Latest / The Long Burn / Episode 17 - Intentions, Motivations, and Lemons

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Episode 17 - Intentions, Motivations, and Lemons · The Long Burn

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hello.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us again today on the Long Burn.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is Joel Mallon, mental health therapist in Jacksonville, Florida, along with Dr.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Jonathan Wade in Nashville, Georgia.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, Jonathan.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Joel.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is unique.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't plan this out, it just kind of happened this way.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, welcome back, guys.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh this is uh another episode of the Long Burn.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you're still here listening, that means you're not sick of us yet.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so that's a good thing.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna keep trying and keep doing what we do, you know, for the the thousands of people who are listening to us out there in the ether of the world and the internet.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think they're all imaginary and made up, but that's fine.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: We'll keep talking to you guys anyway.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're either coming back for more or they can't figure out how to get this out of their inbox.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what it is.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: It just keeps popping up on their podcast uh app, and they're just like, man, what how'd you delete this off of here?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, fair enough.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Technology's hard, you know.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: You just keep getting sent, it's like the algorithm on Facebook.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you mentioned something about butter, and the next thing you know, there's 16 different ads about a different butter on there.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, oh yeah, I can't believe it's not butter either.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'd not even think about butter that much.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, anywho, um, so topic for today, we're gonna talk about actions, intentions, and motivations.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, I already kind of forewarned Jonathan that this one I'm probably gonna be doing the majority of the talking because we wanted to take a mental health spin and kind of figuring out how do we assess um kind of our own behaviors and the behaviors of other people.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because something that that I've learned over my course as a therapist is that we react far more to our emotions and assumptions than we do to factual information in any given situation.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, for um for those of you that listen last week, you know, we had Brian Harrell on that talked um about the printing industry there in Cook County um in South Georgia.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it just makes you wonder like, why did you start this business?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: For anybody that has a business or a product or a service or something like that, like why did they get started?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because if your focus is like, and I've had I've had clients who just say, Well, I want to own my own business one day.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, doing what?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you have, you know, that people want to buy or what service do you have to offer?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then even the younger generation, uh, when I was working with kids a few years back, you ask them, hey, what do you want to do when you grow up?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: You used to be firefighter or it used to be astronaut or police officer, something like that.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now kids are saying, I want to be a YouTuber.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, for what?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you have to offer?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: What wisdom, what knowledge, what information do you have to offer that makes people even want to watch what you do?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that a lot of times, you know, if we don't have a solid why behind what we do, you know, we do lose that motivation, we do lose vision of what we wanted it to become eventually.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and also do we have something positive to offer?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because I don't know anything about playing violin.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if I said, Jonathan, I'm gonna start a business teaching violin lessons.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh hopefully, as a good friend, he's gonna say, bro, that's a dumb plan.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, don't do that.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, but I want to.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's fine.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, nobody's gonna come to me for information on something I don't know anything about.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to give a quick overview about um kind of the core of psychology and the way most therapists have their uh presentation and how they they work with clients.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so the core of um not all, but most therapy uh from my experience is cognitive behavior therapy.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the way I like to kind of explain cognitive behavior therapy is it's thinking about how you think.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how did you come to this conclusion?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: How did you um come develop this emotional response to this situation?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what's the skin in the game that you have here that's clouding your judgment or something like that?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, cognitive behavior therapy has four simple premises that it operates off of is that everyone in the world has a set of core beliefs.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: So these core beliefs are derived from a lot of different places.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: It could be from our family of origin, it could be from our faith background, it could be from our race or our demographic, something like that.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we are building these assumptions about ourselves and about the world based on all of our experiences.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it essentially creates a filter of a certain type.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so these core beliefs you could also consider as assumptions.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you had the core belief of the world is a happy place.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, I know a lot of unhappy people.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be potentially an assumption about the world.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's not something that's factually correct, but it's something that if you choose to believe that the world is happy place, then what happens when you get hit with an unhappy circumstance?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, what it does is it challenges the core belief.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it possibly uh causes us to doubt the way that we assume everything.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then that that core those core beliefs go into our worldview of our assumptions about self, others, the world, our what we're our purposes in here.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so those core beliefs come from all over the place.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Our core beliefs are what fuel our thoughts about any specific event.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like you have a core, let's say you have a core belief in a relationship that my spouse will not cheat on me.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then, you know, could that happen?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: You don't control the other person.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: So then now all of a sudden relationships are unsafe as your new thought, your new core belief and your new thought.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: So then, based on those core beliefs and thoughts, we have we have subsequent emotions of a way that we feel about a certain outcome.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so then those uh core beliefs, those thoughts and those emotions create behaviors.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes they're positive behaviors, sometimes they're negative or hurtful behaviors, but those behaviors are always fueled by a thought and an emotion.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, have you ever had Jonathan?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever had something happen that it felt felt like you just reacted?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was just automatic.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: All the time.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like whenever you, you know, reach for a steak and eat it raw out of the fridge.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's what he likes to do on Friday nights.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just making that up.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so but basically every behavior that we have, whether we acknowledge it or not, there is an emotion or there is a thought that precedes that.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how how quickly do you think that this happens?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, probably pretty quick.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're talking about milliseconds.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Milliseconds, yeah, yeah.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: That that by the time like there is a subsequent thought, so if like a bear busts through the door, there is a thought of I'm in danger, there is an emotion of fear, and there's a behavior of running, you know, like the Dickens, right?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: In Florida, in Jacksonville, I usually give people the example of the alligator.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's more fitting here for Florida of running from an alligator.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: But that there is a thought and emotion that occurs within milliseconds before you actually have an action or behavior.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, here's a problem with this.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: So if I asked you, like, what's something that you did today?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Something random, Jonathan.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Put you on the spot.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know what you did today.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I did.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay, why did you go to work today?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh to see patience.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: To see patience?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the motivation?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh to make a living.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: To make a living, to support your family, yeah.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, to better the world, yeah, to be a part of improving public health.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot of different whys behind there.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say that foremost, the reason we don't just not show up to work is, you know, our intention is to be to have good character, to be dependable, um, and and by doing such, we do continue to get a paycheck.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's thoughts and emotions behind why you did that.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's times when we don't really want to go to work and we have to, you we have to override the emotion that we feel of apathy, laziness, being tired, different things like that.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: So stay with me.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: I know this is getting long.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: The question is what happens when you make a decision or have a behavior that Candace, that's Jonathan's wife, that um that Candace doesn't like.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Was your intention necessarily to hurt her, harm her, or piss her off?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: 90% of the time, right?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Generally.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Generally.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say the majority of us, we do not have malicious intent whenever we do something that hurts, harms, or disappoints somebody else.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: But there is the assumption of malicious intent when things don't go our way.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: We assume that people are out to get us, we take it personally and stuff like that.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: So here's the problem.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we talked about our core beliefs, we talked about our thoughts, our emotions, and our behaviors.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you have reason for everything that you choose, correct, Jonathan?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're not just animals, we don't just operate on instinct most of the time.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so but that means there is an intention or a motivation behind every observable behavior that you have.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: So let's let's use the analogy of a tree.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: So if we're thinking about those core beliefs, thoughts, emotions, and behaviors, and we're thinking about a tree, what would you say the roots represent, Jonathan?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: The foundation, maybe.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, what's the foundation of the tree is the roots?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: What's the foundation of the cognitive behavior therapy model?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: See if you're paying attention to the thing.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like that the motivation.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's the core beliefs.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: It all starts with the core beliefs.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's the very root, the very bottom of our assumptions or our thoughts about the world around us.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: So the roots stretch up into the trunk of the tree.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, which aspect do you think of cognitive behavior therapy is the trunk?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is that our motivation?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's nope.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: I gave you four.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's a multiple choice, man.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, don't go off book here.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: So our core beliefs is what creates our thoughts about whatever we encounter.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that's it represented by the trunk of the tree.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so, from our thoughts, you know, this is where I'm gonna try you again.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: What's the next one?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Do you even listen?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're not even listening.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're not even on this podcast right now.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: With motivation.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: So those thoughts generate emotions.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: So the branches, if you think about it, a thought can branch out into a bunch of different emotions about a situation.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so then the final aspect of the tree, the tree example, is the the leaves or the fruit of the tree.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is the behaviors.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: These are the actions that we see other people having every day.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I said, every action that somebody has, you know, there is a motivation, there is an intent behind that, there's a why essentially.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I judge myself based on my intentions and my motivations because I know what those are.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: They're all in my head.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I know that I'm trying to do something kind, but that doesn't mean that, like if you if a child is running around grabbing things around the house, like like a toddler or something like that, and he grabs a knife.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Are you gonna let him keep the knife?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is the child happy about that?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, not at all.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, and so did you do anything wrong?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: In the child's eye, yes, but not in yes, not in reality.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Not in reality.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: So the child is is reacting to your behavior of you took something from me.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: They don't understand your intentions of safety, they don't understand your motivations out of love and things like that.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: They just observe the behavior and they don't like it.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we make the mistake a lot of times of thinking that, well, you did this and and you were wrong.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now, just because somebody doesn't like something that I did, does that meant does that mean that my action or behavior was wrong?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's their perception of it, I guess.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm taking a knife from a child because a child is not responsible with a sharp object and could hurt itself, but the child still doesn't like the behavior.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: So let's go back to our tree analogy.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever people see you going around like um, you know, doing your, you know, making your decisions, you know, doing life and everything else, that's your fruit essentially.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, they see the fruit or the outcome of your thoughts, your intentions, your core beliefs, your worldview, all those things we just discussed.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll give you a question here if we're talking about fruit.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: What does the leaf of a lemon tree look like?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's green.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Very perceptive there.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of details.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Any more adjectives?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's waxy.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Waxy.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know what a lemon leaf looks like.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know why?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, because we don't pay attention to it.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: We don't care about the lemon leaf.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: We care about the lemon.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So now describe a lemon to me.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's yellow and round and sour and juicy.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's still waxy.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's still waxy.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Still waxy.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we can give far more detail on the fruit of a tree than we could describe the tree itself or the leaf of the tree or anything like that.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And even though I do woodworking, I suck at telling you, oh, that's a sweet gum tree.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, I don't freaking know.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you cut it open and I see the wood grain, I'm like, oh, look at that grain.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's definitely a gum tree, you know, or cherry tree or whatever it is.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the problem is that we're much the same way in the way that we evaluate other people, that we are only assessing them by the fruit or the observable actions or behavior that they have.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Where, but while meanwhile, we are assessing ourselves based on what I was attempting to do or what I was trying to do that was positive or good.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't mean that other people like it.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so the question is, is how do you manage this understanding or this perceptive perception perception from a leadership perspective, heck, from a parenting perspective, from a business owner perspective?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, can you think of any decisions you've made uh business-wise or even family-wise, that maybe you had to further explain your intentions or motivations to get buy-in?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I mean, all the time.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: It reminds me of of when Candace and I uh somebody says something and there is that reaction because we see that fruit and we have to go, you know, it was the delivery.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: It may not have been that intent, that internal driver as to why you said it or or why you have that opinion, but it was the the way that you expressed it is what drew the negative reaction in the in the other person.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that happens from a parenting perspective, a work person, you name dinner perspective, you know.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's the the feedback a lot of people give.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not what you said, how you say it.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's how you said it, you know?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so if we're reacting to these assumptions that we're looking, we're observing a fruit, and we're coming up to these conclusions or these assumptions, well, these assumptions are based on what information?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: I guess how we feel internally.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: My information.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So my assumptions or my information about somebody else's action is gonna be incorrect the majority of the time.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Unless you've got like, you know, you're clairvoyant or telekinetic or something like that, telepathic.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I do not know what other people are thinking, but I continually react thinking or believing that I know what they're thinking, and usually it's incorrect.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is how we get into our easy arguments, you know, like from a business standpoint, you know, if you let's say all the employees say, you know, Jonathan, I want to raise.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: What is the financial implication of you if you're like, you want to raise?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, here you go, here's a raise.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, yeah, you you think what what is their motivation behind it, or what have they do I perceive that they deserve a raise versus their perception of what they do?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: And could that threaten the financial stability of the business?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but but they're not considering those things because those are aspects that they don't manage, that they don't know, that there's budgets and bottom line that they don't have to think about.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: They just think I asked for a raise and he's a crappy boss and he wouldn't give it to me.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so we do this every day.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: This happens not only at work, this happens with our family.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: This happens, you know, with every human interaction that we have.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: We believe that we are good judges of character, but we're assessing somebody else's fruit by our own guidelines.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So let's go back to our crazy lemon.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's a crazy lemon, let me tell you.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Crazy lemon.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Wild lemon, the wild lemon.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, like instead, let's say that what you're doing, you're like, I'm doing a good job.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm managing a business, I'm trying to manage my family, and then somebody else comes along and says, Well, Jonathan, you suck at it.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Your fruit's no good.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what does someone do?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Or what I'm I don't I don't really buy into that.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: What do you say?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you're a lemon tree and you're proud of the lemons that you've made.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody I would overreact.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Years ago, I would uh lose my crap and you know, no, I'm not, and and and get defensive or or protective or or you know, kind of uh flaunt my feathers of what look how we are doing good.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: So does a banana tree get to tell a lemon tree that it's no good?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, because it doesn't know what how to make lemons.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, bro, you don't even make lemons.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, we're both yellow.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: We're that that's about where it ends, pretty much.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but that's what happens all the time is that instead of asking someone like, hey Jonathan, do you mind explaining to me like why this happened?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like what was your thought process behind how you came to this conclusion or or what you did here?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: We don't do that.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: We treat our assumption as fact, and then we demonize the other person without even understanding the nature of why they made that decision.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Can you see how this causes conflict?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I that that little bit of clarification is is what fills that gap to prevent the fight, the blow up, the whatever.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: But how much easy is it just to act on my assumptions?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I think that's what we do all the time in this country, as opposed to try to figure out what walk in the other person's shoes or get their perspective of it.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we just feel attacked.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a big term for this.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's called emotional reasoning.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's treating a feeling as a fact.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: It is treating my assumptions or what I feel about a situation as a factual event.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I try to uh to demonstrate this when I'm working with clients um of how emotional reasoning works.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes, you know, we we do group therapy and we have multiple different clients that are in the group and stuff like that.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um I do this cautiously because you know I don't want to be offensive, but I also want to illustrate a point.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'll find a um I'll find a client from another ethnicity, a different color skin or something like that.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll say, okay, be patient with me.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Please listen, don't react.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to try something, and I'll say, if I say you people wouldn't understand, what does that mean?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so everybody in the room kind of gets tense and they look at the person, they're like, oh boy, this is about to blow up, you know?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so then, of course, everybody's like trying to figure out, okay, what's going on here?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I do is I say, I could mean males, I could mean females, I could mean African Americans, I could mean Hispanics, I could mean Navy service members, I could mean people with families, I could mean someone who's a homeowner, someone who likes fast cars.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: I could mean anything, but my vague communication can be misconstrued as offense.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so what happens in our society is that people develop offense based on their assumptions without trying to clarify um what was actually meant during that interaction.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason being is we think it's quicker.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: We don't take the time to get to know somebody, to understand their motivations.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: We don't take the time to learn someone's character or their intentions.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we just use our blanket assumptions in this situation.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, I I often hear the what we we don't listen to hear, we listen to respond.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess is that kind of goes hand in hand with that, that we're ready to to pull the trigger as opposed to maybe try to understand what is being said or why it's being said.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: So so now I want to take this and flip this into how this relates to um success, family business, all this other stuff.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you have a when you have a family, and let's say that you have to work long hours to make the business work, how do you rationalize that or explain that behavior to your spouse?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I would imagine that you've had this conversation before, so I'm interested to see if you've got any feedback on that.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, it it's taking that approach of trying to provide, it's taking that approach of of building something and putting in hard work now so that we don't have to work as hard later.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm a very big advocate of you pick your hard, it's either now or later.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh, you know, so I I'm sure we've had those exact conversations in in the past about business and life and work.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that that principle is delayed gratification.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you the the whole idea um of retiring early and things like that, yeah, you got to work a lot harder on the front end if you want to speed up the timeline on these things.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the problem is that, you know, as a partner in a family or in a business, are your goals aligned?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so let's say you've got a husband that wants to work 80 hours a week to retire early, but the wife's like, hey, I really want you here to spend this time with the family.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we heard Brian last week talking about that trade-off of him saying, you know, I wish I had some of that time back.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean he made a conscious sacrifice, but now he's got a business that gives him a wealth of knowledge, right?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: So much.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, but the his financial, I would I would assume that his financial stability for his family is far greater now than it was before.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so why do we need that?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's safety.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Finances can't buy you happiness, but it can buy comfort, it can ensure safety and different things like that.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's absolutely a trade-off.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you aren't able to clearly explain those intentions and those motivations to your partner and hopefully both on board with that attempt, there's gonna be a constant miscommunication.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be an assumption you don't want to spend time with your family, you don't love me, you don't want to be with me, and we're too impatient to sit down and spend the necessary time to explain the the need behind that.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And this goes with the workforce too.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, do do you owe your employees an explanation on everything?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, not necessarily.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: However, if you take the time to explain the things you know they don't understand, could you create more respect, mutual respect back and forth?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I mean I I think there's a time and place for everything.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: We we try to layer it uh with decisions, business decisions or whatnot, to where it's it's uh made at the top of the pyramid and then as we roll it out, we try to let people we try to be transparent with employees, we try to be transparent with patients.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but to an extent.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Do they need to know the exact ins and outs?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: No, but but I think it is important that they have an idea of where this ship is going.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where you get that buy-in aspect.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's where you get people who catch the culture, as you mentioned in the last episode, or the vision of what you're trying to do in the big picture.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of people do not see the minute details.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: They don't see the barriers, they don't see the hardships.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh to me, that's a luxury, you know, it's like you get to work here and enjoy all this, you know, um, without seeing the pain that's happened, you know, just like the last thing we said with Brian is, oh, you got lucky.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like, no, it's not a luck thing.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a hard work thing, it's a consistency thing, it's a commitment thing, it's a character thing.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: And all those, if you can explain that intention and that motivation along the way, hopefully you keep yourself surrounded by the people who understand it and are passionate to accomplish the same thing you're accomplishing.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think there's anything uh better from a business owner perspective than than to you know look around at employees and and understand that they get it.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: They they want to achieve the same goals that I do.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and they they want to be a part of that journey, they want to be a part of of that process, the good, the bad, the ugly.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've we've had folks that have been around with us since you know uh late 2019, and they've they've seen the good and they've been through the the bad of the ballasta we've talked about and and and kind of seen how we've pulled ourselves out of that and where we are are today in the future of of where we're going.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think if they weren't bought in and if they weren't let in to that information, then then right, they wouldn't have that uh that desire, that motivation to to be a part of it and and contribute to it.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the the basic gist of this is slow down that our snap assumptions or or evaluations of circumstances are most often incorrect because we're reacting to our information, not actual information that's being given to us.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we want to know, just like you know, writing a um a research paper or something like that, you have to give factual citated uh citations in order to support the conclusion that you've come to.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we are more lazy with our communication, our interaction.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're wanting to create buy-in in your family, in your business, you know, spend the time to explain the motivation of try to explain to people, even if something did turn out badly, you can maybe then explain, well, my intention was to try to accomplish this, it just didn't quite turn out that way.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that creates so much trust, it creates buy-in.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: People want to feel like they are a part of the progress that's happening.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: But if they just feel like a cog in the wheel, more than likely they'll find a place where they can find more sense of purpose.
• 25:06
  unknown: Yeah.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, I think we both discussed, we were gonna keep it a little bit shorter this week.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: I know our last episode went a little bit long, and I realized I did all of pretty much all the talking here and I put you on the spot a few times, Jonathan.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think there is so much psychology behind how do you make this stuff work?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: How do you make it sustainable?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: How do you make it manageable?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we've got to be willing to do that work um from the top down, you know, starting with how our thoughts uh create actions and behaviors.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we're not willing to look in the mirror ourselves, you know, we're blind to our own issues, we're blind to our own mistakes, even though they're glaringly obvious to everyone around us who cares about us.
• 25:43
  unknown: Yeah.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and I I think you hit it from the get-go.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it starts with why.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Brian mentioned that, Tim mentioned that, Rod mentioned that.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's had a why.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: We've got a why, you you had it from a woodworking perspective, you have it from a counseling perspective.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've got it from from the the ventures that we're on.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you know, I thought it was interesting when you asked Brian last week that, you know, was there there ever that moment, that moment that you were thought about giving up or or or shutting things down?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he said no.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he was bought in the side.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he he that his why was solid.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I I think that's that's fantastic.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think that's when you're on the right path.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's when you, you know, it's it's a passion project.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's probably why it was difficult for him to to give some things up.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think we could all hope to find that level of of intensity in our why, not just a why, but a why um uh in our life, in our business, in our passion, our goals, whether that be at work, at home, in relationships or whatnot.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that reminds me of a long time ago.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know this, but my undergraduate degree is in vocal music performance and you know, play several different instruments.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: My goal years ago um was to work at a church and be um a music leader and uh worship pastor type stuff.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I was moving that direction that that's what I thought that I wanted, um, had prayed about it and was just talking to other people to get their feedback.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a um a friend who his brother was a church pastor, and I told him what I was trying to do and what I was trying to accomplish.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And he told me, he said, you know, he said, you know, if you feel like this is what you want to do, awesome.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: He said, but if you feel like you could be happy doing anything else, he said, go and do that.
• 27:30
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that that didn't seem like I was wanting that that blanket, oh yeah, go for it, man.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and so I was really shocked that he was like, no, literally, if there's anything else that you would rather be doing instead, pursue that.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think that that's good information.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: That if you're stuck, you've created a rut for yourself, you know, and you're at a place where you're like, either I fully commit to this or I get out.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you could be happy doing anything else, you know, count the cost before you start.
• 27:58
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't know too many people.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, go ahead.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, or even if you're halfway down that road.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that that sunk cost bias, like it's okay to to put it down and pivot and change directions and not keep going because I've put six months, six years, a thousand dollars into this venture.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's okay to say no and stop.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and a dumb analogy I like to give is like, you know, people lose a relationship and they're like, oh man, it sucks.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like I lost this great person, and and you know, we had some issues and it fell apart.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, would you rather know that in six months or find out after six years?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like we we see failed relationships as lost opportunity, but sometimes it's actually dodging a bullet.
• 28:38
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so cutting your losses and pivoting, or you know, finding something else that brings joy and happiness, you know, even though it's hard and there's pain associated with all those changes, you know, it can still be for the better overall.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 28:52
  unknown: Good deal.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's it.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's my huge monologue for today.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: No, I thought that was good.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that that sits well.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think that has uh a lot of uh context across so many parts of life, you know, and I think we don't slow down to to think about other people or maybe uh why things are said or done.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think there's any sort of foundation of insecurity in that?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so we all have an inner monologue and an inner critic.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got the voice of ourself talking to ourselves that we've been listening to since the day we were born.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so even though we evaluate and question everything and everyone says around us all the time, that voice in our head only speaks truth in our mind.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, that problem right there is that we trust our instincts far too much.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and that's that's what I was alluding to when I say, you know, five years ago, I probably would have flipped out if if somebody said that, you know, I I didn't make good lemons or the practice was whatever.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: But but I think, you know, nowadays from a maturity standpoint, a lack of insecurity standpoint, I I know what we've achieved, I know what we've done, I know where we're headed.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and nobody's gonna take that away from me.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: But also I tell the folks around here we're our own worst enemy.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as as different businesses pop up, as similar practices pop up around South Georgia, they want to jump to comparisons and conclusions and different things.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I say, guys, like let's just stick with what we're doing.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: What we're doing's working.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's worked for eight years, it's gonna keep working.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: We take care of people, good things happen.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and I think that's a level of maturity I didn't have five, six, seven years ago.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Don't let anybody tell you your lemons are bad.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: I got good lemons.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you ready for the closer on this one?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, Jonathan, when life hands you lemons, look at the leaves.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Look at you make that lemonade.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: You're making the lemonade out of leaves, man.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's right, but you have to look at the leaves in case someone asks you what a lemonade is.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: In case someone quizzes you on the need to be prepared.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, that was fun for me.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: So sorry guys.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: You had to do that.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think that's really good.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the mental health moment for today on The Long Burn.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Jonathan, any other closing remarks from you?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, I can't wait till next week.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're on a roll.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: We got lots of good things and more guests coming up.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Good folks.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: We'll keep watching, keep reaching out.
• 31:17
  unknown: Yeah.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: An additional listener every week.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you know, you know, uh, check us out online, follow us on uh social media through Fire Health.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, check that out.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: If you like what you've been hearing over the past 17 episodes or so, uh, we're we're getting close to to launching a practice uh really specialized in in uh direct primary care from a telehealth virtual perspective and some some life and business coaching uh really for our listeners here, you know, kind of kind of taking this information and and really folding it into what you have going on in life so that you know as you're chasing the the wealth dream, we can keep that health dream going for you and your family and you can show up um and and not not lose that foundation uh while you're building your building your future.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: So our hook for that is if you're not sick of listening to us on the podcast and you want more, that's right.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: You can set up some phone calls.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: We can make it happen.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: So all right.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's it for me, Jonathan.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, have a wonderful rest of your day, sir.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: You too, and a good week.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, love you guys.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.