Latest / Attachment Matters Podcast / AM S2 Ep 10: Finding the Thread - Q & A Part 3

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AM S2 Ep 10: Finding the Thread - Q & A Part 3 · Attachment Matters Podcast

0:01
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
0:03
This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
0:07
passionate about the
0:08
SPEAKER_00: subject of attachment.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: This is Rose.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm Stoic Mom.
0:13
Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
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of gender and
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SPEAKER_01: identity,
0:18
SPEAKER_01: following very different routes to get here.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: Through this experience,
0:22
SPEAKER_01: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
0:25
SPEAKER_01: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
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Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
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relationship
0:34
SPEAKER_00: between parents and their children,
0:36
SPEAKER_00: despite all odds.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: In this episode,
0:39
SPEAKER_01: Rose and I continue answering listener questions,
0:42
SPEAKER_01: hopefully offering some clarity around boundaries and values,
0:45
SPEAKER_01: as well as how to navigate relationships where they seem to clash.
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We talk quite a bit about how our feelings and emotions will
0:51
move us and the
0:53
benefits of developing a conscious relationship with them
0:56
rather than attempting to
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SPEAKER_01: control them.
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We also encourage questioning not only cultural narratives that
1:02
may be limiting
1:03
SPEAKER_01: your experience,
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but also checking your own so you can start better
1:07
understanding your own defenses.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: Hello.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: Hi, Rose.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: Hi.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: Good to see you.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: You too.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: I realized after our last episode,
1:25
SPEAKER_00: which was Q&A part two,
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SPEAKER_00: that I had neglected to orient listeners at the beginning of it.
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SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to do that today.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there's an attachment reason for that.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: I was just like, hey.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: We all know where we're at.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: And we got you.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm consistent in my inconsistency, as my dad would say.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: As I say about myself.
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Oh.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead and orient us, Rose.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: So we are, this is episode 10 of season two of Attachment Matters.
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SPEAKER_00: And we had not planned to do three Q&A episodes, but here we are.
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We've got such rich questions with so many layers and so much
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we could say in
2:34
SPEAKER_00: conversation around them and response to them.
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SPEAKER_00: that we really need to take the time to do a third Q&A episode.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: And I've just appreciated this so much.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: You know,
2:47
SPEAKER_00: back when we first started season two,
2:49
SPEAKER_00: we really,
2:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: dove right in to Neufeld's attachment-based developmental model,
2:56
SPEAKER_00: starting with the concept of,
2:57
SPEAKER_00: or the construct of maturity and
3:01
SPEAKER_00: looking at emergence into a separate self,
3:07
SPEAKER_00: adaptation,
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the experience of having our tears of futility due to hitting a
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wall against
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SPEAKER_00: something that we cannot change,
3:18
SPEAKER_00: and then moving into the integrative process.
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Being able to maintain our sense of self while also being in
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relationship to others
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SPEAKER_00: is the ultimate fruit of that.
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But essentially being able to hold two things can be true at
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the same time.
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SPEAKER_00: We can have on the one hand and on the other hand.
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And so really looking at those three sides of maturity is where
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we landed before
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SPEAKER_00: starting the Q&A.
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SPEAKER_00: And if we back up to even season one,
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which one of our questions kind of really does a great job that
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we're going to talk
3:49
SPEAKER_00: about this question today of saying,
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SPEAKER_00: hey,
3:50
SPEAKER_00: during season one,
3:52
SPEAKER_00: this was my reflection.
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SPEAKER_00: Now in season two, this is my reflection.
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SPEAKER_00: And really trying to kind of reflect on these concepts from both seasons.
4:02
So I think that'll be a really nice bringing together of many
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of the themes that
4:07
SPEAKER_00: we've talked about over time.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: So, so yeah, so thank you again, everyone for submitting your questions.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: And, um,
4:19
SPEAKER_00: It's been a nice,
4:20
SPEAKER_00: I'll say for me,
4:21
it's been a great way to do the podcast over the summer to
4:27
really kind of,
4:31
SPEAKER_00: I want to use the word rest.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say that I'm like asleep at the wheel here,
4:35
SPEAKER_00: but just to kind of relax a bit and get more into this sort of heartfelt
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SPEAKER_00: conversation with people's stories,
4:44
SPEAKER_00: with people's experiences and
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Instead of kind of staying in that heady space where sometimes
4:50
I can lean too far
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in that direction in my life and the way that I talk about
4:55
these concepts.
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So it's been a gift to me to kind of land and move more from
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the heart space.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I love the Q and a episodes and they're a great way to take that abstract
5:08
SPEAKER_01: information and apply it.
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SPEAKER_01: And I would imagine for listeners,
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it's really beneficial to have these questions submitted by
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moms who are going
5:17
SPEAKER_01: through this,
5:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
5:19
SPEAKER_01: and asking these specific questions for how to apply this,
5:24
SPEAKER_01: this material.
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SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm really grateful for the questions too.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: And I just want to say too,
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SPEAKER_01: I know it's vulnerable.
5:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
5:34
You know,
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it's vulnerable to submit these questions,
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even though they're anonymous.
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It can feel really intimidating to have your your circumstance
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discussed on the air.
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SPEAKER_01: So.
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I just want to appreciate the courage that that takes and to
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also know that there
5:55
SPEAKER_01: are no wrong questions.
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Even if some questions sound alike,
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sometimes we'll cluster them,
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but it never...
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hurts to ask a similar question because it's going to give us
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an opportunity to
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SPEAKER_01: reinforce that information,
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SPEAKER_01: to maybe add some nuance to it,
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SPEAKER_01: answer it a little bit differently.
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You know,
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everybody benefits from hearing the same things repeatedly,
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to be honest.
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But there's also likely to be new information based on the way
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you asked it because
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SPEAKER_01: it's going to be different than the way it was in the past.
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SPEAKER_01: So please never hesitate.
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to submit a question um for that reason right just know that
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all your questions are
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welcome and they benefit the listeners in addition you know to
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hopefully giving you
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SPEAKER_01: something to work with so
6:51
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
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And thank you for raising the courage aspect and the
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vulnerability aspect.
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SPEAKER_00: And what popped into my mind,
6:59
SPEAKER_00: right when you said this is,
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SPEAKER_00: even though it's anonymous,
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SPEAKER_00: it can be so vulnerable.
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SPEAKER_00: And I could not agree more.
7:07
And it takes me back to kind of my time as a student with the
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Neufeld Institute.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: And so I just want to share a little bit about kind of
7:18
SPEAKER_00: Being essentially a name on a screen,
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SPEAKER_00: taking an online course,
7:24
SPEAKER_00: and we could go back like,
7:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know how many years,
7:27
SPEAKER_00: many years,
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SPEAKER_00: let's just say many years,
7:29
SPEAKER_00: almost maybe like nine years.
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When I first started taking those courses,
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I couldn't even attend the live sessions on Zoom.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, it was too vulnerable.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: I just was like, nope, I'm just going to watch the videos.
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SPEAKER_00: I can't even click into a Zoom room.
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SPEAKER_00: I didn't even have to put my real name on the screen.
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SPEAKER_00: There was no, like, vulnerable, you know, political content or identity.
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You know,
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it was just this material and this experience of being in the
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world,
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you know,
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SPEAKER_00: It is vulnerable.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: And it took me years to even listen to the live sessions.
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Then it took me like a while to participate in the live session
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by logging in.
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SPEAKER_00: And then...
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SPEAKER_00: To participate in the chat.
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SPEAKER_00: And now you can't get me to shut up in those chats when I do a class.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm chatty, chatty, chatty, chatty.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: But it was I am not joking when I say it took multiple classes online.
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SPEAKER_00: It took multiple years online.
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for me to build up that courage and to allow myself to be
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vulnerable in the way
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SPEAKER_00: where I could ask a question or participate live.
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SPEAKER_00: And I'm, we don't even show our faces in those classes.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: This is on a dark screen.
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So just,
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yeah,
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I just want to share that example from my own experience that
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SPEAKER_00: It was so amazing to learn about vulnerability,
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SPEAKER_00: which is where we're going to go next,
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SPEAKER_00: actually.
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SPEAKER_00: After this episode 10, we're going to talk about vulnerability.
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SPEAKER_00: To be learning about that construct at the same time,
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SPEAKER_00: I was like realizing that was what was going on for me.
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SPEAKER_01: That's what was going through my mind as you were telling your story.
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SPEAKER_01: How interesting, knowing that they're...
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SPEAKER_01: they're going to do everything they can to make it a safe environment.
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SPEAKER_01: And yet we have our own stuff, right.
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That defends us against that vulnerability,
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you know,
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and so being patient with yourself.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: And,
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SPEAKER_01: and yeah,
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SPEAKER_01: just allowing,
9:47
SPEAKER_01: allowing whatever is coming up and,
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SPEAKER_01: and we'll do our best,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:52
SPEAKER_01: to make this a safe place for your questions and,
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: And to acknowledge that our defenses are there for a reason.
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And I think that kind of is a great bridge to the first
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question we want to respond to today.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: Yes, indeed.
10:10
SPEAKER_00: that the brain has its reasons.
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SPEAKER_00: The defenses are there for a reason.
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SPEAKER_00: So do you want to read the, our first question for this episode?
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
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SPEAKER_01: It's short, but juicy.
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SPEAKER_01: I get defensive and angry easily.
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SPEAKER_01: And then in parentheses,
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SPEAKER_01: although I'm not a grudge keeper,
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are there any specific strategies for keeping a lid on this
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automatic response?
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she even uses that word defensive bingo yeah do you have
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something you want to dive
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in with or oh gosh i have i have lots of thoughts on this one
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you go and then yeah
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SPEAKER_00: okay um i have a lot of thoughts too um
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SPEAKER_00: in terms of the getting defensive aspect,
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SPEAKER_00: I think,
11:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:15
SPEAKER_00: just starting from a place of,
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SPEAKER_00: of saying we get defensive for a reason.
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SPEAKER_00: So first of all,
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SPEAKER_00: I invite you to just say to yourself,
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have a lot of grace with yourself that something you're
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reacting to something,
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SPEAKER_00: something is,
11:35
SPEAKER_00: um,
11:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:38
SPEAKER_00: either,
11:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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you know something's getting under your skin you know whether
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it's a actual
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something that's like an insult to your dignity so essentially
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you know you're
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there is a vulnerability there that you know is is kicking
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those defenses in
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SPEAKER_00: automatically so just giving yourself that grace to say
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SPEAKER_00: you know, it's okay that I get defensive.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: Everybody gets defensive.
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SPEAKER_00: This happens for a reason.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: And then I would say the second piece around the defensive aspect,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: for me,
12:23
SPEAKER_00: as well as my partner,
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SPEAKER_00: it's like,
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it's helped me over time with myself and in relationship to her
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to notice,
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SPEAKER_00: to be,
12:34
SPEAKER_00: to build just awareness around it.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm feeling really defensive.
12:42
And then what an amazing gift and help it's been for me to
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develop that awareness
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SPEAKER_00: of when she's getting defensive and
12:53
SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, okay, now we know the territory we're in.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: And we can hold it a little more lightly.
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And again,
13:06
kind of taking the judgment off of it,
13:09
getting defensive is bad.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: No, it's not.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: It just is.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: And I would say it is information.
13:23
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: It's information for you about you, you know, about those defenses.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: So I love to think of it that way.
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SPEAKER_01: Anything that gets stirred in us is information.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: And like you said, not wrong or bad, but what's our relationship to it?
13:46
And I love,
13:46
I love that idea of just acknowledging,
13:49
Oh,
13:49
I'm feeling defensive right now.
13:51
And even saying that out loud,
13:53
you know,
13:53
with,
13:54
it doesn't need to be an attack.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: You said, bring awareness to it.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: And I, yeah, the word that comes to my mind is consciousness.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: Like the more we notice it,
14:03
the more capacity we have to kind of catch it in the moment and
14:07
call ourselves out.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: So things don't escalate with, with the,
14:14
SPEAKER_01: usually the other person, right?
14:15
SPEAKER_01: That's part of the dynamic that's creating the defensiveness.
14:22
And I also want to bring attention to this question because I
14:27
think as we know,
14:27
the questions we ask ourselves are so important and has to do
14:31
with what we're
14:31
SPEAKER_01: seeing.
14:33
Are there any specific strategies for keeping a lid on this
14:37
automatic response?
14:39
SPEAKER_01: And so I love to also notice the metaphors we're using.
14:43
Like keeping a lid on it,
14:45
you know,
14:46
sounds like something you need to control and shove down.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: You know,
14:51
SPEAKER_01: and while I would,
14:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:54
SPEAKER_01: encourage that pause,
14:59
SPEAKER_01: calling it out might be a more productive strategy.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, noticing I'm feeling defensive right now.
15:05
SPEAKER_01: This is my stuff.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:08
you know but letting letting the other person involved know
15:12
that you're feeling
15:12
defensive and then another strategy is to check your narrative
15:18
here the story i'm
15:21
telling myself is right because that's also going to help you
15:25
to know a little bit
15:27
SPEAKER_01: more about this defense is if you
15:30
check that narrative of why you're feeling defensive with the
15:34
person you're
15:34
interacting with and let them let them clarify what's going on
15:40
for them because
15:41
it's it's likely not what you think it is right right yeah so
15:47
it's it's so it's a
15:48
SPEAKER_01: way to start working with it yeah and even starting to clear that defense
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, who am I feeling defensive right now?
16:00
SPEAKER_00: You know,
16:02
SPEAKER_00: being able to communicate that to yourself,
16:05
SPEAKER_00: if it's,
16:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:07
SPEAKER_00: you're alone and you're processing a situation,
16:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:10
SPEAKER_00: that's happened.
16:12
Or if you're in the heat of something that's going on with your
16:16
child or your spouse,
16:18
you know,
16:20
SPEAKER_00: You know,
16:21
SPEAKER_00: I think exactly like you're saying,
16:23
SPEAKER_00: it has at least in my,
16:26
SPEAKER_00: in some situations for me,
16:27
SPEAKER_00: helped me to say it out loud to that other person.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Wow, I am feeling super defensive.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, this is where I'm at.
16:38
So,
16:40
you know,
16:40
I don't want to feel this way,
16:43
but this is where I am right now.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe it's not the best time to keep going.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you need a little space or maybe you just, you kind of...
16:54
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like counter,
16:56
SPEAKER_00: maybe,
16:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if this is the best word,
16:58
SPEAKER_00: but instead of the doubling down and the tightening of that defense,
17:04
SPEAKER_00: it kind of lets some air,
17:07
SPEAKER_00: some oxygen in.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: It gives it a little less grip.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: Ideally, you can step to the side of it.
17:18
Kind of you're coming alongside it versus having it be just
17:22
like you're totally consumed by it.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: I was just going to say that.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
17:28
And I'm realizing,
17:29
too,
17:30
that that can factor in is whether it grips you,
17:37
that defensiveness.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: Right.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: Which it can do and it can it can grip pretty strongly.
17:44
And so you might not be able to communicate about it until
17:48
later,
17:49
until it eases.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:52
And then you can come back even and say,
17:55
you know,
17:55
can I share what was happening for me?
17:58
If you're feeling that capacity,
18:00
you know,
18:01
and then have that conversation.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: Then you can check your narrative.
18:07
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
18:08
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: Whether in the moment or later on,
18:12
maybe it's only later on for a long time and you just keep
18:16
going back to it.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Okay, now an hour or two later, I realize I was really defensive.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Now, 30 minutes later, I realize I was really defensive.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: Now,
18:28
SPEAKER_00: five minutes later,
18:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:30
and then you're building that awareness and that recognition of
18:35
how it feels in
18:36
SPEAKER_00: yourself.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: the way that you're acting when you're in that defensive mode.
18:42
And ideally,
18:43
eventually over time,
18:45
maybe you can realize it in the moment.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: But don't set that as your first expectation.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: Just don't.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: Or that if you don't meet that expectation of, I'm going to avoid this.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: I am never going to avoid being defensive.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm never going to avoid...
19:10
SPEAKER_00: Losing my temper.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm just not.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: But I can get better at it.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: I can build more awareness.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: I can gain more tools.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: And I can keep at it.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: And have that grace and acceptance that I'm never going to be perfect.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: But I can...
19:34
But I can get better at understanding what's going on for me
19:38
and how I can better
19:40
SPEAKER_00: relate to those that I love.
19:43
Relate to those that I love and relate,
19:45
I think,
19:45
to our own uncomfortable feelings.
19:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: Without pathologizing them.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: And judging ourselves, like you said, for having them.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: And think that we should get rid of those feelings.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: It's really about what is our relationship to the feelings.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: Because they're there for a reason, all of them.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: Always.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: They're always there for a reason.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: We're being moved.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: By emotion or by the vulnerability that's kicking in those defenses,
20:25
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:26
SPEAKER_00: a lot of this is not our will being imposed.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of what maybe you were getting at with keeping a lid on.
20:37
You know,
20:37
that sounds like I'm going to exert my will over this emotion
20:42
that's moving me.
20:44
and that you know i don't know that that can ultimately bear
20:49
fruit i don't i know
20:51
i've tried it my whole life you know and maybe there's moments
20:56
when i can shut up
20:57
or keep a lid on and it works you know that it's not that it
21:00
never works um but i
21:03
SPEAKER_00: think where i have
21:06
Even just this past couple months of doing our conversations
21:11
together in the
21:11
SPEAKER_00: podcast and looking at the Neufeld material,
21:14
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
21:14
SPEAKER_00: okay,
21:14
SPEAKER_00: no,
21:16
I want to try to inch my way out of the trying to contain it
21:21
and be more conscious
21:23
SPEAKER_00: of trying to add or walking away or just letting people,
21:30
SPEAKER_00: like my kids or my spouse,
21:31
SPEAKER_00: know I'm not in a good place right now.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: Please don't talk to me.
21:35
you know,
21:36
just different strategies for like removing myself from the
21:41
engagement.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: If I know I can't do adding,
21:44
SPEAKER_00: um,
21:48
SPEAKER_00: or when I can do adding,
21:49
SPEAKER_00: when it's not,
21:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm not,
21:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:53
SPEAKER_00: at the,
21:53
SPEAKER_00: the,
21:53
SPEAKER_00: the heat of the fire,
21:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:56
SPEAKER_00: when the fire is a little smaller,
21:58
SPEAKER_00: maybe that's when I can do the adding while I am super frustrated and,
22:04
SPEAKER_00: And I care about my child.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: I care about my relationship.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to hurt or shame or do,
22:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:14
SPEAKER_00: whatever it is that my reacting to my frustration could,
22:19
SPEAKER_00: the impact it could have on the other person or on the relationship.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so walking away, pausing, communicating.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: I know I'm really defensive right now.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm really angry right now.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: I just need some space.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: And then that piece about adding rather than cutting it out.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
22:44
and I do want to bring in a little bit of a Jungian lens here
22:49
just to encourage the
22:52
SPEAKER_01: relationship with the emotions.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: I like that adding in,
23:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm frustrated,
23:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm angry,
23:02
SPEAKER_01: and I care,
23:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:04
SPEAKER_01: walking away,
23:05
SPEAKER_01: if that's helpful.
23:06
And if we can start working with the emotion,
23:10
this is how we move toward wholeness.
23:13
You know,
23:14
if we can understand that the feelings we are having are ours,
23:19
right?
23:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, own that relationship to those feelings and learn from them.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: That gets us closer to wholeness and authenticity.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: And I can't remember.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: It was part of the integrative process,
23:38
SPEAKER_00: I think,
23:41
where Neufeld talked about some of the fruit of that process in
23:46
and of itself being
23:47
SPEAKER_00: able to differentiate between
23:51
me and my feelings you know so it's like you know the more that
23:56
we can develop this
23:56
awareness of I'm feeling defensive or I'm feeling angry and
24:02
like see it come
24:03
alongside it you know that's also this this integrative process
24:08
at work that we're
24:10
continuing to work that muscle of maturity yes you know yes yes
24:17
yeah we have a
24:18
SPEAKER_01: little
24:20
phrase in the community we use you know that's what i see you i
24:24
see you trying to
24:24
take care of me and and talking to the defensiveness you know
24:28
this part of ourself
24:30
that is getting defensive you know with care and tenderness
24:35
which is what i'm
24:35
hearing you say like come alongside those feelings yeah that
24:39
are there for you
24:40
SPEAKER_01: they're there to to teach you about yourself
24:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: And I just want to quickly touch upon the angry.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've spoken to this in some past episodes,
24:54
but I want to say again that I have benefited greatly from
25:01
Neufeld's construct
25:05
SPEAKER_00: of...
25:07
SPEAKER_00: This idea that frustration is kind of the primal root emotion...
25:15
underneath anger um so what he you know his his construct
25:22
around this is you know
25:24
when something is not working for us especially when it's
25:28
something we care about
25:31
you know that's when we are moved by frustration and the
25:36
secondary level of that is
25:37
SPEAKER_00: when we assign blame um
25:41
So,
25:42
you know,
25:43
and the three kind of options that we normally go to are blame
25:48
other people.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: another person or another thing or a situation that's,
25:56
SPEAKER_00: and then that's what he would call anger.
25:58
You know,
25:59
when we say,
25:59
I am so angry,
26:00
it's like the blame is going outward.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, when the blame goes back to us, it, it is guilt.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: Um,
26:11
SPEAKER_00: because we're taking responsibility,
26:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:13
SPEAKER_00: it's,
26:13
SPEAKER_00: and,
26:13
SPEAKER_00: and I don't want to get the,
26:14
SPEAKER_00: don't,
26:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
26:15
I don't want to get one dimensional with guilt because guilt is
26:18
a super important,
26:20
SPEAKER_00: um,
26:21
thing because it means we're taking responsibility and as as
26:24
parents we need to
26:26
feel guilty this is a really really crucial that we have hold
26:29
responsibility so but
26:32
that's another option and then the third option would be shame
26:37
where we would say i
26:38
SPEAKER_00: am to blame because there's something essentially flawed in me and
26:44
SPEAKER_00: So,
26:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:45
SPEAKER_00: the construct may not be perfect,
26:47
but I did just want to share that whenever I see people talking
26:51
about being angry,
26:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
26:54
SPEAKER_00: okay,
26:54
SPEAKER_00: so underneath that is going to be the frustration.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: But it could also be,
27:02
SPEAKER_00: and I don't know if I'm going to use the exact term,
27:04
SPEAKER_00: but like when someone has...
27:09
you know,
27:11
impacted your sense of dignity,
27:12
that there's been a violation of dignity.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: And so anger also has its work to do.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: And we can't just cast it out.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: Like it is part of being human.
27:30
It is part of being in relationship to the world and to others
27:34
that we are going to
27:36
SPEAKER_00: have to stand up for ourselves and,
27:39
SPEAKER_00: and,
27:39
SPEAKER_00: and,
27:40
and when our dignity has been violated or violated is not the
27:44
correct word,
27:45
SPEAKER_00: but I can't think of it's like an insult to the dignity or it's been,
27:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:50
SPEAKER_00: um,
27:51
SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's like the sword piercing,
27:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:55
SPEAKER_00: piercing us.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it has its work to do.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: Well, in consciousness, again, about what does this anger want from me?
28:07
SPEAKER_01: What is the information in this anger for me?
28:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
28:15
SPEAKER_00: just,
28:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:16
SPEAKER_00: want to highlight that getting,
28:17
SPEAKER_00: if we go to that deeper level where,
28:19
SPEAKER_00: again,
28:21
SPEAKER_00: something that I care about is not working.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
28:26
I'm facing and what is the separation I'm facing through that
28:30
to my attachments to
28:34
you know that's like the underground of this anger manifesting
28:42
itself through us
28:45
yeah we might need to do a whole episode on anger sometime
28:52
we've probably done
28:54
some yeah yeah oh yeah there's so much there's so much i'm just
29:02
going to tell a
29:02
quick story now we got to move on to the next question so just
29:05
as an example of
29:06
SPEAKER_00: this uh
29:08
I've been telling you,
29:09
you know,
29:10
the past two weeks,
29:11
I'm like,
29:11
you can't text me.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: You can't text me.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: So long story short, I lost my cell phone service two weeks ago.
29:20
Now,
29:20
the reason why this happened is because my wife and I were on
29:27
her mother's cell phone plan.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: Lower rates.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: We get a discount.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: So it turns out we were out of town.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: I get back two weeks ago,
29:38
SPEAKER_00: and that night I get this blip message on my phone that says,
29:41
SPEAKER_00: you no longer have data service.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what is going on?
29:46
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea what's going on.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: I just figured it was some weird thing I hadn't figured out yet.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: Well,
29:51
SPEAKER_00: the very next day I see my mother-in-law and she's like,
29:55
SPEAKER_00: oh yeah,
29:56
SPEAKER_00: you had to do that,
29:58
SPEAKER_00: that thing on the phone and get the update.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, I had no idea about this.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: So it turns out that my mother-in-law just hadn't
30:07
told us that the phone company had been sending messages for
30:11
like over like months
30:14
period of months that we had to do an eSIM update or we'd lose
30:19
our data you know
30:21
our data service so there was a one conversation with her and
30:25
my wife did you do
30:26
the update oh I know I have to do and then my wife said oh yeah
30:29
I gotta do that
30:29
SPEAKER_00: update was like a software she thought it was a software update and
30:33
SPEAKER_00: I'll go ahead and do it.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: That was it.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: There was no specifics shared.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: There was no you're going to lose your data service.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: So all of a sudden now I have no phone.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: And long story short,
30:48
we had a very frustrating experience trying to change to a
30:50
different carrier.
30:52
So just this morning before getting on our call,
30:56
you know,
30:57
we got up early as a family.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful morning.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: We went out to the river, you know, 20 minutes away from here.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: And our sons were fishing.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: We took them to fish.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: It was like they're, you know, they love fishing.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: They've been begging to fish.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: It's like this was a beautiful morning.
31:14
And I had my moment to go up to my wife and say,
31:19
I know that this is okay.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm okay to be without a phone for two weeks.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: No one has died.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: It's probably been good for me.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: There's some silver lines here.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: But I just want you to know that I am very frustrated.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:35
I am very frustrated because not only did your mom not
31:40
communicate clearly,
31:43
SPEAKER_00: but she hasn't even recognized the impact it had.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to get over it.
31:53
But I don't want to hold it inside and have it build up and
31:58
then come exploding out
32:00
SPEAKER_00: over some other situation.
32:03
Which is what tends to happen if we don't,
32:09
if we try to keep a lid on it.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: So, but to have that conversation, I've just turned 48.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's taken me till 48 years old.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's taken me, you know, a very long time.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
32:33
you know 14 years of of of a partnership of a marriage to like
32:41
be able to have that
32:43
exchange with my partner have her recognize it say you know I'm
32:46
really sorry her
32:47
not get defensive that's like amazing and just be like okay
32:52
we're good I just had
32:53
SPEAKER_00: to get it off my chest yes
32:56
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: I love you and I'm going to move on.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: And this is how conversations with my husband kind of look now.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: And again, like 22 years in, I'm coming up on 56.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: It takes, it takes a bit to develop the consciousness.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:19
You know,
33:20
but,
33:21
and,
33:21
and I would say though,
33:22
the more that you do it,
33:23
the easier it becomes.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's, it's hard at first.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: It's vulnerable at first.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, it feels a little scary.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: It's new.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: It's like, can this even work?
33:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:38
But as you start finding that grace for yourself and
33:42
understanding the defenses,
33:44
SPEAKER_01: the conversations become more,
33:47
SPEAKER_01: and not all the time.
33:48
I was going to say they become lighter,
33:51
but there are still difficult conversations to be had.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's the beauty of this relationship with your emotions.
33:57
And the courage to be vulnerable is that you get to address
34:02
these things that
34:02
SPEAKER_01: you've probably been keeping a lid on for a very long time.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:08
You know,
34:08
and they can start releasing and,
34:13
and you,
34:13
you,
34:14
you can move past a lot of it.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: I think that's what they're for.
34:18
I think that's what this time is for is for us to own it and do
34:25
something with it,
34:27
you know?
34:27
SPEAKER_01: So that's what I'm hearing too.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: Is taking personal responsibility for our experience.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: I think that was a pretty thorough answer to that question.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: Very, very, very.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's so...
34:45
SPEAKER_00: Like you said at the beginning, when we repeat things, it's so helpful.
34:49
And so I think each time we can turn these basic human
34:56
experiences of defensiveness
34:58
SPEAKER_00: and anger and emotion and just look at them from different angles.
35:02
Let the light in from a different angle,
35:06
a different perspective,
35:08
a different story.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: I just think it helps...
35:12
It just helps us open up to it and work with ourselves,
35:16
you know,
35:18
more gently.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: All right.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: I guess I had one more thought about just changing the question.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: Just the last question maybe too.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: What is this here to teach me?
35:34
SPEAKER_01: What is this defensiveness here to teach me?
35:40
SPEAKER_01: Or this anger.
35:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: So we have a little more agency instead of the automatic response.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: All right.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: Moving right along.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: You want to read the next one?
35:57
SPEAKER_00: All right.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
35:59
So we've got two more and we feel like they're kind of really
36:03
well suited to go one
36:05
SPEAKER_00: and then the next.
36:07
And they both bring us back to this experience of having a
36:12
child take a medical,
36:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:18
SPEAKER_00: medicalize.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: And so we want to talk about these questions.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: So the question starts, I have been relistening to season one.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: And as we are now in the midst of medicalization,
36:39
SPEAKER_00: I am responding differently to these episodes than when I first listened.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: The things I struggle with are the clarity around what you want,
36:51
SPEAKER_00: a relationship with your child,
36:53
SPEAKER_00: or to stop the medicalization as discussed in Season 1.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: Is it impossible to have both?
37:03
SPEAKER_00: My boundary which aligns with my beliefs and is important to me
37:10
SPEAKER_00: is medical harm and has been crossed.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: That boundary has been crossed.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: My priority is my child.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: If I give up on my boundaries,
37:26
does that indicate to my child that I'm okay with the decision
37:31
to medicalize?
37:33
SPEAKER_00: Or is it just an indicator,
37:36
SPEAKER_00: and then the listener puts in parentheses,
37:39
SPEAKER_00: like I need another one,
37:42
SPEAKER_00: that so many things,
37:45
SPEAKER_00: including personal boundaries,
37:47
SPEAKER_00: are out of my control?
37:49
I struggle with all of this and how you can be the wall of
37:53
futility and angel of comfort.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: This is discussed in season two.
38:01
Or if I have to choose a relationship with my child or wanting
38:05
to stop medical harm
38:07
SPEAKER_00: as discussed in season one.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: I think boundaries can be really confusing.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: And maybe we can start there.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: I have a lot to say.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: This question opens,
38:27
SPEAKER_01: I think,
38:28
SPEAKER_01: a lot of things that we've been wanting to share,
38:36
different ways to look at things when it comes to how we are
38:40
responding to our
38:42
SPEAKER_01: child's trans identity and their wants and needs and boundaries.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: Because I think this is where it can get a little confusing.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: We can have our boundary,
38:56
SPEAKER_01: but our boundary,
38:58
SPEAKER_01: quite likely in this situation,
38:59
SPEAKER_01: is different from their boundary.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: And we don't get to have a boundary on their medical choices.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: Nope.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well said.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, so what is the question really asking?
39:33
SPEAKER_01: Because I think what happens is if we think our boundary,
39:37
does it mean I can't have a relationship with somebody who has
39:44
a different boundary
39:45
SPEAKER_01: around this?
39:46
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: Or is it about using my resource?
39:52
SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
39:53
Once we get really clear on what boundaries are,
39:58
it kind of changes what's being asked.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's more about what does my boundary look like in relationship.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
40:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: What comes to mind, so I'm just going to go here, okay?
40:20
As I'm hearing you talk,
40:22
and I think you're pulling at some really important
40:26
distinctions,
40:28
okay?
40:32
Back in season one,
40:34
towards the end of the season,
40:36
one thing that I shared was that
40:40
SPEAKER_00: While I have healed my relationship to my parents greatly,
40:45
SPEAKER_00: they still do not approve of my relationship to my wife.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: This is and it's not just like approve.
40:52
It's like they this goes against their core belief system,
40:59
their core religious faith.
41:03
There's like,
41:05
there couldn't be something more important to my parents than
41:10
their faith.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: So they have had,
41:19
SPEAKER_00: they've made the decision,
41:20
SPEAKER_00: let me put it this way,
41:23
SPEAKER_00: that their relationship to me can co-exist with
41:34
SPEAKER_00: with me choosing to be in a same sex relationship,
41:43
SPEAKER_00: which is a total violation of everything they believe.
41:47
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know why,
41:53
SPEAKER_00: I don't know where I'm trying to exactly articulate here,
41:56
SPEAKER_00: but it's like,
41:58
SPEAKER_00: it's not the same as,
42:00
But it's an interesting comparison because that deeply held
42:05
belief of theirs and
42:06
SPEAKER_00: their faith has not changed.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: But what they have decided to do in order to,
42:16
SPEAKER_00: as you're saying in this question,
42:17
SPEAKER_00: prioritize their relationship to me,
42:25
SPEAKER_00: is to hold both.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:29
I think I'm also recognizing maybe that we're confusing
42:34
boundaries with values at times.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering if there's a little bit of that going on in this question.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: This is a strongly held value,
42:47
and you're talking about your parents' strongly held value and
42:51
belief system.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: It is foundational to their sense of who they are.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:57
And they have come to a place where they recognize they have an
43:02
adult child whose
43:04
SPEAKER_01: values and belief systems are fundamentally different.
43:08
Can you be in relationship with somebody with a fundamentally
43:12
different worldview
43:14
SPEAKER_01: and set of values?
43:16
SPEAKER_01: And I think this is...
43:19
SPEAKER_01: This is tearing humanity apart, our inability to do this.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that this is such a big question in today's world,
43:34
is how do we be in relationship with somebody who has very
43:39
different values?
43:42
SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's where I'm hearing the boundary,
43:44
SPEAKER_01: is I think sometimes we think we're supposed to put a boundary there.
43:50
and not have a relationship with somebody who doesn't align
43:55
with our values yeah
43:59
and and then there's the layer there of it being your child
44:02
your adult child you
44:03
SPEAKER_00: know and so i i don't know this from the question but i
44:09
It makes me wonder,
44:10
you know,
44:11
did mom tell her child,
44:15
I don't want you to medicalize.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: And the child turned 18 and went that way anyways.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, so I don't know that.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: But if that's the case,
44:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:26
SPEAKER_00: you can feel like I said no and you did it anyways,
44:30
SPEAKER_00: which is exactly how my parents feel.
44:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's exactly how they felt with me.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: I said no, not just around my, you know, around multiple things.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: And I did them anyways, you know, as an adult.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: And, um...
44:48
SPEAKER_00: But I think you are teasing apart something important here.
44:54
And I think maybe where we both may agree is that mom can
45:00
maintain boundaries and
45:03
SPEAKER_00: also be in relationship to her child,
45:06
SPEAKER_00: even if her child has chosen to medicalize.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
45:12
She doesn't have to change her thoughts,
45:16
her worries,
45:17
her concerns,
45:18
her values.
45:19
SPEAKER_00: Right.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: In order to maintain that relationship.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: Right.
45:28
SPEAKER_00: How do you hold that tension?
45:30
SPEAKER_00: How do you do that dance of having, it's again, here we are.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: This is about potentially integrity without the loss of diplomacy.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I want to kind of read this again.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: My priority is my child.
45:54
If I give up on my boundaries,
45:56
does that indicate to my child I'm okay with this decision?
46:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think this is something a lot of moms grapple with.
46:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: You know, that if I support my child... Yeah.
46:15
SPEAKER_01: One, am I giving up on my boundaries?
46:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what you're saying.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: These aren't, they're not mutually exclusive, right?
46:26
You can still have your boundaries and still have a
46:28
relationship and support your
46:30
kid and be clear about your values and what you think it is or
46:36
is not a good idea
46:37
SPEAKER_01: even,
46:38
SPEAKER_01: you know,
46:39
SPEAKER_01: just,
46:40
SPEAKER_01: we can't be attached to what they do with that information.
46:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: Um,
46:49
SPEAKER_01: Right.
46:50
I think if we...
46:52
I guess I'm trying to imagine what this looks like in real
46:54
life.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: And the only thing I can think of is my situation with my daughter.
46:59
Which is where my mantra kind of became,
47:04
we both want the healthiest outcomes for you.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: We both want what's healthiest for you.
47:09
SPEAKER_01: We disagree on what that is.
47:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:14
SPEAKER_01: And taking on a neutral attitude...
47:16
SPEAKER_01: So she knew my stance, but she knew I wasn't going anywhere.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: And then I get to decide my boundaries on how much of that I'm willing to
47:28
SPEAKER_01: contribute to or support.
47:31
And for me,
47:32
it was finding a different shared value that helped guide how I
47:37
responded.
47:39
SPEAKER_01: And that was her getting the best possible care.
47:42
SPEAKER_01: You know,
47:42
SPEAKER_01: that's what,
47:43
SPEAKER_01: that's what became,
47:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:46
SPEAKER_01: in my values hierarchy,
47:47
SPEAKER_01: that was more important to me than not contributing resources.
47:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: In the end,
47:53
SPEAKER_01: the ask never came,
47:57
but she knew I was willing to contribute to the best possible
48:00
care because in my
48:01
SPEAKER_01: imagination,
48:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
48:03
SPEAKER_01: and,
48:03
SPEAKER_01: and the potential care options were
48:07
I was willing to use my resources to make sure if she was going
48:12
to go this route
48:13
SPEAKER_01: that she'd get the best possible care.
48:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:18
SPEAKER_01: Those were my boundaries.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
48:21
SPEAKER_01: And my boundaries might look very different from yours.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't get to determine your boundaries.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: Right.
48:29
SPEAKER_01: I can only determine mine.
48:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is different.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: If you have children who aren't adults,
48:35
SPEAKER_01: of course,
48:36
SPEAKER_01: you know,
48:37
SPEAKER_00: as a parent,
48:37
SPEAKER_01: you do make that decision.
48:39
SPEAKER_01: But when we are dealing with adult children,
48:41
SPEAKER_01: this is this is this is this is a healthy relationship.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:49
Right,
48:49
is to not think you can determine somebody else,
48:52
another adult's boundaries.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
48:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
49:00
and there's so many different ways to talk about this or to try
49:06
to talk about it,
49:07
SPEAKER_00: but the thing that your child can't change...
49:17
SPEAKER_00: in this scenario is how you feel about it.
49:21
What you wish,
49:22
what you want,
49:24
you know,
49:24
like that's the futility that your child may experience.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
49:31
Like when I see you talking about being the wall of futility,
49:35
the angel of comfort,
49:36
it's like,
49:37
There may be many futilities your child faces in his or herself
49:42
or out in the world
49:44
SPEAKER_00: on many fronts,
49:44
SPEAKER_00: including this,
49:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:47
SPEAKER_00: path to medicalization,
49:49
SPEAKER_00: attempting to change sex.
49:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, we've talked about this in past episodes.
49:53
SPEAKER_00: But in his or her relationship to you,
49:56
SPEAKER_00: that futility is going to be that you are maintaining your integrity,
50:02
SPEAKER_00: your boundary,
50:03
SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
50:04
SPEAKER_00: of I don't agree with
50:08
with medicalization and maybe there's a and or a but that goes
50:16
with that but I know
50:18
I can't stop you and I love you no matter what I'm going to be
50:27
here for you no
50:28
matter what yeah there's another yes yes and that's the
50:36
integrity with diplomacy
50:38
Right,
50:38
or integrity without losing diplomacy,
50:40
I think is how you worded it.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: Something else I want to lift up about boundaries,
50:49
SPEAKER_01: too,
50:49
SPEAKER_01: and being the alpha is,
50:52
SPEAKER_01: because I think that might be implied here,
50:54
SPEAKER_01: and I could be wrong,
50:55
SPEAKER_01: but my priority is my child,
50:57
SPEAKER_01: right?
50:58
SPEAKER_01: She's talking about prioritizing the relationship.
51:00
I think we also think that that means everything's peachy and
51:05
there's no conflict,
51:06
right?
51:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, and that's, that's not where we're shooting for either.
51:11
SPEAKER_01: We want you to have boundaries and to be authentic.
51:18
SPEAKER_01: And,
51:18
SPEAKER_01: and so part of growing bigger is,
51:20
is being okay with them being upset with you and them not
51:25
getting what they want
51:26
SPEAKER_01: from you,
51:28
SPEAKER_01: which can be really,
51:29
SPEAKER_01: really hard and feel like it's hard on the relationship.
51:32
SPEAKER_01: And that is a healthy boundary.
51:36
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:38
SPEAKER_01: and,
51:38
and a healthy parent can tolerate that anger and frustration
51:44
and resentment from
51:45
SPEAKER_01: the child.
51:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:53
SPEAKER_00: And,
51:53
SPEAKER_00: and I think you,
51:55
SPEAKER_00: and maybe you,
51:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
51:56
SPEAKER_00: the listener who submitted this question,
51:59
SPEAKER_00: maybe you've already done this a hundred times.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but I just think,
52:04
SPEAKER_00: You know,
52:06
SPEAKER_00: this question,
52:06
SPEAKER_00: if I give up my boundaries,
52:07
SPEAKER_00: does that indicate to my child I'm okay with this decision?
52:11
SPEAKER_00: No.
52:12
You know,
52:13
I want to say,
52:13
like,
52:14
you can say,
52:15
I don't agree with your decision.
52:21
SPEAKER_00: But I love you, and I want you in my life forever.
52:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be here for you forever.
52:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, like, you can...
52:36
SPEAKER_00: You know,
52:37
make clear where you're at while acknowledging it's out of your
52:42
control and say,
52:45
SPEAKER_00: and I'm still going to be here for you.
52:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm still, I'm holding you in my heart.
52:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going anywhere.
52:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm your forever relationship.
52:57
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
53:01
SPEAKER_01: Hi,
53:01
this is Stoic Mom breaking into this conversation to let you
53:04
know that this episode
53:05
SPEAKER_01: of Attachment Matters is sponsored by the SMP Tapestry,
53:10
a private online coaching community offered through the Stoic
53:13
Mom Project.
53:15
If you're a mom with a trans-identified child and you feel like
53:18
something in your
53:19
SPEAKER_01: current approach just isn't working,
53:21
SPEAKER_01: I want to invite you to explore joining us in the tapestry.
53:25
SPEAKER_01: This isn't a quick fix program or a casual support group.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: It's a place for deep,
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53:33
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53:35
SPEAKER_01: as well as support to apply what Rose and I share on this podcast.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: Yet I'm the first to say that tapestry is not for everyone.
53:44
SPEAKER_01: In fact, we now ask for a one-year commitment.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: A bold move, I know.
53:50
But one that signals a readiness to show up for yourself in a
53:53
consistent,
53:54
meaningful way.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: To help you discern whether this is the right next step for you,
53:59
SPEAKER_01: I've put together a tapestry readiness package.
54:03
It includes a short but potent survey to help you assess where
54:06
you are emotionally
54:08
SPEAKER_01: and whether the tapestry can meet you there.
54:11
SPEAKER_01: Once you complete it,
54:12
you'll also have the option to book a free 20-minute one-on-one
54:16
conversation with
54:17
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54:17
SPEAKER_01: Stoic Mom,
54:18
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54:23
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54:27
SPEAKER_01: To get started, visit bit.ly slash tapestry readiness.
54:33
SPEAKER_01: That's bit.ly slash tapestry readiness, all lowercase, no spaces.
54:42
SPEAKER_01: You'll find the link in the show notes as well.
54:44
SPEAKER_01: Now let's get you back to that Q&A.
54:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: You know,
54:49
SPEAKER_01: I want to bring up another scenario,
54:51
SPEAKER_01: too,
54:51
and it's one you and I have talked about behind the scenes that
54:55
we've wanted to
54:57
SPEAKER_01: share with parents.
54:58
SPEAKER_01: And this goes back to,
55:01
SPEAKER_01: you'll have to remind me maybe,
55:03
SPEAKER_01: I think it was,
55:03
SPEAKER_01: I don't remember which episode.
55:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:07
It was the aggression,
55:08
the explosions of frustration and kids were stuck in
55:14
aggression.
55:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
55:15
And so,
55:16
you know,
55:17
we can take on the lingo of,
55:21
let's say,
55:22
the gender critical.
55:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's this talk about social transition.
55:26
And,
55:28
you know,
55:30
it's interesting to me that we know we're dealing with a whole
55:33
new cohort here.
55:35
SPEAKER_01: And I could be wrong,
55:36
SPEAKER_01: I haven't been plugged into a lot of this information in a long time,
55:40
SPEAKER_01: so maybe it has changed.
55:43
SPEAKER_01: But I feel like we can get too rigid in the recommendations.
55:48
I think social transition is like a no-no because that always
55:53
leads,
55:53
right,
55:54
to medicalization.
55:55
And I would say,
55:56
I wanna remind again,
55:58
we're dealing with a different cohort.
56:03
SPEAKER_01: And in some ways, it's still the Wild West.
56:09
SPEAKER_01: And there are situations where to ease that frustration,
56:14
parents have agreed to using the pronouns or using the
56:18
preferred name to keep that
56:22
SPEAKER_01: child close.
56:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
56:25
SPEAKER_01: Because they know they are that child's best bet.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:29
SPEAKER_01: And so to stay in relationship with that child,
56:32
SPEAKER_01: they have changed their boundary for that reason,
56:39
SPEAKER_01: right?
56:39
SPEAKER_01: It's like, I know I'm my child's best bet.
56:43
SPEAKER_01: I know my child needs me in his or her life.
56:46
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm going to do this thing.
56:49
SPEAKER_01: that if I don't, they are stuck in that aggression, right?
56:53
SPEAKER_01: And they can't be close to me because I am holding my boundary, right?
56:58
SPEAKER_01: Like this is my boundary and I'm not going to budge.
57:01
SPEAKER_01: And that boundary is pushing your child away, you know?
57:05
SPEAKER_01: So not to say that there's anything, you know, that that's wrong.
57:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to say that you get to choose your boundaries,
57:13
SPEAKER_01: but I would say,
57:14
SPEAKER_01: notice what it is doing to the relationship.
57:18
SPEAKER_01: And this is where you do have to get really clear with yourself.
57:23
SPEAKER_01: What are my priorities?
57:24
SPEAKER_01: What are my values?
57:26
SPEAKER_01: What is most important to me?
57:28
SPEAKER_01: And from an attachment perspective, you know, from a...
57:32
SPEAKER_01: from our children need us perspective,
57:35
SPEAKER_01: you know,
57:35
SPEAKER_01: it's,
57:36
SPEAKER_01: it's okay to consider what is going to ease some frustration,
57:40
SPEAKER_01: do it with intentionality.
57:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's, it's strategic in a lot of ways.
57:46
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is actually.
57:48
SPEAKER_00: And it's not,
57:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to confuse it with manipulation,
57:52
SPEAKER_00: but I do,
57:52
SPEAKER_00: I just get this image of like,
57:55
SPEAKER_00: it takes me to,
57:56
SPEAKER_00: um,
58:01
this idea that like no matter what it is that drove your child
58:07
to do this or that
58:08
is driving that is moving your child to this identity you know
58:13
to the path of
58:14
medicalization you know whatever they're in pursuit you know
58:19
maybe pursuit you know
58:23
reaching for this thing that they are probably never going to
58:25
realize okay
58:28
um we we have to get ourselves bigger than it and hold all of
58:35
it and it's kind of
58:39
like from that perspective of being that container for them
58:44
that's able to hold all
58:46
of this frustration hold all this pursuit whatever is moving
58:50
them inside that we
58:52
SPEAKER_00: can still love and embrace them and extend that generous invitation um
58:57
Like when I think of someone saying I will call them the name
59:01
they want to be
59:02
SPEAKER_00: called and the pronouns as,
59:06
SPEAKER_00: like you're saying,
59:07
SPEAKER_00: like a strategy,
59:08
SPEAKER_00: it's like that's what I see it as.
59:09
SPEAKER_00: It's like part of that generous invitation of if I can be big enough,
59:15
SPEAKER_00: if I can stretch,
59:20
SPEAKER_00: the chances are that my outcomes are down the long road of this.
59:26
may be better for my child because of their strengthened
59:31
relationship to me.
59:32
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
59:33
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
59:35
that it's almost like a temporary,
59:37
you know,
59:38
I don't,
59:39
maybe it's,
59:40
maybe it is permanent.
59:41
SPEAKER_00: We don't, you know, how do we know?
59:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
59:44
SPEAKER_00: But it is something that you could see as like,
59:48
I have to do this for now in order to help my child rest in
59:53
relationship to me in
59:55
SPEAKER_00: order to help soften my child's defenses,
59:59
SPEAKER_00: help them lean on me,
1:00:00
SPEAKER_00: trust in me.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_00: And that's where like,
1:00:05
that's that's again what are we yearning for our yearning is
1:00:10
for them to meet their
1:00:11
full potential for them to mature for them to have intimacy and
1:00:15
relationships and
1:00:16
deep attachments you know regardless of what name and pronouns
1:00:22
they use you know
1:00:23
SPEAKER_00: like that part is painful it's so hard but it's
1:00:31
it is not ultimately going to be the decider of,
1:00:35
can they meet that potential?
1:00:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, their ability to have deep attachments is.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:00:50
And what I do love this idea of getting bigger than,
1:00:55
you know,
1:00:56
and,
1:00:56
and can,
1:00:57
uh,
1:00:59
it's it's back to those metaphors you know and getting bigger
1:01:03
than is very
1:01:04
different than needing to be right which i think can also keep
1:01:08
us rigidly in our
1:01:10
boundaries you know i i know i'm right about this and i'm not
1:01:14
gonna budge yeah
1:01:17
SPEAKER_01: because i disagree with this decision um
1:01:22
SPEAKER_01: But I will say too,
1:01:24
SPEAKER_01: and this is tricky,
1:01:25
SPEAKER_01: this is hard,
1:01:26
but one thing that I determined for myself is you were talking
1:01:30
about what is moving
1:01:31
SPEAKER_01: her or moving your child toward this.
1:01:35
I realized I didn't want to be one of those factors and that if
1:01:40
I was too rigid,
1:01:42
SPEAKER_01: the way I would move my daughter was away from me and into her.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_01: where she felt she belonged.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_01: And that's, yeah, that's what I'm hearing and what you're saying too.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_01: Can I get big enough to keep my child close?
1:02:05
SPEAKER_01: You know, and there's no guarantees.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_01: Those pulls are strong,
1:02:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:02:10
but doing what is in our power to make the family system strong
1:02:15
enough to hold
1:02:16
SPEAKER_01: what's happening.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_01: So that they are not, so that they don't consider somewhere else home.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_00: Or, yeah.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_00: Or like you've said so many times, there's so much out there.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_00: They can just talk about narratives and stories.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:02:40
everywhere they turn they're being told that you're you hate
1:02:43
them everywhere they
1:02:45
turn they're being told that you're evil that they're facing
1:02:48
rejection because of
1:02:50
any boundaries you do have in place you know it's so how do you
1:02:55
get bigger than
1:02:55
SPEAKER_00: that how do you how do you you know
1:03:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:03:06
SPEAKER_00: How do you come alongside this whole mess?
1:03:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, and now I need to back up and talk about blame again.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_01: Because, and this is difficult too.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: It can be easy to blame the ideology.
1:03:28
SPEAKER_01: And this is the world we live in.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_01: It is what it is.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_01: And if we can't...
1:03:35
If we can't find a way to take some personal responsibility,
1:03:39
we've got no recourse.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_01: Right?
1:03:44
SPEAKER_01: This is what we're dealing with.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_01: And it is going to demand that you get bigger, Dan.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_01: It's not fair.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_01: In fact, it sucks.
1:04:00
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
1:04:01
SPEAKER_01: And it is where we are.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_01: This is the reality.
1:04:07
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
1:04:09
SPEAKER_01: So in order to accomplish this getting bigger than we need to,
1:04:14
SPEAKER_01: we need to examine that,
1:04:15
SPEAKER_01: you know?
1:04:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
1:04:23
And so I think maybe kind of wrapping this question up and
1:04:26
moving to our last
1:04:28
SPEAKER_00: question,
1:04:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:04:33
SPEAKER_00: You can be the wall of futility and the angel of comfort.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_00: But that wall of futility that you are is going to be just,
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:04:42
SPEAKER_00: there may be some things your child wants that you can't do.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
1:04:48
SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
1:04:50
But you do not have to choose between a relationship with your
1:04:54
child and wanting,
1:04:56
SPEAKER_00: wanting to stop medical harm.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_00: But you, I encourage you to
1:05:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, realize that you probably cannot stop it.
1:05:11
SPEAKER_00: But you can be your child's best bet.
1:05:15
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
1:05:18
Even if they have chosen this path and you don't know what the
1:05:23
future holds.
1:05:24
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:05:28
SPEAKER_01: And thank you so much for this question.
1:05:30
It was an opportunity to talk about some of these really
1:05:32
difficult things.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_01: So we are grateful.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_00: Yep, absolutely.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_00: So with our remaining minutes here,
1:05:42
SPEAKER_00: I just want to read the last question out,
1:05:45
SPEAKER_00: which is,
1:05:45
SPEAKER_00: how do I continue loving my child...
1:05:51
SPEAKER_00: After medicalization, okay?
1:05:55
How do I continue loving my child when she presents as a
1:06:00
repulsive physical version
1:06:02
SPEAKER_00: of what she used to be?
1:06:04
SPEAKER_00: Facial hair, receding hairline, lowered voice.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_00: How do I find her essence that still exists deep inside?
1:06:15
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:06:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this one just... I feel it in my heart as you're reading it.
1:06:26
SPEAKER_01: So hard.
1:06:26
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
1:06:30
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
1:06:35
SPEAKER_01: And I'm realizing we might also need to do an episode on love.
1:06:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:44
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm not sure that that's what...
1:06:48
SPEAKER_01: What this is about, you know, it's about feeling close.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, it's about attachment.
1:06:55
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
1:06:59
SPEAKER_00: How do I stay attached to my child when I feel repulsed?
1:07:04
SPEAKER_00: Because all of the senses are now affronted.
1:07:09
SPEAKER_00: Sight, sound, taste, touch.
1:07:11
SPEAKER_00: Smell.
1:07:14
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:07:20
SPEAKER_00: And this may seem like overly simplistic,
1:07:23
SPEAKER_00: but some of Neufeld's material around kids who are adopted or divorced.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, the loss of a parent, the loss of, you know.
1:07:40
SPEAKER_00: He talks about this idea of like,
1:07:43
SPEAKER_00: even if the attachment is a fantasy attachment,
1:07:46
SPEAKER_00: like even if it's in the realm of imagination,
1:07:50
SPEAKER_00: he talks about like doing what you can do to facilitate that attachment.
1:07:58
that that that fantasy attachment like or like someone who's
1:08:03
passed away and you
1:08:06
know it's like a grandmother a grandfather who's gone but how
1:08:09
attachment can still
1:08:12
be that's like that forever you know that that that that we can
1:08:17
still experience
1:08:19
SPEAKER_00: that sense of attachment or even deepen it sometimes
1:08:24
SPEAKER_00: And so when we go back to that concept of being bigger than,
1:08:30
SPEAKER_00: for mom,
1:08:30
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
1:08:32
SPEAKER_00: even if you have to...
1:08:35
SPEAKER_00: conjure,
1:08:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:37
SPEAKER_00: bring an image,
1:08:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:39
SPEAKER_00: look at the pictures of your daughter pre-medicalization,
1:08:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:45
SPEAKER_00: keep them privately,
1:08:47
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:47
SPEAKER_00: hold those close to your heart.
1:08:51
SPEAKER_00: Imagine,
1:08:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:53
both of those visions or the physical traits side by side where
1:08:59
you're able to hold
1:09:00
SPEAKER_00: that presence inside
1:09:05
at the same time as the new,
1:09:08
the different way that she has physically been altered.
1:09:13
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
1:09:13
SPEAKER_00: that's what comes to me,
1:09:15
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
1:09:16
SPEAKER_00: is maybe as a parent,
1:09:23
we also have to create that fantasy attachment in terms of what
1:09:28
our senses are
1:09:29
SPEAKER_00: experiencing.
1:09:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:09:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:09:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious what you think about that.
1:09:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what I'm hearing.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_01: And also looking for...
1:09:42
I think we can train our lens potentially to look for what we
1:09:47
love in somebody.
1:09:48
SPEAKER_01: This is something I had to practice as a teacher, honestly, with kids.
1:09:53
And I knew on the first day of class who I was going to have to
1:09:57
work harder with.
1:09:59
SPEAKER_01: And they often became almost my favorites.
1:10:05
SPEAKER_01: I hate to use that word,
1:10:06
SPEAKER_01: but because I had to work harder,
1:10:09
SPEAKER_01: I think,
1:10:10
SPEAKER_01: to find what I loved in them,
1:10:14
SPEAKER_01: It almost made the attachment stronger, if that makes sense.
1:10:19
SPEAKER_01: I want to acknowledge disgust as a primal emotion.
1:10:23
SPEAKER_01: It is an emotion of survival.
1:10:26
SPEAKER_01: So it is very real.
1:10:29
And then the getting bigger than,
1:10:34
because I think that that's what we've got here.
1:10:39
You know,
1:10:41
and I'm going to plug Jungian again here as a Jungian
1:10:44
practitioner.
1:10:45
SPEAKER_01: I think the way we do this is through some shadow work,
1:10:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:10:53
that the disgust that we're feeling is going to bring up a lot
1:10:56
of our own stuff
1:10:58
that we need to work through that will build our capacity to
1:11:03
feel that love
1:11:06
SPEAKER_01: unconditionally.
1:11:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:11
yeah yeah what is being asked here is so much bigger and harder
1:11:20
and than any mom
1:11:24
ever thought they were going to have to do yeah and it is the
1:11:29
reality again this is
1:11:30
the world we live in yeah yeah so what resources do you have to
1:11:39
help you with that
1:11:40
SPEAKER_01: growth
1:11:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:11:44
SPEAKER_00: And what it's like.
1:11:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
1:11:49
SPEAKER_00: And just thinking about.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_00: I've got a few different thoughts at the same time,
1:11:54
SPEAKER_00: I think about part of it is like,
1:11:57
SPEAKER_00: how do you build up that.
1:11:59
that it's like the construct of play comes to mind,
1:12:05
where it's almost this bubble.
1:12:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, the imagination exists and has its playground in play.
1:12:16
So it's like as you have those tears and you're mourning the
1:12:22
loss,
1:12:22
grieving the loss,
1:12:25
the physical presence of your daughter what was and what will
1:12:29
never be again you
1:12:30
know that is like that is like experiencing death yes it's
1:12:35
experiencing a death yes
1:12:38
and so mourning that letting yourself grieve it while also
1:12:46
remembering that she's
1:12:48
SPEAKER_00: still here
1:12:50
SPEAKER_00: even though she has taken on a very different physical form.
1:12:56
And maybe it's some of those tiers of futility that can open up
1:13:04
a place to be able
1:13:05
SPEAKER_00: to play,
1:13:05
SPEAKER_00: to be able to imagine,
1:13:07
SPEAKER_00: to be able to be lighter.
1:13:11
SPEAKER_00: And if you are able to do that in relationship with her,
1:13:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:13:17
maybe there's ways that you can tap the threads that are the
1:13:20
same things that you
1:13:22
SPEAKER_00: love doing together,
1:13:25
SPEAKER_00: old jokes,
1:13:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:13:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:13:30
SPEAKER_00: finding that space of play where you can maintain the same in this,
1:13:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:13:38
SPEAKER_00: even though the physical has changed,
1:13:42
SPEAKER_00: what are the threads that are the same?
1:13:46
SPEAKER_00: in her,
1:13:46
but also in your things you've shared together over time or
1:13:50
that you have in
1:13:50
SPEAKER_00: common,
1:13:53
SPEAKER_00: you know?
1:13:53
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of,
1:13:54
SPEAKER_00: we talk about the senses as being,
1:13:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:13:57
SPEAKER_00: this primary way of attaching,
1:13:58
SPEAKER_00: but it's also more are quote unquote superficial.
1:14:02
SPEAKER_00: So it's like, what's that next layer?
1:14:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's the sameness.
1:14:06
SPEAKER_00: Where can you find something that's consistent and,
1:14:10
SPEAKER_00: And when I take it to the physical level, I'm like, what about her eyes?
1:14:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, take a picture of her eyes, you know, blow it up, zoom it in.
1:14:21
SPEAKER_00: What were her eyes like five years ago or however long ago it was?
1:14:25
SPEAKER_00: What are her eyes like now?
1:14:27
SPEAKER_00: Can you still see that?
1:14:29
SPEAKER_00: Those same eyes.
1:14:31
SPEAKER_00: People joke about hands, you know, like...
1:14:36
how do you clock a trans man like he's got small hands you know
1:14:41
like like is there
1:14:43
a texture of the skin on her hands or like the shape of her
1:14:47
hands that's the same
1:14:49
you know that that maybe hasn't been altered significantly i
1:14:55
you know like i i
1:14:56
whenever i see my son's hands like i think back to him as a
1:14:58
baby or as a toddler
1:15:00
SPEAKER_00: and it's like now he's 12 like
1:15:03
SPEAKER_00: Can I still see the toddler in those 12-year-old hands?
1:15:07
Is there something there that is still a quality that I can see
1:15:12
those hands?
1:15:16
SPEAKER_00: So, I don't know.
1:15:18
Those are just thoughts that come to mind of how can you find
1:15:23
that thread that's still there?
1:15:27
SPEAKER_01: Through those roots of attachment.
1:15:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, working the roots of attachment, working those roots.
1:15:37
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of it is going to be with you,
1:15:41
SPEAKER_00: in you,
1:15:43
SPEAKER_00: on your own,
1:15:45
SPEAKER_00: private,
1:15:47
SPEAKER_00: quiet,
1:15:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:15:49
SPEAKER_00: internal.
1:15:51
And that's going to help you when you do have interaction with
1:15:54
your daughter.
1:15:55
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know from the question how much there is or isn't.
1:15:59
to have that warmth and that twinkle in your eye that that's
1:16:05
her experience of you
1:16:08
is that you still see her and smile mm-hmm and this is
1:16:20
something to work toward
1:16:22
SPEAKER_01: yeah if you're not feeling that right now it's it's normal
1:16:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:16:32
SPEAKER_01: And not something to beat yourself up over.
1:16:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:16:38
SPEAKER_00: And this is where those boundaries, we come back to those boundaries.
1:16:41
SPEAKER_00: If you're not ready, if you aren't able, take the time you need.
1:16:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:16:52
SPEAKER_00: Take the time you need.
1:16:53
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
1:17:00
SPEAKER_01: This has really become an episode about boundaries, I think.
1:17:10
And it kind of brings us around to that last conversation we
1:17:13
were talking about.
1:17:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, now I feel like I've got a superficial relationship.
1:17:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe you too need to have that for a while.
1:17:28
SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
1:17:29
SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
1:17:31
SPEAKER_00: You're not going anywhere, but maybe you need to take the time.
1:17:36
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
1:17:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:17:48
SPEAKER_00: Speaking of time.
1:17:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:17:51
SPEAKER_00: Time to come to a close.
1:17:52
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
1:17:54
amazing questions what an amazing all three of these Q&A
1:17:59
episodes I think we're so
1:18:00
rich and we're so grateful and honored to get to speak to them
1:18:14
yeah thank you all
1:18:15
SPEAKER_01: so much and we'll be back in the next episode with more content
1:18:22
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
1:18:24
SPEAKER_00: See you all soon.
1:18:26
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
1:18:27
SPEAKER_01: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
1:18:31
Be sure to subscribe to our Substack to have new episodes
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1:18:36
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1:18:41
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1:18:43
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1:18:44
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1:18:46
comments and hope you
1:18:48
SPEAKER_01: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.