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The Legal & Business Case for Website Accessibility · The Ecommerce Revolution Podcast

• 0:01
  Welcome to today's episode of the e-commerce revolution podcast
• 0:04
  where we dive into
• 0:05
  the dynamic world of e-commerce and uncover the tools and
• 0:08
  tactics that empower
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: today's emerging entrepreneurs.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Our podcast is part of our community with the same name.
• 0:15
  The community is geared to providing emerging e-commerce
• 0:18
  entrepreneurs with courses,
• 0:19
  content and coaching to help you all launch and grow successful businesses.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Check us out at ecomrevolution.co.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get things started.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of the eCommerce Revolution Podcast.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have an important topic to discuss, website accessibility.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Our special guest is Nayan Padreid,
• 0:45
  the founder of eComback and a dedicated activist in the complex
• 0:49
  and legally
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: challenging world of web accessibility.
• 0:53
  With a wealth of experience helping businesses create
• 0:56
  accessible online sites,
• 0:59
  Nayan has been at the forefront of fighting accessibility
• 1:02
  rights and compliance.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to his work in the e-commerce space,
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Nayan is a talented screenwriter and filmmaker,
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: and he will tell us more about that later,
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: merging creativity with a passion for positive change.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Today, we'll explore the critical importance of web accessibility,
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: discuss the legal challenges facing online businesses,
• 1:24
  and learn how emerging e-commerce entrepreneurs can stay ahead
• 1:29
  in making their
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: sites more inclusive and,
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: staying out of legal trouble.
• 1:34
  So,
• 1:34
  without any further ado,
• 1:36
  please welcome Nayeon to the E-commerce Revolution podcast.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Nayeon, great to have you here.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: I've been trying to get you here for, I think, a year and a half.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: I am so happy that you are here.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much for making the time today.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: My pleasure.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having us.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, of course.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're working on this and I think you and I met,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: if I'm not mistaken,
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: off of a phone call.
• 1:56
  My wife's website was having some accessibility legal issues
• 2:01
  and she did some
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: research and she found you and
• 2:05
  You were gracious enough to spend time with us on the phone and
• 2:08
  kind of walk us
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: through this maze,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'll call it,
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: if anything else,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: of accessibility.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you just shed so much information and just helped us out so much.
• 2:18
  I really wanted to make sure that you could bring this
• 2:20
  information to all of these
• 2:21
  e-commerce entrepreneurs out there who have heard about this
• 2:24
  issue but don't really
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: know what to make of it.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if you don't mind,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: and we'll just jump right in if you're good with that,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I will have a slew of questions for you.
• 2:34
  So maybe to start off with,
• 2:36
  Nayan,
• 2:36
  can you just explain what accessibility means for a website?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: What does this concept mean?
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  SPEAKER_02: Basically,
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: people who rely on assistive technology,
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  SPEAKER_02: people with visual disabilities or other disabilities,
• 2:51
  such as folks with hearing loss or motor abilities where they
• 2:57
  need to use certain
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: assistive technologies,
• 3:01
  A website has to be coded in a way where these assistive
• 3:04
  technologies can read or
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  SPEAKER_02: function with the website.
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  SPEAKER_02: Typically,
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: majority of the action,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: so to say,
• 3:12
  in this space is related to visual disabilities because folks
• 3:17
  who use screen readers,
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: which are built into most operating systems and browsers now,
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: so for example,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: if you get a new
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  SPEAKER_02: Apple Computer, the second or third screen is accessibility.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: When you download any app, it'll ask you to turn on accessibility.
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  So computers come built in with assistive technology now for
• 3:38
  the most part.
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  And then there's also other older screen reading software such
• 3:44
  as JAWS or NVDA,
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  SPEAKER_02: which are typically used on Windows operating systems.
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  So those technologies need to be able to interact with your
• 3:54
  website to know what is a
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: navigation bar or what is the checkout button, basically.
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  SPEAKER_02: And if the website is not coded in that way, then those tools can't work.
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  SPEAKER_02: Because they won't know what the element on the screen case.
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  And what if I'm using,
• 4:11
  you know,
• 4:11
  a platform like a Shopify or Squarespace or Wix?
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  Am I already do I already have some of the technology in place
• 4:20
  to manage accessibility?
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  SPEAKER_00: Or is that not really the case?
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  SPEAKER_02: Wix has an advanced accessibility tool.
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  SPEAKER_02: However,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's not very obvious,
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  and I don't believe it's mandatory like the way they have with
• 4:37
  some of their other tools.
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  SPEAKER_02: For Shopify, the themes themselves are not fully accessible.
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  SPEAKER_02: And when you modify the theme,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: which pretty much everybody does because you have to,
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: that might break any accessibility that's already built in.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: as well as when you add apps, those apps may not function correctly.
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  SPEAKER_02: A majority of the apps in the market are not accessible.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: The ones that are are great, but those are a few.
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  And we've helped a bunch of apps become accessible over the
• 5:08
  past three years.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: But it's getting there slowly, slowly.
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  SPEAKER_02: The awareness is coming,
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  so folks are trying to do what they can to ensure that things
• 5:16
  function with each
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  SPEAKER_02: other in a symbiotic way so that
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  SPEAKER_02: As a whole, the website is accessible to people with disabilities.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, in general, accessibility is a good thing.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Making your site accessible is an important thing, a good thing.
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  I think lately it's also created some fear out there for
• 5:37
  website owners and maybe
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: also those who have built the website that,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  because there are some rumblings and you're hearing more and
• 5:46
  more that people are
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  SPEAKER_00: falling into the legal side,
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: which we'll talk about in a few minutes.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Just in general,
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  I want to make sure that everybody understands that this is a
• 5:54
  good thing to make
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: your site accessible.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
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  SPEAKER_00: You would agree with that?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's no, everyone needs to have access.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: So,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: we talked about the fact that,
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is an,
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: accessibility is an important thing.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let's,
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: let's talk about the legal side,
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: because as we mentioned,
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: this is maybe where some of the fear comes in and the compliance,
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: what,
• 6:16
  what are some of the things that a e-commerce entrepreneur
• 6:19
  should be aware of right
• 6:20
  out of the gate when it comes to the legal and compliance
• 6:23
  considerations out there?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
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  SPEAKER_02: so at the onset,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a lawyer,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: but I'm very well versed in the legal aspects of website accessibility.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: And if you go to our website,
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: ecomback.com,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: and you scroll to the bottom or on the top,
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  SPEAKER_02: there's a section called Lawsuit Reports.
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  And we break down all of the legal filings that happen
• 6:47
  literally on a daily basis
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  SPEAKER_02: across the U.S.,
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  SPEAKER_02: primarily out of New York,
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  SPEAKER_02: Pennsylvania, Florida, and of course, California.
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  SPEAKER_02: And essentially,
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  SPEAKER_02: there are about 25 lawyers or 20 lawyers,
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  law firms that have plaintiffs or clients who are plaintiffs
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  suing businesses
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  SPEAKER_02: across the country.
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  SPEAKER_02: So you don't have to be in any one of these states to get sued.
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  SPEAKER_02: You could be anywhere in the world.
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  SPEAKER_02: Primarily the businesses are in the U.S.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so long as the plaintiff is in one of these hotbed states,
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  SPEAKER_02: you could wind up getting a legal notice,
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  SPEAKER_02: a demand letter,
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  SPEAKER_02: which is a public communication,
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  SPEAKER_02: or,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: essentially those are the two things.
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  You're going to get either a lawsuit or you're going to get a
• 7:40
  demand letter.
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  SPEAKER_02: You might get an email saying,
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to use your website and I found these issues,
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  SPEAKER_02: but that's super rare.
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  SPEAKER_02: Usually it's the lawsuit or the demand letter from the attorney saying,
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: my client is going to sue you.
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  SPEAKER_02: Have your attorney contact me.
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  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_02: Which is in this end, demand for settlement, essentially.
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  SPEAKER_00: So no chance to really even do anything about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: No chance to fix anything.
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  SPEAKER_00: They go straight to the lawsuit side of things.
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  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely,
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  and that's the fundamental problem with the entire
• 8:20
  accessibility conversation,
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  which is that businesses are literally getting blindsided by
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  these lawsuits,
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  SPEAKER_02: and that's the title of the film I'm working on,
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  SPEAKER_02: Blindsided,
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  about this topic of how accessibility has become a real
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  challenge when you don't know,
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  SPEAKER_02: A,
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  SPEAKER_02: what is required of you legally,
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  and you don't have time to fix it and then you wind up paying
• 8:47
  legal fees to settle
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  SPEAKER_02: lawsuits or defend lawsuits instead of
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  SPEAKER_02: investing that money in accessibility,
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  which hasn't been well advertised or well promoted or well
• 9:02
  educated to not just
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: business people,
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: small businesses especially,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: but within the tech community.
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  SPEAKER_02: There is a crop of developers and coders,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: but frankly,
• 9:15
  most people who build websites are essentially using drag and
• 9:18
  drop features across
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: all these platforms that are
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: And not a lot of those people have real coding experience.
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  And even the ones that do don't really understand accessibility
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  because it's a very
• 9:31
  niche subject that requires a lot of expertise and
• 9:37
  understanding of these voluntary guidelines,
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  SPEAKER_02: which are called the Web Accessibility Content Guidelines,
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: WCAG.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: which have been created by members of the W3C.
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  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: essentially,
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: the lawsuits that,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: or the legal demand letters,
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: function in a way that is punitive without any kind of
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: typically, I should say, any kind of remediation period.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that's, to me, very wrong.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And how are they determining,
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: how if a website is,
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: accessible versus not or semi accessible?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, how are they doing this?
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  SPEAKER_00: Do they have like simple tools that they use that,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:23
  we should be using to to make sure that we're doing it for the
• 10:26
  good of everybody?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's two ways.
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  SPEAKER_02: For accessibility audits, automated tools, there's a bunch of them.
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  SPEAKER_02: The most famous is Wave by WebAIM.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's very easy to install.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's free.
• 10:43
  You can get a browser extension on Chrome or any,
• 10:46
  I think,
• 10:48
  mainstream browser.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's a few others.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Google Lighthouse also has a built-in tool.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of the real issues can only be found through manual testing.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: And to do manual testing, you need to have expertise in that.
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  SPEAKER_02: So what the lawsuits oftentimes claim are...
• 11:13
  that have been run through automated tests perhaps some manual
• 11:18
  testing because it's
• 11:21
  very easy to run these automated tests it'll take you know five
• 11:24
  ten minutes to run
• 11:25
  them and maybe half an hour at the most if you're really
• 11:29
  digging into it and what
• 11:34
  most businesses don't understand and it's I don't think it's
• 11:37
  their fault or
• 11:39
  Especially if they're using any of the website creation tools
• 11:45
  that are out there.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: There are automated checks for SEO.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: There's automated checks for running ads.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's all kinds of tools that are built into most of these platforms.
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  SPEAKER_02: Accessibility typically isn't one of them.
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  SPEAKER_02: And if it is, it's pretty well hidden.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not easy for a layman to address any of this.
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  SPEAKER_02: You have to have expertise.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to do an audit.
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  SPEAKER_02: And in order to do an audit,
• 12:11
  you need to know the person who's doing the audit knows what
• 12:14
  they're doing.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not easy by any stretch of the imagination.
• 12:19
  as much as a lot of people on LinkedIn and others would like to
• 12:21
  have you believe.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's not easy.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:25
  So we offer free audits at Ecom Back to a lot of businesses
• 12:28
  that are facing
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: litigation or are curious about what they should do.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the way...
• 12:36
  audit should be done is a combination of automated tests which
• 12:39
  are done at scale
• 12:41
  because websites have thousands of pages sometimes or hundreds
• 12:45
  of thousands of
• 12:46
  pages and manual checks manual checks are very important
• 12:53
  because the stuff that
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: manual checks can identify usually the automated test will not and until
• 13:04
  There are tools that businesses can use that are very easy to
• 13:09
  identify the issue
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: and how to fix that issue.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: This problem is not going away.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you see right away when you do one of these audits?
• 13:18
  What's generally like the first thing you see that jumps out at
• 13:22
  you as a problem in most cases?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: missing labels,
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: missing all text,
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: navigation bar,
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: not functioning correctly with screen reading.
• 13:36
  tools captions on videos or transcripts on videos there's a
• 13:41
  whole host of things
• 13:42
  and some of them could be small innocuous things that are
• 13:44
  littered across the
• 13:45
  website or sections headings that are not coded in a way in a
• 13:50
  congruent manner
• 13:51
  where things are going left to right top to bottom sometimes
• 13:54
  when elements will
• 13:56
  skip from the top to the middle and jump over a whole section
• 14:00
  of content and
• 14:01
  There are some things that are easily fixable and should be
• 14:06
  done on a regular basis,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: like adding all text to any images,
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: ensuring your form labels or ensuring labels on elements,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: which the designer or the coder should be doing,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: the developer should be doing.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: But some of it is hidden.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Especially when you use a lot of different apps,
• 14:22
  which a lot of businesses use 10 to 20 different apps on their
• 14:26
  website at any given point.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes those apps create conflicts within the code.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: It happens on a daily basis.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: And those sometimes are hard to check.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: We obviously have an expertise in auditing and fixing,
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: but we don't expect every business to know that,
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: nor should they have to.
• 14:48
  So working with someone who understands accessibility and
• 14:52
  compliance in general is
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: very important now,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: even things like privacy.
• 14:57
  There's a lot of lawsuits related to privacy,
• 15:00
  especially out of California.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: So these are the web, you know, poses its own business
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: liabilities now.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: So this is very interesting.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very curious about the app side of things.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 15:17
  you could do everything you need to do to your website to get
• 15:20
  it accessible,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: and then you introduce an app,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: and that app might not be accessible,
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what you're saying.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then potentially you're now putting your site in jeopardy again.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: even the,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: if the app is accessible and app pushes out a code,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: this just happened last week to a website,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: the,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: they're using an app for a form,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: a contact us form to fill out for a lead generation.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: It was working fine for months or more than a year.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: And suddenly they create a new element or a new version of the,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: the tool,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: the update is pushed automatically.
• 15:58
  and the website owner or the developer doesn't necessarily know
• 16:03
  what's happened on the backend.
• 16:05
  And only through a routine audit,
• 16:07
  we discovered,
• 16:08
  wait,
• 16:08
  we just fixed this.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Why is this happening?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, they made a new update.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: when they made the update,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: they screwed up what was already working well in the first place.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: And now it's not.
• 16:18
  And now they can't go backwards because they pushed this update
• 16:21
  out to everybody.
• 16:22
  So it's gonna take a few weeks or a month or whatever time it's
• 16:24
  gonna take.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you're exposed during that time, basically, for no fault of your own.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: So these are some of the things that can happen
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: as well-meaning as you can be without your fault.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: So what I find, you know,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Alt text,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: this is something that just as an e-commerce coach,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: advisor myself,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: this one thing I always look for,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: and I notice this time and time again,
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: the lack of alt text across the board.
• 16:57
  This seems to be like one of the things that most entrepreneurs
• 17:01
  kind of forget to
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: deal with when they load up an image on their website.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we always talk about this.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a big part.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is almost like a glaring problem for accessibility,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: maybe one that gets caught very quickly.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: If I am an entrepreneur and I launch my site,
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: but I forgot to put the alt text on maybe a thousand images,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: but then I find out that,
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: I need to do this.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Merely fixing this one problem is only the tip of the iceberg, right?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much more that you have to look at.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And running this audit through your site could be a great solution.
• 17:41
  know situation to figure out what every what all what else is
• 17:45
  wrong correct yeah
• 17:46
  that's literally just um the tip of the iceberg and that's the
• 17:49
  easiest thing to fix
• 17:51
  but even that it's not very obvious to most people that they
• 17:53
  need to add this
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: requirement um it's a best practice um and
• 18:00
  unfortunately it's hidden in most of the cms tools that are
• 18:04
  right there so it's not
• 18:05
  necessarily someone's fault for not intentionally doing
• 18:09
  something but um yeah it is
• 18:12
  definitely you know the easiest but oftentimes the most
• 18:15
  overlooked um but there's a
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: lot of more significant issues because now
• 18:22
  As far as the alt text is concerned,
• 18:23
  most browsers have AI tools built into them.
• 18:26
  And those AI tools will be able to generate alt text where it's
• 18:29
  missing as per the
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: user and dig into it.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: We've seen tools where even like ChatGPT and others where...
• 18:39
  the user will be able to control how much or how little alt
• 18:43
  text they want the
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: browser to read to them or tell them basically or generate for them.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of this will be fixed through AI.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: As AI gets smarter and the browsers get more AI tools built into them,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of accessibility issues will be resolved
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: through automated functions using artificial intelligence.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: However, that doesn't let you off the hook.
• 19:12
  You still need to ensure that you've created a website that
• 19:15
  fundamentally uses most
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: of the best practices,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: if not all of them,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: where possible.
• 19:21
  because not everyone is going to be adoptive to the new
• 19:25
  technology as quickly as
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: one would want.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting, interesting.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: then that brings me to,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: this is generally a place where most business owners tend to go to.
• 19:36
  They go to look for a tool or a piece of software,
• 19:40
  these overlays we call them,
• 19:42
  right?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: you mentioned to me a while back,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm curious to know if the position is still the same,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: that these overlays almost draw more attention to there being a problem.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is that still the case, or have they gotten better?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: They are red flags for lawsuits.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: In my film,
• 20:01
  we had interviewed a plaintiff attorney who worked at one of
• 20:04
  the most leading law
• 20:07
  firms in this space on the plaintiff's side where they filed
• 20:09
  thousands of lawsuits
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: and he said literally,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: every time you see one of these widgets,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: it's like waving a red flag.
• 20:15
  come suing basically um and that's what's happened where i
• 20:19
  think every month about
• 20:21
  25 between 20 to 25 percent of websites that we audit that have
• 20:24
  been sued were
• 20:26
  already using one of these overlay widgets and one of the
• 20:29
  leading um if not the
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: leading overlay provider was just sued
• 20:34
  over the summer in the Southern District of New York for making
• 20:39
  allegedly false
• 20:40
  claims or fraudulent claims about the effectiveness of their
• 20:44
  tools by business in
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: New York.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: So this becomes an issue because most small businesses,
• 20:56
  especially people starting out more specifically focused on the
• 20:59
  world of e-commerce,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: they don't have big budgets.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: to come and do massive audits.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: it sounds like they're usually coming to you after the fact,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: after they're already in trouble in some cases,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: to get help.
• 21:15
  Is there anything they can do that would be low cost to help
• 21:18
  them get started out
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: on the right foot when it comes to accessibility?
• 21:23
  our audits are free so we brought audits are free but then what
• 21:27
  if they you find a
• 21:28
  a lot of problems then we're talking about a situation where
• 21:32
  they will have to make
• 21:33
  some sort of investment correct absolutely and it can range
• 21:35
  anywhere from typically
• 21:37
  around two to five thousand dollars depending on the website um
• 21:40
  usually it's less
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: than that it's between two and three thousand dollars um
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: it could be more, it could be less.
• 21:47
  It just depends on the situation and how much work is involved,
• 21:50
  basically.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: But there are companies that will charge five times that,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: ten times that,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: depending on the situation,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: essentially,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: and what their cost structures are or their pricing models are.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: But unfortunately, it is no longer cheap
• 22:12
  easy or risk-free to launch an online business like it was
• 22:18
  maybe some to ten years
• 22:19
  ago where you know for $20 a month or $30 a month you can have
• 22:23
  a website and
• 22:24
  essentially your expenses rise with your revenue or sales now
• 22:28
  there are upfront
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: costs that are definitely going to play a vital role in
• 22:37
  the creation or the not you know or not creation of businesses
• 22:42
  on the internet
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you just,
• 22:45
  maybe in comparison to the potential lawsuits that you're
• 22:49
  seeing out there,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: are they ranging?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember seeing one for $5,000.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I've heard of another one for $50,000.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So they get up there.
• 23:00
  So maybe making a $2,000 to $3,000 to $4,000 investment is a
• 23:05
  much better situation
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: to make sure you're in good shape.
• 23:08
  It's always cheaper to have the website to be accessible in the
• 23:10
  first place.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: The lawsuits, there's no rhyme and reason for what the amount is.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's however much they think you can pay.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because the ADA does not require payment.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: What the ADA requires, there's no statutory penalties in the ADA.
• 23:26
  What the ADA says is that you have to make reasonable
• 23:29
  accommodations upon request,
• 23:30
  right?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: If you haven't already made those accommodations in the first place,
• 23:34
  then you have to do it upon request without fundamentally
• 23:37
  changing or altering the
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: nature of the business of the goods or services that you provide.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: and so long as it's not an undue burden.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Now,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: you have to go to court to prove all of those things,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: whether it's an undue burden,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: whether it was required,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: all of those things cost money,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: the lawyers cost money.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: In California, that's not the case.
• 23:53
  In California,
• 23:54
  there are statutory fines that are $4,500 or $4,000,
• 23:58
  I forget,
• 23:59
  per violation.
• 24:00
  So in California,
• 24:02
  it's extremely profitable to file accessibility lawsuits.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: And from what we've heard, the minimum
• 24:12
  payment would be probably ten to twelve thousand dollars to the
• 24:17
  attorney and to the
• 24:18
  plaintiff if not more so typically when these demands come in
• 24:24
  they will say you
• 24:25
  know my client expects seventy five thousand dollars or my
• 24:28
  client expects fifty
• 24:28
  thousand dollars to drop the case and for you to do this that
• 24:31
  and the other
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: The client in New York is usually getting $500.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: The attorney is getting the rest, typically, obviously.
• 24:42
  And there's not a lot of work involved in filing hundreds of
• 24:46
  cases because most of
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: them are boilerplate.
• 24:49
  They're copy-paste lawsuits,
• 24:51
  as judges have pointed out repeatedly in their rulings.
• 24:55
  But from the business's point of view the business is stuck
• 24:58
  because they still have
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: to defend this they have to go to court They have to retain a lawyer.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: They have to do it's a distraction.
• 25:04
  It's a huge huge mental drain a resource drain so knowing that
• 25:11
  this is the
• 25:13
  situation it's better to obviously fix any issues or create the
• 25:18
  website properly in
• 25:19
  the first place by working with companies that are
• 25:24
  knowledgeable in this space or
• 25:26
  developers that are knowledgeable in accessibility and
• 25:29
  accessibility isn't the only
• 25:31
  legal hurdle businesses face now privacy is another one there's
• 25:34
  like laws in every
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: single state
• 25:36
  you know that are related to privacy and others other issues
• 25:41
  but accessibility is
• 25:43
  the one that is definitely in the forefront of the conversation
• 25:46
  right now and it's
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: going to be for the next several years
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, do you see, I mean, you brought up an interesting point.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm going to be building my site from the ground up or,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: using a platform like Shopify or Squarespace or Wix,
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: I should become well versed.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And is there an opportunity to rather than doing that audit,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: getting that consultation,
• 26:10
  does your company offer that initial consultation that I would
• 26:14
  need as a small
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: business to get myself set up correctly before
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: So before I even put myself out there?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 26:23
  We create websites using accessibility in mind from the ground up,
• 26:29
  basically.
• 26:30
  Because it's oftentimes easier to build it correctly in the
• 26:34
  first place than to
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: have to rebuild it later.
• 26:38
  And many times when clients come to us to fix the website after
• 26:44
  they've been sued,
• 26:46
  We advise them that let's rebuild the site from scratch and
• 26:51
  move the content over
• 26:53
  rather than fix an old theme or a theme developed by a third
• 26:58
  party that when it updates,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: the work that you've done might get wiped out.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes it's cheaper to build it properly in the first place.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yes, we definitely offer those services.
• 27:12
  And I would say to anyone listening to ensure that whoever your
• 27:17
  web developer is or
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: your designer is,
• 27:19
  cause you need both accessibility is two buckets from it's
• 27:24
  essentially code and content.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: The code has to be,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 27:30
  created in a way that it conforms to the web content
• 27:32
  accessibility guidelines.
• 27:34
  which are voluntary in a way and they're not voluntary in a way
• 27:38
  because they're the
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: ones that are being used for filing all these lawsuits.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, they're de facto regulation.
• 27:44
  Content in a way in the sense that you as the business owner or
• 27:48
  your design team or
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: your content team or your SEO team content on your website,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: your product team,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: your data team,
• 27:56
  or that might all be you as one business owner doing everything
• 27:59
  yourself like I've
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: done in the past.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: The content you create
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: resides on the code.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's both those things.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: And understanding the basics are vital, basically.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting, okay.
• 28:17
  Well,
• 28:17
  I know that you,
• 28:20
  at the top of the show we talked about,
• 28:21
  you're very involved in
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: trying to get this,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: some of these legal issues resolved,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: fixed out their legislative elements and getting,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: with the hopes,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: I assume,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: of getting back to what this is really all about is,
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: helping businesses get their sites more accessible,
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: which is a good thing not to do.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: One particular fight that you've taken on in California,
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: where you are,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: is AB-1757,
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: if I'm not mistaken.
• 28:51
  I remember reading about this because it pulled in the world of
• 28:55
  developers and designers,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: and it was a very...
• 29:00
  big bill,
• 29:01
  and you managed to,
• 29:04
  through your efforts,
• 29:05
  to squash it at the moment.
• 29:07
  It is now no longer something at least,
• 29:09
  and I think you said every so often,
• 29:11
  it can come back.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: maybe in a different form.
• 29:15
  Maybe could you tell us a little bit about this AB 757 through
• 29:20
  the lens of how does
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: it affect maybe other states?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Are other states looking at this?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Federally, are they looking at this?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't believe that any state should govern accessibility.
• 29:31
  I believe it's the job of the Department of Justice and the
• 29:34
  federal government to
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: create regulations that
• 29:38
  whether they be related to privacy or anything related to the
• 29:41
  internet shouldn't be
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: done on a state-by-state basis.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: There isn't anything different in any state that,
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:47
  one person living in one state shouldn't have different
• 29:51
  requirements or a business
• 29:53
  in one state shouldn't have different requirements from one
• 29:55
  state to the other
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: because the internet doesn't live state-by-state.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: The internet lives globally.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: So at the minimum,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: the federal government should be the one that creates sensible,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: easy to follow,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: easy to understand,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: and easy to execute regulations on what is website accessibility.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: for example.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's my personal view.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: In California,
• 30:15
  obviously California functions as a mini-country in many ways
• 30:19
  because it creates
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: the most amount of regulation probably of any state in the country.
• 30:24
  There's almost 3,000 bills that are introduced every single
• 30:27
  year in California.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: Not all of them obviously make it,
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: thankfully,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: but in the case of AB1757,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: it's a well-meaning bill.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: I know the author, I've spoken to her many times, and
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: They're trying to solve a problem.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: However,
• 30:42
  I don't think that they've been able to solve it in a way that
• 30:47
  is reasonable to
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: businesses and to the tech community.
• 30:52
  Because a lot of what has been driven has been punitive to me,
• 30:59
  from what I feel.
• 31:00
  So I feel that the simplest and easiest way to enhance website
• 31:06
  accessibility is to
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: create education around this topic,
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: federally required regulations around this topic.
• 31:16
  Have a notice to cure when there is a problem,
• 31:18
  because there will be a problem.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: And mind you,
• 31:21
  every single lawmaker in California has a website because they
• 31:24
  all run for election.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: Every single one of them is inaccessible.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: The state of California has a certification on their website,
• 31:30
  which we showed them last year was faulty because their website
• 31:34
  is not accessible,
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: although it claims to be certified to be accessible.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: The sponsors of this bill and the sponsors of a lot of these things are
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: organizations whose own websites are not accessible,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: which we have proven to them.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of hypocrisy, which annoys me.
• 31:50
  Because there's a lot of finger wagging on what other people
• 31:54
  should do when you
• 31:55
  yourself can't do it or haven't done it or should have the
• 31:58
  wherewithal to do it in
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: the first place.
• 32:00
  So instead of creating a punitive environment where
• 32:03
  accessibility becomes a fear
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: from the position of the business,
• 32:09
  It should be something that is celebrated and should be
• 32:12
  something that is done in a
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: positive way,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: not in a manner,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: you must do this or else way.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what my biggest pain point is,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: where I feel frustrated that in our country,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: in the recent past,
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: businesses have been,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: especially small businesses,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: have already gone through the wringer with the pandemic.
• 32:36
  I don't see the government doing much except for talk on how to
• 32:39
  support businesses
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: by having less burdensome regulation,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: less burdensome environment to function and prosper.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's all these hidden rules that benefit attorneys,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: that benefit the legal industry,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: but they don't necessarily benefit the small business or the consumer,
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: although it's couched in that way.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's couched under consumer protection.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's couched under we're doing good for humanity or we're doing,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: anyone who tells you that is usually full of shit,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know?
• 33:18
  And the tech industry is usually full of shit when it says
• 33:20
  things like that,
• 33:21
  right?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: But- Yeah.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's one of my biggest things.
• 33:26
  So when I saw this bill with my partners when we were making
• 33:28
  the film,
• 33:30
  we were astonished.
• 33:33
  And I took it upon myself to contact every single lawmaker
• 33:37
  involved in the various
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: iterations of this bill to educate their teams,
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: their policy teams on the topic.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: And fortunately,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: through help with other folks on a grassroots basis,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: none of us are lobbyists,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: everybody who was involved did it on their own,
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: were able to convince
• 34:02
  certain lawmakers that the way this topic is being addressed
• 34:06
  isn't necessarily fair,
• 34:07
  isn't necessarily going to achieve the results that the bill
• 34:11
  says it's going to achieve,
• 34:12
  which is to provide protection to businesses against lawsuits
• 34:17
  when all they would
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: do is create more lawsuits.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I appreciate you, you know, your efforts in that.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: that's one state,
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: but a big state and one that is very active,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: at least from a legal standpoint,
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: the lawyers out there are very active in that.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: So on behalf of,
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurs who are in the California area,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: that's a great job that you did.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm glad that at least you got to stop it at this point.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: if I'm,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: if I'm an entrepreneur listening to this and I guess my action steps,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: if I haven't launched my site,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: if I'm just planning on building is to,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:53
  work with a company like yours to figure out the right things
• 34:57
  to do to make sure my
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: site is going to be accessible.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess if I've already launched and I'm into it, whether I've
• 35:06
  received hopefully you haven't received a lawsuit but good to
• 35:09
  get an audit right
• 35:10
  come to econ back and and have an audit done to find out what
• 35:13
  your exposure is
• 35:14
  right i mean maybe those are the two action points you know
• 35:17
  that somebody can take
• 35:18
  out of listening to this uh podcast and put their site in a
• 35:22
  better place put their
• 35:23
  site because accessibility is an important it's it's important
• 35:27
  i i you know i i
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: feel like uh what we're saying here is it's gotten overshadowed
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: by the legal troubles that it's caused, right?
• 35:36
  There's also many other benefits to making sure that your
• 35:38
  website is accessible,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: because if it's accessible,
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: it's also following some really important structural guidelines,
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: which will make the website leaner,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: cleaner,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: have better SEO.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's something you're very familiar with.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it just a good, hopefully user experience for everyone.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not just websites.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's also mobile apps.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's also your mobile website, obviously.
• 36:06
  Most people use the Internet on their phones more than on their
• 36:09
  desktops when it
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: comes to shopping.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Great point.
• 36:14
  One of the things I notice is websites create way too many
• 36:19
  bells and whistles,
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: have way too many apps,
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: and have way too many things that no one uses.
• 36:24
  or you install and you forget about and that are causing
• 36:27
  problems on your website,
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: whether they be slowing it down or many other things that are
• 36:34
  not really relevant to the consumer experience,
• 36:37
  but might look cool to you and your team.
• 36:39
  So really understand why do I have to have this on my website
• 36:43
  instead of how much
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: shit can I throw against it?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's, that's well said.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe just take a few minutes.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Also tell us about the movie.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: You've referenced it a few times.
• 36:56
  You know,
• 36:57
  it's on accessibility,
• 36:59
  but you know,
• 36:59
  when,
• 37:00
  when should we expect it?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Where can we find it?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Where can we watch it and learn?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: The title of the film is called Blindsided.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: We are in the final stage of post-production at the moment.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully in 2025,
• 37:10
  it'll be out and you'll be the first to know when we have it
• 37:15
  locked in and have the
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: distribution set.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: But yes,
• 37:18
  we are planning to get it out to as many people as possible and
• 37:20
  make it widely
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: available because it is a topic that I think
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: will be eye opening for many people.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I'm excited to watch it.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's going to be beneficial.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Please let us know.
• 37:32
  We'll make sure everybody in the community is aware of it and
• 37:36
  watches it and want
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: to definitely support you in this process.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: As we wrap this up,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: and this has been really informative,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: and I think it's such an important topic.
• 37:45
  Maybe it doesn't get the attention that some of the digital
• 37:49
  marketing efforts in
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: the world of e-commerce get and AI and all of these things,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: but it's such an important element for many reasons.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: One, to obviously make your site accessible is a good thing.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of benefit to it,
• 38:02
  but also to hopefully keep you out of the legal crosshairs that
• 38:06
  are out there.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: So as we wrap it up, I want to ask you, you mentioned AI.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think every podcast that I do these days, the topic of AI comes out.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious from your standpoint,
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: is there anything lately,
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: and I always like to ask this last question,
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: that you've done on AI or used in AI that has just blown you away,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: that you just had a moment of like,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe
• 38:28
  that i could do something like that it's more of like a polling
• 38:31
  question here more
• 38:31
  than anything else oh absolutely and that's another thing
• 38:34
  california is seems to be
• 38:35
  held undone um shaping or stopping or yeah i saw that get in
• 38:40
  the way of um which it
• 38:42
  should not but um no ai is fantastic i think if you know how to
• 38:47
  use a tool you
• 38:48
  won't be scared of the tool obviously guard rails need to be
• 38:51
  built in um and no one
• 38:53
  is saying that they shouldn't be built in but there's a lot of
• 38:55
  scare around the
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: word ai
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think AI democratizes content creation.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: It elevates people for whom English isn't a first language,
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: who did not go to Stanford,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: who are not the Ivy League assortment of people.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: I have seen in our own teams,
• 39:18
  people for whom communication and language isn't necessarily
• 39:22
  their strong suit,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: be able to use AI at the simplest level of writing emails,
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: or whether it's writing content or writing product descriptions,
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: creating image ideas,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: creating banners,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: creating audio,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: creating video.
• 39:39
  every day in every way possible from creating formulas for
• 39:43
  google sheets to um
• 39:45
  automating functions i mean it is just endless potential um one
• 39:51
  needs to invest
• 39:52
  time and resources into understanding it and understanding how
• 39:56
  it can work for you
• 39:57
  without getting overwhelmed because you could get overwhelmed
• 40:00
  but um it's you know
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: it's
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: The world is not going back.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: AI is going to get stronger.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to get smarter.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to help us do our jobs.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to replace some jobs.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to create some jobs.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's the nature of evolution.
• 40:16
  But I don't subscribe to people who try to scare you into why
• 40:20
  something is bad
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: rather than tell you how it's good and how we can make it safer.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that's usually the position I take.
• 40:26
  And there's another very important point that you've mentioned
• 40:29
  to me in the past
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: and that you really wanted to bring up.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to give you the floor to kind of talk about it.
• 40:34
  I think business owners,
• 40:36
  developers,
• 40:37
  designers need to participate in a couple different ways.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: One is join the W3C.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: We're members of the W3C.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Join the International Association of Accessibility Professionals,
• 40:49
  but more importantly the W3C because the W3C is where all the
• 40:52
  action is in terms of
• 40:53
  creation of these guidelines for accessibility as well as for
• 40:57
  other core functions
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: of the internet.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: And if you are not
• 41:01
  part of creation or maintenance or feedback related to what the
• 41:08
  future of the
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: internet is going to be,
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: then you're essentially out of the loop.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: And from what I see,
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: a very small contingent of people are involved in creation of guidelines,
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: in creation of rules,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: in a sense,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: voluntary rules or voluntary standards,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: I should say.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: And there needs to be more diversification.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: There needs to be more practical,
• 41:32
  hands-on involvement from folks that run agencies related to
• 41:39
  web development and
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: businesses that are on the Internet.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: and how the internet should
• 41:46
  And I think that it's part of being involved in the business
• 41:55
  that you're in essentially,
• 41:56
  right?
• 41:57
  You need to know how the sausage is made basically and be part
• 42:00
  of it rather than be
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: a passive recipient.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one thing.
• 42:07
  And the second thing is be aware of regulation that is coming
• 42:11
  down across state or
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: federal levels.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because that might impact you and your business in many ways.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I see people who are very passive get hit.
• 42:26
  with information or with a lawsuit or with the situation that
• 42:30
  they then don't know
• 42:31
  how to handle so um you know that's the second third is the
• 42:35
  chamber of commerces or
• 42:36
  your industry associations a lot of them also rely on lobbyists
• 42:41
  who may or may not
• 42:42
  really understand technology um as well as it that they could
• 42:46
  because they don't
• 42:47
  have subject matter expertise so get involved in your industry
• 42:51
  associations um
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think,
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: frankly,
• 42:55
  we need an industry association for Internet sellers or
• 43:00
  e-commerce sellers because
• 43:01
  I don't really see a voice that we have in any of these
• 43:04
  conversations on a mass level.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: There's millions of businesses.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: in the United States.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe in your spare time, maybe you take that on.
• 43:15
  Now that you got the bills squashed,
• 43:18
  that's a great opportunity and it's a good point.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's an absolutely great point you're making.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: There's no union for small business.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: The US Chamber of Commerce is not a union for small businesses.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's just not.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: There is no union for small businesses.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: We create most of the jobs in this country.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't we have a stronger voice?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's fascinating.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I wish I had the answer.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have the answer to that.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: But you make a very good point and representation,
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: for an industry,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: if you will,
• 43:48
  that creates so many jobs and revenue and taxes and all of that
• 43:56
  that comes with it.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well said on that part.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming on.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, such an important topic.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: You just provided so many nuggets of information.
• 44:10
  I feel that when we come to do the social clips,
• 44:13
  we're gonna have a lot to work with here.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it goes back to your point.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's about education, right?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: The more you know about this topic,
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: rather than sitting on the sidelines saying,
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard about this accessibility,
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: situation issue, I don't really get involved.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: Join these associations, read up, go to Ecom back.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: You have a lot of content on your site.
• 44:36
  Reach out to your team and have an audit done if you're in that
• 44:41
  situation where you're worried.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: But get educated, get involved, and above all, make your site accessible.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: That is a good thing and that is what we're here to say.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want people to forget that.
• 44:52
  thank you again for making the time in your schedule today to
• 44:55
  come on to the
• 44:56
  e-commerce revolution podcast if you just take a second tell
• 44:59
  people where they can
• 44:59
  find you um uh ecomback.com i know that we'll put that in the
• 45:03
  show notes anywhere
• 45:04
  else uh linkedin etc yeah i'm on linkedin um i'm not very um
• 45:09
  active on any of the
• 45:10
  other social networks um but on ecomback.com um you can find me
• 45:15
  there or look me up
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: on the internet and uh
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: would be happy to chat with anyone that needs our help,
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: or needs any advice basically,
• 45:23
  or would like to talk about any of what we talked about on the
• 45:25
  show today.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: And, uh, have a great rest of your day.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that brings us to the end of another episode.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much, everybody for joining us.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: you can find all of the information,
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: down in the show notes,
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: and stay tuned for future episodes.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: See ya.
• 45:44
  All right,
• 45:45
  that brings us to the end of another episode of the e-commerce
• 45:48
  revolution podcast.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to check out past episodes,
• 45:52
  which are all available on demand on YouTube and wherever you
• 45:55
  listen to your podcast.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: Ready to join the revolution?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Become an exclusive part of our growing community of emerging e-commerce
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurs at ecomrevolution.co.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, see ya.