is.
• 26:15
  Speaker 6: Someone smarter than us is in the chat. He could.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: I'm sure somebody knows what it is.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: So outside the plant, uh, the most vivid friendship is
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: with Ernst Titovitz, sometimes spelled Titovitz.
• 26:28
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: What's whatever a medical student who speaks good English. Uh,
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: Titovitz later described them going to dances and concerts together,
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: sharing practical jokes, pinching each other's nipples and smacking each
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: other's nuts, and energetically pursuing young women. He acted as
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: Oswald's wingman, if you will, Joe.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, oh.
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: They attended classical performances, and Ina Markava, a language student
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: first meets Oswald at a Mendelssohn violin concerto at the
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: Philharmonic in Minsk. So that's Agumar number one, or number ten.
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: I don't know what order she comes into the story,
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: but Titovets remains one of the most consistent personal witnesses
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: to Oswald's social life while in Minsk. Stanislav Shishkevich, Then
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: a young engineer at the same factory, later first post-Soviet
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: leader of independent Belarus, is assigned to help teach him Russian.
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: Shishkevich later recalled Oswald as rather unemotional on the surface,
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: but controlled and not easily excitable.
• 27:48
  Speaker 6: And that's a pretty BSD there. Yeah.
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: I would say he was probably reporting back to the KGB.
• 27:56
  Speaker 6: Oh, 110%, yes.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: If he would go on to later be the post-Soviet
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: leader of independent Belarus, that's a big deal.
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: Right, and Minsk is, of course, in modern-day Belarus. Yes.
• 28:11
  Speaker 6: I have a friend from Belarus, actually, and his brother
• 28:13
  Speaker 6: lives in Minsk. And I go, did you know Lee
• 28:16
  Speaker 6: Harvey Oswald worked there? And he's like, eh, he had
• 28:18
  Speaker 6: no idea. Who? Who?
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: All right. So we have some young love Minsk style, Joe,
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: with Marina and Lee. As I mentioned before, this building
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: in the background serves as a backdrop to a lot
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: of the Oswald photographs. And here on the right, by
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: my little emoji with hearts, is one of my favorite
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: pictures of Marina.
• 28:43
  Speaker 6: Because she's unburdened? Yes. Yes.
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: Daddy like, uh, I'm sure Oswald did too.
• 28:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: And here in the middle, this is a weird picture
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: to me, dude. Because to me, it don't look like Marina.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: And it doesn't really look like Oswald. But I'm guessing
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: it is. I don't know. There's been a lot of
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: consternation about this photo online because of the fact that
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: Marina is supposed to be 5'2, okay, and Oswald is
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: supposed to be at least 5'9, if not 5'11. Okay,
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: now I know Marina's got a big bush on her
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: head here in this picture, a lot of hair, you know,
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: on top. But still, you know, if you could put
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: where likely the top of her skull would be behind
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: that hair and then draw a line over to Oswald,
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: that don't look like at least seven inches of difference,
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: if not nine. Okay? Oswald should be much taller than that. Now,
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: it does appear that she has heels on, but not
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: like super high heels or anything. It doesn't look like.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: It's just one of those weird photos, you know, that
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: make you go, hmm, I don't know about that. But
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: that's just old conspiracy me coming out.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Excuse me.
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: Moving on. These relationships give Oswald a social world. Fancy lunches, parties,
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: practicing languages, and shared evenings of debauchery together. He is
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: the rare American in town, as I said, the only
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: one for a long stretch. And that status brings him
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: a lot of attention, Joe, which he seems to enjoy,
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: at least for a little while. He drops by the
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: dorm of the Institute of Foreign Languages near his apartment
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: unannounced one day, spending hours with the English-speaking female students.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: As one does. Some find it odd.
• 30:55
  Speaker 6: Use your advantage of speaking English, right?
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: I am a very cunning linguist, ladies. How are you
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: doing today? Some find him odd for having cut ties
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: with America, and others are just simply curious about this guy. Like,
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: what is he doing? What did Oswald actually do for fun?
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: The options are limited, but real. There was theater, cinema,
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: and opera, which I know not many people think opera's cool,
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: but back then, You know, this is like pre-rock and roll,
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean?
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: Opera wasn't too bad. Of course, if he grew up
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: in New Orleans, he would have been around a lot
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: of jazz type of stuff. But he did get a
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: hunting license, Joe. And on his hunting license, he is
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: listed as Alexei Harvey Oswald. His friends in Russia call
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: him Alec because Lee is hard to pronounce. and he
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: buys a 16-gauge single-barreled shotgun. He joins a factory-sponsored hunting
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: club and goes out at least half a dozen times
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: for small game in the countryside around Minsk, sometimes staying
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: overnight in villages and leaving the catch with the locals.
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: Here are some pheasants that I shot. Cook them up, please.
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: He notes the peasant life as crude and poor. So again, Joe,
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: he's going out in the countryside where, you know, these
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: are like real poor ass people out in the country of,
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: of Minsk. Right.
• 32:25
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: I mean, they got nothing. I mean, nothing. So most
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: of the time, you know, whatever they shot, they would
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: give to the locals.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: Just because it was too much to carry back with
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: them and prepare. And the locals would let them hunt
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: on the land as long as they got, you know,
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: a cut of, uh, the game that they, that they shot.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: And I don't know what all they were shooting. Uh,
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: Like I said, it was probably mostly small bird game,
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: I'm guessing, or small rodent game, if you will, squirrel, rabbit, groundhog,
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: or whatever they got over there in Russia as the equivalent.
• 33:05
  Speaker 6: Yeah, but you could see Oswalt being somewhat curious, I
• 33:11
  Speaker 6: would say, about life in the countryside, right? Because he's
• 33:15
  Speaker 6: living in a fancy apartment, he has a pretty well-paying
• 33:19
  Speaker 6: job at a factory, although he you know, gets bored
• 33:23
  Speaker 6: of it, of course, but I could see him doing
• 33:27
  Speaker 6: something like this.
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you can see how the different, I
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: don't want to necessarily call it a caste system worked
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: over there, because it was communism, but there was different
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: levels to the communism, if you will. You know, you
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: had to work your way up to a certain status.
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: You know, it wasn't where they just gave everybody eight potatoes.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean? Those people in the country
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: would have to travel and come get their made potatoes
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: if they really wanted them.
• 33:57
  Speaker 6: Right?
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: They would have to come into town and stand in
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: line for eight hours to get a little piece of
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: bread or whatever. A lot of people in the city,
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: they're already there. And they live a little bit of
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: a better life than some of these folks who are
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: way out in the country. So here we have a
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: picture of Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina with Marina's aunt,
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: La Bova. Aksyanova. Her husband is Vasily Aksyanova. And they
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: will be referred to hereafter as Aunt Lubova and Uncle Vasily.
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: Photo taken in Minsk. Now this would be the aunt
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: who when they were writing in 1963 to try to
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: go back and they told they gave Marina a bunch
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: of hoops to jump through. She tried to get Aunt
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: Lubova and to let them stay with her and Vasili
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: when they came back. And Aunt Lebova said, I don't
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: think so. We're good.
• 35:03
  Speaker 6: And I think it's noted that she did not have
• 35:07
  Speaker 6: any kids of herself. So Marina was kind of like
• 35:11
  Speaker 6: her kid. Am I correct on that?
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. Because Marina really didn't have parents to speak of, right?
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure what happened to her. I think her
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: father was somewhere and her mother may have died when
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: she was younger or something.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: I'm making shit up at this point. But her parents
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: definitely weren't in the picture. So, you know, she was
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: often left asking for help from her different aunts and uncles. Because,
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: you know, her other uncle that she stayed with For
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: a little while, you know, he was in, like, the
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: Russian version of the FBI.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 35:54
  Speaker 6: Yep.
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 35:59
  Speaker 6: All right. And just notice that, like, when you look
• 36:04
  Speaker 6: at Lee in later pictures and stuff, like, he just
• 36:09
  Speaker 6: looks so happy here. And granted, that was for.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: That is a good.
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: A good observation, Joe. In every picture that you see,
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: he's smiling. He's happy.
• 36:22
  Speaker 6: Right? Yeah.
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: You know, for the first time in his life, he's
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: not a shitheel. Right?
• 36:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: You know, growing up and going to all these different schools,
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: you know, being dirt-ass poor, probably shitty clothes. Kids made
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: fun of him for the way he looked and talked, probably.
• 36:40
  Speaker 6: Crazy mother.
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: Always being the new kid. Crazy mother. Mother not around
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: all the time. No father. Much older brothers. You know,
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: he was kind of left to fend for himself as
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: a young guy. And then he joins the Marines where,
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: you know, you're a shitheel from the moment you enter
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: until you establish yourself at some level, which he never
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: seemed to manage to do. And here we have him
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: in Russia. This is the first time in his life
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: where he actually feels important and he's treated as somebody
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: who's important.
• 37:09
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: People want to talk to him. People want to listen
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: to him. And he was getting a lot of trim
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: over there in Russia. It wasn't just Marina and a
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: bunch of others. He was plowing through it. So yeah,
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: he is happy. He is smiling from ear to ear
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: in a lot of these photos, Joe.
• 37:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah. It's one of the first things I noticed when
• 37:31
  Speaker 6: I went through a lot of these pictures. I was like, man,
• 37:33
  Speaker 6: this young kid looks happy and good for him. It's very,
• 37:39
  Speaker 6: of course, sad of how it ended up. Yes.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: The novelty does wear off apparently after a while for him.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 37:45
  Speaker 6: Well, we always talk about how Oswald was easily bored, right?
• 37:49
  Speaker 6: And how he always changed his mind. And that eventually
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: happened towards, uh, later 1960 through 1961. And, and as
• 37:57
  Speaker 6: of going back in the spring of 1962, spring, summer,
• 38:00
  Speaker 6: you know, All.
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: Right, so back to this. Dances were central. I mean,
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: they went to a lot of them. Trade union events
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: at the Palace of Culture of trade unions or the
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: Palace of Culture for professional workers are regular destinations for
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: these young people. Oswald teaches students to twist. Come on, baby.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Bro.
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: Twist.
• 38:26
  Speaker 6: If I had a time machine... I would go back
• 38:30
  Speaker 6: to that moment just for LOL's purposes.
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: It would be funny if he had one of Jack
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: Ruby's twist boards.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, man.
• 38:39
  Speaker 6: That is kind of ironic, actually.
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah. An American novelty in a Soviet hall. He and
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: Titovitz are regular at these gatherings and at groups of
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: young people. Concerts at the Philharmonic continue. Practical jokes with
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: Titovitz lighten the routine of the daily monotony. He is
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: known for socializing at the girls' dorms, turning up without warning.
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: The KGB is watching closely the whole time, bugging surveillance
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: of movements and contacts, but Oswald seems at least partly
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: aware that he is being observed. The monitoring does not
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: stop the nights out, though. It simply forms the quiet backdrop, Joe.
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: Oswald's life is structured, supervised, and short on private luxury.
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: Yet for a young man in his early 20s, there
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: is still room for dances, music, hunting, and a little flirtation,
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: if you will.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: A little.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: Oswald's Minsky years show a young man who found temporary community,
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: factory friends, student parties, dances, hunting trips, and two significant
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: romantic attachments. Yet he could not settle. The friendships with Titovich, Golovovich,
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: the Zeigers, and others were real. The nights of twist lessons,
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: classical concerts, and family New Year's celebrations were real. The
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: rejection by Ella and the rapid marriage to Marina were real.
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: And the reasons for leaving, everyday drabness more than a
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: high theory of ideology, were real. History remembers what came next, though.
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: But for a stretch of time in a Soviet factory city,
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: Lee Harvey Oswald was simply known as Alec the American
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: on the shop floor who went to the dances regularly.
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: chased the girls, and eventually decided that he had had enough, Joe.
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: By early 61, the decision started to form in his head.
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: The diary entry for January 4th through the 31st is blunt.
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: I am stating to reconsider my desire about staying. The
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: work is drab. The money I get has nowhere to
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: be spent. No nightclubs or bowling alleys. No places of
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: recreation except the trade union dances. I have had enough.
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: He's pissed.
• 40:54
  Speaker 6: He's frustrated, yes.
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: Monotony, the lack of consumer and recreational options, compulsory political
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: and collective obligations, and the growing sense of being watched
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: all contribute to Oswald's decision that it's time to come home.
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: The celebrity of being the American wears thin, and Ella's
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: rejection accelerates the shift from vague dissatisfaction to concrete steps.
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: On February 1, 1961, he contacts the U.S. Embassy in
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: Moscow about coming back. That process is delayed by the
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: marriage and Marina's pregnancy, but Soviet authorities raise no major
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: barriers to his exit. He had never formally renounced his U.S.
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: citizenship in a way that blocked a return. And in
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: May of 1962, the family, Oswald, Marina, and little Junie,
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: leave Minsk in the Soviet Union. The experiment is over.
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: What had begun as a search for belonging and ideological
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: purpose ends in boredom, personal disappointment, and a quiet departure
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: back to the country that he had rejected and had
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: rejected him.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: Joseph.
• 41:56
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: All right. And here we have, and I included this
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: picture just for the reason, because we see a happy Oswald, right? Yes,
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: we see a happy Marina Oswald. And look at beautiful
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: little Junie. How cute is that baby, dude?
• 42:16
  Speaker 6: It's pretty cute.
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: How cute is that baby? This is Oswald, his hot
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: little Russian wifey, and his beautiful baby. And you can
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: tell from his smile that it's a feel-good time, right?
• 42:35
  Speaker 6: The honeymoon period, if you will, right? Is that what
• 42:38
  Speaker 6: they call it?
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, no.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: Sorry, the KGB came for me there for a second.
• 43:31
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I figured.
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: God damn.
• 43:34
  Speaker 6: Since we're going into Oswald's actual personality.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: Button, shut him up.
• 43:42
  Speaker 6: Okay, you're back. Okay. Very happy, though. Yes, you can
• 43:49
  Speaker 6: see it.
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. So, look at all those comments. Oh,
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: here's heavy breathing. Yeah, that's Joe.
• 44:01
  Speaker 6: I think I was sighing about the lag, which happens
• 44:07
  Speaker 6: when you live pod every week. And I wanted to
• 44:10
  Speaker 6: highlight this comment. I was going to ask if you
• 44:16
  Speaker 6: guys ever get a holiday. I've been without from Owen Smith.
• 44:20
  Speaker 6: I've been with the channel for nine, 10 months now,
• 44:23
  Speaker 6: and I am sure you guys don't break much. No,
• 44:26
  Speaker 6: we will be three weeks, three years strong this coming November.
• 44:34
  Speaker 6: We are pre-recorded one episode, and we will continue to
• 44:38
  Speaker 6: bring you good information every week. But we love hanging
• 44:42
  Speaker 6: out with you guys, and that's why we do it.
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we do get a little break here and there,
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: and we take them when we can get them, but
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: we still want to keep the show going.
• 44:54
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: In this day and age and in this profession, you
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: can't just take a week or two off because your
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: channel will plummet to the bottom if you're not releasing something. So,
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: you know, we try to keep... Like, if we know
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: we're not going to be here, like we know Joe's
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: not going to be here next week, we already pre-recorded
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: an episode for... We're going to drop live on Friday
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: night with a great guest and things like that. So,
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: you know, I'll get a night off next week because...
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: It's pre-recorded. Joe will be in Italy, chilling.
• 45:32
  Speaker 6: Eating some mozzarella. Yeah, but we do, but we love it,
• 45:38
  Speaker 6: and that's why we do it. And Sally is turning
• 45:40
  Speaker 6: into our local low-nutter here. Answers like a psychopath. This
• 45:45
  Speaker 6: is 30 minutes ago, so she's talking about your clip.
• 45:50
  Speaker 6: He goes, that ain't a regular dude. Gave himself away.
• 45:55
  Speaker 6: I don't think so. I think they were role playing
• 45:57
  Speaker 6: and having fun. I, I really don't think so. Uh,
• 46:01
  Speaker 6: and just want to say hi to, uh, uh, Mrs. Jess. Hello. Hello.
• 46:08
  Speaker 6: Happy belated birthday. I didn't wish you one, but, uh, uh, yeah,
• 46:14
  Speaker 6: I did. You did. You, you went over the top.
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: Because I care about Jess, Joe.
• 46:19
  Speaker 6: I do too, man.
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: We love Jess here.
• 46:21
  Speaker 6: We do. We do. She's amazing. So, um, Let's, before we,
• 46:26
  Speaker 6: let me see. I had to look up the word
• 46:31
  Speaker 6: Gumars before I posted on X. Okay, so let me
• 46:35
  Speaker 6: explain this. Gumar, Gumara, is kind of like an Italian
• 46:40
  Speaker 6: word for a side piece. So although not all the
• 46:43
  Speaker 6: girls were like side pieces, as in like he was
• 46:47
  Speaker 6: getting with other girls when he was with Verena, which
• 46:51
  Speaker 6: would be the technical definition of a Gumar, We're just
• 46:54
  Speaker 6: talking about women he got with, but we just used
• 46:58
  Speaker 6: the Italian-American Northeast slang for it, if you will.
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: It's akin to Scafusa.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: Gumars and Scafusas.
• 47:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: But, yeah, so that's it for me for now, Joe.
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: And I do have some conspiracy linkage. Wow, Oswald is
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: a mess, but I will bring that in at the
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: tail end. And I will turn it over to you, sir,
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: so you can tell us a little bit more about
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: Oswald's Gumaz.
• 47:29
  Speaker 6: If you will. Sure. Hey, Tiny, how are you? We
• 47:34
  Speaker 6: are doing well, and this is a fun show. We're
• 47:36
  Speaker 6: having fun here tonight. We hope you are well. Why
• 47:40
  Speaker 6: don't you put that up, Rob, and we will get
• 47:43
  Speaker 6: right into it.
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: Booyah!
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Joseph?
• 47:48
  Speaker 6: Oh, yeah. So I am going to read from a
• 47:52
  Speaker 6: commission exhibit. I have the number in the next slide here.
• 47:56
  Speaker 6: But before, I wanted to follow up on some of
• 48:00
  Speaker 6: what he talked about, the Zigers, because I believe he was,
• 48:03
  Speaker 6: I don't want to say an elite, but he was
• 48:10
  Speaker 6: in the higher echelon of Russian society. Would you agree
• 48:15
  Speaker 6: with that? I mean, he had like 40 people at
• 48:18
  Speaker 6: his daughter's birthday party or something.
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: Well, he was a Soviet Jew, Joe, so yes, he
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: was in the upper echelon.
• 48:26
  Speaker 6: Here we go.
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: Soviet society, yes.
• 48:30
  Speaker 6: A Bolshevik. Yes, we are going to May 1960. Oswald
• 48:35
  Speaker 6: was beginning to show signs of disillusionment with life in
• 48:40
  Speaker 6: the Soviet Union. At least this is what... Hold on,
• 48:44
  Speaker 6: let me... I'm reading this on a small screen. At
• 48:48
  Speaker 6: least this is what remarks in his diary would indicate.
• 48:52
  Speaker 6: In one entry, he said that on May 1960, May Day,
• 48:55
  Speaker 6: like you talked about earlier, at a party given to
• 48:58
  Speaker 6: the Zeiger girls for some 40 guests, Alexander Zeiger advised
• 49:05
  Speaker 6: him to go back to the United States. Oswald then
• 49:08
  Speaker 6: commented in his diary, It's the first voice of opposition
• 49:12
  Speaker 6: I have heard. I respect Zeiger. He has seen the world.
• 49:17
  Speaker 6: He says many things and relates many things I do
• 49:19
  Speaker 6: not know about the USSR. You should go home.
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: We don't want you here.
• 49:27
  Speaker 6: I mean, he might have been giving him, like, genuine advice.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 49:32
  Speaker 6: I begin to feel uneasy inside, Oswald writes.
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we call that a heads up. Just between me
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: and you, son. Let me tell you something.
• 49:42
  Speaker 6: I don't want his life. It didn't work out for him.
• 49:46
  Speaker 6: And when we get to this article that I'm going
• 49:48
  Speaker 6: to share and read in a second, we're going to
• 49:51
  Speaker 6: see what and opine on what he could have possibly,
• 49:57
  Speaker 6: how history could have changed if Oswald actually stayed in
• 50:00
  Speaker 6: Russia and married his original Gumar. Yes. Woman of choice,
• 50:08
  Speaker 6: let's put it that way. Oswald mentions specifically that the
• 50:11
  Speaker 6: Zeiger's daughters, Leonora and Anita, and Anita's boyfriend, Alfred, or Alfred,
• 50:20
  Speaker 6: a silent, brooding Hungarian, which is funny, were present at
• 50:24
  Speaker 6: the party. June 1960. A diary entry under this date
• 50:33
  Speaker 6: records Oswald's infatuation with Ella Germann. And this, put this
• 50:40
  Speaker 6: in your head, guys, because this is probably the most
• 50:46
  Speaker 6: consequential woman in Lee Harvey Oswald's life other than Marina.
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: Yes, if she had not spurned his ass, history would
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: have taken a whole different turn.
• 50:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think so. Whom he met when she came
• 51:00
  Speaker 6: to work at the radio factory at an unspecified date.
• 51:04
  Speaker 6: So they worked together.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: And, you know, listen.
• 51:10
  Speaker 6: When you're young and you work with young people of
• 51:13
  Speaker 6: the opposite sex, things happen. You know, feelings develop.
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: There's a tingling in my loins, Joe, when I look
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: at her.
• 51:25
  Speaker 6: Oswald fell head over heels for this woman. Oswald related
• 51:29
  Speaker 6: that he fell in love with her the first minute
• 51:33
  Speaker 6: he saw her. And this is, of course, according to
• 51:36
  Speaker 6: his diary, which... I believe it's in Russian, but this
• 51:39
  Speaker 6: is kind of translated. He continued to remain on friendly
• 51:43
  Speaker 6: terms with her throughout 1960 and up until shortly after,
• 51:47
  Speaker 6: after she rejected his proposal of marriage on January 2, 1961.
• 51:52
  Speaker 6: So we're getting a little further here. Now, this is
• 51:58
  Speaker 6: Commission Document 321. If anyone wants to look that up
• 52:03
  Speaker 6: and read it, it's on Mary Farrell or just Google it.
• 52:06
  Speaker 6: According to the diary, this is October 1960, Oswald celebrated
• 52:10
  Speaker 6: his birthday at a small party at his apartment. Oh,
• 52:13
  Speaker 6: he's hosting. And you guys are going to love this
• 52:17
  Speaker 6: pronunciation of mine here. Rosa Kuznetsova. I think I did
• 52:25
  Speaker 6: well there.
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: Not bad.
• 52:27
  Speaker 6: Pavel. You did that before. I've heard worse. And Ella German.
• 52:32
  Speaker 6: were specifically mentioned as participants. Ella is described as a
• 52:36
  Speaker 6: Russian Jew who worked at the radio factory. Right? They
• 52:39
  Speaker 6: worked in the same building.
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: Of course she is. Conspiracy or coincidence?
• 52:46
  Speaker 6: You never know. All right. Actually, Rob, I'm going to
• 52:49
  Speaker 6: stop sharing this. Take this down because I want to
• 52:52
  Speaker 6: read the article about Ella German.
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: Do you have a picture of this chick? Somebody wants
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: to see her picture.
• 52:58
  Speaker 6: I can't find it.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: I had a picture of her. I... Jamie, I got it.
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: Don't worry, Joe. You keep going. I'll find, I'll dig
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: up the picture of Ella.
• 53:08
  Speaker 6: All right. I'm going to stop sharing this and I'm
• 53:11
  Speaker 6: going to share my new screen here. Joey tabs over here.
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: Because I had it and I was like, well, Joe's
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: doing all the Kumar. So I don't need it.
• 53:23
  Speaker 6: I just couldn't confirm it was her. So I didn't
• 53:25
  Speaker 6: really like want to put it up. If it wasn't,
• 53:27
  Speaker 6: I did that last week with the, JM Wave guy,
• 53:30
  Speaker 6: Gordon Campbell, right? It wasn't even his picture. Well, you
• 53:35
  Speaker 6: gotta admit when you're wrong, right? It happens. So, this
• 53:45
  Speaker 6: is an article in the Tablet, which I have no
• 53:48
  Speaker 6: idea what that is, by, oh, this is the guy
• 53:53
  Speaker 6: you talked about earlier, Peter Sevelinik.
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: Peter Svodnik, yes, the interloper. Yes, the author, right.
• 54:04
  Speaker 6: On October 11, 2013, Rob, we should probably should save
• 54:09
  Speaker 6: this off air. We should see if he's still alive
• 54:11
  Speaker 6: and have him on. That would be fascinating.
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: Unless he has a thick Russian accent.
• 54:19
  Speaker 6: Yes, that would be like, what did you say? And
• 54:21
  Speaker 6: the title of this is.
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: Do what, sir?
• 54:25
  Speaker 6: Could a Jewish beauty have saved Kennedy by marrying Lee
• 54:30
  Speaker 6: Harvey Oswald in Minsk? Ella German declined Oswald's proposal, putting
• 54:35
  Speaker 6: him on course to return to the U.S., where he
• 54:39
  Speaker 6: would assassinate the president. So he might be a lone
• 54:42
  Speaker 6: nutter based on that description, but who knows?
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: All right, Joe, I've got her.
• 54:49
  Speaker 6: Oh, you got her?
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: I got her.
• 54:51
  Speaker 6: Hang on. That's what he said.
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: So everybody say hello to Ella German or Jermaine or
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: German or however you say her name. Here she is
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: with Lee Harvey Oswald on the rocks.
• 55:10
  Speaker 6: You have to put it up. Oh, there you go. Oh, no.
• 55:13
  Speaker 6: You still have to put it up. What?
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: You can't see it?
• 55:16
  Speaker 6: No.
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: Oh, that's because yours is in the way.
• 55:20
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: There you go, folks. This is Ella. She looks a
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: little bit like Marina.
• 55:27
  Speaker 6: I was just about to say that and not to.
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: That's why I think that picture that I showed earlier may,
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: might not be Marina. It might be this chick.
• 55:40
  Speaker 6: It could be. That's an interesting theory. Now we got
• 55:48
  Speaker 6: a Marina and me thing.
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: Um, Yeah, you know, I don't know why Oswald was
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: so infatuated with her. He fell in love at first
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: sight with her, but, you know, she might have had
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: a nice ass or something. I mean, who knows? This
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: is just me being a pig. But that is Ella, folks.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: Wow, wow.
• 56:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I personally would have preferred Marina, but
• 56:15
  Speaker 6: to each his own, as they say, right?
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, to each their own. Whatever floats your little boat
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: down there, you know?
• 56:23
  Speaker 6: Uh-huh. Let me get my tabs ready here. Joey Tabs.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:30
  Speaker 6: It was evening when Lee Harvey Oswald stepped off a
• 56:34
  Speaker 6: train in Minsk on January 7, 1960. The American did
• 56:39
  Speaker 6: not know where he was except that it was called Minsk.
• 56:43
  Speaker 6: He had been in Russia for three months and believed
• 56:45
  Speaker 6: he had defected to the Soviet Union. Just 20 years old,
• 56:49
  Speaker 6: he was at the start of a long spiral that
• 56:52
  Speaker 6: would eventually take him back to the United States and
• 56:55
  Speaker 6: to a window in the Texas schoolbook depository overlooking President
• 57:00
  Speaker 6: Kennedy's motorcade. But for now, Oswald was a young, rootless
• 57:04
  Speaker 6: man in search of a place to call home. And
• 57:07
  Speaker 6: this was where the Soviet authorities had sent him to
• 57:10
  Speaker 6: find it. Officially, there had been a city called Minsk
• 57:15
  Speaker 6: since the 11th century. but the place Oswald found was
• 57:20
  Speaker 6: really only 15 years old. The old Minsk had been
• 57:23
  Speaker 6: flattened by the Germans after they invaded the Soviet Union
• 57:26
  Speaker 6: in 1941. There had been a huge Jewish community in
• 57:30
  Speaker 6: Minsk for centuries. Before the war, it had included writers, artists, musicians,
• 57:35
  Speaker 6: university professors, and party officials. In the center of the city,
• 57:40
  Speaker 6: the Germans walled off a ghetto for the Jewish people,
• 57:45
  Speaker 6: built a concentration camp. I'm going to skip this stuff.
• 57:49
  Speaker 6: In the years immediately after the war, villagers from across
• 57:52
  Speaker 6: the smoldering Belarusian plain steamed into what was left of
• 57:56
  Speaker 6: the city. They rebuilt what had been an old, crammed, medieval,
• 58:01
  Speaker 6: czarist trading center as a model communist city.
• 58:05
  Speaker 4: Hey, you're still on the page there, homie.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, let me....
• 58:19
  Speaker 6: Ah, Joey Debs.
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: There you go.
• 58:25
  Speaker 6: All right, so you messed me up when you messed
• 58:28
  Speaker 6: up my screen share.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, no.
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: Don't blame it on me.
• 58:32
  Speaker 6: I don't know. Oswald was given an apartment on Kalanina.
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: Ulitza.
• 58:42
  Speaker 6: Thank you. And a job at a factory making televisions.
• 58:46
  Speaker 6: But it took him until April or May to make
• 58:48
  Speaker 6: his first friend, a Jewish woman named Ella German. At
• 58:53
  Speaker 6: that time, she was a... Oh, man.
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: Montagnista.
• 58:57
  Speaker 6: There you go. Or fitter. On the first floor of
• 59:02
  Speaker 6: the experimental department of the television factory. Oswald fell for
• 59:06
  Speaker 6: the German almost immediately. For a sorry. It is ironic
• 59:12
  Speaker 6: that her name, she's Jewish and her name is German,
• 59:15
  Speaker 6: but whatever. In this diary, he wrote, Ella Germain, a
• 59:21
  Speaker 6: silky black-haired Jewish beauty with fine dark eyes, skin as
• 59:27
  Speaker 6: white as snow, a beautiful smile, and good, but unpredictable nature.
• 59:32
  Speaker 6: Her only fault was that at 24, she was still
• 59:36
  Speaker 6: a virgin. Which I might argue is not really a fault,
• 59:41
  Speaker 6: unless you're, like, just trying to, you know, get it in.
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: Oswald said she ain't gonna be a virgin for long
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: after I get a hold of it.
• 59:52
  Speaker 6: I don't know if they actually had it. Let's put
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 6: it nicely here in case there are some kids watching
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 6: in the background and do entirely.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: I doubt they did. I think she was a very
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: virtuous girl.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 6: And, you know, you know, and it goes back to
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 6: the same old thing in time. Like when you want
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 6: a girl and you're infatuated with her and she does
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 6: not want you, does that make you want her more
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 6: or less? In my experience, it's more.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, to a point. And then it gets ugly. You
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: get a little bitter.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: Like, bitch, you know, I've been doing all this for you,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: and you.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 6: Still don't want me? Right. But I guess it depends
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 6: on the person.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: I don't see anybody else paying you any attention except
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: for me. Lee Harvey Alec. Lee Harvey Alec.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 6: Alec, yes. And I guess it depends on the person,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 6: of course, the suitor, if you will. I met her
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 6: when she came to work. At our factory, I noticed
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 6: her and perhaps fell in love with her the first
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 6: minute I saw her. Ella was the first woman he
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 6: had fallen for. He probably felt more strongly about her
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 6: than any other woman he had ever met, including the
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 6: woman he eventually married, Marina Prusakova. And it was his
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 6: eventual break with her that would force him, more than
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 6: anything else, to reassess his desire to make a life
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 6: in the Soviet Union and return to the United States.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 6: I take a little... I don't agree with all that sentence.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 6: I think Oswalt would have probably gotten bored eventually. And
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 6: I think the fact that Marina really wanted to kind
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 6: of get out of there, right? You talk about her
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 6: not having parents. I think that kind of contributed to it, right?
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 4: Although it would suck to go to work every day
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 4: at the factory and have to look at this chick
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: that's burning your advances.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 6: And we're going to see that in his diary.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: While she's giggling to her girlfriend. It's like.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 6: Rob, you must have read his diary because he alludes
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 6: to this. Soon, Oswald and German were eating lunch together
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 6: most days. Alec could go at any time, said German,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 6: who now lives in Akko, north of Haifa in Israel.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 6: So I guess in 2013, she's still alive and she's
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 6: living in Israel, which is interesting. Let's get her on
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 6: the show. He was not touched... because he was American.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 6: He was in a special position, not like all of
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 6: our workers. He can go earlier, so I wouldn't have
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 6: to stand in line, and he could grab two lunches
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 6: for himself and me, and we would sit together. Germain
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 6: said that. From the moment she met Oswald, she thought
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 6: he was curious, and she was keenly aware of the
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 6: differences between them. He was obviously very different from anyone
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 6: I'd ever met, she said. When she spoke about him
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 6: in our interview, she didn't sound as if she missed him.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 6: She was more detached. Oswald was an oddity, mostly because
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 6: she had never expected to meet an American. She was
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 6: born in Minsk, 1937, and like many other Soviet Jews,
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 6: she stressed that she was born into a Jewish family,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 6: the same way that others said they were born into Russian, Ukrainian,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 6: or Armenian families. When the Germans came in 1941, Ella
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 6: and her grandparents... in Mogilev, southeast of Minsk, while her
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 6: brother was in Minsk, her grandmother had come to Minsk, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 6: After the Germans occupied... Okay, we're going to skip this.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 6: We're just going in our background here, which isn't completely relevant.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 6: Even though Oswald had embraced the principles of communist revolution,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 6: he was, by the fall of 1960, beginning to wonder
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 6: whether he belonged in the Soviet Union. Minsk only had
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 6: so much to offer, and he had by then heard
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 6: plenty of criticism of the regime, but Oswald was still
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 6: in pursuit of Ella Germain. He was having other affairs,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 6: but Ella was more innocent, and therefore more, uh, belligent
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 6: to him. I'd butcher that, I'm sure. She was also Jewish,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 6: which he made note of twice in his diary, and
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 6: one suspect found rather exotic. I could relate to that.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 6: Germain said she was unaware at first that Oswald had
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 6: been seeing other women. She called them, quote, girls, unquote,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 6: but she found out later. This was when their relationship
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 6: became more serious, at least in Oswald's eyes, in the
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 6: late summer and fall of 1960. Probably, like a man,
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 6: he needed that, Germain said. Quote, I just learned about
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 6: this at the end of October at this party, and
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 6: we spoke about it often, and there were several quarrels
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 6: about it. Of course, I was aggravated that he didn't
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 6: tell me the truth. I was offended. Right after that,
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 6: I started not to trust him so much. So, Oswald's
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 6: playing the field. She did not like that. Translation. On
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 6: January 1st, 1961, Oswald wrote, New Year's, I spent at home...
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 6: of Ella Drummond. I think I'm in love with her.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 6: She has refused my more dishonorable advances. We drink and eat.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 6: That's so funny that he wrote that. We drink and
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 6: eat in the presence of her family in a very
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 6: hospitable atmosphere. Later I go home drunk and happy. And
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 6: that's interesting because later Oswald was not much of a drinker,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 6: but I believe in his Atsugi and I guess Russian days,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 6: I mean, What are you going to do? You're in Russia.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 6: You're going to drink. He was more of a drinker.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 6: Passing the river homewards, I decided to propose to Ella.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 6: Oswald appears to be serious here. He comes across in
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 6: his diary as a little impulsive or perhaps taken with himself,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 6: but he had known Ella for several months and it
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 6: was not uncommon for people at that time to marry
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 6: in their 20s. Germain had not been expecting Oswald on
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 6: New Year's Eve. They had made plans to spend the
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 6: holiday together But then they quarreled and got into a fight.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 6: A little past eight in the evening, he turned about
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 6: our house with a box of chocolates with a ceramic
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 6: figurine on top.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 6: Nice. Bring in the game, Lee. Bring in the game.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: I like it.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 6: Germaine asked her mother if he could spend New Year's
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 6: Eve with them, and her mother said, of course. Of course.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 6: Everyone was there. Ella's mother, her grandmother, her uncles, Boris,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 6: Ilya and Alexandra, and each of their wives, Lida, Shura,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 6: and Luba. Germán' s mother sang and played guitar, and everyone danced.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 6: Two of her uncles were in the Navy, I'm guessing
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 6: that's the Russian Navy, and they had learned to dance
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 6: the Chiquita, the folk dance that involves tap dancing while
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 6: maintaining a perfect erect back. sure there's a joke there
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 6: somewhere alec liked it very much german recall.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: The famous dance you know folks where you cross your
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 4: arms in front of you and you have your back
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 4: erect and you kind of you kind of get down
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 4: on your knee not on your knees but you bend
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: at the knees and you go from one foot to
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: the other kicking your foot out in.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 6: Front of you yeah yeah yeah i don't know.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 4: You know but Did you see Lee fucking doing that, man?
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 5: I would love to see that.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 4: Like John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 6: Yeah, Tinovitz, where are you with your video camera?
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: Damn it. He's hammered.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: He's drunk.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 6: He drank heavily that night. And for the first time ever,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 6: I saw him drunk. So he's probably just vibing.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: Cut loose.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 4: Cut loose.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 6: Her mother served meat and cutlets with potatoes, cabbage salad,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 6: and carrots with sour cream. That sounds pretty good, actually.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 6: It does.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: Good drinking food.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 6: The day after New Year's, Oswald saw Ella again. In
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 6: his diary, Oswald wrote, After a pleasant hand-in-hand walk to
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 6: the local cinema, we come home, standing at the doorstep.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 6: I propose. She hesitates, then refuses. My love is real,
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 6: but she is none for me. This is Oswald speaking. Writings.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 6: Her reason behind besides lack of love I am American
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 6: and someday might be arrested Simply because of that example
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 6: of the Polish intervention 20 is led to arrest of
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 6: all people in the Soviet Union of Polish origin you
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 6: understand the world situation. There is too much against you
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 6: and you don't even know it. I am stunned. She
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 6: snickers at my awkwardness, spelled wrong, in turning to go.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: Poor Alec.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I feel bad for him.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, not.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 6: I mean, not really, as we'll get to. German's fretting
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 6: about a Polish intervention feels forced, to say the least,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 6: viewed in this way at the end of a relationship
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 6: like the U2 incident and the election of a young
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 6: American president, that would be JFK, was a function of
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 6: global forces, not personal ones. But the truth is, she
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 6: did not love him when I met her. Ellis said that,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 6: above all, she was surprised and bewildered by Oswald's proposal.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 6: She did not know why he cared about her so deeply.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 6: Oswalt seemed to grasp this. As he put in his diary,
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 6: I realize she was never serious with me, but only
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 6: exploited my being an American in order to get the
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 6: envy of other girls who considered me different from the
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 6: Russian boys. I am miserable. End quote. That is Oswalt. So,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 6: when we go back, talk about how Oswalt was like
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 6: a rare commodity, right? Yep. A mysterious foreigner. Uh, I
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 6: guess he's kind of saying, like, she used him for that,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 6: and he fell for her, probably based on her rejections,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 6: and he's like, oh, I need her, by the next day,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 6: his anger had subsided, but his unhappiness had acquired a
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 6: more hopeless undertone, in his diary, he wrote, I am
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 6: miserable about Ella, I love her, but what can I do,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 6: it is in the state of fear, which was always
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 6: in the Soviet Union, um, Oswald had closed out 1960,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 6: holding on to some of his early affection for Russia,
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 6: and in fact New Year's Eve at Ella's house had
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 6: left him with a warm and romantic feeling, not only
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 6: for German, but also for Russia. It's true, he had
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 6: grown weary of the Soviet Union and daily life in Minsk,
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 6: but he had not determined just yet it was time
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 6: to go. By asking for German's hand, Oswald was signaling
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 6: his willingness to stay, but she had said no. And
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 6: almost immediately after that, all the doubts and angers that
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 6: had been convalescing inside his head for the past several
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 6: months sharpened into a desire to leave. Which I don't
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 6: 100% agree with, but okay. Then we're going to get
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 6: into Marina, but I just wanted to read that part.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 6: You can take this down, Rob. I'm going to put
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 6: back up my PowerPoint here. Joey Tabs over here.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 4: JT!
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 6: I like that. There might be a merch idea here.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 6: So let's get back to Oswald's diary. And I think,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 6: just actually before I put it up, I guess to
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 6: address the question that is in the title of the article,
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 6: would JFK... you know what could this beautiful Jewish beauty
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 6: could have saved JFK in a sense I say yes
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 6: but also in a sense I say no I think
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 6: the forces were coming on him no matter what and
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 6: if it wasn't Lee it would have been some other
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 6: skafooza I don't know.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 4: Come back to the U.S. or convince Ella to come
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 4: back to the U.S. and it just would have been
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 4: Ella Instead of Marina.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 6: No, let's just say he stayed there.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 4: You can't... Would... I mean, you can say that, but
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 4: it's not a realistic ambition.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 6: No, we're dancing in the hypothetical here.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: Or you could say, you know, just plug Marina in,
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 4: or plug Ella into Marina's role, and say even if
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 4: he had come back with Ella, would Would things have
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 4: went down the way it did?
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 6: Probably not. No, probably not. But I'm saying would the
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 6: forces that were against JFK would have eventually caught up
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 6: with him, regardless of if we left or stayed in Russia? Maybe.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 4: We just don't know the answer to that question.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 6: Right. It's a fascinating thing to throw around in your head, right?
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, of course. To speculate about these different scenarios, coulda, shoulda, woulda,
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 4: been a.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: You know, would things have been different? Maybe.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 6: They definitely would have been different, but would the end
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 6: result have been different? As in JFK assassinated, is what
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 6: I'm trying to think about.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 4: Quite possible. You just wouldn't have... Old Oswald as the
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 4: hapless lone nut patsy.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: You might have had Bill Frazier as the hapless lone
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 4: nut patsy. Who knows? Or, insert name here, you know,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 4: of whoever.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 6: Right. You know, you can go to some of the
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 6: alleged patsies in Chicago or Tampa or Thomas Valley.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 4: You didn't have to have a patsy. to pin it on,
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 4: but it certainly made things a lot easier to get
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 4: away with.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 4: But even if there wasn't Oswald at all in the
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 4: school book depository that day and there was nobody at
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 4: all working in that building you could tie anything to
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 4: and somebody just got in there and disappeared, does it
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 4: really change things any differently as to who we can
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 4: figure out was behind it?
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 6: No. No.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: You know? Right.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 4: So you don't need a patsy, but it certainly makes
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 4: things easier you know, when you're trying to get away
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: with something, when you have somebody, some dupe that you
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 4: can pin everything on, you know, and take the hit.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 6: I'm saying it's, there's no doubt that if he stayed there,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 6: things would have gone down differently. My point is, would
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 6: the end result, granted, if it was in November of
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 6: 63 or later or whatever, been different? And I'm not sure.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 6: Of course, no one's sure.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 4: But, Look, at that point, maybe, and if it's the
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 4: forces that we think might have been behind the assassination,
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 4: could they have possibly tried to wait things out another
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 4: year until re-election and just try to influence the votes
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 4: that way to get Kennedy out of office? You know,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 4: but Again, then it's going to be Goldwater or LBJ
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 4: or whoever. You know, I don't know.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think he was way on his way to re-election.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 6: I think that was like....
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, pretty much guaranteed at that point, yeah.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so... Alright, put my pee-pee back up.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 4: Mmm, I love it when I get to see your pee-pee.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 6: It's not as cool as yours. Not as cool as
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 6: your pee-pee.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 4: That's because mine's a BSD, baby.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 6: We knew there was going to be some inappropriateness on
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 6: this episode just based on the topic, but let's go
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 6: to his next goomah, Rob, since we covered Ella a lot.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 6: The diary entry, October 21st, 1960.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 4: Come for the information and stay for the entertainment. That's
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 4: the tagline here.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 6: We try to make reading documents fun. What do you
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 6: want me to discuss?
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 4: Otherwise, it's very boring. But yes, go ahead.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 6: The diary entry for this date records Oswald's conquest. of
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 6: Anna Tachina a girl from Riga studying at the music
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 6: conservatory in Minsk Oswald had first met her at the
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 6: Zegers Rob and had progressively and became progressively closer to
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 6: her in October of 1960 culminating in an affair on
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 6: October 21st 1960 and I don't know In what context
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 6: they're using affair here, if she was with someone else?
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 6: Because Oswald definitely wasn't at this time.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 4: No, I think they're just saying that they were getting together.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 4: So they banged four or five times in a period
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 4: of two weeks, allegedly, according to the diary.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 6: Yeah. After four or five.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 6: They were living in sin, Rob. After four or five
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 6: rendezvous with Tachina, they parted on this date, according to
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 6: the diary... This is November 4th, 1960, so that's like
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 6: two weeks after.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 4: Good thing Oswald's pull-out game was strong. That's all I
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 4: can say. Except with Marina.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 6: Allegedly. Allegedly.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 4: There might be some little Oswalds running around Tiberia somewhere,
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 4: wherever the hell this bitch is. We just don't know.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 6: Imagine that. Upon completing her last year at the conservatory,
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 6: date not given, she returned to Riga. Rob, Jamie, can
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 6: you see where Riga is? Because I have no idea
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 6: where that is.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 6: Hold.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 4: I said Siberia.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 6: Yeah. I feel like it's probably in that direction.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 4: It's the capital of Latvia.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 6: Oh, interesting. Yeah. I did not know that.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 4: It's in the Baltic states. So kind of close by Minsk.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 4: or Belarus if.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 6: You will but right a little west right yeah yeah
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 6: yeah November 15th 1960 Oswald recorded under the state that
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 6: he had met four girls who lived in he's crushing
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 6: here he is smashing from the foreign language institute which
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 6: in Minsk which you alluded to They were Nell, Korokoba, Tonka, Tommy,
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 6: and Allah. I think I did okay.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 4: Ladies, ladies, Alec has no more seed left. You must
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 4: give Alec a break here. I'm going to need about
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 4: two hours to recover, ladies.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 6: So I'm not looking at the chat, but if Scott's
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 6: in the chat, you better have a comment on the
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 6: night here. If not, I'll be disappointed in you. Oswald
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 6: usually went there with his friend, Eric Titov. So that's Titovitz.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 6: But they, in his diary in the Warren Commission exhibit,
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 6: this is how they spell his name for whatever reason.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 6: I don't know. A fourth year student at the Medical Institute.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 6: And by the way, if you want to YouTube Titovitz,
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 6: he has spoken at a few conferences. And I saw
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 6: like three or four And I just, like, vaguely browsed it.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 6: And his accent is heavy, for sure. But it is interesting.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 6: It is interesting. I have to say that.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 4: I think Ocelli had him on, like, 12 years ago.
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 4: If you can dig up that episode out of the archives.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 6: Oh. I didn't know that. December 1960. Oswalt related in
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 6: his diary of an affair with Nell Korokova. So that's
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 6: one of those four girls. who he had met sometime
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 6: around the 1st of November, and whom he noticed only
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 6: after he severed relations with Ena Tachima. So we're on
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 6: Gumar number three now, allegedly. Although there's... I'm sure there
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 6: was more, but this is what's in the official story. Now.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 4: I'm looking ahead a little bit. Go ahead.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 6: Where are you looking ahead to?
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 4: This next sentence you're about to read.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 6: Was described as, quote, rather plain looking and frighteningly large.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 4: Oswald was a chubby chaser. Hey, big girl, come here.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 4: We got many of y'all back in America.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 6: I mean, listen, I mean, being a little, like, not large,
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 6: but like, you know.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 4: You know what they say about fat girls and mopeds,
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 4: don't you, Joe?
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 6: I don't. What do they say down there in the South?
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 4: Oh, they're both fun to ride, but you don't want
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 4: your friends to see you on one.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 6: God, we're going to get so shadowbanned here.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: No.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 6: No. January 2nd, 1961, Oswald Diary indicated that he proposed
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 6: to Ella, right? Didn't he say he did it on
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 6: New Year's Eve or the day after? Or the day after,
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 6: I believe.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: Or Jermaine.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 6: Jermaine. on the doorstep of her home on January 2nd, 61,
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 6: and she rejected his proposal, saying she did not love him.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 6: She feared Americans might be arrested someday. Note, subsequent entries
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 6: in the diary indicate that he was very depressed by
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 6: this rejection and had not fully recovered from it until
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 6: after his marriage with Marina in April 61. In the
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 6: next diary entry, Oswald commented that he was miserable about Ella.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 6: I love her, but what can I do? What are
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 6: you going to do?
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 4: What can I do?
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 6: It is the state of fear, oh, we already read that,
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 6: which was always in the Soviet Union. And, listen, I
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 6: can agree with that, right? Like, you gotta think twice
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 6: as a Russian woman marrying an American at that time.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 4: And look, Oswald also had to know, like I said before,
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 4: in the back of his mind, that they're probably watching
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 4: everything that he does.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 4: So he's got to kind of tiptoe through the tulips
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 4: while doing all this stuff. He's just he's falsely defecting
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 4: over to Russia, and he's plowing through all these Russian chicks.
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 4: They're probably like, what is this guy doing?
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 6: I feel like, I mean, listen, I think by default,
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 6: they had to watch him. Of course. They had to
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 6: wiretap his apartment, like, by default. Like, no way around it, 100%.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 4: Right, right.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 6: But at some point, they were probably like, this guy's
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 6: just a fucking scuffle. You know what I mean?
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 4: He's just a coon hound.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 6: Or he's just like a fool, you know? The dude
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 6: that states a protest at the radio factory thing. First
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 6: person to ever do that, right? Because you can't get
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 6: a Russian to do that. Or else it's off to Siberia. But,
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 6: you know what I mean? They were probably like, Oy vey,
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 6: what's up with this guy? Like, he's just... Well, they put.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 4: Him somewhere that was really not strategic militarily.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 4: So, you know, even though, yeah, he had cameras, yeah,
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 4: he was taking pictures, and yeah, he was drawing little
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 4: maps in his little historic diary and all this, you know,
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 4: there really wasn't much information, if he was a spy,
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 4: that he could convey back to anybody, either clandestinely or
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 4: after he came home. So that was part of the
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 4: reason they put him in Minsk, because it was, you know,
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 4: like a black hole, you know? Like, there was just
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 4: nothing there.
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 6: Right, and even if you believe, and I'm not sure
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 6: what I think about this 100% either, but even if
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 6: you believe some of his letters and description of the
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 6: lifestyle in Minsk was some type of, like, operational report,
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 6: it's not getting much, like, it's not, you know, it's
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 6: not a surprise to anyone.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, like, Minsk had been destroyed, like, 20
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 4: years earlier than, if not a little before 20 years earlier,
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 4: World War II.
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 4: And they had been slowly rebuilding Minsk up on the
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 4: ashes of the former Minsk. So it wasn't a gigantic,
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 4: sprawling city-state at this time either. It's a nice place
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 4: because they're rebuilding Minsk, But there's, like he said, there's
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 4: just not a lot to do there, man, you know?
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 6: I mean, Oswald was, like we said, easily bored. So
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 6: in a place like that, you could see where he
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 6: kind of, where fate would take him in a sense.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 6: January 1961, a diary entry bearing the states states, I
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 6: am stating to reconsider my desire about staying. He noted
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 6: that the work was drab and that there was no
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 6: recreational facilities on which to spend his money. I have
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 6: had enough, end quote. This is the first recorded expression
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 6: of Oswald's diminishing enthusiasm for life in the Soviet Union.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 6: Of course, Zeiger's told them that a year before, or
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 6: told them to leave.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 4: Yes, he asked, are we sure his diary isn't just
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 4: full of shit? Not sure I believe any of his
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 4: conquest stories. I don't know, Sally. I mean, you got,
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 4: you got to remember, okay, this guy's an anomaly. He's,
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 4: he's something different. You know, I mean, imagine if, if
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 4: Chris Hemsworth, you know, in his, in his luscious Australian
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 4: accent comes into town and nobody's ever seen an Australian before.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 4: And they're like, Oh my God.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: Oh my God.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 4: You know, they're just melting. Uh, you know, but in reality,
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 4: back in Australia, you know, Chris Hemsworth is a dork, but, uh,
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 4: In Minsk, you know, he's a Viking god.
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 4: Not the best of comparisons here because Lee Harvey Oswald
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 4: is no Chris Hemsworth, but you get the point.
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, and to go back to the picture
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 6: of him right in the middle, right, not in the
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 6: back corner, not on the side, the middle, sunglasses, he
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 6: has swag at that point. And I think he kind
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 6: of rode with it.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: In a sense.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you know, even if you have some
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 4: swag and you can just talk.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 6: A little bit.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 4: And you have money and an apartment.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 6: I don't know even where to spend my money.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 4: I'll just give it to you, baby.
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 6: I'll buy you candy. Like, so yeah, let's go to
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 6: Marina now after his conquest of the previous Gumata. According
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 6: to the diary, on this date, Oswald met Marina Nikolaevna Pruskova,
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 6: the Russian girl he was to marry less than two
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 6: months later. The diary records that they met at a
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 6: trade union dance, which he attended with his friend Ditovits.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 6: It says that after dancing with her, he, along with
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 6: five other admirers, escorted her home. Whoa.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 4: We can compare. Sally is... Chris Hemsworth, Ella German. She
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 4: would have spurned Oswald's advances.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 4: Much like Ella did.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 6: Okay, I can kind of get by that, behind that.
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 6: Oswald says that he and Marina immediately liked each other
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 6: and he gave him her telephone number. Mrs. Oswald's own
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 6: account of the events relating to their meeting and courtship
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 6: was given to the FBI after the assassination of President Kennedy.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 6: It generally confirms the entries in the diary but adds
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 6: many details and in a few cases contradicts the diary.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 6: According to Ms. Oswald, she first met Oswald Lee According
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 6: to Marina, she first met Lee in mid-March 1961 at
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 6: the Palace of Culture for professional workers in Minsk. At
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 6: that time, she was living with her aunt and uncle
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 6: and working at the Third Clinical Hospital. Remember, she was
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 6: in the pharmaceutical industry, whatever. Mrs. Oswald says that some
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 6: medical student friends had invited her to attend a cultural
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 6: and social event at the Palace of Culture. Since she
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 6: did not arrive until 10 p.m., she was drinking and smoking.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 6: She missed the first part of the program, a travel
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 6: lecture given by a Russian woman who had recently returned
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 6: on a trip to the United States, which is interesting.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 6: I'm sure Oswald loved that one. The son of this woman,
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 6: who was a medical student and an acquaintance of Oswald's
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 6: and of Prusikov's, was also present. When Marina arrived, Oswalt
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 6: told the student that he'd like to meet her. Thereupon,
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 6: the two were introduced, and Oswalt asked her to dance.
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 6: Do you want me to show you the twist?
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 4: This is how we do it in New Orleans, baby.
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 6: In another statement to U.S. government officials, Ms. Oswalt stated
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 6: that she had been introduced to Oswalt by a friend
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 6: named Yurda, whose last name she could not recall. The
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 6: exact day of this meeting was probably Saturday afternoon. March 18th, 1961.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 6: So let's go on here. March 18th to 31st, 1961.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 6: It is not entirely clear from Marina's account whether or
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 6: not Oswald escorted her home after their first meeting, while
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 6: there were five of them, and whether or not they
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 6: arranged a second meeting. She stated that she, she's probably drunk,
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 6: She stated that she told him she might come to
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 6: one of the dances at the Palace of Culture the
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 6: next weekend, but did not actually make a date. A
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 6: diary of this period reads, March 18th to 31st, we walk. Rob,
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 6: can you do the voice?
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 4: We walk. I talk a little bit about myself. She
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 4: talks a lot about herself, though.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 6: No, Marina's aunt, Valentina, here we go, Grevna Pershova had
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 6: no children, did not work, and spent her time at home.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 6: She was not a member of the Communist Party. In
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 6: October 1959, Marina related, she began work in the drug
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 6: section of the Third Clinical Hospital in Minsk. She met
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 6: Oswald in March of 1961 at a social-cultural event at
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 6: the Palace of Culture in Minsk. He proposed marriage to
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 6: her soon after their meeting and repeated... the proposal until
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 6: she were accepted on four 20.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 4: She must've had that good, good Joe. If you're proposing
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 4: to her within a month of meeting it, she Marina
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 4: must've had put it on him like real good. You
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 4: know what I mean?
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah. Yeah. I think so. I think James Herbert
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 6: Martin would agree. Um, and, uh, You know, I just
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 6: find it interesting because, you know, Rob and I on
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 6: Members Only, and if you're not a member, become one.
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 6: You're dumb.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 6: I'm just kidding. We went on like a 45-minute rant
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 6: to end the show on different topics that we once
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 6: believed in that we now don't. And I'm going to
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 6: just say this here. I believe for a long time
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 6: Marina was the honeypot, right? Yes. I don't know if
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 6: I believe that anymore.
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 4: Hmm.
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 6: I don't know. I think she had her own goals
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 6: and objectives. I'm not sure that she really... I mean,
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 6: if she was using Oswald for anything, it was to
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 6: get out of Russia.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 4: I'm still all in on the honeypot theory.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 6: Okay, fair enough, fair enough. And I don't want to
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 6: go on this tangent, because we can go on for
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 6: like an hour on this. Yeah.
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 4: We'll get a little more into it when I get
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 4: to the conspiracy section of the show after Joe's done.
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 6: Okay, if I'm ever done. By Marina Oswald's letter account,
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 6: she and Oswald met for the second time at the palace, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 6: On this occasion, Oswald escorted Marina to the entrance of
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 6: her uncle's apartment, but did not go in. They agreed
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 6: to meet again the following Friday night. April 1st, or
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 6: April 1961, Oswald's diary entry under this date, referring to Marina, reads,
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 6: We are going steady, and I decide I must have her.
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 6: She puts me off, so on April 15th, I propose.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 6: She accepts. But she didn't accept until a couple times after.
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: Mrs.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 6: Oswald stated that Oswald proposed marriage to her several times,
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 6: but that she did not accept until 420.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 4: After every time they had sex.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 6: Oh, yes.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 4: Will you marry me? Oh, my God.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 6: He goes, let me bring you this joint on 420.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 4: I don't normally smoke, but I need a cigarette, Marina.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 6: According to Mrs. Oswalt, on Sunday afternoon, April 2nd, and
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 6: every succeeding day during this 10-day stay, she visited Oswalt
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 6: in the hospital. So Oswalt, I clipped this out, but
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 6: Oswalt was in the, what's it called, the mouth, ear
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 6: and throat mouth nose throat ear nose and throat there
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 6: you go thing and he was there for a couple
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 6: of weeks and visiting our.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 4: A mast was it mastoidectomy or something.
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 6: I don't know exactly but maybe he got something from
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 6: his previous more who knows uh visiting Visiting hours were
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 6: on Sundays only, but Mrs. Oswald Marina stated that because
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 6: of her uniform, a.k.a. position, she was able to get
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 6: in every day.
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 4: She was a candy striper.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 6: A what?
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 4: A candy striper. What is that? It's kind of like
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 4: a nurse in training, and they wear the pink and
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 4: white striped uniform, and they call them candy stripers.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 6: Interesting.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 4: They basically do all the shit work that nurses don't
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 4: want to do.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: Like, you know.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 6: Emptying pans. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 4: Give like 85-year-old dudes sponge baths and stuff.
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 6: Lord, don't let me get me.
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 4: Don't... Make sure you get under the nuts, Danny.
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 6: This is Oswald related that she asked Oswald about America
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 6: and his status during her first visit to the hospital.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: This is.
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 6: Again, in the same timeline, in April 61 time frame, Mrs.
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 6: Oswald claims that after his release from the hospital about
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 6: 7th April, Oswald began visiting her at the uncle's apartment
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 6: and met both the uncle and aunt. She says that
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 6: her uncle and aunt did not object to Oswald despite
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 6: the fact that he was a foreigner. Although Oswald proposed
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 6: marriage on a number of occasions, Mrs. Oswald Marina related
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 6: she continued to see another admirer. So, Marina had a
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 6: good marr. A medical student named Anatoly. Last name allegedly forgotten.
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 4: Until the day they got married. Or no, she agreed
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 4: to marry.
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 6: Allegedly.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 4: Allegedly.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 6: Until 420. On that date, she says she agreed to
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 6: marry Oswald. Oswald's diary indicates that he proposed to her
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 6: on April 15th first. So he went back like three
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 6: times and proposed to her in like a five-day time frame. Yeah.
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 6: 420 on this date Oswald and Marina went together to
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 6: the registrar to file a declaration to intend to marry
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 6: and were told that it took seven days to obtain
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 6: permission to marry a foreigner Marina stated that permission was
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 6: granted in seven days and that it was necessary to
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 6: delay an additional three days to complete the required ten
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 6: day waiting period and this is with the registry of
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 6: acts of civil status um Oswalt's diary records, this is
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 6: end of April, April 30th, 61, records that on completion
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 6: of the required period, so again, that's 10 days after
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 6: April 20th, Marina and he were certified as married at
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 6: the registrar's office and that the two of Marina's friends
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 6: acted as bridesmaids. The diary also states that Oswalt and
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 6: Marina were, quote, married and, quote, at the home of
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 6: Marina's aunt. Did you know that? I did not know that.
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 4: They were married there.
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah, allegedly, according to his diary. Huh.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 4: Interesting.
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah. Which makes you think, like, going back to the
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 6: Marina Honeypot discussion, they're either, like, doing some long play here,
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 6: or they just didn't really care. Who knows?
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 6: Maybe they wanted... Maybe she was annoying, and they wanted
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 6: her out of her house. I don't know. Oswald's diary
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 6: entry for... 31st April records this and indicates that newlyweds
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 6: had a dinner reception attended by about 20 friends and neighbors.
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 6: After an evening of eating and drinking in which her
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 6: uncle started a bright and in quotations fight question mark
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 6: and the fused blue on an overloaded circuit. We take
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 6: our leave and walk the 15 minutes to our home.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 6: So I'm just going to try to unpack this here
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 6: because it's misspelled crazily. But the uncle, the dude that's
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 6: part of the Russian FBI thing, right? It's like SVP
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 6: or SVB, something like that. Got in a fight At
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 6: their wedding ceremony. And they lost power. Is this what
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 6: I'm reading here?
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 4: That's what it sounds like.
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 6: According to Oswald's diary. Again. Rob and I were not there.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 6: Although we would have loved to be. I would have.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 6: Never mind.
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 4: Oswald's best man.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 6: What if it is wingman? Let's put it that way.
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 6: We lived near each other. At midnight, we were home.
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 6: Oswald's diary states that he and Marina... Something, something. It
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 6: wasn't important. Diary. May 1st, 1961. In spite of the
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 6: fact that I married Marina to hurt Ella, I found
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 6: myself in love with Marina. So, this is what you
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 6: kind of talked about earlier. Um... He was still kind
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 6: of enamored with Ella. And, of course, he's seeing her
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 6: every day at work, or at least five days a week.
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 6: Which is a problem. If your ex is working... If
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 6: you see your ex when you walk into work every day,
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 6: that's not a good situation. Or the person you want
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 6: them to be with, really.
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: Really.
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 6: This and other diary entries for May and June 61
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 6: indicate that despite his marriage, Oswalt found it difficult to
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 6: forget Ella, the woman who had rejected him five months earlier.
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 6: Late 1961, in an entry which is evidently intended to
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 6: cover May, Oswalt wrote, quote, May, the transition of changing
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 6: full love from Ella to Marina was very painful, especially
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 6: as I saw Ella almost every day at the factory.
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 6: But as the days and weeks continued, Went by, I
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 6: adjusted more and more to my wife mentally. She is
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 6: madly in love with me, Marina, from the very start.
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 6: That kind of lends credence to your side there. See,
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 6: I call balls and strikes, bro. It was in June.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 4: Real quick, you know, it's like this, bro. So, you're
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 4: the Russian government. You get a foreign American, quote, defector
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 4: trying to come live in your country. Of course you're
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 4: going to be suspect of the dude, right?
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 4: So, obviously, if it was me, I would send women
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 4: to get close to this guy to get information possibly
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 4: out of him. What we call pillar talk. Things that
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 4: honeypots do. They satisfy them sexually, give them attention and
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 4: booze and try to get them talking about what their
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 4: true intentions may really be of them being over there.
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 4: So I can see a situation where they probably didn't
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 4: just send Marina. They probably tried with a lot of
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 4: these other women.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I agree.
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 4: And probably not Ella, right? She's like the only real one, maybe. But,
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 4: you know, they would, I could see a scenario where
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 4: they would send, you know, a beautiful young Russian girl
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 4: to this guy, make him feel like he's the king
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 4: of the world, get close to him, yada, yada, yada,
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 4: and try to see why he's really there, right? Because
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 4: they don't believe that this guy is just all of
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 4: a sudden one day, you know, a true American patriot,
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 4: And then, you know, decides to leave the Marines and
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 4: come run into Russia. You know, it's sus. So I
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 4: can see a situation where they would want to send
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 4: a woman in close to him, you know, to see
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 4: what's up.
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 6: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And like you said,
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 6: multiple women, most likely.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 4: And hello, her uncle is the Soviet equivalent of the FBI.
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 6: Okay. Yeah.
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 4: So she's probably reporting back to him, you know, okay, yes,
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 4: I got close to this guy. I had to bang
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 4: him like four times this week, but here's what he
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 4: told me.
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 6: She probably would have said that.
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 4: But, you know, you get the idea, right?
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 4: So I can certainly see, you know, if it wasn't
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 4: some like official KGB, super secret undercover, you know, honeypot
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 4: operation that it possibly could have been, finagled to be
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 4: something close to that I.
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 6: Don't disagree and this is just like what I meant
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 6: by my earlier comment was I was 100% that Merino
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 6: was a huddy pot and now I'm like 50-50 on
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 6: it if you know what I mean I just don't
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 6: know and we're probably never going to.
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 4: Know the old fence sitter Joe.
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 6: Here we go 50-50 No, but I'm saying it's moved
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 6: to more of the center. And it's hard to get
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 6: a 20-year-old Marina's head in 1961.
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 4: Wasn't hard to get into her vajayjay, apparently. In 1961.
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 4: If you're an American defector.
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 6: Or the Afghan... Because.
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 4: Oswald wasn't the only one that got in there.
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 6: No. No, no, that's true. I mean, she was, she
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 6: wasn't no Ella. Let's put it that way. No.
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 6: Put that back up. I think I only have one
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 6: or two more slides, but I'll hand it back off
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 6: to you. Um, uh, and an entry, uh, which covered
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 6: May of 19, late May, 1961. Hold on.
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: I gotta.
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 6: Pull back up my PowerPoint on my tab so I
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 6: could read this actually. Cause my eyes are going to Rob. Um,
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 6: It was in June, according to the diary, that Oswald
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 6: first revealed to his wife that he wanted to return
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 6: to the United States. This contradicts Marina's statement to interviewers
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 6: that he first mentioned to her about three months after
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 6: they were married, i.e. late July 1961. So they're talking
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 6: about June, July 61. I don't think that contradicts anything, really.
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 6: I think that's probably like a rounding error, for lack
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 6: of a better term. Is that... The diary indicates, it's
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 6: not like July 1960 to July 1961, but the diary
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 6: indicates that when she told, that when Lee told Marina
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 6: of his, quote, longing to return to America, she was, quote,
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 6: slightly startled, end quote, but encouraged him to do what
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 6: he wished to do. So, you know, you've been in
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 6: those relationships and you bring up something that's startling, to
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 6: quote this, and they go, yeah, do what you want
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 6: to do. And you know what that means, of course.
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: If you, you know.
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 6: Been in a long-term relationship, you know, do what you
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 6: want to do. You know what I mean? It's like,
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 6: do what you want to do, but not.
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 4: Do your podcast tonight, Joe.
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 6: Nope, I'm not commenting on that one. He also commented
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 6: in the diary at that time, we draw closer and closer,
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 6: and I think I see very little now of Ella. Okay?
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 6: In an interview during December 1963 at the... At the...
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 6: At the.
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 6: Which residence?
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 4: Oh, Martin Residence.
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes.
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 6: Thank you, sir. Yes. Yes. Mrs. Oswald stated that while
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 6: she lived in the USSR, she was interested in the
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 6: United States and all foreign countries. The New York Times,
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 6: for January 19, 1964, in an article titled Portrait of
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 6: Marina Oswald on page 10E, we've got to find that, Rob,
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 6: maybe for part two, even claims that she had, quote,
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 6: dreamed of going to America, end quote. Mrs. Oswald volunteered
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 6: the statement that she married Oswald because she loved him
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 6: and not because he was an American or for the
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 6: purpose of going to the United States.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 4: Well, I think that's... You take me, we go America.
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that sentence leans in your favor here.
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 6: She also stated to Time Magazine and other interviewers that
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 6: she had married him only out of pity since everyone
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 6: hated him, even in Russia. It's a weird comment.
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 4: What is that from? You take me, we go America?
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 6: I don't know.
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: Chat.
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 6: I'll leave it to the chat.
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, leave it to the chat.
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 6: Alright, and that's it. You can take it down. So.
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 6: You know, Oswald was, like I said in the beginning,
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 6: I think he was his happiest there. I think he
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 6: grew bored eventually. I think he was upset about Ella, obviously.
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 6: And maybe that's why he rushed into the relationship with Marina.
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 6: I don't know. It's crazy. But definitely not a lone nutter,
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 6: like crazy weirdo that couldn't get any If you know
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 6: what I mean.
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, in Russia, you know, he's got friends,
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 4: he's banging chicks, he's drinking, he's having a good time.
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 4: It's just not what he wanted. Apparently the novelty wore
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 4: off eventually and, you know, he just couldn't see himself
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 4: being stuck in that life forever.
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 1: Right? Right.
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 6: So let me just go for... Oh, you're welcome, Josh.
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 6: I'm like an hour behind on the comments because I've
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 6: been doing my PowerPoint. Let me see. Lee was a player. Yeah.
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 4: He's not a player. He just crushed a lot.
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 6: Oh, Double B, what up? Just want to say hello.
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 6: Catch the episode later. I'm well and hope you are too.
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 6: All right. Thank you, Brandon.
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 4: Fine then, Brandon.
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 1: Catch it later. Yeah.
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 6: I see Toops in here.
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: Of course, Scott.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 6: Sally. James.
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 4: This is not members only, Joe.
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 5: I know.
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 6: I'm just going through the comments. I don't want to
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 6: miss any gold comments here.
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 4: Well, if you see any, pop them up here because
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 4: we're going to plunge right into some of the conspiracy
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 4: parts of this. We heard from the horse's mouth, if
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 4: you will, from Oswald in his historic diary. Whether you
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 4: believe that he wrote it at the time in Russia
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 4: or on the boat coming back, whatever. You know, it's
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 4: still in his own words type of thing. His version
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 4: of events, his story. Part of the official story, you know,
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 4: coming from Ella, who did some interviews, coming from Marina
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 4: at different times, coming from Oswald's buddies who relayed what
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 4: they were up to over there. So now.
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 4: Let's take a look at some of the more interesting
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 4: conspiracy angles to all this stuff, right?
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 6: Let's do it.
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 4: One long-standing theory holds that Oswald's 59 defection was staged
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 4: by the U.S. intelligence. As a Marine who had served
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 4: at Itsugi, a base linked to U-2 operations, he allegedly
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 4: offered radar and related info to the Soviets as a
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 4: way to infiltrate or test Soviet responses. Proponents point to
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 4: the relatively privileged treatment that he received in Minsk, a
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 4: decent apartment, a higher pay, an easy job, the lack
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 4: of prosecution or rigorous debriefing upon his 1962 return to
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 4: the U.S., and the existence of a CIA 201 personality file.
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 4: Some versions claim he was an unwitting asset or part
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 4: of a dangle operation. Critics note that the Soviets initially
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 4: rejected him and only allowed him I don't know if
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 4: that was me or you.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 6: It might have been you, but who knows?
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 6: I'm like searching for my power cord because I'm at 15%.
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 4: After his unaliving attempt in the KGB files, as described
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 4: by researchers like Norman Mailer, portray him as a low-value
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 4: asset and closely watched rather than cultivated as a useful agent.
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 4: It is well documented that the KGB heavily monitored Oswald
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 4: in Minsk His apartment was bugged. A peephole existed in
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 4: the bedroom from a neighboring unit, Joe.
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 6: Oh, wow.
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 4: So the KGB was watching him and Marina get busy.
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 4: His movements were tracked and contacts were noted. He was
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 4: given the code name Lick-Hoy or Like-Hoy, which is a
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 4: combination of Alec Harvey Oswald. Like-Hoy. Roughly 20 local agents
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 4: in Minsk were reportedly assigned to evaluate whether he was
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 4: worth developing as a KGB asset. Some conspiracy angles expand
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 4: this into claims that the KGB recruited him as an
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 4: agent or that he was already one, that friends or
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 4: co-workers were informants, or that the entire Minsk placement was
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 4: a controlled environment to extract information or prepare him for
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 4: later use. Declassified materials and statements from former KGB officers
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 4: generally describe him as unstable, of little intelligence value, and
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 4: not tasked or controlled after he left the USSR. Some
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 4: theories allege that the full KGB files still contain withheld details,
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 4: much like our own.
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 6: Sally, I'm not sharing an article anymore.
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 4: What'd she say?
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 6: She said, just so you know, we can't see the
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 6: article you're reading. Rob's reading. And he's not sharing. So
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 6: he's just reading. Enjoy this voice.
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 4: Fine, I'll share.
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 6: No, I'm just saying. I was like, it's not me.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 4: A frequently discussed angle focuses on Oswald's rapid courtship, as
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 4: we pointed out here in Marriage to Marina. They met
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 4: at a dance, blah, blah, blah. Her uncle held a
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 4: position in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the MVD, Joe. MVD.
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 4: And some claim she was directed by the local KGB
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 4: as a swallow in sexual entrapment operations to get close
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 4: to the American. The area suggests that the marriage was
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 4: encouraged so a Soviet citizen could accompany him back to
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 4: the U.S. potentially as an ongoing asset or to create
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 4: a propaganda narrative. One declassified CIA report recounts a source
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 4: claiming the Minsk KGB recruited her for this purpose and
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 4: that she later refused further cooperation with after returning to
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 4: the United States. Counterpoints include her own statements, the mundane
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 4: nature of their domestic life, captured in surveillance transcripts of
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 4: marital arguments and official denials that she was an agent.
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 4: Variations also question inconsistencies in her patronomic or family background.
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 4: Some theorists argue that Oswald's job at the radio TV factory,
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 4: Horizon Corazon, which produced electronics with potential dual-use applications, His
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 4: central apartment, language instruction, and friendships, including with figures later
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 4: accused by some of having KGB ties, formed a deliberate
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 4: observation or recruitment environment. Claims include that he received specialized
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 4: training nearby, that certain acquaintances such as Ernst Titovitz in
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 4: more extreme versions were handlers, or that the relative comfort
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 4: was baked. The documented KGB interest in whether he was
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 4: a western spy himself feeds these ideas Mainstream historical accounts
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 4: treat the privileges as standard for a rare American defector
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 4: under watch in a provincial city and the work as
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 4: deliberately low-level and monotonous. So, of course, you know, they
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 4: stick him over here in the corner, out of harm's way,
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 4: so they can keep an eye on him type of thing.
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 4: Let's see.
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 6: And by the way, there's also a third option. to
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 6: whether Marina was a honeypot or not, she could have
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 6: initially been a honeypot and then refused communication or to
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 6: cooperate after she went to the United States.
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 4: Which she probably did by that point.
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 4: I don't think she would have refused anything while still
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 4: in the USSR.
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 6: Right, and of course, you know, their mail is being read. Yeah, so.
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 4: And they're being watched in America by the FBI. I mean,
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 4: not as closely as, you know, the KGB. There wasn't
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 4: somebody tailing them 24-7. But they were certainly at different
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 4: points keeping eyes on them or trying to figure out
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 4: what they're doing, trying to figure out what Marina was doing.
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 4: And they would later, the FBI would later bug Marina's
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 4: house and phone in early 1964. Yeah.
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 6: How many agents did we say they had on there?
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 6: Like two shifts of like 12? Yeah. It was like crazy.
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 4: They surveilled her 24 hours a day for like two months.
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 4: So a subset of theories position the entire Soviet sojourn
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 4: as a preparation for Oswald to serve as a double agent.
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 4: or a disposable figure later. Elements include the ease of
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 4: his return with a Soviet wife and child, alleged contacts
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 4: in Mexico City with Soviet-Cuban diplomats, including a KGB officer
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 4: linked in some memos to sabotage assassination departments shortly before
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 4: the assassination, and the idea that either the KGB or
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 4: CIA or both used the Minsk period to shape or
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 4: later disavow him. Some online and fringe claims go further,
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 4: asserting multi-year KGB training in Minsk Official U.S. and available
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 4: Soviet side assessments reject directed involvement in the assassination. And also,
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 4: there is the theory that Oswald was replaced by a
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 4: double while in the Soviet Union.
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 6: There is that.
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 4: There is that. They even dug him up to see
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 4: if this is true.
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 6: Which is crazy when you think about it. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 6: damn thing oh man uh.
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 4: Oh why is my thing froze anyway so again like
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 4: we mentioned before we mentioned Robert Webster this is the
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 4: reason why I just can't shake the feeling that she
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 4: was up to something It's a problem. Okay, when you're
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 4: just a young rando in a country as huge as
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 4: the Soviet Union, Joe, I mean, it's a big-ass country, okay?
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 4: But when one young Soviet girl manages to meet not one,
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 4: not two, but three American defectors, have relations with two
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 4: of them, Oswald and Webster, if you know what I'm saying,
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 4: and marry one of them, that to me is suspect
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 4: as hell. The odds of that happening are astronomical.
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 6: I would agree 100% with that assessment. I just look
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 6: at her almost like Lee. And I could be wrong
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 6: about this. I don't know. Like, And again, I'm kind
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 6: of on the fence being my usual Joe. Coming from
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 6: a broken family, right? No mom, no dad. Living with
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 6: your aunt and uncle. And then maybe, according to her,
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 6: if you believe her, wanting to get out of the USSR.
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 6: You could see a situation where she would seek out
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 6: as a young woman. pretty girl Americans to get out.
• 2:00:59
  Speaker 6: But again, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I do not know. Yeah.
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 4: I mean, to me, is that logic?
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 6: No, it's suspect as hell for sure. I'm not denying that.
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 4: But I just can't see that randomly happening ever. The
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 4: odds of that randomly happening are just have to be
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 4: a gazillion to one, you know, in a country that big.
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 4: Some random little marina.
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 6: Well, then she meet Webster in Moscow, right? The Moscow.
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 6: I believe it was like the Moscow Fair or something.
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 1: Chat.
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 6: Check us here.
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 4: I don't know. But again, what was she doing there
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 4: in the first place? Why? You know, it's to me,
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 4: it's suspect.
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 6: Oh, it definitely is.
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 4: And I mean, the whole Oswald going to Russia thing
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 4: is suspect, right? You have to understand and think what
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 4: the Soviets were thinking. Like, something's got to be up
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 4: with this dude, right? They had to send this guy
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 4: in here, you know? So let's get close to him
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 4: and see what the fuck is going on, right? They
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 4: would have done that.
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 6: 100%.
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 4: You know, I mean, they tried to, like, not let
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 4: him defect. And send him home immediately. And when that
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 4: didn't work and they didn't want to garner negative attention
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 4: for kicking this guy out after he tried to off
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 4: himself in a bathtub because they wouldn't let him stay.
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 4: It wasn't a good look, if you will, at the time.
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 4: So they were like, all right, I guess we'll just
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 4: let him stay. But we'll put him over here. Hey,
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 4: who do we have over there? Oh, that marina chick.
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 4: Call her up. Tell her to get gussied up. get
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 4: to the dance. We'll make the introductions. Things will happen.
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 4: And boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And, uh, boom, boom, boom.
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 6: I want you in my room.
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 4: So Sally says, did she find out she was pregnant
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 4: before or after they married? If she was a honeypot
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 4: and married to her mark, would a baby be part
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 4: of the plan? Can't see that helping, helping. No, I
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 4: can't either, but you got to remember this is 19.
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 4: It's the early sixties, you know, uh, you know, sexual
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 4: relations were, I don't know if condoms were a big
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 4: thing back then or birth control pills. So you were
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 4: really rolling the dice, you know, if, uh, if you're
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 4: banging back then. So you got to understand things might happen.
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 4: Oswald was allegedly a quick finisher, at least with Marina.
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 4: Who knows?
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 6: Um, can't blame.
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 1: Them.
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 4: You know, and, and things happened. It was, uh, it
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 4: was one of those things, you know, that, that, that happened.
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 4: And once that happened at that point, you know, maybe
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 4: Marina really did have feelings for Oswald at that point.
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 4: I don't know. It's, it's hard to tell, you know,
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 4: of stranger things have happened, you know, where assets are, are,
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 4: are set to go against somebody and, and find out
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 4: more about him. And they end up falling in love
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 4: with them. And, you know, Things happen.
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, 100%.
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 6: And then you have to just take into account how
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 6: young these people were. I mean, these were like 20, 30-year-old...
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 6: Hold on, I'm going to disable my camera because my
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 6: girlfriend's coming down to give me my charger because I'm
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 6: under 10%. But, you know, you can't underestimate the human
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 6: aspect of it. There's no camera on, babe. Thank you. Um.
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 6: She's a BSD. She can't be seen. But you can
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 6: see her. Sorry, I just don't want to die in
• 2:04:59
  Speaker 6: the air. But yeah, no, I mean, you can't underestimate
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 6: the human aspect of it, right? Things happen. Feelings fly.
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 6: Other things fly. Relationships are complicated.
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 4: Nothing is perfect. Operations are complicated.
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 6: And when you're talking about Oswalt, nothing is not complicated
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 6: about Oswalt. Say what you will about it.
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 4: I think it's not complicated about Oswald.
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 6: Not complicated, yes, sir.
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 4: Yes, yes. That's about all I had, Joe, unless you
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 4: have something more.
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 6: No, I don't, actually. I have to do some packing,
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 6: but I thought that was very interesting. Because, like, you know,
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 6: we always talk about to understand... JFK assassination, you need
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 6: to understand Oswald. And I hope we gave you some
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 6: context in Oswald in Russia and what some of his
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 6: ideologies were.
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and we all know this wasn't meant to be
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 4: another conspiracy-angled show about Oswald in Russia. Was he a dangle?
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 4: Was he a spy? Was he not?
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 4: What was he doing? Did the CIA send him? Did
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 4: ONI send him? Did the FBI send him? You know,
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 4: this is not what this episode was meant to be.
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 4: It was to gather a little bit more understanding of
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 4: who actually Oswald was at this time in his life
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 4: and what he was doing at this time in his
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 4: life because it gets glossed over a lot and we
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 4: forget that this guy was a real dude living a
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 4: real life day to day.
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 6: You know?
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 4: And whether or not you believe that he was sent
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 4: there or he went there voluntarily because of that, because
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 4: of ideology, right? Either way, you know, he was still
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 4: there every day, getting up, going to work, doing what
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 4: he needed to do, meeting these chicks, running through them,
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 4: falling in love, having the time of his life until
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 4: he wasn't.
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 4: And you, And you also have to remember, too, that
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 4: in 1963, okay, within Joe, less than a year of
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 4: coming back, they were writing the Soviet embassy in Washington, D.C.,
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 4: trying to go back to Russia.
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 4: Which is interesting, because all of a sudden, you know,
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 4: they didn't like how things were going in Russia, that's
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 4: why they wanted to come back. Now that they're here
• 2:07:42
  Speaker 4: and they see how hard life is when you don't
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 4: have everything handed to you on a silver platter. And yeah,
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 4: there's stuff to do, but you don't have the money
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 4: to do them. And, you know, your Russian wife wants
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 4: nice things, the American dream, and you can't give them
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 4: to her and your family. now you just you're working
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 4: again you got another kid coming.
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 6: You're working a minimum wage job.
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah the FBI sniffing around you everywhere you go you
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 4: know you're in shitty apartments you're moving around on shitty
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 4: jobs that's when you can get one living apart Yeah,
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 4: living apart a lot of time, arguing a lot. Things
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 4: just aren't going the way that they thought it was
• 2:08:25
  Speaker 4: going to go. And life in Russia actually wasn't that bad.
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 4: It was more laid back, very structured, very here's everything
• 2:08:34
  Speaker 4: you're going to need type of thing. Even though there's
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 4: not a lot of fun shit to do, you can
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 4: still live comfortably and have a nice life and be
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 4: equal to everybody else. Or maybe even a little higher
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 4: in status than everybody else because of the fact that
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 4: you are an American, you.
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 6: Know, reality set in, I believe back when they came
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 6: back after probably 1962, probably for most of 63. Yeah.
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 4: And actually this period in his life helped inform something
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 4: that we're going to be getting into next week with
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 4: our guests that we have on the show, uh, a
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 4: new kind of, uh, government, almost a hybrid of communism
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 4: and capitalism, something that Oswald was, uh, kind of forming
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 4: an opinion on and becoming a proponent of a combined
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 4: system of communism and capitalism and socialism.
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 6: Taking the best aspects of each, if you will. Right.
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 4: Everything that works good in those systems, because there are,
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 4: you know, no one system is perfect, but each system
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 4: has their own good points and bad points. So if
• 2:09:44
  Speaker 4: you took the best out of all three and combine
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 4: them and created something new, and something that possibly could work,
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 4: you know, this is what Oswald was trying to do.
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 4: This is what he was speaking about at the Jesuit college.
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 4: This is what he was writing about in his writings.
• 2:10:04
  Speaker 4: So it all becomes very interesting. So make sure you
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 4: come back next week for, we're going to have a
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 4: special guest. We'll announce who it is on next week's
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 4: members only show. We don't want to spill the beans
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 4: too soon.
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 6: Um, But it was a really good conversation. Really good.
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 6: I had fun. Really good guy. And you'll see it
• 2:10:28
  Speaker 6: next week, so tune back in.
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I will say, a former guest, and it's been
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 4: a while since he's been on the show.
• 2:10:33
  Speaker 6: All right, give him some hints.
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 4: First time in video form, so.
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 6: Give him some hints. And he loved our use of
• 2:10:40
  Speaker 6: the word allegedly. Yes. The over-under might be like 20, allegedly.
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 6: I'm not sure.
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 4: I think we inserted it into his daily vocabulary now. Alright, Joe.
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 4: With that being said, my friend, safe travels to Italy.
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 6: Yes, thank you, sir.
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 4: Have fun.
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 6: I'll be a little closer to you, I believe. At
• 2:11:06
  Speaker 6: least kind of closer. I don't know if I'm going
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 6: to be able to grab the damn dog. Ruby?
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 4: Nowhere close to Australia.
• 2:11:15
  Speaker 6: Oh, it's like in that direction.
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 4: Rumor has it you're at the top of the boot.
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, I am.
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 6: Oh, hi, Ruby. Let me say hi to Ruby before
• 2:11:26
  Speaker 6: you start the.
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 4: Alright, there she is. Look at that little adorable little face.
• 2:11:32
  Speaker 1: Hi, Ruby.
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 6: I want to go out on my evening walk. Daddy,
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 6: get done with your podcast. I don't know. Um... But
• 2:11:43
  Speaker 6: thank you, everyone. We love you. Thank you for tuning in.
• 2:11:47
  Speaker 6: Replay Crew, everyone that's been in here live, a bunch
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 6: of people in here haven't been able to keep up
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 6: with the comments as much as I hoped. But we
• 2:12:02
  Speaker 6: love every one of you and hope you found this
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 6: a little interesting and hopefully you learned something because that's
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 6: what we try to do every week.
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 4: Smash the like button, share it. Thank you to Owen
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 4: for sharing the show on X and Timothy on Facebook.
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 4: Please continue to do so. We appreciate it. Thank you
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 4: guys for showing up live with us here and enjoying
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 4: yourself in the chat. It's always a good time. If
• 2:12:34
  Speaker 4: you like the show, join members only. We do it
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 4: again on Wednesday nights every week just for members. So
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 4: if you enjoy this thing, think about becoming a member
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 4: and checking it out. And with that being said, Joe,
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 4: I'll see you sometime. Maybe, maybe on members only. Allegedly.
• 2:12:56
  Speaker 6: Maybe I'll pop in. You never know. Maybe, maybe a
• 2:12:59
  Speaker 6: little bit with my Asperol spritz.
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 4: But I'll see you folks for another random research ramblers
• 2:13:07
  Speaker 4: with Rob and a book review and all that happy
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 4: horse shit. Uh, very soon. Uh, so thank you guys
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 4: for watching and we'll see you next time here on
• 2:13:16
  Speaker 4: the loon gumming podcast. Booyah, baby. Peace out, folks.
• 2:13:23
  Speaker 6: That's a pod.
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 2: Oh, one more fire.
• 2:13:30
  Speaker 1: Triple view.
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Lone Gun Man podcast tonight.
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 3: Where the official line ain't right. Triple B and Joe
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 3: reading line by line.
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 2: Through the black ink on the page. Looking past the
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 2: grassy knoll. Oswald walking down a Dallas street, handcuffed to
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 2: a detective sleeve. Jack Ruby steps from the crowded press
• 2:14:25
  Speaker 2: with a.
• 2:14:25
  Speaker 4: Trick of a suit jacket sleeve.
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 2: Redacted documents stacked on the desk, thick black lines on
• 2:14:32
  Speaker 2: every name. They call it an open and shut case
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 2: while they play the song. Is it a single shot
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 2: from behind? Or a rifle behind the fence? Take a
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 2: ride with Triple B and Joby. Nothing here makes any sense.
• 2:15:17
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the Lone Gun Man podcast.