Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / THE COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL KNOWLEDGE

Transcript

THE COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL KNOWLEDGE · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: A Poche Production.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Adam Shand. This is part one of a special two-part
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: episode on a story of redemption and reinvention. Coming out
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: of prison is a challenge, even after a short sentence.
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  Speaker 2: It's easy to lose one's place in a fast-changing world.
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  Speaker 1: Employment options narrow.
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  Speaker 2: Friends and family lose patience, move on, and the confidence
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  Speaker 2: to restart a life's journey can be fragile. Kyle Madden
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  Speaker 2: grew up on the streets of southwest Sydney and spent
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  Speaker 2: much of his 20s and early 30s in and out
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  Speaker 2: of jail. Each time he was freed, Kyle had a
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  Speaker 2: plan to go straight, but somehow it never worked out
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  Speaker 2: and back he went. Each day in prison took him
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  Speaker 2: further into a life of serious and violent crimes. Things
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  Speaker 2: only changed when he hit rock bottom and began to
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  Speaker 2: take responsibility for his life. Some bad choices were his,
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  Speaker 2: others were out of his control, but Kyle realised he.
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  Speaker 1: Had to be accountable for all of it.
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  Speaker 2: Two years after his last stretch, Kyle is learning that
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  Speaker 2: to stay free requires him to achieve his personal best
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  Speaker 2: each and every day. I caught up with Kyle after
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  Speaker 2: he contacted me to share his story.
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  Speaker 1: Here it is. Kyle Madden, welcome to Real Crime. How
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  Speaker 1: are you going?
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  Speaker 3: I'm good, Adam. How are you, mate?
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  Speaker 1: I'm very well, thanks. Thanks for sharing your story with me.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's an important story because you're in the
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  Speaker 2: midst of changing your life. You know, you must have thought,
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  Speaker 2: you know, in the darkest days that your life was
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  Speaker 2: kind of set out the way it was going, but
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  Speaker 2: you're finding the strength to change your life.
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  Speaker 1: Where are you at in your life now?
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  Speaker 3: Well, the position that I'm at in my life now is.
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  Speaker 4: I'm able to foresee the future as not an impending
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  Speaker 4: doom of me spending the rest of my life in jail.
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  Speaker 3: I've detached myself from.
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  Speaker 4: That criminal world and that my criminal past and my
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  Speaker 4: past behaviours and I'm trying to rectify it in a
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  Speaker 4: way where I can be a, the way I'm living
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  Speaker 4: my life now is a testament to people that have
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  Speaker 4: endured the same thing, same obstacles that I have and
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  Speaker 4: to show them that they can come out on top
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  Speaker 4: and that they can reintegrate into society and that they
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  Speaker 4: can become a normal member of society. Look, depending on
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  Speaker 4: what your crimes are, there are some crimes that just
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  Speaker 4: cannot be accepted and that's just the way it is.
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  Speaker 3: Anything to do with kids and any sexual offences, right,
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  Speaker 3: you're squashed.
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  Speaker 4: But if you haven't done any of those, you can
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  Speaker 4: still come back into society, all right? And.
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  Speaker 3: What's done now is that I've worked a lot on myself.
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  Speaker 4: So when I got out, I'd been in jail since
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  Speaker 4: I was from 21 to 34. I'd done 12 and
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  Speaker 4: a half years. So when I got out, I was just,
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I didn't know how to live. I didn't
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  Speaker 4: know how to be social out here. I knew how
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  Speaker 4: to act socially inside, but I didn't know how to
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  Speaker 4: act socially outside. That was dealing with problems, relationships, seeing
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  Speaker 4: red flags, Just even normal conversation, I wasn't able to
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  Speaker 4: do or feel comfortable, all right.
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  Speaker 3: In that situation.
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  Speaker 4: I just had no experience or whatever damage had been
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  Speaker 4: done to me, I didn't know how to reverse it.
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  Speaker 4: But now I've reversed it by gaining skills and putting
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  Speaker 4: myself in positions where I'm uncomfortable, just like when I
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  Speaker 4: first went to prison. I was uncomfortable in that environment,
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  Speaker 4: but I was forced to be uncomfortable until I became comfortable.
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  Speaker 3: And that's what I had to do when I was
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  Speaker 3: out here. I had to put.
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  Speaker 4: Myself in uncomfortable positions, all right, of going to work,
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  Speaker 4: of being stressed out when I didn't know what was
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  Speaker 4: going on, okay, putting myself in positions where it was
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  Speaker 4: very hard to learn, okay, because I'm on the spectrum
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  Speaker 4: for autism and I've got ADHD, and so it was
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  Speaker 4: a bit harder for me to sort of understand people's
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  Speaker 4: commands and instructions. So I had to ask questions to
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  Speaker 4: gather the information for me to understand it properly.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I can see the problem.
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  Speaker 2: And, you know, because I think, and just 12 and
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  Speaker 2: a half years away from the time you're 21 to
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  Speaker 2: your mid thirties, the world's changed a lot, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and that's hard in itself. You didn't do it continuously.
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  Speaker 2: You had sort of short periods out, but when you
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  Speaker 2: come out and the world must be very confronting and
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  Speaker 2: and it must have been stressful for you you know
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  Speaker 2: what do i do on the first day the second
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  Speaker 2: day what's my life going to look like tell us
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  Speaker 2: what that feeling was like when you'd already made the
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  Speaker 2: decision but now you're confronting a world that's changed while
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  Speaker 2: you've been away okay.
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  Speaker 4: Well so from the time from 21 to 34 okay
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  Speaker 4: i was gaining knowledge in the the criminal aspect if
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  Speaker 4: you want to call it like that okay and i
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  Speaker 4: was building my networks and my connections and all types
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  Speaker 4: of stuff like that tilts.
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  Speaker 3: Like, you get on the level that the.
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  Speaker 4: Police just put that much restrictions on you that you
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  Speaker 4: can't even do crime if you want to.
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  Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?
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  Speaker 4: Like, you're that red hot, you walk outside, cops are
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  Speaker 4: on you, and then after this sentence, what I went through,
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  Speaker 4: I said, it does not matter how hard it is
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  Speaker 4: to change, okay? It can't be as hard as doing
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  Speaker 4: a four or five-year sentence with a couple of years
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  Speaker 4: in segregation. So I said, you know what? Look, I'm
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  Speaker 4: going to give it five years. I'll go, I'll go
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  Speaker 4: for one whole year.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
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  Speaker 4: Doing the right thing. And I won't do a thing
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  Speaker 4: wrong when I'll see how that goes for me. So
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  Speaker 4: when I first got out, everything was really confronting me.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 4: So I didn't know how to work. I didn't know
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  Speaker 4: how to use a drill properly. I didn't know how
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  Speaker 4: to do anything like that. So that in that aspect,
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  Speaker 4: even driving on the road, okay. Dealing with people, cutting
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  Speaker 4: you off and carrying on and all that kind of stuff.
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  Speaker 3: So in jail, If I had an issue with someone,
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  Speaker 3: even if it wasn't properly, I had the right to say, Oi,
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  Speaker 3: come in the cell and you could have a crack.
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  Speaker 4: That's how the social aspect was dealt inside, okay? And
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  Speaker 4: then it escalates from there. Out here, you can't do
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  Speaker 4: that on the street.
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  Speaker 3: You can't.
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  Speaker 4: You have an argument with someone, you can't bash them.
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  Speaker 3: You can't swear at them. You can't do that.
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  Speaker 4: You have to compose yourself in a totally upside-down manner
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  Speaker 4: to what I was used to doing for 20 years.
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  Speaker 3: So I had to break... okay, my subconscious acting inside
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  Speaker 3: myself and the patterns that I had formed that had
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  Speaker 3: now become my character. So I had to change the
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  Speaker 3: person who I was. Wow.
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  Speaker 1: And did you have any help? Did someone, did you
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  Speaker 1: have a mentor or a friend, a relative, anything?
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  Speaker 3: Nah, man. Okay.
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  Speaker 4: So when I got out, my family, I have a
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  Speaker 4: very toxic family. Okay. And that's just what it is.
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  Speaker 3: Okay. It's toxic. It's been toxic since I was a child.
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  Speaker 3: It's not going to change.
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  Speaker 4: So I had to even though I love my family, okay,
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  Speaker 4: it's detrimental to my success. And I had to, I
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  Speaker 4: had to really acknowledge that that was a fact, even
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  Speaker 4: though some people are your family, they might be your
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  Speaker 4: good friends. You don't know what really they have inside
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  Speaker 4: for you.
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  Speaker 3: Okay. And that was, I had to detach from that. Okay.
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  Speaker 4: And I had to detach from, from then. So I
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  Speaker 4: didn't have too many people around me.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
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  Speaker 4: And, um, from my old life was very paranoid about
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  Speaker 4: dramas coming back and so I just wanted to be
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  Speaker 4: quiet and just live my life happy so what I
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  Speaker 4: did is I did source out a couple of people
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  Speaker 4: that I aspired to be like okay so I've got
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  Speaker 4: a mate who owns cars he does a lot of
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  Speaker 4: car racing and he builds units and all that kind
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  Speaker 4: of stuff so I stuck to this bloke like glue
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  Speaker 4: yeah and I watched how he coped with people I
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  Speaker 4: watched how he how he dealt with you know just
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  Speaker 4: any bartering issues or any issues with electricians, whatever it
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  Speaker 4: was when he was on the site. Okay, I stuck
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  Speaker 4: to him. One of the bosses that I had, I
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  Speaker 4: watched how he'd done things. He didn't do really things
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  Speaker 4: the best way, but still he was doing things that
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  Speaker 4: were a lot better than how I was doing. So
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  Speaker 4: I watched him, and then I've got this old lady
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  Speaker 4: who owns several pubs, which I had done a job
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  Speaker 4: for her, and I'd just go and sit with her.
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  Speaker 3: And she became like an old friend. She reminded me
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  Speaker 3: of my grandmother.
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  Speaker 4: But she's really business savvy and I watched how she
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  Speaker 4: dealt with her staff.
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  Speaker 3: And the way she ran her business.
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  Speaker 4: And then I was like, okay, so I was taking
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  Speaker 4: bits from all of them to build my new character,
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  Speaker 4: if you understand that.
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  Speaker 1: I do. I do.
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  Speaker 2: And it's really important having mentors and role models in
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  Speaker 2: your life because from an early age, you got involved
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  Speaker 2: in crime. And what was your path into that crime world?
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  Speaker 2: What were the early doors of that like?
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  Speaker 4: Well, look, I believe everything, okay, is shaped by your surroundings, okay?
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  Speaker 4: When you're younger, because I've done a lot of research
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  Speaker 4: into why I was the way I am and why
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  Speaker 4: I had these attitudes or thinking patterns towards these types
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  Speaker 4: of decisions that I was making. And I've done research,
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  Speaker 4: read psychology books and all that, and from the ages of,
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  Speaker 4: I think it's 4 to 12, 85% of your decision-making, okay,
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  Speaker 4: and your attitudes towards decision-making and why is forged from
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  Speaker 4: that age.
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  Speaker 3: So when I was in from that age, I was
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  Speaker 3: in a bit of a really hostile environment.
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  Speaker 4: And that brought a lot of factors into my life
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  Speaker 4: when I was younger, okay, which shouldn't have been brought
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  Speaker 4: in and shape sort of who I was in my
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  Speaker 4: teenage years, which then sort of went off the Richter scale,
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  Speaker 4: you know, so, so from about ages of 13, 14,
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  Speaker 4: my dad was overseas all the time. And so I
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: was just left at home to go to school and
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  Speaker 4: living in a massive house at 14 years old and
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  Speaker 4: then so he wasn't around so i didn't have any
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  Speaker 4: really governing body for myself so i was i was
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  Speaker 4: looking to other men for you know guidance and which
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  Speaker 4: was the street.
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  Speaker 1: And who were those who are the people that you
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  Speaker 1: ended up knocking around with Well, I.
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  Speaker 4: Ended up knocking around with a couple of the big
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  Speaker 4: boys from the area. Look, I don't want to name
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  Speaker 4: too many names, but a lot of them are overseas
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  Speaker 4: now and a lot of.
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  Speaker 3: Them are dead.
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  Speaker 4: And, you know, when I got caught up with those
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  Speaker 4: boys from the area and a couple of other boys
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  Speaker 4: from fucking TV shows and all that kind of that
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  Speaker 4: they've made about, it brought a lot of heat on me, man,
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  Speaker 4: which then, in fact, you know, then I knew I
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  Speaker 4: was dealing with the big boys. So when the copters
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  Speaker 4: come around, they weren't fucking around anymore. So my life
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  Speaker 4: got really hard after that. You know, so the first
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  Speaker 4: couple of years of being a criminal, I wasn't too
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  Speaker 4: much involved with the organised aspect.
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  Speaker 3: But then when I went to jail, it just blew up.
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  Speaker 4: And then I come out and I'm hanging out with
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  Speaker 4: these people that have the same attitudes towards decision-making that
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  Speaker 4: I was.
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  Speaker 3: And then things just got out of hand.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. What was your first offence that you went to
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  Speaker 1: jail for? And, you know, yeah.
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  Speaker 4: My first offence was a home invasion and a shooting. I, um,
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  Speaker 4: This bloke, I was selling drugs at the time and
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  Speaker 4: I sold him, allegedly sold him some drugs and he
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  Speaker 4: sort of gives me up. And so fucking me being
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  Speaker 4: me and the code of honour and all that criminal
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  Speaker 4: world stuff, I felt compelled to do something about him.
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  Speaker 4: So I went back and let off a couple of
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  Speaker 4: shots in the house and fucking his sister ended up
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  Speaker 4: getting shot in the arm.
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  Speaker 3: So, you know, I went there to go and do something, all.
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  Speaker 4: Right, probably not to fight right in the head. And
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  Speaker 4: I've actually let off a couple of shots and I've
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  Speaker 4: hit an innocent person inside the house, which wasn't too good,
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  Speaker 4: which I felt compelled. Look, even though I'm from the
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: criminal world, I did hit an innocent person and I
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: was not happy about that. So I turned myself in.
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  Speaker 4: I pled guilty to it and I ended up getting
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  Speaker 4: nearly four years on the bottom with six and a
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  Speaker 4: half on the top. And yeah, so.
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  Speaker 1: And how old were you then?
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  Speaker 3: I was 21, man.
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  Speaker 4: I was 21, yeah. I went in there and then
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  Speaker 4: so I went into jail. And so I'm not Muslim,
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  Speaker 4: I'm Christian, and I'm an Aussie, but I look a
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  Speaker 4: bit like a Middle Eastern. So I went into jail
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  Speaker 4: and I claimed Aussie. So at the start, until I
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: built my rep up, the Aussies weren't too involved with
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: me because I don't look like that, but I also
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: knew all the Lebos and all the Middle Easterns from
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: Granville and Guildford and all that. So I could mingle
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  Speaker 4: with them and mingle with the Aussies, which was fine.
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  Speaker 4: But I had a bit of problems in there, which
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: everyone does, and problems from the street come in there
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  Speaker 4: and then.
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  Speaker 3: It was just all on. And then so from the
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  Speaker 3: moment I pretty much went into jail.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I'm fascinated by the fact that, you know,
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  Speaker 2: you were on this criminal path and, you know, one
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  Speaker 2: of the basic things about being a criminal is you
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: never plead guilty, you never give yourself in. But it shows,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it was a terrible thing to do and
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  Speaker 2: you've acknowledged that and I appreciate that. But I think
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  Speaker 2: it speaks something to your character that you did have
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  Speaker 2: a conscience about it and then you gave yourself in.
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  Speaker 2: Was that a difficult process?
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  Speaker 4: Well, look, even though I'd done the wrong thing and
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: my intentions were based on my street morals, OK, that
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  Speaker 4: I went in there, I still hit the wrong person
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  Speaker 4: and she didn't deserve to get shot. I don't think
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  Speaker 4: if I didn't have that in me, that responsibility to.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: say, yeah, I'm wrong when I am wrong. I don't
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  Speaker 3: think that I would have ever changed. To have that
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  Speaker 3: into you, to acknowledge that.
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  Speaker 1: I think so.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I don't.
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  Speaker 4: Look, first thing is to acknowledge that you do have
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  Speaker 4: a problem, okay?
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  Speaker 3: At that time, I didn't know that I had a problem.
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  Speaker 4: I just thought, oh, the problem wasn't up to me
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  Speaker 4: to solve or I was just too angry at the
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  Speaker 4: world or, you know, I can't really explain to.
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  Speaker 1: You Yeah, no, and you're young, and you're also young.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, and you're a bit misguided, and
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  Speaker 2: a lot of things are being offered to you, and,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: you know, and I get all that. And so you
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: do this thing, you plead guilty, and then you go inside,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: and which jail were you in, and what was that like?
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: All right, so the first time I get locked up, okay,
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: I go into– we get taken– to Surrey Hills, and
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: I'm at Surrey Hills, like, and I don't, I've never
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: been to jail before, never done juvie or anything like that, so, like,
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: I was on that much drugs that, like, I thought
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: I'd be, like, this is how, look, you think that, look,
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: it's not going to be that bad, because at that time, okay,
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: everyone was just shooting everyone in the area, it was
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: just like, oh, this bloke got shot, this bloke's been kneecapped,
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: this bloke got shot in the gut, it wasn't, to me,
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: it wasn't like a massive thing, and that's just, that's
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: just can, maybe a testament to how how mentally caught
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: up you are in in in the atmosphere in the
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: game where like I'd ran into someone's house and shot
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  Speaker 4: him and I still didn't think that it was that
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  Speaker 4: much of a big deal you know so when I
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: went to the cop shop they're like you're under arrest
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  Speaker 4: you're going to jail I'm like what do you mean
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  Speaker 4: no bail I thought what's going on you know and
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: I get locked up and then they've put me in
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: the lock up and then I'm like man I'm in
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  Speaker 4: a cell where there's like peace and shit on the
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  Speaker 4: corners and And I'm like, and people are screaming all night,
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: the lights on.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: I'm like, what's going on? Anyway, we get to jail,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: which is Silverwater.
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: You get put straight into Darcy back then, which was
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: like a filtering unit. So they'd see if you were
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: coming off drugs, if you had mental health issues, all right,
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: and then to assign.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: You where you needed to go.
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: Okay, so CIG come and seen me and from my affiliations,
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: they said, listen, we can't have you at Silverwater.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: We're going to ship you to Goulburn.
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: So I was locked in the cell for about three weeks, okay,
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: and then they shipped me to Goulburn. And then I
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: walked straight out into the remand yard at Goulburn. But
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: those first couple of weeks, man, people were screaming, mental
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: health patients. I'd get out of the cell to go
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: out to the clinic and I'd walk past one of
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: the doors that were open for one of the mental
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: health patients to go walk for 10 or 15 minutes.
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: And I walked past and there's a bloke on his
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: hands and knees washing his clothes in the shower and
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: he's drinking out of the toilet.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: And I thought, what the fuck? I thought, where am I,
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: you know?
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Where am I?
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: Where am I? And he's screaming, mate. Right. He's screaming
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: all night. Well, we walked out first out, walked out
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: into the yard. Because I was in the remand yard,
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: so it was a mix. And then next door is
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: the Koori yard.
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: And then I've seen a couple of Lebos that I
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: knew from the area in the Muslim yard, a couple
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: of Islanders that I knew from the area in the
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: Islander yard. And they're like, what are you in for?
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: I told them, they're like, five years on the bottom.
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: I was like, oh, no, you know, because I'm on remand.
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: And I didn't know at that time. But, yeah, like,
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: so when I first come out, like, back then it
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: was a bit different. So when I first come out,
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: I saw the Koorie boys just staring at the boys.
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: The Koories were just, like, banging on the fence, just looking,
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: staring at who's in the yard to see who was
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: the weak link, you know what I mean? And then
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: I Like, they would pick some bloke from our yard
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: and go off with him. And there was a bit
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: of tension there, you know. But the boys that knew
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: each other would talk to each other. But the boys
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: that didn't know each other, you would push to the side.
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: So the boys that had earned their respect, they could
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: talk between the yards. But the boys that didn't know anyone,
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: it's not like you couldn't talk between the yards or
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: anything like that. It wasn't like that. It was a
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: bit hectic, you know. Like, there was a couple of punch-ons.
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: My first sentence, there was... a lot of serious incidents.
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: But after 15, 16, after about 15, oh, 15, the
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: jails got more dangerous in the aspect that there was
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: less people with morals or manly morals. So before when
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: you'd have a crack, some people would leave it as
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: a crack, okay?
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: One-on-one.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you would leave it as a crack like,
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: My first three months in jail after going from Goulburn,
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: I got sent to Long Bay, which was in a
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: wing full of like about 25 bikies. And I'd had
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: problems with these bikies, this chapter of bikies that had
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: jumped over to another chapter.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: I had problems with them outside. Anyway, I had a
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: fight in that.
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: Yard, okay, with one of these OMCG members, Outlaw Motorcycle Group, okay?
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: And If it wasn't for one of these Lebanese fellas
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: that was in the yard at the time and that
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: said if anyone jumps him on getting involved, I probably
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: would have got jumped.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: But there was a bloke which he was in on
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: a murder of a lone wolf in, I think, Maroubra.
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: And, mate, he come out and he said no one's
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: touching him. The bloke had his crack one-on-one because I
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: pumped this bloke. Three times I dropped him. And then
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: they wanted us to fight again. And I said to him,
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: he's like, why are you in the shower so you
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: can jump me? I said, I dropped the bloke three times.
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: I said, what, do you want me to knock him
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: out a fourth time? I said, why do you think
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: I'm going out? And then he put his arm around
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: me and told everyone, if anyone's going to touch this bloke,
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: I'm getting involved. And if it wasn't for him, and
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: I spoke to him years later about it, and he goes, man,
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: I stood up for you because you punched on with
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: this bloke when there was 30 of his blokes in
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: the yard.
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: When there's only 120 blokes in the yard and there's
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: a stronghold of 30 members, which was a lot, and associates, okay,
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: if it wasn't for him, I would have got jumped
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: and stabbed.
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: But lucky he had pulled. See, where I didn't have
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: any pull at that time, no one knew who I was,
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: but people knew who he was. And he put his
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: army out and extended it to me and helped me out, which,
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: you know, like after 15, 16, 17, I didn't really
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: see that, man. You know, like I didn't really see that.
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: I'd just seen someone like just people getting jumped, stabbed
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: from behind, all that kind of stuff. It got a
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: bit hectic after 015.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, so you got through your first four years relatively unscathed.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: It wasn't as bad as you thought. You come out,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: but I guess you've had this four years away. You're
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: now 25.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. What was your plan coming out of jail then?
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: Well, my plan to come out of jail was to
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: go and start work and continue my apprenticeship because my
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: dad was a mechanical engineer, okay? He had an engineering
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: firm with about 50, up to 50 blokes working for him, laborers, electricians.
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: mechanical fitters and engineers. So I thought, like, I'll go
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: into that. But my father's attitude had changed. He'd been
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: through a lot. And so first two years, visits were good.
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: And then after that, he'd gone through a separation with
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: his missus, which changed him. And I got out and
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: he wasn't the same person. And so his dreams and
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: aspirations that he told me weren't the same.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: And so we didn't really connect. Like, I found that
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: really hard outside.
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: So I started working, like, I started working doing a
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: bit of form work because my dad wouldn't give me
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: a job.
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: And I started doing that. And that form work coming out,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: it was my first job. That was really hard work, man,
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: you know. Like, that was really hard work.
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: And I wasn't, like, even though I was training, training
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: really hard, it was hard for me to be on
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: that job site every day. And just, like, it took
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: me a while to be able to deal with all
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: the hammers getting hammered and all the loud noises and,
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: And all that kind of stuff and being social on
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: the job site, you know, knowing my way around the
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: job site, all that kind of stuff added to the
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: frustrations of me getting out. So the first couple of weeks,
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: maybe two months, you're happy. It's like you're at an
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: amusement park, you know what I mean? You get out,
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: you've been locked in a cage, all right?
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: And the jail does damage you, but the segregation is
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: the one that damages you the most, okay?
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: So I'd done about maybe eight months segregation my first sentence, so...
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: I'd done maybe about 20% of it in Segro and, like,
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: that did change me. So I come out and I
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: was just, it was hard for me. Like, I had
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: a girlfriend but I still felt weird with her. Like, everything,
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: you know, cuddling and laying in the bed when another
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: person was in the bed with me, it was really
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: weird for me, man, you know. And so I had to, like,
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: and I didn't know why I was feeling weird. So
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: I wasn't that emotionally intelligent at this time and I
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: didn't know why I was feeling weird, why I was
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: feeling frustrated at work.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: I just thought, oh, fucking, this is just shit I'm
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: dealing with.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: And then, like, I had enough. Like, it was too
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: much for me. Shit at home was going on. I
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: wasn't getting along with my dad. Me and him were fighting.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: It was becoming a toxic environment. I was going to
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: work and I was finding it really, really hard for
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: me to get up and go to work. And then
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: I was started spiralling into a bit of depression, man,
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: you know. And then I hit the drugs for a
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: couple of weeks, like two or three weeks.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: Oh, I think I was hitting the coke and I
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: think I was smoking meth and all that stuff for
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: about two and a half, three weeks.
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: And my mate called me from jail and he heard
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: it in my voice. Inside jail, me and him had
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: talked about, you know, going overseas and joining the army.
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: He was a good friend of mine. And he had
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: a really good and really positive impact on me because he.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Was a staunch man. Like, he was a good man.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: He had a good family, okay?
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: He was just in on a manufacturing charge, but he
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: had a great family. His family loved him, you know,
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: like he got brought up in a really good environment.
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: And he sort of knew my problems and knew where
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: I was at. And then when he called me, I
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: told him, look, I fucked up. I've been on the
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: drugs for a couple of weeks. And he told me,
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: go to France, man, you know? And I said, you
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: know what?
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: Fuck, I might.
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: So I went and booked a ticket, and we talked
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: in there about going and joining the army, the French
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: Foreign Legion, all right?
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: And so, like, yeah.
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: And so, like, I'm outside. I don't feel comfortable in
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: the environment that I'm in. I'm fighting with my dad.
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: I feel weird with my missus. I'm feeling a fucking
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: crap at work. Like, I feel I'm feeling attacked. I'm
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: feeling like no one understands me. When I speak, I'm
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: feeling like everyone's, you know, sort of judging me, which
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: no one is.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: It's only me judging myself. Yes.
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: And, and I said, you know what? I can't deal
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: with this. My dad found the ticket and he started
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: laughing at me. He called his mates.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: He's like, look at this bloke. He's booked a ticket
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: to France and he's not even going to get out
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: of the country. But I was under a parole act.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: I wasn't under the crimes act. So I knew I
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: could leave the country if I had a passport. So
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: I pissed off and I left and I went to
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: France for a couple of months. I joined the French
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: foreign Legion, um, I made it to Selectif to go
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: to Obon and continue.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Selectif is the French Foreign Legion selection process, a rigorous
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: multi-week evaluation held entirely in person at recruitment posts in
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: mainland France.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: But while I was over there, so when I went
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: into France, I went there for about two, three weeks, partied,
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: met some chicks, had a good time. I was on Champs-Élysées,
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: that main beautiful street. I met this girl there, so
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: I was just hanging out with this girl. I was
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: having a good time.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: She was showing me the country, and then I went
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: and handed my passport in at the gate. When you
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: hand your passport in at the.
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: Gate, they grab your stuff, they give you new clothes,
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: and you bang you straight into this.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: You go and you sit in a selective room.
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: So I sat in a selective room for about a
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: week until they called my name up, done the medical,
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: then I started doing the training.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: We were doing all that, and it was around Christmas. And.
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: me, I could train really, really hard when I was younger, okay,
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: so during all the training selections, like, I'd done very well,
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: and a couple of the commandos and the generals or whatever,
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: they were, they'd come back from deployment, and they were
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: at this, um, place in Paris where, or the stronghold
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: of where the French Foreign Legion was, but, um, They
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: pulled me out of my bed on Christmas Eve and
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: pulled me down into the bar. So everyone's sleeping. They said, oh,
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: you're straight, Australia, wake up. I said, yeah, yeah, what's
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: going on?
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: They said, come, come, come, come, come.
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: So they took me down to the bar, these blokes, and, man, like,
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: they just had us drinking, man. We drank, and I
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: got fully smashed with these couple of, like, two- and
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: three-star generals of the French Foreign Legion. They were telling
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: me all the stories about war. They were doing these
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: drinking games. They were making me hold chairs up as
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: long as I could in my other arms and putting
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: bets on how long I could hold these chairs up
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: against other selective people. But it was a good eye-opener
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: for me, you know. But I eventually ended up leaving
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: and not going to the selective training. So I'd been
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: out of jail for about four months at this stage.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: I'd been over in France for nearly... six seven weeks
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: and i was still feeling the effects of being institutionalized
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: okay so those problems that i had back home followed
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: me over there there's those mental problems not feeling you
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: know comfortable where i was not being like everything was
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: irritating me because i i i wasn't used to it.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: You know what i mean and then i'm in the army.
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: Getting told when to wake up go to the toilet
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: running the snow, running, and I'm thinking, fuck, am I
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: going to have to train like this in the snow?
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: Am I going to have to wake up at three
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: in the morning?
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking, Farah, maybe I can just go back home
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: and open a company and live happy and make the
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: money there instead of putting my life on the line. Look,
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: and I'm thinking, Farah, look, I've got away from the streets, okay,
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: so I don't die and then I'm going to go
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: to war to die.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: Like, I started.
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: Thinking those kinds of things and I was like, You know,
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: maybe I might go home. So I pulled out for
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: a bit, stayed in France for another four weeks, partied
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: a little bit more, seen a bit more of the country,
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: met up with that girl again.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: And then I eventually came home.
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: And then when I was about the second day, two
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: days before I was about to come home, my dad's
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: mate rang me and he goes, man, I heard what
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: you did, how you took off to go and, you know,
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: just go chase your dream and that.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: And he goes, look, I think that's really good of you.
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: And it shows that, you know, that You are trying
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: to change. And he said to me, look, when you
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: come back, come down to Adelaide and I'll put you
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: on my landfill. So I jumped straight on a plane,
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: went to Adelaide, went down there and my mate was
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: teaching me how to work and teaching me a bit
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: of the machines and teaching me about the trucks and
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: where I place them, where they've got to dump.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: And all that kind of stuff. So I was running
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: that landslide for him. And he put a lot of
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: effort into me, you know. But at that time, I
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: still didn't have the emotional intelligence and the intelligence I
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: have now and the willpower and the determination and discipline
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: to actually to change. Like I wanted to change, but
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: I didn't know how to. And so I ended up
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: coming back to Sydney. and I ended up getting picked
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: up for a home invasion which I spent two and
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: a half years in after I come back to Sydney
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: during those three months I've been picked up for a
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: home invasion I've gone to jail I spent 24 26
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: months on on remand okay and Then on the ninth
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: day of trial, the victim said to the judge, she goes,
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: that's not the bloke that was, the man said to
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: the judge, that's not the bloke that was in my
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: house with the gun.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: Like I went to.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: Trial on a six foot two fat black Islander saying
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: that I was holding a gun, which, which like I
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: got picked up in a car a couple of hours
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: later that was seen leaving the scene.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: Okay. And I'm a fool. dressed in different clothes, different everything,
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: different appearance, wasn't picked out of the lineup. But because
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: I had a history for gun crime and for, because
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: my last crime was a.
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: Home invasion, they put a tendency coincidence act on me,
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: which made a presumption against bail, which they're saying because
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: I'd done this crime like this before that I'd done
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: this one, which was, and.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: I couldn't get bail because I was still on parole.
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: Plus this charge, it was a presumption against innocence for bail,
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: which it was like, man, it was very hard then.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: And let me, I've got to ask the obvious question.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Did you do it? No, no, no.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: No, I didn't do that. No, no, I didn't do that.
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: And so in retrospect, me being locked up for a
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: crime that I didn't do, yeah, made me really.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: Bitter inside, OK? Yeah.
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: It made me really bitter and it made me really,
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: really hate authority, okay? And it made me, I come
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: out of that, like, I come out of that really angry, man.
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: So I got out and I was pissed off, you know?
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: So they just, so it was like 26 months. I
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: go to trial and the judge goes to me during,
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: under these circumstances, my solicitor goes to me, under these circumstances,
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: you know, look, if you go ahead with this and
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: you are found guilty, He goes to me, you're going
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: to do at least.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: 10 on the bottom.
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: So I would have got, like, maybe a 14 with
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: a 10 or maybe, you know, 14 with a 9
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: on the bottom for this. And I was like, fucking,
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: I didn't do it. I'm not pleading guilty to something
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: that I haven't done, you know what I mean? Anyway,
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: I had James Trevelyan at the time, and he was
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: a good solicitor, the man James Trevelyan. And I had
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: Sophie Toomey as– he was a barrister, and I had
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: Sophie Toomey as my solicitor.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: She was pretty good. And then it's time for the
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: victim to give his testimony and he gets up on
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: the stand and then there's a recess and then James
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: comes down and says to me, I've never seen this
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: before happen in my life. He goes, I've never seen
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: it before. I said, what happened?
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: He goes, the victim just walked up to the judge,
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: all right, because there was a translator because he was
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: an Asian.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: Bloke and he come up and he goes, with the translator.
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: The translator goes, Your Honour, the victim's just told me
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: that the bloke in the dock isn't the bloke that
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: went into the house with the gun.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: And the judge goes, Oh, whoa, what do you mean?
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: He goes, Well, he's telling me that that bloke that's
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: in the dock is not the person that came into
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: the house.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: He was fat and he was an islander.
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: Anyway, because this bloke's son-in-law was an islander as well.
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: So it's not like he couldn't, he didn't know what
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: was going on or whatever. Okay, so Just because of
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: my history, I've been picked, and because of my previous crimes,
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: I've had to go to jail for two and a
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: half years, then face the stress of going to trial, okay,
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: and possibly being found guilty for a crime that I
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: haven't committed.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: It was a lot of stress, man. Okay, so that
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: sentence was very, very hard on me. Very, very hard
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: on me.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: And that was just a remand for two and a
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: half years while you waited for the trial to happen.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: So you're out free again, but you're bitter. You're angry
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: about the system.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: And you've also had more time to associate with more
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: guys in jail who are probably feeling the same way,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: and you start to build a brotherhood and a network
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: of criminal associates.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Who were they?
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: Look, I can't really name any names. A lot of
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: them are dead now.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: Look, I can't tell you, look, I was hanging out
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: with blokes from a predominantly Middle Eastern family, okay, from
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: the area, all right? I was hanging out with, which they,
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: all right? And that opened me up because I could
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: go and speak to the Australian crews that were doing
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: things that wouldn't necessarily do things with these people, but
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: they would do things with me. So I could make
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: the connection there, and that's where I used to do
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: very well, which I could network like that. So I'd
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: grown up here as an Aussie, but I knew all
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: the Lebos and all their networks because I grew up
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: with them. And then I knew all the other crews
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: that were all in the other Aussie areas, which were
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: doing big things, but they would never deal with these
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: types of people.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: So I used to link them up, and that's where
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: I'd done all right. Yes.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: That's where I done all right. And because of my
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: performance in jail, I could bang. I was a very
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: good fighter, okay? And I never really, look, I never
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: really jumped too many people or done any shit goes
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: like that.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: So I didn't have a bad reputation.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: I always had a good reputation of keeping my word
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: and being fair. So I was a person that some
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: people would deal with. And then, so I've come out
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: dealing with these types of people and then, Yeah, like
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: it was just, I was even more damaged because that sentence,
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: I'd done even more Segro, okay, on top. So I spent,
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: I think, maybe six months in segregation at Lifco. Yeah,
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: so what happened there, I'll tell you about that. Okay,
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: so I'm in segregation at Lifco, all right, and they
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: put me in a wing where I'm not supposed to be, okay.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: So Lifco's all segregated.
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: Anyway, they come to me, all right, because I had
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: big problems with certain Islander groups in jail. I was
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: on my file that had been said not to be
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: housed with, like I hadn't been housed with these certain
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: types of gangs. And they put me in a wing
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: with pretty much people that I'd had big problems with
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: their friends. Anyway, the next day they come, they realise
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: they made a mistake and they've come to pull me
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: out of my cell and take me to Sedgrove. But
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: I didn't know why I was not supposed to be there.
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: I knew why I was not supposed to be there,
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: but I didn't know why the officers were coming to
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: grab me to take me to Sedgrove.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: Anyway, so I've jacked up. All right.
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: And said, no, I'm going to get gassed. You've got
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: to drag me up because it looks bad, me getting
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: taken out of the wing. I'm like, what's going on?
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: So anyway, they've convinced me to calm down and they've
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: put me in Sedgrove. And I kept telling them, listen, like,
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: I've got enemies in that wing. Don't leave my stuff there.
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: I've got my books. I've got all my family's addresses.
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: I've got everything like that. Anyway, after about a week
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: of me jacking up and going off, they come and
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: they bring down my stuff. And this prison officer comes
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: down and he hands this piece of paper out to me.
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: It looks like it has all chemical formulas on it
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: and all these kinds of things on it. And I said,
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: what's going on here? And he goes, is this yours?
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: I said, man, I've been asking for one whole week, yeah,
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: for you guys to get my property out of that
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: cell and bring it to me. And he's handed me
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: this piece of paper. He's asking me about this piece
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: of paper, which from now I found out it had
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: chemical formulas to make certain types of explosives, okay? Anyway,
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: from this, they slapped the Terrorism Act 2017.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: On me, yeah? All right?
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: They said that. I was the holder of this piece
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: of paper that had chemical compounds to make certain types
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: of explosives and remote-controlled detonators and all these kinds of stuff.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: And then they slapped me with it. So I'm in
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: jail for a crime that I didn't commit, okay? And
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: then I've been slapped with the Terrorism Act, all right?
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: And then they've told me that I'm under investigation, yeah,
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: to whether or not that they slapped this act on me.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: And if they put the act on me, it's another sentence...
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: without conviction, yeah, a sentence of three to seven years
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: that they leave me incarcerated for. And I told them, well,
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm not even Muslim.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: And that wasn't your piece of paper, let's be clear.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: No, no, that wasn't my piece of paper. They bring
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: down my stuff that had been in someone's cell for
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: over a week, okay? I said to them, listen, how
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: many people have gone in and out of that cell?
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: I said, since that I... Anyway, so counter-terrorism done, they're
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: all investigations, they printed the paper. But what looked bad.
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: is i'd come from silverwater and i was cellmates with
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: with measured hamsey bassam hamsey's brother for about nearly six
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: months so i'd come from that cell gone to lift
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: go yeah so they started questioning me asking me was
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: that piece of paper for someone was i carrying it
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: for some and i told them the piece of paper
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: is not mine i'm not involved in anything like that
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: like i want to make money i said but anything
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: to do with my country i said i love my
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: country i said if you listen to my phone calls
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: on the I'm a patriot, you know? I said, I
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: haven't got all these problems inside jail and all these
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: kinds of stuff because I'm trying to fight.
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: For the other side. I said, I'm on our side,
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: you know?
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: I said, I'm not about committing any terrorism acts or
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: anything like that.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: So I had that stress of that.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: If I could just interrupt for a minute, because, I mean,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: the Hamseys were obviously notorious. They were part of the
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: Brothers for Life gang in New South Wales. You're obviously
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: being judged by the company you're keeping at this point.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And look, when they do an investigation,
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: they go through everything. So they would have been watching
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: the cameras, who I would have been associating with in
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: that wing, you know what I mean? Any activity that
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: would have been going on. Look, I was friends with
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: the Hamseys just like everyone else was friends with them
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: in the area. Okay, we grew up with each other,
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: you know, just like I grew up with all the
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: other predominantly Middle Eastern crime families. We all grew up
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: with them in the area or we all met them
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: in jail while we were in jail. And I just said,
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: that's all. You know, that's all it is. And yeah,
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: so look, me being film mates with him probably didn't
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: make things too much easier on myself. But then when
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: I got out, like, I thought I had a lot
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: of heat on me, man, from that. And I didn't
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: last too long.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: That's the end of part one of Kyle Madden's story.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: In the second part, he descends deeper into a crime
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: scene that's becoming darker and more dangerous.
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: I didn't expect to live, yeah. So, like, when you're
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: caught up in that thing and I'd lost so many people,
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: I'd just seen them, like, I was putting on the news, man,
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: and people just dying. I knew every single week. And
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: you're just like, well, when am I next?
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: But then, in the depths of tragedy and depression, he
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: starts to envision another life.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: Like, what have I become? Like, I've become a failure.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: I'm like, look at this. And then, like, I'm like,
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: I don't fucking really have, I don't really have anything
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: from my life but pain. I was like, all.
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: I've done these last 15 years 14 years is causing
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: myself pain.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: That's all I've done. And I've destroyed every relationship that
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: I've had due to my own actions. And I thought, bro,
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: you're the problem, mate.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: That's when Kyle Madden returns in part two. If you
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: want to report a crime, please call Crime Stoppers on
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: 1800 333 000 or you can contact me on adamshanwriter
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: at gmail.com.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: This is Adam Shan for Real Crime. Thanks for listening.
• 42:15
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• 42:19
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• 42:20
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• 42:23
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• 42:25
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• 42:29
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