Latest / The You Project / #2042 Understanding Trauma - Scott Douglas

Transcript

#2042 Understanding Trauma - Scott Douglas · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: I've got our term. It's of your project. It's harped.
0:03
Speaker 1: It's Scott Douglas, Scotty Douglas, paramedic, man about town, chef,
0:11
Speaker 1: exotic dancer, author, poet, creative genius who's been on the
0:18
Speaker 1: show before, and he's back.
0:19
Speaker 2: High mate, how are you? Thank you very much. You're
0:22
Speaker 2: going to make me cry again. Last time you said
0:24
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of good stuff to me, I cried.
0:26
Speaker 2: Do you remember, well? Yeah, yeah, I do.
0:28
Speaker 1: Well, I mean you are that. It's funny like I'm
0:32
Speaker 1: one of those people that if I take the piss
0:35
Speaker 1: out of you, I like you. You know. That's the
0:38
Speaker 1: way that And it's maybe I don't know if that's
0:40
Speaker 1: sometimes I generalize and go, oh, that's a bloke thing,
0:43
Speaker 1: but clearly it's not all blokes. But I tend to
0:47
Speaker 1: make fun of a in a loving way that people,
0:50
Speaker 1: or take the piss out of the people that I
0:53
Speaker 1: care about. That's that's almost my love language. When someone
0:56
Speaker 1: calls me a silly cunt, I just want to cuddle them.
1:00
Speaker 1: You know, it depends on the context, I guess, but no,
1:04
Speaker 1: you're a gun.
1:05
Speaker 2: I love talking to.
1:06
Speaker 1: You because I love learning from you. I love listening
1:08
Speaker 1: to your stories, and you know, I think that, like,
1:12
Speaker 1: if I'm listening to a podcast, I want it to
1:15
Speaker 1: be organic and real and conversational. I don't want it
1:17
Speaker 1: to be some boring, prescripted, fucking monologue. So Scott questioned
1:22
Speaker 1: one about tell me about your childhood.
1:27
Speaker 2: Oh Jesus, that's a If I actually did tell you
1:29
Speaker 2: about my childhood, Craig, it would be a lot. It
1:31
Speaker 2: would be a series of podcasts, and there would probably
1:35
Speaker 2: be a few traumatic events involved. It wouldn't be pleasant. Unfortunately,
1:42
Speaker 2: we might open that door one day.
1:43
Speaker 1: Tell everyone why you and I You can throw me
1:46
Speaker 1: under the bus. Tell everyone why you and I are
1:49
Speaker 1: now doing this for the third time. As if you
1:54
Speaker 1: want me to tell you how particular podcast, how inept
1:57
Speaker 1: I am.
2:00
Speaker 2: Well, you're talking about the podcast the other day when
2:02
Speaker 2: you were talking about no sea bows and stuff like that.
2:06
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the fact that you and I recorded
2:08
Speaker 1: an hour yesterday. Oh and I didn't fucking push the buttons.
2:14
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, yes, so yes you did that. We had
2:16
Speaker 2: a lovely conversation yesterday, which was great. I was very happy.
2:21
Speaker 2: I was nervous at the start we got into it. It
2:23
Speaker 2: was really cool. And then invertently, you rang me yesterday
2:26
Speaker 2: after said you want the good news or the bad news,
2:29
Speaker 2: and you said the podcast was great, but we didn't
2:32
Speaker 2: record it. So here we are again Wednesday morning recording.
2:37
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm excited, Well, me too.
2:41
Speaker 1: And then we started also ten minutes ago and I
2:43
Speaker 1: fucked up. So this is actually the third TEMP. But anyway,
2:48
Speaker 1: all right, so give us something from your childhood, Like,
2:53
Speaker 1: let's not do the whole thing you said. If we
2:55
Speaker 1: did open the door on your childhood, it could be wow,
2:58
Speaker 1: a multi episode ex abganza. Okay, what's something fascinating and
3:05
Speaker 1: memorable from your childhood that's going to blow our socks
3:07
Speaker 1: off or at least interest us.
3:10
Speaker 2: I probably ran away half a dozen times. I used
3:12
Speaker 2: to sleep on people's floors from about the age of
3:15
Speaker 2: about thirteen to about sixteen or seventeen. Like unfortunately, I
3:19
Speaker 2: grew up in a very violent household and my dad
3:24
Speaker 2: was like a chronic alcoholic and incredibly violence. So on
3:28
Speaker 2: a regular basis, I used to run away, and I like,
3:31
Speaker 2: I slipped in the train station and the gentleman in
3:34
Speaker 2: the train station was absolutely amazing. He made me cup
3:37
Speaker 2: of tea, gave me biscuits to eat and let me
3:39
Speaker 2: sleep in the parcel room of the train station because
3:43
Speaker 2: that was you could lock it from the train station,
3:45
Speaker 2: but when the train would pull up, they could open
3:48
Speaker 2: the door to drop off parcels or take parcels out.
3:51
Speaker 2: So I slept in there, and I slept on top
3:53
Speaker 2: of a whole bunch of warm newspapers that had been delivered.
3:57
Speaker 1: Wow.
3:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was probably about were you when I
4:01
Speaker 2: thirteen or fourteen when I did that? And I never
4:03
Speaker 2: forget that. Man. I'm actually sorry, I'm getting a little
4:07
Speaker 2: bit emotional about it, but that for me, that gentleman
4:10
Speaker 2: probably at the time like a complete stranger. He's literally
4:13
Speaker 2: a fucking train station dude in a country town. I
4:16
Speaker 2: turned up, was sitting on the platform and he said,
4:20
Speaker 2: are you going home? And I said no, And he
4:22
Speaker 2: asked me where I'd come from and I told him
4:24
Speaker 2: and which was really really far away, and I'd basically
4:26
Speaker 2: walked to the train station following the train tracks. And
4:29
Speaker 2: he literally made me a cup of tea, put me
4:31
Speaker 2: inside in a safe place and said I have to
4:33
Speaker 2: go home, mate, and he left me there, which I
4:36
Speaker 2: think it was an amazing thing to do, like incredibly gracious,
4:40
Speaker 2: and he just basically explained what happened in the morning
4:43
Speaker 2: of the morning. I just went to school like I
4:45
Speaker 2: always went to school, even when I ran away, because
4:48
Speaker 2: school was sort of safe and you'd get a feed
4:50
Speaker 2: and you could have a shower, clean your clothes, all
4:53
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. So yes, so there you go.
4:57
Speaker 2: There's something I absolutely did not think we were going
4:59
Speaker 2: to discuss this morning, mister Harper. Congratulations.
5:02
Speaker 1: And how did that influence you as an adult? Like,
5:04
Speaker 1: do you think that was I mean, obviously that is
5:06
Speaker 1: not a good experience in isolation, and just objectively that's
5:11
Speaker 1: not a good experience for a child. But how did
5:14
Speaker 1: that inform the way that you navigated the world moving forward?
5:19
Speaker 1: Was there any resilience from that way? There any awareness
5:22
Speaker 1: or like what did that do for you? That experience?
5:25
Speaker 2: I honestly think a shape a person who I am.
5:29
Speaker 2: I'd like to think there are times when I am
5:31
Speaker 2: a gracious person, like I have no issue picking up hitchhikers,
5:34
Speaker 2: I have no problem dealing with the homeless, and obviously
5:36
Speaker 2: I would do that on a regular basis, working as
5:38
Speaker 2: a paramit, especially in Melbourne. I actually think I became
5:43
Speaker 2: the person that I needed when I was that age.
5:46
Speaker 2: I really do believe that, and I believe I was
5:48
Speaker 2: influenced by a lot of the time the parents of
5:51
Speaker 2: my friends who clearly understood that there was an issue
5:55
Speaker 2: if on a Wednesday night I was asleep on their
5:57
Speaker 2: couch and it's a school night and I'm fourteen years old.
6:00
Speaker 2: So again, you know, those are the people that I
6:02
Speaker 2: can't thank enough. I have continued to see them and
6:06
Speaker 2: thank them and explain to them how powerful it was
6:09
Speaker 2: for me to have a safe place to go to,
6:11
Speaker 2: and they're aware of that. They you know, I still
6:14
Speaker 2: go to some of the I still go and spend
6:16
Speaker 2: time with the parents of my friends, and they like
6:19
Speaker 2: I go there, and they treat me like one of
6:21
Speaker 2: their kids, which is amazing for me.
6:24
Speaker 1: Can I ask you, well, one is your dad's still alive.
6:28
Speaker 2: No, he passed away two years ago. He had some
6:31
Speaker 2: like a whole bunch of very aggressive cancers. So he
6:36
Speaker 2: was a pilot in the Vietnam War. He did two
6:38
Speaker 2: tours in Vietnam. He was in nine Squadron. And so
6:41
Speaker 2: when we were young, we grew up on Air Force baces.
6:43
Speaker 2: So I mean, clearly, as I've gotten older and I
6:46
Speaker 2: have a much better understanding of, for example, things like PTSD. Clearly,
6:50
Speaker 2: my dad was unwell and he had you know, I
6:52
Speaker 2: got four brothers and a sister, you know, like big household,
6:56
Speaker 2: small house. He had limited tools and was working very hard.
7:03
Speaker 2: You know. So while I'm not trying to excuse his behavior,
7:07
Speaker 2: I just have a better understanding of it.
7:09
Speaker 1: I think as somebody who's medically qualified. Right, and it's
7:15
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. In our understanding of you know, mental
7:19
Speaker 1: health and the myriad of variables and factors surrounding very
7:24
Speaker 1: mental health, you know, the emotional and the behavioral and
7:28
Speaker 1: the physiological stuff. You must look back and think, because
7:33
Speaker 1: what was that? That was like, you know, forty years ago,
7:36
Speaker 1: years ago? Yeah, yeah, and you must think we we
7:39
Speaker 1: didn't know, you know, compared to what we know now.
7:42
Speaker 1: We knew fuck all them, didn't we? We didn't really
7:45
Speaker 1: even I don't know if the term I don't know
7:47
Speaker 1: how long PTSD as a term or as a diagnosed
7:52
Speaker 1: condition has been around, but it would have been in
7:57
Speaker 1: the very very old days. They used to say that
7:59
Speaker 1: people would come from war shell shops. Yes, yes, you
8:02
Speaker 1: know what looking back did was there any awareness or
8:07
Speaker 1: understanding about that forty years ago around our dad's behavior.
8:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I was probably in my mid to late twenties,
8:14
Speaker 2: Like the Australian government finally recognized the Vietnam veterans and
8:17
Speaker 2: allowed them, for example, to march on Anzac Day, which
8:20
Speaker 2: if you think about you think about that just for
8:22
Speaker 2: a minute. So these people were not allowed to march
8:24
Speaker 2: on Anzac Day. So you know, like I said, I'm
8:27
Speaker 2: not excusing my father's behavior at all, Like I think
8:29
Speaker 2: he was at times a terrible person, but you know,
8:33
Speaker 2: so he finally gets to march on Anzac Day, which
8:35
Speaker 2: he deserves to march on Anzac Day with all these mates,
8:38
Speaker 2: and I probably learned more from his mates about him
8:41
Speaker 2: than I ever learned about him from him. So we
8:45
Speaker 2: would go to these events, which I was very proud
8:47
Speaker 2: of what my dad had done. Like he literally volunteered
8:50
Speaker 2: twice to go and fly helicopters in Vietnam. Nuts, right,
8:53
Speaker 2: And he appears in books. There's a book called Chicken Hawk,
8:57
Speaker 2: and he like they talk about him innutes like when
9:00
Speaker 2: he passed away, Like like it was in crazy the
9:04
Speaker 2: amount of people that came forward and said, yeah, I'd
9:06
Speaker 2: serve with your dad. He saved my life, or the
9:09
Speaker 2: sons of his people would come forward to me and
9:12
Speaker 2: my brothers and say, you know, this is what your
9:14
Speaker 2: dad did for my dad. So yes, it wasn't until
9:18
Speaker 2: I become a paramedic and I had a much better
9:21
Speaker 2: understanding of say, for example, what PTSD was that I
9:23
Speaker 2: reflected and went, yeah, lookause much as my dad at
9:27
Speaker 2: times a terrible person, he clearly was unwell. He clearly
9:29
Speaker 2: was sad, He clearly was struggling as a person, and
9:35
Speaker 2: I sort of did feel sorry for him, Like I
9:38
Speaker 2: felt really sad that I never got an opportunity to
9:41
Speaker 2: speak to him about that. And obviously then for me,
9:45
Speaker 2: someone who has PTSD themselves, like it probably would have
9:48
Speaker 2: been handy for one of a better word, to at
9:51
Speaker 2: least have a conversation with someone about what was going
9:53
Speaker 2: to be.
9:53
Speaker 1: Like, Yes, I wonder what your dad would have been
9:57
Speaker 1: like if he never went to war. I wonder if
10:00
Speaker 1: I wonder what kind of you know, because you go,
10:04
Speaker 1: clearly he at times was a terrible person. I wonder
10:06
Speaker 1: if he was I wonder if he was a terrible
10:08
Speaker 1: person or I wonder if he just demonstrated terrible behavior
10:12
Speaker 1: because of the trauma, Like I.
10:15
Speaker 2: Love talking to you, Craik, because obviously your questions are
10:17
Speaker 2: absolutely amazing and incredibly insightful for for someone who possibly
10:21
Speaker 2: hasn't been around those kind of people. But I went
10:24
Speaker 2: and saw my dad's mother, and I always got along
10:27
Speaker 2: with my nan and Pop. They were always very very
10:29
Speaker 2: good to me, very proud of me.
10:31
Speaker 1: You know.
10:31
Speaker 2: I used to go there sometimes when I was on
10:33
Speaker 2: shift in uniform, and they, you know, they loved it.
10:37
Speaker 2: And my Nan said to me that my dad loved
10:39
Speaker 2: music and loved dancing, and that he was an artist
10:43
Speaker 2: and that he'd won a scholarship to go to Melbourne
10:45
Speaker 2: UNI as an artist. And I used to sometimes watch
10:48
Speaker 2: my dad draw and paint and to despite his father,
10:53
Speaker 2: who also ironically was an Air Force pilot. My dad's
10:57
Speaker 2: dad flew Catalinas in Asia, the flying boats. He went
11:04
Speaker 2: and joined the Air Force to pieces dad off. So
11:06
Speaker 2: he had a scholarship for Melbourne UNI to do art
11:09
Speaker 2: and apparently it was an amazing artist and to piece
11:12
Speaker 2: his dad off, he went and joined the Air Force.
11:14
Speaker 2: Like like fuck, yeah, how different possibly would my life
11:18
Speaker 2: be if my dad had gone on to be an
11:20
Speaker 2: art teacher or a sign writer or a graphic designer
11:25
Speaker 2: when I got older, I would sometimes watch my dad's
11:28
Speaker 2: behavior and think to myself, I wish he understood how
11:32
Speaker 2: bad he's behaving, but I don't know if he does.
11:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm fascinated with that. Like, it is very easy
11:39
Speaker 1: to go And I'm not talking about you or your
11:42
Speaker 1: dad necessarily, but broadly, either it's a good person, this
11:45
Speaker 1: is a bad person, or he's a preck or she's
11:48
Speaker 1: this or she's that, and then which is again, as
11:51
Speaker 1: you said, it's not to justify or excuse any bad behavior.
11:57
Speaker 1: But like I think about like, the idea of being
12:02
Speaker 1: objective about yourself is ridiculous, right. I can't be objective
12:06
Speaker 1: about me because my entire view of everything about me
12:09
Speaker 1: is completely subjective. Right, So let's put that on the
12:13
Speaker 1: psychological table and be fucking self aware and honest. But
12:18
Speaker 1: I think I'm not a bad person. I think I'm
12:20
Speaker 1: relatively kind and emotionally involved in all of these things
12:23
Speaker 1: that I think. By the way, I could be wrong,
12:26
Speaker 1: but that's how I see me. However, if I was
12:29
Speaker 1: putting on my big boy pants and trying to not
12:35
Speaker 1: be trapped in ego or fucking self grandization, I reckon
12:39
Speaker 1: if I had have gone to war and gone through
12:42
Speaker 1: the shit that your dad went through, or a version
12:44
Speaker 1: of that, or you know, there's every chance I would
12:49
Speaker 1: have been, in inverted commas, a prick or a prick
12:52
Speaker 1: to be around for people because of my trauma and
12:56
Speaker 1: what I'd seen and what I couldn't talk about and
12:58
Speaker 1: the psychological and emotional damage that had been done to me.
13:03
Speaker 1: And I'm not justifying anything. I'm just trying to understand
13:06
Speaker 1: it because we always look at the thing from the
13:10
Speaker 1: outside while not actually being in the thing, like we
13:15
Speaker 1: don't you and I, well, you do to an extent,
13:17
Speaker 1: and I want to talk to you about that. But
13:20
Speaker 1: like I'm I feel that my life has gone great,
13:24
Speaker 1: not because I'm great or I deserve it, but just
13:27
Speaker 1: because I'm lucky, Like I don't you know, I've worked
13:31
Speaker 1: reasonably hard and I've created a few good outcomes, so
13:34
Speaker 1: that's good. But also, as my friend Vinn says, I
13:38
Speaker 1: was kissed on the dick, right, and what that you know,
13:41
Speaker 1: it's like and that's just a very bad expression of
13:45
Speaker 1: being very fucking lucky, right, Like I was born lucky.
13:48
Speaker 1: My parents were you know, we had our moments, but
13:52
Speaker 1: over all, my parents are fucking great. You know, my
13:55
Speaker 1: schooling was great, my friends were great. I grew up
13:58
Speaker 1: in a safe space, you know, all I didn't. I
14:00
Speaker 1: wasn't sleeping in a fucking train station when I was
14:03
Speaker 1: thirteen and fourteen. And so yeah, these things are complicated
14:08
Speaker 1: and it's really easy from the outside.
14:10
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about you judging anyone.
14:12
Speaker 1: I'm just talking in general. It's like, yeah, that is
14:15
Speaker 1: horrible behavior, but you know that's Stephen Covey quote, and
14:22
Speaker 1: lots of other people said it. Also, it's like seek
14:24
Speaker 1: first to understand and then to be understood. And with
14:28
Speaker 1: things like this, I'm always trying to figure out, like, yes,
14:32
Speaker 1: we can acknowledge that that's bad behavior, or that that's inappropriate,
14:36
Speaker 1: or that's fucking heinous, right, whatever it is, wherever it
14:39
Speaker 1: is on the behavioral spectrum. But what I'm interested in
14:43
Speaker 1: is trying to understand it, you know. And I guess
14:47
Speaker 1: for you, as an observer of your dad, you must
14:50
Speaker 1: have some interesting insights.
14:51
Speaker 2: And also, yeah, I guess, like I said, I got
14:57
Speaker 2: to meet some of my dad's colleagues. They were amazing people,
15:01
Speaker 2: Like one of the guys's got to spend a fair
15:02
Speaker 2: bit of time with I don't know if I can
15:04
Speaker 2: say his name on air, But he was a tunnel rat.
15:06
Speaker 2: I don't know if anyone knows what that is. But
15:09
Speaker 2: his role was to go inside the tunnels that the
15:13
Speaker 2: Vietnamese soldiers had built and spend time. And he would
15:17
Speaker 2: have a torch and a pistol and he has he has,
15:22
Speaker 2: I think, been awarded like some serious medals. Yes, to
15:28
Speaker 2: spend time with amazing, lovely man like he has children,
15:32
Speaker 2: his children have children. You watch him and he's this beautiful,
15:35
Speaker 2: beautiful man and you go, oh my god, why didn't
15:37
Speaker 2: my dad turn out like that? Right? Because clearly had
15:39
Speaker 2: very very similar experiences. However, I've also been with him
15:45
Speaker 2: when there is the smallest amount of threat towards him
15:50
Speaker 2: or his family, and he is a completely different man.
15:54
Speaker 2: That absolutely frightened the shit out of me.
15:56
Speaker 1: Really, So we're back even though we weren't here folks,
16:01
Speaker 1: Sorry we had done. We're having internet issues because Scott
16:05
Speaker 1: lives in Antarctica and there's no signal it does he does.
16:12
Speaker 1: Now we're gonna we're going to soldier on because I
16:14
Speaker 1: love this chat. So you were talking about your dad, yes, yeah,
16:20
Speaker 1: who was just a winner, great bloke as except when
16:23
Speaker 1: there was a threat go on.
16:25
Speaker 2: So we're at the service station and he parked his motorcycle,
16:29
Speaker 2: he put fuel in it, and he was waiting for
16:31
Speaker 2: the next motorcycle before he moved his Yeah, which effectively
16:34
Speaker 2: blocks any car out. But it just means that all
16:36
Speaker 2: the bike's going to fill up at once and one
16:39
Speaker 2: person pays. Right. Yeah, this gentleman got out of his
16:42
Speaker 2: full drive and walked over and started having to go
16:45
Speaker 2: with him. Now, this guy would have been forty and
16:48
Speaker 2: the other guy would have been seventy and looks of
16:55
Speaker 2: a small statue. But the just how how he behaved,
17:00
Speaker 2: like his body movements and how he moved towards the
17:04
Speaker 2: man and the menace in his voice. I shit myself
17:09
Speaker 2: for the God, not for my friend, really, And I
17:12
Speaker 2: spoke to his sons about it, and they told me
17:16
Speaker 2: this story, which may be well known. I'm not awhab,
17:19
Speaker 2: but one day their dad, quite late at night down
17:24
Speaker 2: in Frankston, had pulled into an ATM to get money
17:27
Speaker 2: and was standing at the ATM waiting to pull hise
17:31
Speaker 2: cash out. Two young people come up behind him clearly
17:34
Speaker 2: to rob him, and he put both of them in hospital.
17:38
Speaker 2: There were young kids in their twenties. He would have
17:39
Speaker 2: been in his seventies. So the police tried to charge
17:43
Speaker 2: him and he just said, look at the security camera.
17:48
Speaker 2: So I guess I spent a lot of time with
17:50
Speaker 2: those predominantly men who were lovely to a point, but
17:55
Speaker 2: then you would see them sometimes say and do things
17:58
Speaker 2: where you would have to reflect on their behavior and
18:00
Speaker 2: go they have the capacity to harm someone because they
18:04
Speaker 2: have harmed people. They've literally killed people, and they carry
18:08
Speaker 2: that with them and I think, sadly it becomes part
18:11
Speaker 2: of their DNA and they probably I don't know if
18:14
Speaker 2: if it's consciously or subconsciously, have a switch where they go,
18:17
Speaker 2: I feel a threat and they put they sadly have
18:20
Speaker 2: to put that switch on.
18:22
Speaker 1: Can you can you enlighten me a little bit about
18:26
Speaker 1: like the Vietnam War and return veterans, Like why were
18:33
Speaker 1: they not allowed to march? Like they were literally sent
18:36
Speaker 1: there by the Australian government. I mean, it wasn't there,
18:39
Speaker 1: It wasn't their idea. No, I thin they were sent
18:42
Speaker 1: there to fight. They were sent there to go to war.
18:45
Speaker 1: They were sent there to whatever you know, to do
18:50
Speaker 1: war and all of the things that that involves. So
18:53
Speaker 1: what was the why were they not allowed to march.
18:56
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of my listeners know the answer,
18:58
Speaker 1: but yes, some in the dark.
19:00
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is it was not considered a war,
19:03
Speaker 2: was considered a peacekeeping conflict. So, for example, my dad
19:09
Speaker 2: never got any kind of compensation from the government like
19:12
Speaker 2: so and there will be some of your listeners who
19:15
Speaker 2: understand this. So he didn't get a gold card, say,
19:17
Speaker 2: he didn't become part of Veteran Affairs, but not just him,
19:20
Speaker 2: but his whole generation of men that went there. So
19:25
Speaker 2: it wasn't until maybe twenty years ago that he started
19:30
Speaker 2: getting a pension because he was not considered a veteran,
19:33
Speaker 2: which is once again not just him but everybody involved
19:36
Speaker 2: in that conflict. And my mother, that's what she did.
19:40
Speaker 2: She worked for Veteran Affairs and helped my father get
19:43
Speaker 2: a pension and was so successful at it. That's what
19:45
Speaker 2: she ended up doing basically for a living in her retirement,
19:48
Speaker 2: was getting other veterans, you know, pensions from the government.
19:54
Speaker 2: Some men who came back to Australia and then disappeared,
19:57
Speaker 2: like literally went bush because that's where they felt safe.
20:00
Speaker 2: I've lived for twenty thirty years without any kind of
20:02
Speaker 2: compensational like a healthcare card, nothing like that. They would
20:07
Speaker 2: come to my mother and say this is we know
20:10
Speaker 2: who you are and we know that you help these people.
20:12
Speaker 2: Can you help me? And so my mum then went
20:15
Speaker 2: and worked for veteran Affairs up until she died, getting
20:19
Speaker 2: people pensions or just their legal right what they were
20:23
Speaker 2: allowed to have.
20:26
Speaker 1: This is a weird question, but I'm sure the answer
20:30
Speaker 1: is yes. But is PTSD like on a scale do
20:36
Speaker 1: you think, like obviously there are different levels, Like there's
20:40
Speaker 1: like ten out of ten, you know, can't get out
20:43
Speaker 1: of it to share? Yes, like you know, colloquially speaking,
20:48
Speaker 1: fucked like life is terrible, can't operate, can't function if
20:53
Speaker 1: that's ten? Yes, where was your dad and where are
20:57
Speaker 1: you on the scale?
20:58
Speaker 2: Okay, so my dad was a nine, So my dad
21:02
Speaker 2: couldn't sit in a room unless you could see the door.
21:04
Speaker 2: And lots of my friends a lot that too, And
21:06
Speaker 2: I am like that. But there's all this stuff my
21:08
Speaker 2: dad categorically could not do and I only understand it
21:12
Speaker 2: as I got older. Once again, Craigy, like your insight
21:16
Speaker 2: into this is amazing, right. So, so I have friends
21:20
Speaker 2: that literally are on medication, that have spent up to
21:23
Speaker 2: eight weeks in therapy or rehab centers. And I have
21:29
Speaker 2: been the person that they call when they're allowed to
21:32
Speaker 2: have a phone call. And I've been that person multiple times.
21:35
Speaker 2: You know, I've been prevented from seeing my friends because
21:39
Speaker 2: you know, their doctors think it's not healthy for them
21:42
Speaker 2: to be around someone who is also a paramedic. So
21:45
Speaker 2: on a scale of things, like I think I'm incredibly lucky,
21:48
Speaker 2: like what you said earlier, Like I don't take any
21:50
Speaker 2: kind of medication. I have lots of therapy, but I
21:53
Speaker 2: have an understanding of how my brain and my condition works,
21:56
Speaker 2: so I purposely go and you know, like this morning,
22:00
Speaker 2: went up to the lake which is probably ten degrees
22:02
Speaker 2: and spent ten minutes sitting in the water just to
22:07
Speaker 2: get myself cool, literally and just to get myself in
22:10
Speaker 2: a place where I felt calm and I could go
22:13
Speaker 2: and deal with people. So I think I'm a five,
22:16
Speaker 2: But I sadly have mates who can't get out of bed,
22:20
Speaker 2: who take medication, and you know, because of their career they.
22:25
Speaker 1: Chose Hey, yeah, thank you for sharing that and being
22:29
Speaker 1: vulnerable and honest. I wonder I think about the space
22:34
Speaker 1: between treating the underlying problem. I don't know how much
22:40
Speaker 1: we can fix it, of course, let's put an asterisk.
22:43
Speaker 1: But dealing with the underlying problem and medicating the symptoms.
22:48
Speaker 1: Talk to me about the space between, you know, trying
22:51
Speaker 1: to alleviate some symptoms for obvious reasons versus trying to
22:57
Speaker 1: improve the actual cause of this, like the underlying problem.
23:04
Speaker 2: Okay, so the symptoms for me. So once I understood,
23:07
Speaker 2: which probably took two or three years of therapy, I
23:10
Speaker 2: once I understood that I wasn't a bad person or
23:14
Speaker 2: like it took me six years of therapy to literally
23:17
Speaker 2: I was driving home once that day and my therapist
23:20
Speaker 2: had said to me, you're a good man, like you
23:22
Speaker 2: do good things, and she always wanted me to say
23:25
Speaker 2: I am a good man out loud, for me six
23:27
Speaker 2: years to do that.
23:28
Speaker 1: Which is terrible.
23:30
Speaker 2: Once I did it, I realized I was And I
23:32
Speaker 2: just had a medical condition the same as diabetes or
23:36
Speaker 2: you know something or a heart condition where you could possibly,
23:39
Speaker 2: you know, using lifestyle choices and medication make it smoother
23:43
Speaker 2: for yourself. So I wanted to keep working. So there's
23:49
Speaker 2: things I could not do. So I couldn't work at
23:51
Speaker 2: night because I would fall asleep and I'd have nightmares
23:54
Speaker 2: which would inevertially wake up my working partner, and which
23:57
Speaker 2: happened sadly multiple times. I would wake up screaming. They
24:01
Speaker 2: would run down the hall from their bedroom wake me up,
24:04
Speaker 2: and I immediately thought I just slept through a page
24:07
Speaker 2: or something, so I thought they were coming to get
24:09
Speaker 2: me to go get a job, whereas they were coming
24:12
Speaker 2: to get me because I was screaming. So we would
24:14
Speaker 2: then ring the duty manager and say, look, I need
24:18
Speaker 2: half an hour. This is what's happened. And after a
24:20
Speaker 2: while you go, well, I probably can't work at night anymore.
24:23
Speaker 2: So unfortunately, yeah, so then you can't work at night.
24:28
Speaker 2: So I put things into place that made it safer
24:32
Speaker 2: for me, you know, and lots of exercise for whatever reason,
24:37
Speaker 2: lots of exercise for me is really good. And I understood,
24:42
Speaker 2: like I like doing what some people would consider risky
24:45
Speaker 2: things like I like riding my metuscle fast, I like
24:47
Speaker 2: going out into big water, but they're calculated risks, Like
24:50
Speaker 2: I look at what's going on and why I want
24:52
Speaker 2: to do those things, and I understand that it gives
24:55
Speaker 2: me a thrill. So it gives me the same thrill
24:58
Speaker 2: as having an ambulance fast at two o'clock in the morning.
25:03
Speaker 1: So, but what's the you know what is interesting in
25:06
Speaker 1: all of this, Right, So what is what does a
25:11
Speaker 1: pill do to a human's body? Well, it changes biochemistry,
25:14
Speaker 1: It changes changes what's happening in the brain. Well, what
25:18
Speaker 1: does writing a motorbike do for you and me? It
25:22
Speaker 1: changes our biochemistry, it changes it changes what's happening with
25:25
Speaker 1: hormone production and kind of hormones and endocrime position, endocrime system.
25:30
Speaker 1: It puts you and me like for our listeners who
25:34
Speaker 1: don't like motorbikes, totally get it. And this is the
25:36
Speaker 1: beauty of this. Like for our listeners who don't like motorbikes,
25:40
Speaker 1: it would produce a stress response. Yes, for you and me,
25:45
Speaker 1: it literally puts us in a better place mentally, emotionally,
25:48
Speaker 1: and physiologically. It actually puts my biochemistry in a better place.
25:55
Speaker 1: May be a better place than taking the best pill
25:57
Speaker 1: in the world. Right, And so everything on a level.
26:02
Speaker 1: When you've got and then you can extrapolate that physiological
26:06
Speaker 1: response to an activity or some kind of external stimulus
26:10
Speaker 1: versus an internal medication, then we start to understand how
26:15
Speaker 1: we can manage our physical, mental and emotional health through
26:18
Speaker 1: behaviors rather than and I'm not discounting medicine, of course,
26:22
Speaker 1: but through behaviors and doing things and having experiences versus
26:27
Speaker 1: popping a pill.
26:29
Speaker 2: Once once again, I can't agree with you more, Craig.
26:31
Speaker 2: And I've had the privilege of spending time with people
26:35
Speaker 2: who have discovered for them that maybe not riding a motorcycle,
26:38
Speaker 2: but perhaps writing it. It's like surfing a big wave,
26:43
Speaker 2: or learning to play music, or any new experience which
26:47
Speaker 2: helps rewire their brain, helps them settle. So you know,
26:52
Speaker 2: I've got mates that have literally got one of my
26:53
Speaker 2: very friends learnt to sew on a selling machine, and
26:58
Speaker 2: one of my other mates who's evers twice. Actually, he
27:02
Speaker 2: said something very very simple to me when he is climbing.
27:06
Speaker 2: There is no mortgage, there is no kids, there's nothing
27:11
Speaker 2: but the climb. There's nothing but the handhold. There's nothing
27:14
Speaker 2: but how your rope is. Like you are. You are
27:16
Speaker 2: in that moment. You can't be unwell. You can't do
27:20
Speaker 2: that and be unwell at the same time. So because
27:22
Speaker 2: I was explained to him how much I love riding
27:24
Speaker 2: fast and my experience at writing at the Isle of Man,
27:27
Speaker 2: and he said that's how climbing mountains is for me.
27:31
Speaker 2: That's my safe place, which is crazy when you think
27:33
Speaker 2: about it, right, But I understand more about him, and
27:37
Speaker 2: he's an incredibly lovely man. He's one of my favorite
27:39
Speaker 2: people in the world. Like he's a great dad, Like
27:42
Speaker 2: he's a good grandfather, Like you watch him. But he, unfortunately,
27:47
Speaker 2: you said, literally kill people for a living. So he
27:49
Speaker 2: needs a safe place.
27:51
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, And it like what is fascinating with
27:57
Speaker 3: this is and I mean this is true with traditional
27:59
Speaker 3: medication as well, but like the thing that will put
28:02
Speaker 3: you in your happy place will put somebody else in
28:05
Speaker 3: their anxious place, right, Like it's.
28:08
Speaker 1: True, isn't it. And so it's like people go to me,
28:12
Speaker 1: you know, maybe you should really try meditation. I'm like,
28:15
Speaker 1: fucking meditation. Do you know what meditation? You know, me
28:17
Speaker 1: sitting trying to meditate in the sense that most people
28:21
Speaker 1: think about meditation. By the way, is meditation great? The
28:25
Speaker 1: answer is maybe it's fucking great for some people, but
28:29
Speaker 1: it's not for everyone, you know, just like talk therapy
28:32
Speaker 1: is really effective for some people and really ineffective for
28:36
Speaker 1: other people. Like this whole notion that, oh Scott, you're
28:41
Speaker 1: suffering from this, Therefore you need that or Scott, you
28:44
Speaker 1: have this problem, therefore you need the solution that worked
28:47
Speaker 1: for me, because the solution that works for Craig could
28:50
Speaker 1: actually make Scott's problem worse because Scott is not Craig.
28:55
Speaker 1: So this global stupid idea that we have of that
28:58
Speaker 1: there is an answer for every you know, like, what's
29:01
Speaker 1: the problem, Well, this is the answer. No, the question
29:04
Speaker 1: is what's the answer for that individual. How does that
29:08
Speaker 1: individual's physiology interact with that experience or that motorbike ride,
29:12
Speaker 1: or that meditation class or that talk therapy, Like it's
29:17
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what works for that person because literally,
29:22
Speaker 1: and you think about I've said this before, but you know,
29:26
Speaker 1: somebody can have a handful of nuts and they're having
29:28
Speaker 1: a healthy snack. Somebody else is doing the same thing,
29:32
Speaker 1: is just putting a death sentence in their mouth because
29:34
Speaker 1: they'll have an anaphylactic reaction. Yes, and if they do
29:38
Speaker 1: that in the wrong place at the wrong time, they're
29:40
Speaker 1: going to die. Somebody else just eats a few nuts
29:43
Speaker 1: while they're driving to the gym. Right, it's not about
29:47
Speaker 1: the nuts. It's not about the talk therapy, it's not
29:50
Speaker 1: about the motorbike ride. It's not about the meditation class.
29:53
Speaker 1: It's about how that affects that individual, for better or worse.
29:58
Speaker 2: Yes, I think, and I'll probably repeat myself. I think
30:01
Speaker 2: I'm very lucky because I discovered what some people would
30:05
Speaker 2: consider safe pursuits or a safe place to put my
30:10
Speaker 2: dark energy. So I like swimming, So I would come
30:15
Speaker 2: off a bad shift and just go and swim. And
30:17
Speaker 2: I'd swim for two k's. I just swim, but rather
30:21
Speaker 2: than drink because I thought my dub was an alcoholic,
30:26
Speaker 2: I can't drink. But I do need a safe place
30:29
Speaker 2: to put my dark energy. Yeah. So sometimes I would
30:32
Speaker 2: ride my motorcycle too fast, you know, and the you know,
30:37
Speaker 2: the ramifications of that are catastrophic, and I've crashed twice.
30:40
Speaker 2: I've been hospitalized. Yeah, So that is always at the
30:44
Speaker 2: back of my mind when I sometimes get on my
30:46
Speaker 2: motorcycle and go. You just need to go fast and smooth. Yes,
30:51
Speaker 2: And I do think I'm lucky that I don't want
30:56
Speaker 2: to take alcohol, or want to take a drug, or
30:58
Speaker 2: want to harm myself in some way. I want to
31:01
Speaker 2: do something positive. Now, as you said, some people would go, Yeah, Roddie,
31:06
Speaker 2: mostcycle that's not safe, okay, And they might want to
31:09
Speaker 2: play golf. I couldn't play golf, mate, Like, I can't
31:12
Speaker 2: see that. I just can't. Like I need it to
31:16
Speaker 2: be maybe a little faster and maybe a little riskier.
31:20
Speaker 2: I just and that is because of dopamine and because
31:24
Speaker 2: of how it feels when you pull it off, if
31:27
Speaker 2: that's if that helps explain it.
31:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
31:33
Speaker 1: So compared to where you were when you were in
31:36
Speaker 1: the you know, the cut and thrust of you know,
31:41
Speaker 1: waking up in the middle of the night and screaming
31:43
Speaker 1: and at the cold face of being a paramedic every day,
31:48
Speaker 1: like every working day, and dealing with trauma and dealing
31:52
Speaker 1: like being in the middle of accidents that most people
31:56
Speaker 1: could not cope with, and you know all that stuff.
31:59
Speaker 1: How are you you now? Like are you are you
32:03
Speaker 1: more operational? More functional? Do you have a different perspective
32:09
Speaker 1: around all of that?
32:11
Speaker 2: Yes. So I had lunch with one of my closest friends.
32:14
Speaker 2: I've known that young lady for forty years. I had
32:17
Speaker 2: lunch with her about three weeks ago, and I sat
32:19
Speaker 2: down and she said, oh my god, you look lighter.
32:24
Speaker 2: And it was such a beautiful thing to say, and
32:25
Speaker 2: it was such a gracious thing to say, and we
32:27
Speaker 2: had this whole conversation about where I am today and
32:31
Speaker 2: how I feel about myself and that's why you have friends.
32:34
Speaker 2: That's why you need good friends, because you know, imagine
32:38
Speaker 2: if she had have said, you don't look well. And
32:39
Speaker 2: I mean I left that lunch feeling so full and
32:43
Speaker 2: loved and supported and like I was over the moon.
32:47
Speaker 2: And I said to her, yes, you're right, I do
32:52
Speaker 2: feel like what you just said. I feel lighter, I
32:55
Speaker 2: sleep better. You know, I'm writing more, I play guitar,
32:59
Speaker 2: or I have so much more. I'm now to come
33:00
Speaker 2: and have a coffee with Craig Harper, to go and
33:03
Speaker 2: do listen to music, to go swimming with my daughter,
33:06
Speaker 2: Like I now think I'm catching up on things, especially
33:10
Speaker 2: on seeing friends that I was unable to do before.
33:13
Speaker 2: And I'm looking forward to going back to school and
33:17
Speaker 2: learning new things. And yeah, it's probably I think I'm
33:22
Speaker 2: in a very good place.
33:26
Speaker 1: It's yesterday I was talking to a young man who
33:30
Speaker 1: I don't know well, but I've spoken to him a
33:32
Speaker 1: few times, and he reached out to me the other day.
33:34
Speaker 1: His name's should I do this? Yeh? Fuck it? He's
33:37
Speaker 1: a great dude. His name's Will. His name's Will Murray,
33:41
Speaker 1: and Will was an up and coming footballer. He almost
33:44
Speaker 1: definitely would have been drafted into the AFL. And he
33:48
Speaker 1: had an accident. I think he dived into a pool
33:50
Speaker 1: when he was about I'm going to say around fifteen
33:53
Speaker 1: and became a quadriplegic. Right, And yesterday I met him
33:58
Speaker 1: at the cafe and so he's this twenty three year
34:01
Speaker 1: old dude in a chair and we're talking about we're
34:05
Speaker 1: talking about lots of things, and like, talk about somebody
34:10
Speaker 1: who who has every right to feel sorry for themselves
34:14
Speaker 1: but doesn't like I inspired him. Sorry, he inspired me
34:19
Speaker 1: more than I inspired him yesterday. And Mike, Fuck, you
34:21
Speaker 1: know when you go away and you go like I'm
34:23
Speaker 1: meant to be the guy who does all this, I go,
34:25
Speaker 1: I just want to be more like him. I'm like, fuck,
34:28
Speaker 1: I'm an amateur at this shit. I want to be
34:30
Speaker 1: more like him. But anyway, we're talking about that, and
34:34
Speaker 1: I'm kind of digressing a little bit, but that you know,
34:37
Speaker 1: when guys are struggling with stuff, or guys are dealing
34:40
Speaker 1: with hard stuff, and I'm generalizing a little bit, some
34:43
Speaker 1: women are similar to this, But I've tried to explain
34:49
Speaker 1: this to various people over time, when like when you're
34:52
Speaker 1: close to somebody, somebody that you care about, or you know,
34:57
Speaker 1: like sometimes taking the piss what seems to be inappropriate
35:01
Speaker 1: is actually the most appropriate. And I was talking to
35:04
Speaker 1: Will yesterday about stuff, and he said, like, while he
35:08
Speaker 1: understands the sympathy from people, it almost drives him nuts, Like,
35:14
Speaker 1: you know, because here's a young guy in a wheelchair
35:16
Speaker 1: and he really likes it when like his mates take.
35:20
Speaker 2: The piss and they treat him.
35:22
Speaker 1: And of course he's exactly the same, slightly different situation,
35:25
Speaker 1: but he's just a young dude who's got his life
35:27
Speaker 1: ahead of him. And I said to him, well, for
35:30
Speaker 1: what it's worth, I don't give a fuck about you
35:32
Speaker 1: if that makes you feel better, and he laughed his
35:34
Speaker 1: ass off, right, he said, you know, and just that
35:40
Speaker 1: like trying to figure out I don't know, like, you know,
35:44
Speaker 1: when people are struggling emotionally and mentally, sometimes I'm like, yeah,
35:49
Speaker 1: I don't know that leaning in going like sometimes leaning
35:54
Speaker 1: in and going, hey Scott, are you okay? And sometimes
35:57
Speaker 1: that's the right thing, but also sometimes having some fun,
36:01
Speaker 1: you know, bringing some levity, like recognizing what's going on. Yeah, mate,
36:06
Speaker 1: you're having a bad day, you're having a bad week,
36:08
Speaker 1: having a bad month. I'm here for you, by the way,
36:10
Speaker 1: like I'm honestly I'm here for you. But for fox sake,
36:15
Speaker 1: can you get out of bed your lazy you know, like,
36:17
Speaker 1: for fuck, come on bright, like you're fucking depressing me,
36:21
Speaker 1: You're fucking idiot. Let's go and get a coffee or
36:23
Speaker 1: whatever it is. I just think that bringing a different energy.
36:27
Speaker 1: And I know that's not a standalone solution or a recommendation,
36:31
Speaker 1: but like I was looking into him and I'm thinking, yeah,
36:35
Speaker 1: what what he needs and what he thrives on is
36:38
Speaker 1: when people just talk to him as though there is
36:42
Speaker 1: no chair, there is no disability. Just talk to him
36:45
Speaker 1: like a twenty because that's what he is. Like, what
36:48
Speaker 1: he is is a young dude with a lot of
36:50
Speaker 1: fucking potential and a great attitude. So just talk to
36:54
Speaker 1: that person. Don't talk to the disability, don't talk to
36:58
Speaker 1: the chair, don't talk to the image, right, you know
37:01
Speaker 1: it's and yeah, I don't know, there's no revelation in
37:04
Speaker 1: that for you, but it just kind of struck me.
37:08
Speaker 2: No, No, I think there is Craig Like, I had
37:10
Speaker 2: the privilege of being a volunteer for the Australian Paralympic team,
37:14
Speaker 2: and I've got to go to the twenty twelve Paralympics,
37:18
Speaker 2: and then I've got to spend lots of time with
37:20
Speaker 2: lots of paralympians and yeah, what I learned from them
37:25
Speaker 2: is immeasurable, Like how they hang shit on each other
37:28
Speaker 2: and you go, oh my god, he just fucking called
37:29
Speaker 2: him legless, right, But we sat around a table having
37:34
Speaker 2: dinner and it was like having dinner with your mates,
37:36
Speaker 2: exactly the same, especially after they won the silver medal.
37:39
Speaker 2: The basketballers, like that was a privilege, and they're just
37:42
Speaker 2: sitting around talking shit, like hanging shit on their wives,
37:45
Speaker 2: just like everybody else does. And then you would go
37:48
Speaker 2: to help them, like they would move and you'd go
37:50
Speaker 2: to grab the chair, and I remember one guy saying
37:52
Speaker 2: to me, they're going to fucking follow me around because
37:54
Speaker 2: I'm taking a piece. Unless you're going to follow me
37:56
Speaker 2: around everywhere I go, don't help them. Yeah, so yeah, yeah.
38:02
Speaker 2: One of my best friends is a former paralympian and
38:06
Speaker 2: I love spending time with him because if I ever
38:08
Speaker 2: start winging, if I ever go fucking hell, mate. Some
38:12
Speaker 2: days he just looks at me like serious, Yeah, yeah,
38:17
Speaker 2: do you want to have a crack at my life?
38:19
Speaker 3: You know?
38:19
Speaker 1: So?
38:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's levity in those situations. Absolutely.
38:25
Speaker 1: Do you think people can I don't know if this
38:28
Speaker 1: is the right word, but you'll figure it out. It's
38:31
Speaker 1: not the best question, but it's not it. I'm heading
38:34
Speaker 1: in the right direction. Can people overcome trauma? Yes, like
38:38
Speaker 1: either fully or partly? Or do we just exist with it?
38:42
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts?
38:44
Speaker 2: Okay, say, trauma to me is like a passenger in
38:47
Speaker 2: my car. I know if I go somewhere, it's going
38:50
Speaker 2: to come because I might pull up at a set
38:52
Speaker 2: of lights and see nineteen ninety six red Falcon wagon. Yeah,
38:57
Speaker 2: and I'll go I remember, I remember pulling a per
39:00
Speaker 2: and have a car just like that car, And that's
39:02
Speaker 2: you can't do anything about that, right, Yeah. Like you
39:05
Speaker 2: might go into a house that's your friend's house and
39:09
Speaker 2: there's a smell and it's the same smell that reminds
39:13
Speaker 2: you of that stabbing that you went to once again,
39:16
Speaker 2: you can't it's two o'clock in the afternoon, it's a
39:17
Speaker 2: lovely day. You're going there for a barbecue, and you
39:20
Speaker 2: can't do anything about that other than not react. You go,
39:24
Speaker 2: I recognize that smell. I recognize that smell reminds me
39:27
Speaker 2: of that stabbing I went to. However, yes, I am
39:30
Speaker 2: not at that stabbing. I'm at my friend's house where
39:32
Speaker 2: I'm safe and we're going to have a great feed.
39:35
Speaker 2: Please continue. So, yes, like I said, I don't know
39:39
Speaker 2: how some of my colleagues or some of my former
39:41
Speaker 2: colleagues and my mates do that stuff. I just only
39:44
Speaker 2: know how I do it.
39:47
Speaker 1: And so when you're in the middle of that and
39:49
Speaker 1: you recognize the nine ninety six red Falcon wagon all
39:53
Speaker 1: the room that has a familiar but undesirable smell, or
39:57
Speaker 1: how does that affect you? One to ten, ten being
40:02
Speaker 1: crippling and overwhelming, one being extremely minor. How does that
40:07
Speaker 1: affect you? And does it affect you less now than
40:10
Speaker 1: it did five years ago.
40:12
Speaker 2: Absolutely affects me less now. But sometimes it does catch
40:16
Speaker 2: you by surprise, because you'll be like, oh, I'm okay
40:21
Speaker 2: with the red falcon YEP, I know it's just a
40:22
Speaker 2: fucking thing and it'll pass. And I normally look at
40:25
Speaker 2: my watch and look at my heart rate, and my
40:26
Speaker 2: heart rates eighty and I drive off and go yep. Cool. However,
40:29
Speaker 2: there are sometimes where someone will mention something and you go,
40:33
Speaker 2: oh fuck, yeah, I did deliver a baby by the
40:36
Speaker 2: side the road by myself. Yeah fuck, that was heavy. Yeah,
40:39
Speaker 2: And you might then reflect on how you traveled after
40:42
Speaker 2: that job. And so sometimes it can be around for
40:45
Speaker 2: a couple of days. I have to be honest, like
40:48
Speaker 2: I certainly have had situations where I've become completely uncomfortable.
40:52
Speaker 2: I can no longer stay in that situation. I have
40:54
Speaker 2: to go somewhere where I feel is safe. And I
40:57
Speaker 2: have before turned up at people's houses and just walked
41:00
Speaker 2: into their house and got I fucking I'm not good,
41:02
Speaker 2: and they go, yeah, sure, mate, fucking you know you
41:04
Speaker 2: know what spare room is, yeah, and not come out
41:06
Speaker 2: for two days.
41:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.
41:08
Speaker 2: I mean I don't do that anymore, which I'm very
41:10
Speaker 2: thankful for. But I at the time, I was incredibly
41:13
Speaker 2: thankful for the people that accepted me into their houses.
41:16
Speaker 2: So then I feel I have a responsibility when that
41:19
Speaker 2: occurs to me. When someone knocks on my door or
41:21
Speaker 2: rings me at twenty to eleven at night and you
41:24
Speaker 2: know that there's something wrong, I feel.
41:28
Speaker 1: A dichotomy with the consequences of the potential consequences of
41:33
Speaker 1: trauma and PTSD. I know they intersect, but I feel like,
41:38
Speaker 1: tell me if this is this is my guest, this
41:40
Speaker 1: is my hypothesis. You know, I don't know, so I'm
41:43
Speaker 1: just asking a question. But I feel like some people
41:45
Speaker 1: can come through that stuff and out the other side.
41:49
Speaker 1: They're more shut down, they're more switched off emotionally, they're
41:52
Speaker 1: they're they're more broken, whatever that means. But maybe for
41:57
Speaker 1: other people, you would come out and because you've been
41:59
Speaker 1: through that, you have a greater level of empathy for
42:03
Speaker 1: people that are going through that. Like, I feel like
42:06
Speaker 1: you would have more empathy and understanding for people going
42:08
Speaker 1: through that now because you've been through that.
42:12
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, Like I basically volunteer as a person that
42:17
Speaker 2: can be called, which you can always not you can
42:21
Speaker 2: always not take the call. But I find myself I'm happy.
42:25
Speaker 2: Happy is the right wather that's actually a bad word,
42:27
Speaker 2: but I'm way more comfortable going I know this person's
42:30
Speaker 2: going to ring men, I know they're fucked. I've know
42:31
Speaker 2: that had a shit day, And sometimes you get a
42:33
Speaker 2: briefing on what the job was and say this person
42:36
Speaker 2: may have been a former student of yours and they
42:39
Speaker 2: are three years in the job and they've just gone
42:41
Speaker 2: to a terrible job, and they actually want to speak
42:43
Speaker 2: to you because they used to speak to you at school.
42:46
Speaker 2: So and I, ironically, probably a week ago, I rang
42:50
Speaker 2: one of my former students who I know was having
42:52
Speaker 2: a bad time, and you know, he was, oh, my god,
42:54
Speaker 2: thanks so much for ringing, mate, I said, dude, I
42:56
Speaker 2: not fucking ring any day of the week. And we
42:58
Speaker 2: had this very long conversation and the last thing we
43:01
Speaker 2: talked about was whittling, because that's what he does for
43:04
Speaker 2: a hobby.
43:04
Speaker 1: Now.
43:04
Speaker 2: He whittles, right, And he was telling me how he
43:08
Speaker 2: spent ten minutes telling me how he was making a
43:10
Speaker 2: spoon but fucking way better than talking about the job
43:13
Speaker 2: he'd gone to. He just needed someone to have a
43:15
Speaker 2: chat with about something normal. So something abnormal. This is
43:19
Speaker 2: what is abnormal. Now I talks you about my new hobby,
43:22
Speaker 2: which is whittling, and I'm like, dude, it's an old
43:24
Speaker 2: man's hobby. And he's like, I am the youngest person
43:26
Speaker 2: by forty years in the class.
43:28
Speaker 1: That's hilarious. It's like, I think the funny thing is
43:33
Speaker 1: that sometimes like yeah, or you don't need to talk
43:38
Speaker 1: about the problem. You just need to talk about anything
43:41
Speaker 1: but the problem. Sometimes just to get out of that
43:45
Speaker 1: that's that folk like where all you where? You're in
43:48
Speaker 1: the middle of that experience and then you're talking about
43:52
Speaker 1: motorbikes or surfing or whittling or whatever it is, just
43:57
Speaker 1: to shift your attention and your emotional energy away from
44:00
Speaker 1: that thing that's giving you that anxiety.
44:03
Speaker 2: Yes, and we do that as first responders. And you
44:07
Speaker 2: watch the newer people, who predominantly are younger. So you
44:11
Speaker 2: go to a massive, big two or three car incident, hollicopters,
44:15
Speaker 2: everything right, yeah, and someone will walk up to you
44:18
Speaker 2: and go, oh, when's your next day off? Oh yeah,
44:22
Speaker 2: two days from now? Well what are you doing? And
44:23
Speaker 2: have a reasonable conversation about what you're doing on your
44:27
Speaker 2: days off amongst all this carnage and amongst all this mayhem.
44:31
Speaker 2: And then newer people are like, how the fuck do
44:34
Speaker 2: you do that? Just talk about the football and you go,
44:37
Speaker 2: what do you want to talk about? Mate? The dead people?
44:39
Speaker 2: No one wants to talk about the dead people. Maye
44:40
Speaker 2: not now, later we will. How about we talk about
44:44
Speaker 2: normal stuff that normal people talk about.
44:47
Speaker 1: Yeah. But you know, to people listening to this, they're
44:50
Speaker 1: going to go, how the fuck is wrong with you
44:52
Speaker 1: talking about the football and that situation? But I understand it.
44:56
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it is like what's funny? Is one person's
45:00
Speaker 1: weird as another person's normal? Yes, one, you know, it's
45:04
Speaker 1: like like when you said that, I'm like, really, that's
45:07
Speaker 1: what you're But then you're like, yeah, but that kind
45:10
Speaker 1: of makes sense because you know, what's done is done.
45:13
Speaker 1: We can't undo that, can't change it. Yes, we can't
45:16
Speaker 1: change that. So now we've just got to navigate it.
45:18
Speaker 1: We do everything humanly possible to look after and protect
45:20
Speaker 1: it and serve these people. But this is where we
45:24
Speaker 1: are at right now, and so right now, what we're
45:26
Speaker 1: going to do is talk about the game on the weekend.
45:29
Speaker 1: And that's really for your own mental.
45:31
Speaker 2: Health, right absolutely. And what I used to do because
45:34
Speaker 2: obviously I was a chef, so I used to bake.
45:36
Speaker 2: So I used to bake all the time, and I said,
45:38
Speaker 2: take Anzac cookies and chocolate chip cookies to work in
45:41
Speaker 2: a big tub. And after really big jobs, we always
45:46
Speaker 2: used to get into normally my ambulance and I'd pull
45:48
Speaker 2: the cookies out and I'd pass them around. We'd all
45:50
Speaker 2: be standing there eating cookies, talking about what happened. It's normal. Yeah,
45:55
Speaker 2: And it got to the point that's like years into
45:58
Speaker 2: the job. One of my managers, we've gone to this unfortunately,
46:02
Speaker 2: this really big car accident, and he came up to me.
46:04
Speaker 2: He goes, you have any cookies in the car? Yeah,
46:06
Speaker 2: he goes, can you bring them? I went, oh, wow, okay,
46:10
Speaker 2: So because like we'd actually normalized something, yes, yes, And
46:15
Speaker 2: after I couldn't stop baking cookies because everyone always wanted them,
46:21
Speaker 2: which was lovely. But yeah, it was very interesting for me.
46:25
Speaker 2: I do distinctly remember standing by the side of the
46:27
Speaker 2: road in Point cook at this huge car accident and
46:31
Speaker 2: we're all standing around eating cookies. Andyone's going, O, I's gotty,
46:33
Speaker 2: These are fucking great.
46:34
Speaker 1: I'm like, I know, I kind of feel like that's bad. Yeah,
46:41
Speaker 1: I'm kidding.
46:42
Speaker 2: I think from the outside watching that, I believe the
46:46
Speaker 2: public would go what the fuck. But at some stage
46:50
Speaker 2: you have to let it. One of my instructors said
46:53
Speaker 2: to me, let it drain out of your boots. Just
46:56
Speaker 2: let it go and let it and let it. It'll go,
47:00
Speaker 2: and then you do something else because just remember, mate,
47:03
Speaker 2: you have to pack up the car and then go
47:05
Speaker 2: do it again. Yes, so you can't think about what
47:07
Speaker 2: you just did because it takes away from what you're
47:10
Speaker 2: about to do. So you've got to have that moment
47:13
Speaker 2: of normality in the middle.
47:15
Speaker 1: And you've got to go home and say hello to
47:17
Speaker 1: your your missus or your husband, whatever the case is,
47:21
Speaker 1: or your kids or and then you've got to turn
47:23
Speaker 1: up and tomorrow you've got to be brand new and great.
47:26
Speaker 1: You know, hey, mate, it's always great chatting with you.
47:31
Speaker 2: Thank you that much.
47:32
Speaker 1: You're going to become a regular. We've just you've just
47:35
Speaker 1: been given the like the Facebook tick, You've been given
47:39
Speaker 1: the typ tick, so you've got the the whatever that
47:43
Speaker 1: status is, you've got that now. So we'll chat to
47:45
Speaker 1: you another week or three. But tell people how they
47:49
Speaker 1: can find you and connect with you.
47:51
Speaker 2: Mister Horatio Jones on Instagram. And if people would like
47:55
Speaker 2: to have a look at my books. I've written two
47:58
Speaker 2: books and I'm in the process writing a third one
48:00
Speaker 2: which comes out hopefully in March, they can go to
48:03
Speaker 2: Horatio hyphen Jones dot com dot au and check out
48:07
Speaker 2: the website. Thank you very very.
48:09
Speaker 1: Much, Oh mate, We appreciate you. Thanks for all the
48:12
Speaker 1: stories and all the wisdom and all the insight. We
48:14
Speaker 1: love having you as being part of the team. You
48:16
Speaker 1: have a good day. Man.
48:17
Speaker 2: Cheers Man, your team mate.