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The Future of Vet Med with Ben Jacklin · Under The Fur

• Vanessa: Hi, welcome to this week's edition of Under the Fur, where we talk about all things veterinary. And I'm really, really excited today to have Mr. Ben Jacqueline with us, who is currently the CEO of Medivet UK. But we've got a big history before that. And I want to know how you went from equine vet to pen pushing. ⁓ Ben: Yeah, plenty of other people asking that question. ⁓ Vanessa: Can you tell me what happened between 2008 and now? Ben: 2008, so 2008, a fine crop, as you know, we qualified. I was set on a career in equine surgery and I went straight down that path. Did a residency, went abroad, did all that good stuff, loved it. And 2015, I guess at the time that the whole corporatization thing was really peaking, I was sat back in Newmarket post residency, post diploma, doing some surgery and ⁓ I kind of guess I got to a point where I thought this is where I've always wanted to get to like my whole career. This is the very job I wanted to be in amazing and thought, ⁓ shit, I don't know whether I'm be here forever. This is, I kind of reached the destination and thought, I don't exactly. Well, I'll just go deep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it didn't get dirty. ⁓ So, and it just happened at the time when one of the corporates, CVS at the time was, had started Vanessa: you sort of elbows deep in a horse at that point? Ben: to buy equine practices. That was the new thing in town because I guess everyone had bought most of the small animal practices. So we're to buy equine now and they were cheaper or whatever. And so I got asked sort of at the right time, will you go and run a practice in North Yorkshire? And as you know, and as is so evident from my accent, I am from North Yorkshire. And I thought, you know what, this is the time to move home. And so I went, moved back to North Yorkshire to run a hospital and did that and just sort of accidentally got involved with the whole equine thing there. And we bought a bunch of equine practices. I had no idea what I was doing for sure. Not sure we knew what we were doing. But it got me to work with a whole bunch of people I had massive admiration for in all some equine practices that we bought and we worked together. And there was some really cool stuff. And so I got sort of unexpectedly passionate about the idea that maybe groups of practices, there's something in that. I guess initially from a clinical perspective, because I thought, wow. actually, even having come from the biggest equine hospital in Europe, where I thought this is the end of this is as good as it goes. And certainly clinically, it was incredible. Actually, if we work together as collectives and shared data and experience, maybe it could be better. So I guess I kind of started clinically, but actually very quickly got into, but how do you run businesses from a people standpoint? Because as you know, in small island, well, you've always had it easy with the out of hours. Whereas us in equine, ⁓ you know, we didn't have that. So there was no I guess the observation I made quite early was there was an obvious reason for a business to own a bunch of small animal practices. You had a load of product that you were buying that you could get a load of benefits on the buying power and you could get practices to work together collectively. You could consolidate the out of hours. It kind of made a lot of sense. My observation in equine in the early days was I wasn't clear what the advantage was on owning a bunch of equine practice. What was going to get better for the vet in the clinic? Vanessa: But do you not have similarities like the product buying and... Ben: There's some of that, but a smaller component of its product. So there's a little bit, but also the margins in equine products were lower because people were already competing with merchants. were closer to farm animal than you were to companion animal. So you didn't get the same uplift and benefit of the lot. And you didn't consolidate the out of hours because at the time at least the view was you can't do that. I guess you, cause it was based out, no one had really got to the point of thinking there's a model where you could do out of hours more than just. Vanessa: because they're more spaced. Ben: I mean, one extreme would be the new market stud vet that's on call for their clients every night. Most practices have gone to we're on a rotor for our clients. The idea of getting to as a network of practices who are doing out of hours together felt like a pipe dream. So it was, I guess the journey I went on there with Equine was how do we create a world where it feels better to be part of this? And I'm not sure I necessarily could claim we got there, but it took me down a path of how would you run a great business for people and learn from other professions that have done this by consolidating. So I kind of got very into that with the equine. And as anyone, I think at the time would appreciate CVS is reputation then wasn't brilliant for being an employer for being somewhere to go and work as a vet young or old. No, I think it's fair. think, think, I think CVS will be the first to say it themselves now. So it, I then got asked, well, look, the people stuff seems to be working quite well in small animal surprise equine. Vanessa: I wasn't going to mention it. Ben: ⁓ Will you come and do small animal? And as you know, I know absolutely nothing about small animal. Vanessa: I was wondering where the jump happened Ben: It was at that point, equine had gone well, unexpectedly well, is everything. And so that was a business unit in CVS that was performing and companion was really challenged. so the, chief executive at the time, Simon, and it's a guy that many people in the profession will know somewhat divisive character, but someone I learned masses from and had huge amounts of respect for. He said, no, no, no, come on, run, because maybe this is what we need to do in companion animal. So I knew nothing other than that it's a people business. if you, the same core belief that motivates me today, motivated me then, which was if you create an environment where vets and nurses and non-clinical colleagues come to work feeling motivated, because we're all, we're really lucky, right? We're in a profession where everyone's actually really motivated to treat the pet. You never have to work to, ⁓ wouldn't it be great if our vets and our nurses wanted to do Vanessa: the right thing. really want to do it to do this job. Exactly. So it makes sense. Ben: We get out for free. Our colleagues are amazingly motivated there. But what would it feel like if you created a business where people were coming to work for themselves, feeling really motivated about being there? For me, that doesn't matter whether you're in companion animal, whether you're in equine, whether you're a lawyer, whether you're a dentist, doesn't matter. For me, that's the same. believe that a people business fundamentally has got to perform better if people are in that space. Now it helped that at the time retention rates in CVS were crippling the business. We're losing vets hand over fist. Motivation therefore was not necessarily down because everybody was battling the rotor and then leaving themselves. So there was a clear commercial link to how Vanessa: work-life balance issue. Ben: Was it a work-life balance issue? There was definitely elements of that. definitely, as you lose, it's like in any veterinary practice, isn't it? If you're a four vet or five vet, 10 vet practice, the minute you lose that first person, everybody's rotor gets a bit tighter and so on. We're all doing an extra Saturday. And then suddenly the next person goes, hang on, I don't much like doing a one in seven versus a one in eight or a one in three versus a one in four. And it's a spiral. So you definitely run into that, don't you? The work-life balance challenge. But I think it's more than that. I think it's about people turning up feeling the thing I love about veterinary practice, whether it's equine or anything else. I, I've, guess my experience in actually being a companion on in practice is basically EMS. But the thing I loved about it was there is a real fun team sense in the, in the right practice, isn't that you'll, I'm sure have this in your practice where yeah, there's a lot of fun. There's a lot of fun. And my observation at the time was that you'd walk into a bunch of these practices that didn't have that sense of fun. Vanessa: pants. Ben: and adventure and we're going to do the right thing for our patients and do an amazing heroic work and have a lot of fun doing it. And I think that was a bit lost in some of those practices. So it was about getting that back as much as it was about, about work life balance. Cause I don't think, and you'd have to ask it, you'd have to survey any CVS vet that was there for 10 years from 2015. Did I work a bunch less hours over the course of that time? Fewer hours or haven't, you know, I don't think they say yes. I think they, a proportion would say nothing changed. It's all hot air. proportion would hopefully say, no, actually it felt like we were coming to work to do amazing clinical work. It felt like we were coming to work to make sure our colleagues were enjoying as much as we were. And the commercial performance that came out of the back of it was just an outcome measure. Cause I think that's the switch that I observed needed to happen, which is I think the thing, one of the things that the groups got wrong in the early days, and it might be argued that some of the groups still get wrong is that the way to grow a veterinary practice commercially. And commercial growth and veteran practice isn't a dirty word. Every single veteran business needs to grow to do better. And it's a good thing that we talk about that. That is an outcome measure of doing amazing things for your people, for the clinical work that you're doing for your clients. It really doesn't matter outside of those three things what you do. Yes, you've got to buy well and there's some hygiene factors. But fundamentally, if those are the things and EBITDA is an outcome measure. I think some of the corporates in the early days felt like the outcome, the KPI was EBITDA. And I should come around and say, hey, your EBITDA is down, your revenue is down. What are you going to do about that? Your average transaction values are down. You don't really care about that. What you do care about is, I seeing more patients? Am I doing the best thing I can do for patients? Can I afford that new ultrasound machine next year? Because then I'll be able to do X, Y, and Z. Those are things we care about as clinicians. So tying what motivates a clinician, and by the way, non-clinical colleagues in practice who are equally passionate about the animals we're looking after, is not EBITDA. Yes, we want to get paid. Yes, everyone wants to be rewarded for their work, but it's not the thing that motivates people. It's an outcome as you're doing the stuff that does, I think. Vanessa: been in a clinic that was bought while I was there. And this makes sense to me because you're a very people person. So I see you going naturally into leadership. I imagine you tripped up and fell into this because it's people are drawn to you. You're kind, you're caring, like, it's authentic. So I see how this has happened. We were bought by a clinic and it started that way. It was we care about you less by you and ultrasound machine kind of thing. And then almost dead on two years. was KPIs, EBDAR, KPIs, EBDAR. And it was awful. Ben: Yeah. And I imagine unsuccessful. Vanessa: Yeah, I mean, I was the best thing there. Ben: Yeah. So it was an easy start. Vanessa: No, but I did leave because of it. Which is great for me. That's where the vet station was born. After me going, ⁓ hell no, this is not for me. So no, I can't imagine it's successful. Ben: I don't think it is. I think what happens... So the two years thing is interesting because I would observe that journey a number of times. I've seen probably well over 150 acquisitions through where you go... Yeah, definitely. And I've seen them go really badly and I've seen them go really well. And my wife sold her practice and went through that process as well. So I saw it from the other side. So I think the ability to be confident that doing the right thing for colleagues, doing the amazing clinical work and looking after your clients will deliver. is actually easy when the numbers are good. It's really easy to sit down with your finance team and go, we're doing all these three things that I don't need to explain to you. I don't need to explain to you why introducing laparoscopic neutering is going to be amazing because the numbers are green and everybody's happy. The really strong leadership teams, I think, that have emerged and may we continue to emerge will be the ones that retain the confidence in those things when the numbers are bad. Because there's a range of things that affect the numbers. We've just been through three years of pain with the CMA. And it's been difficult and our clients have been fed a lot of messages, some fair, some not fair, mean that there have been challenges to veterinary businesses in the last two or three years. And the most successful practices, and I very much imagine this has been your approach, is what we need to do in the face of all of this is do an even better job communicating with our clients, do even better when it comes to clinical work, and be even more cautious and careful of making sure our colleagues are enjoying life. That is harder to do when the numbers are red. So when... some of the bigger corporations from big investments have been made, know, the size of IVC now, it's a massive group. It's harder to persuade non-clinical people that those are still the right things when the numbers are real, I think. having seen, which is why I think it's very measurable. It's very hard for me to go, the thing I need to do in Vanessa's practice to really drive performance is change the culture in the consulting room. Vanessa: Yeah. Because that's the only thing they can measure, Ben: Not a real life example, I'm sure. Whereby the vets in Vanessa's practice have got absolute confidence to say, every time one of my clients leaves the consult room, they're going to know what was the best thing for that patient. Contextualized, not the best gold standard, whatever. But I've communicated clearly what I think would be the right thing for that dog, as if it was my own. And we assume vets have the confidence to do that, but they don't always. If I think that's the fix, and I by the way think that's the fix for 90 % of practices that have an opportunity to grow or the opportunity rather than... Vanessa: I've had a single conversation with my vets about turnover or costs. Unnecessary. All they get is do a good job for that patient. Ben: amazing job for the patient. But you can't stick that in a spreadsheet. And so if you've got a business and you're at the helm of a business that's underperforming and you know, you're 30 million adrift away need to be on EBITDA to service your facility and whatever, whatever the stressful situation, the, the, ability to go, the solution is cultural change. ⁓ and trust me, it'll come through versus when are we going to measure that? How are we going to care? That's difficult. That's really challenging. And Vanessa: And imagine a lapse in time. Ben: Hey, it's not, it's quick. I think it's quicker than you think it would be, but, but you're absolutely right. This is not, I've, I've gone into a clinic and I've pulled that particular lever and tomorrow, hey, Presto, that's not for absolutely not because it's about giving people a confidence to be able to do what they can do naturally really well. And I love your description. If all we did was do the right thing every time in front. And there are so many human factors that get in the way of that. But if that was our soul. So, so I think, so if I take some of the groups that have done it, I think really well. And I, by the way, should say I am not a believer that all vet business should be run entirely by vets and nurses. And I genuinely think that a blend of people who come from experiences of really mature professions and businesses alongside vets, I genuinely believe that's the answer. But I do think the businesses that have had vets closer to the helm have adapted more easily to actually getting to the... Solution being some of those cultural really meaningful things that you would do in your clinic every day without thinking And if they've been able to convey that to the rest of the board actually know the real solution here is not More tactical projects more spreadsheet related activity more targets. It's actually no no Fundamentally, it's an amazing business Because we just do the right things for our patients so I think I think conveying that to a set of non-clinical people is hard and it's harder when the numbers are red. Vanessa: So, ⁓ did the corporates bring the CMA upon us? Ben: Did the corporates bring the CMA about us? I think it would be hard for me to... So absent the corporates, would the CMA be here? So the first thing to say, suppose would be that the CMA or a former incarnation of the very year we qualified was in the profession, right? So when we qualified 2008, we had prescription medication rules that had been brought in by the competition, whatever it was called then, it wasn't the CMA, was it? So it was very relevant to Equine at the time. Vanessa: Pretend that I knew that. Ben: It wasn't only post the big expansion of the corporate. Now there were corporates. CPS was still a thing at that point. But I don't believe that was particularly related to, there was a very small penetration of the corporates. But it would be reductive, I think, to think that the corporates alone, and we'll come back to what we even mean by the corporates, were the reason that the CMA came about. Because actually, I think what's come about, that one of the things that has has brought the CMA conversation to the floor is veterinary care is totally different than it was 30 years ago. Vanessa: totally different. But it's really hard to explain it to people when they see the profits that are being made. Because you, you know, I've had these conversations, particularly after being on the Panorama show, asked me questions like I'm the Lord of it. But ⁓ it's hard to explain to people how you can have this millions and millions of pounds excess profit. But we're saying to them, prices are more because we have better equipment and we can do more tests and things like that. So, you know, I'm just saying to people, I can do a CT scan now. And when I qualified, we wouldn't be doing, well, maybe we'd have access to MRI once a month or something like that. But now we have frequent access to CT scanners and we can buy them. can put them in our practice, but we have to pay for it. And now we do digital x-rays, which is so much better. My God, can you imagine dipping the X-ray thing and looking at these days? Absolutely not. Yeah. And then they see these reports coming out and just the sheer amount of profit that's coming out of veterinary. Yeah. It's difficult to explain. Ben: It is. So think there's a few things to unpack there. So I would first of all, go to the profits. So I do think that again, that we're lazy at confusing EBITDA with profit. And actually the level of investment that's being required in some of the groups, obviously some I know better than others, to support that EBITDA in terms of capital investment is really significant. So actually you've got to take yourself down to true net profits. And at which point you're not in the tens and tens and tens of millions of pounds that get reported. So I think that's an important distinction. The other ⁓ key point is not just the access to care that your clients have now. So you're right. CT. How many clinics now are operating without an ultrasound machine? Not many. How many are operating without digital x-ray? Not many. It's increasingly the case that we've got dental x-ray in lot of our clinics. Vanessa: And though they don't, they probably still have access to of their other clinics. Ben: So definitely you're right to call out that change. also think that the way, so out of hours is a big thing. So if you think about when we qualified or certainly when we were seeing EMS, out of hours for the most part was the on-call vet taking the call from their bed, rolling out if it needed to be seen, sticking something on a drip, going back however frequently was deemed necessary, peering around the door at that dog to check on it versus today, an awake team in a 24 hour center with ECC expertise, nurses, treatments going on through the night. That's a really different thing and a much more expensive thing to Vanessa: also what's expected by the clients because they are really shocked if you offer to keep a pet in your clinic and pop in every couple of hours. Ben: I don't think that's what people want anymore. I think, I also think that you've seen, so alongside the out of hours shift, because you know, whatever it is, 80 odd percent of companion animal practices outsource out of hours now. And that's a growing number. And you would imagine that grows and grows. ⁓ those that remain are often mixed practices. So you now need additional colleagues to work at night versus the colleagues that were doing that as on call previously. So there's a cost to that. So I think that's changed, but the product's changed as well. And then equally during the week, you know, the I'm such a good thing that vets aren't all working 70 hour weeks now, but that fundamentally also comes at a cost as well because vets are now working 40 hour weeks, much more controlled. Thank goodness, because people are getting some sleep and they're not doing the on-call and going into work the next day and doing on-call as we would have done. And certainly the generation before us did, but that again comes at a cost. I do think there's some structural change in the profession. Vanessa: also profit. Ben: So have clinics become materially more profitable when they become corporate? No. I don't think they have. I don't think there's evidence to suggest that a practice that if you took the same 1000 practices that IVC own and you put them back into the end or you looked at the same window of those independent practices in the same timeline, they'd be fundamentally extracting much more profit. They might be doing it a slightly different way. I don't have access to IVC's P &L. Vanessa: Yeah, I don't Ben: I think you'd be surprised. The most profitable practices. Vanessa: study that I looked at, somebody sent me, he was quoted on that show actually, showed them as profitable, but it was really hard to compare them from the CMA data. It was really, really hard to compare them to independence because they couldn't pull the data from the independence. So actually we don't know. Ben: And I would say the most successful, I say this as good thing, the most successful highest profit margin businesses I've ever seen ever have been independently in practices, brilliantly run. And by the way, in a good way, I say that as a positive thing, not because, they were managing to make loads of profits. mean, they were doing an amazing job. had an amazingly low clinical team who'd been there for decades with incredibly loyal clients who had the trust to do the right thing every time they'd managed as a result to invest in tertiary diagnostic imaging machinery or whatever it is. And therefore we're able to offer much more. had the vet that had done all the training to do TPLOs. those practices, some of the most profitable practices and successful practices I've seen have been independent. So I am not, I think the corporates would love to say, yeah, we know how to do business. We all make practices much more profitable. And the CMA may well have adopted that narrative. I genuinely don't I genuinely don't think the corporates have done a better job of making money out of practices and independent vested. Vanessa: It's been implied. be interesting. Ben: But you won't get it because you can't see the independence. Vanessa: No, they tried, but it was coming in so many different forms and obviously we don't have the accountant teams and the finance teams to pull out the data. Ben: And you've also got to remember as well that, again, that point around real profit versus imaginary EBITDA profit, which isn't profit. I just, don't think the whilst the corporates might say we are the business experts, we'll make more money on the practice. I just don't think that's played out. Vanessa: So why do you work for a corporate? Why haven't you got your own practice? Ben: So I'm so honestly, the reason I work for a, and we'll come back again to the challenge of what is a corporate. Cause I actually work for a partnership. ⁓ so why. Vanessa: rebranding recently as well. Ben: And we've rebranded to reflect that, correct? I fundamentally believe that groups have a really exciting and important role to play in our profession going forward. I think the profession, I think there will be an amazing part of the profession that we're as independent forever in a day. And that I'm not suggesting for a second that the groups would ever replace or we'd want that to happen. But I do think groups of veterinary practices collaborating has a real, can have, and I definitely am not sitting here claiming it's had it today. an amazingly positive impact on our profession. Vanessa: Do you know what's funny? The independents have started grouping together. Ben: from more than just purchasing, as in working together. Vanessa: Yeah, yeah. We've got buying groups, but that's separate. But you know, I could pick up my phone now and I've got WhatsApp groups with ⁓ independent practice owners and we help each other. we, one of my friends that has his own group, he has, you know, a CT scanner and he's like that. And I say, can I bring a client over? Can you look after my client for me? Can you do me a deal if it's one of my, you know, little old ones? on a pension. And we do help each other out that way, but we're just not officially together. Ben: not efficient together. I don't think the profession has been pretty good at doing that generally, You'd hope. You would hope so. I'm sure it doesn't happen everywhere. So if I took my North Star of what this maybe unrealistic vision that I think the perfect group could play, if I look across to, let me take, actually I'll take the, ⁓ and this is a bad example because everyone will think I'm talking about finance, but I'm going to say it anyway. Take Deloitte. And I know that journey a little bit. My brother's a partner at Deloitte, so I kind of know the journey he went on as an accountant. But he started his career running really hard to try and get a gig to be a graduate at Deloitte. as, I don't know how long he's been there, 20 years now, and he's a partner. The experience he's had being surrounded by people with vast amounts of experience, incredibly structured development, opportunities to work in different areas of the business across different areas of the country to the point where he now sits as a partner. and has an amazing life, amazing professional stimulation and benefits financially from that journey. I believe there's a veterinary partnership and that's, we'll come back to the partnership element, a veterinary partnership that could do that for us, whereby actually it's an amazing journey to go on to be part of a leading partner owned veterinary group in the UK. So I believe that that can be a really positive thing. The second part of it is clinically, I do believe if you, that we could do better on clinical research if we genuinely had, for example, none of the groups have, there's been some stuff done by some of the groups around this, ⁓ but no one's really nailed it, I don't think. Where actually, if you owned or were a group that had a thousand practices that all recorded data in the same way on the same system, the power of clinical data would be phenomenal. And there have been some amazing work done by the VET compasses and the South's Nets to try and... do that across different schemes and networks and practice groups. But that does have its limitations. Whereas if you were one singular group operating in the same way, that feels to me, and that's my slightly nerdy, went and did a resonance. But I just love that idea. Imagine you could pull together data at scale. Because we do suffer from that a little bit, don't we? Even significant scale studies in our profession, when you compare it to the meta analysis of diabetes in people, is sort of ridiculous. Vanessa: Same way as, yeah. tell which of us did the residency. Ben: I can say the words, don't understand anything. you know what mean? I feel there's power in that. But I'm principally driven because I really hold dear this belief that we could create a force for good in the profession. Vanessa: So do you think there's an independent pendant versus corporate war? And did I start it? Ben: So first of all, I don't know what you mean because I don't know what a corporate is. yeah. So this is because I think the profession, oh, by the way, don't mean independence. Vanessa: That's what you want to tell me, right? It is. It's really weird that we've suddenly been labeled, right? So me, it's very easy for me to say I'm independent. Ben: One or the other. It's binary. That's easy. That one feels clear. think. So there we are. So maybe not. I don't know whether you had to take a loan out. So, a finance company of some sort has an interest over your practice. No. Okay. you, but there might be... Vanessa: You love them. my house or does that count? Ben: You may be because the presumably has the more I'm being slightly extreme to make the point. But for example, my friend of mine set up her practice, awesome independent practice, fiercely independent practice, by the way, but didn't have money and her uncle lent her some money and they did it through an enterprise investment scheme. And as such, she owns 30 % of the shares. He's not a vet. So is she independent because she's got a non-vet owning a stake? Question mark. I think we'd probably say she is. That one feels like you'd sit at the independent side. Go across to a large group of 20 practices that are springing up and somewhere marketing heavily on independent that's actually backed by venture capital. Are they independent at that point? Vanessa: I sometimes I feel like it's scale as well. maybe like in independent fields, small, right? But then some people and I've tried Googling this and there's not an answer, by the way. Some people saying the majority owners need to be the vets rather than the number of practices, the people owning it. Maybe you can have a little bit of a loan, but you can't have a big bit of a loan. Ben: So size, so there's a number. Yeah. Okay. So you'd say the majority. So what about someone like me? So take me as an example and imagine you were, I go, I'm going to set up a bunch of 20 practices and I'm going to own 51 % of them. And the vets in the practices are going to own 49 or say, I'm going to say, let's take the scale out of it. So I'm going to set up 300 and I'm going to have 51 % of the shares and every vet and the vets. Now I'm a vet, but I'm not a companion animal vet. I couldn't go and stand in that consulting room and do the job they're doing. And ultimately in that scenario, I'd I'd be a busy, I'd be running it. running a business for whatever motivation I might have. That feels like I'd be a corporate, but by the definition of majority share, wouldn't be. I'd be an independent. And I say that only because I think it's interesting for me now because I do, I work in a partnership. Vanessa: I think VC backed feels corporate to me. Ben: Probably, but then how are going to define the difference? I mean, you go all the way to private equity. Maybe people get comfortable. That's definitely corporate. probably. What about if you want to go fund me site? I did have set up a practice through GoFundMe, would I feel corporate then? Because I've taken finance from... know. Is it just a donation? Is it a payment? Right now, working in the Medivet partnership, a significant proportion of our shares are owned by our partners. and in local sites, but the majority aren't. Although there are people like me who own shares in the center and I'm a vet, so would that count? So I think we've allowed the narrative of corporate versus independent to stick. And I think that's a shame because I think there's a whole range of ownership models that could still be a good thing for Vanessa: Especially now because it's changing, isn't it? It's changing again. We're doing it different ways again. Definitely. One of the terms they use in large veterinary groups instead, aren't they? What's the number? Yeah. When am I like, you know, I'm larger than life. So I suspect. Ben: They are that has come out a bit more, hasn't it? Exactly. When do I become large? DNA Vet Care wouldn't like to get labeled a large veterinary group under that ownership, but what would be the size of which they'd suddenly would be? Or Goddards in its day when it was independent, would they have wanted to be known as a or indeed Medivet, of course, which was a partnership at a very significant size. Yes, exactly. So I think, I think we need to get more nuanced and talk about different models. And obviously Vets Pets is the one we haven't mentioned. A JV franchise style model. Yeah. Where you've got. Vanessa: the OG LVGs. Ben: really significant numbers of partners who are owning their own clinics, but they're doing it in a, they really do own their own clinics and the majority, as ⁓ I understand their model, but they're part of a model where they have an overarching, I don't exactly know how they structure it, but then they don't own the clinic. So the vets own the clinic. does that mean they're not? And obviously vets have done a really good job in the CMA of getting that message out there that we're not a corporate because the vets own the clinic, but is that so fundamentally different to a clinic where have an equity partnership in the veteran some other center. So it's more nuanced. Vanessa: I'm actually, I'm getting bored of talking about it, but the thing is that the clients want to know and they want clarity. I think that's where the whole thing came. They were like, who are you? What are you? want to know. And they want clarity and is there clarity because even the RCVS they've been investigating people. Are you independent? Are you not? And that doesn't seem to be clear from their point of view either potentially with the reform is going to address it. Ben: Yeah, look, I suppose the one thing I think is hugely positive coming out of the CMA is transparent branding. It'd be very hard for me to say, look, full disclosure, I a group that didn't brand its practices, right? So I'm not sitting here saying, ⁓ my goodness, the profession needs to change without any blood on my hands. Fundamentally, you cannot argue that branding your clinics as under one ownership, whatever that branding is, is the right thing to do. So if you're in a town which happens to have three IVC practices, you should probably know as a client that they're all owned by the same people. However, that ends up having to be executed. That needs to happen. That feels like that's undeniably a good outcome of the CMA. on that basis, you wouldn't necessarily have to make the distinction between corporate and non-corporate, but you would understand who owned what as a client and as a vet. So I think that feels like change that should and will happen. Vanessa: Yeah. Well, it has to now. Yeah. Yeah. And then we've got the veterinary reform, the Surgeons Act reform. Yeah. And I spoke to some people about that and they didn't really know the difference, which was crazy. Because I said the veterinary Surgeons Reform Act is probably the most important thing that's happening. And we've been asking for that as vets because it was very out of date. That doesn't seem to be talked about as much. Ben: Well, then now it will. No, it's kind of fallen in the shadow a little bit of the CMA, hasn't it? It's a little bit less exciting for the media, I imagine, but really important for us as a profession. mean, the bit I would focus on more than any other is allowing our nurses to perform the role that they could be and should be performing in our profession. Because you talk about the cost of care. One great big unlocker to us being able to provide more affordable care in the long run has to be allowing nurses to do way more. And by the way, What I would also like to say is that meaning that nurses can earn more because that's something that hasn't moved enough and has the potential to move enormously when we can start allowing nurses to do more. Vanessa: losing a lot of talent. actually had a lady come into my consultation room today and it was the first time that I'd met her and ⁓ she had seen some of the stuff that I've been doing recently and she was like, this is great. This is refreshing. I wish that I had someone like you around when I was still a nurse. I left the profession because I was done with it. And we had a little chat, just when I was really interested, what were you done with? And I think it was a point where she had nowhere else to grow as a nurse. ⁓ She felt like she was being used as a cleaner and, you know, just doing menial tasks and that she couldn't learn anymore and she couldn't earn anymore. And it was a dead end job. And I said, it's awful because we're losing all of our talent. And, you know, she's probably an amazing nurse and it's so hard to find an experienced nurse. off that level now. Ben: Yeah. And the clinical pathway that would exist in, let's imagine, veterinary format does an amazing job on suddenly nurses can do all the things that we think they should be able to do. one thing we should own as a profession is do the majority of RVNs working in practices across the UK undertake the full range of things they could be doing today? And I don't think we could be honest and say, yes, yes, we're already at the ceiling. There's opportunity everywhere for nurses still to do more within the existing framework. However, there's a significant number of nurses who are extremely experienced in surgery procedures, in consulting, in X, Y, and Z, that absolutely could take on a whole new career, a whole new pathway, if the reform is done as well as it could be. So I think that's hugely important and has to some extent been overshadowed by the CMA. Vanessa: I'll check my list then. Okay. I want see if there's anything fun on there. I have a question for you. Yeah. Do you have a Garmin watch or an Apple watch? Ben: I have a Garmin watch. But tragically, that's because it's a Garmin golf watch. And I've owned it for two years and I've played two rounds of golf on it. Vanessa: I just, I hate the Apple watch. I've lost it. I'm going to give it to. Ben: Well, yeah. Kept telling me news that I didn't want to hear. Like, yeah, it's got worse. Yeah. Vanessa: Exactly. I just, I got one for my birthday, Garmin and I wore it yesterday for just a normal day at practice. And in the evening, it told me I'd had a stressful day. Does your Garmin watch tell you you've had a stressful day? Ben: you It doesn't. So I don't know whether that means it's not working or I'm not working hard enough, but it has yet to tell me that I've had a stressful day. It tells me I've done an inadequate number of steps frequently. It tells me all sorts of things that I want to know, it hasn't told me about a stressful day. But my car, every time I get in it tells me that I need to take a break. Vanessa: Right. have a coffee. Ben: I start driving in the morning in five minutes. You need to have a break. So I think it might be my driving. So none of my technology is giving me messages I want to hear. Vanessa: I did leave the watch next to the autoclave for a few hours while I was operating, so I'm not sure if that interfered with it. Maybe there was some heat coming out of the back and it thought I was... Stressful. Ben: Right. Yeah. Vanessa: ⁓ I wanted to ask you, can you be a badass CEO and be nice? Ben: 100 % in a people business. I'm sure you can in other businesses as well. But I actually would argue that could you not be? Nice doesn't mean, what does nice mean? Nice means treating people really fairly, having the people that you work with absolutely the first thing you think about when you wake up in the morning. I don't think you can run a veterinary business or a people business successfully if that isn't who you are. I might be wrong and I'll probably be vastly successful than people who have a much more hard-hearted approach. Vanessa: Well... Ben: But my personal view is if you're not thinking about the people in, whether you're an independent single site practice, whether you own 500 practices, those are the people that determine whether you're successful or not. So I would argue you could only be a successful, or in your words, CEO if that's where you start and finish your day. Vanessa: Yeah. So I've worked for Medivet before and I felt like it was a really negative culture when I was there. And when I saw that you were taken, I was really happy, but I also didn't want it to suck the life out of you. Because you are nice and you are a people person, but it must be challenging. Ben: So look, I know that Medivet, as with CVS when I joined it, hasn't always had the best reputation for how it treats people in the past. We should own that because there's no point me sitting here saying otherwise. thing I, and one of the reasons I joined was because one of the things I'm most passionate about is how can you impact, scale how people feel coming to work at a VETS. And that was what drove me huge satisfaction at CVS. we definitely didn't finish that journey, but it felt like we'd made progress. In terms of how has it been since I started and how has it started life? Absolutely not. Cause one of the things you realise in whatever perception you might have going into any group is that there are amazing numbers of awesome people doing great stuff in their practices every single day. So one of the first things I did, so my first two months I was at Medivet, I literally drove up and down the country holding partner sessions to me, as many as possible. think there about 15 partners I didn't manage to meet in my first two months. Vanessa: This is why your car tells you to take Ben: ⁓ Because I wanted to meet the guys. wanted to understand it. And my goodness, I was blown away by people who were like you experienced in veterinary practice, unbelievably passionate about what we do. Great people, great people, really kind, not shy and giving me feedback about what needs to change, which was a good thing, but definitely not backwards and coming forwards. ⁓ But because they cared so much about what we could do with this group. So it's anything but suck the life out of me. It's been an amazing, how long have we been in there now? Nine months, 10 months. Phenomenally energizing. There are definitely things we in the center need to fix. So life is much easier for people in practice. Some of that's like heavy going. We've got some systems changes we need to make and that can sometimes feel hard, but my goodness, you've only got to go and spend a day on any one of our practices to just get all that energy back and go, wow, yeah, this is why we're doing this. So it's been anything but it's been an amazing experience. ⁓ Vanessa: You should be a motivational speaker. Ben: sure any of the partners would agree. Vanessa: I've got one last question. Yeah. Because people always ask me this and I don't know the answer because I decided when I was five, why did you want to be a vet? Ben: I didn't. I wanted to be a racehorse trainer. ⁓ No, I wanted to be a racehorse trainer. think now my parents pointed out that racehorse trainers typically came from families with money. And so we were like, can't do that, Ben. So actually they took me to meet a trainer in Midland. We're from North Yorkshire. A guy who was a vet who'd gone into it by being a vet. So I was like, cool, I'm just going to go and be a vet and then I can be a racehorse trainer. Vanessa: ⁓ I thought you were gonna say- fell into it. Ben: I never quite got there and I'm sure I'd have been a hopeless race horse trainer. what I did throughout, as you will remember, I was laser focused on I want to work in thoroughbred work and I want get into racing, but I ended up loving being a vet in that world. Vanessa: Mostly I remember May Balls and stuff, but I might've remembered. Ben: Occasional parts of our veterinary education, you recall. Mainly through photography or something. But yeah, that was me. I wanted to be a racehorse trainer. Vanessa: You might be the first one that said that to me. Most people just like, when I was born, I wanted to be a vet. ⁓ that's great. So, veterinary was your side hustle. Ben: No, and I'm very glad I was my side. I sort of get me to do what I really wanted to do. Maybe one day I'll trade horses. I don't think I will. ⁓ but yeah. Vanessa: Great. So we fixed veterinary today, haven't we? I think so. Yeah. Ben: Perfect. We certainly know the plan. Yeah. Thank you. A pleasure as always to see you. Amazing. Thanks for having me as one of your first guests. Vanessa: Thank you so much for coming on.