Latest / Skin Anarchy / Dr Lara Devgan, Nationally acclaimed Plastic Surgeon and leader in medicine, Interview

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Dr Lara Devgan, Nationally acclaimed Plastic Surgeon and leader in medicine, Interview · Skin Anarchy

0:01
SPEAKER_00: The level of four has arrived.
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SPEAKER_00: The force is held gathered.
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SPEAKER_00: Adventure with your friends of the fourth layer co-op with cross play across the correction of all platforms.
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SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the four.
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SPEAKER_00: Available now, rated and premature.
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SPEAKER_00: Have the banner or visit this episodes page to learn more.
0:34
SPEAKER_03: Hi guys, welcome back to Scoot Care Anarchy.
0:36
SPEAKER_03: This is your host, Ecta.
0:38
SPEAKER_03: Today is a very special episode, actually.
0:41
SPEAKER_03: I haven't been so excited about interviewing somebody for a very long time.
0:46
SPEAKER_03: And you know, there's not enough words I can say that uh do justice to all of the achievements and accolades that our guest has received in her career.
0:57
SPEAKER_03: Um so let me tell you a little bit about Dr.
0:59
SPEAKER_03: Lara Davegen.
1:01
SPEAKER_03: Um she's here with us today.
1:02
SPEAKER_03: Dr.
1:02
SPEAKER_03: Davegen is a plastic surgeon, um, and she has been trained at Yale, Johns Hopkins, and Columbia.
1:10
SPEAKER_03: She is has been recognized as um one of the top 3% of all plastic surgeons nationwide.
1:18
SPEAKER_03: Um she's also the medical expert for ABC News and an editorial consultant for The Lancet.
1:25
SPEAKER_03: Um, she's a nationally and internationally invited lecturer on surgical topics and truly, truly a leader in her field.
1:32
SPEAKER_03: And so um I couldn't think of a better person to um come onto our show and tell us about not only skin health and dermatology, but her also her amazing celebrity favorite line that has been used by names like King Kim Kardashian and amongst others.
1:51
SPEAKER_03: So welcome, Dr.
1:53
SPEAKER_03: Davein.
1:53
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for making the time for us.
1:56
SPEAKER_03: We are so humbled and honored to host you today.
2:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, I am actually very, very excited that you're here because I have a lot of um questions for you to kind of clear the air about things I really don't know about.
2:10
SPEAKER_03: So, can you start by telling us about yourself and your education and career history and everything like that?
2:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, I am a plastic surgeon in New York City and the founder and CEO of um a luxury medical grade skincare line called Dr.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: Devigan Scientific Beauty.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: And those are kind of my two dueling passions in terms of my career.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, I got to this point through a series of uh, you know, educational steps and hard work and some serendipity along the way.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: And um, I'm so happy to be here.
2:50
SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's yeah, no, I I was looking at your line and I was like, this is amazing.
2:55
SPEAKER_03: What you know, it's interesting to me when someone like you comes out with um a skincare line or or a product because it's like there, I just imagine my head like there must be so much research and like knowledge behind this, you know what I mean?
3:07
SPEAKER_03: So it's like very, very interesting.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I think um ever since I was a kid, I was interested in science.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: And um, I did my undergrad at Yale and at that time worked in some biochemistry labs.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, at that time studying um the flagellar export apparatus, which is basically a way a cell determines its terminal pathway.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: And that really got me interested in the concept of regenerative medicine.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, I then went to medical school at Johns Hopkins, where um I had the opportunity to train with some of the most brilliant minds in plastic surgery, um, and then completed my residency and fellowship training at Columbia and Cornell New York Presbyterian Hospital.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: And um, along the way, I have been doing clinical research, bench research, um, kind of basic science research on all aspects of health and medicine and wellness.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: And in recent years, I've focused um really exclusively on aesthetics.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: So my practice is a plastic surgery practice that focuses on cosmetic and reconstructive plastic surgery.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: About half of it is surgical and half is non-surgical.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: And the goal in terms of integrating science and my background into the practice is I really want to be fully vertically integrated.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: So whether you are thinking about a full major surgery like a facelift or breast augmentation, or you just want, you know, a serum that's going to make your complexion a little bit clearer, or anything in between injectables, botox, lasers, microneedling, you know, I want to be able to be at the cutting edge of the most modern form of aesthetic medicine.
4:51
SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
4:52
SPEAKER_03: And that's I love that that you're really trying to stay up to date with everything.
4:57
SPEAKER_03: And you, you know what I mean, you want to be like in the forefront of all of the research.
5:02
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's so important right now because um, you know, after talking to everybody that's kind of non-medical with the their background in terms of the skincare industry and stuff, it's it's like, I don't know, the research aspect is really lacking, you know what I mean?
5:18
SPEAKER_03: So it's it's kind of disheartening when they talk to um.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, also you know, I do wonder about the clinical correlations between, you know, a boardroom where someone makes a marketing decision and what's actually happening with the real health and beauty and skin of actual men and women.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: And so it, you know, I find that it really helps me to design better products and think more carefully about the ingredients that are needed and the regimens that work by hearing from my patients.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: So every day I'll talk to 10, 20, 30 people who are here to see me for plastic surgery or injectables, but who are also using my products.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like a little focus group of what's actually happening with real people so I can really see their results.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that that's truly the future of beauty.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: We have been, you know, beauty, beauty like fashion goes through fads, but unlike fashion, skincare is medicine.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: It's not some makeup, you know, the skin is the largest organ in your body.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: And asking an influencer what kind of cream to put on your skin is sort of like asking, you know, your favorite fashionista what you should take for your blood pressure.
6:41
SPEAKER_03: Yes, exactly.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: It's a complicated answer.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: And of course, everyone has an opinion and everyone's certainly entitled to it.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: But um, but I do think it's very helpful to have a little bit of medical background when it comes to stuff like that.
6:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think it's extremely important.
6:58
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think dermatology is something that is keeps getting skipped over, and especially like, you know, yum, your specialty is plastic surgery.
7:07
SPEAKER_03: But, you know, when I think about just the dermatological research that's out there, like we can't ignore an entire, you know, library of information, you know what I mean?
7:18
SPEAKER_03: And then also ignore the fact that we need to add to that before we keep coming out with other products that are pretty much the same and saturating a market.
7:26
SPEAKER_03: So, how do you feel about that?
7:29
SPEAKER_01: I think that it's really important to have evidence and science as the basis for decisions that we're making about um health and skin.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: And the skin is a complex organ because while it is really part of medicine, it's the outward-facing part of our bodies.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: And so people equate it with beauty.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: And so that is where it can get kind of confusing.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the big trends and fads we've seen recently is the movement toward, you know, all organic or clean beauty, or, you know, beauty is really subject to many buzzwords that don't necessarily make sense when you think about what they really mean.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think the future of beauty is certainly free of harmful agents and free of preservatives and things like that.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: But I think the future of beauty is using rational, evidence-based ingredients like, you know, vitamin C, vitamin B, vitamin E, ferulic acid, retinol, bacuchiol, mixed molecular weight, hyaluronic acid, niacinamide, you know, there are things that can literally transform your skin that are still safe and over-the-counter and easy to use, and they still look nice on your bathroom vanity, and they're still fun to buy, but they actually work.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: And so my focus is really to cut through some of the noise in the space.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the noise is filled with marketing and packaging and colors and texture and stuff that doesn't really make a difference.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm trying to cut through the noise and get to the point where people are using beautiful, luxurious products that actually work for their skin.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: And these are the things that I use on my most discerning clientele.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: And those can be anyone from you know, private citizens to people you see on the cover of magazines all the time.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, what they're what they're actually doing to have clear skin is not using coconut oil and shea butter that is packaged at someone's kitchen table, you know, in a in a totally quote, organic way with no preservatives.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: What they're actually using is a combination of medical-grade skincare products.
9:42
SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
9:43
SPEAKER_03: And it's interesting you bring that up because I was talking to the founder of Formula Botanica and she was talking about how, you know, this idea of hygiene really needs to be talked about more in terms of skincare development, because there are a lot of brands that started in a kitchen.
9:58
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
9:58
SPEAKER_03: I think like, you know, you hear these stories of someone was bored and then they decided, hey, I'm gonna whip these ingredients together.
10:06
SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, there's a lot of indie brands, I think, out there that are kind of just running out of a, you know, a house or someone's kitchen, but it's like you can't compare that to something like obviously like what you formulated here, right?
10:18
SPEAKER_03: With your Sun Caroline.
10:19
SPEAKER_03: It's like you can't compare just like is apples or oranges.
10:23
SPEAKER_03: That's my my point, you know.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I I totally respect the hustle of that, and I think that that's cool.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: And I think that the, you know, if you look back hundreds of years, that's where the history of a lot of things um is developed.
10:39
SPEAKER_01: And certainly if you find something that works for you in your kitchen or, you know, with home ingredients, I think that can be amazing.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think of that more along the lines of cosmetics than um than along the lines of skincare.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, and things that I think we do need to be a little bit more aware of are the idea that you need to have preservatives in products in order to not have them laden with bacteria and rife with contamination.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: And um, if you're going to scale a product and put it on shelves in, you know, a Sephora or an indie retailer, um, you need to make sure that there's consistency with every single batch.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: And so in 2020, that means that a machine is helping the dosage to be precise.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: It's not somebody taking a tablespoon of this and a teaspoon of that.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think that there's certainly a role for all kinds of things.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: And the best thing about beauty in 2020 and beyond is that it's inclusive and your routine can be anything that you want it to be.
11:45
SPEAKER_03: Right.
11:46
SPEAKER_02: Right.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: But you know, the this is this is the way I see it.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: And certainly my perspective is biased and it's colored by my life, which is about science and medicine.
11:59
SPEAKER_03: Right.
11:59
SPEAKER_03: Right.
12:00
SPEAKER_03: It makes sense.
12:01
SPEAKER_03: I mean, uh, I do have a question though.
12:03
SPEAKER_03: What do you think about the use of like Ayurvedic ingredients?
12:06
SPEAKER_03: Because I know that, you know, um, you have that South Asian cultural background, right?
12:11
SPEAKER_03: So like I'm just curious from your perspective, like, what do you think about that?
12:16
SPEAKER_03: Ayurveda skincare.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: I think that it can be um amazing for people's quality of life.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: And if something gives you pleasure and it makes your day a little bit more enjoyable than and it's not harming you, then I think there's no reason to avoid it.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you put an Ayurvedic product head to head in a clinical trial against, you know, a combination of retinol, hyaluronic, and vitamin C, which one will win?
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I think that the medical grade one, you know, is potentially more powerful.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: But in the same way that you can't have a diet composed of broccoli alone, there is a roll for ice cream here and there and cookies and you know, and a piece of salmon.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there's a there human beings are complex creatures, and we all have appetites for many different kinds of things.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that Ayurvedic ingredients have a long history of helping people with relaxation, sleep, calmness, you know, soothing.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: And just as like a little thought exercise, I will tell you that some of the most important developments in modern medicine came from kind of um anecdotal and folklore ish origins.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: Like for example, thousands of years ago, when people had a headache, they would chew the bark of a certain tree and it would kind of make them feel better.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: And if you think about that today, it sounds crazy, but that led to the molecular characterization of acetaminiphen, which is more popularly known as Tylenol.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: And um, and so the origins of chewing tree bark sound silly, but sometimes it's the phenomenon of a canary in a coal mine, where if the population is doing something, maybe it just hasn't been described or discovered yet.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: And maybe we need to look a little bit more carefully at, you know, what is in the tree bark?
14:13
SPEAKER_01: Are we going to hundreds of years later characterize and isolate and develop acetaminophen and sell billions of Tylenols all around the world?
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Right.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: So I think um, you know, I guess what I would say to your listeners is that science is not a fixed moment in time.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Science is a perspective, and having um a science-backed mindset for looking at skincare just means that you're somebody who cares about what the evidence shows and you're limitlessly curious.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: So your mind can change over time, and you always have to be open to new ideas.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: So I think it would be wrong to wholesale dismiss anything because some of the things I learned in medical school 10 years ago aren't even true anymore.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: And in another 10 years, some more things won't be true, and we don't even know which ones.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: So we need to have kind of a broad critical thinking way of assessing the forefront in skincare.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, to me, I think about these issues every day with regard to not just skincare, but also with things like Botox and fillers, injectables, which lasers are the best, you know, what's the best way to perform a breast augmentation, which types of implants are the safest?
15:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, there are a million questions to ask and answer in this field.
15:34
SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
15:35
SPEAKER_03: No, that that's a great point.
15:37
SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, honestly, I was talking about this the other day with somebody about the Ayurveda thing and and kind of going on to um what you said and adding to your point of, you know, I think it's more of a uh a question of dosing more than anything else, because I think that, you know, you can extract and have a natural extract of something.
15:55
SPEAKER_03: And you know, I've done my own, I've done research before.
15:58
SPEAKER_03: I published a paper on, you know, natural extracts and their um, you know, work against mycobacterium.
16:04
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, they have this, it was this amazing response that I saw, but at the end of the day, it was a very careful extraction.
16:12
SPEAKER_03: You know, there was this thing that, you know, I knew exactly how much of what I was putting onto the petri dish.
16:18
SPEAKER_03: And I mean, it wasn't like a um, oh, let me just throw some aloe vera on there or eucalyptus on there or mint.
16:23
SPEAKER_03: It was very, very measured out.
16:26
SPEAKER_03: So I think, in my opinion, I I would urge companies to go into that direction.
16:31
SPEAKER_03: I mean, do you agree with that?
16:33
SPEAKER_03: Like in terms of like like figuring out a way to dose this stuff, right?
16:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think in in FDA labs in the United States, um, there's pretty precise dosage currently.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yes, it's very important, you know, uh a given dose can totally change how any substance behaves.
16:55
SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
16:56
SPEAKER_03: Um, so let me ask you actually one of the biggest questions that comes up in terms of skincare.
17:02
SPEAKER_03: Does uh do skincare devices actually promote lymphatic drainage in the face?
17:08
SPEAKER_03: Because there's a lot of claims right now about that, and there's a lot of people that are on e either side, you know, and I and I'm really confused because you know, theoretically it makes sense.
17:18
SPEAKER_03: You know, we have one-way valves in the uh lymph vessels, right?
17:22
SPEAKER_03: But it's like I don't know how much we're doing when we're pressing up against our skin with a roller or some sort of a device.
17:28
SPEAKER_03: So what do you think about that?
17:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the body is like a self-cleaning oven.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: If you're healthy and you don't have major medical problems, you've not had prior surgery and scars, and you don't have a lymphatic drainage issue, there should be no issue with your lymph system.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: You know, the lymph system or the lymphatic drainage system runs in parallel to the arterial and venous systems, and it basically allows fluids and um substances from your interstitial fluid to um drain and get recirculated into your um into your body.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: And that's what helps you if you have a really salty slice of pizza, and the next day you wake up puffy, your lymphatic system will draw those water molecules out of your interstitial fluid and clear them and take them into your renal system, and you'll excrete them as urine.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I think that pressure will increase the amount of drainage on the face.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: And so that's the concept of after surgery wearing a compression garment or doing a lymphatic drainage massage or rolling a device on your face to cause lymphatic drainage.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: But I would say that generally speaking, it's not necessary.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: If it makes you happy and you want to improve swelling in the acute period, like you have a party the next day and you want to look good for it, you know, certainly one way to reduce swelling is to add pressure.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: And that can be with your hands, with a device, or with a compression garment.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that um lymphatic drainage is not a necessary part of a regular routine for most healthy people.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: So it's something that's optional.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like a deep tissue massage or you know, a steam room where it can be nice and pleasant, and some people love it, and you know, why not?
19:26
SPEAKER_01: But it's not something that I would lose sleep over, and it's not something that I would say people need to add into their routine.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Now there are some categories of patients, like for example, um, patients who've had cancer operations where lymphatic channels are actually literally um obliterated and denuded and cut.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: And those patients do have different requirements for things that can help with lymphatic drainage because they don't have a completely normal physiology.
19:55
SPEAKER_03: Right.
19:55
SPEAKER_03: That makes sense.
19:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:57
SPEAKER_03: Um, and and I think that that's important to differentiate, like in terms of the marketing aspect, because I I once again I blame marketing.
20:06
SPEAKER_03: Like I just think there's a lot of claims.
20:09
SPEAKER_03: But um, okay, so another question for you is about the use of anything.
20:14
SPEAKER_03: Can anything really substitute for injectables?
20:17
SPEAKER_03: Because I know some products are like, oh, Botox in a bottle, or you know, all this um these claims.
20:23
SPEAKER_03: So what do you think about that?
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, that is a big marketing claim.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: That is a big one, and that is probably a questionable one.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: So the short answer is no, and the longer answer is everything has a role.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, Botox literally is blocking your um, it's it's neuromodulating your muscles, so it's literally blocking muscle activity um at the level of your tissue below the dermis.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: So that's not something that's possible to achieve with any product.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: Um and, you know, I don't think that that's a correct claim.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: I will say that with synergistic use of skincare products, you can you can remodel the skin, you can improve skin texture, you can get rid of fine lines, you can reduce the depth of furrows, you can build collagen.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: So those things can give you similar endpoints as to um what you can get with lasers or Botox or fillers.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, but they're not as powerful, they're not as fast, and they're not the same, it's not the same mechanism, it's not the same endpoint.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, that being said, you know, imagine somebody owns a classic car from 1950 and they meticulously take care of it every day and polish it and wax it and all the stuff that people who love cars do.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, that car is going to age really well, and it's much less likely to need a major overhaul 50 years later down the road, you know.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Opposed to someone who just drives their car into the ground, you know, that that's that's a person where they're going to need to take the car to the body shop every decade and kind of completely rebuild it.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: And so in the same way, while there is no substitute for injectables, um, you can defer and delay the need for more serious interventions if you're very good about your skincare from an early age and you have a preventative mindset.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of kind of like the quick and dirty, I would say that no skincare product is as good as an injectable, and no injectable is as good as a surgery.
22:37
SPEAKER_03: Also, can I say you just put me on a major guild trip because my car is overdue for an oil change?
22:42
SPEAKER_01: I know, right?
22:43
SPEAKER_01: It's like it's painful.
22:46
SPEAKER_03: They're thinking, I'm like, oh crap, I need to go to the dealership.
22:50
SPEAKER_03: But no, I I completely agree with you.
22:52
SPEAKER_03: And I think um it's interesting that you, you know, I think you for explaining that so well.
22:56
SPEAKER_03: Um, because I think there's a lot of um brands right now that are coming up with this idea of, you know, we have this new innovative technology that offers transdermal delivery.
23:06
SPEAKER_03: And when I think about transdermal delivery, I'm like, don't you need to put an actual needle into someone's, you know what I mean?
23:14
SPEAKER_03: Like go in and you know, put something into the dermal area, right?
23:18
SPEAKER_03: Of skin.
23:18
SPEAKER_03: Am I correct when I say that?
23:19
SPEAKER_01: Or well, so yes and no.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can it depending on the molecular weight of a given molecule, if it's small enough, it can pass through the little micro channels in the skin and it can go deep into the dermis.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: So, for example, I'll just talk about our hyaluronic um serum because this is like very relevant to this topic.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, we use a mixed molecular weight hyaluronic because the large fragments of hyaluronic, like a whole hyaluronic acid molecule, is too big to penetrate into the dermis.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: And so it rests on top of the skin.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, by also using tiny fragments of fractionated hyaluronic, they're basically diced and sliced so small that they can go into the micropores and channels of the skin and hydrate from within while the larger fragments rest on top.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: So I think that it is possible, you know, dermal penetration is really just a question of um size of a molecule and the charge on the molecule.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: But if you um if you account for those two things, I think that um it's basically fluid diffusion, a little bit more complicated than simple diffusion, but um but um basically it's it is possible to have skincare products that penetrate the dermis.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't that still doesn't mean they're the same as um Botox.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: They like literally do totally different things, but um but I also think we need to get out of the mindset of interventions being at war with each other.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, and I I guess I guess I guess this is something that comes from my role where on a daily basis there's some people I'm treating with skincare products, then lasers, then microneedling, microinfusion microneedling, Botox, fillers, you know, fat grafting, and then full major open surgery.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that all of those interventions represent different things that are possible or helpful given your anatomic characteristics and your desires.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: So it's not like you have to have a war of injectables versus skincare.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: The most beautiful results and the people who have the most enviable complexions are doing both.
25:43
SPEAKER_03: Um that makes sense.
25:45
SPEAKER_03: I um I think there's a place for everything.
25:47
SPEAKER_03: That's what you're saying, right?
25:48
SPEAKER_03: It's like there's a place for everything.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: And also, and people should never be made to feel like shamed for what they're comfortable with.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: If you just cannot stand the idea of putting a needle in your face, which is completely understandable, you don't have to do that.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: You can still get a nice improvement in your skin quality with a good selection of skincare products, and um, and I think that that's okay.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: But if you do want to do some of that stuff, you know, it'll probably be a little bit better.
26:16
SPEAKER_03: Right.
26:17
SPEAKER_03: No, that makes sense.
26:18
SPEAKER_03: So I want to shift focus because I really want to talk about your skincare line and talk about your um just your inspiration behind um, you know, creating it and what was your focus when you were creating it.
26:29
SPEAKER_03: Can you tell us all about that um kind of brand journey?
26:33
SPEAKER_01: Yes, of course.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I initially started my skincare line just merely to have an extension of a better way to care for my in-office patients.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, so my um New York City private practice deals with um surgical and non-surgical concerns.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: But as I mentioned, everybody needs to do something for their skin.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: So my my passion was really to create the ultimate set of products that I myself would use, not only as a woman who cares about her skin and beauty and fashion, but also as a board-certified plastic surgeon and medical expert.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, to me, I'm I'm always busy, I'm on the go.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: I want an edited selection of products that are going to really work and um and deliver results.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: So if I were to succinctly summarize my goal, it was to create the best in luxury medical grade skincare, where you know, this is what you need, this is what's going to help.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: I did I I had absolutely zero focus on, you know, sexiness and marketing, and you know, there's no like dead sea salt, and there's no caviar, and there's no like truffle seed oil from you know, from that, you know, amazing Italian seaside location.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: There's nothing that there's none of the hook that I always found.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's fun, and I'm I've certainly like in uh tried all those products and loved them at different points in my life, but like I have a slight feeling of eye roll when I see some of that stuff where where I I just want I just want the business, like I want to cut to what works, and then the part of my brain that has that appetite, I devote to you know fashion and makeup and hair stuff and other stuff.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: So so that was the the inspiration for the line, and um it really became something bigger than itself, you know.
28:39
SPEAKER_01: I think we certainly had some a few key high-profile press mentions um from people who I'm so incredibly indebted to, like, you know, Kim Kardashian tweeted a facial with our um hyaluronic and vitamin C and peptide eye cream, and you know, Bella Hadid Instagrammed our mask, and Jennifer Aniston wore our lip plump on the cover of Instyle.
29:06
SPEAKER_01: And you know, those were the three three of the really key media moments for me that I'm still in shock that they even happen.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: Um and I'm yeah, well, I mean I'm so indebted.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm so indebted to those people, but it basically caused a snowballing.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: So um, in addition to those things, we had you know, one patient tell a friend or tell a sister or um tell a coworker, and then it just kind of snowballed, and we've um received offers from investors.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: We um are having um you know inquiries and meetings on a weekly basis.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: Um right now we are sold in um Sephora and Violet Gray, and we're launching at Neta Porte next month.
29:58
SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's so awesome! I want to congratulate you on the immense success.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been happening.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like very slow and then it happens all of a sudden.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, first and foremost, we're trying to stay a direct-to-consumer brand, even though these other retailers are amazing and super helpful in creating some exposure and knowledge.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: Um with with with medical grade products, the difficult thing is that they require a lot more hand holding.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: There are so many more questions.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: There's so much more, um, you know, as you know, when you start a retinol, your skin gets a little peely, it can get a little bit red, there's a little acclimation period, you can go through purging.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: And so um, we have really mastered the art of leaning into our customers.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: So we're extremely hands-on, and we try to really talk people through an individualized and customized routine.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where our success has been, in addition to using kind of the highest quality and highest strength medical grade ingredients that are over the counter.
31:06
SPEAKER_03: Right.
31:07
SPEAKER_03: And I I'm actually curious um, because you know, obviously when a doctor does something, it's always I find that there's a perfectionist aspect to it.
31:17
SPEAKER_03: Um and so I'm wondering how long it took you to come to the perfect formulations for your products.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been thinking about these things for a really long time, and I've been dabbling in um formulations for uh for ages, but um, you know, for example, um our lip plumper, the first run of our lip plumper that we ever did was a run of, I think it was a run of like one or two thousand lip plumpers.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: And that felt like the most enormous number in the world to me.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: And um, with that formulation, um, we were experimenting with different percentages and levels of um niacin, which gives you a little pink flushing of the lip, ceramides, which soften the lip, and hyuronic, which plump the lip.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: And um we changed and iterated those to create the maximum plumping without too much tingling and irritation of the lips.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: So to create kind of this magical formulation and kind of each time we would do a run, we would we would think about that again.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: And now we're at the point where we're on the verge of doing a run of um 500,000 lip plumpers.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the formula I feel really good about.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: It's like really fully mastered now.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, but that process was um was kind of continual.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something, I think that's something that I think about not only in my daily life, but also with um my skincare line and really any decision I make in my medical practice, which is that you can't ever be stagnant.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: You always have to be changing and iterating and listening to people's feedback.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, when you have to figure out like, is this working for people?
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Are people saying that it's um irritating them, or people saying that they want something that's even stronger?
33:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it's a long process.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: But um I work with FDA-approved labs in the United States and um uh some amazing chemists that um that are really like leaning into the basic science of stuff.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: When you're formulating a product, um, once you have your perfect formulation, you obviously test it yourself.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: We have focus groups of people to test it.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: Like we did clinical trials for the lip plumper where um we had um, I think about 300 men and women in New York try the product and rate it.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: We did standardized photos.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: There's a whole there's a whole like science backstory that people um don't necessarily realize.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: And then once you have the formulation you like, you need to do stability testing.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: So you need to make sure that um that the that the tube or the bottle or the package that you've chosen for it is suitable.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: So you have to make sure that there will be no leaking or leaching of any, like what if a molecule of polymer or glass got into the product because of a chemical incompatibility, that would be a disaster.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: So you do testing like that.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, and um, and then you know, then we do all the quality control testing.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: So then once the product is developed, um then we um have real and and we know that it's safe, we've already tested it.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: It's been, you know, at this point we're at like a six to six to twelve months after the original idea.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: Um then we're um having people um try it, we're getting more feedback, we're trying to iterate and improve it.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: And you know, before you make a commitment of a huge number of products, like before you run half a million products down a production line, you have to be really certain that they're going to be good.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: Right, of course.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: I think basically what you described as the scientific method, honestly.
35:23
SPEAKER_03: Because you know, I mean, no, seriously, because the the thing is that, you know, with your science background, you know that this is how you approach things, right?
35:33
SPEAKER_03: And it's almost like ingrained in us as you know, having a science background.
35:38
SPEAKER_03: But I think when it comes to general, um, you know, just on the business end of creating a skincare line, people are not approaching it like that.
35:45
SPEAKER_03: You know what I'm saying?
35:46
SPEAKER_03: Like they're not saying, okay, everything that you just said, which is let me make sure that form a hypothesis, then test it, and then you know what I mean, go back and tweak it.
35:55
SPEAKER_03: And all of those little steps are not, you can't skip over them, is my point.
36:00
SPEAKER_03: And I think there's, you know, there needs to be a lot more focus on that.
36:03
SPEAKER_03: There needs to be a lot more focus on the whole protocol behind formulating something, um, especially for skin, because you know, as you've mentioned, it's it's an organ, you know, it's not a it's a health issue that we're dealing with.
36:15
SPEAKER_03: You're not just dealing with cosmetics or beauty or makeup, you know, this is something that's you're putting on top of your skin.
36:21
SPEAKER_03: So there should be a scientific method approach when you formulate it.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: And I will I will say that, you know, some of the most important discoveries in skincare ingredients um came that even the things that we're using today, they came even before I was born.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, the idea of retinol or vitamin C as an antioxidant or hyaluronic acid as a humectant moisturizer, you know, those ideas have existed for a long time.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that I'm not a business person, and it's been a very interesting journey.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: I always feel like an outsider looking in because I really am a medical person and it's been a huge education for me.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: But one thing that I notice in the business world is that people claim that everything is proprietary, and people claim that everything is a brand new discovery, and like it's literally sometimes confusing for me.
37:20
SPEAKER_01: But science you and me both.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I don't know why.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: It shouldn't be confusing.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: I get this stuff, but sometimes marketing claims are so crazy that they make you do a double take.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: But um, skincare and science moves at a slow pace, and the people who are doing the best work in science are kind of standing on each other's shoulders, and um, you know, I think that that's important because it would be cool if there were a little bit more of a scientific collaborative effort in medicine.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: That's how it is, where of course you want the credit and you want the win and you want the publication, but you would never be mad that somebody else also did a study of a retinol and said that it worked.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: You'd be like, yes, that's good.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: We both agree it works.
38:09
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
38:10
SPEAKER_03: And you would build on each other's work.
38:12
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's the whole idea of progression in science, right?
38:15
SPEAKER_03: Right.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: It's sort of like you're built, you're building for the human for humankind.
38:19
SPEAKER_03: Yes, exactly.
38:20
SPEAKER_03: It's like a collective effort.
38:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
38:22
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think that, but you know, once again, that um, you know, this whole idea that we're speaking about, I feel like it's ingrained in the scientific community, but how do we bring this almost like I want to almost take it and put it, plop it into the business community because you know, we like think five times before we make a claim.
38:42
SPEAKER_03: You know, I know even back in my benchwork days, you know, in research, I used to be like scared to tell my PI that this definitely happened or I definitely saw this on the PCR, you know, or something like that.
38:53
SPEAKER_03: It's like we were always taught to question and you know, rethink and then revisit.
38:58
SPEAKER_03: So that I think that teaching aspect and that observation aspect needs to be brought into business.
39:05
SPEAKER_03: So I, you know, it's it's interesting.
39:06
SPEAKER_03: It's an interesting topic for me.
39:09
SPEAKER_03: Um, so so one more I have another question for you.
39:12
SPEAKER_03: So, what is your opinion about there's a lot of buzz right now about brown skin health or more melanated rich skin versus non?
39:20
SPEAKER_03: And so can you touch on that a little bit?
39:22
SPEAKER_03: Is that really just hype or is there really a difference there um from a medical standpoint?
39:28
SPEAKER_01: That's such a good question.
39:30
SPEAKER_01: And this is something that um in our new e-commerce platform, we're really going to build out more because I think there's a lot of misinformation here.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: I think from a medical and science standpoint, skin types are very different.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: But the way we think about skin types is based on dermal thickness, how sebaceous or oily they are, um, and how reactive they are to potentially irritating agents, and also how much they tan or melanate in response to heat or light.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes in medicine we think about the Fitzpatrick skin types, and they're rated one through six.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: So Fitzpatrick skin type one is very super pale, burns really easily in the sun, like porcelain skin, like think of like a fair redhead, like a Nicole Kidman type of person.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: And skin type two is kind of um a little bit more in between, you know, like a um a medium blonde person, like a Jennifer Aniston, where they'll tan a little bit in the sun.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: And skin type beige, yeah.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: And skin type three is kind of like a little bit um more uh a little bit more likely to pigment in the sun and someone who tans a little bit more deeply, like someone who has um, you know, potentially um an uh an Asian skin type background um or um uh a more or like a um just more like yellow pigment in the sun.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: More like a little yellow undertone.
41:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: Um a skin type four is someone who's more olive undertone who's going to hyperpigment a lot in the sun.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: So I'm like a skin type four.
41:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: Skin type five is a little deeper than that, with a little bit um more hyperpigmentation, but less risk of burning.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: And skin type six is like very little risk of burning, um, but ruddiness in, and that's more like you know, like an Alec Wec type of complexion.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: And um, and so in answer to your question, I think about sensitivity, react reaction, um oil production and semin production and skin thickness.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: It's not really about skin color.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think I think that's almost a little bit of marketing hype.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: Um where you know you can have you can be any race and be any skin type.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: It's not like a strict correlation that like you, oh, you're you're this race, then you're that skin type.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: It's um it's much more than that.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: And so um that's one of the reasons why I think the future of beauty, now that we have a much more globalized society, there are many more people who have multiple different heritages and um ethnic backgrounds in one person.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, your phenotype and genotype don't necessarily look exactly the same.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: I I think it's gonna be more important for people to lean into customized skincare regimens.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: But I I don't think like I see some products that are like, oh, this product is for darker skin tones.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that that like totally captures it because you can have a dark skin tone and still have thin skin and be dry.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: Or you can have, or you can have a really pale skin tone and have a really thick dermis and be super oily.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't, you know, in treating the dermal thickness and sebum production and reactivity, and that those three things are more important than treating the color of the skin.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: Um so it's a little bit more it's a little bit more involved than that.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I love that there's a conversation about inclusivity because I think that that's sorely lacking, you know, as a minority woman who grew up in LA in the 90s, it you know, it it's it's it can be a weird place to not see people who look like you in the media.
43:47
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
43:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:48
SPEAKER_03: Well, so you also grew up in the nineties.
43:50
SPEAKER_03: That's cool.
43:50
SPEAKER_03: We can talk about millennial stuff then.
43:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because I no, I mean, honestly, that I'm so thankful that you answered that question because it Makes sense more to me what you just explained than anything I've really read about.
44:04
SPEAKER_03: Um, I don't think that the clarification really is out there um in terms of the thickness of the skin of the skin versus just you know focusing on melanin and what kind of melanin and all that stuff.
44:16
SPEAKER_03: So I think you know, do you I think well, I hope that there's gonna be more research in that area, you know, and um we're gonna kind of I wanna see more research come out about that so brands can stop making these claims and you know, all that all that stuff.
44:29
SPEAKER_03: So um yeah, so I have um one more question for you.
44:34
SPEAKER_03: Um, if for all the young women and men out there that are aspiring plastic surgeons and they want to kind of go into the career path that you've chosen, do you have any advice for them?
44:46
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's the most amazing field.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I really love what I do.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: I feel incredibly fortunate that I've been able to um kind of wear these two different hats, um, not only as the CEO and founder of my skincare line, but also as a practicing plastic surgeon.
45:06
SPEAKER_01: I think it really allows me the best of both worlds.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, my advice to young people listening to this is that you you have to really um be open to what the world has to offer.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: There are so many amazing opportunities out there.
45:23
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes your path forward and your path to your greatest happiness is circuitous.
45:28
SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily deciding you're gonna be a doctor when you're five years old and then putting your blinders on and doing it.
45:35
SPEAKER_01: It's also looking around and learning all of the stuff along the way because you don't really know how it's gonna turn out and where your passions are going to lead.
45:46
SPEAKER_01: So if something makes you happy along the way, then I would pause and like seriously consider if that's something that may be for you.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, I I originally thought I wanted to be um an artist and and then I was going to be here and then I was going to be a writer, and then when I went to medical school, I was gonna be a cancer surgeon, and you know, in retrospect, it's like one of these things when you see someone's baby picture and you're like, oh, of course that's them.
46:14
SPEAKER_01: But when they're when they're a baby, you can't figure out what they're gonna look like when they're older.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: So it's sort of this one-way retrospect camera where you know, looking back now, I see that, you know, with writing art, science, anatomy, you know, of course, plastic surgery was the perfect career for me, and this was perfect for me.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: But it took going down all those different paths a little bit and exploring to really lean into who I was gonna be.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, my advice is to be gentle with yourself and to um, you know, listen to your heart and your mind, and it's a long life and there's no mandatory age by which you have to achieve anything.
47:00
SPEAKER_01: There are a thousand ways to achieve success and some ways that haven't even been defined yet.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: So just be be creative, be clever, always think about stuff, you know, write down your ideas.
47:13
SPEAKER_01: I I I have like memos in my phone.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: I used to keep a journal by my bed.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: Now I just use the notes section in my iPhone, which is Same! Oh my gosh, same.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: Like write down your ideas, think of stuff, make lists, and just kind of try to enjoy the journey because we've become such a destination-oriented society.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: It can be it can kill the spirit a little.
47:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that's such great advice.
47:38
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
47:39
SPEAKER_03: And I really hope someone listening out there um hears this because I wish we had that, Dr.
47:45
SPEAKER_03: Dave Run, when we were growing up.
47:47
SPEAKER_03: I know, right?
47:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, seriously, like you know, in medicine especially.
47:52
SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much for that.
47:53
SPEAKER_03: Um, everyone listening out there, and if you're, you know, I please take heed to what she just said.
47:58
SPEAKER_03: Seriously.
47:59
SPEAKER_03: This is, you know, there's not enough people out there giving such, you know, valuable advice.
48:03
SPEAKER_03: So I I really, really appreciate you doing that.
48:06
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
48:07
SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, uh, thank you so much for coming onto the show.
48:10
SPEAKER_03: I'm still starstruck that you said yes.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, that was so fun.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: I had no idea it was gonna be such a fun chat, but I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna bug you, right?
48:19
SPEAKER_03: It's like, does she have like 20 minutes in her schedule?
48:22
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: And if you stay in touch, and if anyone wants to stay in touch with me, I always do my best to have me or someone help me reply to my messages.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: So DM me or follow me on Instagram and um and stay in touch.
48:39
SPEAKER_01: And this was so you're doing amazing things.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm so impressed with this podcast.
48:44
SPEAKER_01: And thank you.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: That means the world to me.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I really that means the world to me because I want, I hope this is reaching people and clarifying some stuff.
48:56
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, great topics too.
48:59
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
49:00
SPEAKER_03: And everybody out there listening, please, please, please go follow Dr.
49:03
SPEAKER_03: Dave Gun um on Instagram.
49:05
SPEAKER_03: Her um her handle is Lara Dave Gun.
49:08
SPEAKER_03: Um is it Lara Dave MD?
49:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Lara Daveun MD.
49:12
SPEAKER_03: So please go follow her, check out her amazing line.
49:15
SPEAKER_03: Um, leave us any comments, questions you have for myself, or most likely for Dr.
49:20
SPEAKER_03: Dave Gun.
49:20
SPEAKER_03: Let leave them here and I'll pass them along to her.
49:23
SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, don't forget to subscribe and rate us on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts, any of the seven platforms that we're on.
49:31
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Dr.
49:32
SPEAKER_03: Dave Gun.
49:33
SPEAKER_03: This has truly been um eye-opening and so informative.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
49:44
SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
49:47
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49:52
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50:09
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SPEAKER_03: Also, make sure to give us a follow on all of our social media outlets.
50:19
SPEAKER_03: We're available on Instagram, TikTok, X, you name it, we're there.
50:24
SPEAKER_03: We also have a blog on Medium.
50:26
SPEAKER_03: So if you're a reader and you love Medium blogs, check us out on Medium.
50:30
SPEAKER_03: We publish some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast, and it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more.
50:40
SPEAKER_03: We go above and beyond with our research and making sure we're bringing you information that you usually probably won't hear about in other outlets.
50:46
SPEAKER_03: So check us out, leave us a comment, leave us a review, and we'll be back next time with another episode.
50:51
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.