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LA Times Bestselling Authors Karen Mack & Jennifer Kaufman x Main Chapter · Main Chapter

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, my book butterflies, and welcome to this week's episode of the May Chapter Podcast.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Brianna, and if you haven't already, please be sure to like and subscribe so we can continue growing and spreading our love of books with the entire world.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this week we are exploring a new genre on May Chapter, Crime Thriller.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I had the privilege to interview Karen Mack and Jennifer Kaufman earlier this summer, talking all about their new book, The Kings of Vegas.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: I actually initially met this duo at the lodge of it in Beverly Hills.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was super fun, it was Vegas themed, and it really drew me into the book, which is all about our lead Josie, who is the daughter of a casino owner.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: She grows up in Vegas, but then she actually leaves for LA when she turns 18 and she spends her adulthood there.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: However, she is forced to come back to Vegas and start working in a family business again when her father dies.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: But she quickly realizes that the Vegas that she knew no longer exist.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: And she's dealing with family drama, family mysteries that she needs to solve, all dealing with also the FBI and some mobsters.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: So there's lots of layers involved.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: And for my romance leaders, there is a romance subplot that's super hot with a rival casino owner.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And what's really interesting about this book is Karen Mack actually grew up in Vegas.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the side stories or things that Josie even experienced are based on true stories, which is super fun.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we talk all about that in this upcoming interview.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now you will notice something a little different, and is that my lighting setup for this interview is absolutely horrid by my standards.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: I did eventually record this interview with one of my regular setups with a floral wallpaper, nice lighting.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: However, it did not record.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: There was a glitch.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: However, their team was so gracious to let me record again.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: But the only problem was I was in London by that point in a hotel room that had did not have a window.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: I look like I'm in a cave.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: I did not have my ring light or my regular cameras.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: So while I look prehistoric, they look great, which is fine because interviews are not them.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: So don't pay attention to what I look like.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: But it's still a great conversation, and I hope you enjoy it.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: The show must go on, as I always say.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: So let's go ahead and roll the clip.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Alrighty, my dear.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Hello.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Hello.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much again.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: We are going to pretend that this is my first time asking these questions and my first time hearing your responses, but I'm I'm excited to have another great conversation.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: So of course we are here to talk about the kings of Vegas, but I'm really intrigued by both your relationships.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: You, this is your fourth book writing together.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm wondering how did you meet?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: How did this partnership form?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, um, it started because uh I was uh I was I am a producer of television shows and she is a journalist.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: She was working for 10 years at the LA Times, and I was doing a bunch of television movies, and we did a project together.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: And after the project was over, we became friendly, and I noticed that she was not in a funk.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: In a funk, in a funk.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would call her and what are you doing?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm reading.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm reading, I'm reading.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I actually do that when I'm in a funk.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: I read.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: I use books as a coping mechanism.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so she was doing that.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: I said, you know, we should just write something together about having this syndrome where you use books as a coping mechanism.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we actually started writing.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I said, I'll help you.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in between productions.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we started writing together and the process went really well.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, because I'm out of screenplays, I did a lot of the dialogue, she does a lot of description, how it initially started out.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now we both do both.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: But um, we wrote this book and we sent it into our agent, and over the weekend we got four offers from it.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it just, it was one of those things that just sort of just happened.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that book was um ended up being number one on the LA Times bestseller list because it turns out a lot of women have this syndrome.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people related to it, but um we all we both have different um attitudes about writing.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: We have different skills for sure.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and we are not soul sisters, we do not we're not sensitive to each other.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: We're very different, but for some reason we have the same uh sensibility when we write.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why, we just do.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so this book, um, we you know, this is our fourth book.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: So this book was more my story, but the other books have been more her story.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: But we still, there's a lot of dynamics in it that that we both contribute to.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: But we had through the years, I was telling her all these great stories about growing up in Las Vegas.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And through the years, she kept saying, You've got to put write them down, you have to put this in a book.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: So finally, book four, uh, we put it together and we focused on, you know, it's kind of, I was a casino family, and it's kind of um succession set in a Las Vegas family casino, and it's told from someone who actually lived it.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so even though a lot of the stories are mine, she contributes a lot in terms of the family dynamic and the sexiness.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can't have a book about Vegas without it being very sexy, and so we started out the book, boom.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: But we wanted also the slow burn.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: We wanted the whole Vegas thing and her unique life and her unique stories, but we also wanted some kind of a slow burn with a romance, so uh it worked perfectly because they they didn't trust each other and it was the casino world.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, your skills blend so beautifully together.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: I really enjoyed reading The Kings of Vegas, and the book you mentioned, Literacy and Longing in LA, is actually on my TBR because I too use books as a coping mechanism.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: I even have friends who will read 100 to 120 books a year, and they acknowledge that it is a problem, but it is what they do for their mental health.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: So there's so many people that can relate to it.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really cool that you two can write together.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: One of my favorite romance authors, Christina Lauren, is actually a best friend duo.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: And they said in a panel they actually don't fight at all when it comes to writing, they fight what other best friends fight about.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do you do do when you come to disagreements with certain plot points?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or does it just everything flow together?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think when we disagree, it's usually that doesn't work.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the other person doesn't argue about it.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Or that's flat or this is boring.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and you don't have a lot of ego about it, and we don't have to mince words, just that's boring, that doesn't work for me.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the other, and we don't have a long dis in-depth discussion about why it doesn't work.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, now it's pretty common because all the streamers have writers' rooms, you know, when when they're doing a series, and it's sort of like that.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: We and we read things aloud to each other, which really helps.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: But we have, I mean, I in the morning like the blank page, and she hates it.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: So when we start out, I I jump into it.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I procrastinate, which is what writers do.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: And once she starts, then I get on board.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: So we do have sort of a pattern.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: But we really don't have any of those.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think I tried at one point to have a friend of mine who's a writer give me notes, and somehow it didn't work.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't like her notes, I didn't like her attitude, even though she's a good friend of mine.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: It has to, it has to work on so many different levels so that you don't let the ego get in.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we we have a good time.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: We actually have fun.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's so great.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many layers that come into relationships and friendships and working relationships and being able to be blunt with one another is such an important part of that.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually at your book launch event, and I loved when you two talked about the book and what you were excited for it.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And what really intrigued me about it is how you said that a lot of the stories in the book are based off of true Las Vegas stories.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Vegas is such a foreign world to me.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: I only went once for like 48 hours on my 21st birthday, did the slots machine once, lost$5, and swore never again.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was reading the book, I was like, oh my gosh, has stuff like this actually happened?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was wondering, what is the craziest thing you put in the Kings of Vegas that's actually based off of a true story?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's so much crazy stuff that's in the Kings of Vegas.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and all of it is based on composite characters.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Almost everything in the book is true.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I grew up on a street where Ice Pick Willie lived across the street, and I thought that was a normal name.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And my girlfriend from school, her father was Dave the Man Berman.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: I thought the man was an ordinary name, but I'm a casino kid.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And my grandfather had a casino, my father had a casino, and we grew up running around casinos.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that whole thing with the eye in the sky, it looks, if you've ever been to a casino, if you look up, there are people in a one-way mirror looking down at you.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we used to run around up there.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: We put part of that in the book, the eye in the sky.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh a lot of the crazy, I mean, I I think some of the mob sayings, I'm not sure what finally made it in the book and didn't, but you know, that you're either at the table or on the menu.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a great one.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Just remember that for now.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: It comes in handy so many times.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, this uh it's Vegas is, it's a famous saying, but it's a sunny place for shady people.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so many of these stories um are real.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: My my growing up, my French class, yeah, my French class annual luncheon at the Sahara Hotel with our honored guests, the strippers from the Lido de Paris.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought that was I thought that was normal.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, when I was 12, but it's a misogynist world also.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in a misogynist world.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: These casinos would go from the father to the grandfather to the father and the son.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: I remember sitting in a red booth at my father's casino and in the showroom, and a man came up right.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was 12 years old, right in front of me, and he said, Can you get me some girls?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was a hotel amenity or a mint on his pillow.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we made the book sexy because you can't talk about Vegas without talking about women and sex, and this one woman was which was trying to get ahead in this misogynist world.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's part of it, how she her agency changes and how she pushes boundaries.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, pushes boundaries in all sorts of ways.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Particularly in the first chapter.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the what the what was the what the what was I thinking kind of one night stand.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: But we wanted to make it sexy and we wanted to make the guy the every woman's fantasy.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: So there are guys like that who are so cool in Las Vegas.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: There were a couple of them who were running casinos, and we just put them together in one guy, and it's just uh, you know, I think people like that.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: The the fantasy man and how she deals with them.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And can she trust him or or it or should she trust him?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: He's a competitor, so exactly.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: I primarily read romance books, so Rob's character, that subplot, was one of my favorite parts.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: But before I have a question about him, one of the most intriguing parts of the book too for me was how casino kids were treated almost as like bargains or held for ransom.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about tunnels being in home so they could escape, or I believe a story where Coke was planted on Josie so the FBI could frame her.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Did stuff like that actually happen to such young, young children?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the story about the coke being planted on someone was my partner's son.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um it turned out um he was being framed by the FBI.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: See, if you tell the real story, nobody can they wanted to use him so that his father would confess to something he wasn't doing.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, and uh a friend's daughter was actually kidnapped because people think of casinos just having free cash.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so just like bankers' kids sometimes are targets, well, casino kids are targeted too, because they figure the dad can go to the casino with a duffel bag and and leave him cash.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so that whole story about um, I don't want to give away plot, but the the danger for casino kids is real, although none of us ever had security.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: We just it it wasn't something that we thought about.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: We ran around, I mean, uh we ran a lot.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing I'm still alive.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Our after-school activities would talk about seatbelts.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: We they did have seatbelts, but we'd get into a truck with two guys driving and four of us hanging on the back, and there would be a twin truck, and we go out in the desert and race and hold on for dear life.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was a crazy childhood.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Colorful, colorful.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember, you know, when I here in uh I'm rose raised my kids in LA, and people are going, you know, make sure you've got this kind of car seat because it's the best kind of car seat.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking, oh my God.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's insane.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: As someone who grew up in like a Georgia suburb outside Atlanta in the Bible belt, seeing the different types of childhoods was just so fascinating to me.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: But going back to Rob, you said that you wanted him to be every woman's dream man, and he truly was with like this bachelor charisma, but we can see that he's such a hard worker.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: What was the most important thing that you wanted to put into his character?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think some of these guys who start casinos, they get into the they're first of all, the the guys who start casinos mostly are very charismatic guys in the old days, not now when it's all corporate and they're the bottom line, but in the old days, you know, in the 80s and 90s, and when they were family-owned, and people like Steve Wynne came to town.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: He's a very charismatic guy, the for Teter Brothers.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: These guys are very charismatic, and I think we wanted to show that that there's a side of them, they're they walk through the casino and they're like movie stars almost.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody knows who they are, and you know, everything is available to them like a movie star.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: They can have whatever woman they want.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's a and they have hotel suites and millions, you know, millions of dollars.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the kind of money that these guys make, even when they're very young.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we wanted to show uh a casino owner like a movie star, but they're very smart.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: The ones that succeed are very smart businessmen.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a lot of them are out of like Wharton, and other ones are just out of Texas and are just really smart about business.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that side of it, you have to be smart.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And he's smart and interesting and charming and charismatic, and I want to roll all those things in.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And sexy.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And sexy.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: They are.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: They are.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Vegas is a sexy place.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: These guys are sexy.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we wanted to show that kind of a character.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and the sexiness is definitely important.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: When you were signing my book at the book launch event, I remember I asked you both what your favorite part about writing the book was.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you, Karen, has said it was reliving your childhood, and you, Jennifer, said it was all sex, and that was definitely the full part of the book.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Two very different answers, both equally important.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And Rob made such a good counter uh partner to Josie.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And what I loved about her is we can see that she's this badass, intelligent, independent woman, but we also see how she changes throughout the book as she realizes Vegas has changed as well.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're developing your female leads, where do you start when it comes to their personality?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is it their strengths, their weaknesses, or something else entirely?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think with Josie, she some she drew out something out of her that she didn't even know she had because she she fled Vegas so many years ago because she couldn't stand the danger and the drama and she wanted a normal life.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: But when she came back to it, it all came back.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And she knew that in order to succeed in this world, she had to go into the gray area.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some of these guys say old casino, you know, I always did the right thing.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't always the legal thing, but I was I did the right thing.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: She grew up with guys like that, and so you know, uh hearing I I don't know if I mentioned the on the table.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, yeah.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're the old mob sayings, you're either uh on you're either at the table, you're either at the table or on the menu, which is a great one to remember.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: But the the other thing that um is very interesting to write is a woman who um has flaws.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, that hasn't been uh that's just sort of recently in literary fiction that you have a girl who is perfect in every way, but she has serious flaws.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: And um I think it's much more realistic.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: People relate to it much more, and uh she makes mistakes.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: She makes mistakes and she turns around and says, What was I thinking?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, which is what we all do.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: So that was the fun part of doing it.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we wanted to make her smart, and we actually made her a genius at card counting.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: She's a math genius, she's a she's a prodigy.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I grew up with a girl who at 12 years old, she could count cards in a casino.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: We'd go and sand on the side, and she could tell you who was gonna when the guy should hit and when he shouldn't.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that kind of a character that's actually a prodigy is very interesting too.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's not everyday people don't relate to that, but it was something she had hidden for years because to her it wasn't that interesting.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: But then, you know, she she found it very useful when she went back to Vegas.
• 18:47
  unknown: Yes.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: I love complex female characters.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's something we need more in media.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: I read a lot of romance, and a lot of times my critique is that the characters are almost too perfect, especially when it comes to the girls.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: So Josie was so refreshing for me to see.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: You had mentioned the gray area, and that is such a big theme of the book because Las Vegas is not black or white.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Even the last line of the book, I'm no angel, really stood out for me.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like sometimes people read when they want escapism and everything to be buttoned up in a happily ever after.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think readers might respond to kind of being left in this gray area where there is a promising future, but it's not like everything is perfect?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think my one of my favorite reviews was it's a hell of a ride.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Sit down in your chair, lay, you know, this summer, read a great summer book that's a hell of a ride.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what we wanted to get people, give people is a hell of a ride.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in order to be realistic, we had to leave her in the gray area because she had to succeed, and she couldn't be the woman she was, the accountant from LA.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: She had in order, she had to do what she needed to do to save her legacy, and that became for her grandfather and her father, she had to save her legacy and she had to do whatever she needed to do.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people relate to that.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I found her family dynamics really interesting.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: We see the four siblings, Sunny, Sam, Frank, and Josie.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really interesting that they all grew up in a similar environment.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, every kid has parents with favorites, so they had a little bit of different treatment, but they all turned out so different.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: We see problems with abuse and addiction and deadbeat marriages.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Why was it important to you to have these family dynamics at the forefront of this book?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think f Sam, first of all, who was everybody's favorite, these families that I knew in Vegas, there was always a golden child, the the kid that had everything.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: He was smart, he was charismatic, he was going to take over the casino.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then the problems started.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, and then uh I think we wanted to do a realistic family story.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's always a brother that if you never talk to him again, you're okay.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: So my sister who shares everything with her husband, and you say to her, don't tell anybody, and she tells her husband.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: So everybody has that.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can't keep secrets from my husband.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, uh, I think we wanted to make everybody different.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: You you sometimes see people and sisters and brothers who grow up in the exact same home, and they are so different.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's pretty common.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it can be common.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: So do you think there's going to be any casino families in Vegas who might read your book and think, oh my gosh, this is about this is about me?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I already had three girlfriends because the book came out yesterday saying you wrote about this family, you wrote about this family.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's a composite.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So there are definitely.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's it's it's a defin uh definitive uh Definite composite of all these different people and families.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, people are trying to guess which one was the biggest influence.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Fair enough, fair enough.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the biggest things in the book is the FBI, which was really intriguing to me because I'm used to watching Law and Order and all these crime thriller television shows where the FBI kind of comes in as this savior, versus in the book, they actually can harm you more than hurt you.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, what was your influence behind giving the FBI this role in Josie's story?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: I remember growing up and they were tapping every phone in town.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you were part, if you even had a whiff of a casino, they would tap your line.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember as a teenager picking up the phone and you'd hear a click, and I'd go, I know you're on the phone, you stupid FBI people.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up as a teenager hating them.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: And they would be always cruising with vans around following people and um trying to get people to confess.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing is, there were they would give you witness protection, which really didn't turn out to be witness protection.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: So nobody trusted them in those days.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um they trust them more now, I guess.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now that the corporations have moved in and the SEC, it's a different world.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: So so so interesting.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: The FBI was trying to listen into some teenage gossip, trying to hear if they can get anything else.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I also heard that the Kings of Vegas has been picked up for an adaptation, which is so, so exciting.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: A bidding war is amazing.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Congratulations.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: What are you most, of course, what are you most excited about in seeing this book come to life on screen?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's gonna, we met with the writer, and I think it's gonna be very exciting because she really gets it and she's got family in Utah and family in Nevada, and she's Mormon.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And she understands what it's like to grow up in Vegas, uh, a little bit, although not in terms of the casino, but just in terms of the culture.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, she she understands it, she gets it, and I think for me, always when I was doing television movies, casting can make or break.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna be executive producers on the series.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully we will have some input, and I'm gonna be very tough now because sometimes I said, Oh, okay, and then they ruin the movie.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's gotta be some.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think casting Josie and Rob for me are gonna be the most exciting, and we will probably have the most discussions about.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, casting can truly make or break a show, and definitely the essence of it is important too.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm happy you have a writer you can trust and who gets the culture.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: I know a lot of authors don't get a lot of say when their books get picked up or adaptation.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's great that you get to both be executive producers, having experience on both sides in television and now also coming from the author's perspective.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: What is that like?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: How do you balance the two?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think when I was a television producer, I know that authors sometimes had unrealistic expectations.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um they would, well, why is this taking so long?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand how come it's taking so long.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: You just write a screenplay.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think our expectations are more reasonable as to the process and how long it takes.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And also, I think uh I used to like dealing with authors who were who were pros, who had had books before, and you could call the old director or the old producer and say, so were they a lot of trouble?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or were they okay?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: But going back to casting, I think in terms of casting also, the thing that ruins the picture for me is if there's really no chemistry between the two people.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: So between Rob and Josie, it has to be hot.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa burned, it has to be hot, and I think you know, sometimes a director will have the two of them in a room before he finalizes it.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I would suggest that because how many movies have you seen where there's just no heat?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like there should have been, but there isn't.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then there are other movies where they just look at each other, they don't even say anything, and it's a slow burn.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's gonna be something that we're gonna get very involved with.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, forced chemistry can make something so hard to watch.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I am excited to see Rob and Josie come to life because they had such hot, sexy chemistry on the book in the book.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: We have a few minutes left, so I always like to end with some fun questions.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And Jennifer, I know you were a journalist, you were at the LA Times, and you actually used to write a book column with Karen.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really can I'm really curious.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think makes a great book?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like what is that defining factor for you?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh, I don't know.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it depends on the genre, I guess.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, for me, um, I love the classics and I love mysteries, and um it just um it has to it has to grab you.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: You have to say to yourself, and what happened then?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: And what then?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't want to know what happened then, then you don't finish the book.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: What happens next?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, what makes a great book is you can't not finish it.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: You have to, every time you're alone, you have to keep going.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, those types of books cause a lot of all-nighters for me.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: I and I always like to ask authors if there is a trope or a cliche in books that they are absolutely sick of or swear they could not write.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: I interview a lot of romance authors, and a lot of times they say the unplanned pregnancy trope, people really hate that one.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: But for you, what is a trope that you automatically want to put the book down when you read it, or you say that you would never write it yourself?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's when she starts getting sick.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're all invested in this woman and all of a sudden she starts coughing and you know it's going down a bad route.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like cancer books.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: If I, if some, I mean, a lot of them, you know, oh, she had so many months to live, and what did she do in those months?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like that.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I like I I hate to say happy endings, but I I like something that where she doesn't, I don't like the protagonist to die at the end.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that's pretty common in books.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think that's something that people think, oh, this is gonna be an important book.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: So she has to die at the end.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm tired of that.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it could be an easy way out sometimes to either try to make an impact when they could have done so much more, they had so much potential.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I can I can agree with that trope.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: What about what about you, Jennifer?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what kinds of tropes?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't like it when um I had something in my mind and then I forgot.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one of the things I can go back to production, one of the things that used to drive me crazy when I was just working at a studio and while producing is when they would just uh you'd get in a big fight with an actor and they weren't going to come back to the series.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of just having them go take, you know, uh they're they're on a sabbatical for a year, they kill off the character that you really like.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can't go back.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people did all sorts of things in the old days to they killed off uh in this show called Dallas, they killed off whoever one of them, JR, and they had to make in the then he just then they got their negotiation done and the actor was gonna come back.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: So then they had to make all it was just a bad dream.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't really but there are a lot of TV shows where the main character dies and you get very upset and you don't even want to watch it anymore.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh, I know what it is.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's like in a lot of the romance books, I mean I do enjoy them, and but what I don't like is the cliche that the two people hate each other in the beginning and then they end up being lovers.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you know in the first or second chapter that if they hate each other, they're gonna end up being together.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I but I like that.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we have someone who loves enemies to lovers and someone who's anti-enemies to lovers.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I love a good enemies to lovers, so we'll have to we'll have to debate on that one.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: I love I love it.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I read a lot of enemies of lovers, academic rivals to lovers.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's cliche, but I I eat it up every time.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as my Las Vegas experts, what would you say is the best casino or hotel on the strip?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: If I was planning to go back to Vegas, where where should I go?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: I would stay at the win.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: The reason I like the win is it's not as big and crazy as some of the other hotels.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And there is a uh a tunnel.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: No, not a tunnel, a bridge that goes from the wind to the sphere.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And if you haven't seen a show in the sphere, it's like the next level of seeing a concert.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like when it used to be radio and it went to television.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I so that's a great weekend.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Find out who's at the sphere, stay at the win, and you can have dinner at the win and then walk over and see an amazing show at the sphere.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: That would be my recommendation.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds like the perfect weekend trip.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have to put that on my 2026, 2027 travel bucket list.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: And like the Eagles, the Eagles are coming back.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: So You know what?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't listen to the Eagles too much, unfortunately, but maybe I'll try to get into them before the collections started.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're millennial, and I've heard I heard Adele Adele was gonna come.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: I wish they were trying to get her.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm 25 and I listen to Adele, so I can I can get behind behind Adele.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: So my final question to bring us back to the kings of Vegas what is one sentence you would use to convince people to read this book.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: One sentence.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think fast-paced page turner, suspense-packed thriller with romance.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also people like family stories, and this is a succession set in a Las Vegas family casino, and there's a lot of humor in it, and I I I guess the the word people keep telling us is a page turner, so it's a fun summer book.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And what about you, Jennifer?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, the same, the same.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: You have to know.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it's what happens next that grabs people.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So well, I love that well, I love that.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, congratulations on the book and the adaptation.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to recommend this book to all my friends and family and see what happens next.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Have a great day.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoyed that.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure to read The Kings of Vegas if you haven't already, and keep out for that adaptation because I'm super excited about it.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, next episode, I am bringing back my friend Katie, as well as a couple of my other friends.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now, last season I did Dark Romance Reader versus Dark Romance Fearer, where Katie talked all about mafia romance, the appeal of it, and I kind of picked her brain as someone who doesn't read that genre.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're doing it again, but with alien romance.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: My Ice Planet Barbarian fans, this is for you.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: And anyone else who reads alien romance or some taboo romance genre, I think this is gonna be a fun one.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's four of us, and I love these girls so, so much.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to pick their brain about why they like alien romance and what's the appeal and why people should read it.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if they'll be able to convince me, maybe they'll be able to convince you, but I hope you come back for it and have a great week, my book butterflies.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you next time.