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Navigating High-Stakes Divorce: A Top Attorney's Honest Guide · Healthy Happy Wise Wealthy

• [Mary Meyer] Welcome back to Healthy, Happy, Wise, Wealthy. We have with us today Lisa Ziederman, who is a divorce lawyer from New York City, and I'm so thankful that you're here. There's so many things I think it would be so helpful for people to know as their divorce is such a tough thing and you go into it emotionally charged. So that's always tough. Before we jump in, we have a podcast sponsor, Mindiii, M-I-N-D-I-I-I, and they do all kinds of anything you need IT, including making hardware. So all the back end stuff, building a great website, all those things. So Lisa, thank you. Do you mind? I know I asked you before we started if I could read just a little bio. [Lisa Zeiderman] No, I don't mind, and thank you for having me, Mary. [Mary Meyer] Yeah, you're welcome. Okay, so Lisa, as a managing partner of Miller Ziederman LLP, she works at the Crossroads of Law, Financial Strategy, and Long-Term Stability for Clients Navigating High Stakes Divorce and Custody Situations. She's a certified divorce financial analyst, a certified financial litigator, a founding member of the American Academy of Certified Financial Litigators, and a regular contributor to major publications. She's also a board chair of Savvy Ladies, vice chair of family legal care, and has been named super lawyer every year since 2020, plus multiple Crain’s New York Honorary Listings. So that's amazing, so much good stuff. So divorce, you know, I don't even know where do we even begin to start. I think when people head into it, I'm sure they come to you pretty overwhelmed, angry, not sure what direction to go. What do you think is one of the main things people are missing as they head into a divorce? [Lisa Zeiderman] So I think that sometimes people head into a divorce, I think, unrealistic about how it's going to play out, how expensive it can become, and most importantly, how long it could take. I think that there is just a lack of understanding of many of those things, unfortunately. [Mary Meyer] Yeah, so if it was someone who was really close to you, what advice would you give them just to start? I mean, yeah, maybe even if they couldn't use you, but they're going to someone else, like what's the advice to start? [Lisa Zeiderman] So I think that the advice to start is that you have to have the stamina, and that you don't want to be giving up in the middle, or even at the beginning, that you need to make sure that you're taking care of yourself, that you're staying strong, and that you're not being worn down, and that means being worn down by your spouse, being worn down by the time that it's taking, you know, all of those things, and that at some point, you also have to be realistic about what the options really are, and that you want to make sure that you don't give up opportunities to resolve your case because you're being unrealistic about what the outcome will be. [Mary Meyer] So what things do people, what are they unrealistic about? [Lisa Zeiderman] So I think they're unrealistic about sometimes support, how much they should pay or how much they should get. They're unrealistic about the fact that perhaps they've given up a lot of time and energy in the marriage, and they may not actually see that rewarded in a monetary way because the assets just aren't necessarily there to reward them, or they've been out of the workforce and there's just no way to make up for that, you know, if they've been out for a long period of time, that they have an idea that, you know, their lives will be exactly the same because there's something out there that said to them that your lifestyle won't change, and that's probably not realistic. There's going to be some lifestyle changes, realisticness about custody and the fact that you will be sharing your child in some way. I think that that's a huge, huge issue. I think people have this idea that their children will not sleep at the other parents' home or that they won't be going back and forth or any of these things, and that somehow doing all those things would be so damaging. And I think that that's unrealistic unless there is good reason for it. And most of the time, there won't be good reason for it. Sometimes it could be, but most of the time there won't be. So I think all of those things are just areas that people become unrealistic. [Mary Meyer] And there's such an emotional, I have, you know, been through a divorce that just felt very, I don't know, my lawyer said it was one of the tougher cases they'd seen. So I'm going to go with what they said. But the one thing that I learned in the middle of this was that the lawyers aren't there for the emotional support. They're there to get the legal side done. And it is almost like lawyers speak, in my opinion, speak a different language than what maybe a counselor would do or something like that. And I felt a mistake that I made that probably cost me some money and was just going in needing emotional support from the lawyer. [Lisa Zeiderman] I think that's not unusual. Look, I think that every lawyer who goes through, who is a divorce attorney or matrimonial attorney, is going to have some ability to work with clients through their emotional issues. That being said, we're not therapists and we're trained differently than therapists are, right? It's like night and day, frankly. We, our thinking is extremely logical and very, you know, factual and motivated by evidence and facts and all of those things that are required. And so while we may be empathetic to the situation, it's not, we're really not there to be a therapist. We're there to advocate and to counsel and, you know, and if necessary, to try a case, to negotiate, to do all of those things. But at the end of the day, we're not there to just basically do or hear what a client wishes would be the situation, right? And I think that therapists often are able to just listen and not respond as much. And when they do respond, be more empathetic or more, you know, dealing with, delving into the emotional part of this and why it happened, you know, how it could have maybe not happened and all of those things, right? That's not where we are when you are in your lawyer's office. When you're in your lawyer's office, you are there to figure out how to get out of the situation that you're in. [Mary Meyer] Right. [Lisa Zeiderman] Yeah. [Mary Meyer] I have, I've been in front of the lawyer, a good friend for a decade, and that has helped me understand a little bit better about like, here's the legal parameters that you have and you're trying to find things to fit in those boxes. And I'm just, you know, I'm more of a, probably a counselor mindset. I'm not a counselor, but, you know, that's probably more how I'm, how I'm wired. And so just, I think knowing that going in is going to save you some, probably a little bit of money because a counselor is a little less per hour, usually. And, and also just like, and be more mindful of, I would call you more of a strategist. [Lisa Zeiderman] I think that that's right. I also think that you have to be a little bit mindful of the fact that a therapist may have a view, but it may not be a legal view. And so I think that a therapist should be giving you emotional advice and your lawyer should be giving you the legal advice. And many therapists are knowledgeable in the area, but again, sometimes their thinking is very different. And so if it's an important issue, you need to make sure before you act upon something that you are actually getting the advice of your lawyer. [Mary Meyer] Yes. [Lisa Zeiderman] And I'll give you an example, Mary, because I think it's an important example. It just came to me. Years ago, I had a client who the therapist said to the client, you must tell the child, okay, how much you're paying for the support that you're paying because the child thinks that you're not paying because mom is really bad mouthing you, et cetera. And I said, no, you really can't do that. Okay. You can say that's not accurate, what you're saying to me is not accurate, but you're really not going to get your child involved in the nitty gritty details of how much you're paying and how much you're giving mom and doing any of that. And the therapist was insistent that the client do this. And I said, don't do it because if you do it, the judge will be so angry that you are further involving this child. And I think the therapist just didn't understand that because the therapist had him in court, you know, a hundred times listening to that conversation, right, of where the judge says, do not involve the children. [Mary Meyer] Right. And I think that's really hard when one child is bringing in a child and doing it. And the other parent is told, don't do it. They're both told, don't do it. But one doesn't listen to that, which can happen. I think a lot. It happens a lot. [Lisa Zeiderman] Exactly. Yeah. [Mary Meyer] Yeah. So well, since we're talking about some custody stuff, what thoughts do you have for people facing the custody arrangement? [Lisa Zeiderman] So I think a few things. Number one, I think that if you want to succeed in any custody situation, you have to be really careful not to marginalize the other parent in any way. Because first of all, it's hurtful to the child. The child will eventually resent you for doing it. It's hurtful to your case, because the judge will be furious. And the judge will hear about it. Either the child will repeat what you've said, or the child will, you know, say it to a teacher or a therapist, or perhaps in a meeting, you know, at some point, the child may meet with the judge privately with his or her attorney. And there is, you know, what did mom say? What did dad say? Who, you know, well, you know, the child may say something bad about dad. And the question will be, who told you that, right? And, well, mom told me that. Or the child may say something bad about mom. And who told you that? Dad told me that. So there are ways that, that I think people overlook the fact that their children are going to blur these things out. Someone just told me a story. It was a great story, actually, which was they would be for a judge as an attorney for the child. And the first thing the judge asked, What did your mother and father want me to know? And the child just blurted all out immediately, right? My mother said to make sure I told you, my father said to make sure I told you, right? And it's a great question, because the child cannot usually sort out the, particularly under a stressful situation, what he or she is supposed to say or not say, or how they're supposed to remember it. And now you're sending in a child as a messenger. And so I think that people need to not involve their children in their divorce. They need to shield their children from it, and they need to not marginalize or disparage the other parent. [Mary Meyer] Yeah, I heard similar, very similar things from my daughter, and I was in Tennessee at the time. So for sure. And also just in general, I would, I would say to anyone, it's like, you don't use a child as a shield for your issues. This is a grown up issue. They're not, they're not there to be a shield, you're there to be their shield. They're not your shield. And it's, it's a, I definitely lose respect for people who need to have a child as a shield emotionally, by bringing them over to their side. Do you deal with, you know, I've had someone on and just for the topic of parental alienation. So in terms of like, one really is bringing a child in so far that that child won't have anything to do with the other parent. [Lisa Zeiderman] Yeah, we see that. We certainly see that the resistant refused to see a parent is very, very disturbing and does happen quite a bit. Actually, as divorce goes through, you know, goes on, you know, children take sides. If there have been affairs, children take sides because they feel protective of a parent. Children take sides because one parent is very manipulative and able to create, you know, a bond between that person and the child and to marginalize the other parents. And the divorce became that other parent's fault. If not for the other parent, we would all be together as a family. It's a shame that your father or mother had their affair. Otherwise we'd be all together, right? All of these kinds of things. If only they had paid attention to us, you know. And so I think that this idea of bringing the children into the marital issues that existed as if this child was part of them in some way is unfortunate. [Mary Meyer] It is so damaging for so long. It can be so damaging for so many decades and really rob them of their ability to deal with their own issues at the time and their own growth and what they need to be dealing with it during those years is not your issues. Just tell them they're going to be safe and it's going to get figured out and, you know, they can have their life and if they have their own emotions, of course they have to deal with that stuff. So if you have the parent who is, you know, kind of being pushed out, is there any legal advice you have for that parent? [Lisa Zeiderman] Well, so we do a couple of things. Sometimes we ask for a forensic evaluation so that somebody can unthread the needle of what's happening. We also encourage that parent to do special things with the child, not to be pushy, but yet to be around and to be available and to do things that the child likes to do to make sure that the communication doesn't break down totally, to send the text messages, to send the birthday cards, to do all of that. Sometimes there's nothing that can be done. You just need to give the child space and at some point the child may come around and understand that he or she has been alienated from the other parent and actually turn the corner and decide that they're no longer seeing the parent who is the alienator. And we have seen that quite a bit. So I think all hope should not be lost. We also talk about and have people engage in therapeutic access where they're able to hear each other and work out the issues that might be, you know, the barrier from having a healthy relationship. There are people in New York, for example, that specialize in this area and they're very good at it. And so if the children actually can get there and be part of those sessions, they often are very successful. [Mary Meyer] That's really good to know about that. Yeah. And it can be so damaging to the, you know, it can sometimes it can be very long lasting for a parent who is alienated like that. And it's so tragic in every conceivable way. With that. Oh, gosh. So that is, that's a big part of it. You know, when you're going through, if you have kids, you have to just remember that this is, you're there to protect the child from your own emotions. So you're there to be the sounding board for their emotions and not to put your emotions on them. It's like, that's a really, really big, really big deal. [Lisa Zeiderman] It is, it is, you have to be a super parent. [Mary Meyer] Yeah, be a super parent. And I think some, sometimes I wonder if some of these times the alienation happens because people just feel like it's like a death, you know, it's, there's no going to be no life after this, my, my egos through and my finances are ruined, my anything is ruined, and there is life after divorce. So I've been divorced. There's a life, it's a different life, but there's life. So, so tell me, I know you have so much to say about the financial side of it. I do. I do. [Lisa Zeiderman] So, you know, I think that being transparent about the finances is so important during the marriage. And I think that being transparent during the divorce is even more important because I think that that speeds it up. It also ensures that you're going to spend a lot less in lawyers fees and expert fees. And all those things that people don't like about divorce, it takes too long. It's too expensive. All those things, the way to make sure that that doesn't happen is to make sure that you are transparent about your finances, that you turn over your documents, fill out your net worth statement carefully and correctly, make sure that you are being truthful, you know, take the deposition and don't have, you know, don't play the games, not answering the questions, doing all those things. We were just prepping for another deposition last week and reading next week and reading the transcript. And the person doesn't answer the question. So how is that going to be helpful, right? Right. How is that going to be helpful? So I think that that's all really important. [Mary Meyer] Yeah. Yeah. I totally went through that with non-answer questions. So why do you think that happens with someone where they're just like avoiding all the financial stuff and trying to hide it? And what's, what's the motivator behind that? [Lisa Zeiderman] That they will wear the other person out. I think that that's the big motivator. They, the other person will become frightened that the money will run out, that there won't be any, that they, you know, they will be spending it on, on the lawyers and the experts, that they just can't take it anymore. You know, it's been too long going through this. And eventually, many of those people are successful in wearing out the other spouse. It is a strategy. I, I'm going to say it's a, it's a huge strategy. And, you know, I just finished somebody's divorce. It was a long time, but I will say she stuck with it. She had the stamina and she did very well at the end. But she trusted us and, and we did a very good job and the husband could not have been more deliberately intentional about hiding assets. And we found probably most of them, but certainly much more than he ever probably thought that we would find. And, and that was really important, but it's about stamina, you know, it's about the fact that she was willing to go along and do, do what she had to do. You know, I think that that makes a very big difference. [Mary Meyer] Yeah, I imagine so. So for someone who is in that position where they're, you know, what kind of, what kind of things are they hearing or feeling that would keep them from wanting to go forward? Like, is it like, they just, they just can't take it anymore emotionally or what happens? [Lisa Zeiderman] So I think that they can't take it anymore. They, they feel like they're spending too much on legal fees. They are not willing to, you know, take the risk to find the rest of it, right? There's all of those things that are going on, right? They don't trust anybody because they, you know, they don't even trust their attorneys because they themselves feel that they have been taken advantage of by their spouse. And now the whole system is taking advantage of them. And they, you know, they feel that they're in the dark and they can't deal with it anymore. And their answer to all of this is just to throw up their hands and, and just walk away. And that is the worst thing that they can do. [Mary Meyer] Yeah. So for someone who's hiding assets like that, how does, does a judge, is there, is there punitive action that's taken for that? [Lisa Zeiderman] So it's hard. Okay. And you have to first find the assets, right? So we, we send out subpoenas, we do depositions, we look for the assets. You know, we eventually usually find them. We hire forensic accounting firms. We do all of those things, right? And as we find the assets, we're able to go in and ask that the person pay legal fees, right? And so, but sometimes that may mean that the spouse who is looking for the assets is fronting a lot of the legal fees until we get to the point when you could see it clearly. Because the tax returns may not tell the whole story. The person may have been dishonest throughout the entire marriage. They may have their own business and they're not showing the loans that they took from the business or the distributions that they took from the business or, you know, all of the perks that they took from the business. And so it's, it's definitely a hide and seek situation and a patience, patience is needed. [Mary Meyer] Yeah. I do have a friend that is going through something like that right now with the shared, it was a shared business. And so, and then she had to leave the business. So that kind of thing right there where you're just like, yeah, but it's, you know, the possibility of like, what is the, what is just to kind of dissect all that and go, do I ask for, you know, more money as, as the years go on as a shared, you know, part owner since I grew it, or do I take a buyout or, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that are pretty complex. [Lisa Zeiderman] There are, I mean, there are, I always think in some ways that the buyout is the best way to go, because then you can reinvest the money into something else. And, you know, if she was part business owner, maybe she starts her own business, etc. I think it's very hard to be in business with someone that you might not have picked now as your business partner and how are you going to know she was in the business. So maybe she'll be in better shape, but for a spouse who was not in the business, who is essentially going to have to do a forensic accounting every single year, in order to understand what the profits were, what the distribution should be, what other expenses are being run through the business. It's endless. And I don't see how it really makes sense. [Mary Meyer] Yeah. And exhausting. And exhausting. The emotional exhaustion that comes with that. So I can totally understand that. So for that woman who, and this was me where I supported my ex and his business for all those years and raised children, lots of lots of children. And then you're on your own. You know, that was, I think I could write multiple books on the topic, but I don't think I'd want to read it because it's so tough. Like the situation, I want to address it because it is so tough to go through a divorce. And I think it's maybe it's like childbirth, once you're done with it, like you just want to forget about it or something. But I feel like there's, there was a very bad lead up to getting in good information, either emotionally or, you know, what to do. Cause as you're facing the thought of, I don't think I can stay in this marriage. There's, it just doesn't seem like there is enough. I couldn't find enough emotional support through counseling or, you know, once I got a lawyer, then, but you know, once you get a lawyer, you're kind of like, well, this is happening. And I don't know that I was really sure what was happening, like all the dynamics of it, right? You kind of know the basics, but it just does seem like there, it is a thing that so many people go through that there just need to be a whole lot of just, this is what's going to happen. This is what to do, what not to do, kind of, kind of advice on that. [Lisa Zeiderman] So I think it's hard. Okay. I'm going to say this. I know that it's almost as if you need a college education just on divorce, if you're going through divorce, right? And you're kind of learning something brand new as you're going through it, right? And I think it's hard for the divorce attorney to anticipate all of the different things that could go on or that somebody's going to do, right? Like the do's and don'ts, I will say it's an impossibility to figure out the do's and don'ts because people do things that are just so new, I will say they are just so shockingly new. And sometimes I'm just like, what? So I think that using common sense, trying to think of what would someone who is a reasonable person think of what I'm about to do, writing an email or a text message to your attorney before you do it. If you think that it doesn't make sense, if something is saying to you, maybe my attorney is not going to be happy with this, better to ask than to do it and then find out later. I also think that people have to understand if there's court orders, they need to obey them. If there's a court ordered schedule, they need to obey it. I find it shocking that people don't understand that court orders are there for a reason and that judges don't like it when you just obey their orders. And so I think generally if we had to do a do's and don'ts, so do be transparent about your assets, don't hide them. Do be supportive of the other parent in a custody case. Don't disparage or marginalize the other parent. Do write your text in a polite manner. Don't curse at the other parent. Don't involve your children. Things that would seem frankly to be common sense are not always common sense. I don't know that I should have to say many of these things. Okay. But apparently we do every day. [Mary Meyer] Well, and sometimes you get out of a marriage or someone does because one person really sets themself up in the marriage with a power dynamic where they have all the power and you have, well, they'll maybe give you 5% power. They really feel like they're holding all the power and they assume they can carry that same, the energy that leads to the divorce. They're assuming they can take and manage everyone throughout the divorce process. And that is fascinating to me. Of course, it's a bit of narcissism. We could call it that. But that many times does lead to the divorce and then you have all these crazy stuff that can go on during the divorce with that. [Lisa Zeiderman] I think that's right. I think though, if people use common sense, if they say to themselves, is this really in the best interest of my child? If they say, will hiding it really help? Or when Ms. Ziderman finds out that I hid the assets, okay, isn't she going to look for more? Isn't that going to be more expensive? Is that going to stop her? I think that these are all like questions people need to ask themselves, right? So, you know, when we see that one asset was hidden, when we find that first million that was hidden or the first 500 or the first 5 million, you don't think I'm going to crawl under every rock and find the other 10 or 15 million you've hidden. It's just not going to happen that way. I'm going to subpoena the world. [Mary Meyer] As you should. Right? [Lisa Zeiderman] Okay, so I think that people just don't understand that and they underestimate their spouse and their spouse's ability to choose an attorney. [Mary Meyer] Yeah, well, in situations like this where there's been a power dynamic and in the marriage that's now leading to the divorce, that absolutely is the case where they don't feel like the spouses. They just look down on them, of course. Right. For whatever reason. [Lisa Zeiderman] I think it's 100% right. And I think that what they don't understand is that their spouse is not necessarily picking an attorney like they are, okay? Their spouse is not necessarily going out and picking someone with who is going to be controlled, okay? Or who is going to listen to direction in the same way that perhaps they were able to give that direction to their spouse. That attorney is not going to be doing that likely. [Mary Meyer] Yeah. And maybe you were very good at controlling your spouse. And so your estimation of your ability to control is very high. So I hope you hear this to go, you're going to look stupid because you're not the first one who's going to try these things. They've been tried a million times at this point. All the games that have been played are all usually very similar. And so you're going to get found out and you're going to look dumb. [Lisa Zeiderman] Or poor, frankly. You will look poor at the end because you will have spent all these legal fees and you still are going to give up those assets. And you may end up giving up more. You know, years ago I had a client who had little pieces of paper when she would come to me. She would find them in the garbage. She would find them in all sorts of places. Right. And one of them revealed an overseas account that had been there for years, millions of dollars. Another revealed some other investment, life insurance policies. We subpoenaed and we found so much money in cash surrender values. It was just, and I remember asking the husband in his deposition, you know, your statement in network doesn't reveal all this. How am I supposed to know what you actually have? And he said, you'll just keep on doing what you're doing. You'll just keep on subpoenaing. And he thought it was a joke. And it wasn't a joke, frankly, when my client didn't get 50% of the assets but got 65% of the assets. That wasn't a joke anymore. And it wasn't a joke when he had to pay from his other 35% of the assets, all of her legal fees and all of her expert fees, which were large, frankly. Okay. And that all went back to her, right? Because she had paid us. That wasn't a joke anymore. And it was no longer a joke. And he thought he was being cute. And I'm sure that many people would have given up, but she didn't give up. And as a result, we didn't give up and we found quite a bit for her. [Mary Meyer] Good for you. That's great. [Lisa Zeiderman] So I think you have to find the right attorney. I think you have to feel confident in your attorney. I think you have to give them their ability to do what they need to do. I also think that people become angry sometimes at their attorneys or resentful at their attorneys, all of those things, because it's taking so long and what's happening and all of these things, right? And it's expensive, but I think that's unfortunately part of the process. And if you are going to take that position, you're not going to help yourself. [Mary Meyer] Right. Yeah. And it's really interesting to some of these things you mentioned just to go back to it, like to be smart about what you write. It's very easy to subpoena what you've written and the judge will see it. So everyone needs to understand that what you've written to your soon to be ex spouse, what you've written to children, what you've written anywhere is easy to get and use against you. So be careful. [Lisa Zeiderman] Be careful of what you write and be careful of what you say. [Mary Meyer] Right. [Lisa Zeiderman] In New York, we have one party consent on recordings, meaning that if I am recording and you are in the room and I am, you and I are speaking, I can record you. You don't have to know that I'm recording you. And even if you ask me if I'm recording you and I say, no, I'm not recording you, I can still record you. [Mary Meyer] And that's good for protection for sure. I had a recording that I did that he was unaware of and it saved me legally. And also I think if I didn't have that recording, I would not have recalled the incident because it was traumatic. I think that's true. Yeah. So there's, there's things like that, that there's a lot of things that can, it can be a dangerous time to, I know you had mentioned a little bit since once in a while you have a domestic violence situation. Maybe that's not the main thing, but I have heard that if that is going on, that can be, or there is even a control that that would be the time when domestic violence is most likely to occur when violence in general during a divorce. So there is, there is a certain amount of, be mindful of your mouth and watch. Just be careful. Just in general, be careful. [Lisa Zeiderman] And I think if you are in a situation with this domestic violence that you need to let your attorney know, you need to let your therapist know because you might need to report it to the police, you might need to get orders of protection. There are various things that you might need to do. [Mary Meyer] Yeah. [Lisa Zeiderman] But everybody should stay safe. [Mary Meyer] Is there any advice you have for women that are going like they're just not sure gut feeling, feel like maybe something could happen that if they don't want to tell you like, what kind of advice do you have on that? [Lisa Zeiderman] You know, I think that you need to be super honest about any domestic violence. I know people who sometimes feel shame about it or they just feel lack of control. They need to be very honest about it. [Mary Meyer] Yeah. And that's tough. I have had, I feel like, and it's so common and I'm not even a professional and I have had to just walk through with friends just in the last, it just seems like every year I have a friend who's going through a domestic violence situation that she's not initially super honest about probably because there is the shame, there's the shock. And I think maybe forgetfulness, like it happens when you, maybe you just kind of forget it happens as the PTSD kind of response. So you're not the only one it's happened to. It's way too common. And I would reiterate, yeah, do it. Make sure you're safe. Exactly. Yeah. In every way. So what is the, so for a woman who hasn't been the drug winner, like what should she expect? What's the right expectation? [Lisa Zeiderman] So I think it depends on the state that you live in, right? On what the right expectation is. I'm a New York attorney and I'm only going to speak for New York. And this is not legal advice that we're giving today, but I think that you can expect in New York that, you know, if you have an educational background, if you have a work background, that some income is likely to be imputed to you as if you were working and that you are going to likely have to find some work. I think you can expect that there will be support, you know, if you're not the breadwinner, but it won't be forever likely. And, and so that is important to remember. I think it's also important to remember that you want to keep your ears and your eyes open to make sure that you're looking for assets and that you're understanding the tax returns that you're signing and that you're getting yourself prepared if you actually with documentation as much as you can collect, if you are going to go through a divorce. [Mary Meyer] Yeah, that's, that's very good advice of course. It's, that's basically what I experienced in Tennessee. So I imagine there's some, a probable commonality and I'm sure it's a bit too. Yeah. So if you're, if you're the one who has been the breadwinner and there are, let's say two kids who are eight and ten, we'll just give a scenario. What, what should you expect to have to do for your support? [Lisa Zeiderman] Well, I think you're going to be paying child support. You're going to be paying a percentage of add-on expenses. So medical insurance, unreimbursed medical expenses, extracurricular activities, camp, childcare, you know, all of, all of the, you know, if there's private school, private school tuition, but a pro rata so that there is skin in the game for the other spouse as well likely, you know, it depends on what the income looks like. So I think that that's the big difference, right? If the income is very high and in New York it's often very high, you know, then you may be paying the lion's share or all of it. It depends. But I think that you can expect that you're certainly going to be paying child support and that you may be paying alimony and that you are likely going to be dividing most, not necessarily all, but most of the assets that are marital property 50-50. The exception will be businesses. So if you're running a business that's not likely to be a 50-50, it will be, you know, anywhere depending upon the duration of the marriage and the complications and all of that kind of stuff and the contributions by the other spouse to raising the children and helping support you, you know, it's going to be some percentage that will be less than 50% likely and there will be a buyout and it may be over time if you are not very liquid and it could even be with interest. [Mary Meyer] So that is for sure. So if there's that dynamic where one person has been the breadwinner and one person has been the caretaker, how would they typically expect a decision making like where they go to school, who's paying for braces, you know, that just different things with parenting decisions that are, how is that determined? [Lisa Zeiderman] Well, it's determined by someone's involvement but also, you know, people get up to speed during a divorce and so, you know, I know that there is a view that if you've always been the primary caretaker that you will always be the primary caretaker and that isn't necessarily the case because sometimes the other parent steps up, you know, when you were in an intact family it was easy to lean on one parent for one thing and then lean on the other person perhaps to be the breadwinner and now it may kind of balance out a little bit more and so you can expect change. [Mary Meyer] Yeah, that makes sense. Do you know normally recommend that people like say it's eight and ten, like that example, do you recommend that stuff goes into place for the remaining ten years about expectation or do you put it more like decisions will be made as you go along? [Lisa Zeiderman] So I don't know that I'm clear on the question. [Mary Meyer] Well, like for example, you know, when they're going to high school that there will be, you know, just different decisions, say there's two different religions going on in the family or, you know, they will go to, you know, this and this as they go along there will be shared interest of let's say this Jewish and Christian going to, you know, the synagogue going to church, whatever it would be. Is something like that in place or is it just kind of like be good parents? [Lisa Zeiderman] Yeah, we don't do the be good parents usually. We don't really depend on the be good parents because be good parents means you're going to be back in the courthouse. So we try to give very specific agreements. You know, the child may be raised in both faiths or one faith. The child may choose at a particular point which faith if either or none or both the child's going to attend Hebrew school or Catholic school or, you know, or be raised as an Orthodox Jew or be raised as, you know, a Roman Catholic or whatever it is going to be, you know, that the holidays are going to be spelled out specifically. Somebody's going to have Hanukkah and somebody's going to have Christmas if there is a differentiation. Somebody's going to have Yom Kippur and somebody's going to have, you know, Easter Sunday, okay. So we're going to be very specific about it. [Mary Meyer] Yeah, yeah. [Lisa Zeiderman] Be good parents is just a recipe for a disaster. [Mary Meyer] It really, I feel like you're right. Like the more specifics you can put in there, the better it's going to be down the line. Have you ever had a situation where either your client or your client's ex-spouse goes to jail over not following rules? [Lisa Zeiderman] So I have had that situation. It was one of my first cases actually. I had someone incarcerated because they didn't make the payments. And I think it was one of my very first cases that I actually ever was on. And the woman wasn't being paid and the husband kept promising he would pay it. And then he came in and he told the judge after he promised and promised that he was losing his house in the Hamptons and he couldn't make the payments and something was going on with his business. And I remember the judge saying that's a really bad streak of luck as all of the court officers were surrounding him for the handcuffs. Miraculously, after a weekend at, I think it was at the tombs, we called the tombs in Manhattan, somehow the money was found. Amazing. [Mary Meyer] And I think that goes back to people just feeling like they're very good manipulators and no one's ever done it before. They're the only ones that know how to do it right. And they don't realize that it's just the same and the same and you hear the manipulation stories, I think. Without a doubt. Yeah, pretty regularly. So what do you think? Do you think there is life after divorce? [Lisa Zeiderman] So I absolutely think there's life after divorce on my second marriage and 28 years in. And I'm extremely happily married. So I absolutely think that there's life after divorce. I also think that, you know, people may be very angry during the divorce but they usually come down after time has passed. And so there can be life where you are sharing, you know, graduations and all sorts of things, weddings, grandchildren. I think that these are all things that can happen. I think people find new careers. I think people start businesses. I think that there are so many things that can happen after divorce. [Mary Meyer] Yeah, for sure. And new friendships, there's a way to make new friendships. I was just talking to someone and said, they're divorcing. You know, I feel like I'm always, I'm not as a, you know, as a person in the middle of something, it feels like, not in the middle of it, but just people are coming to me just needing support somehow or another. And I was just like, you know, meetup groups. And I had someone say, what is a meetup group? I'm like, meetup, and like they were thinking that I was thinking of something super sketchy. I'm like, no, meetup is, I think is, I'm assuming it's nationwide. It's pretty big. And, you know, that's just start there if you don't know where else to go, but do some Google searches. What is interesting to you? Exactly. The workouts, you know, and I would, of course, not recommend jumping right back into dating, even though we'll see people do anyway, but, you know, but fine, you need friends. So maybe you do start dating because you're going to do whatever you want to do, but make sure you also reimagine a friend group because lots of times you do lose friends in a divorce. And I certainly had to go reimagine myself more than one time. I feel like, yep, no, I think that's great advice. Yeah. But, you know, and I've moved so many times. I'm in my third state. At this point, I'm like, you know what? I don't even know. Like, you just like one foot in front of the other and, you know, life is going to have some bad stuff and some good stuff but it's not going to stop. Exactly. Like, don't let it stop. Just keep moving forward. Exactly. You're going to find good things and bad things are always going to be there, but, you know. [Lisa Zeiderman] Exactly. [Mary Meyer] Yeah. So, that's great. So, Lisa, what else? [Lisa Zeiderman] I think we've covered it. I think that you have done an unbelievable job as a host today, Mary. Oh, thank you. So, no, I think that we've covered it and I think that people just need to be hopeful and they need to, you know, get through it and hold on to their stamina and be strong and they will get to the end. [Mary Meyer] Yeah, we will get to the end and it will be like afterwards. [Lisa Zeiderman] Exactly. [Mary Meyer] Yes, absolutely. Well, Lisa, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you. [Lisa Zeiderman] Thank you. [Mary Meyer] Enjoy the rest of your evening. You too. Did you like that?