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The disability trap: Support systems stabilize but limit lives · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:08
  If we've learned anything from these past couple of years, my call of Americans that personal medical freedom and liberty are in crisis.
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  I'll marry Ground Law Pulse brings together the top experts and health care related fields to keep you up being ahead.
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  Don't miss a moment join us every Friday at 5 p.m.
• 0:39
  Eastern.
• 0:39
  I'm Dr.
• 0:40
  Randall Bach here to unpack myths, explore innovations and give you actual insights into the world of medicine and health.
• 0:45
  I'm honored today to have with me guest Matthew McQueen.
• 0:49
  And he is the author of My Escape from the Disabling Power of Disability Benefits.
• 0:54
  And this was published January 2026 in the blog magazine called Mad in America.
• 1:01
  That's mad in America.com.
• 1:03
  And I recommend you read it.
• 1:12
  And finding new abilities amongst boiler claimed disabilities.
• 1:16
  So Matthew, tell us a little bit about you, your story and how you came to write that article.
• 1:23
  Well, the part of my life that directly relates to the article, I'd say probably around the time.
• 1:32
  So I'll step back a little bit.
• 1:33
  I started smoking marijuana chronically at 16.
• 1:37
  And then around 19 years old, it stopped getting me high and started getting me psychotic, which made it very difficult for me to function within the community.
• 1:48
  And my family, the state legal system, my psychiatric team put a lot of effort into me getting sober.
• 1:55
  And I was not interested in that at all.
• 1:57
  So from about uh 19 to 22, I spent a good amount of time in psych hospitals and rehabs.
• 2:06
  And it was when I was in one of those psych hospitals that I became a department of mental health client and got on benefits.
• 2:14
  And then eventually, my last, you know, out of the extended period around 22 years old, I got out of the hospital.
• 2:20
  Obviously, still didn't want to get sober, but I was on probation because I had legal issues around getting sober.
• 2:25
  Um, but I did get sober at 22.
• 2:28
  And um, but anyways, I got put on benefits at 19, and kind of when I hit that point where I was in the community again at 22, and I talked a little bit about this in the article, I just kind of settled into this mode where it was like, okay, I'm on benefits now.
• 2:43
  I can just kind of rest in these for as long as possible, potentially the extent of my life and have a fairly um low threshold for responsibility, but also like a low amount of responsibility and just kind of relax forever.
• 2:59
  And I kind of sat in that mode for about nine months to a year.
• 3:02
  I went to a day program.
• 3:04
  I went to meetings and got sober, but I wasn't really serious about having any real aspirations.
• 3:09
  Um eventually, and I talked about this in the article that you read, I hit a point where it was like this is unfulfilling.
• 3:16
  And I saw everybody else, all the peers in my day program environment who already lived that that life just going forward, and I was like fearful.
• 3:26
  Like, I I don't want to do that.
• 3:28
  I don't want to be this for 40 years.
• 3:30
  Maybe it was nice to do this for nine or 10 months, but this shouldn't be like the summary of my goals for my entire existence.
• 3:37
  So at that point in time, I put kind of a lot of effort into you know, sustaining kind of self ability, becoming uh not needing the benefits and becoming uh capable as an individual.
• 3:51
  And I was able to completely come off of benefits.
• 3:54
  I think I got off disability in 2008 and I ended up getting out of my subsidized apartment in 2009.
• 4:00
  Um, and I haven't needed any benefits since then.
• 4:03
  And I briefly alluded this to this in the article.
• 4:06
  I'm a peer worker, I've been doing it since 2006, and I've met a vast number of individuals with mental health issues and drug addictions who are on benefits who were in the same place that I was who are kind of like their entire aspiration is to protect those benefits.
• 4:22
  They won't work past a certain threshold.
• 4:24
  Some people very much consider themselves disabled for the rest of their life, and they're never even gonna try to get off.
• 4:30
  And in the 20 years that I've been working as a peer, I've literally only had one client who completely got off benefits and only heard rumors of a second client who completely got off benefits.
• 4:40
  And I've met and worked with dozens and dozens, maybe even up to 100 people, and it's just the the amount of people who get stuck on the benefits and just kind of like, okay, I'm gonna sit here and put a hedge around these, and these are gonna make things comfortable.
• 4:53
  Maybe they'll do a little school, maybe they'll do a little work, but not enough to really pierce through and become independent anymore.
• 5:00
  Like the benefits are very important to protect.
• 5:02
  Some people won't work at all.
• 5:03
  I remember working with one client, and he's very capable, and I'm trying to instill that in him and kind of move him to be a little bit more independent in his abilities.
• 5:11
  And he's like, but I get 240 in benefits a week, and I have to protect those.
• 5:15
  And I'm like, you could have so much more than 240 in benefits a week that you need to protect.
• 5:21
  So it's a very quick summary, I guess.
• 5:23
  But yeah, no, it's interesting.
• 5:26
  I mean, it's kind of pops up or makes crystallize a lot of thoughts that I've had along the same way because I've treated uh narcotic addicts and just patients in general, and I also did disability examinations for the state of Massachusetts or the Commonwealth, and as well as for the VA federally.
• 5:44
  Um, you know, I'm kind of uh I had a reputation as Dr.
• 5:49
  No.
• 5:49
  Uh the James Bond villain.
• 5:51
  Uh that was the term that some people coined for me back in the 80s or so 90s, uh, because I would say no to many things.
• 5:58
  You know, people come in asking for drugs, you know, generally the answer was no, when narcotics and whatnot.
• 6:03
  And for disabilities, you know, it's not like I automatically said no, but I my fact frankly I tried to see the the the different the inverse that it's not I was saying no to disability, I was trying to say yes to your capabilities.
• 6:15
  And I literally had people come in for disability who wanted to be on disability for Massachusetts and uh young, you know, in their 20s or whatever, and and I'm I'm gonna exaggerate this, but let's say you know they had had a broken left hand, you know, a year ago.
• 6:30
  Yeah, and uh they want to be in disability, you know, the hand hurts and whatever, it may not be the same as it was, but it's like well, what did you do before?
• 6:37
  Well, I was a I don't know, fill in the blank, you know, uh interior decorator.
• 6:44
  Well, is there anything stopping you from doing that now?
• 6:47
  It's like I mean, you know, you work on a computer or you know, whatever you you do a lot of things with your thoughts, use the other hand to write with.
• 6:54
  It's like, well, no.
• 6:55
  So I would write my disability exams, you know, according to I would write exactly what they had wrong with them, you know, a lot of them 100%.
• 7:02
  I mean, let's be frank.
• 7:04
  You know, some things happen and they don't unhappen.
• 7:06
  So it could be that the you know, left hand wouldn't look the same.
• 7:09
  I'm just making this up.
• 7:11
  But I'd say, well, look, the left hand is has this mild deformity, whatever, but the person can do X, Y, and Z in the room.
• 7:17
  You know, she was able to do this, this, this, and this, and this, you know, her cognition's normal, this is normal, that's normal.
• 7:22
  So rather than look at the glass half empty, I would try to see how full it was.
• 7:26
  Maybe it's not, you know, it was maybe five percent empty, but 95% full.
• 7:30
  And, you know, and the funny thing is that the state of, you know, of Massachusetts, uh, you know, they wound up uh eventually uh peeling me off as one of the physicians doing disability exams because I had a practice of you know doing that.
• 7:47
  They said we just want to hear the disabilities.
• 7:49
  We don't want to hear any any positive stuff.
• 7:52
  And um, but before that it happened, I was still doing these exams, and I had people that I, you know, just didn't think had any disability at all.
• 7:58
  It might have been, you know, they had a scratch in their eye at one point, but it's all better.
• 8:02
  Yeah, I mean they came in and thanked me.
• 8:04
  They said, Thank you, Dr.
• 8:05
  Bach, for getting me my disability.
• 8:06
  I'm like, oh, you're welcome.
• 8:09
  Like in my view, it had I this is somebody I thought that never would get it.
• 8:13
  But the state was in the business of continuing the disability because in in large part, you know, the people who have those jobs at the state, they want to have work, and they are, you know, I mean, this is my formulation.
• 8:25
  I can't say this for the fact, but you know, their business is providing benefits.
• 8:29
  And if they stop providing benefits, then they are not needed in their own jobs.
• 8:33
  So it's kind of a funny thing, but you know, getting back, you know, enough about me.
• 8:37
  Let's get back to you.
• 8:38
  You know, what was the kind of spark and motivation that you know changed your mind and your worldview?
• 8:44
  Uh that I wanted to come off of benefits.
• 8:47
  Um, just kind of when I was doing it one, so I I definitely think the benefits were effective in the beginning.
• 8:55
  There was a period of time um when I was finally out of my series of incessant hospitalizations from 19 to 22, where I definitely need to ease back into my community responsibilities.
• 9:07
  Um, but because of the benefits and my lack of real aspirations at that point in time, that just meant going to a day program and living in a group home and getting sober.
• 9:16
  Um, the real thing that kind of pushed me out of that mold was, you know, I was very, I was 100% of the mindset that like I'm just gonna ride these disability benefits till the day I die.
• 9:28
  I mean, I'm on the subsidy list, I'm on the section eight list, I'll get those.
• 9:32
  Um, and you know, it'll be a very low-key life.
• 9:34
  And like I rationalized this out in my head, like that was fine.
• 9:38
  I was okay, um, not really accomplishing much and just kind of going to a day program and smoking cigarettes and just hanging out forever.
• 9:46
  And um eventually, kind of being at a day program with 20, 30 other people who went there on a daily basis who were in their 40s, 50s, and 60s who were doing that.
• 9:56
  Eventually, I was like, I don't think I can do this forever.
• 9:59
  Like this doesn't
• 10:00
  Don't feel meaningful to my dignity as a human being.
• 10:05
  And I mean, I didn't initially think like I'm going to completely get off benefits, but I thought like I have to do more with my life.
• 10:12
  So I got a part-time job and I started going back to school.
• 10:15
  And it was just kind of like I have to kind of feel things out.
• 10:18
  And the really kind of big moment that completely got me off my benefits was after uh being about two years sober and you know, working a part-time job and dabbling with school for a while, I eventually got a job mentoring other young adults with mental health issues and drug addictions.
• 10:36
  And as that happened, uh, that was around 2006.
• 10:41
  Um, peer support jobs for for mental health peer support became more prevalent.
• 10:45
  So when I first started that PM1 term position, it was kind of the only one in the area.
• 10:50
  But after doing it for a year, there was all of a sudden a career ladder, and I got a better job in that field.
• 10:55
  And it was the meaning and value I got out of that job, like how it enhanced my life.
• 11:03
  Um was enough for me to be like, okay, I think I'm willing to kind of work full-time now and completely get off of these benefits, because all of a sudden I had more value, you know, taking the risk and being self-sufficient because of the meaning I got from doing peer support full-time than just kind of the low-key, low stress, low um potential for failure of just being on benefits forever.
• 11:31
  Um, so the the big hinging moment for me being able to become self-sufficient was the meaning I back and value I got out of out of that work in that career.
• 11:40
  Um I was willing to take that leap.
• 11:42
  Yeah.
• 11:42
  So how did how did things work out at home?
• 11:45
  I know that you spend some time at home.
• 11:47
  And I guess I have a second question about I don't know, we'll we'll just put one, pick one of these two, and we'll come back to the other one.
• 11:53
  So um the other question is kind of about the marijuana.
• 11:56
  What were your kind of directives and what was you know taught about marijuana, either in the schools or amongst your peers or whatever?
• 12:03
  And when you're talking about being addicted to marijuana, people a lot of people think that is not addictive.
• 12:08
  You know, it's a simple, easy, easy substance, you know, it's it's just like food and air and water and marijuana, all things they know people need.
• 12:15
  They found a you know, a thousand uses and whatever for marijuana.
• 12:18
  Yeah, in the legalization ramp up in Massachusetts, you know, we kept hearing about how marijuana, you know, saves glaucoma, it helps anxiety, you know, cleans your toilet, uh, you know, brings in the newspaper, um, you know, grows hair in your head.
• 12:32
  Uh you know, everything good about it.
• 12:34
  And I think, you know, obviously it was oversold.
• 12:37
  Alex Barrenson is a mystery writer and uh kind of a public health critic in a way.
• 12:44
  Uh, he has, I think, a book or at least uh series of articles about some of the you know non-explained dangers of marijuana.
• 12:52
  And you know, I feel at the very least it takes away ambition.
• 12:55
  You know, and I was wondering, you know, we could do pick we either one, talk about your family and your home situation.
• 13:02
  Maybe we'll come back to the later, but maybe stick on the marijuana one.
• 13:04
  What was your you know anticipation from about marijuana?
• 13:07
  What was the wonderful about it?
• 13:09
  And do you do you think that it's a trap in any ways?
• 13:13
  So you you you mentioned it when you were talking, how it helps with anxiety.
• 13:17
  Um, I had a severe uh anxiety phobia disorder when I was a teenager to the point where I was taken out of public school in eighth grade.
• 13:26
  I finished junior high home tutoring and then was transitioned back into school into a private school in ninth grade because the public school system wasn't working for me.
• 13:36
  And um marijuana made it so I could be around other people and not be completely freaking out internally.
• 13:44
  But like where initially marijuana was something that helped me be social with my peers.
• 13:50
  Within a month of the first time I smoked pot, it became abusive.
• 13:53
  It became me doing it by myself for theft every night.
• 13:57
  And that's kind of the path I was on from about 16 to 19.
• 14:03
  And um, you know, it was starting to cause problems with me in my relationships with my family.
• 14:09
  Um, I was starting to get involved with more shady people and more shady environments and circumstances to the point where I was arrested multiple times.
• 14:17
  And I didn't care about any of these things.
• 14:19
  It was definitely sending me in the wrong direction.
• 14:21
  And then around a couple weeks before I turned 18 uh in 2001, the marijuana stopped getting me high, like kind of like a mellowing uh effect and started making me psychotic.
• 14:36
  And every time I smoked marijuana from that point in time onward, I immediately had a psychotic episode.
• 14:42
  And I was smoking marijuana daily and enjoying my psychotic episodes, and that created even more problems for me legally with my family, all sorts of other issues.
• 14:52
  Um, the second time I was committed to a psych hospital, I was actually sent to a forensic unit first, and it was either jail or a psych hospital.
• 14:59
  And they said he's too psychotic to go to jail, which is obviously a blessing.
• 15:03
  I wouldn't have wanted to go to jail, but there was a point in time where marijuana stopped being just a fun social drug.
• 15:09
  And every time I did it, I was immediately launched into this like psychotic experience where my brain was misinterpreting what was going on in the environment around me as if it was communicating with me.
• 15:20
  Everything was communicating with me, and it was incredibly overwhelming.
• 15:23
  And then I started liking it.
• 15:25
  And then my parents were trying me to get off it.
• 15:27
  The legal system was trying to get me off it, and I was fighting that.
• 15:30
  It just led to all sorts of difficulties.
• 15:32
  So it was definitely not like a a cure-all safe drug.
• 15:37
  It it really was very uh it totally booted me out of all my life plans.
• 15:42
  I was literally gonna uh start going to Emerson College.
• 15:45
  And the first week of the first semester, it just the psychosis got so overwhelming, it was just like three years of hospitalizations and it completely knocked me off the path I had for my life.
• 15:55
  Um luckily I've been able to reset since then.
• 15:58
  But so how did you literally afford the drug?
• 16:03
  I mean, where you came from.
• 16:06
  I I've been working since I was 16.
• 16:08
  So I pretty much always had a job.
• 16:09
  And that was like my primary thing when I spent my money on cigarettes, gasoline, and marijuana.
• 16:15
  So here's a silly question.
• 16:17
  Uh, did your parents at any point charge you rent?
• 16:20
  Uh no.
• 16:22
  No.
• 16:23
  And I didn't always even live with them.
• 16:25
  When I was in high school, my last year of high school, I spent half of my time living with my girlfriend's family.
• 16:30
  So, but whenever I was with my parents now.
• 16:32
  And I I was kind of, they kicked me out when I was 19.
• 16:36
  And they were nice enough to pay a family friend to let me board there.
• 16:40
  And within I pretty much dropped out of school that term.
• 16:43
  I was just smoking weed in her yard and playing with her dogs.
• 16:46
  And I'd say within three weeks to a month of that, after my parents kicked me out and didn't want to talk with me, I was arrested for the third time.
• 16:54
  And that got me on probation, which sent me to my first commitment.
• 16:57
  And then, you know, for the next three years from 19 to 22, I wasn't really in the community.
• 17:02
  I was just probably 20 of those months I was hospitalized and small increments of being in the community.
• 17:10
  Um, and then eventually in a group home after after all that ended, where I was able to kind of clean up my life and get on a better path.
• 17:17
  Okay, so we're gonna take a short break and uh we're gonna be right back with Matthew McQuay.
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• 19:28
  So we're back for our second segment with Matthew McQuaid.
• 19:32
  And he is an author at Madden America.
• 19:35
  I can't remember the whole title, but it uh is basically how he got his life back from the disability trap.
• 19:41
  And I do think there is a valid disability trap.
• 19:45
  I I can tell you again, this is about Matthew, but uh I from the other side I've had my own uh brush ups.
• 19:52
  And frankly, my medical career was was um wrongly um suspended.
• 20:00
  On what was an anger from a man who thought his disability was going to be taken away by me.
• 20:06
  So the anecdote goes, I've written about this elsewhere, people can find it.
• 20:09
  I think I write about it in my substack in a piece called Breaking Bad Medicine.
• 20:15
  And this was a guy who's 10 years at the time, and he's since passed away from narcotic overdose, which is sad in and of itself.
• 20:22
  We didn't follow through on this treatment came to me for narcotic detox via suboxone.
• 20:27
  You know, I only saw him this one time.
• 20:28
  So we never undertook the the um Suboxone uh detox pathway, but he was on heroin and he was uh he had was disabled from uh a big you know manufacturing company of the largest in the region and had had a significant job there.
• 20:44
  He wasn't running the place, but he had a real job.
• 20:47
  And somewhere along the line he got in back pain and then a couple surgeries, whatever, but he recovered from those, but he was on disability.
• 20:53
  He started liking the disability, and maybe you know, he started doing drugs, I don't know, which point before or after or during.
• 20:59
  And he was at this point on heroin.
• 21:01
  Um, but he was doing odd jobs, he was doing fences, and he was selling heroin and he was fixing up his mom's house and running another property.
• 21:09
  So he was not an incompetent man.
• 21:12
  And um, you know, I I he wanted to kind of clean up his life um with uh, you know, get off the heroin, whatnot, and also save money because he's spending 250 dollars, whatever, 150, 200 a day on the habit.
• 21:28
  And since he wasn't working, you know, it's kind of amazing thing that a lot of my drug addicts were on disability.
• 21:33
  They always, you know, managed to do enough able things, um, despite their disabilities, they had capabilities to get enough money for drugs.
• 21:41
  So that's that's kind of one funny or odd thing about it.
• 21:44
  And so we were talking about it.
• 21:46
  I said, look, I can get you off the one drug, put you on the other drug temporizing.
• 21:50
  But if you want to stay away from drugs, you need to have kind of a positive impetus in your life.
• 21:54
  You need to have that internal flame going and feel good about yourself.
• 21:58
  And right now, it's kind of a game of hide and seek where you're hiding in a way.
• 22:03
  Um, and not to say anybody seeking you out, but in a way, you know, you I could tell from talking with them, he was you know a little bit embarrassed about the whole situation.
• 22:12
  And if you want to look in the mirror and see somebody that you like looking back at you, you have to be doing things that are positive, informative, and you, you know, in a sense, I think we all understand good and bad and right and wrong, all kind of stuff.
• 22:25
  Anyway, I left it there, and you know, I had some other patients to see he had to do a urine specimen, blah, blah, blah, you know, blood tests, whatever.
• 22:31
  So I came back, you know, I was kind of roaming by you know, his open door, and he called me in, and he was kind of in tears.
• 22:38
  And uh, you know, he's a big guy, he's like, you know, six foot three and 300 pounds, and you know, you don't usually see that.
• 22:43
  And he said, you know, Dr.
• 22:46
  Bach, you're right.
• 22:47
  I said, Well, I'm always right, but but but specifically about what in this case.
• 22:51
  And he said, I'm lazy.
• 22:54
  Uh, he's lazy.
• 22:55
  And and I'm like, what do you what do you mean?
• 22:57
  He says, you know, I I you're right about what I'm doing.
• 23:01
  I'm lazy, I don't want to go back.
• 23:03
  I it's easy getting the money and doing stuff and and you know, being drugged, whatever.
• 23:08
  And I, you know, I I am capable, blah, blah, blah.
• 23:11
  You know, the back is pain is not that bad anymore.
• 23:13
  I'm doing all this stuff.
• 23:14
  You're you hit it right on the nail on the head.
• 23:16
  I said, Well, you know what?
• 23:17
  That's incredible.
• 23:18
  You know, uh, he says, but you know, I don't I don't want you to, you know, ta tattle on my disability.
• 23:25
  I said, that's not my job.
• 23:26
  You know, I'm not my job's not that.
• 23:28
  You know, I I don't work with them, I'm working for you, I'm your agent, you know, it's just kind of like a lawyer, client, you know, doctor patient relationship.
• 23:37
  And you know, we'll get you back on the straight and narrow.
• 23:40
  And I never saw him again.
• 23:41
  And it was an odd thing because he had he'd kind of broken down emotionally, and then three months later, uh, he sent in this absurd claim to the state and exaggerated, you know, everything.
• 23:50
  I had touched him in the belly because he was overweight.
• 23:52
  I said, You got to lose weight.
• 23:54
  He he said I punched him, you know, that kind of thing.
• 23:55
  Just like everything was a grandized.
• 23:57
  I don't know what happened to him in the meanwhile that he turned against, but he never showed up for the treatment.
• 24:02
  And that letter became the the kind of the the force behind, you know, everybody looking at my treatment program, and I didn't think narcotic addiction was a disease, and that put me kind of outside what the modern, you know, wrong thinking is about the whole thing.
• 24:18
  But a lot of it has to, you know, tied in.
• 24:20
  My basic theory is that you know, we are human souls and we have human needs, and we do best when we kind of, you know, you could put in a religious concept, you know, glorify God, but even outside of religious concept, you know, we have that kind of divinity within us.
• 24:38
  We have this sense of who we should be and what we should do best.
• 24:42
  And when we veer from that, we are miserable.
• 24:44
  Anyway, that's a long preface.
• 24:46
  I apologize for that.
• 24:47
  Um, but I'm wondering, you know, how uh how you felt then, you know, in kind of the marijuana fog, have you been back?
• 24:56
  Um you know, where where does that place you and what's kind of the kind of thing that pushing you forward and and how do you impart that to other people in your you know, erstwhile similar situation of what you had been then and how you can get out.
• 25:11
  Can you be a little clearer?
• 25:12
  I'm sure I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
• 25:13
  Well, the question is, you know, what's the thing that kind of motivates you day to day today that keeps you from going back from some of the previous habits or or activities and whatnot?
• 25:23
  And and what's the kind of thing you impart to the people that you deal with?
• 25:28
  Oh basically what keeps me sober.
• 25:31
  Is that the question?
• 25:34
  Sure.
• 25:34
  Or what's what's the part that kind of you know, when you when you do this kind of people?
• 25:40
  Well, what you you are what what is it you're doing right now?
• 25:42
  You so talking about in your your article, you're talking about peer management, and you're I assume helping others in this similar situation.
• 25:49
  Am I wrong?
• 25:50
  Yeah, yeah.
• 25:51
  So um I do peer counseling, I do that full-time now.
• 25:55
  Um, the people I work with have either mental health issues or drug addictions or both.
• 26:00
  Um, oh, I love my clients, I love working with my clients, I love seeing them.
• 26:05
  Um, one of the things that is the most uh I don't know what words he is, maybe disenfranchising about the whole experience is that I think all of them, except for one, is on benefits and is very much into protecting their benefits, and that's one of the things that I definitely discourages me a little, is that the people who I work with end up getting on these entitlements and just end up limiting their lives for it.
• 26:32
  Uh, and I see very few people getting out of that.
• 26:35
  But um one of my other I have one client who isn't on benefits now and he's young and he was thinking of signing up, and I'm like, don't do it.
• 26:42
  Just become self-sufficient right now.
• 26:44
  You don't have a lot of bills.
• 26:45
  You're 19, you don't have to worry about it.
• 26:46
  Don't get it on the benefits, trust me, because you're gonna get stuck and you're not gonna get off.
• 26:50
  Um, but it just like even helping people in the smallest way, just taking any step towards recovery.
• 26:56
  Um, because I mean, unfortunately, I see one of the things that can happen in the traditional system is a lot of people can fall into it for that safety net and just kind of lay there and be like, okay.
• 27:06
  And I really like helping people take any steps um to to better themselves.
• 27:12
  Um, I I I have utilized 12-step programs for my personal sobriety and recovery, and I've kind of branched out with those steps into a place that like it's my responsibility to be consistently working on myself.
• 27:27
  Um, and when I do become aware of my own faults, going back and trying to fix those up, and I find that in my work, I can kind of apply those principles with the people I work with, even in the smallest areas.
• 27:38
  It doesn't have to be like used things like getting a job and going back to school and becoming self-sufficient.
• 27:43
  It's just like one person I'm working with is figuring out how to manage food better in relation to diabetes.
• 27:48
  Any any steps for just like fixing things up on even the smallest levels is is very rewarding for me to help people with.
• 27:56
  Um I get that out of my employment, which I love.
• 27:59
  Yeah.
• 28:00
  And then I get to also several things.
• 28:03
  So there's me and there's one other peer worker where I worked, and we also get to be an example to the other traditional staff members that like you know, people can take steps.
• 28:13
  Because sometimes the people we're serving don't always take those steps.
• 28:16
  So we can be there and be like, well, we both did it, and then it just it keeps the hope alive.
• 28:21
  Yeah.
• 28:21
  There was something in your article that really struck me.
• 28:23
  You said take that risk.
• 28:25
  And you know, they we live in a uh a time where there's a term called harm reduction.
• 28:30
  This is something I also encountered in my uh Suboxone treatment.
• 28:34
  I had a four-month tapering program, and I wanted people to get two sobriety.
• 28:38
  And that is sort of like I implied before, frowned upon because there's this disease model that narcotic addiction is a disease, and taking away the you know, replacement narcotic methods, methadone or suboxone is like taking diabetes away from a type one diabetic.
• 28:53
  Yeah.
• 28:53
  And I don't, I don't take, I don't see it that way.
• 28:56
  We we stop people with alcoholism from their drug all the time.
• 29:00
  We don't give them, you know, if they have a whiskey problem, we don't give them replacement vodka.
• 29:05
  And and and you know, and if if you're tiger woods, you know, with a sex problem, we don't give you, you know, a call girl, you know, three times a week and uh, you know, go to the the Lotus Spa, wherever, you know, we we don't do that.
• 29:18
  We don't do that for your gambler, we don't give you a bunch of chips and you know, say we just want you to go to Mohegan's son, you know, three times a week instead of eight.
• 29:26
  You know, it's like we don't do that for any other problem that's an addiction.
• 29:30
  Um, but you know, what happens?
• 29:33
  What I've heard uh from the people from the other treatment people that these people were seeing is that they were told to stay on the drug because they don't want to take a risk of you know getting re addicted and they might overdose and die.
• 29:48
  So I'm wondering whether there's any pushback for your concept, you know, amongst the state.
• 29:53
  I assume you have some uh kind of state employer um, you know, employment.
• 30:00
  What's the what's the mindset there?
• 30:02
  And what about take the risk and what do you recommend for that?
• 30:06
  Well, so when I originally wrote the article, um, I actually wrote the entire article to be metaphorically and applicable to pretty much anybody who gets into a place of complacency where there's work that can be done.
• 30:20
  Um, and it got a little caught up in the editing process.
• 30:24
  Um, but I mean my original goal with the article, which got altered a little through the editing process was that like pretty much everybody in this world can start settling for things at some point in time that they ultimately might not even be enjoying to the most capacity or might not be completely beneficial.
• 30:42
  And I wanted it using the example of myself coming off of disability benefits, kind of implying to people like who take a personal disability in themselves to protect their comfort when they should probably be working on something to bettering themselves.
• 31:01
  Um so when I when I wrote that original take the risk thing, it was kind of like I just see so many people just kind of getting stuck in these ruts and you know, kind of because it's enough because it's getting them by because it's getting them what they need, even if it's not 100% fulfilling, just being okay with that.
• 31:21
  And I just kind of want to um, I was kind of in a space myself where I'm just kind of branching out and trying to you know better completely, and I just wanted to imply that to the article.
• 31:32
  Right.
• 31:32
  Well, it does take work, I mean, literally and figuratively.
• 31:35
  Yeah, there's a whole panoply of benefits that people have.
• 31:39
  You know, again, amongst my you know, cohort of patients that I was seeing, not just the drug patient, but others in general, they get you know, basically they get Mass Health, which is state Medicaid benefits, and they get free insurances, no deductible, no co-payment.
• 31:53
  But better than most of your insurance is uh pretty much accepted universally.
• 31:58
  There might be some differential places you can't, you know, you may not get top tier, whatever, but for the most part, that that takes you anywhere.
• 32:06
  Um then section eight housing means you're paying, you know, somewhere between zero and you know, like hundred or two hundred dollars a month for apartments that probably cost you know a couple thousand or something like that or more.
• 32:19
  And then there's there's um sometimes a disability payment, whether it's state disability or federal SSI or SSDI, where you get them a stipend check for a thousand or two thousand, whatever a month.
• 32:31
  Um and then uh am I missing any?
• 32:33
  Um, yeah, food stamps.
• 32:35
  Yeah, um, and so you're getting you know free food, whatever.
• 32:38
  I mean, the only thing that's not free is maybe a haircut and your drug.
• 32:41
  Um, so the Cato Institute had a study on this probably about 15 years ago.
• 32:46
  So the numbers have probably changed, but at the time, you know, probably in today's dollars, maybe 80,000.
• 32:52
  Uh in you in order to leave all that, and the fact that you're you're not having to pay for child care, you're not having to pay for um, you know, transportation one.
• 33:03
  If you do get a job, it has to be like an 80,000, 90,000 year job for you to lose all those things before you can get health benefits and you know, that amount of food, that amount of rent, uh, and and plus have to pay, you know, transportation and so forth, and get a you know, dress up and and you know, so forth.
• 33:21
  There's a lot of stuff you have to do.
• 33:23
  So it's not the switchover part, you know, trains when they go from place to other, they have a little track and they just move over, they go on the next track.
• 33:30
  Yeah, but this is more like you know, jumping from the the parking lot to the third floor of a building.
• 33:36
  It's a it's a tough thing, and people uh you know don't have a really a gradual pathway.
• 33:41
  Um they just cut you off.
• 33:44
  This is a slight transition, but I know I know with the social security, it's like there's an extended period of eligibility where like every month you're under the SGA, you get it, every month you're over the SGA, you don't get it, and then once that three year period's over, second you're over the SGA, it's done.
• 34:00
  Um, and I know from my experience when I hit that point, and from other people I've met who've had the risk there, it usually doesn't even just come with the fact that okay, you're not getting benefits now.
• 34:09
  It's like Social Security is like we're dealing with so many millions of people, we dropped the ball, we should have taken it away from you months or years ago, and you owe us this much.
• 34:17
  I had a client, I think it was last year or a year and a half ago, who who hit that exact spot where they were like, okay, you you went over your flag amounts and hit the SGA amount, like 2022, you owe us 30,000.
• 34:29
  And it was like, whoa, because it's not like okay, he's gonna be responsible for working more and paying more of his bills.
• 34:35
  He also owes the government 30,000 now.
• 34:38
  And that's just like frightening.
• 34:41
  I mean, it's that's a that's a nightmare for somebody who's already, you know, on a lower financial level that they need those benefits now.
• 34:48
  They owe this massive amount of money to the government.
• 34:50
  And I know when I came off of benefits in 2008, it wasn't like, okay, you're done with the benefits now.
• 34:56
  It was like, okay, we messed up, we should have taken away from you a long time ago.
• 35:01
  Luckily, I realized I was off my benefits before they did.
• 35:04
  I called them up.
• 35:05
  I'm like, you're supposed to stop sending me benefits, so like this is not how we work.
• 35:08
  So I said, stop direct depositing it, send me paper checks, and they did that.
• 35:12
  And then when they caught up nine months later, they were like, you owe us this many thousands of dollars.
• 35:17
  And I went to the social security office and I gave them a stack of checks, and they're like, you still owe us three grand.
• 35:22
  So it's not just like, okay, now you hit the line, you don't get benefits.
• 35:25
  They're so behind the ball that people owe them a lot of money.
• 35:29
  I heard this is a rumor, I never met this person, but I heard from a social worker that there was one client who it took them like a decade to realize they should have stopped the benefits.
• 35:37
  The person owed them like 120,000.
• 35:41
  Um, I had a friend who had a similar issue, and luckily he went to Social Security and complained, and they gave him an exemption.
• 35:47
  That would have been several thousand dollars.
• 35:49
  But I mean, it's not just like, okay, you're losing the benefits now.
• 35:52
  They're they're so behind the ball that consistently people end up owing them these massive sums as well, which is impossible for people who are already so poor that they need a benefits at one point in time, just squeaking above the benefit amount.
• 36:05
  When I came off of benefits in 2008-2009, making 28,000 a year was enough to get me off the benefits.
• 36:14
  So I wasn't making a ton of money.
• 36:15
  Now I owe them $3,000 on top of that.
• 36:18
  Um, and now I don't have a subsidy anymore, so I have to pay for the apartment and all of my bills and my health insurance and everything, and I owe them money.
• 36:25
  It was frightening.
• 36:27
  Um, and I've seen that happen to other people as well.
• 36:29
  I think I think it's fairly common.
• 36:32
  All right, so we're gonna take another break.
• 36:34
  Um, this is uh America Pulse Radio, always a beat ahead.
• 36:38
  Uh, stick with us for our next segment with Matthew McQuaid.
• 36:41
  Uh thank you.
• 36:42
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• 38:26
  So we're back for our third and final segment.
• 38:28
  This is America Hallow Pulse Radio.
• 38:30
  I'm Dr.
• 38:30
  Randy Bach.
• 38:31
  I'm trying to uh bring truth to medical situations and social ones in a sense.
• 38:37
  I've been spotlight in today's discussion is about uh disability.
• 38:41
  And you know, the fact that kind of disability payments can be disabling uh in and of themselves in a sense, they can be immobilizing.
• 38:50
  Um and I'm here with Matthew McQuaid and I'm very much in his debt for being with us today.
• 38:55
  Uh he's an author author of an article in Madden America.
• 38:59
  Um, Matthew, I'm just curious, you know, how how many other people can follow in your uh footsteps?
• 39:07
  I mean, do you have say underlying I don't I don't want to use misuse the term, but do you have underlying you know psychological or psychiatric pathology um issues and whatnot?
• 39:18
  Um what are the the kind of things that people um get caught up with on a diagnosis basis or a medication basis?
• 39:26
  Uh potentially, I'll just and I can I'm sorry for this, but this is one little side note.
• 39:31
  You know, I've treated patients for decades on my medical practice.
• 39:34
  I had a guy, and he was not a hugely bright man.
• 39:38
  He lived with his mom, um, but he was doing small tasks, um, you know, kind of manual labor stuff.
• 39:45
  And one day I think he had like a manic depressor or some kind of psychotic break, but he was already in his 50s, I believe.
• 39:52
  Uh, and then he wound up getting into the psychiatric hospital and came back and he was never the same.
• 39:59
  He was on
• 40:00
  Huge doses of psychotropic uh drugs, I assume major tranquilizers like uh for schizophrenia and whatnot.
• 40:07
  And he had been given some type of schizo-effective diagnosis.
• 40:10
  And you know, he had like literally spittle coming down the side of his face, his uh whole uh demeanor was was really numbed and slowed, and he looked drugged in a sense.
• 40:20
  And um, you know, he uh you know was not the same person.
• 40:25
  Now that that's an extreme example.
• 40:27
  Um, but what what are what's the kind of the interface between the psychiatric world, the diagnosis world, and the working world?
• 40:34
  And how do you navigate those if there's some you know possibility you might have you know psychotic break or whatever?
• 40:39
  I mean, what are those things for you and how do they play out, say, for your uh people you come into contact with and what do you think about the diagnosis and/or the treatments?
• 40:49
  Um so I would definitely say that I don't think having symptoms uh excludes people from being self-sufficient on any level.
• 40:57
  Um I've lucked been lucky enough in the work I've done with peer support to get to work for a couple agencies that were peer support agencies where everybody had diagnosable experiences, and they were all 100% capable and not inhibited really on any level that would prevent them from taking care of themselves or anything like that.
• 41:14
  Um, me personally, from the point when I was around 19 years old when I started having those psychotic experiences off of marijuana, that became permanent and that has never gone away.
• 41:25
  And when people ask me to describe that experience, I basically say at when the symptoms are lightest on a daily basis, I do not know what reality is, and I live on several realities on a daily basis.
• 41:38
  Um sometimes for extended periods of time, sometimes whole days in a row, I will be in what I call normal mortal everyday reality that I assume everybody else is living in, and very consistently I will be in realities that are probably not real, and that's constant and has been constant since I was 19.
• 41:55
  But that does not prevent me from working full-time and taking care of myself and functioning within the community.
• 42:01
  Um I'm pretty good at coping with things.
• 42:04
  I'm pretty good at being aware when I'm in those states and dealing with them.
• 42:08
  And then I mean, to be completely honest with you, some of them are very enjoyable, and I wouldn't want to throw them away.
• 42:13
  And I think they enhance my character and my life and my experiences.
• 42:17
  Um, some of them are completely spiritual experiences for me.
• 42:20
  Um, they enhance my moral capabilities.
• 42:23
  Um, and I would not want to throw them away, or even um say they were something I would want to be medicated or diagnosed for.
• 42:30
  And I just think the psychiatric industry doesn't understand all of them completely.
• 42:35
  Um, but some of the psychotic experiences and the places where my mind takes me are definitely things that I would rather not have to deal with that the medication helps with, and that I like to talk to my therapist and people with stuff like that to figure out ways to cope with.
• 42:49
  Um, but that's just the way it goes.
• 42:53
  So to those, I mean, you know, if we ever go on an airplane or a train or whatever, you don't necessarily want your pilot or conductor uh to be having a psychotic episode, you know, while he's driving that thing.
• 43:05
  Yeah, or your bus, nor your bus driver, nor frankly, you know not to fly any plants.
• 43:09
  Yeah, or or your policeman or whatever.
• 43:11
  You don't want a psychotic policeman.
• 43:13
  Yeah.
• 43:14
  Luckily, I'm in a field that allows me to have these experiences and it doesn't end up being a hindrance.
• 43:20
  So what what's what's the situation?
• 43:21
  I mean, does it happen kind of in your spare time or your downtime, whatever?
• 43:25
  And is it hallucinatory?
• 43:26
  I mean, you see uh, you know, little uh jumping frogs in front of you, or they see the world ripple, or do you try to get in your own mind, or what's what's the deal?
• 43:35
  Uh it's predominantly a perspective thing.
• 43:39
  Um sometimes my brain just interprets things happening around me as if they're communicative to me.
• 43:47
  Um sometimes it's conspiratorial.
• 43:50
  My brain will interpret um other people's conversations are veiled conversations about me.
• 43:59
  Um people to my brain will convince me that people can hear my thought patterns, uh film, things like that.
• 44:07
  Um different stuff like that.
• 44:10
  I know I mean, I have had visual and auditory hallucinations, they're not predominantly what goes on.
• 44:15
  It's usually my brain misinterpreting what's going on outside of me.
• 44:19
  And a lot of the time, um, I can kind of work my way through those things realizing, oh, this is a symptom.
• 44:26
  This is not real, and that helps me not get too involved in it.
• 44:30
  Um the two things that kind of cause everything to escalate are um the amount of stress I'm under in relation to the experience.
• 44:40
  Um the amount of stress I'm under will is is definitely connected with how much I can kind of extricate myself from the belief that the symptoms are actually real.
• 44:53
  Um, the more I believe that people are lying to me or something like that, the harder it is to keep the stress down and cope and stay kind of a witness to the symptoms as opposed to kind of being driven by them.
• 45:05
  Um, but they don't really prevent me from functioning on any level.
• 45:10
  So the people that you are seeing, what are the what's the predominant diagnoses and how fixed are those diagnoses?
• 45:16
  I mean, I you know, I I'm kind of quizzical or puzzled or on the fence about something like ADHD.
• 45:23
  I'm old enough uh to have lived in a world where there was no ADHD.
• 45:27
  There was no ADD.
• 45:28
  Um it was really there with the word autism was not used either.
• 45:33
  Um and there was far, far, far less addiction.
• 45:37
  You know, a lot of the, I mean, frankly, you know, it's almost what's called now the classic era of um narcotic addiction from the 20s to the 70s or so, there was basically almost zero heroin addiction in the entire country.
• 45:51
  And so that's that's kind of informs my childhood whatnot.
• 45:55
  Um, and we've seen everything else grow in the meanwhile.
• 45:58
  There's more homelessness, there's more anxiety, there's more uh narcotic addiction.
• 46:02
  Now there's sexual dysmorphia, um, there's ADHD, and we are we also see this kind of autism, boom.
• 46:08
  But I I'm a little bit, you know, I don't think there's been that much more increase in severe autism, but a lot of more labels come around that we've had this mental health parody wherein, you know, we we see and treat a lot more people for a lot more things than we ever did before.
• 46:24
  Um, I'm just wondering what are the kind of things that get in this rut, and can you differentiate people who might get out versus not?
• 46:30
  I mean, again, this is me, um, but I I think you know, true schizophrenia is a very is a genuine disability.
• 46:38
  You know, I think uh people you know who have had um that uh it you know they can be medicated, but it's uh kind of a chronic recurring thing.
• 46:47
  Somebody I don't want, you know, driving my bus and whatnot.
• 46:50
  Um, but in the realm of the other things, I I think they're very much manageable problems oftentimes, especially the way autism's been kind of reconfigured into Asperger's and the spectrum, all this kind of stuff away from you know what is classically the severe autistic anyway.
• 47:04
  So that's a complicated question.
• 47:05
  So to kind of parse it down a little bit.
• 47:08
  Um, what are the kind of diagnoses attached to the people that you encounter?
• 47:12
  And uh can you make any kind of assessment based on what those things are, how well people might do thereafter?
• 47:19
  So being a peer worker, I try to stay away from diagnoses, even when supervisors and social workers and people above me have tried to get me to read literature and become more familiar with diagnoses and things like that.
• 47:31
  It's something I try to purposely stay away from.
• 47:34
  I get more involved in what the individuals I'm working with are actually experiencing and what they want in relation to those experiences.
• 47:42
  Um do they want to try to grow in relation to those?
• 47:45
  Are these things they value, like where are the roadblocks, how do we navigate those?
• 47:50
  I try not to get uh involved in a lot of the aspects that the traditional mental health system uses because I don't I don't know, that's just not how I work.
• 48:00
  I don't necessarily always find it valid, I guess, is the way to put it.
• 48:03
  Um, I don't like diagnosis for myself.
• 48:06
  Um, I think they can be limiting.
• 48:08
  Um, I think that from my experience, sometimes people, the the traditional mental health industry will kind of be trying to treat a diagnosis or a symptom or get rid of it.
• 48:20
  And some of the clients might not want that.
• 48:22
  They just might want the severity tapered down.
• 48:25
  I had a manic episode in October that lasted through November that sent me to the hospital for the first time since 2009 and actually led me to write that article uh out of some ideas.
• 48:34
  I had my medic episode, and I got a lot out of that manic episode.
• 48:37
  I enjoyed it.
• 48:38
  I'm happy I went through it.
• 48:40
  I wouldn't have wanted to pass it up.
• 48:41
  The worst part of the experience was how restrictive the psych unit was.
• 48:44
  And when I got out of the unit, my mom was like, Well, what can we do to make it easier the next time?
• 48:48
  I said, figure out how to let me go through my manic episode in the community because I would have been fine.
• 48:53
  I just would have needed to take work off for a little bit.
• 48:56
  Um and the hospital was the worst part.
• 48:58
  The the services the traditional mental health system offered me was the worst part.
• 49:02
  So I don't like to get involved in diagnoses.
• 49:05
  Um, I don't necessarily want to throw away all my diagnosable experiences.
• 49:09
  Some of them I find them completely valuable.
• 49:11
  Um I was talking to one of my clients a few weeks ago about how he's been kind of cycling and hitting crisis is more common than not lately, and how he wished he could go into the hospital for three or four days just to de-stress, and then they would let him out and he could deal with his symptoms in the community where it would be most productive.
• 49:28
  And the worst part of the the few crises he's had in the last year is that when he did go to the hospital for support, the second he didn't need their support anymore, they were like, No, we don't trust you.
• 49:38
  We're holding you against your will now.
• 49:41
  Um so I mean, I wouldn't even say all the things I would reach out to treatment for so that treatment can kind of help me get through it, would necessarily be things I want to throw away.
• 49:53
  It's just sometimes it's too intense, sometimes they need a little help.
• 49:56
  I don't, it's not like an all-or-nothing thing, like all the mental illness.
• 50:00
  has to go away.
• 50:00
  It's wrong and it's evil.
• 50:02
  It has no value.
• 50:02
  It's not valid and has to be purged from my character.
• 50:05
  That's not how I experience it.
• 50:07
  And I try not to get into that with the people I work with.
• 50:10
  I don't even touch diagnosis.
• 50:11
  I don't even want to know.
• 50:12
  We'll just talk about what are the experiences, where are you trying to go?
• 50:15
  How can we help it?
• 50:16
  Fair enough.
• 50:17
  So we're kind of rounding out our hour.
• 50:19
  Maybe like uh eight or 10 minutes something like that.
• 50:24
  I'm I'm kind of uh you know curious to hear your advice regarding two things I guess.
• 50:32
  One would be how to ramp down uh the disability payments to kind of wean people off the way I was weaning people off narcotics using spoxum but less and less and less and less and less over the days and months and whatnot.
• 50:45
  That's number one.
• 50:46
  Number two, um marijuana seems to be kind of become a big industry.
• 50:51
  You know, should there be a huge warning label I mean we get them on cigarette packs.
• 50:54
  I assume they have them at the marijuana stores I've never frequented one.
• 50:58
  But should there be kind of a a you know a movement away from marijuana as this kind of great cure all recreational thing.
• 51:06
  Are there dangers there that you've seen any cohort aside from yourself about kind of the the panoply of problems and you know psychotic episodes and whatnot from the marijuana.
• 51:15
  I mean do you think that's a real thing or is it just happened coincidentally while you were happened to be on it.
• 51:20
  So I I guess I'll talk about the the uh getting off the social security thing and the first thing that popped into my mind the second you mentioned that was that I was talking to one of the case managers at my office recently and we were talking about how specifically with SSDI we wish there was like a tapering down process.
• 51:36
  Like I know how SSI works like you can make like $65 I think and it doesn't matter and then after that it's a two for one split every two dollars you make they take a dollar away so you can kind of make money and the checks will go down.
• 51:48
  But with Social Security like Social Security disability payments there's a line and you just lose them and she had a client who was trying to get off of the benefits and work more and it was like an all or nothing thing and she was kind of like I wish like she could work more and get less of a check and kind of it could like she could become more self-sufficient and responsible for her finances and the benefits would go down instead of like okay you made over the SGA it's just done now.
• 52:14
  If they could kind of have like a you could ramp up your work and lower the benefits and kind of ease yourself out instead of like oh you cross the line and by the way you owe us a couple grand I think that would be really helpful.
• 52:26
  I've been sober since 2004 so I've really only encountered people being involved with marijuana since it's been legal and all that stuff through my work and through 12 step programs from the readings I've done and stuff like that it sounds like especially with the prevalence of edibles there's been like a huge uptick in people uh specifically because from my experience smoking marijuana it's usually a little bit of a depressant when you eat it you get the hallucinogenic effect um and now that you can just go to the store and buy like a candy bottle with like 50 grams of pot in it and get confused and like it's like eat one gram of one corner and you like you're stupid you don't know what you're doing you eat the whole bar and then you're in the the hospital because you think your body dissolved and like you accidentally killed your imaginary friend.
• 53:11
  I I I've heard that that's you know skyrocketed up since the edibles have been come so easily to uh obtain now that it's legal um I I don't know what the actual statistics are but I've read the the people go into the emergency room because they're having psychotic experience on animals is just like skyrocketed since the legalization but I haven't I mean I'm not in the community using it in those environments for 20 over 21 years now so I I don't necessarily see it.
• 53:39
  I only encounter it when I meet people with the 12 step programs or you know people that I work with.
• 53:45
  Yeah.
• 53:46
  So I was at a party uh this is probably 20 something years ago maybe longer 25 years ago was we were playing poker and it was a regular poker party and uh somebody brought food or whatever and so there were chips and this and that it's poker a bunch of guys.
• 54:01
  Yeah and uh you know there were some desserts out and so I took one of the desserts and there was a little cakes and whatnot and somebody said you know that that's herbal like oh I thought it was like I I thought it meant like vegan you know herbs and whatnot all nice and nice and so I had a piece or two and um and you know started feeling different and I I wasn't a marijuana user you know I've kind of had you know I might have a you know a glass of beer maybe every few days or whatever not a big drug guy ever.
• 54:34
  And anyway by the time I got home you know it it was like they were all laughing because I I said what was in that you know it's like oh that we had X one you know this is before legal marijuana and whatnot but you know I hadn't willingly taken it so I in a sense I was drug but it probably because I was you know stupid I didn't realize what he had meant when he had said that um and uh and I came home and I I looked in the mirror and and you know everything was like well you're talking about like dripping is like everything was like moving around it was like you know I've kind of looked like that Ed Edward uh Mook uh the scream painting you know the guy's got his hands on and everything's just all like moving around it wasn't colors changing but you know I looked at myself and I looked old and I you know all this kind of I'm like oh my god I got to be at work in the morning like what is this gonna be like and you know I and I I I wasn't like wobbly or anything like that but everything was just anyway so I get to bed and I you know have the alarm set up and I got up and I was fine you know so the story doesn't have you know much of an ending to it um except that I did experience that and it you know people you know I think downplay the kind of hallucinogenic uh and psychoactic active parts of marijuana I don't you know fully understand the brain chemistry part um and obviously there are some things that can you know bring that about I mean all those LSD and mushrooms and whatnot bring genuine hallucinations and I'm not sure how that coincides with the marijuana part um but you know this can be you know a disorienting thing I mean I at that point I was probably in my 40s or whatever you know I had a stable job and I own things and whatnot and and that was like whoa you know if I were like younger and had less basis you know instability and whatnot I mean that could be a very um you know kind of I don't know I suppose it could be an attractive experience for some people who are unhappy with themselves or their lives or whatnot.
• 56:27
  So we're gonna end it right there.
• 56:29
  So any uh last last words Matthew no I'm okay it's great to be here thank you so much.
• 56:34
  That's all for today remember every myth has a solution and every truth has the power to transform your health find us on America Out Loud Pulse Radio every Friday at 5 p.m eastern or on demand wherever you get your podcasts stay curious stay informed and we'll see you next week.
• 56:48
  America Out Loud Pulse always be the health