Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / Leaving An Abusive Relationship

Transcript

Leaving An Abusive Relationship · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to this week's episode of the podcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: As a valued listener to Reflect, Reclaim and Liverade, I wanted to jump in quickly before we start this week's episode and let you know about something I'll be releasing in the next few weeks, April 2024.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's something a few of you have asked me for, and it's going to be a small group coaching program for women and anyone who identifies a female who is contemplating leaving your marriage or ending a relationship, moving through separation or divorce.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's going to be a supportive space to explore your options, make some decisions, and receive the help you most need.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: Community, connecting with others who know firsthand exactly what you're going through.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: Affordable, accessible, one-to-one coaching support with me in a group setting.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: Specific tailored expert support with me is a coach because I get where you are, I intimately understand it and have support me through it.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: So you can decide and thrive afterwards.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: If this is something you are interested in, I would encourage you to join the wait list.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: There's a link in the show notes so that you will be the first to know when spaces open for this small intimate group coaching programme experience.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: And now for this week's episode of the podcast.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: Finding the space for all of you in life and love.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Sally Ann Hartnell, and this podcast is for anyone wanting to reclaim and liberate themselves in their relationships and their life.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: Wherever you are on your relationship journey, these conversations meet you right there.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: In soulful, deeply supportive DNMs with me and interviews with other gorgeous humans.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: Moving you from where you are to where you most want to be.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: A life and love completely aligned with your deepest desires to have it all on your own terms.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: If you're seeking a relationship and a life that lights up all of you, you're in the right place.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'd also like to acknowledge that this podcast is recorded on the traditional lands of the Wuradri people and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: And today we're tackling a tricky subject, leaving an abusive relationship.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: And to help me tackle that subject, I'm welcoming Caroline Parsons back to the podcast.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: Caroline is the principal lawyer at Solo Legal.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: She takes a human and empathetic approach to resolving family disputes.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: She has training in trauma-informed practice and works with clients in a super sensitive way.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: Caroline has also experienced a toxic relationship and after 20 years in banking law, decided to enter family law to help others in the same situation.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: Caroline established her own firm, solo legal, to help targets of psychological and emotional abuse separate safely and well from their intimate partners.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: Now I'm just gonna kick off with a trigger warning here because this episode mentions domestic violence, complex PTSD, and trauma, and it is also recorded in memory of a member of my extended family, Loggy, who was murdered by her ex-partner in 2023.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's recorded in her memory, but also in memory of all the women who should have been safe and who were not.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, Caroline, welcome to the podcast.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, welcome back to the podcast.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: It is great to have you back.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: Great to be back.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Sam.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, today we're gonna tackle a tricky subject, and that is leaving a dangerous relationship.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: So let's just not sugarcoat it.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: Let's just launch in because this is going to be a hard conversation to have, I think, and a hard one for some people to listen to.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so let's really start at the start.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: What, in your opinion, are the key things that anyone who's wanting to leave what is a dangerous situation, dangerous relationship, what are the key things that need to be done beforehand, before they announce that they're leaving, before that they leave?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if there's one thing that your listeners take from this podcast, it is don't take legal advice from the person who's trying to hurt you.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: That would be my number one tip.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: What I often hear from clients is I didn't go to see a lawyer because he said that, you know, if I, you know, he would he was going to get 80% and I would get nothing and I would leave with nothing.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the first thing I would say when you're thinking about leaving, and and there are going to be conversations, you know, once you think about leaving, it's it's hard to kind of keep that hidden.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you're probably going to start having conversations with your partner about it.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: But don't take legal advice from your partner.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Go and find a lawyer or call a legal services line, women's legal service, or just get some advice so that you know what your rights are before you open.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's tip number one.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: What else?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: Getting ducks in a row, the practical, the financial.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: What else do you think, in your opinion, needs to be done before leaving?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot in that question.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to give you little bits and pieces, and you can tell me the bits you like and the bits you don't like.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: But um the difficult, everybody knows that where you the worst case scenario is you end up in family court.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're leaving, you want to make sure that you are um prepared and you're in a good place.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um now the problem when you get to family court is that it's very much a he said, she said type scenario.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so what you really want to do before you leave is to get as much evidence as you can of the things that you need to know.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the two big things when you leave are financial settlement, which is obviously separating finances, and the second is parenting the children if you have them.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: So what that means is download bank statements if you can, um, get copies of children's birth certificates, your birth certificate.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it doesn't have to be, you don't have to have a scanner and you know, an industrial scanner and scan all these documents.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you can safely take photos of important documents, it's just going to help you when the time comes to do property settlement, for example.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it will also help in terms of like medical reports from children, all of that kind of stuff.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: So from a uh from an evidentiary perspective, I would say make sure you start collecting information that's around you because if you leave, you may not be able to do so.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, exactly.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: Who do you need to tell if you're leaving?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: Now, as the person, sorry, I should qualify that question.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: That was really rough.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: As the person leaving, who do you need to tell?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: So a really, really important part of this process is being safe.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's number one priority is being safe.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of talk in the media about the police not understanding, and you know, don't go to the police and don't do this and don't see that person.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Don't talk to everyone.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Get help from anyone you can get help from.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Go to see counselors at school, go and check, you know, talk to counselors at school for the children.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, most importantly for you, go to the police.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I see you're smiling.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm smiling because I knew you were going to say that.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: We've had this conversation before.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I was hoping that you would answer that question in that way.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: So go to the police.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the great thing is the last time we had this conversation, there was there's moves afoot to kind of create a better police force because let's face it, it hasn't got a great reputation.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: As time goes on, they are getting better and better at understanding domestic violence.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I don't I don't know if I mentioned this the last time, but did we talk about the DB liaison officer?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think so, but let's let's revisit it anyway, because I think it's really important information to get out there.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I think what happens, people who have a bad experience with the police, it's often that they walk down to their local police station and they say, G'day, my name's Jane, and I'm experiencing UB.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And this police officer at the front desk has a hundred million things to deal with, and he's just not interested, which is going to mess with you.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's really going to make it difficult for you to move forward, and it's it's going to make you feel like you're not important and feel like you shouldn't have come and all those terrible things.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: The way you connect with the police is important.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what I recommend is that you call a police station view and you ask for a domestic violence there as an officer.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that's what they're calling some states, they call different things in different states, but what you want to ask for is that person who has had specific training in DB understands what you might be going through.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: They will then set up a time for you so that will create space for you in coaching language.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: They'll give you an hour, or you come in, you'll have a private room, you'll get to sit with them and you can tell them if happening.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I would encourage anybody who is even slightly concerned about leaving to do this.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you need to be aware that they have an obligation to report and they can also they have powers to oust, for example.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So they have they can take things from you at that point.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: Which should be a reason not to go, by the way.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's just because it's something might be taken out of your control, is that's not a reason to avoid going or using this service.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: They're trained.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, I interrupted you.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, you're right.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to I don't want to skip straight into that because that's a bit scary.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: But the truth is they can listen to what you said and they can say to you, listen, it's nothing.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry about it, go home, you're fine, you're safe.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: In which case, fantastic.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: If that's the case, I would say to them, that is great news.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to let you know I'm planning to leave on the 1st of December, or I'm planning to leave on the 1st of whatever.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a plan in place, let them know that that's when you plan to leave.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that in case they have underestimated the risk, at least it's on record that you that you're afraid and that they they need to be aware of that something might happen, okay, just to be just to be absolutely safe.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And no harm can come from that, right?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: That that they know it's happening because that's their job, it's what they're paid to do is to protect us.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, as you say, so so it doesn't necessarily mean things have happened, it just means that um you prioritise your safety and somebody knows what's happening, somebody's looking up here and making sure you're okay.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, as I said, if they decide it's actually serious abuse and they're worried about your safety, they have a range of um mechanisms they can apply for a protection order on your behalf, or they can ask that he be removed from the house for a certain period of time or until a protection order is put in place.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, so if that's what they say is necessary, then actually that's what you need to be safe.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: We need to trust the police because this is what they do, this is their job.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I would I would encourage anybody who's leaving to please go and see the police, but get the right police person.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you've got the time to give them a whole the whole story about what's going on, and then they will be responsible for looking after you moving forward.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: Perfect, perfect, thank you.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: You mentioned um intervention orders.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: So let's talk about intervention orders.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: How does how does someone go about having an intervention order, a family violence intervention order put in place?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: What's involved?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: So um domestic violence orders are state-based rather than federal.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: So there's no family law is run by the federal government, but the protection orders are state-based.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so the process will vary between states.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I probably can't give you detailed information about how it works.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what I can tell you, so we're in Queensland.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um what I can tell you is that um there's two ways a protection order can be put in place, as we call it in Queensland.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one is the police can initiate it, and the second is it can be privately initiated.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so a lawyer can do it, but the police can do it.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the advice I all usually give is to let the police do it.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is what they do, you know, day in, day out, they're they're bringing protection orders, they know what information they need, they know how to prove it's necessary and desirable.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, also, it's a hell of a lot cheaper than paying, you know, a lawyer lots of money an hour to put in place.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, as hard as it is, I would say trust the police.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And as I say, I know they've got a terrible reputation, but yes, there are some bad apples, I'm sure, but mostly the police are good people who are trying to do a job.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they're now getting the training they need to really understand the dynamics of domestic violence.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: So now more than ever, you can trust them.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem is if you don't trust the police, who do you trust?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Protect you, even your lawyer can't protect you.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: All the lawyer can do is make an application on your behalf.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, so I would say let the police uh do make the protection order on your behalf if they believe it's necessary and just follow their guidance.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, you mentioned that the police have capacity to ask someone to leave a house in in this sort of situation.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: That was going to be my next question.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: Is it possible to stay in the home and have your partner or your soon-to-be ex-partner removed or have them leave?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: So, how how does that how does that happen?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if I'm experiencing family violence, I go to the um family violence liaison officer in my police station and say, I've got three children, I want him out so that I can I can stay in the house.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: How does it how does it happen?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: So they will make an application for what's called an ouster order, which is the same as a it's the same process as a protection order.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's they will fill out the paperwork, they'll take your statement, they'll write down everything that's happened, they'll go to a magistrate and they'll say to the magistrate, um, we would like an order made that he be removed from the home.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: If it's really urgent, sometimes they can um uh sometimes they can make an urgent application so that it happens quickly.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but that that's how that works.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: They get they get the permission to have him removed from the home, and then the police will come to home and say to the person being asked if it's time to go, please collect your things, and they'll make sure that it happens.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: And a question that I'm often asked in, you know, not necessarily by my one-on-one clients, but just sort of in communities and forums that I'm a part of is if I am the one to leave because of family violence, I leave, I take kids if I've got them, I take pets if I've got them.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Can I then get back into the house after that person's, or you know, is it possible to then have the perpetrator ousted and I get back into the house?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of people I come up against or come into contact with are frightened to leave because they're frightened of leaving everything behind and losing everything and losing access to the house.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: So what would be your what are your thoughts on on that?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is also it's a it's a difficult question.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's something of a grey area.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um what I like to say, until you've got financial property orders in place, sorry, financial orders in place or property settlement, um, where we are is frontier land.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Which so what it means, so there's practically and there's legally.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: So from a practical perspective, if he stays in the house and changes the locks, there's not a lot you can do about that until financial settlement takes place, which could take we take months.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So from a practical perspective, um it makes things more difficult.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: From a legal perspective, it doesn't matter if he's on the title or you're on the title or it's joined, from a legal perspective, it doesn't matter who owns the house.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: The house will be included in the property pool.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: You'll have to put it into the balance sheet when you're determining property settlement.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're worried that if you leave the house, it means you lose all legal rights to it.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: He will get the house, don't worry about that.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's not going to happen.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: So the value of that property needs to be included in the pool, and it will be when you do the property server.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: From a practical perspective, yeah, there's that risk about being able to go back in.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: And again, that comes down to prioritizing your your physical, your your safety, physical, mental, emotional well-being.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Is it better for you to leave, take what you can, leave, be safe, go to a safe space, let him change the locks, or if that's what happens, and follow the legal path of settlement, property settlement.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a difficult decision.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, that kind of leads back to your initial question, which is also how do you prepare to leave?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, have a go bag.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, have it, it's it can be difficult.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, obviously everybody has a different situation.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what how, you know, if you've got a big house or a small house or an apartment, how do you hide something like that?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: But if you can have a suitcase that's got the things in it that you need, that will that you need just for a month or two, if you go to your parents or you go to a friend's house, that's gonna be really helpful because what it means is you then have the option, if you can't get the ask for order, to then leave, but you've got what you need for the for the immediate funding.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: And and have that plan in place too about where you where you're actually going to go so that you're not leaving in the middle of the night with with no plan.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um what about afterwards?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: Now if if you're then going to onto no little negotiate, I'm trying to say, negotiate property settlement and child caring arrangements with the perpetrator of family violence, you know, there are going to be times that you'll need to be in contact or perhaps have to be physically near.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you know, you are still handing over children, etc.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: So can you then speak to, I guess, the legal as well as the practical arms of dealing with that?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so again, it's difficult to know exactly, like we're talking about large variances in treatment and behavior, but if you're looking at somebody who's been abusive, which is likely, particularly if you're walking on eggshells in your marriage, that kind of thing, ideally there'll be no contact.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like we've I know we've spoken about this before, no contact is the ideal, you have literally no contact with him at all because every contact will involve some form of emotional abuse.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what we're aiming for is no contact.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, if you have children and changeovers, that's difficult.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it the aim should be to completely have no contact at all.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a couple of ways that I recommend that you you make this happen so that it's easier, um, particularly when have children.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the ways is with changeovers, for example, that the changeover takes place at school if the children are school-aged rather than anybody's home, or McDonald's is a very popular changeover point because it's you just get out of the car, they can go in, they can all that kind of stuff.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: The second way I tend to suggest that you reduce contact physically is don't take phone calls and don't take text messages, don't interact by text message.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because the text message is a again a direct route to your subconscious, so it's a direct, it can be a direct emotional attack.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I say set up an email address at the beginning that is the name of your children, for example.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, don't call it you're a dirty stinking asshole at hotmail.com.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: This might inflame things a little bit.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is that as tempting as that would be?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to, but yeah, no, just call it the children's email or give them the names, whatever.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's an email address.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's set up purely for the purpose of interacting and discussing the children.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is assuming you don't have lawyers, or if you do have lawyers, and anyway.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So these are just the practical steps.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so uh yeah, set up the email, review the email at times that you're feeling safe and good.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I had a client once that said, Do it Monday morning, she said, Oh god, I hate Mondays.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: So she said where you feel most solid and yeah, strong and and and safe.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Safe.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Safe and happy and and balanced.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then you read the emails, you give yourself a window of heart and out to 45 minutes to read the emails and respond, and then you close that email address and you let him go.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if he continues to text you, you cut, you cut and paste a copy of the text message into the email, you say, here's your text message, here's how I'm responding.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: An email.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: This has two two effects.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: One is you get to decide when he comes into your life, so it's a great boundary.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: The other is it tends to affect it does affect the way that the other side will interact with you.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um people tend to think you can't cut and paste a text message into an affidavit.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: You can.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: So there's something to be said about actually, it's great evidence when you're sending really nasty text messages.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: But more important is your mental health and safety.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens with these emails is that is that they're generally more aware that this email is something that is going to be cut and pasted into an affidavit.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: So they're more careful with the way they interact.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we want.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: We want you to feel safe.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want you to be continually attacked by the person.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: You've touched on exactly what I was going to ask next, which is safety.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: So how can someone who's leaving keep themselves safe physically, mentally, emotionally?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: So, what do you suggest when your clients you know need to put these boundaries around their own safety in place?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: So the first step is to find somebody who's going to protect your emotional well-being.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so often tell my clients contact Sally and Hartnell at Reflect Coaching because you are the one who can protect them emotionally, and you're you're amazing at it.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, you're just a guru when it comes to that.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so so emotionally you want somebody who's going to whole space for you, and that's you, or that's a counsellor.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: I I probably actually steer away from psychologists, I have to be honest.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I prefer coaches and counsellors, um, purely because a psychologist is this is trained to find that there's a problem and then solve it.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas when you're in an emotionally abusive relationship, often the problem is not you.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: The other side.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you just want somebody to help you bring back the sense of self.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: Just before we dive into the second part of this episode, if there are things that are resonating with you in this particular episode, this is your invitation.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: I would love to jump on a free intro call with you to chat through coaching options.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: There's always a link in the bio to book a call directly in my calendar.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing I'd love for you to do is to share this episode with anybody you know who might be supported by it.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of legally keeping safe, it again comes back to the no contact.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the legal process often will require you to come into contact with the perpetrator.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Every step there are ways that you can keep yourself back a little bit.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And COVID was actually fantastic for that.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: I hate to say it, but the courts had to do a lot of the court events online through Teams, Microsoft Teams, the family court, which is the federal jurisdiction.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that continues to this day.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like in the olden days, what used to happen was you'd have so say you did go to family court, you'd have your first court event, which is just it's just a procedural mention, you'd have to pitch up, find yourself a safe wherein, you know, it was difficult.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: You'd both be in there together talking to the judge, emotionally devastating.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now the first court event is always on Microsoft Teams, which means you just dial in from your home, you don't even have to see him, he's usually off camera.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you've got your your cat or your dog or whatever emotional, you know, whoever you can pet pat when you're starting to feel treated, it's great.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um mediation is the big one where and sorry, so in the court process, if you're in the court process, the only time you need to go to court really is if you have a final hearing and sometimes an intro hearing.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I need to tell everybody that only 3% of separating couples end up in a final hearing.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I think a lot of the fear of leaving is I'm gonna end up in family court and we're gonna, I'm gonna cross-examination, like cross-examined.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we immediately our anxious mind goes immediately to the end game and thinks no, I can't cope with that.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: But like I just want to say it's only three percent, very rare to get to that point.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so if you're in the court process, you don't really need to um be exposed to him.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: The only time that it might happen is mediation.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've got a lawyer, obviously, the lawyer will do the negotiating on your behalf.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you've got a mediation, what I would recommend is don't do mediation in person.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: So a mediation is obviously where you have both parties either represented or not, and you have a mediator who doesn't have decision-making power, they're more like a referee in a soccer game.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: So they're kind of trying to help you get to a resolution either of property or of parenting matters.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of protecting yourself emotionally, attend by Zoom.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty much all the mediators now offer Zoom mediations, and then choose: do you want to sit with your lawyer for the emotional sport?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or would you rather be again in your own home with your own things, your pets?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of integrating your emotional wellness and the legal system, that's how I'd say I would do it.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Make as much use as you can of the fact that technology now allows you not to have to be in the same room with the guidance, I think.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: What about um post-separation?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, potentially still negotiating, going through property settlement, child caring arrangements, and you are handing over children at McDonald's or at school or whatever.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: But the cycle of abuse is continuing via the children.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: Emotional abuse.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: How I guess I want to ask a couple of things here.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: How are we best how are we how do we best protect our children?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: How do we scaffold them without the perpetrator accusing us of alienation?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know that that pattern of the parent is trying to protect children from perpetrator, however, that can look like without full visibility on the on the family violence, that can look like alienation.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: What are your tips and suggestions around that situation?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and as we know, parental alienation as a concept is a junk science.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was developed by somebody who was abusive and trying to, you know, children who were actively just saying I don't like him because he's awful to me.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was considered it was mum's fault because she was alienating dad.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's crazy.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: People are recognising this.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it is getting less and less.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, there's a lot of there's a lot in this question.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: So stop me if I start to ramble.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there's there's some changes in the law that are also going to help on that front.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll start again with the practical and then we'll switch to the legal.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: From a practical perspective, from what I've read, and obviously I'm not a psychologist, um, but I'm a mum, and so constantly reading about children um and family work.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um if you denigrate your partner, so say you have separated someone, and he is a complete asshole.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you say to your children at any age, so this is whether they're two or whether they're 15, children believe that that's you're talking about them.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: So children believe that they are part of their parent for a long time.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm 48, I'm still struggling to individuate my parents.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, life's not in journey, eh?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: My journey.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it can happen at any age, but what's important to remember is when you want to say he's a complete arsehole and he did this and he shouldn't do that, what your child is hearing is I'm an arsehole.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Mum hates it.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you can remember that, it's gonna help you to stop.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because and because you what you're doing is you're protecting your child by not denigrating their parent.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because what you're doing is you're actually harming your child when you denigrate it the other side, right?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is we all have once we've been through this, we want to protect our children from these kind of predators.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what I recommend help them understand it with people who aren't their bad.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if they're being, if something happens at school, say it's a daughter and there's a a friend who's just being a bit nasty and making the daughter feel bad about themselves, you say to your daughter, you don't have to be around somebody who makes you feel bad about yourself.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have an obligation to this person to stay her friend, you don't have any obligation to fix her, you're allowed to just leave and make other friends.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And what happens is children, and the same thing with a son, you know, you've been bullied at school.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go and talk to the teacher about it.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: This kid is bullying you not because there's something wrong with you, but because there's something wrong with him.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: He wants control over you, he wants to have power of you, he wants to make you feel bad about yourself.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's why he's you know bathing you up or throwing things at you, or that's not your problem, and that doesn't make you a bad person, that makes him a really bad person, and we're gonna get you some help.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And in that way, what you're doing is you're teaching children about boys, which is what perpetrators of abuse are.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're still young boys.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And kids are really smart.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think we we really underestimate them.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Once you teach them that lesson, they will figure it out for themselves, what's happening with dad, and they'll also figure out that they're important enough to be protected and they don't deserve to be treated badly.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think the reason our generation has such a problem with this, the reason why so many of us of our age are in abusive relationships, is that when we were kids, if a boy you know flicked the bra strap, we were told it's because he likes us.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: So let's change that hold on that.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody touches you physically or otherwise, no, it's not because they like you, it's because they are a bad person and you need to stay away from them.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: So give them the lesson, but not when it comes to their own father, because that's more damaging to them than often.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the practical.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: You ready for legal?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, we're ready.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Very exciting.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very excited, I have to say.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: So the last time we spoke, the law, the Family Law Act said that you have to have a meaningful, you have to promote a meaningful relationship with both parents, right?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Best interest of the child includes meaningful relationship unless there's abuse.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: This created a whole host of problems because women were making children spend time with horribly abusive fathers.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: And look, it does go the other way, obviously, that they're abusive mothers, and it was meaning fathers had to make children available to abusive mothers.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it goes both ways.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what's happening on the 6th of May, May 2024, so just a couple of months, is that they are taking away that requirement.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So the best interest of the child test now is best interests of the child, yeah, not mean for relationship.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: So what they're doing is instead of saying it's all about the rights of the parents to see their children, it's not, it's about the right of the child to be safe and to be happy.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the second change that's coming that is fantastic, is that the um the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is being incorporated, so it's being codified into our Family Law Act.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's so exciting.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know I'm surprised though how many family lawyers are afraid?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: They're worried because they think it's gonna that because they don't know what it's gonna mean, they're worried all these people are gonna come out of the woodwork and try and redo their parenting orders.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, I really hope so.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I really hope that this changes everything.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if it doesn't, I'll be disappointed.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I want this to change everything because what what it has to happen, and what I'll be pushing for, obviously, as a family lawyer, is that we stop looking at the rights of the parents, we look at the rights of the child and we listen to the voice of the child.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what that that um UN Treaty is all about.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about the the voice of the children, listening to what the children say and what's important to them.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think um just by virtue of this legislative change, this whole parental alienation concept in particular is going to have no place.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: It can't have right.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: This the concept of parental alienation suggests that children have no independent thought, they're just mouthpieces for their mother.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which, as anyone who's a mum knows, is totally not true.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, children have their own desires and needs, and the fact that the Family Law Act and the Family Law Courts are now going to recognise that voice, I think is just is very exciting.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a really powerful shift.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've I've spent a lot of my parenting.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um mine are now 19 and 21, but I spent a lot of time parenting them to um to believe in themselves, to believe in their own knowing, to believe in, you know, I didn't use the word intuition, but I, you know, if it feels wrong in your gut, it probably is, you know, whether that be um teenage risk-taking behaviour or a kid who's treating them badly in a playground environment, right?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, as parents, and I know a lot of my clients work with we work with our kids to really believe in and trust themselves.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I think this whole parent parental alienation, you know, equal, equal good care, which you know, all of that stuff, it just goes, it teaches them that to go against that.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: If they're saying, I don't want to spend time with this person, they make me feel unsafe.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm gonna I'm actually getting a bit emotional about it because I I it really fires me up, you know.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: We our our kids need to be heard in in our families and in our court system and in our legal system.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: They need a voice that is heard because who else?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: Who else is best in terms of giving themselves them themselves?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: They know, they know in their bodies, and if we teach them and and guide them and support them to trust that knowing, and then the law asks them to step over it because hey, you've got to have a meaningful relationship with this person.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it drives me completely insane if I'm true, if I'm truthful.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: So not long, not long to go.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I hope it does shift things and shape things up like you.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's gonna be amazing.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: And um I mean, the only difficulty is sometimes you do get perpetrators who do um tell lies to their children about the other party, like especially parent fathers who tell lies to the children about mum, and then the children react to that.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um but again, giving a voice to the child means the child can say, Well, I hate mum because dad said that she cheated on him and she, you know, took all his money or whatever it was.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: And same with with the mother, all of that can come out when you make sure that the voice of the child is prioritized rather than the rights of the parent.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: All of those truths are going to come out because I believe, like you, I believe that children know that you know, if they if they're encouraged to follow their instincts, they'll make good choices for themselves.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: But when that's taken away, it actually what it does is it creates them what it does to them is it makes them the perfect candidate for marrying and perpetrating themselves.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: When they're told their voice doesn't matter, their instincts don't matter, they don't get to choose.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly the kind of person who uh is going to be controlled when they get married.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's what I say to friends is you want the daughter who's gonna say no.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: I actually encourage my children to say no.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: I sometimes I ask them to walk the dog because I know they hate it, so they'll say no.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: Encouraging your what's you know, it's it is powerful, encouraging our children to say no, to have a voice, to speak up for themselves.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, as a as a healthy parent, you can have a discussion and a negotiation and come to some kind of compromise or solution.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: But it's really important that kids feel safe to say no, emotionally safe, physically safe, absolutely.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's all about boundaries.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: Abuse is about the breaching of boundaries at its core, it's about power, it's about controlling another person, and it's about not letting another person have their own boundaries or their own feelings or thoughts.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And as I said, I think from our generation, you know, we came from the generation that was told we had to sit on Santa's knee.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And even if Santa was scary and we didn't want to do it, you don't know, you know, sit on his knee because I told you to.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then we came and everyone's surprised why we all married men who told us what to do and abused us, you know.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, if we can give our children that that centrality and we can make them, well not make them, obviously.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: Support them to discover for themselves.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the great news is that that wonderful parenting uh approach is now supported by the family courts.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to say to somebody if you're worried about leaving, because you've heard horror stories about women whose children were taken away from them, given to the perpetrator, and I will tell you that it happened a lot.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: That regime is over.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and the reason that that was happening is because meaningful relationship test meant if you were stopping the children from having a meaningful relationship with your father, you were considered to be a bad parent and the children were taken away.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope those women come back to the courts and try and get their children back.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: I really do.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the other great thing about the courts is that, as you know, in September 2021, they merged the two previously two ports, they now have one port.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: They've got a huge injection of government funding, and they've put on a like I think it's about 25 new registrars, they've got new pathways for property, for parenting, they've got DV specific, it's called the Lighthouse Project.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's now being run out across registries across Australia.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: So more than ever, the courts are now equipped to deal with people coming to them saying we need your help.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, equipped and trained.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: We've got trained people, better training in the police force, better training in the court system.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: And we all know, um, and as I shared with you when I reached out to ask you to come on and record this podcast, we all know that for some women um they're not safe.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: And for some women, it doesn't end well.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um and part of my reason for recording this is in memory of an ex a member of our extended family who lost her life.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I just want to acknowledge that that is the reality for some women, but again, it's a small percentage.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's a lot in the media, but it is a small percentage.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to minimize it at all.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's a real risk.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I hope through us sharing some of this stuff, we can encourage women, victims, family violence victims, to actually create safety for themselves and leave safely.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: Is there anything else that you would add that we haven't spoken about, Caroline?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think if there's if there's one thought that I'd like people to leave this podcast with, it is to trust yourself and trust your instincts.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if you feel like you're walking on X shells, if you feel like you're worried about his reaction, trust that feeling and don't be afraid to ask for help.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Society now is in a place where it's starting to understand coercive control in particular, it's starting to understand abuse.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I would encourage you, as we said at the beginning, reach out, reach out to counselors, to professionals, to even doctors.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they can if you're struggling with anxiety, with with complex trauma, which is off what it was relative to perpetrators, um abuse, you can put in a mental health plan.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe don't do that to the you know anyway.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to start giving psychological advice.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: But what I'm gonna say, what I'd say is yeah.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: Build reach out, create create a support team around you, including a GP, maybe a therapist, legal advice, go to the police, tell friends and family what's happening to you.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: Don't make it a secret.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: And when I say friends and family, do you do that selectively?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, build your support team.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I'm a bit careful with friends and family.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you go to a friend and tell them what's happening and they say to you, just try harder, it's so damaging.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: I know a lot of people have gone back into toxic relationships because again they felt that it's their fault.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Friends sometimes aren't the best.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: Find yourself supportive friends, friends who understand it, maybe friends who've been through it before.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's difficult to understand it until you've been through it.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody who won't tell you it's your fault and do the perpetrator's job for that.
• 43:28
  unknown: Exactly.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so so much for sharing your knowledge, wisdom with us.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's an important conversation.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: As I said at the beginning, it's a difficult conversation because, as we know, for some for some women, for some families, it ends badly.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: So hopefully this conversation can support someone to find the courage to build their support team and to leave safely.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Carolyn.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, Relationship Coach, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'd also be so grateful if you'd follow the podcast and review this episode so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more humans just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: I hope you'll join me next time for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_03: Until then.