Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / The World is Saying 'Enough'

Transcript

The World is Saying 'Enough' · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: The world is saying enough, big tech is under fire.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: That's today's podcast. We're doing a mash up of this
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Week in Parenting and The Doctor's Desk, which somewhat excites
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Kylie because the Doctor's Desk is not normally her favorite. Hello,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Welcome to The Happy Family's podcast. Right after the break,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: we're going to be highlighting how big tech companies are
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: being taken to court by so many people over in
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the US and what that could possibly mean in terms
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: of how our families function and how our children thrive. Then,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: the line in the sand that's been drawn by Australia
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: seems to be becoming extended by other nations. We'll talk
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: about what has happened as the world has watched Australia's
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: minimum age social media legislation. That and a whole lot
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: more in today's podcast. Stay with us. Hello, and welcome
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: to The Happy Family's podcast, where you get real parenting
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: solutions every single day. This is Australia's most downloaded parenting
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: podcast where Justin and Kylie Colson were the parents of
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: six kids on the author of a bunch of books,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I've Got a TV show and the most download podcast
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: here in oz Hey Kylie, I feel as though we
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: do a lot of podcasts related to screens. Feels to
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: me as though parenting is really about screens. In twenty
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: twenty six, we're not really talking about parenting as much
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: as how do we deal with kids? Because screens have
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: taken over.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: That's definitely our experience.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Give a child a screen and watch their relationship with
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: you and everything else in the world completely change. It
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: becomes the center of the universe. Today, We're going to
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: move through a fair bit of material and do it
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: fairly quickly. Kylie, I'd like you to guide it if
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: you can. We've got some lawsuits happening in the US
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: where the big tech companies a run to fire, and
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: we've got countries right around the world who've been watching
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: what we're doing and deciding that looks all right, Maybe
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: we should do that too.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: Mata, the parent company at Facebook and Instagram and Alphabet's YouTube,
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: are defending themselves in a landmark civil suit that accuses
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: them of purpose designing their products to cause addiction in children.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious, what are these lawsuits about.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, So in the United States right now, quite a
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: wave of lawsuits are going to be rolling out throughout
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: the year. The first one just started in the last
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: couple of weeks. Essentially, you've got a whole bunch of people,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: some states, also some school districts who are accusing social media,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: big tech platforms of causing addiction in teenagers. So these
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: are test cases, and they're basically trying to prove that.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: When you say test case, what do you mean?
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: So test cases? Essentially, there hasn't been any previous lawsuits
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: around this, there's no precedent, so they're trying to find
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: something where they think we could potentially win this and
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: this can set the precedent for future law cases, future trials,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: future suing opportunities, future civil actions, all those kinds of things.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: If these go through like this will totally turn the
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: world upside down in so many ways.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Potentially, I hope so. But they have got a fight
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: on their hands, not just because the big tech companies
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: can afford the most expensive lawyers on the planet, but
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: because the things that they're arguing and the things that
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: they're doing in their efforts to sue the big tech
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: companies are going to be very hard to prove.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: So you've suggested that there are multiple cases going to
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: court at this point, what are people suing social media
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: companies for.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: They're not all of the schedule. The first one has
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: just kicked off, so there'll be a number of additional
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: cases throughout the year. But the first one is somebody
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: who is simply known by their initials KJAM, twenty years old,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: saying that they are addicted to technology as a child
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: and now have mental health problems. So, in this particular case,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: which is the only one we can talk about because
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: the other ones haven't got a call yet, in this
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: particular case, what they're basically saying is tech companies have
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: intentionally developed platforms using persuasive design elements like endless scroll
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: and the like button and everything that keeps you coming back.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, you and I and everyone else who uses
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: social media knows what they are because they hook us,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: and the algorithm knows us so well. The algorithm is
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: a huge part of this. And fundamentally, the big tech
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: companies have prioritized engagement over wellbeing. They've known what they're doing,
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: they've known that wellbeing is suffering, and they have ignored that.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: They've said, no, no, we want to engage these people.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: We want to addict them, we want to keep them
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: here and therefore mental health problems have resulted there. So
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: essentially they're saying the ABC's of this case, this is
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: literally what the lawyer has said, the abcs of this
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: case that the big tech companies are addicting the brains
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: of children. ABC addicting brains of children. That's pretty much
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: their argument.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: So if this case actually wins, the ramifications for social
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: media companies would be enormous because there would.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Be a lot of people who would say, my pain.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: I can't even begin to imagine how many people.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my mental health problem are a result of my
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: social media use, and now I can sue Meta as
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: well or TikTok as well.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: Like we literally we have friends within our social circle
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: who are dealing with this in such extreme ways. The children.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not a lawyer, but I know a lot about
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: social media and the research around the psychology and well
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: being about young people. The challenge here is the burden
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: of proof. How do you prove that it was social media?
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: How do you prove that it was the persuasive design elements.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: How do you prove that it was intentional and inappropriate
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: behavior by the social media platforms that has created the
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: mental health problem that you're dealing with. That's going to
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: be the challenge. And of course, the whole justice system
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: is you're innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, the burden of
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: proof is on the person who says that they are aggrieved.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: They are the plaintiff in this case.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: So in this case, how will lawyers defend it?
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: I think that they're going to do three things, and
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: I have put a lot of thought into this. If
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: I was the lawyer for a big tech company, this
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: is what I'd be saying. Number one, I would be
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: the legitimacy of quote unquote social media addiction. Addiction generally speaking,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: is a contested and challenging term in psychological literature anyway,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: and without getting into the weeds too much, I just
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: think that it's going to be really hard to say
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: somebody has been addicted to our platform. In fact, Instagram
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: CEO a couple of weeks ago was in court and
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: literally saying I don't believe in such a thing as
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: social media addiction and social media addiction, like I said,
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: massively contested. We know that. In one of my books,
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: in Ten Things Every Parent Needs to Know, I talked
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: about compulsive Internet use, which is a way of very
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: softly saying your children are addicted without using the word addicted,
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: because addicted is such a provocative and it's just one
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: of those terms when if you bring it up to
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: a psychologist, all of a sudden, the flashbulbs start going
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: after and says, well, is it really addiction, because as
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: their tolerance and is their withdrawal and what's been going
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Addiction is a really really challenging term to use, and
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: there is simply not enough data. There is no such
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: thing as a diagnosis of social media addiction. So that
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: will be the first thing that I'll argue. They're not addicted.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: They might be using it a lot, but they're not
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: addicted because you can't be addicted to social media. The
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: second thing that I think they're going to argue is
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: that we've got a whole lot of safety features. We've
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: been implementing safety features from day one, and over the
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: last few years we've gotten better and better and better
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: at this. I would argue that's disingenuous. I do not
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: believe that the safety features that they've got are easy
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: to find, easy to activate, nor were they in They
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: weren't available in the early days of social media. But
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: they will argue that that's a feature. And the third
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: thing is they're going to say, prove that the harm
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: that you've experienced that the social media landscape is what
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: caused what caused your mental health challenges. And that's going
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: to be extremely hard to prove because mental health challenges
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: are so multifaceted. It has to do with your peer
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: group and your family and you and sleep and exercise
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: and medical wellbeing. It there are so many factors that
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: go into it. Oh, there's one other thing that I
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: just remembered as well. There's something called Section two thirty.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Section two thirty is a law in the United States.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: So you don't want to put everyone to sleep, So
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: I'll say this really fast. The law in the United
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: States basically says that the social media platforms are not
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: responsible for what people post on the platforms. In the
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: early days, when people started posting stuff, social media companies went, oh,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: my goodness, this could be challenging for us if we
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: are held liable for what people post, we do not
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: have a product, and so they lobbied and got the
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: government to pass Section two thirty, which fundamentally means people
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: can post whatever they like. Social media companies aren't responsible
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: for what's on their pages. That is also probably going
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: to be used as a way of defending the social
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: media companies, because they can say, well, you've been using
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: our platform, but we're not responsible for what people posted,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: and if the content on there is keeping you coming
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: back and is addictive, that's not our fault. We can't
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: help the people are posting such awesome stuff in spite
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: of the overm So after the break, after the break,
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: because we did need a technic break, I want to
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: talk about my overall take on what this is. And
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll have some questions and comments about it
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: as well. And I do want to talk about what's
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: happening globally and bring that second story in because this
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: social media challenge is not going away and his parents,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: it's really important that we know what's going on here.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: That's next on the Happy Families podcast. We're back. It's
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: the Happy Family's podcast. Thank you so much for listening.
• 9:27
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• 9:29
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• 9:31
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• 9:37
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• 9:40
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• 9:41
  Speaker 1: families happier.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: So what's your take on this? It feels like there
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: is not just a mountain, a mountain range that has
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: to be crossed, right, Yeah, for this to go anywhere.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: This is the neverest. I feel like Judge Judy right now.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm sitting there at the I'm wearing
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: my black robe and I've got my hammer. I'm about
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: to say order, order, and I don't know. I'm not
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: a lawyer, but with what I do know, here's what
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: I would say. Number One, it's hard to argue that
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: social media has not caused harm. I believe that it
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: has not to all teenagers, but certainly too many. And
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: the social media company's own research shows that it has happened,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: that it is happening, that it continues to happen, And
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: it would be breathtakingly disingenuous, mendacious, dishonest for them to
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: say otherwise, but you know what they will, because they
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: are mendacious, and they are dishonest, and they are disingenuous,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: And I've got no belief in their integrity whatsoever.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: I remember experience that you and I had early on
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: in our marriage, and when it came to a verdict
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: being called, the acknowledgment was that, well, the other party
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: had acted immoraly, they had not acted unlawfully.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So this is going back a long time
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: when we ended up in court for some reasons, when
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: I decided that I could win a court case against
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: a previous employer, and it just all it did was
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: chewed up our lives for a year and it was miserable.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: But this, and it's not about morality.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: This to me feels like it's exactly the same thing.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: They know exactly what they're doing, but they've created the
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: safety net within the law to protect them in spite
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: of the fact that it's in a morally corrupt enterprise
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: like it just, I can't see how you can win.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: This is going to be a really big challenge. So
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: they will argue hard against that, even though it does.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: You talked about it the legal landscape, and I'm thinking
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: of all the caves.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Have already passed a law.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all the caves that they can hide in, exactly right,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: all the coves that protect them from the wind, and
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: the storm and that kind of thing.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: I also hide behind this big shield of financial security
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: that buys them whatever they need.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Buy them all the protection they need. Yeah, the technicalities
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: are also going to be really hard to overcome here, compulsive, intentional, addictive, harmful,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: it is. I think that it's pretty clear that they're
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: prioritized engagement over safety. I also think it's clear that
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: they've done too little, too late. But this is going
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: to be tricky, and like I said before, mental health
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: it's so multifaceted. It's so complex to be able to
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: say I have my mental health challenges. They exist because
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: of what you've done on your platform. That's a really,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: really big hard thing to prove, so big lawyers Section
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: two thirty. I'm not hopeful. I'm genuinely not hopeful. I
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: wish I was. I wish I could say this is
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: the start of something new. There's going to be a
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: whole new world. I don't like the chances that this
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: stuff will get up. And I have to add, if
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: the small person here wins against the goliath of the
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: big tech companies, the big tech companies will appeal, it
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: will go to a higher court. This stuff will drag
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: on four years. We are not going to get quick
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: resolutions if.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: She didn't have any mental health challenges before the case.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: By the time she gets through the other end of it,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: it's big challenges. It's going to be intense, taxing. But
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: now I think we've only got a few minutes left.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: And I am curious. You made a prediction at the
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: beginning of the year in relation to the social media
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: minimum age legislation that was recently passed here in Australia,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: and that you believed it would start to have a
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: flow on effect around the.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: World proliferation was my prediction. And where are we at.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: You've got an update.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: The world is paying attention to Australia, which is what
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: I said. People are watching so right now. Indonesia is
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: looking at passing some legislation fairly soon. France has also
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: signed on they're going to make it fifteen. There are
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: some cultural reasons that it's fifteen in France. Sixteen is
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: still a better age, but they're going to go with fifteen.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Fifteen is better than twelve, twelve or thirteen. Also, Spain
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: and the Netherlands are debating legislation at the moment and
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: trying to draft the right legislation to get that through
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: their parliament. And I saw a news article in the
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: last week indicating that the United States of America is
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: saying that they're going to look at it. Now. I
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: don't know what that means, and I've got very very
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: low of hopes. However, the tide is turning, and I
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: do want to read something to you that showed up
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: on Jonathan Heit's blog after Babel. He was sharing something
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: in relation to why this line in the sand moment
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: has happened, and he says this. He says the cognitive
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: psychologist Stephen Pinker explains what's happening. His most recent book,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: When Everyone Knows That Everyone Knows, Common Knowledge and the
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Mysteries of Money, Power and Everyday Life explores the massive
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: social change that can occur when widespread private knowledge suddenly
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: becomes public knowledge. For example, many people may privately know
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: that a dictator is brutal, that an ideology is bankrupt,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: yet nothing changes for many years until something happens that
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: lets everyone know that everyone else knows it too, and
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: that everyone knows that everyone knows that everyone knows. Once
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: that threshold has crossed, new forms of coordination become possible.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Social movements ignite regimes and walls fall. Norms can change
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: almost overnight. Hands Christian Anderson captured the same dynamic in
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: his famous story The Emperor's New Clothes. The Emperor was
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: and everyone could see it, but no one knew if
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: others saw it too, because the swindlers had spread the
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: idea that only the wires could see the cloth. It
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: took a child's cry the Emperor has no clothes to
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: convert private knowledge into public knowledge. What the child said
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: was whispered from one to another until the crowd finally
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: cried out together. This, says Jonathan Hyight, is what happened
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: among leaders around the world in the month after Australia's
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: age limit went into effect. In other words, everyone's always known, well,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: for years, we've known this is not good for our kids,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: but everybody hasn't known that everybody else knows. But now
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: that everybody knows that everybody knows, we can say everybody knows,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: and therefore the change is sweeping the globe.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: So it just feels like to me, there's this reassurance
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: that the power of one voice can actually make a difference.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: It's pretty wild. It's pretty wild. So let's just wrap
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: this up with take home message. To take home message
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: is pretty clear. When your children are engaging with screens,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: they're missing out on life. When your children engaging with screens,
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: their risk of mental health challenges is increasing, the risk
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: of obesity is increasing. Their risk of losing out on
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: sleep is increasing. Their risk of social difficulties is increasing.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: The risk of anything good happening in their lives is
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: decreasing because life happens analog not digital. Far more, parenting
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: should be analog as well, not digital. That's the take
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: home message for today. Thanks so much for listening to
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast Doctor's Desk this week in parenting
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: mash Up, We'll be back tomorrow with Older Better Tomorrow,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: where we unpack the week that was, Oh, some pretty
• 16:41
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• 16:43
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• 16:46
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  Speaker 1: support from Mim Hammond's. More information and resources about making
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: your family happier is available at happy families dot com
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: dot au, including our ADHD course for families with neurodiverging
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: kids that just want to be happier MHM