Latest / New Worlder / Episode #122: New Season Intro

Transcript

Episode #122: New Season Intro · New Worlder

0:00
[music]
0:43
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the New Worlder podcast.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: This is Nicholas Gill and... Juliana.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: Hi, Nick.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we just wanted to check in, let everyone know what's going on.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: It has been a while since we had a podcast episode,
0:59
SPEAKER_00: so I thought it made sense before we start rolling with new interviews,
1:04
SPEAKER_00: which are coming soon, to just touch base with Juliana, to catch everyone up.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Julie, what has been going on with you?
1:12
SPEAKER_00: How's California?
1:13
SPEAKER_01: Nick, it has been a minute indeed.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: So the first thing to say, I'm really happy to see you again.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad this is happening.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: This is back.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm in California.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: L.A. and surroundings.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing,
1:32
SPEAKER_01: as usual,
1:33
SPEAKER_01: multiple things,
1:36
SPEAKER_01: putting together a couple of syllabus for classes related to communication
1:41
SPEAKER_01: and food matters and then culinary diplomacy and also preparing some talks
1:48
SPEAKER_01: for Mexico City.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: I got an invitation that I'm very excited about to talk about culinary diplomacy,
1:56
SPEAKER_01: what the hell that is and why it's helpful.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Which conference is it?
2:02
SPEAKER_01: It's part of a cycle of talks they give in the humanities department
2:07
SPEAKER_01: in Universidad Autónoma de México.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's part of the anthropology, culinary anthropology and related social sciences.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, very cool.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: I hope to see some colleagues there from anthropology and philosophy and related.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: Hopefully chefs and just people.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm baking.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm baking.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: And the book I'm collaborating with, a baking book, is about to be published too.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: So that has been very nice,
2:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
2:44
SPEAKER_01: in a year of so much going on in the world to do something with your hands.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: It has been really, really cool.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: And I'm learning a lot.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: So, so like you're hands on in the bakery.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: I have been doing that for a year.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: I have learned a lot.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: I get to share with wonderful people and yeah.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: That's pretty much it.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: My son graduated from college, which is like the end of an era.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: I can imagine.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: Congratulations on that.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: Like that's a big deal.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Nick.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: Don't make me cry here.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Don't get me started on that.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: Well, but the most important thing is there is a book coming soon, which is your book.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: Still a while to be published,
3:51
SPEAKER_01: but That's, you know, the most important part is done and I can't wait to read it.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: But can you can you give us just, you know, a bite of it?
4:05
SPEAKER_01: Knowing that it's like it revolves around the relationship between food
4:10
SPEAKER_01: and sustainability, but from a particular angle in the Amazon.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: And can you tell us what that is?
4:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: So let me just kind of.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Get the basics out there because I've been finishing up this book about the Amazon
4:26
SPEAKER_00: for the past six months.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: It's something I've been working on officially for, I don't know, two or three years now.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: You've known about it, but I've kind of been quiet about it.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: Maybe unofficially for 20 years, I guess.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: It's something I've been working on.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: I've kept it quiet because I didn't want all these distractions
4:45
SPEAKER_00: or people telling me what it should be or what it shouldn't be
4:48
SPEAKER_00: because I knew what it should be, at least in my mind, I think I knew.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: It just takes a lot of legwork to get the right story that I wanted to tell.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: It was a lot of traveling and listening.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: The last six months,
5:05
SPEAKER_00: I've just had to Most of the research was done,
5:09
SPEAKER_00: so I just had to take the space and block everything else out to make sure it kind
5:14
SPEAKER_00: of became what I wanted it to be.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: And much of what I wanted to say about the relationship between food and
5:22
SPEAKER_00: the natural world is in this book,
5:24
SPEAKER_00: not necessarily explicitly, but at least artistically, I would say.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: The book is called Eating the Amazon.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: There's still a lot of technical details that are being finalized,
5:34
SPEAKER_00: but It will be about 350 pages and published by the New Press.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: And it should come out around April, in English at least, in the US and UK.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: Though again, these are like things that are yet to be officially confirmed yet.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: But it's a book of stories about food in the Amazon.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's not a cookbook.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: Everyone keeps asking that.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: There are no recipes or photos.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: But of course, there will be recipes that are talked about.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of food, obviously.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: So since you did a lot of fieldwork for this book, I mean,
6:16
SPEAKER_01: a lot as a proper, as I have told you, this is a proper social scientist, writer.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: A traveler, et cetera, et cetera.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: And just as a person that is really passionate and interested about this.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: So tell us a little bit about what that fieldwork was and what were you trying to do
6:40
SPEAKER_01: in those trips?
6:40
SPEAKER_01: Like talking with people, obviously eating, but tell us a bit about that.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: These are things like I need to practice talking about because I do need to
6:51
SPEAKER_00: To find ways to communicate this outside of writing it.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: The fieldwork essentially was a lot of listening more than anything,
7:00
SPEAKER_00: just going to places and listening to people,
7:03
SPEAKER_00: listening to their stories,
7:05
SPEAKER_00: listening to their challenges,
7:06
SPEAKER_00: you know, and just trying to understand how it all fits in.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: To the larger story of,
7:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
7:20
SPEAKER_00: planet Earth and,
7:22
SPEAKER_00: and how we, how we,
7:23
SPEAKER_00: how geopolitics and how we on the other side of the world might,
7:30
SPEAKER_00: might treat where our food comes from.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: What was your original question though?
7:34
SPEAKER_01: Because when you said it was clear in my mind and I didn't want to share
7:39
SPEAKER_01: that too much because I didn't want that to be touched too much.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: What was that?
7:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: Like the thing is like I,
7:47
SPEAKER_00: I didn't necessarily know what the stories were going to be,
7:51
SPEAKER_00: but I kind of knew where the stories were.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: So I didn't know how they were going to turn out.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know what the arc of every story was going to be,
8:01
SPEAKER_00: or it wasn't planned that I was going to go to this place and get this story
8:06
SPEAKER_00: about this specific person.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: And it was going to turn out this way in a,
8:10
SPEAKER_00: you know, always hopeful way or sad way or confrontational.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: Way with, you know, the right amount of conflict.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: It was just going to these places where,
8:24
SPEAKER_00: you know, I had some inkling already, you know, 20 years traveling the Amazon.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: I, I understood,
8:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
8:32
SPEAKER_00: certain areas where either it was a particular food or particular recipe or
8:36
SPEAKER_00: a particular organization or agricultural method that.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: I knew there was something interesting there and I tried not to
8:51
SPEAKER_00: come into it
8:52
SPEAKER_00: with some preconceived notion of how it was supposed to turn out
8:56
SPEAKER_00: in my very white person from Ohio worldview.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: So I went to these places where I knew there was a story and just kind of listened
9:09
SPEAKER_00: and tried to say what's happening from my perspective.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't want to go into it with somebody talking into my ear of,
9:21
SPEAKER_00: you should meet this person and this person and read this book or that book.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: Because it's like,
9:29
SPEAKER_00: I think I've gotten to the point already to where
9:35
SPEAKER_00: didn't need to be influenced by
9:38
SPEAKER_00: that.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: What did you say to the people you didn't know?
9:43
SPEAKER_01: Previously, and you had to introduce yourself so that they were open to talk to you.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's important because some of these stories,
9:55
SPEAKER_00: it's like I knew somebody on the ground that I was writing about or I knew
9:59
SPEAKER_00: a community.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: And some of it, I've never met these people.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: I just I knew.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: I knew kind of what the challenges they were having or the foods they were making.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: Or I knew the background, but I didn't know them personally.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: So it's like you reach out either directly in some cases or through an intermediary
10:26
SPEAKER_00: of some sort,
10:27
SPEAKER_00: such as a friend or some kind of organization in a few cases to where,
10:33
SPEAKER_00: and you have to explain
10:40
SPEAKER_00: What you're doing,
10:40
SPEAKER_00: why you're doing it,
10:42
SPEAKER_00: and get them to trust you with those very valuable information they have
10:51
SPEAKER_00: and have them understand that I'm not just someone coming in there
10:57
SPEAKER_00: to sensationalize what their lives are or fit it into some cliche little box,
11:05
SPEAKER_00: but I'm there to listen and In most cases, that was enough.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: That was,
11:12
SPEAKER_00: they're happy because there's really a lot of these remote communities I visited,
11:18
SPEAKER_00: nobody ever contacts them outside of, you know, some kind of institution.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: And here I was just a guy,
11:28
SPEAKER_00: a writer,
11:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:31
SPEAKER_00: just going to listen to them and that that's intriguing to a lot of people.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: Would you say there is a major or something you can generalize about the struggle
11:48
SPEAKER_01: that different groups have or a big existential question they have in relation
11:53
SPEAKER_01: to this specific topic,
11:57
SPEAKER_01: which is feeding themselves in the Amazon and making a living out of it
12:01
SPEAKER_01: and just like,
12:03
SPEAKER_01: is there something that is That you could tell us is the core of the problem
12:10
SPEAKER_01: or it varies depending on where you are, because the Amazon is huge, obviously.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Honestly,
12:16
SPEAKER_00: I think it's really hard to generalize anything in the Amazon because it is
12:20
SPEAKER_00: so massive.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like the size of the United States.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, a place in
12:27
SPEAKER_00: Western Peru is a place that's completely different from Suriname or Acre
12:33
SPEAKER_00: in Brazil and, you know, or Or, you know, or Columbia.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
12:39
SPEAKER_00: they all have their,
12:41
SPEAKER_00: every place has its own localized issues,
12:44
SPEAKER_00: whether it's,
12:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:46
SPEAKER_00: something destructive at their doorstep,
12:49
SPEAKER_00: whether it's,
12:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:51
SPEAKER_00: you know, oil exploration or gold mining or deforestation, of course, obviously.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: Or just the loss of culture.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: I think that's definitely a big thing that's happening everywhere.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Just kind of how do you maintain your culture and all of the things
13:12
SPEAKER_00: that have helped create,
13:16
SPEAKER_00: in many cases,
13:19
SPEAKER_00: many of the most incredible foods in the entire world that we all depend on.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: Things like cacao and vanilla and In Yucca and whatever,
13:30
SPEAKER_00: like all of the things that in Chili's and,
13:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:32
SPEAKER_00: all the things that came from the Amazon,
13:34
SPEAKER_00: how do you maintain this culture that kind of help these things come into being
13:41
SPEAKER_00: without while still feeding yourself and,
13:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:45
SPEAKER_00: integrating in a wider world that's, you know, becoming closer and closer every day.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a constant struggle.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: I didn't go into this thinking I'm going to come out with all the answers.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: But I think what I came out with is maybe what some of the more fundamental questions are.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is...
14:14
SPEAKER_01: When you ask a preliminary question and then you go through that process,
14:20
SPEAKER_01: a really valuable result is really good questions about it.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: I'll take your word for it.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: It looks like you succeed.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: People will see in the book,
14:35
SPEAKER_01: I guess, so many stories about different groups, different kinds of people.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: And also, I guess the
14:43
SPEAKER_01: solutions they come up with to cope,
14:46
SPEAKER_01: to adapt, to create, to recreate, to whatever they are trying to do.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: Right.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: And, and people will see those examples.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: But it's not,
14:57
SPEAKER_00: I would say it's not always solutions in the way we want them to be,
15:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:02
SPEAKER_00: people on the other side of the world,
15:03
SPEAKER_00: are we talking about in the media that they're,
15:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:06
SPEAKER_00: we need to invest this amount of money in In this thing to create,
15:14
SPEAKER_00: you know, 10,000 jobs and these.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: Daily solutions.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think just even understanding what solutions are is difficult.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: Even if you ask them, like, what do you mean?
15:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: It's like you look at all the things talked about of the Amazon always
15:36
SPEAKER_00: and it's all these like numbers and And facts.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: And I really wanted this to be different from that.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: Because everyone knows there's bad things happening in the Amazon and how destructive it is.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: And I don't need to tell you all the percentages of deforestation.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: No, but what I mean is
15:58
SPEAKER_01: how they go about their lives from their perspective on a daily basis.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: How do they live?
16:07
SPEAKER_01: That's what you are going to talk about.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: So that's what I,
16:10
SPEAKER_01: what I call solutions is like how they go through life in the place where they live,
16:17
SPEAKER_01: which,
16:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
16:18
SPEAKER_01: facing all these challenges,
16:20
SPEAKER_01: some imposed, some just challenges from the environment.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: Uh, so, so I guess that's what people will see a lot of, right?
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, yeah.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: A lot of that,
16:33
SPEAKER_00: but it's not, It's not that every story is about some remote indigenous community.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: There is a lot of that, obviously.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: That was another question.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: You have different groups, right?
16:43
SPEAKER_01: Like different farmers, chefs.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, rural agricultural groups and things happening in cities as well.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: There's giant cities in the Amazon.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: So the food is people eat there.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: So trying to understand
17:00
SPEAKER_00: those things is also important.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: It's so massive.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: I remember seeing you mentioned foragers too,
17:12
SPEAKER_01: and I was curious about it because we hear about foragers in abstract terms,
17:20
SPEAKER_01: but in the case of the Amazon, how does it look?
17:24
SPEAKER_00: What it's I think it's definitely dependent on where you are,
17:29
SPEAKER_00: but I think in rural communities throughout the Amazon,
17:33
SPEAKER_00: foraging is just the general idea of hunting and gathering is still very prevalent,
17:39
SPEAKER_00: though there is a lot of knowledge that's being lost regularly
17:46
SPEAKER_00: because people are forgetting which mushrooms they're supposed to eat
17:50
SPEAKER_00: because people stop collecting mushrooms or people are
17:57
SPEAKER_00: They're moving to cities and they're disconnected from the landscapes they grew up
18:03
SPEAKER_00: with or that their parents and grandparents grew up with.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: So there is this continual threat to losing the knowledge about foraging and wild foods.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that's a big part of it.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to understand nature and to be able to relate with it in the best possible way
18:26
SPEAKER_01: in every sense.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: That's, huh.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, this all feels to me like I can't wait to read it.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: And I think people are just very curious about it.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: I hope after your answers.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'm not sure I really helped anyone at this point, but.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, but that's good because then everyone is curious about it.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: The thing is, it's still so fresh.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, I literally, I'm still doing, like, I'm still waiting on the copy edits.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: I just sent, you know, basically the final edited manuscript in, like, weeks ago, essentially.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: So this, like,
19:10
SPEAKER_00: it still hasn't hit me yet,
19:11
SPEAKER_00: you know, processing what's inside of this thing, in a way.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: It sounds weird, but...
19:18
SPEAKER_00: I have to, I have to think a lot about it and like how to communicate that over the next.
19:25
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's hard when you are inside from,
19:28
SPEAKER_01: you know, when you're talking from inside, it's hard to summarize everything.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: When you have so much information about it,
19:35
SPEAKER_01: you cannot just say, you know, give general definitions will feel incomplete.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: No, I agree.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: It's, you know,
19:45
SPEAKER_00: it's still like,
19:48
SPEAKER_00: It's so personal, but also it's like, and I don't want to give it all away.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: I can see that.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I'm saying, okay, I can't wait.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think people, which is great, you know, it's a teaser.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, over the next eight, what is it, nine, 10 months?
20:05
SPEAKER_00: What month are we in?
20:06
SPEAKER_00: We're in July and it's kind of coming out in probably April-ish.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: You'll give us a taste of it.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, things will be coming out.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: I'll be doing interviews eventually, you know, when life gets closer.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: There will be some kind of book tour.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: What that looks like yet is still like,
20:26
SPEAKER_00: it's still early, you know, to announce anything official.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: Maybe finally you come my way instead of me going your way.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: I think that would be a good time to go to LA or maybe San Francisco too.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: And maybe some other places.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Definitely want to have some events at some like Restaurants and bars,
20:44
SPEAKER_00: especially places that have some sense of Amazonian food and we can kind
20:49
SPEAKER_00: of maybe do something interesting.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: I've already talked to a few friends, but I'll share more on that later.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I'll probably go on some other podcast for a change.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: And if anyone is interested in doing anything together, let me know.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Anything you have in mind.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
21:06
SPEAKER_00: I really want people to read the book and I'm going to be doing everything possible
21:11
SPEAKER_00: to kind of get the word out.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: That I can.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: And on this podcast, actually, we should talk about that.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: So this podcast obviously was never going away, if that wasn't clear.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: The break was a little longer than I expected because,
21:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:26
SPEAKER_00: like some of the final field work was kind of delayed until like the end
21:31
SPEAKER_00: of last year and into, I think April was my last trip.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: So like writing and edits then just kind of all ran together and it was longer
21:41
SPEAKER_00: than expected, but yes, New episodes are coming of this podcast.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: And after this,
21:47
SPEAKER_00: whatever you call this thing that we're doing right now,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: there will be an on location episode from Trancoso Brazil that's already recorded.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: And then we'll move into regular interviews every other week as always.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: And that will go on till I guess the end of the year.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: And Julie and I have talked about around the start of next year around that time.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: We are going to have a series of interviews related to people working with food
22:20
SPEAKER_00: in some form in the Amazon.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: Some of these guests will appear in the book.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Others are people I know or influential in that kind of realm of knowledge in some form.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: Some of them you will know immediately, others probably not.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: Julia, do you still want to interview me?
22:38
SPEAKER_00: Like, is that still?
22:40
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: After you read the book, we can do something.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: All right.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: I guess I'm part of that in a weird way, but yeah.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: So 2027 will be.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: 2027.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: A lot.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: We can't say how long it's going to last,
22:58
SPEAKER_00: but I would say at least for a period of months and we'll kind
23:03
SPEAKER_00: of see how it shapes together.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: What else has been going on?
23:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, I guess one of your posts that went viral, and also NOMA, which was a bit... Oh, yeah.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: So I think those two global issues, I guess.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, you're in L.A., the whole NOMA thing happened.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: And I actually didn't know that Rene Rezepi was living here for...
23:31
SPEAKER_01: A year, mostly.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: You were probably like in a coffee shop with him.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
23:39
SPEAKER_01: the whole thing, I
23:41
SPEAKER_00: mean, yeah,
23:43
SPEAKER_00: then it ended,
23:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:44
SPEAKER_01: with obviously some controversy about the experience that pop up,
23:49
SPEAKER_01: the final result of it,
23:50
SPEAKER_01: and then the potential cancellation of it with all the scandals.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to just summarize what happened?
23:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to beat the dead horse.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: It's been talked about so much.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: What I'm curious about really more
24:05
SPEAKER_00: than anything is it doesn't really matter what you or I say or people in the media.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Are people still going to go eat at these places?
24:17
SPEAKER_00: I feel like NOMA, they probably still will.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's had too big of an influence and from what I can tell,
24:29
SPEAKER_00: This wasn't so recent that everything happened.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: So there's been some kind of time in between.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: But we still don't know what accountability looks like yet for chefs or restaurants.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: Obviously someone like Mario Batali where there's sexual abuse involved and things like that.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't see...
24:57
SPEAKER_00: There ever being coming back from that in whatever form,
25:03
SPEAKER_00: but is there coming back from violence in a restaurant after a point in time?
25:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: I feel like people won't stand for that anymore.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: If that happens again,
25:19
SPEAKER_00: it's like they're like,
25:21
SPEAKER_00: people aren't willing to support that anymore,
25:24
SPEAKER_00: but because this happened previously,
25:27
SPEAKER_00: And there's been time in between and,
25:29
SPEAKER_00: you know, it seems like there was some change involved.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: Maybe people still go.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: It's complicated to me.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think, I mean.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying I would go.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying in general what people think.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know,
25:45
SPEAKER_01: I think this,
25:46
SPEAKER_01: as every process of progress,
25:49
SPEAKER_01: evolution, change,
25:50
SPEAKER_01: transformation, I think it's chaotic, it's not radical, it's not black and white.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: I think truth is always somewhere halfway.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: So for sure, all these accusations are like so many people that felt affected by it.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time,
26:13
SPEAKER_01: that doesn't mean that the whole project is trash or that you can trash it.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: Because there is a lot of good in what they have done.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: So it's hard to be nuanced when there is violence,
26:30
SPEAKER_01: aggression, even if it's for what I understand, there is not a sexual accusation.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: It's a verbal abuse and even some physical.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: So that makes a difference.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of physical, I think.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a lot of physical.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: And then,
26:46
SPEAKER_01: as you said,
26:47
SPEAKER_01: because this is kind of a
26:53
SPEAKER_01: not retroactive kind of accusation because it happened a
26:57
SPEAKER_01: while ago.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: For what I understand, they have been working on making these things better.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean that they fixed it,
27:08
SPEAKER_01: but the fact that there is a gap makes you think like,
27:12
SPEAKER_01: okay, maybe some of these already...
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Was addressed or not.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: But I guess what I have seen in all these processes where there is,
27:23
SPEAKER_01: you know, accusations and abuse and a real problem inside the organization.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: It gets some partial fixing and probably what we call healthier boundaries for everyone.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: So there are things that hopefully won't happen again.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: And as you said,
27:42
SPEAKER_01: I don't think in the culinary industry,
27:44
SPEAKER_01: anyone or pretty much anyone is willing to take physical abuse or even verbal abuse.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: I think.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: In general,
27:52
SPEAKER_01: as with the Me Too and with all the critics,
27:55
SPEAKER_01: it can have to,
27:56
SPEAKER_01: this helps people to have more awareness about it and then actually ask themselves,
28:01
SPEAKER_01: is this normal?
28:03
SPEAKER_01: Are we going to normalize it?
28:06
SPEAKER_01: Times have changed, et cetera.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: But there is also the fact that whoever you want to think of as examples
28:14
SPEAKER_01: that are comparable or not, In Hollywood, celebrities, and also Mario Batali.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, over time,
28:21
SPEAKER_01: they get back to somehow business in a different way,
28:28
SPEAKER_01: as I think René Retepe is saying.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm not actually there, but I am supervising and involved with some projects.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to be the leader because I'm still working on it,
28:40
SPEAKER_01: and I want to just sabotage the whole thing.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: So...
28:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, the fixes are always imperfect, I guess.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: But also,
28:51
SPEAKER_01: it is true that the accusations,
28:53
SPEAKER_01: even if they are correct, they cannot overshadow all the good and all the people.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's tough.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's complex.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: And this is a society facing complex issues, which, you know.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: So I agree with you.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: I think people will...
29:14
SPEAKER_01: We'll be going, I think, fine dining, probably with some adjustments, is going to...
29:21
SPEAKER_01: There are some people always interested or willing to invest on these experiences
29:27
SPEAKER_01: because we know it's entertainment.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: And if someone is willing to pay $40,000 for a ticket to see the final of
29:35
SPEAKER_01: the World Cup, I don't see why they are not going to keep spending $2,000.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: No, I've never had an issue with...
29:44
SPEAKER_00: Restaurants charging high prices if they
29:47
SPEAKER_01: do something.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: It's like concerts cost the same amount.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: And at the
29:50
SPEAKER_00: very least food,
29:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:52
SPEAKER_00: these high fine dining restaurants,
29:55
SPEAKER_00: it does filter down into hopefully directly to,
30:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:01
SPEAKER_00: a lot of farmers and,
30:02
SPEAKER_00: you know, agricultural workers and hopefully employees as well.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's the whole stagiaire situation too,
30:11
SPEAKER_00: which I don't even want to get into at this point.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: Like I've written about it so many times, but...
30:16
SPEAKER_01: You know what I see is positive and if this is true and not only,
30:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:21
SPEAKER_01: media related and impression of,
30:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:24
SPEAKER_01: you get from the round post and communication about this,
30:30
SPEAKER_01: because I think Noma has been always very good at communicating what they are doing
30:34
SPEAKER_01: or, you know, at least very intentional.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: So...
30:41
SPEAKER_01: My sense is that the sense of belonging of the team
30:46
SPEAKER_01: or feeling more appreciated maybe, it's something that it seems to be happening.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: And if that's the case,
30:54
SPEAKER_01: well, that's great because it's still a great project with a lot of potential.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: And if that's one of the outcomes of all this mess, well,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: then that team,
31:04
SPEAKER_01: which is like 50 people or I don't know, 100, well,
31:09
SPEAKER_01: If they feel that they are an important part of the project, then that's great.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's my sense.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: But again, who knows?
31:23
SPEAKER_01: Time will tell.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: And as you say, what is the accountability?
31:29
SPEAKER_01: What is the fairness?
31:31
SPEAKER_01: That's hard.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: It's all fucking annoying.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: I
31:36
SPEAKER_00: hate talking about this stuff, but I feel
31:40
SPEAKER_01: we still need
31:41
SPEAKER_00: to.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: I think these things do need to be talked about in nuance and not just
31:50
SPEAKER_00: passionately
31:51
SPEAKER_00: on threads or Instagram.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's almost a responsibility to talk about it.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like when there is aggression in a family, you have to address that.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: You cannot just pretend it didn't happen because then you make the problem work, right?
32:09
SPEAKER_01: So it's annoying.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: I was very curious when, you know, because the pop-up was about to happen, right?
32:18
SPEAKER_01: Like the experience and it was months of preparation and tickets sold and investors and stuff.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: They lost half of the investors.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, really, are they going to cancel the whole thing?
32:32
SPEAKER_01: What is the symbolism of canceling?
32:36
SPEAKER_01: And why?
32:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, like all these questions.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how many people went, but as you said, I think people just went.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Maybe some didn't, but probably the majority just.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: I think NOMA, people are still going to go.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, people will.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: It will look the other way,
32:57
SPEAKER_00: you know, some I think always, but are people going to stand for this much longer?
33:05
SPEAKER_00: Are they going to accept abuse in restaurants, in fine dining restaurants?
33:11
SPEAKER_00: Is that worth the cost, you know, to get these big experiences?
33:17
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think it is anymore.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't think people are going to keep supporting these places if this keeps happening.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you mean customers?
33:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, customers, I mean.
33:29
SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, but the thing is how much they are going to know.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think things are much easier to get out in the open now.
33:40
SPEAKER_00: I think there was.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: That is true.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because there is more awareness, right?
33:44
SPEAKER_00: There's more awareness, but people are more willing to speak out now.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: To speak out, yeah.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: Noma kind of had a veil around it,
33:52
SPEAKER_00: protecting it,
33:53
SPEAKER_00: I think,
33:53
SPEAKER_00: because so many people's lives,
33:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:56
SPEAKER_00: so many people,
33:56
SPEAKER_00: so many just stagiaires that got a restaurant funding before,
34:02
SPEAKER_00: you know, for doing something, some minute thing there for a few months.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: You know,
34:10
SPEAKER_00: you don't want to speak out if,
34:11
SPEAKER_00: you know, that's like the thing that makes you credible in some people's eyes.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: If you think maybe it's more evident in the culinary industry because of the stress
34:22
SPEAKER_01: and the pressure and the fast pace it requires from workers.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: But if you think about it,
34:28
SPEAKER_01: they ask the question about abuse and what are the limits of,
34:34
SPEAKER_01: you know, like demanding from employees and all that.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: It's it's everywhere.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's in it's even in TV realities in the army.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, everywhere.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: So That's why I say these are really social complex.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: These are complex matters because what are the limits?
34:58
SPEAKER_01: What is okay and what is not?
35:02
SPEAKER_01: And it's a messy, there is not a clear answer about it.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: And I guess the more we talk about it without,
35:13
SPEAKER_01: that's the other thing,
35:14
SPEAKER_01: without becoming obsessive about it and It's yellowish about it,
35:20
SPEAKER_01: you know, because I don't know.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: But I feel that it can go both ways, right?
35:31
SPEAKER_01: People, people, it's like with me too.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I asked about, I asked myself about this in general with work.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: You know,
35:47
SPEAKER_01: what is okay in terms of treatment to employers and in work environment
35:53
SPEAKER_01: and what is not.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's not only in the culinary industry.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: But I think,
35:57
SPEAKER_00: and we mentioned,
35:59
SPEAKER_00: you mentioned briefly the kind of Michelin Green Stars post I did,
36:05
SPEAKER_00: the series of posts that kind of went viral.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot of just standards being fixed.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: Change of what people are willing to accept and what they aren't.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: And I think Michelin was beginning to realize that these green stars
36:24
SPEAKER_00: that they were awarding,
36:27
SPEAKER_00: people weren't going to stand for that anymore because there was based
36:31
SPEAKER_00: on no accountability whatsoever from this organization built around trust.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: And here they were giving stars,
36:39
SPEAKER_00: this very symbol of Trust and,
36:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:43
SPEAKER_00: authentication in restaurant criticism to restaurants that were just,
36:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:49
SPEAKER_00: basically telling them, you know, we buy local and, you know, we try to waste less.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: There was no kind of accountability of where that information was coming from,
37:03
SPEAKER_00: no independent verification.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very much.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: And, okay,
37:08
SPEAKER_00: so what happened is,
37:10
SPEAKER_00: Last October,
37:11
SPEAKER_00: I wrote a post because Michelin started removing the green stars,
37:18
SPEAKER_00: which are awarded for sustainability in restaurants.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: They started removing them from the restaurant listings on their website.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: And so I pointed it out that they were removing them,
37:29
SPEAKER_00: which probably meant that they're getting rid of the stars.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: And they denied it all, like very publicly in all these different interviews.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: And they were like, no, no, no, we are more committed to the green stars than ever.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: And then a few months ago, they officially ended the Green Star Wars.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: And they haven't even said why.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: Because they did still seem popular, despite the lack of credibility.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: People were still flaunting them on their restaurants, on social media.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: And now they're just replacing the whole thing
38:01
SPEAKER_00: with this editorial platform called Mindful Voices that will profile chefs
38:08
SPEAKER_00: and restaurants in sustainable practices.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: Basically,
38:12
SPEAKER_00: it removes any liability that they could have had by awarding these places
38:17
SPEAKER_00: a green star.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: So it's just the same social media buzz,
38:22
SPEAKER_00: I guess, without any kind of legal ramifications of what that symbol means.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like a recognition without a commitment.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it seems like there were maybe some laws in the EU
38:34
SPEAKER_00: that were maybe threatening what these...
38:41
SPEAKER_00: You know, the idea of the green stars.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think they realized something was eventually going to come up.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: But in my
38:49
SPEAKER_00: opinion, they just they fucked the whole thing up.
38:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, like I thought I think it's a giant lost opportunity for restaurants.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: I think Michelin should have invested in separate inspectors to make green stars legitimate.
39:04
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't even mind if the valuations cost money,
39:07
SPEAKER_00: if the restaurants pay Michelin to come inspect their restaurant and they did
39:12
SPEAKER_00: a review of something that was credible and they would get a green star
39:17
SPEAKER_00: and it would be something to strive for and
39:19
SPEAKER_00: that green star would have some real financial impact for the restaurant.
39:26
SPEAKER_00: But they didn't do that.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: They just tried to take the cheap,
39:31
SPEAKER_00: easy way out and And I do think it's time to start looking at
39:37
SPEAKER_00: the other organizations that are kind of evaluating sustainability in restaurants.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: It's time to look at them more seriously because Michelin 50 Best are proving again
39:48
SPEAKER_00: and again that they aren't doing this outside of any kind of promotional means.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: But just to go back to what we were talking about with Norman, I think just...
40:01
SPEAKER_00: Customers,
40:02
SPEAKER_00: customers,
40:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
40:04
SPEAKER_00: restaurant people,
40:05
SPEAKER_00: they're fed up with all the bullshit,
40:07
SPEAKER_00: you know, like all the greenwashing and to just this image of this perfect world.
40:13
SPEAKER_00: They're done with it.
40:14
SPEAKER_00: The world is just too fucked up now, you know, not just in food and restaurants.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: We don't want to accept the status quo.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: We want to kind of champion real solutions, people doing the real work.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: And that kind of ties back into, you know, what eating the Amazon is about, too.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: There are kind of real solutions out there,
40:34
SPEAKER_00: but we just kind of have to change our perspective of what those look like.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: This has to do a lot with trust,
40:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
40:43
SPEAKER_01: trust in a certification,
40:46
SPEAKER_01: trust in an institution that it's recognizing other organizations or projects.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: It's just, it's like, I mean, it was the same with organic, right?
40:57
SPEAKER_01: With the certification of organic and all the labels we see and we We have to trust,
41:02
SPEAKER_01: but can we?
41:04
SPEAKER_01: And this is the same.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: Like all this diarrhea lettuce stuff.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: Like Jesus Christ.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: Like this industrial food that we've been told was safe.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: We're always told the stuff in the packaging is always going to be safe.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be contaminated because it's safe in that packaging.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: But no, I'm sorry.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: It's the dangerous stuff.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: And it's the dangerous stuff, not just for our bodies, but for everyone around it.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: And hopefully people get shocked by these things because they're going to keep happening.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a combination of, again, trustability.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: What are the standards?
41:50
SPEAKER_01: Is there corruption?
41:51
SPEAKER_01: Who is making profits?
41:54
SPEAKER_01: And also,
41:55
SPEAKER_01: we have gone so all the way globalization that the potential for these things
42:02
SPEAKER_01: to happen is bigger because we are all over the place.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: Everything is all over the place.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: Like, if you think about it,
42:11
SPEAKER_01: we got used to have,
42:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how many food products available every day if we feel we can afford it
42:19
SPEAKER_01: or we can find them or we can Is that okay?
42:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean... No.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: No.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: We shouldn't have everything available all the time.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: It's only going to reduce, it ultimately just keeps reducing, you
42:35
SPEAKER_01: know, the diversity of things.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: Even if it's organic,
42:36
SPEAKER_01: even if it's very square trade,
42:38
SPEAKER_01: even if all this is so,
42:42
SPEAKER_01: the flow of things is so extreme that,
42:49
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, Somehow, that sounds like consumerism anyway, right?
42:57
SPEAKER_01: And commodification of whatever,
43:00
SPEAKER_01: even if it's organic or better paid, not necessarily fair paid, but better paid.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: But it seems to me that these like,
43:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
43:13
SPEAKER_01: what happened with the iceberg lettuce,
43:15
SPEAKER_01: It comes from so many stuff moving around from country to country,
43:20
SPEAKER_01: from region to region, from,
43:23
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's stoppable,
43:25
SPEAKER_01: but at this point,
43:28
SPEAKER_01: but seems to be a little bit out of control and
43:32
SPEAKER_01: the solution cannot be sanitizing more,
43:36
SPEAKER_01: using more obviously pesticides or I don't know,
43:42
SPEAKER_01: just making foods less Real and more classy.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, more hygienized?
43:50
SPEAKER_00: No.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: We really have to change our ways, where we get our food.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: In a big way.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: It's the only way to really make the structural changes possible.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: I think that's not an easy thing.
44:07
SPEAKER_00: It's a big, disruptive thing.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: Idea to just really change our lives and how we think about food or else it's going
44:17
SPEAKER_00: to get worse and worse.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Like you said,
44:20
SPEAKER_00: they're just going to spray it with more shit,
44:24
SPEAKER_00: which is going to give us more diseases and it's just going to keep snowballing
44:28
SPEAKER_00: into all the worst directions.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't see it,
44:35
SPEAKER_00: but I do think we can change our ways and I don't think it's as difficult Hard
44:39
SPEAKER_00: as we think it is.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is something you have insisted on for a while and I really like it
44:46
SPEAKER_01: because I'm more skeptical about it.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: But every time that you say,
44:50
SPEAKER_01: it makes me feel somehow you have like the answer,
44:57
SPEAKER_00: not the answer, but I thought
44:58
SPEAKER_01: about it.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: So like with the book and I believe
45:05
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of that in the book, definitely.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: This kind of hopefulness about changing our ways and just different ideas.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: But it's like,
45:12
SPEAKER_00: if you really think about it,
45:13
SPEAKER_00: like if 5% of the money that is invested into kind of maximizing yields
45:22
SPEAKER_00: of industrial foods was invested into just distributing healthy food,
45:29
SPEAKER_00: nice farm-raised food, just basic stuff.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: Like it would solve so many, so many issues with what we're having.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: I know.
45:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, and just like supporting area farmers, just supporting small farms.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: Like just if just 5% of the money that went towards industrialization
45:50
SPEAKER_00: and maximizing yields,
45:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
45:52
SPEAKER_00: at all costs,
45:53
SPEAKER_00: if that just went to supporting small farmers and fishermen or ranchers,
45:58
SPEAKER_00: whatever, it would have such a big impact.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: Like there's so much just wasted money,
46:05
SPEAKER_00: money thrown at things that just go to a small amount of people.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: It just makes a small amount of people rich and the rest of us poor and sick.
46:17
SPEAKER_00: I think it's hard to break out of that,
46:21
SPEAKER_00: but I don't think it's as hard as most people think it is.
46:27
SPEAKER_00: Like structural changes need to happen, but it's not just something...
46:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, you personally can change, you know, with one click, but I think it is possible.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: That sounds to me like a great opening question for this round of interviews, Nick.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: Seriously.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
46:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: All right.
46:53
SPEAKER_00: Let's run with that.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: Let's work
46:55
SPEAKER_01: on that.
46:55
SPEAKER_00: All right.
46:56
SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: This was supposed to be like a 15-minute thing, but we're going on like 49 minutes now.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, it took us,
47:03
SPEAKER_01: it took whatever minutes it took to get to that opening question, so we are fine.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: All right.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, thank you.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: I also got a dog, by the way.
47:13
SPEAKER_01: You what?
47:14
SPEAKER_00: I got a dog.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, you got a dog.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: What's the name?
47:18
SPEAKER_00: It's Ozzy.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, I saw Ozzy because of...
47:23
SPEAKER_00: Ah, we just kind of like the name.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's like four months old.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: He's a rescue,
47:30
SPEAKER_00: so it's hard to say exactly what he is,
47:31
SPEAKER_00: but he's like part Black Lab,
47:33
SPEAKER_00: part Springer Spaniel, and then maybe some other things.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: I know, it's so sweet.
47:39
SPEAKER_01: I saw the picture.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's usually up here working with me, but I left my son's home.
47:44
SPEAKER_00: Does he get along
47:45
SPEAKER_01: with the cat?
47:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean,
47:48
SPEAKER_00: he wants to be friends with the cats,
47:49
SPEAKER_00: and they're still skeptical of, you know, this beast that we let in the house, but.
47:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:59
SPEAKER_00: All right.
48:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, good for you.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
48:06
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm always looking at these cute dogs all around.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't get one because, you know, it's a huge responsibility.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: It is.
48:15
SPEAKER_01: Especially if you move around, as I do, here and there.
48:19
SPEAKER_01: But they are so lovely.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: It's so nice to have a dog.
48:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: I see people.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: Very wonderful beings.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: Whatever you want to call them.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
48:33
SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: And everyone stay tuned.
48:36
SPEAKER_00: I'll have the Tranquoso episode up in a few weeks and then the interviews will start coming.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: We'll go from there.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: We'll go from there.