Latest / Claymore: Become Who You Are / #474 The Reality of Spiritual Warfare (#4); An Ignatius Guide For Everyday Living with Father Ryan Browning!

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#474 The Reality of Spiritual Warfare (#4); An Ignatius Guide For Everyday Living with Father Ryan Browning! · Claymore: Become Who You Are

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Become who you Are podcast, a production of the John Paul II Renewal Center.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: I'm Jack Riggert, your host, and, as always, I'm glad you're with me.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: I hope you're doing well.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Crazy times we're in, but we're in Lent and this is a time to remember that we are dust and to dust we shall return.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: You know, it's a time really to turn back to God, to connect with God, to detach from other things that are going on in our lives, so important.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: As you know, usually on Wednesdays Linda Piper and I are unpacking John Paul's theology of the body, Very, very powerful work, work that really becomes more important as time goes on, with all the sexual confusion we're in and the trans rights and queering of the culture and all these different things We've launched, touch with who we are, our meaning and purpose in life, why we're even created, male and female.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: So that work is so important.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: But John Paul also did something else.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: He also understood the human heart, he understood the culture and the times that we're in and he understood that these are very evil times.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: So what's the solution to all this?
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: I am, you are.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: St Augustine said.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: You know the God who created you without you will not save you without you.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: This is a universal call to holiness.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: This is very clear through Vatican II, john Paul II and the saints and the mystics throughout the ages.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: This is for our turn, the lady, to step up, bring the shining light into the church.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: And so this is why, at this time, I thought this is a good idea to bring St Ignatius back, reintroducing a series to Father Ryan Browning and I recorded during COVID on the discernment of spirits, a work by St Ignatius.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: It's a very important understanding for those of us who are really.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Our eyes have been opened by this the evil all around us right now.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Very important understanding for the sense of the battle that we're in right now.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: I believe many of us do sense that.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: And so what do you do with that right?
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Well, the discernment of spirits is a timeless practical teaching passed down to us from St Ignatius of Loyola that are so helpful in these evil times we find ourselves in.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: As we're trying to read our own hearts, as we sit in prayer, try to understand what's going on with our own hearts, it's a good time to sit there with God and then think about what's going on in your heart and then say what's going on in my heart and of course that affects our heads and our anxiousness and everything and see if those are good spirits and bad spirits and how to react.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: I really firmly believe that between now and the election, that things are going to get worse.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: And I say, you know it's amazing, because I started this podcast over four years ago because I sensed something was coming and I wanted to have a voice when that evil came.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Well, it was only a couple months after that that the COVID pandemic came, and I can feel this sense of foreboding almost as we get closer to the November election.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: So what can we do?
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Well, we can get deeper and deeper into prayer.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Cardinal Burke has got a novena going on.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Please join that.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: I put that in my last newsletter and it's going to be quite a journey and it's a time for all of us to really turn intensely again, with an intense focus on the crucified, our crucified and risen Lord, and to be able to spend more time in the sacraments and prayer and praying the rosary, reading scripture, and then going able to spend more time in the sacraments and prayer and praying the rosary, reading scripture and then going out and doing good things in the world.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: But when you do all that, the sense of evil is still around us, and so it's good to have a clarity of heart in this battle.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: And this is what St Ignatius of Loyola gives us some very practical rules.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: He calls them or ways that we can understand this battle.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: So buckle up and get ready for today's episode.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: I'm excited to be with you, pumped up, to be with a good friend, father Ryan Browning.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Father Ryan, as you remember, is the pastor of St Thomas More Parish in Elgin, illinois, and he moonlights as our spiritual director at the John Paul II Renewal Center.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: And this is episode four of Spiritual Warfare and Ignatius, discernment of Spirits with Father Ryan Browning.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Go back and listen to the other episodes.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: They build on each other and I think you're going to get a lot out of this.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Not that you can't jump in here and listen to this one too, but it might be good to get a little bit of a base, because we're going to jump right in.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Today we're going to be talking about consolation and desolation, and I'm a practical guy so I'm excited about today's episode.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: In reality, there's times where God feels close to me.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: The gospels come alive, marriage and family things go pretty easy.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: I'm getting up and I'm going to morning mass.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Prayer seems like it's just flowing, and then, man, the next day, other times, kind of my energy seems to be gone.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Prayer is a little drier.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: It's a chore to get up for morning mass.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: It's hard to feel really close to God for some reason.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: And you know to be patient with my wife, with my kids, you know to visit a sick friend.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: It's difficult and I don't know why sometimes right and prayer life can become start to slip.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: And so here I am in talking to Father about some of these things, and he starts to talk about spiritual warfare.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: And then St Ignatius of Loyola comes up with a teaching on exactly this type of experience we all go through.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: And just a reminder Father said this in the previous episodes there's nothing to be ashamed of.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: All the saints go through this.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: We're going to go through it, and that closeness to God St Ignatius calls consolation and these times of discouragement and struggle he calls desolation.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: So it's that battle.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: So I'm excited to have Father come on today.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: And just this last reminder that has been so helpful for me, just to remember that my small story of my life that I'm living out every day, is in the context of a larger story.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: It's a cosmic battle that's going on, and it has been almost since the beginning of time with original sin.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: And we're caught up in the midst of this battle, aren't we, father?
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: I'm going to bring Father Ryan Browning on a little bit now and really talk about consolation, talk about desolation and talk really from a practical standpoint.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: What should we do when we're in either one, father?
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: How are you Good to be with you, good to?
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: be with you, jack.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how did I do you know?
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: because I, you know, I'm listening to you, I'm listening to everything, and I thought, you know, man, I think this is coming together a little bit for me.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: So it's, you know, sometimes I think, father, we think about 14 rules and we think, oh my gosh, and really they're more like guidelines, aren't they?
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: Guidelines would be a great word for it.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: And they're really.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Once you hear them and maybe even just spend a little time reflecting on them and praying with them them, you see how practical they are and how they really speak to every person's heart, because everyone goes through these kind of steps, so to speak, in dealing with the spiritual life, and so they're very practical.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: And before you know it, you're actually living them and referring to them, without even knowing it sometimes, and just how you respond to different situations.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was so exciting, father, when you start to talk about these things, that I have a tool now in my toolbox.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: You know, before I would say I wake up with, you know, what I found out is desolation.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: You know, just kind of down in the dumps, lack of energy, a little despair going on, and I thought, well, I just got to work my way through this, you know, and I really didn't know why.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: And then you say, hey, be aware, number one.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Number two understand what's going on.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: You know what's going on in your life.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: You know, is it?
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: You know, anxiety about the coronavirus, and I might lose my job, exactly what's going on with this, and then to act on it.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Right, father, whether it's desolation or consolation and that's what I'm really excited to be talking to you about today too is this, you know, what is it exactly?
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: A little bit more, maybe you want to dig in there and what those feelings are like.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: And then what do we do when we're in consolation, or desolation too?
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, it's.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: That's basically St Ignatius kind of follows how we experience it.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: So yesterday or the other day, when we talked about the first two rules and then these two today about consolation and desolation, are really the foundation for what follows.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: So knowing and understanding these very well will provide the foundation for what is to follow, which basically what is to follow is what do we do in desolation and what do we do in times of consolation.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's awesome.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: The rest of the rules.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: So he gives us the very practical insights.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: I want to do so to understand.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Today we want to look at spiritual consolation, which is rule three, and then spiritual desolation, which is rule four.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: And it's important to note that there's that word spiritual before each of those, because there are non-spiritual consolations and non-spiritual desolations and we need to kind of know and distinguish between those so that we know that we're dealing with something here in the spiritual life and we'll kind of get into that as we go through those rules.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: But I guess if I was to synthesize for us the rule three on spiritual consolation, what is it?
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: To synthesize it?
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Spiritual consolation is the happy, uplifting movement of the heart that directly affects our life of faith and the pursuit of God's will, and so it's perceptible experience of God's love.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: So it's a very long passage that he gives on spiritual consolation, but that's to sum it up.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: So we can see in that, like that happy, uplifting movement of the heart.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: That's the word consolation, that's what that means, and then directly affects our life of faith and pursuit of God's will.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: That's the spiritual part.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: So anytime it has something to do with the life of faith or the pursuit of God's will, that's going to be spiritual in nature.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I can be down a little bit, In other words, a non-spiritual desolation.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Let's say, my back started to go out a little bit and so that's wearing on me a little bit.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Maybe again, maybe there really is something in my life that happened, you know a tragedy or something, and I'm going through that and so that would be a non-spiritual father.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Is that a non-spiritual or natural desolation that I could be feeling, and does that tie into the spiritual desolation at all?
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Well, what I would focus on first is like a consolation, so I'll give you an example of that okay as we move through rule three.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: That would be something like you're, say, you, you're on vacation and you went to the beach and you're standing there and there's the sunset happening on the beach.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: You're standing there with your loved ones, it's a beautiful evening and your heart is just uplifted and moved and that's a non-spiritual consolation.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Maybe it moves into a spiritual consolation.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: But in the moment it's like, yeah, this is just a beautiful place to be with people that I love, and good thing.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Then all of a sudden it might transform.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: If you're kind of steeped in your life of faith might transform.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: If you're kind of steeped in your life of faith, it probably will transform into a spiritual consolation because you'll thank God for this opportunity this moment.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: You'll experience his love in that.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: So they're very closely connected many times and we'll see that in desolation as well.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: But there are certain things that are just non-spiritual, in the beginning at least.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Like I'm hungry for a beautifully cooked filet, right, and I get a perfectly cooked filet because you're a chef and I just enjoy it, right.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Every bite of it is a little bit of happiness to my heart.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: That would be non-spiritual.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: And now, if we lift that up, if we lift that up in prayer, does that turn it into spiritual or no?
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very well can, yeah, and I'm thinking about your sunset, father.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: So I'm watching this beautiful sunset over the ocean, and beauty tends to bring you into the transcendence.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: So is that the bridge again that can take this non-spiritual consolation and bring it into a spiritual consolation?
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: So is that kind of what I'm looking at here?
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, specifically, that's kind of how it works.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: You know, like God's beauty, especially when you have reference to it, right, you're reminded of that God has just made everything.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Now, somebody who doesn't live a life of faith or something, they'll still have non-spiritual consolations in just the normal good things that God has given us pleasure in doing, you know, like eating a good steak or watching a sunset or being out on in the ocean or whatever it might be.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: That kind of makes your heart a little happy.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: It would be a non-spiritual gotcha, that helps a lot.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you yeah, that's good, ask questions anytime, for like it helps clarify these things as we move through it.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I love it, I love it and there's uh, and then spiritual consolation, specifically, uh, as we will, I'm going to kind of break out and break down what he goes through in that.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: And so he says, when the soul becomes inflamed with the love of its creator and lord.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: So have you ever had those moments in prayer where you're just like your, your heart, your soul kind of feels like warmth and love and light?
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: You know that those are moments of spiritual consolation.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, when you're in prayer, when the soul can love no other created thing on the face of the earth in itself, but only in the creator of them all.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: So in that he's talking about there, you recognize that there's no competition between God's creation and God himself.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Right, there's no, uh, no competition between the two.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: We see, for instance, that beautiful sunset all of a sudden draws us into the beauty of God himself, and it doesn't diminish from his creation and the beauty that I'm experiencing in it.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: But also there's no competition If this, if he has made this thing, this beautiful, and it moves my heart.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Imagine what beauty itself is like, you know, gazing upon God's face, and so that's a.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: There's no competition in it.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: We see it as all coming from God, and then he'll give you examples of what sometimes happens in spiritual consolation, like when a soul sheds tears that move to the love of its Lord.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Right, those times, sometimes, when you're praying or you're just overwhelmed by God's love, like it just wells up tears in your eye, tears of joy, right, not tears of sadness.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: But sometimes, though, that can be a consolation as well, when one experiences sorrow for their sins, because they realize how good God is and how my sins have taken me away from him, or that experience of him, and so in that moment, he can give us the gift of tears and sorrow for our sins.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: That's a consolation, actually.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: It may be a little bit sad in that we look back in that, but it's still.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: There's a lightness, a peace, a joy in our heart, because we realize that just means that just shows me how awesome his mercy is and how beautiful his mercy is.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm even thinking about that sunset again.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: You know, sometimes you don't want to leave it because it was so beautiful, and, on the other hand, so I feel a little sadness.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Or when you're done with that steak, father, you're almost sad that it's over with, right, because it was so good.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: But but in that emptiness then, or that little bit of sadness that I feel, walking away from the sunset or being done, you know, finished with that steak, I can still be lifted, right.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: So it's a little bit of a sadness, but it still reminds me of boy, this isn't, this isn't the, this isn't heaven.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Yet you know right, this isn't the, this isn't heaven yet you know, right, this isn't yeah exactly.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: You know I think I've heard it said before too like you see, uh, something like this sunset, and you know it's just momentary, like I don't, it's not gonna last, because that sun and the earth and the spinning and all the things, it's gonna be gone here in a moment when, in reality, what you want to do is just eat it up, you want to take it in, you want to.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: you want to be consumed by it?
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Yes, up, you want to take it in.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: You want to?
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: be consumed by it.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, cs Lewis talks a lot about that, yeah, which you know is interesting because this just popped into my head and so I'll share it.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: But like that beauty, we want to consume and in reality, right, jesus gives his, his life in the Eucharist to consume, like there's no greater beauty or truth or goodness than to receive Jesus in that way.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: But you know, those are definitely types of consolation and that's what's going on in spiritual consolation is you're moved in many ways to the Lord and to loving him, to being sorry for our sins.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Sometimes even, you know, we'll experience that when we're uh, praying with a passion of the Lord.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Uh, you'll see this throughout all of the saints, like they always had this great desire to spend time meditating upon our Lord's passion.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: You know, and I do that every year, getting close to that time where I'll watch the passion of Christ, right, because that movie really grasps what the Lord did for us, and when I watch it I am moved by it and many times it's a sadness at watching what he went through because of sin, but also there's a consolation in that of knowing his love for us.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead, father.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: I was just going to say in those ways, that's, that can happen when we're praying with the passion of the Lord.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say then.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: So, so what's the danger here?
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: Because you all, you said, whether it's a consolation or a desolation, that you're going to act right, that it's important to act, you know either.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: So, if I'm acting here, is it moving toward God, then, and understanding that?
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: And what's the danger here?
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: That I get knocked out of this?
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Because you had mentioned, yes, in the last episode that you know nothing, that Satan would love to come in here, the evil one would love to come in here and knock me off of my consolation, right?
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I mean there'll be a couple of rules coming up that will tell you how to handle spiritual consolation.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Don't let me confuse it.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: No, that's the beauty of these rules, is that you already started anticipating where he's going, so he's already thought these things out and so what you're okay.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: What you're wanting to know is that we're going to get to it okay, yeah, all right which just shows you how practical it is, because these are the questions that come up and they're the ones he's going to answer okay, that's awesome it's hard.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: It's hard to stay like with the one that we're dealing with, because we're like, okay, what do I do with that?
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: but you know all right, let's move.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Then, if you're ready, let's move to desolation.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: You got another one, yet.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Because I don't want to run out of time here before we get through that.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: So then he just mentions, like in consolation, every increase in faith, hope and charity.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: Right, so it's going to deepen those theological virtues in us.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: We're going to be attracted to heavenly things, to the salvation of our own soul, and there's a quieting and a giving of peace that we experience in consolation.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: So that's important.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: So we're moving toward the theological virtues, and is that what you said?
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Faith, hope and charity here, yeah, you're going to deepen those.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: When we're in consolation, those things can feel they'll be strengthened, so to speak.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: And so just to recognize that within spiritual desolation or spiritual consolation or spiritual desolation, these things are going to have a.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Things are going to vary in intensity, that is, sometimes it's very gentle and subtle, and sometimes it can be very strong and overwhelming.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: So in both consolation and desolation you can experience a varying intensity and then also a varying duration.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: So sometimes they can be very brief moments of consolation or very long moments of consolation or desolation.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: So just to know that there's a whole scale of this and the Lord is at work in all of that.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: So as we move with that in mind, we'll move into the fourth rule, which is all about spiritual desolation, and this is going to be what most of these rules will be about.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: About desolation.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what do I do in spiritual desolation?
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, because that's the most important right, it's easy.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: In spiritual consolation, you don't have to do anything, you just kind of dig it in, right.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: You accept it, you relish it.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Uh, so spiritual desolation, though, that's the one where we need the guidance and direction.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: And so, in spiritual desolation, he says uh, I call desolation all this contrary to the third rule, such as darkness of soul, disturbance in it, movement to low and earthly things, disquiet from various agitations and temptations, moving to a lack of confidence, without hope, without love, finding oneself totally slothful, tepid, sad, as if separated from our creator and Lord.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: For just as consolation is contrary to desolation, in the same way the thoughts that come from consolation are contrary to the thoughts that come from desolation.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: All right, so, and I bet, as you're listening to that rule or you read that rule, you can immediately experience like, oh, yeah, yeah, I've experienced that, yeah, I know that one right, right, because there's an experience of that, there's this darkness of soul, what I would call like a heaviness you feel, right.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: So I'll give you an example of one time, as I was getting better at responding to these different things.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: So I got up one day and I had a full day scheduled, a bunch of appointments and things going on, and I was looking at it and I was already a little bit overwhelmed before I even got started, and then someone reached out to me and said it's an emergency, I really need to talk to you and you know, and I'm like man, I don't have any time Like what am.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I going to do.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: So I got a bit agitated in my heart and in that moment I became aware.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, what's going on here?
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: I said, okay, Lord, that's not you, that's not how you want me to experience this.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: So I began to understand it a bit and I took action.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: I went into the chapel, I knelt down.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I said Lord, what do you want me to do?
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: This is your day.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: Let me do what you want me to do.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: And I just felt in my heart like okay, just give them the time that you have, which is like 25 minutes, and I'll take care of the rest of the day.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: It's like okay.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: So I texted the person and said, yeah, come over now.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: And I got about 25 minutes.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: So they're talking about the situation and I'm listening and all of a sudden, in the middle of listening, I don't know how else to describe it, but it felt like this wave of peace, just like like a giant wave, crashed over me and I mean, really it was so palpable, Like I think I jumped a bit and I was like Whoa, that was amazing.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: And then I learned from that, like the Lord's trying to teach me when you're starting to feel this heaviness, this heaviness of soul, of heart, like, come to me and I'll show you what to do.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: And then the rest of the day I had all of those appointments, but it was a day filled with joy and peace and it was almost what you would call easy to do all of that.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: All because you all, because you took that action, father yeah.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: Right, yes, because he was able to go ahead.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah For you, for normally what I would have done, uh, previously would I would set it and continue to get more agitated and probably then seek, you know, those uh comforts like oh, maybe I'll just have a few more cookies or whatever it may make me feel better.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: You know, you start looking for those things to kill that pain, when in reality what he wants us to do is bring it to him, and we'll learn these rules of how to respond in a little bit, but that was something that was very practical.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just that alone that example alone is a powerful example, right For all of us.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Just to remember that, just remember.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Well, so and how does anxiety?
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Anxiety, you know where you start to get really anxious in the heart, you know, and just feeling anxious for whatever you know.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: And so does that fall into this too.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: You know this anxiousness that so many people are feeling today.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: I know myself.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: You know you wake up some days, like this stupid coronavirus or whatever.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: There's so much noise out there.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: You just feel anxious.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: And I think you know when I pause and I just grab my rosary and it just happened to me yesterday again, you know, I just grabbed the rosary.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: You know I fall asleep sometimes praying the rosary and then I wake up in the middle of the night and I just start to keep going with it.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: And same thing, father, it reminded me what you said.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: All of a sudden, boom, that anxiousness, I forgot about it, and back to the rosary and boom, you know, maybe one decade later I fall asleep again.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know there are extreme anxiety that some people have and medication helps and stuff.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: But it's also going to be very helpful to have these spiritual rules, to kind of our guidelines to follow, because some some of it will be just kind of the normal stuff that a lot of people experience of.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: You know, the worry and as, as he puts it, I think, is what, how he says it is the disquiet from various agitations or temptations.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: There you go, this lack of confidence, this hopelessness.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: You know that can set in with the stuff going on, or my current circumstances and things, and in all of those we'll learn how to say okay, I need to act against this spiritual desolation.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Say okay, I need to act against this spiritual desolation Because what happens a lot of time most of our, most of what we do is we just sit in it, yeah, and we don't, we don't fight it.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Now we have a weapon.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Now we have a weapon because we're aware of what's going on.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a powerful.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: That's a powerful thing to have.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Now let me know if I'm getting ahead of myself and what will stop me.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: But you said in the last episode that basically the evil one doesn't have his own clay.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: But he likes to come into these situations.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: So I wake up, like you said, you get this call, your example, so you get this call and the evil one would love to get in there.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: I, you know, and is this is where he could come in.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Am I getting ahead of myself?
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Because he could take that, that, uh, non-spiritual desolation and turn it into a spiritual desolation, can he, if he wants to hear?
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: I always remember, you know he likes to weave into these anxiety problems.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: He loves to get in between this, my wife and I, when we're having some little argument, and turn it into a full blown.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: You know a close to a.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: You know I'm going to grab the pitchfork and come after you type of a situation right.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he'll.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: He's an equal opportunity harasser.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: He'll take any opportunity that he sees that he knows can be something that will drag you down.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so he could have got into that.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: That spot in my example, and normally probably would have, is like I mean, what, what do people want from me?
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: How can I?
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, I can't do everything I can't fix everything.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: You know, you start talking, you have those those talk, that self-talk that is actually kind of probably inspired by lies.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: You know and that's one of the things about spiritual desolation a couple of really good pointers that will help us remember what we're in it because, or become aware that we're in it.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: What it does, spiritual desolation claims power to interpret our spiritual past and predict our spiritual future.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: So when you get into desolation, you basically think everything in the past, even those consolations, that was all lies.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: That wasn't true, it was fake.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: A lot of people will experience this quickly within a conversion.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Right, they'll have a conversion period that things are going well, they love God, and then all of a sudden it's like, oh of, that was a big lie.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: That obviously wasn't true.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it tries to get you to interpret your spiritual past and then also predict the future.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Right, so it's always going to be this way.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: I'm, I'm just going to be in this darkness forever, like there's nothing, uh, nothing I can do, right, so that god's not around.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: And so just remember that when, when you're in spiritual desolation, it's like you've put on dark glasses and you can't see past or future, and so you need to recognize like it's going to try to get you to interpret the past and the future based on where you are right now, and that's a lie.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: I wonder, yeah, I wonder, how many people got divorced and I'm not looking for an answer here, father, but how many people got divorced because, you know, they let this spiritual desolation into their marriages?
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Or how many people fell away from the church just because they got blown around by the wind, like you said?
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: You know, you, the last episode.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: We have these tools now from St Ignatius that keep us now, or at least allow us, not just to get blown around or led around by our emotions and all of a sudden, boom.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: We have a tool now that we can stop those emotions.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: And I guess there's no answer, probably, to this, but there's probably been a lot of problems that could have been solved if we just stopped right and understood, were aware of what's going on, understood it and acted, like you said, upon it.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, because what spiritual desolation also does is it presents itself as our spiritual identity.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: All right, oh yeah, so it's now.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: What I am experiencing right now is who I am.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, that's a good point, that's a great point, yeah.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: We will all experience that it's like oh well, this is just who I am, I deserve this anyway, and I'm.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: You know all the lies.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: And that's always, yes, all the wounds.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Probably you know all the lies and that's always all the wounds.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Probably you know when, when, when, when you were abused as a kid or how.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: How about the labels the culture slaps on on on on us today?
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Right, I have this attraction or that attraction, and now it's not Jack that has an attraction, it's Jack.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: You are your attraction, right, you are your label.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Where your label and that's who you are, right.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: And yeah, then we become enslaved to this.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Right, it's starting to make sense to me, father Starting to make sense.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Now, the important thing to remember about spiritual desolation is that there's absolutely no shame in experiencing it, all right.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: So sometimes we'll think that's part of it, like well, I shouldn't be feeling this way, you know, and these type of things, and we'll feel shameful for experiencing spiritual desolation.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: But just recognize this is, this is normal, this is the normal work of the spiritual life.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Your spiritual life is going to be the ebb and flow between consolation and desolation.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Now, what these rules will ultimately do, by bringing them into your how you live your life, is going to even out those, uh swales.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: So, when you're in spiritual consolation, you're not going to get too high and be attached to it and want it all the time and that kind of and your spiritual desolation.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: You'll never go too low, the Lord, you begin to even out and you recognize this is just the normal ups and downs of the spiritual life.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: It sounds like I'm finding a little, a little peace in my heart, father.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: It sounds like a.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: It's a way to find some peace, huh.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, what Ignatius calls it is, it's setting captives free.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah yeah, yeah.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: So we can be captive to these movements instead of being free to interpret them and see what's going on and take action.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it's very good.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: That gets back to my kind of my little intro.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: There, father, is opening up the smaller story of my life, which are consolations and desolations.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Now, and opening those up to the larger story, being aware that I'm not just the only one in my office talking to you right now, that there's a cosmic battle going on and I happen to be sitting in the middle of a pretty big stage and I have my role to play in there.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: And I and it's a man, you know, it's a woman too, I would imagine, but as I can only speak as a man, as a man, I love to be able to act, you know, and to be able to say I understand, there's a battle, I'm part of the battle and and and I have some weapons now.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, and just a few more little points on what's going on with this is, sometimes God will allow this desolation because he's going to reveal an area of your life that he wants to heal.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: All right, so to recognize that this is not a complete removal of his light in our life, but sometimes he allows, and what desolation is is a focusing of his light on some specific spot in our life that he wants us to pay attention to and to begin to bring to him for healing.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: So God uses desolation as well, to wake us up sometimes to what he's wanting.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: You know I really, yeah, I love that, father.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: You know that's an important point.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: You know I remember reading Dan Burke's book and again, for those of you who don't remember from the other episodes that I will put a couple of books in the show notes along with a PDF that Father sent us on these rules.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: But anyways, one of the things, father, I remember in Dan Burke's book was that he took a piece of paper and he folded it long ways in half and he wrote that whatever was bothering him.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: He wanted to see it on paper and that's why I bet you, that's why he did it from what you just said, because I don't want to just move past it or cover it up, I want to see it on paper.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: And that's why I bet you, that's why he did it from what you just said, because I don't want to just move past it or cover it up, I want to see it.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: See, that's a big deal for me because I can write it down now.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: And then he was picking out some scripture and some things that Christ said, and even some of the sayings from the Old Testament, and he put them next to them in the Psalms that you gave us last time, and he was reading those and it was really beautiful, as I did that there was something that came up when he was a kid.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: You are a piece of something.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: It was actually stuck in his mind.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Somebody, I think it was his mother or father, called him a piece of you know what and that stayed in his head and as he got older it came up and was he was feeling this desolation wrote it on a piece of paper, realized it was from years ago and then started to write scripture down.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: And you know things about you know god's uh, he's a beloved child of god and he and god is there for him.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: And he said in that moment I started to feel some peace.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: He said it was a battle.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: It didn't go away totally right away.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: I had to work on that for a while.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I think he said but that's a great point, father.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: I really like that because my thought was, hey, if I'm in desolation I just got to get out of it right away.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: But no, I need to be aware, I need to understand what's going on and uh, and just think you know, and and and allow the light to shine on there.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Take off those dark glasses, if I can, and allow the light to shine.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and trust that it will.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like a winter around here in Chicago, right, you can go a week without the sun, ever seeing the sun, but that doesn't mean the sun doesn't exist.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: It just means the clouds are blocking us from seeing it.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Right, and that's a similar thing whenever we're in spiritual desolation.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: God hasn't abandoned you.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: He still exists.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: He's there.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: There's just these clouds that I need to deal with with his help.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: And that's what the fifth rule moves into is what do I do in a time of spiritual desolation?
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Because that's the most important thing how do I act in this and navigate it with the Lord's help, because he's obviously at work here.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: And that's always the key to remember, because what we want to remember is, or what we want to think in the midst of that is God has abandoned me.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: I'm terrible.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, these things come immediately and I don't care how long you've been doing this, like it is still happened occasionally, where you end up, you're in spiritual desolation and before you've actually kind of become aware of it, you're like ah, I guess you know what did I do?
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Did I do something wrong, punishing me?
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: You know like, oh, yeah, I remember reading the saints.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: You know the, the, the mystics, and, and you know, saint Teresa of Avila, saint Catherine, saint Faustina.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: They all talked about this to the day they died.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: I think they were still battling.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Padre Pio was battling with, with the stuff at the end, you know, um.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: So here here's the story, father.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: We've got about five minutes, four or five minutes left, so.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: So how do you want to, if you want to wrap your end up a little bit and also give us just a little taste?
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: You started with what we're going to get into in the next episode, which is number five, but maybe you want to put a bow on this before you do that.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so just to remember that there is non-spiritual consolation and desolation and spiritual consolation and desolation.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: And it's important to recognize the difference, because spiritual is always going to have some effect on your life of faith and on pursuit of God's will in your life and how they can interplay God's will in your life.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: And how they can interplay, you know, non-spiritual consolation and desolation can lead to the spiritual components of that.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: And so then, to start paying attention to the movements of your heart, because this is the key, to pay attention.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: When you're in consolation like oh okay, this is consolation, write down what you're experiencing.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: You know, keep a little journal or a little notepad next to your prayer place and write it down.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: And when you're in spiritual desolation, like you mentioned, you know, write those things down that are coming up in spiritual desolation and you know, kind of bring it to prayer or even carry the little notebook with you, because a of times spiritual desolation will be anytime pop into your life and then, just for a little precursor to our next one where we'll dig into what to do in spiritual desolation, because that's the most difficult.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: The first thing that he tells us about combating spiritual desolation is you never make a change of your spiritual practices.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: When you're in desolation, all right.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Never make a change in your spiritual practices on decisions that you have made while in a normal or consolation period, because that's what you want to do in desolation.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: It's like I'm not going to go pray today because I don't feel like it.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: That's the first thing you want to do, and the same is kind of true with just regular life.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Well, the stock market has been all over the place recently, but a lot of people will buy high and sell low, and it's you.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: You should do the opposite, but when the stock market starts dropping, most people want to run for the hills.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Like this is a.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: This is a similar thing.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: So when we're in spiritual desolation, it's like this why are you looking at me like that, father?
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: you know, don't you?
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: You know me, you know me well I did, I did used to do that, so I so.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: I've been watching it and it's like, oh boy, but that would be the normal times, like you want to run to the hills and stop everything that you had already decided when you were in a time of consolation.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: So that's going to be.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: The first rule we'll go into is don't make a change in your spiritual journey.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: You continue to take that time of prayer.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: You go to Mass, whatever it is that you normally do.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's awesome.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: That's awesome.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: And, father, can you leave us with a prayer please?
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Sure In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: Heavenly Father, I ask you to pour your Holy Spirit upon all those who listen to this podcast, that they may become more aware of the spiritual movements of their heart, of the way that you use those spiritual consolation and desolation to draw them ever closer to you, to continue to draw them into a deeper relationship with you.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: And may you pour out your blessing on everyone, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: Amen, amen.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Father.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: Just a reminder to everybody please remember to subscribe to the station, write a review if you have time and, just like everybody else, our donations are down a little bit.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Wasn't able to do all the functions that I would normally be doing during Lent, so if you're still working and if your heart moves, please keep us in mind for a financial donation.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Hey, God bless everybody.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us and we'll see you again soon.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: Bye-bye.