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Transcript

Left Behind Isn't Evenly Distributed · The Lagging Team

0:00
Apriel Biggs: That is our responsibility: is to catch the
0:03
first impact, so that you know. For us, it might feel like
0:07
somebody knocked the wind out of us, but for them, it might feel
0:11
like you know they they cut a corner too quickly, right? Like
0:14
they just brushed against something.
0:17
Devon Morris: This is the lagging team falling behind. Is
0:20
a position not a verdict. Today's episode is stop blaming the
0:27
team, diagnosing the real gap. Welcome, welcome, welcome, Big
0:34
Timer. Hey, Apriel, how are you today?
0:38
Apriel Biggs: I'm amazing. How are you? I'm so excited for this
0:40
conversation,
0:42
Devon Morris: man! I, you know, I, I feel, I feel good because I
0:47
actually have one of the dopest people on the planet sitting.
0:52
You're not sitting across me virtually. You're sitting across
0:55
from me. So this is what makes it amazing, and I've just been
0:59
looking forward to this kind of conversation. We have had
1:02
conversations offline several times, so I'm just like, let's
1:08
just see this greatness just come on out, y'all. She's
1:12
excited,
1:12
Apriel Biggs: but like we're gonna invite people into the
1:14
kind of dialog that we have, so it's gonna be amazing.
1:18
Devon Morris: Well, that being said, we we started. Look,
1:23
welcome y'all. Apriel is a technologist, a theologian, and
1:29
a transformation strategist wrapped up in one. She's driven
1:33
change inside of organizations with global teams and complex
1:39
modernizations, and she's led teams of 160 plus. Now she
1:45
coaches delivery leaders and their teams through changes no
1:49
framework can actually fix, which means the girl got skills.
1:54
She's a chief transformation architect at Blagile, and I asked
1:59
her to be here because I know she's dope. I know she can
2:04
answer questions that most people actually miss. So
2:08
hopefully I got that a little bit right about you. You
2:11
downplay yourself a little bit at times. So we're not gonna do
2:14
that here today because you are great. So here's the thing.
2:19
Here's what I keep coming back to, Apriel. When a team falls
2:25
behind, everybody doesn't fall the same distance. Can you tell
2:31
me about a time you watch the ground kind of move under a
2:36
team?
2:37
Apriel Biggs: I've had that happen so many times. One time
2:40
that I can tell you is we were in the middle of a huge
2:42
deployment. There were implications like out to the
2:46
street, so and it was around the holidays, and there were a
2:51
series of of announcements to Wall Street around things going
2:56
live for Thanksgiving, Christmas, and then the day
2:59
after New Year's, and before our first deployment, we realized
3:05
that our partner did not have their stuff together. And at the
3:10
time, you know, we were all together. This was pre-COVID,
3:13
and you could see like the color in people's faces like just
3:18
disappear once it was really clear that we were literally
3:23
like three weeks away, and it was one of those situations
3:27
where everyone is like, "I don't think that we're gonna make it,
3:33
and so then the room kind of turned and looked at me like,
3:36
"Apriel, what are we gonna do? And so to your point, I feel
3:40
like when the ground starts to steady or starts to become
3:45
unsteady, the person closest to leading the change is the first
3:49
person to feel the effect. And so, to that end, not falling at
3:54
the same rate largely depends on who the person is that's the
3:59
first to catch the blow, right? Because as a transformation
4:03
architect, as a project manager, you know, as a coach, you can do
4:08
several different things. Like if you, if someone pushes you,
4:11
and you are the one who bolsters the fall, then anyone behind you
4:16
is not gonna feel it the way that you felt the blow. And so,
4:20
oftentimes, when I think of us as being transformation, change
4:24
leaders, agileists, that is our responsibility is to catch the
4:29
first impact, so that you know, for us, it might feel like
4:33
somebody knocked the wind out of us, but for them, it might feel
4:36
like you know they they cut a corner too quickly, right? Like
4:40
they just brush against something.
4:42
Devon Morris: Yeah. Well, that that that's interesting because
4:44
you you said something that I I really like because you said you
4:49
caught you caught the stray first, right? And since you
4:52
caught the stray first, I'm curious as to in that example.
5:00
How did it feel for you day to day? Because there's something
5:05
unique about coaches where they kind of get that stray first,
5:09
and they're the ones that first kind of see it, and then start
5:12
to bring the rest of that to other people. Everybody don't
5:16
have that eyesight. Everybody's not listening. So I'm curious as
5:20
to what that looked like day to day for you in that environment,
5:26
Apriel Biggs: there's a couple of things that I think require
5:28
mentioning. And so, first, the idea of selecting a coach and
5:32
hiring a coach who has actually gone through some kind of
5:36
formalized training is important, right? And so, we're
5:40
in a season where everyone is calling them a coach, and that's
5:42
not to minimize anybody's experience. Because once you
5:45
have lived experience, sure, you can teach up and train folks up
5:49
on a thing. I think the difference about where you go to
5:53
get coaching is what comes with it, right? And so I spent a lot
5:57
of my time working with folks in the army, and one of the things
6:00
that I remember is that in combat, a soldier defaults to
6:05
their to their lowest level of training, and so coaches like
6:08
you and I are taught how to be emotionally strong, right? And
6:15
so we have tools that we can rely on in those moments, and so
6:19
for someone who has a large amount of responsibility but
6:23
does not necessarily know how to be emotionally strong can wreck
6:29
a team, right? Because they can pass, you know, again that blow
6:34
off, you know, to the rest of their team, and now no one knows
6:38
what to do. No one knows who to
6:40
Devon Morris: look to?
6:41
Apriel Biggs: So I think I think that bears naming, right? That
6:44
it's it's really important to make certain that for anyone who
6:47
has a team that or is looking for some kind of transformation
6:51
and who isn't, right? To select a coach or to select a lead who
6:56
can not only lead you through the change but is emotionally
6:59
sound and grounded enough, like in those moments where things
7:02
are gonna go crazy because they will.
7:06
Devon Morris: Yeah, I you you you brought that up and you said
7:09
something really interesting because you and I I'm right I'm
7:12
writing a couple notes right because training is absolutely
7:20
critical. You said that in the in the army and armed forces in
7:25
general, you default to the lowest level training. Well,
7:29
that would be true for a coach as well. They would default to
7:34
that, and a lot of times in many of these coaching programs,
7:38
you're gonna go through practice. You're gonna go
7:41
through when you're doing stuff, and that is a really interesting
7:45
statement because it's not just the people that are there doing
7:49
the work, but also the coach needs to make sure that they're
7:52
trained and they're just not calling themselves a coach just
7:55
for the sake of it. What are some of the differences you see
7:57
between people who have had that kind of training versus people
8:01
who have not.
8:04
Apriel Biggs: I think for me, the first piece is the quality
8:09
of questions that get asked. That gets asked, excuse me, is
8:12
completely different, right? And so, you know, trained coaches
8:18
are literally like months and weeks of looking at and asking a
8:23
more beautiful question. It's not about surface answers
8:27
anymore, right? It's about looking at patterns, not seeing
8:31
people as broken, not making wrong the mistakes or the issues
8:39
that are being unearthed, right? But it's more about this process
8:43
of uncovering and untethering that the coach is skilled in
8:47
being able to guide the the team, the organization, the
8:51
leadership through that really helps them get to the outcomes
8:55
that they want, and also uncovering what's in the way of
8:58
that.
8:59
Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah. So then I would ask you in that
9:03
example that you brought up, you mentioned patterns, right? When
9:08
did leadership finally notice some of them patterns, and and
9:12
beyond just you telling them, what tipped them off?
9:18
Apriel Biggs: I mean, it was it was me, right? And I think I
9:23
mean let's not make any mistakes about it, and because oftentimes
9:26
leaders are so disconnected from the day to day, right? Yeah,
9:29
yeah. And you know, I've seen leadership teams, and you too,
9:33
senior leadership teams, where they have a whole bunch of yes
9:36
folks around them who are keeping them from the real
9:39
struggle, strain, and strife that's happening in the
9:42
organization, and so unless somebody who's a worker bee has
9:48
an in with senior leadership and is able to really talk about
9:51
the issues that are happening, the impact that those issues are
9:55
having on the day to day, and ultimately the goal, then those
9:59
two things. Are very very you know far decoupled, and I think
10:03
right now we're seeing a lot happening with that middle
10:07
layer. And I really feel like the playbooks and the frameworks
10:12
that many professionals have been given just are
10:16
fundamentally incorrect, and we're seeing that now, right?
10:20
And I do not think a lot of senior leaders are really taking
10:23
the time to upskill that middle layer because they are literally
10:28
the conduit. Right, if we want to get technical, they are the
10:31
API between what you think you built and how it actually works.
10:35
And so, if that API connection is not working in real time,
10:40
there's going to be problems, and the only way that you see
10:43
those problems is ultimately what happens in a delivery, what
10:47
happens in a deployment, and why those things are not actually
10:50
getting traction.
10:51
Devon Morris: Yeah, I I agree with that, and I'm I'm I'm
10:55
thinking to myself about helping leaders to be able to notice
11:01
those patterns because they they're not the ones that's
11:04
coaching. They're probably not the ones that's been trained
11:06
like you and I have been trained. And so some of the
11:09
things that I've done is I've tried to train them up to it to
11:14
some degree. How does how does leadership take that advice from
11:19
you when they see these disasters going on, they see you
11:23
noticing them. Then, how do you help bring them forward? So, and
11:28
then they grow a little bit as we continue to move forward in
11:33
these directions. Because you know, for a lot of us, Apriel,
11:36
we're not there forever, right? And leaders aren't there forever
11:39
either. But we want to at least leave some grace there. How do
11:44
you bring a leader forward? Would be the question.
11:47
Apriel Biggs: I think the first part is always, you know, you
11:49
have to deal. You have to deal with the issue, right? Like you
11:51
get a cut, you got to deal. You got to deal with the bleeding
11:53
first, right? So we deal with the bleeding immediately. We go
11:56
get a band aid, and then we need to talk about how we got here,
11:59
right? Like proverbially to lead with a cutting thing. Did you
12:03
leave knives out? Like, do we have knife safety? You know. So,
12:07
do your teams actually understand the decisions that
12:10
they're making and the trade-offs that they're making
12:12
on a day-to-day basis? Right. How could you personally have
12:16
stopped this? What kinds of questions are you asking your
12:19
leadership? You have people on your team. You're responsible
12:22
for an organization. When was the last time you had a skip
12:24
level? What are you talking to them about? Do you care about
12:28
the things that they're unearthing, right? And so then
12:31
we need to talk about like who you are as a leader. What is
12:34
really your expectation? Does your expectation match your
12:37
actions? Do people believe that they can come to you with their
12:42
problems and trust that you're gonna do something about it,
12:45
right? So it's this, it's that conversation.
12:49
Devon Morris: Hey, bro, you got to do me a favor, right? Because
12:52
these folks that's in these conversations, you and me, we
12:55
know a lot of definitions and we know a lot of everything. The
12:59
audience may not be familiar with what a skip level is? Can
13:01
you tell me what a skip level is?
13:04
Apriel Biggs: Sure, absolutely. So a skip level is. Let's say
13:07
I'm a project manager. A skip level could mean just meeting
13:10
with one level above. So I skip a level. I'm not talking about
13:15
that. I'm. I want you to skip two levels. I want you to skip
13:18
three levels. And this is going to do so much. I have not met a
13:24
senior leader who was not willing to have a conversation
13:27
with someone who was deeper in their organization. So you know,
13:31
it's September. The end of the year is coming. Many
13:34
organizations work on performance evaluations on a
13:38
calendar year basis. This is a great time for you to do this.
13:42
Why? Because in 60 days, your leadership team is going to be
13:46
having conversations about compensation, about promotion,
13:50
about who's going to get exited, who's going to get placed on
13:52
PIP, a performance improvement plan, and so you do not want to
13:57
leave your career in somebody else's hands. And so I literally
14:01
just posted about this on LinkedIn. So having a skip level
14:04
is your opportunity to connect what you do with who it matters
14:10
for. So you could say I'm a project manager that's
14:12
delivering X project, and I notice that that's actually on
14:16
one of your target goals for the year. Here's how my work is
14:20
advancing your goals, right? And so you can have a conversation
14:24
with them, 15 minutes, you know, to just say what's really
14:27
important. Why is this project so important to you? Why is it
14:30
so important to the organization? If you could wave
14:32
a magic wand, what would you like me to solve for you? What
14:37
on a on a high on a high breaking fruit, a high reaching
14:40
fruit, and a low-reaching fruit, and then just say, "Hey, would
14:43
you be open to me having one of these conversations with you,
14:47
maybe once a quarter, or even me ccing you on my stakeholder
14:52
management communications, just so you can see the body of work
14:56
that we're delivering and begin to ask more questions."
15:00
Devon Morris: Yeah, I think that I I mean I'm gonna be agreeing
15:05
with you a lot because it's it's super important, right? Because
15:08
I I I have a colleague who has skip levels, and it's a status
15:14
meeting. It's not skip level, and and you're not really
15:18
talking about a skip level, and so I want to take that a little
15:24
bit deeper because I want to make sure people understand what
15:27
is the benefit of a skip level to the leader, and also pair
15:33
that with what the benefit is for the person that is skipping.
15:38
Can you kind of give a little bit of information about both
15:41
sides of that.
15:43
Apriel Biggs: Sure, having been a senior leader, senior leaders
15:48
want information that helps them make decisions about where
15:53
investment should go, about what should be stopped, about what
15:59
needs to be paused, about what we have not thought of, and
16:04
because they are not connected to the work, typically on a
16:08
team, the person who's doing the work has and has a problem has
16:13
likely also thought of the solution, and so now you
16:17
essentially get the chance to collapse time. You solve the
16:21
"Are we doing the right things? question for your senior leader.
16:26
You for yourself. You now catapult yourself in the eyes of
16:30
a senior leader who may not necessarily have known your name
16:34
to now begin to think about well. Since Apriel brought this
16:37
idea to me, I feel like she's the right person to now run this
16:42
new, you know, Skunk Works project, or to go lead this new
16:46
team because it was her idea, right? Additionally, for a lot
16:52
of teams who may have managers who are funky, right? Because
16:56
let's not next let's not believe that every single manager that
17:00
we have actually wants us to win, right? We have had managers
17:04
who have taken our ideas, represented them as their own.
17:07
Now this mitigates that, right? And so you now have a senior
17:13
leader who can weigh in on your performance plans because you're
17:17
having conversations about the work that they're delivering.
17:20
You now are see seeing them on the on the artifacts and the
17:24
outputs that you're delivering, and so now they have a chance to
17:28
see the quality and the caliber of work that you have. And so
17:32
the other thing that I do think is really important to name is
17:35
that for anyone who is on a team, and this is a part of
17:38
change as well, right? Anyone who's on a team who feels like
17:41
they're not getting the shine that they should from their
17:43
manager, senior leaders are not going to buck their people in
17:47
public, but in private, different conversations happen.
17:51
And so now, a senior leader who has data, firsthand data about
17:55
who you are, they've spoken to you, they have their ability to
17:58
make their own judgments, they've seen your work, now has
18:01
an additional data point to add in the conversations they're
18:05
having with your manager, and so now then the senior leader who
18:09
ultimately has to make the decision on compensation, on
18:13
pay, on promotion now can make their own judgment call about
18:18
what's really happening between the in the dynamic between you
18:21
and your manager,
18:23
Devon Morris: and I would say that for the places that I don't
18:28
see that broad that that vertical communication occurring
18:35
is where I see individuals truly get left behind, and so it
18:40
becomes one of those things where, if you are in a position
18:45
where you don't see that as a leader or even as a team member,
18:50
it's one of those things that maybe you want to experiment,
18:54
try to suggest that you do as an organization because you don't
18:58
because you end up being super unhappy, and then next thing you
19:02
know, there's going to be turnover issues and all kinds of
19:05
things happening. So I think that what you're saying is
19:08
absolutely critical to helping you keep yourself from drowning.
19:14
So then, as an individual that's on the ground doing the work, if
19:20
it doesn't exist in their organization, how would you
19:24
suggest they present that to the powers that be?
19:30
Apriel Biggs: So anyone who is a rule follower is probably going
19:34
to have a hard time with what I'm about to say. Yeah, and so
19:39
if it doesn't exist, go create it, and I don't believe in
19:42
asking for permission. Right? You ask for forgiveness after
19:46
the fact. Yeah. There's no senior leader that's gonna go
19:49
get close with all of the EAs, the executive assistants, the
19:53
secretaries of the senior leaders. Let me tell you
19:56
something: you get close to those people, you will always.
20:00
Get close to the senior leader because those folks will make
20:02
certain that any time you need 10 minutes, that you will get
20:06
it. They will look on their calendar and you'll-they'll just
20:08
slide you in. Such and such has a spot on their calendar for 10
20:11
minutes, or they're going to be walking to this particular
20:14
meeting. If you go hang out at this door, you'll-you'll catch
20:17
them on the way in, or leave me a sticky note for those who are
20:22
still in office, and I'll make certain that such and such gets
20:25
it. And so, go ahead and schedule the meeting and say,
20:27
"Hey, I am a project manager in your organization working on X Y
20:32
Z project. I would love to learn why this is important. Do not
20:36
make it selfish and make it all about you. You are making it
20:40
About the stakeholder,
20:42
Devon Morris: why
20:42
Apriel Biggs: is this important to you? How do projects actually
20:45
get prioritized and unearthed? How much should we be spending
20:49
on this? How much time should be we be taking? So you want to get
20:53
in their mind. You want to understand what they think about
20:56
and what's important, and then you want to have in your back
21:01
pocket two to three ways or two to three skills that you know
21:05
that you are advancing. So this takes a little bit of super
21:08
sleuthing, right? Have a conversation with the EA first.
21:12
Get 30 minutes on the EA's calendar. People forget about
21:15
them, and they see everything. EAs are reading emails. They say
21:21
who people are meeting with. They, the EAs are in the
21:25
details, and so this is your opportunity to go create a
21:30
process that may not necessarily be in place.
21:35
Devon Morris: That's that's an amazing nugget, right? I mean,
21:37
that's super amazing. But here's a question, right? Okay. When
21:43
that doesn't, when individuals don't take that risk, okay, what
21:51
is the downstream impact on the overall team's performance when
21:55
that is not happening from individuals taking that risk?
22:02
Apriel Biggs: You leave so individually, you leave your
22:04
career to chance. But bigger than that, on a team
22:06
perspective, the team could be potentially left out of the dark
22:09
of what really is important and working on bodies of work that
22:12
they think are important that are actually not important to
22:14
the organization. Teams become disenfranchised; they become
22:23
absent. They are looking for new roles, and you see, you know,
22:27
them quietly quitting. Or best performers, you know, are
22:33
exiting the organization, or just suddenly they've just
22:36
started doing just enough in order to get their paycheck,
22:39
right? Because they don't believe that their body of work
22:42
matters, and so as leaders and as leaders, as agileists, as
22:45
team leaders, it is our responsibility to make certain
22:48
that people come to work every single day ready to do their
22:52
best work because they feel like them being in a place matters.
22:56
Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So then, then, then, how
22:59
do you, as a coach, help to position the team and the
23:05
individuals on that team to do more of that.
23:11
Apriel Biggs: For me, it's about having conversations, right?
23:13
Like I, I like to get to know people. You know, I want to
23:17
understand how you got this job. I want to understand what makes
23:20
you show up every day or not? You know what I mean. Like I
23:24
want to know if you are looking. I once had an associate director
23:28
who told you, asked me flat out. She said, "Hey, I have a
23:31
question for you. She said, "Would you be a reference for me
23:36
on my new job? And I paused for a second and I said, "I don't
23:41
know if I should be flattered or if I should be upset, right?
23:45
Because here you are, someone who works for you, saying like,
23:49
"Hey, I just want to let you know I want to quit, right? And
23:52
I said, "Well, can we talk about can we talk about this a little
23:55
bit? And so it was really odd, but ultimately I felt like it
24:01
was, you know, I was flattered about it. Yeah. But her
24:04
rationale was like, "Hey, I've been in this organization for a
24:07
long time, and I don't believe I'm ever going to get promoted
24:10
here, so I'm leaving. And to your point, this this is the the
24:15
underpinnings of of what this lack of process has.
24:21
Devon Morris: Yeah, that that I would have I would have taken. I
24:23
would have done the same thing that you did. I'd have been
24:25
super surprised. Like, well, they just told me they leaving.
24:29
Let me put. I gotta replace them. I gotta start thinking
24:31
about all this up. But let me be here right now and actively
24:35
listen and hear this person. Right, that could be really hard
24:38
to do. Oh boy, I really like that. So then, when a team is in
24:45
that position, Apriel, they're they're stuck. They are. It's
24:50
hard for them to recover. You see attrition really happening.
24:56
What are some of the things that we should do? That a leader
25:01
should do to help that team recover.
25:07
Apriel Biggs: I don't necessarily know if recovery is
25:09
always the goal. Okay, like is it? I don't know. I think I
25:15
think there's an evaluation that needs to happen first. Okay,
25:18
right. So if if a team has fallen, they've buckled.
25:23
Devon Morris: Yeah,
25:23
Apriel Biggs: and after we've addressed the emergent
25:26
situation, we now need to have a conversation with: Is the thing
25:31
that we have been working toward the right thing, right? So, so I
25:36
think that is, and I guess maybe you could say that that's a
25:38
regroup. I think there's an evaluation that happened that
25:41
has to happen first, and once everyone is able to evaluate,
25:45
we're we're all walking in the same direction. We're not, you
25:48
know. There's a start, stop, shift, save conversation that
25:52
has to happen, and that's why I say I don't know. I don't know
25:54
if the regroup is the right thing. Well,
25:57
Devon Morris: let's go down that note for a second, right?
25:59
Because there are multiple directions that you can go in,
26:01
right? And correct. Let's just say you do the evaluation, and
26:08
you want to turn things around, and that's the direction that we
26:12
kind of agree to move forward in. Is there an example that you
26:16
have of that being the answer that we're going to turn things
26:21
around. What did you find on day one as you started to do that
26:27
turnaround?
26:30
Apriel Biggs: There's a there's usually some kind of disconnect,
26:33
right? And so this is why I had used the managers as as middle
26:37
management as API, right? There's usually some kind of
26:39
disconnect between the the strategy and the work, like
26:44
always. Yeah. And so people who think that the work should go
26:47
away and the way the work actually goes are usually
26:50
different. I started my career in aerospace manufacturing, and
26:54
funny but true, I worked with my dad, and I remember my father
26:58
saying to me, he worked on the manufacturing floor, and he
27:02
called me on my desk phone, and he said, "Come down here. I want
27:06
to show you something. So I go down, and he says, "I don't want
27:09
you to be one of those engineers who builds things and thinks
27:12
that just because that's the way you build it is the way that it
27:15
works, right? And so he showed me an engineering drawing, but
27:19
then he then showed me like the aircraft because we could see
27:22
them, and he says, "Do you see here that the holes are on the
27:25
left hand side, but when we built them, they are on the
27:29
right. And so he said that all there's usually a disconnect
27:34
between what you think and how it should go on paper and what
27:37
happens in real life. And so, to that end, having spent some time
27:42
in lean manufacturing, there's three principles that I live by,
27:45
and they have never ever failed me.
27:46
Devon Morris: The
27:47
Apriel Biggs: first is always to go see. You need to go see the
27:51
work happening with your own eyes, right? The second is
27:55
always to show respect. You need to show respect for the people
27:59
who have done the work and the work that has happened before
28:02
you got there. And the third is always to ask questions. Well,
28:08
how did we end up with a drawing that has them on the left and a
28:11
fabrication that has them on the right? Where in the process did
28:15
that happen? Is it that the engineering drawings are
28:18
inverted, right, and we need to we're missing a direction, or is
28:22
it that you know the welders are taking liberties that we? I
28:25
don't know, right? But I think asking better questions leads to
28:29
better solutions.
28:31
Devon Morris: So, so then, these things have never failed you,
28:36
okay? But I know that you have seen these things and
28:40
implemented these things, and ultimately it didn't work out.
28:44
What are some reasons why it didn't work out? They had
28:49
nothing to do with the principles, right? Because the
28:51
principles are what they are, and they are proven, no question
28:53
about that. But why it didn't work out? What are some of the
28:56
things that you say?
28:58
Apriel Biggs: I think sometimes we make transformation and
29:00
change hard, right? You know, as people, have you ever gone to to
29:04
to get a suit, and you had in your mind that you were like,
29:08
"I'm gonna get this suit, and it's gonna be best.
29:10
Devon Morris: Yeah, put
29:10
Apriel Biggs: it on, perfect. You go to the place that has the
29:13
suit that you want, and you get it on, and you look crazy.
29:17
Sometimes it's just not the right fit, right? Like it could
29:21
be too long. The nips and the tucks were in the right place,
29:26
so it just at the point in which you were in your journey on the
29:30
day when you went to go buy that suit, it wasn't the right fit.
29:33
The same thing happens with change and transformation. That
29:36
sometimes the thing that we are so exercised about, we think
29:40
that this is going to be the best decision for the
29:42
organization, and it's like womp womp. It's not, you know. We're
29:47
just not. We're not where we should be in our journey. This
29:50
just doesn't match who we are as people. Like, it's just not
29:54
going to work.
29:55
Devon Morris: But Apriel, I'm I'm the guy that will buy that
29:59
wrong. Suit and go wear that wrong suit. So then, when I wear
30:04
that wrong suit, the result just doesn't look the same,
30:09
Apriel Biggs: right? And you know, deep in your heart, you
30:11
know, you know that, like, you know that the suit is not right
30:16
because now you're spending the day hiking, hiking up the pants.
30:19
You know, Apriel, I don't. I don't know that. I'm
30:21
Devon Morris: excited about that.
30:24
Apriel Biggs: Yeah, yeah. I mean, hey, some people do. Some
30:27
people do, right? And that, that, hey, and that's why I say
30:30
it all comes back to who you are as a person. Me, I'm only buying
30:33
what I love, and if I don't feel like a stunner the first time I
30:37
put it on, I'm not buying it. Or I have a rule. I have a two-week
30:41
rule that if I buy something and I haven't worn it in two weeks,
30:44
chances are I'm not. I'm not going to buy it, and so I'm
30:46
taking it back, right? Like, so I think it all comes down to who
30:51
you are and what makes sense for you.
30:55
Devon Morris: And and I guess it hearkens back to a really simple
30:58
thing that feedback loop, right? Because you know, it's one of
31:01
those things for me. I create a feedback loop where, when I put
31:04
that suit on, I have somebody like a wife or something that's
31:08
gonna say, "I like it, I hate it. So I put in a feedback loop.
31:12
So then it's just not my judgment by itself. I got an and
31:17
somewhat objective party out there helping me. And the good
31:21
thing about being a coach is that we're allowed in many cases
31:24
to be as an objective party as we can be. Hence the reason
31:28
somebody can say, "Be my reference. I'm leaving, but be
31:32
my reference because I still got to do this work now. Right?
31:36
You've shown that time and time again, so I love that answer.
31:39
And the example that you used is perfect. I wish that I could get
31:44
the many ladies that have existed in my life over time to
31:49
take something back that they bought and they didn't wear
31:52
within two weeks. I wish I could do that. It
31:59
Apriel Biggs: just has not. They must have really loved it, and
32:01
they were saving it for a special occasion. Listen, I'm
32:03
always gonna take up for them, so
32:05
Devon Morris: I would. You probably are, but I'm just like,
32:08
man, if I could get, because you know, I probably be a little, I
32:11
probably be rich at this point if that was the case, right? No,
32:13
Apriel Biggs: I mean, hey, listen, look, no crying over
32:15
spilt milk. The money is spent, you know, milk.
32:21
Devon Morris: Now she is she is gonna support their nonsense
32:24
right here on camera. You see this, y'all. I'm trying to be
32:26
sensible, right? So then here's here's here's a getting back to
32:30
it, right? Um, so let's talk about turn it around, right?
32:35
What leaders should do, right? If a leader knows a team is
32:39
behind, what is one of the first things that they should look at?
32:47
Apriel Biggs: I think there needs to be a real conversation
32:49
around how did we get here, right? Without blame, because
32:54
that's the hard part in corporate, right? Like everyone
32:57
wants to blame each other, and so at the point in which things
33:01
have gone wrong? There is multiple people complicit,
33:04
including you, right? There are multiple people complicit, and
33:11
so I think the first thing is is how did we get here, right?
33:15
Because now we need to do a little bit of root cause
33:17
analysis, and so that literally means like getting to the
33:20
underpinning and the nubbin of the thing, right? So there needs
33:24
to be some kind of root cause analysis. You know, how do we
33:27
end up here? You might want to ask five whys. That's another.
33:30
That's another tool, right? You ask why until you feel like
33:32
you've gotten to the bottom of a thing. So ultimately, for that
33:36
situation where we were close to launch and it was three weeks,
33:39
right? The other team had told us that they were doing all of
33:43
the work. We did not. We weren't at a place to look at the
33:47
integrations until we got to that point. So essentially, and
33:51
we also weren't asking like, show us the code. You know what
33:54
I mean? Like, show us where you where you are. So those are two
33:58
things that I think had come to it. So, getting to the root root
34:02
cause, asking how did we get here. The next, I think, is
34:06
asking the question about so where do we go now, right? And
34:10
so, on that same project, the question is, well, are we
34:14
changing our commitment to the street? Are we tanking this
34:16
project? Are we asking for an extension? And the answer to all
34:20
of those questions was no, right? So then, once you're able
34:23
to check off a series of questions, then the solution
34:27
become it almost illuminates itself, right? So I think for
34:31
senior leaders, it is really I'm gonna go back to the emotions to
34:36
get out of the emotional. I can't believe this. How do you
34:39
know? I can't believe you let this happen. All of those
34:42
things, and now let's get to the part of solutioning and asking
34:45
questions.
34:47
Devon Morris: There and there's a you can see the difference
34:53
between a leader that realizes that they're complicit in this
34:59
versus. Versus ones who act like they they they are not. Can you
35:06
tell me some of the differences that you see between those two
35:11
type of leaders? And again, this is not one of those things where
35:14
I'm talking about you got certain certifications or
35:16
anything like that, right? But just the I'm I know I'm
35:21
complicit versus the ones that don't. What are some of those
35:24
differences?
35:25
Apriel Biggs: I think the first thing to name is that the
35:26
leadership playbook has changed, and anyone who's thinking that
35:31
you know you're managing by objectives, I'm concerned. I
35:37
think that leaders who are in the trenches with their teams
35:43
are very much inquisitive. You know, they are very much like
35:49
tell me about how you got here, almost like a show your work
35:52
kind of way, right? Like, tell me what steps you took to to get
35:56
to this solution. Tell me where you elevated this and didn't get
36:03
what you needed, right? Tell me about where you flagged this and
36:10
we missed it, right? And so it's more about a leader who's seeing
36:15
the failure of the team as their own versus the responsibility of
36:20
the team for leaders who I think are I'm going to say blaming the
36:26
team, they see it as the team's responsibility without
36:29
recognizing that on a daily basis teams are making decision
36:35
micro decisions about the organization's strategy.
36:39
Devon Morris: You talked about a few things that are throughlines
36:42
here, and one thing you brought up was management by objective.
36:47
What are some things you believe that leaders should stop doing
36:52
immediately?
36:56
Apriel Biggs: Trust trusting the data that that they're they're
36:59
being told. I think that senior leaders need to go get their own
37:03
data, right? That's one of the things I feel like as as
37:05
technologists, as scientists, that we approve, that we have
37:09
come to to rest on. Like I have a saying, like in God I trust
37:13
everybody else, bring data. I want to go see myself. This is
37:17
why I said to you, those three things have never failed me, and
37:19
I was sitting in reviews with that person, and my synopsis was
37:24
markedly different than what they were being told. And I said
37:29
to them that I think that you should just pop in on a review,
37:35
and then begin to gather your own data and see. I think senior
37:39
leaders need their own data because once you have access to
37:43
the data, you ask better questions because then you can
37:48
begin to understand what the data is telling you and what
37:52
different points are popping off the page as you are looking at
37:55
the data versus you taking someone else's interpretation of
37:59
the data, right? Because then it's like you know making your
38:05
own smoothie versus drinking the smoothie that that you buy. You
38:09
get a chance to control what the ingredients are if you know that
38:12
your hands are in it. Now, then the next question then becomes:
38:15
Well, Apriel, I'm a senior leader. I shouldn't have to be
38:18
going to dig into the details, and isn't this why I have middle
38:23
management? And isn't this why you know I have leaders in my
38:26
organization? I'm not suggesting that you go and do the work of
38:30
these people. What I'm saying is, you have a conversation with
38:34
the people who are closest to the work, particularly in the
38:38
places where work is not getting done where there are
38:41
bottlenecks, where there are obstacles, where there are
38:43
problems, and I'm saying to you to begin to have a conversation
38:48
with the people whose hands are in the dirt about what really
38:52
going on, and to have a conversation and spend 30
38:56
minutes, 30 minutes looking at the data. You as a senior leader
39:00
will begin to make different abstractions about what things
39:04
look like and what's going on once you are having
39:08
conversations with people whose hands are in the dirt.
39:11
Devon Morris: You know, one of the things that you you you have
39:17
a certain experience that the vast majority of technologists
39:23
don't have, and that is the lean manufacturing experience.
39:29
Apriel Biggs: A
39:30
Devon Morris: lot of things that you say come out of that
39:34
playbook, like directly out of that playbook. Would you
39:42
recommend that leaders go into those type of environments to
39:50
get some of those lessons? I'm assuming your answer is yes, but
39:55
Apriel Biggs: it's not. How?
39:56
Devon Morris: It's not okay. Well, well, tell me why not.
40:01
Apriel Biggs: I think once you've gotten to a certain place
40:03
in your career, I'm not necessarily saying that just
40:08
going off into a tangent for tangent's sake. I don't
40:11
necessarily believe is beneficial, right? This goes
40:13
back to the suit. Just because you like the suit and it doesn't
40:16
fit, I don't think that you should buy it. I think that you
40:19
should go find another suit that you like and that fits, and then
40:22
you should buy those two things. I do think there is a world
40:25
where senior leaders can begin to borrow the experiences of
40:29
people in their organization who have had those experiences. So,
40:33
to that end, Lean Six Sigma for me has taught me process, right?
40:39
And there are first first principles, right? Like you
40:42
know, we teach is the alphabet, and then we begin to teach them
40:46
phonics, and we begin to teach vowel placements because we are
40:49
building building blocks. And so, I think if you can begin to
40:52
understand and begin to become a process thinker, then I think
40:56
that that will illumine your mind to asking, like I said,
41:00
different questions. I feel like that's the through through line.
41:01
If I had a through line for for change and how to make certain
41:05
that as a as a leader, as a change leader, as a
41:07
transformation leader, as delivery leader, that you're
41:09
making certain that your teams are not falling behind, it is
41:14
certain that you can begin to coach yourself up to ask better
41:17
questions. Because if you begin to understand that at some point
41:22
leaders in a room got together and said these 10 principles are
41:25
the things are our north star for the year, and then we went
41:28
and we disseminated them out into an organization of 500
41:31
people at every single letter, or excuse me, every single
41:35
level. That telephone game is going to get long. It's going to
41:39
get longer. It's going to get distorted. It's going to become
41:42
misunderstood. So then, you as the person who set those goals,
41:46
it is your responsibility to to manage the telephone line all
41:49
the way down to the to the deepest part of the organization
41:53
to make certain the the the goals, the objectives that you
41:57
have set are understood. And I know we did this as a senior
42:01
leadership team, which is why I'm so passionate about it. And
42:05
so we came up with a set of objectives, and then we didn't
42:09
go to our next level of leadership. We went to the
42:12
managerial level of leadership and asked them to present it to
42:16
the organization because that is the line that is responsible for
42:21
delivery, and so we knew that if our managers could understand
42:25
it, then that also increased the likelihood that the deepest
42:29
parts of the organization could understand it.
42:33
Devon Morris: Yeah, no, I that you you just gave a beyond
42:37
amazing answer because when you when you have experience in that
42:41
lean world it brings a lot of great things to you, but as
42:46
leadership, you got access to team members that probably have
42:51
some of that experience, and you can actually borrow it. You you
42:55
literally said you don't have to know everything, and some
42:59
leaders think they need to know everything or nothing, and
43:04
that's a big dichotomy. And so, when you say that, that
43:08
borrowing note, I think, is one of the biggest nuggets that
43:13
people can take away from that. So, how do you, how do you get
43:20
that thought into their heads that they don't have to know
43:24
every single thing in order to be really effective in borrowing
43:29
from the people that exist within their organization.
43:32
Apriel Biggs: I think that's what we talked about a little
43:34
bit earlier, right? That as we're seeing, we we're seeing in
43:38
2026 a different kind of leader emerge, right? We're seeing
43:42
younger senior leaders. We're seeing more female senior
43:45
leaders, and they are from varied experiences. Right, we're
43:49
seeing more female CIOs, more CIDs, more female CTOs, and more
43:56
female CEOs. Right, and so to that end, I think that that the
44:02
old school of leadership is shifting now in a lot of places
44:05
and a lot of industries. You know that change hasn't really
44:08
taken fold, right? But I do think that you see a lot more
44:12
leaders who are seriously like come come have a conversation
44:16
with me. Come let's really talk the work, right? Like I know
44:20
back when we were in the office, that I I worked with a CIO who
44:25
would frequently just stop by people's desks and say, "Hey,
44:28
want to have coffee or want to have lunch? And people would
44:31
freak out, right? And so he'd be like, "Look, I just want to talk
44:35
to you about what's going on and how you like things, right? And
44:39
so he would tell people that, and he he would give people an
44:42
out and say, "Hey, if if I make you too nervous, like we don't
44:45
have to do it. But you know,
44:47
Devon Morris: yeah,
44:48
Apriel Biggs: people loved it, right? Because it was like, oh
44:50
my gosh! Like the person who's running the organization
44:54
actually cares about my work, and he also got incredible ideas
44:57
from the people who had their hands in the dirt about what.
45:00
Was really broken, right? And so, was one of those
45:03
conversations that illuminated for him that one of the goals
45:06
that he had was crazy because we still had network closets that
45:09
looked like the day after Mardi Gras, and so he had no idea. And
45:14
then he took that person with him to go see the network closet
45:18
that he looked at, and he came back furious because the leader
45:22
who was responsible for the project related to the network
45:26
closets did not know. Right, so this is saying to you: the go
45:31
see it all comes back because if you knew that your
45:37
infrastructure team was supposed to be doing a rip and replace of
45:43
infrastructure in a particular closet, but nobody knew which
45:46
wires went where because it looked like the day after Mardi
45:50
Gras. Then you probably would have prioritized something else,
45:53
right?
45:54
Devon Morris: Yeah, yeah. So then, then the question is, when
45:57
when when leaders start to see messes like that, right? How do
46:04
they believe in themselves that they can help get this thing
46:09
back on track?
46:14
Apriel Biggs: That's an interesting question. Yeah, I
46:19
think that internal belief about being able to deliver a thing
46:25
really. Now, this is gonna like I'm gonna get into my theology
46:29
and coaching a little bit. Please do, please do. You
46:32
believe that you are, and what you believe that you're capable
46:36
of, right? And so that comes down to the internal compass
46:42
about well who am I you know who am I to do this body of work who
46:47
am I to fix this solution that's or fix this that's broken even
46:52
though I didn't make the mess and you know this is something
46:57
that I don't feel like we talk enough about that there are some
47:00
challenges that we get at working in life, right? Because
47:02
I do think that the two are are mirrors of each other, that we
47:06
just don't believe that we can surmount, and then we tell
47:10
ourselves that I'm not the person, I'm not good enough.
47:12
This is not the reason why, or this is the reason why I didn't
47:15
get promoted, right? Is because we have a belief about ourselves
47:18
that is less than, and we have countless, countless examples of
47:24
people who believed in themselves, and are in places
47:28
where we're like, "Oh my gosh, I cannot believe that this
47:31
happened. And so, think that the first piece is for someone to
47:35
begin to interrogate what do they believe is possible for
47:38
them.
47:39
Devon Morris: I think that is an amazing, amazing answer because
47:43
there's one thing when it's a team member looking at a CIO and
47:47
just don't believe we need to have a conversation. There's
47:50
another thing about what you believe internally that has an
47:53
impact on everybody. So I'm going to ask you a final
47:56
question here because this has been amazing and I think we're
47:59
going to do this again for sure. What would you tell a leader
48:02
whose team is behind right now and knows it?
48:09
Apriel Biggs: Bad news doesn't get better with time, right? So,
48:13
I am a fan of a white sheet of paper. Have been and will be
48:16
until glory carries me home. And so, on a white sheet of paper.
48:21
You just need there's there's an exercise that is the 2% truth,
48:27
right? Free game. I'm giving y'all. Yeah. Clean sheet of
48:30
paper. Do the 2% truth. I want you to just list out all the
48:33
things that have gone wrong, that are wrong, that have you
48:35
know that could go wrong. I just want you to get them out of your
48:38
brain. Yeah. Because sometimes that mulling it over and
48:41
carrying it, you know, begins to affect you and affect your
48:46
counting, affect your judgment, affect your ability to see. So
48:49
then, I want you to take one minute to do all of that and
48:51
write as fast as you can. Literally, set a timer. Go walk
48:54
away. Go get a glass of water. Stand outside. Go get some sun
48:57
on your face for a minute. Come back. Set another minute timer,
49:01
and then I want you to then go back and circle the things that
49:06
are actually true about the problem. You know, our team
49:10
didn't deliver. You know, might be one of them. We didn't really
49:14
understand the deliverables. So go through and circle all the
49:17
things that are actually true that like can be proven by data.
49:21
We missed the milestone. We didn't have enough resources.
49:24
Our resources weren't trained. Whatever. Take another minute.
49:28
Walk away. Come back. On the last one, I want you to circle
49:33
two, no more than three, of things that you are committed to
49:36
do something about, and then with the two or three that you
49:40
have committed to do something about you. Then go and make your
49:43
plan on that, and you save that piece of paper for once. Those
49:46
two things are done. Then you can come back and you can
49:49
prioritize the other things that you've circled and have
49:52
conversations from that place.
49:55
Devon Morris: That's an amazing note to close on. I'm gonna ask
49:59
you. At this point, right, because people are going to want
50:03
to reach out to you. Where should people find you and tell
50:07
us about what's coming up for you?
50:11
Apriel Biggs: I have a whole bunch of things coming up that I
50:13
just can't talk about yet, but they're not public yet. So the
50:19
one thing that I will say is connect on LinkedIn. I love
50:23
community, so connect on LinkedIn. Tell me, send me an
50:27
inbox or an inmail, and let me know that you heard this
50:31
podcast. And let's connect. The other thing that I would say is
50:34
I'm Apriel Biggs on all socials, so come follow me and see all
50:38
the great things that I'm talking about. And if you have
50:39
any other suggestions, let me know.
50:42
Devon Morris: You know what? This is amazing. I, I, there,
50:46
there are so many nuggets in this conversation that you guys
50:53
are going to play this conversation back over and over
50:55
again. You're going to ask me to bring it back in, and I'm just
50:58
going to have to. So hopefully, you are reserving a spot to come
51:02
back here, Apriel, because if you don't, I'm just going to ignore
51:06
you for the rest of life, just so you understand and know. No,
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but I really, really appreciate you. I mean, claps, right? I got
51:14
to tip my hat to you because this was amazing, and you know I
51:19
appreciate you, right?
51:21
Apriel Biggs: I appreciate you. I'm so glad to have been here. I
51:23
really hope it's helpful. And please let me know how this
51:26
helped you and what part of the podcast helped you.
51:29
Devon Morris: I love it. So on that note, we will see y'all
51:31
next time. Everybody, have a good one. Bye. Thank you for
51:38
joining us. Where every Tuesday and Thursday, we work toward
51:43
bridging the gap for teams that are
51:56
Devon Morris: behind.