Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep. 394 - A Jehovah’s Witness Meets the Real Jesus

Transcript

Ep. 394 - A Jehovah’s Witness Meets the Real Jesus · The Living Waters Podcast

1:04
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know what was happening, but I knew the atmosphere around me was just changing so dramatically.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: And I look up and it's like the whole world felt frozen.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: The whole the trees, there was like no wind in the trees.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: I just felt like I had like stepped into eternity and was just experiencing God.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: And I was like scared.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: I felt intoxicated for a few seconds, to be honest.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: And I was scared about that.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: I was scared I was gonna have to pick my son up.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know if this was gonna last all day, had no idea about being born again.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: And I could just like feel the Spirit of God come over me and come into my body.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: And it was incredible, and I really will never be able to describe it.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: But I just I knew I was a different person from that moment on.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking in my head, like, God, please don't go, please don't go.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, give me a yes or no, are you Jesus?
2:01
SPEAKER_01: But I look this way, there's nobody coming, I look that way, there's nobody coming, and then all of a sudden there's a knock on my window, and there's this little boy.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: And I knew he was from God.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: I just knew.
2:18
SPEAKER_03: Guys, we've all heard our fair share of testimonies across the spectrum of our lives.
2:25
SPEAKER_03: And there's no such thing as just uh normal, common testimony.
2:30
SPEAKER_03: I mean, every testimony is miraculous because God is saving souls.
2:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
2:34
SPEAKER_03: But from time to time, we come across one of those that just blows us away, where there are details involved that just stand out and remind us again of God's divine hand uh in orchestrating salvation.
2:47
SPEAKER_03: I mean, we all have testimonies of God doing dramatic things in our lives, but we all heard one recently that radically captivated us.
2:57
SPEAKER_03: Right.
2:57
SPEAKER_03: And it's one of those you hear it, but you don't anticipate you'll actually be sitting down with that person.
3:02
SPEAKER_03: But she is here with us today, Talia Hall.
3:05
SPEAKER_03: Welcome.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to be here.
3:09
SPEAKER_03: What a what a joy.
3:10
SPEAKER_03: What, Ray Comfort?
3:11
SPEAKER_03: I said welcome.
3:12
SPEAKER_05: It's what humans say to another person.
3:15
SPEAKER_05: I thought you said something profound, but then I realized that.
3:17
SPEAKER_05: Atlantic ocean.
3:18
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
3:18
SPEAKER_05: That's profound.
3:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
3:19
SPEAKER_03: So Talia, what a what a delight it is to have you with us all the way from Vancouver, right?
3:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Vancouver, Washington.
3:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
3:25
SPEAKER_03: And uh we received a video from someone who said that you, in your testimony, kind of talked about something that was connected to our ministry.
3:35
SPEAKER_03: And we all watched it.
3:37
SPEAKER_03: And honestly, I sat there stunned.
3:39
SPEAKER_03: That it was one of those moments where especially where you where you got to kind of the pinnacle of what happened and what led up to it, especially, that uh that really blew me away.
3:49
SPEAKER_03: And uh, you come from a Jehovah's Witness background, and we have a lot of people obviously that follow our ministry that have wanted to know how do I reach a Jehovah's Witness?
4:00
SPEAKER_03: And it's rare we come across testimonies like yours because when someone was in it as long as you were, uh you don't typically find them coming out.
4:09
SPEAKER_03: And so we were so delighted to hear that and and and blown away.
4:13
SPEAKER_03: So why don't we kick things off with you telling us a little bit about kind of your your family history and their connection with Jehovah's Witnesses?
4:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I'm a third generation of Jehovah's Witness on both sides, for my father and for my mother.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, I was adopted into a family at 11 days old, and we were off to the races.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: We were Jehovah's Witnesses, devout Jehovah's Witnesses.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: Everything that was our complete lifestyle.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: Everything was through the lens of being a Jehovah's Witness.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: I never questioned that I was in the one true religion.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: I had a few questions about the religion or things that didn't make sense, but never once was it to the point where I thought this is not the truth.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: There was no world or possibility that existed in my mind where this is not the truth.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I actually really enjoyed my childhood.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: I didn't have any trauma or anything.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: My parents were wonderful, lovely parents.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: They loved us the best that they could and um made sure we had a really good childhood, really strong community.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, that started to kind of fall away as I became a teenager.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: And um, it's a very conditional type of community.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, but as far as my upbringing, I was 100% devout, Jehovah's Witness, and so is my parents, and they still are today.
5:34
SPEAKER_03: So growing up, did you actually go door to door with your Oh yeah, everybody does.
5:38
SPEAKER_03: You go even as a as a child.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you go when your parents have to go on Saturdays.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: So when you're a newborn, you go with them.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: So you don't remember a time where you're not going.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: And then as soon as you can, if you're three years old, you're the one holding out, handing out the magazines and have a short presentation.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: And they know it's hard to say no to a kid.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: So they you become what's called an unbaptized publisher.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: So that usually happens around five or six, where you are officially the one taking the door.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: It's your door, it's your householder, you're the one leading the conversation.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
6:13
SPEAKER_05: Um five or six?
6:14
SPEAKER_01: Five or six.
6:14
SPEAKER_05: Is that scary?
6:16
SPEAKER_01: What was that?
6:16
SPEAKER_05: Was it scary to knock on a stranger's door?
6:19
SPEAKER_01: What was scary was the dogs.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: I still am scared of dogs to this day.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the territories we were in were often my schoolmates.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: And so I would be so nervous I was gonna have uh one of my friends be at the door, which did happen numerous times during my childhood.
6:37
SPEAKER_05: It doesn't matter and close the door.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: I would try to be like, oh, this was an accident.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
6:42
SPEAKER_03: Did you ever get slack for that at school?
6:44
SPEAKER_03: Like when you saw someone you knew and then later they talked about it at school.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: They never really talked about it.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: Luckily, like they kind of wanted to act like that never happened, and I kind of wanted to act like that never happened.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: Like I think that they also were thrown off because I'm in their environment and they're in their pajamas or something.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: And so they would also not want to bring it up.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: It looking back, I wonder if something in me internally knew something about this is off or weird because now that I'm a Christian, I don't care about looking like a fool.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: Like I know I have the truth.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: So there is that difference there.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: But that was what was scary.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: And there was times where you would be in the middle of nowhere and you'd be taking a door, and you'd be like, is this person gonna have a gun?
7:27
SPEAKER_01: Or people would answer the door sometimes with a gun.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: Really?
7:30
SPEAKER_01: What that has happened too.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: So where was that?
7:32
SPEAKER_03: Texas?
7:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, no.
7:35
SPEAKER_03: You think it was like an intimidation thing?
7:37
SPEAKER_03: Like they knew you guys were coming and they wanted to scare you off.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't know.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
7:42
SPEAKER_03: That's an odd response.
7:43
SPEAKER_03: Hi.
7:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, Talia, I don't know if you know this, but Ray actually went door to door once.
7:49
SPEAKER_03: Ray, tell Talia your story.
7:51
SPEAKER_05: You know the story?
7:52
SPEAKER_05: I was a brand new Christian and I was so aware that Jehovah's Witness has just stolen our thunder.
7:57
SPEAKER_05: So we had to go door to door around our church, and I knocked on this door in a very sincere tone.
8:01
SPEAKER_05: I said to the lady, Hello, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness.
8:04
SPEAKER_05: And she said, Well, I am.
8:06
SPEAKER_05: I've had this fear of doors since then.
8:09
SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's funny.
8:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
8:11
SPEAKER_03: So um, Mark, you've you've encountered Jehovah's Witnesses on the streets, and there seems to be, wouldn't you say it, more of an intimidation factor for people with Jehovah's Witnesses versus Mormons for some reason?
8:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a good way to put it.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: I think uh Ron Rhodes, inside of his uh book on Jehovah's Witness, he said the average Jehovah's Witness can turn the average Christian into a doctrinal pretzel in less than 30 seconds.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: And and why is that?
8:38
SPEAKER_00: I I my experience is that they study very specific things, but they're not really ready to go deep.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: They're not ready for pushback.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh I remember uh living not not too far from here, and I had some Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door, and they wanted to have a conversation, and I they pull out a pamphlet on uh the Trinity.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, I actually wrote an article on that pamphlet right there.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: When that came out right there, they were done.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: And I and I said, Hey, I I just want to point out some inconsistencies and how you took C.S.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: Lewis out of context as you quoted him there.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: They said, Well, we're not interested in debating.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh you have your truth.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: We're interested in going door to door and sharing the truth.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: And I said, But but are you interested in the inconsistencies that are inside there?
9:27
SPEAKER_00: And they said, Well, you know, we're just gonna kind of move on.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, I can't have you move on.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: And they were like, Wait, what do you mean?
9:33
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna kidnap you.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna kidnap you.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay, do what you gotta do.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: And so I went with them to the next house, and they knocked on the door of Reba.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so they rang the doorbell.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: Reba opens the door, and I said, I go, I go, hi, Reba.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: They're about to lie to you, and I'm just gonna clean up the clean up the mess.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, they just turned around and they walked, they walked off, and next thing I know, uh, it's like all the Jehovah's Witnesses inside the area, they came together, and this gentleman who seemed to be the one in charge, the the main one, maybe an elder of some sort, he had said, uh, what seems to be the problem?
10:08
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, um, I'm not gonna have you spreading lies in my community.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: So if you're gonna go up to the doors, uh, I'm gonna go with you, because these are my neighbors and I care about them.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: And they said, Uh, why are you going to do this?
10:20
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, you're not interested in having a conversation.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: And he says, No, we are.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: That's why we're out here.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: And I go, Well, no, the moment you realized that I was given any sort of pushback, you did not want to have this conversation.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: And he said, What tell me what your gripe is.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: Tell you what, I will come back and I will meet with you.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Will you though?
10:40
SPEAKER_00: Will you come back to my house?
10:42
SPEAKER_00: And I so I called him out and I said, Look, you're welcome to come back to my house, but I would dare to say that my house is gonna be marked to some degree and you're not gonna come back.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: So in the meantime, while you're here and as I see you here, I'm gonna go right up next to you as you're talking to my neighbors.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: And so they left.
10:56
SPEAKER_03: Talia, as Mark mentioned being marked, um, you know, you were nodding.
11:01
SPEAKER_03: Is that something that was done?
11:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's so funny because ironically, this Saturday, Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door and I um talked to them for about 50 minutes, and I was they tried to leave numerous times.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: I talked about being born again, they reject the bodily resurrection of Jesus.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: We talked about that for a little bit.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: Every time they would get to a part where they couldn't defend what their belief was, because like you said, they don't go deep.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: They know very surface-level things.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: And so if you're talking to a Christian who knows only surface-level things, they will be able to win that battle.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: But when you try to go deep, they really are very resistant to that.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: And she would always say, Well, I can um come back after I do some research and da-da-da-da-da.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: And I'd say, Okay, that's fine, but can I ask you one more question?
11:49
SPEAKER_01: And then I said, I so I heard you believe Jesus is created.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: Like, can we get into that one?
11:55
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, but you know, she said she left it by saying, 'I will come back and have another conversation with you.' But I did mention that I was born again, and born-again Christians are like the like Satan worshippers of the world to them, they are the most deceived and they know that they will never become a Jehovah's Witness.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: So it's like a waste of time to talk to them.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if she actually will come back.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, if she does, it's only because I had mentioned that my mother-in-law is a Jehovah's Witness to her, and so they kind of feel like maybe there's a little hope there, which my mother-in-law is a Jehovah's Witness.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: So if she does come back, it'll likely be with an elder.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: But if I were to have been like, oh, I wrote an article about your Trinity article, no, they they're not interested in that.
12:39
SPEAKER_03: You know, Oscar, I was thinking, I know you used to like to eat Christians for lunch when you were an atheist back in the day, but did you ever actually encounter Jehovah's Witnesses?
12:46
SPEAKER_03: I you know, I have to be honest, I don't know that if I did.
12:50
SPEAKER_05: You don't have to be honest.
12:52
SPEAKER_04: I get to be honest.
12:53
SPEAKER_04: So I get to be honest.
12:55
SPEAKER_04: Um I actually don't know if I ever did, and I don't know that I would have distinguished the difference between the two, if I'm being honest.
13:02
SPEAKER_04: Um I get to be honest.
13:05
SPEAKER_04: Something that stood out to me in your testimony was your recognition that Jehovah's Witness started in the 1800s.
13:14
SPEAKER_04: Um something that that I've always kind of thought about here is how fascinating it is that when the scriptures were removed from history, so something unique happened in 1776, we we established the United States of America, and Christianity starts to grow, but for the very first time it grows disconnected from Orthodox church history, from the context and connection to its land and its original meaning intent.
13:43
SPEAKER_04: And so what you have are people separated from Roman Catholicism for the good, but reading the Bible on their own and reinterpreting it in a different way.
13:53
SPEAKER_04: And I don't think it's just irony that Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness and soon after Pentecostalism, like there's a lot of growth of these new, some of them we would call, I wouldn't call Pentecostalism a cult, but some of these new cults that still live today.
14:10
SPEAKER_04: And what I was thinking about that because you mentioned, yeah, I've had conversations with Jehovah's Witness, and when they give you a Bible verse, it's like so skewed.
14:20
SPEAKER_04: It's such a distorted version of the original meaning.
14:24
SPEAKER_04: What was it like for you to read the Bible for the first time with new eyes, empowered by the Spirit, but also connected to its original meaning?
14:33
SPEAKER_04: What kind of unwinding process was that for you?
14:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness, it was insane.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: When I first read the Bible, it was like somebody had taken a switch and turned it on, and it just fell open, and I just could understand, I could understand it.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: And I had been reading the Bible my whole life, you know, it's probably about the same 200 regurgitated scriptures they use, but I thought.
14:54
SPEAKER_05: So you're talking about New World Translation.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the New World Translation, yeah.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: And I thought I was familiar with Bible stories and stuff like that, but I understood that like these are not just words on a page, these are things that are alive.
15:05
SPEAKER_01: Like when it says who the sun sets free is free indeed.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: I experienced that before I knew it was a scripture.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: And so when I read the scripture, I'm like, that's alive, that's real.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: And all the Bible stories, they started making sense.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: Like that they weren't just stories, they were like most prophetic in nature, and they were explaining like a deeper truth.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, when I read the Bible for the first time, it was, I remember saying it felt like the words were like floating off the page because it was so alive.
15:34
SPEAKER_03: It was you know, Ray's often talked about how it's like you go from looking at things in black and white to technicolor, you know, just comes alive.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:42
SPEAKER_05: I was being a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses this morning at the local college.
15:47
SPEAKER_05: Went up to them and said, What happens after someone dies?
15:49
SPEAKER_05: I said, Do you believe in heaven and hell?
15:51
SPEAKER_05: They said, No, there's no hell.
15:52
SPEAKER_05: We believe in heaven.
15:53
SPEAKER_05: Jehovah's kingdom is coming to this earth.
15:55
SPEAKER_05: And I said, And God's will be done on this earth as it is in heaven.
15:58
SPEAKER_05: I said, How do I enter the kingdom?
16:00
SPEAKER_05: And they said, get a jdub.org.
16:03
SPEAKER_05: And I said, No.
16:04
SPEAKER_05: I said, I could die before I get a jdub.
16:07
SPEAKER_05: Tell me, how do I enter the kingdom?
16:09
SPEAKER_05: And they couldn't tell me.
16:10
SPEAKER_05: I said, and you don't believe in hell?
16:12
SPEAKER_05: I said, What does Jehovah believe in justice and truth?
16:15
SPEAKER_05: What's gonna happen to Hitler?
16:16
SPEAKER_05: Well, he's just dust.
16:18
SPEAKER_05: I said, so one bullet, and it's all over 11 million people killed because of what he did, and there's no justice.
16:25
SPEAKER_05: And uh they wouldn't even take in uh they wouldn't take in and out cards from me.
16:30
SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't even take those.
16:31
SPEAKER_05: Because you're a born-againer.
16:32
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
16:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
16:33
SPEAKER_03: Born-againer.
16:34
SPEAKER_03: All right, so so Talia, then take us back.
16:36
SPEAKER_03: All right, you're you're growing up in this context where your family was devout and respected as well.
16:42
SPEAKER_03: Uh, and I'd love you to talk about why that is.
16:45
SPEAKER_03: So, so what was that like?
16:46
SPEAKER_03: And at what point did you begin to think, wait a minute, I don't know if this is really true.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, my family was very respected.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: My grandpa was the man that all of the whatever um position he was in, he had ended up getting sick, so he couldn't actually, he had to remove all of his actual titles when I was about two years old.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: But he lived for another 14 years.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: He was given six months to live, lived another 14 years.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: So he was treated as like an honorary, like Bethelite, a honorary circuit overseer, honorary, like all of these positions always came to him for the answers.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: And even still to this day, my mom still says, I wish grandpa was here because he would know how to handle this.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: He would know what the actual doctrine is because he was just, I don't even know why.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: He he was really respected as the kind of like the wise man, yeah, you know, of the of the group.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: And so my grandma is very similar.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: My grandma is very wise on their doctrine, and that typical elder's wife type of woman.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: My mom, the same.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: We all just we were all very devout Jehovah's Witnesses.
17:56
SPEAKER_05: So when you say wise, you're not talking biblically wise.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm talking um wise in their doctrine, wise in their understanding, wise in their own eyes, really, is what I'm talking about.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: Um He knew his doctrine.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: He knew there's a book that the elders get called the Elder's Book, and you're not supposed to read it unless you're an elder.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: And my grandpa knew that thing like it was the Bible, and it's kind of like their protocols and how they do things, and so he was kind of like the walking encyclopedia on Jehovah's Witness doctrine.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: So, um, you know, and I was the in the heritage of that, and so and I was very um studious, always was, and so people would like to have me at their doors, and um, I would be conversational with the householder and that type of thing.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: So they really thought, oh, she's gonna be a missionary or she's gonna be one of the anointed, one of the 144,000, they used to say, because I would ask spiritual questions that a lot of people couldn't answer.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: I would ask, why was Enoch taken up?
18:58
SPEAKER_01: Like that seems weird.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, these types of things.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: But I had questions, but I never doubted it was the truth.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, when I I more had like an identity problem from being adopted, I think I was really curious what would life have been like if I was worldly?
19:17
SPEAKER_01: I believed it was wrong, and I believe worldly is just a name for anybody who's not a Jehovah's Witness.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: I believed they were all wrong and they were gonna be doomed to Armageddon, but I was still curious, like, what would it be like to celebrate Christmas?
19:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, if I wasn't adopted, I would have been celebrating Christmas.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: And so just that that desire drew me into like wanting to be worldly, um, wanting to experience the world.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: And then once I started working at 1617, I I just had some coworker friendships, just normal relationships with my coworkers.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: And the elders started to treat me like I was like completely falling off the bandwagon because you're not really supposed to have friends, even if they're your coworkers, like you would never get lunch with them, that type of thing.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: Like um, and so after that, I kind of was just like, Well, I'm just gonna take a break from the organization for a couple years, do what I want to do, and then I'll come back when I'm ready.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: And so I just set out to do that.
20:10
SPEAKER_03: Did that rile your family up?
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, it was traumatic for everybody.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: It was traumatic for everybody.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: I and it wasn't even it didn't even start off as anything crazy.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: At first, I was gonna move to Florida with a Jehovah's Witness couple, they were a married couple, and as I mentioned before we started filming, she had a tattoo, and just because of that, she was viewed as bad association, as the tiniest little tattoo.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: And so when I went to leave to go to Florida with them, my dad wrote me this big long letter.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: It was like four pages long about like how I was disappointing Jehovah and how I was leaving him and leaving the truth.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't actually at that point leaving the truth as they call it.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: I just was moving to Florida with a bad association person.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: So it was a lot of trauma for like the next couple years of like that, like they were experiencing trauma too, because like from their mind, this is the worst thing that can happen, is your child or your daughter can leave the truth.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: So it was hard because I was causing that for them, and causing them that amount of pain was like painful to me, but I just didn't know what else to do.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and then eventually I ended up meeting a guy.
21:27
SPEAKER_01: We started a relationship, we had a child together, and then when I was pregnant with my son, um, the elders finally reached out to me and we hadn't talked for maybe like a year.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: The last time we had talked, they had kicked me out of my brother's wedding said I couldn't be a maid of honor because they assumed I was living away I wasn't, and then after that had happened is when I was like, Well, if you're gonna talk, we'll give you something to talk about, was my childish teenager mentality response.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: Um so then he called me and he wanted to meet with me and told him I was pregnant, and then they officially just fellowshipped me, which is where now officially nobody can talk to you, you're shunned.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: Um and that's when that began when I was pregnant at 19.
22:11
SPEAKER_04: What was that like for you?
22:13
SPEAKER_01: Traumatizing.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: Um But I almost was disassociated, so I didn't even have to acknowledge what was going on.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: And I remember years later, I ended up I had many weird experiences in my hometown.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: I would go to the grocery store and my grandma would ignore me in the hallway of the grocery store.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I would I would not go certain places all the time because I knew Jehovah's Witnesses were gonna be there.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: And so I decided to move away when my son was about 14 months old.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: And that's when I kind of started to wake up a little bit.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: But once I fully woke up and I got a video sent to me during COVID, I had become obsessed with cults.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, I believe God did that to me, like had me watch a cult documentary, and I'm like, oh, this is really interesting.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: Started kind of going down that route.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: Rabbit hole of cults.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: And I got a YouTube video sent to me.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: It was a 15-minute video, and it was a whiteboard video explaining the bite model, behavior control, information control, thought control, emotional control.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: And he was basically just describing like Jehovah's Witnesses.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: And I couldn't deny it.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: And so that's when I officially awoke to being in a cult.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: And once I realized I was raised in a cult, that's when I kind of felt the depth of being disfellowshipped because now I realize like how psychologically damaging all of this is for everybody.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: And it was all for a lie.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: Back when I thought I was disfellowshipped and I could blame myself, like, well, I did something wrong and I deserved this.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't as painful for me.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: But when I realized that it was all built off of lies and sand, I was like, wow, this organization's like robbing people of families and experiences, and it's for nothing.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: And that's when I had like I went to a therapist during COVID and I he was like had a mask on, had a like ventilator system on his arm.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: Like it was like a very weird situation, but I just cried the entire time, the entire first hour I had with him.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: And he was like, I think you maybe are having a little PTSD moment or something.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: That I was what I just remember saying to him is, I can't believe I'm never gonna have dinner with my family again.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: And it's all because of something that's a lie.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: And I was trying to explain it to this guy who doesn't know anything about cults really, or and it was just so heavy on me.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: But that like weight of what had actually happened didn't actually hit me until I had woken up and realized it was a cult.
24:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
24:44
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
24:45
SPEAKER_04: Could you maybe unpack bite for just three minutes or so for maybe someone who's listening who's never heard that um category or that framing before that might help them communicate to friends that they think might be in a cult, or even by chance someone might be in a cult listening to this.
25:01
SPEAKER_04: Could you explain that?
25:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the bite model is a model that was used by um psychologists who study cult mind control, um, like what it actually is to hijack somebody's mind versus somebody just believes in something strongly.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: And there's four things that are necessary for somebody to um be under a brainwashing or to have their brain controlled, and that would be um behavior control.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: So you control how somebody behaves, the things they can and can't do, or where or say.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: Um there's uh information control, which is a huge one that the Jehovah's Witnesses have, where you they the group controls what information the person can take in or can't take in.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: For Jehovah's Witnesses, you're not allowed to ever look up anything on the internet about Jehovah's Witnesses.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: If anybody says, and and it goes so far as to even control how you view the information that you are given.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: If somebody tells you something about Jehovah's Witnesses, you immediately are told that's a lie from Satan.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: So even if you are presented with information, your brain already has this like built-in thing where you think it's a lie.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: A filter.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: A filter, yeah, absolutely.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: And then the thought control is where they control your thoughts.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: So if you are in a group where they tell you like good thoughts and bad thoughts are good questions, bad questions, um, you and your brain will start to do that itself.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: So, for example, if I ever had the thought that maybe the Jehovah's Witnesses wasn't the truth, I would think Satan's getting in my mind into my mind.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: Or if you you have a conversation with Jehovah's Witness and you show them a scripture that points to Jesus being divine or Jesus being Yahweh, they will start to think that their mind is turning on them and Satan's getting into their mind.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: So now they're they can't even think.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: You've taken away their ability to think, um, which is ultimately how a cult is created because they can't critically think.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: And then emotional control.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: So you control their emotions, you control their family, you control their relationships, you have the ability to tell everybody in their world, stop talking to them and don't talk to them ever again.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: And so you are emotionally tied to this group because if they're wrong, you've built everything on them.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, that that breakdown of the bite model I realized, they mean everything.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: And the information control, too.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: Part of that for the Jehovah's Witnesses and for most cults is they really redefine words.
27:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, we were raised calling the Jehovah's Witnesses the truth, and so you would say, Oh, this person's in the truth, this person's out of the truth.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: So your brain's constantly being reinforced that this is true, this is true, this is true.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: It's like hypnotic.
27:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, and they use that phrasing in that video, and they use the phrasing worldly to think of everybody outside as worldly.
27:49
SPEAKER_03: Right.
27:50
SPEAKER_03: You know, I saw a video recently that was showing an indoctrination video by Jehovah's Witnesses specifically regarding Jehovah's Witnesses that have pulled away and how to like rebuff them.
28:04
SPEAKER_03: And it was it was a reenactment.
28:06
SPEAKER_03: So they had a guy coming up, hey man, you know, and they were just they were kind of walking them step by step uh in how to respond and like what to say.
28:15
SPEAKER_03: So I mean that programming that that's that's pretty serious.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
28:19
SPEAKER_03: You know, Mark Talia said something that that sparked something off in me in terms of the the replacement of terminology.
28:27
SPEAKER_03: Uh, it's because that's how a lot of people get duped.
28:29
SPEAKER_03: They hear the same words, the same theological phrases, perhaps, but but like we've heard it said before, it's like the skin of the truth stuffed with a lie.
28:38
SPEAKER_03: Speak to that.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Very true.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: And you know, obviously it's not just Jehovah's Witness, but it's Mormons.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: You know, I have a lot of Mormons inside my family, and when you would share a message, it's very common for them to come up and say, what a great message.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, because they are reinterpreting it through their lens of what they've heard for the definitional terms, right?
28:57
SPEAKER_00: So um, but but along this lines, right, it's interesting.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, you're taught to meditate on truth, meditate on God's word, but you would never find yourself on your own time.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: I just want to sit with the Lord and meditate through his word.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: I just want to read his word.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: It would always be uh through the lens of how to maybe defend Jehovah's Witness or how to have a better conversation with someone.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: But it's never, hey, I'm just gonna kind of relax right now around the pool and just kind of take in what I'm reading.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
29:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, I never saw my parents or my grandparents just read the Bible.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: It was always the aid and then the Bible there as a reference.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: So like they'd read the articles and then they would maybe read the cited verses, but they would never just read a chapter of the Bible.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: And when they say they're doing research, they mean they're going on to jw.org and typing in the topic and learning what the organization has to say about it.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: They're not just going to the Bible.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: So that is genuinely their idea of research.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: And JW.org, the governing body, has literally told them not to meet independently for their own independent Bible studies.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: Because in COVID, they were trying to do that.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: And like even previously, they've tried to just friends have tried to fellowship and say, hey, let's just do our own Bible study.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: And they say, No, don't do that.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: We've provided plenty for you guys to learn.
30:18
SPEAKER_05: So when you say Bible study, you're saying, again, the New World Translation.
30:21
SPEAKER_05: How different is that from God's Word?
30:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, this Saturday when I was there's a Jehovah's Witness at my door, I was reading to her Philippians 2, 6.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: And I was reading it out of my King James Bible because I was recording on my phone.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, I would have pulled up like the NIV or something.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: And until she left, I didn't look it up.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: But the the way the New World Translation translates that verse that is saying that Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: They translate it, Jesus did not consider the I did not even consider the idea that he was ever equal with God.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: How long does it take to go through their their literature?
31:04
SPEAKER_00: So if you're gonna meet with someone and they have like, I remember going for almost a year, going through meeting weekly with these Jehovah's Witnesses, How to Live Forever, I think was the name of the book.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: It was like a red book, if I remember correctly, maybe brown, I don't remember.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh towards the end, they were really getting the grasp that I'm not interested in this.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: And their whole demeanor had kind of changed.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: Can you trace through maybe what is the end?
31:27
SPEAKER_00: The end goal, obviously, is to let's turn these people into Jehovah's Witness, let's get them baptized, let's let them answer those questions so they can be able to do that.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: But uh, at what point do you go?
31:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't think this is working out, I don't think they're listening.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: Do you even care about something like that?
31:44
SPEAKER_00: Because you when you have to report back with the conversations, what is the mindset when you're meeting with someone and you're wanting to go through a book like that?
31:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you used to want to see them always um making effort.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: So within a few weeks, they should be going to the meetings.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: A couple weeks after that, they should be wearing our dress code.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: If you're a man, you would have been shaving your beard back when I was in.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: You're allowed to have a beard now.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: I guess Jehovah changed his mind about that.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: Here you go, Mark.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, they're they would want you to be showing those works that align with that you actually are buying into what they're saying.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: If you just study with them for a year and you never start going to the meetings or are talking about wanting to be baptized, then they will like discourage, the elders would probably discourage meeting with them and start to get suspicious.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: And actually, just a month or two ago, there was an article that was saying that, you know, be wary of apostates.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: And then it's like, well, how do we know if somebody's an apostate?
32:45
SPEAKER_01: And it said, well, sometimes they'll act like they're interested in a Bible study, but they're really just trying to plant seeds of doubt.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: So now there's this fresh idea in Jehovah's Witnesses' minds that like people who pretend to be interested might actually be apostate.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: So they're always skeptical until you're in the water getting dunked, they are skeptical that there's an ulterior motive.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: Did you ever see somebody take communion?
33:08
SPEAKER_01: Nope.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: It passes and everybody passes.
33:11
SPEAKER_04: Rejects could you talk about that?
33:13
SPEAKER_04: Maybe some of our audience doesn't know what that what that is.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only 144,000 will go to heaven.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: And those are the only people that are in the new covenant.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: And so they are the only ones who are born again spirit anointed, all of that.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: And they're also the only ones who partake of the bread and the wine during communion.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: So everybody else, you all gather to observe the memorial of Jesus Christ every year on Nice and 14, but nobody partakes besides maybe one or two person persons in a kingdom hall, but I was never in one that I saw that.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: So my whole life I never saw anybody partake of bread, the bread and the wine.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: And we just would pass it and reject Jesus.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: It was a physical manifestation of what we were doing in the spirit.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: Because we were rejecting, I was rejecting my spiritual um ability to be born again, my ability to be in the new covenant, a free gift that was just handed to me, and I'm taking it and I'm passing it on.
34:09
SPEAKER_03: So is that a distinct moment for you when as a believer you partook of the Lord's table for the first time?
34:14
SPEAKER_01: I think I did that within the first week.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: I was like, went and got, yeah.
34:18
SPEAKER_03: It's me emotional.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
34:20
SPEAKER_05: Is the number 144,000 mean reached yet?
34:24
SPEAKER_01: Depends on who you ask.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: They'll say, Oh, we're getting real down there because it's the last days, so you won't see an anointed person, but but they had to change their numbers because they actually report these things and the numbers started going up.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: And even the Jehovah's Witness I just spoke to on Saturday, it's one of the things I talked to her about is the 144,000.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: I was asked her, Can you show me in scripture where they are the ones in heaven and not the ones on earth?
34:47
SPEAKER_01: Of course, she couldn't do that.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: But she was like, Well, some of them are already in heaven because most of the early church was anointed, and that's what they have to say to make the entire New Testament work is well, this was written to anointed believers, but we're not anointed, so it has a different meaning for us.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's amazing.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I asked her that same question.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: I brought up the kingdom that you brought up with the Jehovah's Witnesses today.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: I prefaced it.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: I was like, Do you believe you are gonna be in the kingdom?
35:11
SPEAKER_01: And she said, Yes, of course.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, so Jesus is gonna be your king, correct?
35:15
SPEAKER_01: That's your desire.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: She said, Yes.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: And then I read her John 3, 1 through 5, you must be born again, or you can't even see the kingdom of God, let alone enter it.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: And no answer.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: But she did ask me, what does being born again for you mean?
35:29
SPEAKER_01: And I got to.
35:30
SPEAKER_03: Oh.
35:30
SPEAKER_03: So you you never know with with those sorts of things.
35:33
SPEAKER_03: Like, even if someone is coming across like they they're being defensive or whatever, they may be asking sincerely.
35:42
SPEAKER_03: You know, it was like when Jesus was approached by the religious uh leaders who were sent to investigate him.
35:48
SPEAKER_03: One of them said, What is the what you know, what's the greatest commandment of all?
35:51
SPEAKER_03: And I've always thought maybe that was you know his own sincere question, wanting to know.
35:56
SPEAKER_03: So we don't know what's happening, you know.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
35:57
SPEAKER_03: But Talia, we'd love you to now pick it up and and get to what happened and and how did it build to where you ended up coming to know the Lord.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: So after I'd gotten disfellship, I was kind of just floating around the world, getting into some new age beliefs.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's hard to deny that there is a spiritual world out there.
36:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I was dabbling in that a little bit.
36:17
SPEAKER_01: But once I realized I was raised in a cult, I started to um really analyze and realize there has to be a reason for there being this big cult.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: Like it's not all, it didn't just happen.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: Um I started to realize there was a spiritual reality where there was like the devil must have been at the top of the cult because it was really intelligent.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: And I knew now how deceived everybody was, and for there to be that much deception, there has to be a truth.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of started just like working backwards from that point and realizing um if the devil's at the top of this religion, what is he trying to hide from people?
36:56
SPEAKER_01: And then I realized that you know, Jesus is different in every single religion, whether it's Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christians, they all have a different Jesus, but like everybody understands the fathers mostly.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: Um obviously there's some differences there.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: But then I started coming across um videos with Jeff Durpin talking to Jehovah's Witnesses at the carts.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: And he had this verse I'd never heard before where Jesus was saying, unless you believe I am He, you will die in your sins.
37:25
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, so the identity of Jesus really does matter.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: And what does he mean there that I am he?
37:32
SPEAKER_01: What does that even mean?
37:34
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't seem like a full sentence on its own.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: So I really just like started diving in.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: And I did not believe what Jeff Durbin was saying.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: I still thought, you know, had the indoctrination that he's crazy.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: He believes Jesus is God, but obviously who Jesus is matters.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: I watched all the videos that he had, and you know, I got to the point where I just realized I'm never gonna know on my own.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: There's I'm never gonna be able to understand this and figure it out with confidence on my own.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I like took a shower so that my husband couldn't hear me because he was also a raised Jehovah's Witness.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: And I just prayed to God and I said, God, if you are real, I need you to tell me.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: And if you tell me, I will worship you with my whole life.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: I just need to know, and I need to know for sure.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: And I said to him, Um, like, if you're real, I would really like if you sent me like a child.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: Because in my mind, I was thinking, what if I pray and then like Mormons show up the next day or Muslims show up the next day?
38:29
SPEAKER_01: Like I was scared of it being a coincidence type of thing, but I'd never had like a kid show up at my door or something like that.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: And so in my mind, I just thought about that and I prayed for it.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: And um the next day I get my son, I take him to preschool, and I had three hours before I had to be back to pick him up, and I go to this park.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: I just felt so strongly I needed to be at this park.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: And I I knew like I am not leaving until I know who Jesus is.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, I need to know today.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: I can't have this like wrestling going on inside of me where I don't know who God is.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm sitting there and I'm reading that scripture.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: Unless you believe I am he, you will die in your sins.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking about that, and I'm thinking about this religion and and how destructive it is, and all the destructive religions, and how it must be so precious, like whatever this is covering up, it must be awesome.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: And it something in me, just in that moment, that knowledge and the knowledge that all these religions changed the identity of Jesus, it just like compelled me to believe like Jesus must be God.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: And I just remember sitting there and I was just I didn't know what was happening, but I knew the atmosphere around me was just changing so dramatically.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: And I look up and it's like the whole world felt frozen.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: The whole the trees, there was like no wind in the trees.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: I just felt like I had like stepped into eternity and was just experiencing God.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: And I was like scared, I felt intoxicated for a few seconds, to be honest.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: And I was scared about that.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: I was scared I was gonna have to pick my son up.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know if this was gonna last all day, had no idea about being born again, and I could just like feel the spirit of God come over me and come into my body, and it was incredible, and I really will never be able to describe it, but I just I knew I was a different person from that moment on, but I still had some confusion about I still wanted a yes or no.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: I wanted yes or no because I wanted to get God right so bad, and so you know that feeling of being overwhelmed by something starts to dissipate a little bit, and I'm thinking in my head, like, God, please don't go, please don't go.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: Like just give me a yes or no, are you Jesus?
40:52
SPEAKER_01: And um looking, I'm it wouldn't have been crazy in that moment if Jesus would have showed up because I'm experiencing something out of this world already, so I'm thinking maybe Jesus is gonna come and tell me.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: But I look this way, there's nobody coming, I look that way, there's nobody coming, and then all of a sudden there's a knock on my window, and there's this little boy.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: And I knew he was from God.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: I just knew he's from God.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: Whatever he says, listen to it.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: And he asks if he can interview me.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: And I said yes, and he asked me, Have you ever lied before?
41:30
SPEAKER_01: And it was like my hand was caught in the cookie jar.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: And I understood now too, because all of this before up to this point, it was all about who is Jesus, who is God, and now I'm understanding the gospel.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: And I said to him, Yes, I I probably sat for like 10-15 seconds before I could get a yes out.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: And then he asked me, Have you ever stole anything?
41:56
SPEAKER_01: And I said, All I could think about was the fact that I like the biggest sin that was impressed upon me and grievingly was that I had been rejecting Jesus.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: But I was like, Okay, and yes, I've stolen, so I have to say yes to that too.
42:13
SPEAKER_01: So I said yes, and then he said, Have you made Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior and let him pay for your sins?
42:20
SPEAKER_01: And I said, I think I just did that.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I need you to tell me, is Jesus God?
42:27
SPEAKER_01: And he said, Yes, Jesus is God.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: And it is like a veil was just ripped off of my face, and I could understand everything.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: I could understand the context for all of the religions of the world.
42:45
SPEAKER_01: It gave me context for everything, and I'm just sitting there and I can't explain this to this kid.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: I can't explain what I'm experiencing.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I literally felt my spirit come alive.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: I literally felt my old man be crucified with Christ, but I didn't know any scriptures about that.
43:01
SPEAKER_01: So at the same time, I'm thinking maybe I'm crazy.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: But it was so real, it's the realest thing I've ever experienced.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: And I just turned my car off and sat and talked with this boy for a while.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: And I asked him what I could, like, why are you here?
43:16
SPEAKER_01: I was really curious.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: And he had just gotten saved four months before that, which really hit me because as a Jehovah's Witness, like you count the hours you go in service, you have to go in service, and you count those that time.
43:30
SPEAKER_03: It's not door to door.
43:31
SPEAKER_01: Door to door, yeah.
43:32
SPEAKER_01: Like you're not actually doing it to save somebody or out of joy or love of the gospel.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: It's a requirement.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, but here's this little kid who his parents aren't even telling him to go door to door, and he's on his way to tennis practice, and he sees some people don't approach me.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: I don't know why, but like people don't approach me in life, and he just knocks on my window and shares the gospel with me when all he really knows is two questions.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: He just asked me two questions and he asked if I'd ever give my life to the Lord.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: And beyond that, he couldn't, he was like a fresh baby in the Lord, you know.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: And that struck me, and you know, then he had to leave.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: And I got in my car, and I felt like a newborn baby driving my car.
44:18
SPEAKER_01: I felt like a newborn baby, and I didn't know any scriptures, but I remember telling my husband, I feel like I've been born again.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: And he, you know, and I remember saying, like, I was like, it's gonna sound crazy, but I feel like my spirit got crucified with Christ.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: And that sounds crazy.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: So then when I could get my Bible and I started just devouring the word, I could show him.
44:44
SPEAKER_01: I said that.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: Like, remember, I said like that I was crucified with Christ.
44:48
SPEAKER_01: Remember that?
44:48
SPEAKER_01: And he was like, you know, I do remember that.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: How did he take that when you said that?
44:54
SPEAKER_01: When I first came home that first day.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when you said, I feel like I've been crucified with Christ.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: And you started using this terminology, and there's a fire underneath you, and there's a distance.
45:04
SPEAKER_00: I would imagine to some degree from him.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: Yes, he was very resistant because I was like a space cadet.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: Like I had like my head was in the clouds of heaven for a week or two, especially until I could get my Bible, because I really didn't know if what I was saying was scriptural or if what I was saying was true, or if I was the only one who'd ever experienced something like this.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: Like I would still from time to time Google like symptoms of my experience and see what would pop up.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: Like, and you know, it would always just be like Billy Graham things, or I think really living waters would pop up, but I didn't watch a lot of them because I wanted to have as least amount of influence as possible.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to see, okay, what does my Bible say?
45:45
SPEAKER_01: Will it say the same thing?
45:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't want man to influence me.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: And then when I got my Bible for the first time and I read Acts, that's when I was like, the Pentecost.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: Like this has been happening.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I originally showed my husband biblically, is I was like, see, read this.
46:02
SPEAKER_01: Like, doesn't that sound like my experience?
46:03
SPEAKER_01: They were being told they were drunk.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: I was scared I was gonna be told I was drunk.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: Like it was just so many things.
46:11
SPEAKER_01: And little by little he remembered, okay, that's right, you did say that.
46:14
SPEAKER_01: And it sounded crazy, but it's in the word of God.
46:17
SPEAKER_01: So, because I I remember saying to him, I feel like I was saved by grace, but only through faith.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't because I actually did anything, I didn't do any works.
46:25
SPEAKER_01: And then I could show him that verse, and he, you know, because he was very work-minded, works-based-minded.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: And so when I could show him, all I did was believe.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: And like now my works are changing, but it was just believing.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: Um that's eventually what convicted him.
46:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then for him personally, like having the lack of like a father figure and knowing that like Jesus could love him and like he could have God as his father was the individual, like unique way that God like pricked his heart.
46:58
SPEAKER_03: Um Talia, you mentioned that later you put kind of two and two together that that little boy that came to your window had been influenced by Ray.
47:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
47:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, because we we sat and we talked for a while, and he said that he had was doing what he was doing because he was watching a man who rides his bike and talks to people.
47:19
SPEAKER_03: Another little boy that influenced me.
47:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
47:23
SPEAKER_03: Did you get his name?
47:24
SPEAKER_03: Did you stay in the house?
47:25
SPEAKER_01: His name was Alex, and no, I haven't stayed in contact with him.
47:28
SPEAKER_05: And I the word Alex means little boy with good news.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, wow, that's crazy.
47:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I tried to go back there at the same time.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: I think it was a Wednesday at like 12, and I tried to go back like maybe a month later, once I had more knowledge, and I was like, okay, I got saved that day.
47:45
SPEAKER_01: I got born again.
47:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, could had more terminology.
47:48
SPEAKER_01: I tried to go back and he wasn't there.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know, but I'm he's probably like 19 now, because this was five years ago.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: And so I think about him all the time.
47:56
SPEAKER_01: Every time I see somebody who looks around his age with his hair color, I'm like, Is that Alex?
48:01
SPEAKER_04: Like a tennis record.
48:03
SPEAKER_05: He's a tennis pro.
48:04
SPEAKER_05: I love what you said about the mind, the the veil coming off your mind.
48:08
SPEAKER_05: And I couldn't help but think of scripture, 2 Corinthians uh uh chapter 4, I think it is.
48:13
SPEAKER_05: Uh the God of this world has blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them.
48:24
SPEAKER_05: It's just such a beautiful verse.
48:26
SPEAKER_05: And it sums up your experience.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does.
48:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:29
SPEAKER_03: And you know, if there is an Alex out there and you still follow Living Waters to whatever degree, obviously you had seen our videos, we we'd love to hear from you because what a joy it would be to have a reunion with the two of you.
48:41
SPEAKER_03: You know, I mean it just smooths me.
48:42
SPEAKER_03: You know, the the fact that you specifically asked the Lord to send a young person to you to share that truth, and you're sitting there the next day.
48:50
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's easy, you know, it's easy to miss all this.
48:52
SPEAKER_03: Like you got to connect the dots and replay.
48:54
SPEAKER_03: Like the next day, you're sitting in your car and this young man comes and knocks on your window and he shares the gospel.
49:01
SPEAKER_03: Like that's why, like, when I think of atheists, like when when they hear stories like this, how can they deny the reality of God's intervention in human affairs?
49:13
SPEAKER_05: You know, you often talk about that divine convergence is what you say.
49:17
SPEAKER_05: That's right.
49:17
SPEAKER_05: How could God even orchestrate that one thing?
49:20
SPEAKER_05: Like it's not as if he's not doing other things, but he orchestrates the timing and the thoughts that you're having and that boy's words and the preparation of what he's gonna say.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's mind-boggling to think of the yeah, because I always think I it's so weird for me to try to explain why I asked for that boy, but it's because God was already working in my heart.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, you're only gonna believe it if it's a boy who's not just indoctrinated by his parents, he believes something different than his parents and isn't just forced to share the gospel.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I didn't know that that's why, but that is why.
49:55
SPEAKER_01: And I always think about that.
49:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, come on, Lord, let me meet Alex, let me find Alex like with a tennis racket somewhere, you know.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: I I go back to that place often that I was saved, um, and just do a little swooped around, see who's there.
50:09
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it is it is incredible.
50:11
SPEAKER_01: And I always thank you.
50:12
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for inviting me.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: Exactly, and like, yeah, let him know what actually happened.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: I always say to people when I'm encouraging them to share the gospel that the little boy who shared the gospel with me did not know much.
50:23
SPEAKER_01: He knew he had watched a couple videos of yours and asked me if I ever lied, if I ever stole, and and asked if I made Jesus my Lord and Savior, and then beyond that, I remember asking him things and he was very on shaky ground still.
50:37
SPEAKER_01: He was still learning.
50:39
SPEAKER_04: I love the goodness of God to work through the through the faithfulness of us, you know, like this kid Alex.
50:48
SPEAKER_04: He wasn't some great apologist, he didn't have all of his scholarly work done.
50:53
SPEAKER_04: He probably couldn't, I'm guessing, like defend the scriptural accuracy and historicity of the Bible.
51:01
SPEAKER_04: He loved the Lord, he was faithful and uh faithful to the spirits leading him to knock on that window and to faithfully share the law and the gospel.
51:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like the leper, you know, in Mark chapter one, who had been touched and healed by Jesus and then told, Don't tell anyone about what I did for you.
51:22
SPEAKER_03: You know, and that's that's what happens when you're transformed.
51:25
SPEAKER_03: You can't wait to tell other people.
51:27
SPEAKER_03: And I'm thinking about what happened, right?
51:29
SPEAKER_03: Alex does that, and he probably wasn't thinking down the line, you weren't thinking down the line.
51:35
SPEAKER_03: And we saw that video that's just been up now a little over two months that has almost a million views.
51:43
SPEAKER_03: A million people hearing that story that happened just between you and Alex on that day after you were in the shower the day before saying, God, send me a little boy.
51:52
SPEAKER_03: And then that happened.
51:53
SPEAKER_03: And then how many are gonna hear it now through the podcast and the video that goes out here?
51:56
SPEAKER_03: It's just amazing how the Lord works, you know.
52:00
SPEAKER_03: And Ray, you you have that story.
52:03
SPEAKER_03: I think it was Jehovah's Witnesses.
52:04
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if it was Mormon's Jehovah's Witnesses.
52:06
SPEAKER_03: I thought it was Jehovah's Witnesses when you first asked that question about the, if you want to share that, the three minutes to live.
52:11
SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah, I used to hide when Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door, and I actually latched onto what you said about being in pajamas.
52:17
SPEAKER_05: I thought that's a way to scare them away, just answer the door in your pajamas.
52:20
SPEAKER_05: Um, but I used to hide until I figured out this one thing that they're trusting in their own works.
52:26
SPEAKER_05: And so when there's a knock at the door, I'll open up and say, hi, how are you doing?
52:29
SPEAKER_05: Be very friendly and say Jehovah's Witnesses.
52:32
SPEAKER_05: They say, Yeah.
52:32
SPEAKER_05: I said, How can I enter the kingdom?
52:34
SPEAKER_05: Tell me.
52:35
SPEAKER_05: I've got three minutes to live, there's a knife on my back.
52:38
SPEAKER_05: How can I enter?
52:39
SPEAKER_05: And they go, Well, well, you've got you've got to do do things.
52:45
SPEAKER_05: No, no, I've got two and a half minutes to live now.
52:47
SPEAKER_05: Help me.
52:48
SPEAKER_05: And it just goes down and down until I got ten seconds to live.
52:51
SPEAKER_05: Can you help me?
52:52
SPEAKER_05: And they can't.
52:53
SPEAKER_05: It's because they don't understand grace.
52:54
SPEAKER_05: So then I just say, Do you think you're a good person?
52:56
SPEAKER_05: And they almost always say yes.
52:58
SPEAKER_05: Go through the commandments, show them they're not, and the only thing that can that can save them is the grace of God through the cross.
53:07
SPEAKER_05: And my confidence is that I've been told to go and preach the gospel to every creature.
53:11
SPEAKER_05: That's what I'm doing.
53:12
SPEAKER_05: I'm not getting an argument with Jehovah's Witnesses because I know that their big thing is that Jesus is not God.
53:18
SPEAKER_05: And I think back to when Peter was asked by Jesus, who do men say that I am?
53:23
SPEAKER_05: And Peter said, You're the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
53:26
SPEAKER_05: And Jesus said, Blessed are you, Peter, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
53:33
SPEAKER_05: So I don't say it is my job to try and convince a Jehovah's Witness that Jesus is God.
53:37
SPEAKER_05: I say that's the Father's job.
53:39
SPEAKER_05: All I'll do is do what I'm told to do, to preach the gospel to every creature, because the gospel is the power of God to salvation.
53:47
SPEAKER_05: And again, the God of this world has blinded the minds of them that believe not to the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God.
53:55
SPEAKER_05: So it's so important to proceed that gospel with the Lord to bring the knowledge of sin and show sin to be exceedingly sinful, and in comes the glorious gospel.
54:03
SPEAKER_05: And that's what we're told to preach.
54:05
SPEAKER_05: And I think that's the way to reach Jehovah's Witnesses.
54:07
SPEAKER_05: And it's not easy because I've got neighbors, one of them's a Catholic.
54:10
SPEAKER_05: I've prayed with him and uh and shared the gospel with him.
54:13
SPEAKER_05: Across the road are Hindus, and next door are Jehovah's Witnesses.
54:19
SPEAKER_05: And uh and I've witnessed all my neighbors except the Jehovah's Witnesses.
54:24
SPEAKER_05: Because when they moved in, I leaned over the fence and said, Hey, you haven't got air conditioning.
54:28
SPEAKER_05: I'd like to buy you an air conditioner.
54:30
SPEAKER_05: And they immediately said no.
54:32
SPEAKER_05: And I thought, what's going on?
54:33
SPEAKER_05: And most people say, Oh, that's very kind of you.
54:35
SPEAKER_05: And it was just no, stay away.
54:37
SPEAKER_05: We give them eggs, because we've got chickens that lay eggs.
54:40
SPEAKER_05: And the other day, something funny was going on in that household.
54:44
SPEAKER_05: And so I backed up my car and I says, Richard, everything okay?
54:48
SPEAKER_05: He says, My daughter died.
54:50
SPEAKER_05: And I can see I could see fear in his eyes, and my heart just broke for him because it was a hopelessness that I could detect with him.
54:58
SPEAKER_05: And we just talked for a few moments.
55:00
SPEAKER_03: But um Ray, you need to get a cue from In N Out and start putting scripture on the eggs.
55:08
SPEAKER_05: But uh, I've been uh really earnestly praying for this guy, Richard and Lisa.
55:12
SPEAKER_05: We've we've prayed for them, and I told him for years every night, and I'm praying that he will just give me a little opening and say, tell me what you believe.
55:21
SPEAKER_05: Anything like that.
55:22
SPEAKER_04: You can write on top of the eggs.
55:24
SPEAKER_04: His yoke is easy.
55:27
SPEAKER_04: That's a good yoke.
55:28
SPEAKER_02: I love that yoke.
55:29
SPEAKER_03: Um so so Talia, take us now post-conversion.
55:34
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so you come to Christ, and I wanted to say too, like you're talking about Ray, how the Lord reveals things.
55:39
SPEAKER_03: I mean, for you, having been a Jehovah's Witness, having not really understood anything within the Christian realm, to say to your husband, I think I was just saved by grace through faith.
55:47
SPEAKER_03: Like, I mean, and and the same thing happened to me in the sense that as a newer believer, I remember writing a paper in school, and I was writing these different things.
55:56
SPEAKER_03: I was just starting to read the Bible, so I didn't know it.
55:58
SPEAKER_03: But I started to come across scripture that tied in with some of the things I was already thinking in my mind, you know.
56:04
SPEAKER_03: In particular, how can someone who's blind guide someone who's blind lest they fall into a pit?
56:09
SPEAKER_03: And I had written that, and then I later read it in scripture, Jesus saying it.
56:12
SPEAKER_03: So it's it's just amazing, you know, how the Lord does that.
56:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:15
SPEAKER_03: But post-conversion, now you're saved.
56:17
SPEAKER_03: Your husband was an atheist, he ends up getting saved.
56:20
SPEAKER_03: So, what was the response from family and friends from your old circles?
56:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so at first my mom wanted to spar with me a little bit.
56:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we'd spar.
56:32
SPEAKER_01: And it was mostly through text messages because she's still not supposed to be talking to me.
56:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and we kind of just agreed not to be doing that anymore because nobody gets anywhere.
56:41
SPEAKER_01: And you you just get bombarded with like 20 scriptures, and you're not gonna let me explain each of them, but there's a reasonable explanation for each of them.
56:50
SPEAKER_01: Like my favorite personally is when the Ricksyang ruler asks Jesus, why do you call me good?
56:56
SPEAKER_01: There's none good but God.
56:57
SPEAKER_01: And I just love to ask, Well, was Jesus good?
57:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, but they use that as a verse for why Jesus wasn't God.
57:04
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean, families were shocked on both ends.
57:09
SPEAKER_01: His family was shocked too because he has five siblings.
57:11
SPEAKER_01: All of them are not practicing Jehovah's Witnesses, but they believe it still, they believe it's the truth.
57:17
SPEAKER_01: And here we are, like born again, like wear a cross, wearing crosses is like a no-no for them.
57:25
SPEAKER_01: And um, and we're not backing down.
57:28
SPEAKER_01: And the hardest thing to explain to my mom is like, I've been born again.
57:32
SPEAKER_01: Like, I can't change, I can't go back and undo that.
57:36
SPEAKER_01: It's already happened.
57:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm just gonna be growing in relationship with Christ now, but that is just something you can't explain to somebody who has never experienced it.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah.
57:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
57:47
SPEAKER_03: So are you anticipating they're going to eventually come across one of the videos that you've done publicly?
57:53
SPEAKER_03: And how are you feeling about that?
57:55
SPEAKER_01: Um if they do, then I hope they watch it.
58:01
SPEAKER_01: I hope they watch it, and I hope they know that I love them and like everything I do is because I love them.
58:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
58:08
SPEAKER_03: So in the remaining time we have together, we won't go too much longer, but I want to ask you a question that's always boggled my mind, and I I haven't looked yet to see w if it's been updated, because as you've said, things change, and and I'm sure the guys may have a couple questions for you as well after this.
58:25
SPEAKER_03: But the whole blood transfusion thing, because I know that they're taking passages that talk about not eating blood, right?
58:34
SPEAKER_03: But but that has had massive consequences over the decades in terms of babies that have died or people that have died because they wouldn't take a blood transfusion.
58:42
SPEAKER_03: Can you just speak to that and like what your understanding was of that growing up and then where where they're at now, from what you know?
58:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
58:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, what's crazy is growing up, I knew that if I were ever in a situation where I needed a blood transfusion, I would have to say no, but I never knew why, besides just God says not to.
58:59
SPEAKER_01: And God says that life is sacred.
59:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, and we had, I grew up with a watchtower where there's uh like 10 kids on the co the front of the watchtower, and they're basically commending them for dying for not getting a blood transfusion.
59:15
SPEAKER_01: And so they're, you know, you're told, well, they will immediately go to God's kingdom because they like sacrificed their life to not get a blood transfusion.
59:24
SPEAKER_01: So if you're ever in a situation where that's you, like know that just for being obedient, you would go to um paradise.
59:32
SPEAKER_01: But if you're not obedient, then you wouldn't be able to go to paradise.
59:35
SPEAKER_01: They literally say that it would be, or even if a parent makes a decision for their child, like a newborn, to give them a blood transfusion, they say that you are sacrificing their ability to go to paradise.
59:45
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
59:46
SPEAKER_05: So where do they go if they don't go to paradise?
59:50
SPEAKER_01: This is where the doctrine gets really confusing because they also believe in the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous, where you basically get a second chance unless you've been a Jehovah's Witness and left.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: So if you've been a Jehovah's Witness and you become apostate, then you don't get a chance to come back.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: Um But if you have never been a Jehovah's Witness, then you'll get resurrected, and then for the millennial reign, the thousand years, Jehovah's Witnesses will teach you how to be a Jehovah's Witness for a thousand years.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_01: And then at the end you get to decide if you want to stay as one or a lot of door knocking for a thousand years.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's interesting.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_01: But they actually just changed the blood doctrine.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: That's what I was wondering.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_01: Where now you're allowed to store your own blood for like a surgery, a prepared surgery, you can store your own blood to have it just in case you do need a blood transfusion.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_05: But why didn't they think that of s sooner?
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: And that used to be you couldn't get any sort of blood transfusion, but now they can have some where you can get um fractions, you can get just not any with like white blood cells.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_01: Like they it's so legalistic.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_01: To the cell, really.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_01: Like it's it is wild.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_05: Um I've often had the thought that Jehovah's Witnesses gain credibility for their false Bible through biblical prophecy, where they can say, look what's happening in the world, look in our New World translation where we've got the words of Jesus, where there's going to be an Armageddon and wars and rumors of wars.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_05: And that gives credibility to their false scriptures, which I think is tragic.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_00: Was there uh at what point did you begin to doubt the New World translation as being an accurate translation?
1:01:25
SPEAKER_01: Really, up until I got saved.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_01: Like when I got saved, I was like, oh, if they don't it says a God.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_01: And now I realized immediately how important the identity of Jesus is and what's John chapter one, you're right.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, John chapter one, yeah.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_01: Um and they're the only Bible that does that besides some Bibles who was made by like one was a Christadelphian who's also anti-Trinity, and then the other one was like Johannes Grieber Bible, where he was a spirit medium and said he channeled his Bible from spirits.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_01: So every other Bible says God.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_01: It's hosteos, you know, and so I immediately knew this Bible is uh has a large anti-Trinitarian bias.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_01: And then the Philippians 2, 6, you know, it was different.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_01: They just changed it to the one I had just said.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_01: Before that, it was a really weird version that was just vague and hard to understand.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_01: So it became clear to me immediately that, you know, they add the word other to Colossians 1, where it says Jesus created all things.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, their Bible says Jesus created all other things.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_01: And they they write in the footnote, well, if we wouldn't have put that, you would have got the impression that Jesus Himself wasn't created.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_04: It's like let me ask you, I think one of the things that we love to be is super pragmatic with our listeners and just giving them um opportunities to be able to share the gospel.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_04: So if you can give, there's so many things you've gone over, and I hope people will listen to this over and over again, because I think you've said a lot of helpful things.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_04: If there is one place to start, the next time a Jehovah's Witness knocks on my door, um, give me one arrow for my quiver to get to the gospel.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_04: Because as Ray mentioned, ultimately it's the gospel.
1:02:59
SPEAKER_04: What's what what where would you, where would you say this is a great place to start so that you can proclaim the gospel?
1:03:05
SPEAKER_04: What would that be?
1:03:07
SPEAKER_01: Usually they come with source some sort of kingdom message.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_01: They say we're here to preach about the kingdom.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_01: And so I use that kind of as a launch pad to okay, what do you believe about the kingdom?
1:03:16
SPEAKER_01: You believe you're gonna be in the kingdom, and then I bring up you must be born again.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: And then that starts a conversation.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_01: How do we become born again?
1:03:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, what is being born again?
1:03:26
SPEAKER_01: What is the gospel?
1:03:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, that goes hand in hand with the gospel.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, I would steer clear of any Trinity conversations unless you're very like dedicated to learning that topic, because it's really hard to really get anywhere with them.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, the gospel is where I would always be trying to direct the conversation back to how do how am I saved?
1:03:48
SPEAKER_01: If I were to become a Jehovah's Witness, would that mean I would be saved?
1:03:51
SPEAKER_01: Like mostly just asking them good questions, like, okay, well, I believe what you're telling me now.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_01: In three minutes, can I be saved if I accept a Bible study?
1:03:59
SPEAKER_01: Or like at what point do I get saved?
1:04:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, like there's so many things that when practically put, their theology doesn't make sense.
1:04:08
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, the three-minute question is a great one too.
1:04:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_04: One thing that was super helpful, because I'm thinking back, I was in Florida one time on a work trip, and I was reading, I was at a coffee shop and I was reading a book, and these Jehovah's Witnesses came up to me, and it was a man and two women.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_04: And so we started into a conversation and I was dialoguing with him, and he like he he like kind of rudely shushed the women away.
1:04:31
SPEAKER_04: Like he told them to leave.
1:04:33
SPEAKER_04: And I think maybe because we were getting into the dialogue about the about the specifics, and he didn't want them to be exposed to what I was saying.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_04: So I think things are clicking in my head now, these conversations that I've had.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's really hard for me to speak to Jehovah's Witness men.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_01: I had a conversation this Saturday, and that was with two women.
1:04:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, but if it were men, it would have gone differently because these women were actually like letting me speak and give them knowledge that they didn't know about their translation.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_01: We got into the translation, we got into John 1.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, but if they were men, they would have really just not wanted to hear me talk to them and in any way, shape, or form, maybe be giving them information they didn't know.
1:05:12
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
1:05:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, one of the things that I've done in speaking with Jehovah's Witnesses is I'll take them to Galatians 1, 6 to 10.
1:05:19
SPEAKER_03: You know, if anyone preaches any gospel contrary to that which we've preached to you, a lot of times people use that with Mormons, but because of the angel thing.
1:05:26
SPEAKER_03: But regardless, I mean, the point is if anyone preaches a gospel contrary to that which you've received, let him be accursed.
1:05:32
SPEAKER_03: They said, even the one that we would preach to you as apostles, if we come back, and then I'll take them to 1 Corinthians 15.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_03: What is the gospel?
1:05:40
SPEAKER_03: And the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and it says, by which you are saved.
1:05:45
SPEAKER_03: And then I'll take him to verses like Ephesians 2, 8, 9, by grace you've been saved through faith, that not of yourselves.
1:05:50
SPEAKER_03: And and I'll go in on that angle.
1:05:51
SPEAKER_03: But but again, as we always talk about, as was the case with you, a former Jehovah's Witnesses, you were confronted with the law.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_03: And so you gotta take it back to the conscience, and then through that bring in the glorious gospel.
1:06:04
SPEAKER_03: And Mark, we always talk about it's good to study apologetics, of course, but being familiar with the original so that you can spot counterfeits, right?
1:06:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh you're saying the original of Christianity, original of the Bible, so that we know what's called the truth of the word.
1:06:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_00: And one of my approaches when I am talking to Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or anybody along that lines is instead of getting into what I would call the weeds, and now you're getting into an apologetical sword fight concerning Phil and the subject, I like to start off with the gospel.
1:06:35
SPEAKER_00: And the way I do that is I'll say, uh, right from the beginning.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_00: So I would consider myself to be born again.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm a Protestant, I've rejected the Catholic Church, I am a Christian.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_00: What is your understanding?
1:06:46
SPEAKER_00: I wonder if I can get your opinion on it.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_00: What is your understanding of what I believe is going to happen to me when I die?
1:06:53
SPEAKER_00: How do I get to heaven?
1:06:54
SPEAKER_00: What is your understanding?
1:06:55
SPEAKER_00: And so now what I'm asking them is for their understanding of the gospel.
1:06:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm starting with the gospel.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_00: So now they're they're saying, Well, you believe the Father.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_00: Following as much as they would understand what I'm saying.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_00: And I'll go, all right, you know, that's actually pretty spot on, but you left a couple things out.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:07:11
SPEAKER_00: And then I focus in on two things.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_00: I focus in on grace, which they're not familiar with, and I focus in on Christ.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_00: The JC Ryle quote.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_00: Nobody can properly preach the gospel if you don't properly preach Christ.
1:07:21
SPEAKER_00: So then I go, all right, so this is my understanding.
1:07:24
SPEAKER_00: And now I'm sharing the gospel because that's the power of God on a salvation, Romans 1.16.
1:07:29
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm sharing the gospel, no apologetical sword fight.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_00: They came to my door, you know.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_00: I go, what a great opportunity.
1:07:36
SPEAKER_00: You don't need to dim the lights, get down in an army crawl and try to get away and escape away, like Ray does, right?
1:07:41
SPEAKER_00: So what I want to do is I engage, start with the gospel.
1:07:45
SPEAKER_00: And then when I'm all done, I say, How does this sound?
1:07:48
SPEAKER_00: Are you ready to repent and place your trust in the true Jesus as found inside the Bible?
1:07:52
SPEAKER_00: Right?
1:07:53
SPEAKER_00: Now, if they want to now engage into an apologetical sword fight, well, look at the time.
1:07:57
SPEAKER_00: I actually don't have any time.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_00: Not that I'm afraid to, I just know that it's as if the Holy Spirit stands aloof because he wants to convict the world of sin, judgment, and righteousness.
1:08:05
SPEAKER_00: Sin, transgression of God's law, righteousness, you don't have the righteousness required of the law, therefore you will be judged.
1:08:11
SPEAKER_00: And this is what Paul did with Felix in Acts 24, 25.
1:08:15
SPEAKER_00: You reason with Felix concerning self-control, or in his place, he had a lack of self-control, whatever that was.
1:08:21
SPEAKER_00: Now you don't have the righteousness required of the law, and you will be judged.
1:08:26
SPEAKER_00: What tends to happen is that when somebody knocks on your door, you're thinking, Boy, I wish, I wish James White was here.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_00: I wish Jeff Durbin was here because he could put you into a doctrinal pretzel.
1:08:37
SPEAKER_00: You know, he can quote the Septuagint, we're starting to start talking about the I am, the ego on me, Exodus chapter three, and I am the way through.
1:08:43
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like, but we don't have to do that.
1:08:45
SPEAKER_00: Nothing wrong with going down that route as long as you get to the gospel because that's what saves people.
1:08:52
SPEAKER_00: Be like Alex.
1:08:53
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
1:08:54
SPEAKER_00: Be like Alex.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the things, and I and I didn't start there because the way I started was more along the lines of I had these Jehovah's Witnesses come up to me and I'd say, Will you do me a favor and give me a working definition of Jehovah?
1:09:10
SPEAKER_00: Jehovah is what?
1:09:11
SPEAKER_00: And and whatever definition you give me, I don't want there to be shared attributes with anybody else.
1:09:19
SPEAKER_00: Just give me a working definition of Jehovah.
1:09:22
SPEAKER_00: And then as they begin to give their working definition, I would say, what would it mean to you for every attribute, every character that you just came up with?
1:09:30
SPEAKER_00: I'll give you two to three verses that demonstrate that Jesus fulfills that same attribute.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_00: Because I had 182 verses memorized going down the road, right?
1:09:40
SPEAKER_00: He's the omnipotent one, omniscient, forgiver of sins, he's the king, he's the Lord, he's the light.
1:09:44
SPEAKER_00: But then I'm thinking, flesh and blood is not revealed this to you, but my father which is in heaven.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_00: So what am I doing?
1:09:50
SPEAKER_00: Now these shields go up, and now they're they're decompobulated, and they don't know what to do with something like that.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_00: But then I never got to the gospel.
1:09:59
SPEAKER_00: So starting with the gospel by asking their opinion, that's why they're there, thanking them for being there and offering uh water bottles and stuff.
1:10:07
SPEAKER_00: They would never take literature.
1:10:09
SPEAKER_00: A couple of Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door uh less than a week ago.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_00: My wife had a chance to talk to them, tried to give them some stuff, they wouldn't take it.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_00: And so my wife actually asked them, why is it that you can't take any literature?
1:10:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm just curious why you can't take it.
1:10:20
SPEAKER_00: And her response to my wife was, well, the moment we receive that, it's as if we're acting as if we're open and that we don't have the truth.
1:10:29
SPEAKER_00: We have the truth, and we are taught not to take anything because we're not going to study anything that is anti or anything different.
1:10:38
SPEAKER_03: Did that ever come across as suspicious to you as a Jehovah's Witness that we can't read anything else from anyone else?
1:10:53
SPEAKER_01: Even if there is scrutiny about us, shouldn't we be able to uphold it?
1:10:56
SPEAKER_01: But we can't, we're not even allowed to know what the claims are.
1:10:59
unknown: Right.
1:11:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that we couldn't take anything.
1:11:01
SPEAKER_01: I remember at one point, now what I believe was a born-again Christian was um meeting with my grandma.
1:11:07
SPEAKER_01: My grandma would go and see her.
1:11:09
SPEAKER_01: And at one point, this lady asked to pray over my grandma, and that was a big ta-da.
1:11:14
SPEAKER_01: Like my grandma ended up coming back, and the elders were like, No, you can't have somebody else pray for you.
1:11:19
SPEAKER_01: So then she had to go back and tell her, like, you can't pray for me again.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, but I I totally agree.
1:11:26
SPEAKER_01: It all comes back to the gospel.
1:11:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, like I said, that that video I have of talking to the Jehovah's Witnesses, the my women's Bible study group listened to it and we were talking about it the other night.
1:11:36
SPEAKER_01: And everybody is like, oh man, I could never like know that much because I did get a little bit in the egg on me stuff because I'm just a nerd.
1:11:44
SPEAKER_01: But I told them, I'm like, you don't have to.
1:11:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, you just have to really know the gospel.
1:11:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, as long as you really know the gospel of Jesus Christ, you can preach to anybody, really.
1:11:55
SPEAKER_01: And that's what you want to be coming back to.
1:11:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's the whole point is to explain to them that you cannot be saved by being a part of this organization.
1:12:04
SPEAKER_01: You only are saved by grace through faith through Jesus.
1:12:08
SPEAKER_01: What's already been done for you, it is finished.
1:12:10
SPEAKER_01: And so I think um, when I get back, we're gonna do a week of like evangelism course in our Bible study group where I'm just gonna focus on like let's just all learn the gospel really well.
1:12:23
SPEAKER_01: Like in you know, five minutes, how could you explain the gospel?
1:12:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, because that's that's the whole point to everything.
1:12:30
SPEAKER_03: Amen.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_03: Amen.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_03: Wow, yeah, we have to remember that it's the gospel is Romans 1.16 tells us that is the power of God unto salvation.
1:12:38
SPEAKER_03: And Mark, I love that.
1:12:40
SPEAKER_03: I I'm sure it's gonna be a big takeaway for a lot of people listening because it's true, right?
1:12:44
SPEAKER_03: You have only so much time with them.
1:12:46
SPEAKER_03: And if if it's all front-loaded with debating them, and then they're like, we gotta go, they never got the gospel.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_03: But if you begin with probing them and then giving a natural segue for you to bring in the gospel, then talk about whatever afterward.
1:12:59
SPEAKER_03: But they got the gospel, and then you can keep coming back to it again and again and again.
1:13:03
SPEAKER_03: It's so good.
1:13:04
SPEAKER_03: Well, Talia, what a joy this has been.
1:13:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, a true delight.
1:13:08
SPEAKER_03: Again, I I got I just got emotional all over again.
1:13:11
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I got to get emotional when I watched the video and I got to do it live here with you.
1:13:15
SPEAKER_03: And it's because, again, it's a testimony to the power of God who's whose arm is not short that it cannot save.
1:13:23
SPEAKER_03: He's still moving, saving, touching.
1:13:25
SPEAKER_03: There are so many more stories like yours out there that are going to happen.
1:13:29
SPEAKER_03: And it's because we have Alex's out there being faithful to do very little with what they have, but that very little is very big.
1:13:38
SPEAKER_03: You said the conversation was short, he only shared two commandments and to ask you that question, but look at where you're at today.
1:13:44
SPEAKER_03: You're talking about going back and equipping women and preaching the gospel.
1:13:49
SPEAKER_03: And that's why it's been a delight because you're not just a testimony of someone that got saved.
1:13:53
SPEAKER_03: You were so touched by the gospel, you want to get it to others.
1:13:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:13:57
SPEAKER_03: And so praise God, he continued to work in and through your life.
1:14:01
SPEAKER_03: And I know we're gonna get a lot of response from this episode because you shared your story.
1:14:06
SPEAKER_03: I mean, you continue to do that.
1:14:07
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
1:14:08
SPEAKER_03: There you have it, friends.
1:14:09
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for joining us.
1:14:10
SPEAKER_03: We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast.