Latest / DunkersPodcast / Cold Water Swimming and Mental Health | Dr Heather Massey on the Science of the Cold

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Cold Water Swimming and Mental Health | Dr Heather Massey on the Science of the Cold · DunkersPodcast

• 0:10
  Welcome to Dunker's podcast. It's our weekly splash into the
• 0:14
  lives of cold walks, the swimmers, wherever you are in
• 0:17
  the world. And we've got people 18 to 70.
• 0:21
  We reached to about 12 different countries in the world with the
• 0:25
  podcast at the moment on three different platforms.
• 0:28
  So we've got a lot of listeners and all with this interest of
• 0:32
  cold water. Duncan, what on earth's that
• 0:34
  about? But I'd like to say to them,
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  thank you for choosing to be here.
• 0:38
  It means a lot to me. My aim is very simple, real
• 0:42
  stories, real people, no gimmicks, and most are joyful.
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  Sometimes there are a few bittersweets, but always worth
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  sharing. So the cold truth today is the
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  science and thrill of wild swimming with Doctor Heaven
• 0:57
  Mercy. Today on Dunker's podcast, we
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  meet somebody I hadn't met before until today, and it's
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  with great pleasure. I'm joined by Heather, currently
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  based at Portsmouth University. Our conversation will, I hope,
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  literally take us into the icy waters alongside Heather, who's
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  from the university's Extreme Environments Research group.
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  Heather swung the English Channel, conquered World Ice
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  swimming Championships, and dedicated her career to studying
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  what happens to our bodies when we plunge into the cold.
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  From the gasp reflex to the post swim high.
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  Hopefully, we'll explore why wild swimming and ocean swimming
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  can be both dangerous and deeply addictive and whether it really
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  is the free cocaine high that everybody's talking about.
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  So Heather, welcome to Dunker's podcast.
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  Thanks very. Much for?
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  The I don't know where we start, I suppose in the water, do we?
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  I suppose so, but I I think, yeah, you've not left me much to
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  say there. Oh, believe me, I'll, I'll dig
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  around, I'll dig around. I, I think to sort of start
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  with, I was, I was trying to sort of think, what are the
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  three big questions that everybody might ask?
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  And that's probably why do we love it?
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  What does it do to us and how do we do it safely?
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  I think that, you know, if we can, we can sort of start with
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  something like that. And you found my, my sort of
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  take on this is that you found Cotton.
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  Thank you very much. Incidentally, for all the papers
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  that you sent, really, really worthwhile while reading.
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  You found that cold water can calm the mind and boost move
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  mood and even ease menstrual and perimenopausal symptoms.
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  Now that's in my mind, a triple win.
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  How does that happen? Well, that's a great question.
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  We don't know lots of theories. We've got lots of theories about
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  why it might happen. But this whole research area
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  really started by a complete chance.
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  We were, we were asked to help with a a television documentary,
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  which is called The Doctor That Gave Up Drugs.
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  And we were there really to look after the safety of the
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  participants going into the cold water.
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  And one of the participants had quite long lived symptoms of
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  depression and anxiety. And she over several months
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  found that her symptoms of depression, anxiety had reduced
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  and put it down to the the cold water swimming and cold water
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  emotions that she'd done. But yeah, so we've kind of built
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  a whole area of research around this, but we still don't know
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  why it happens. But we've got lots of ideas
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  about why it might happen. And these range from being the
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  fact that we're going into cold water and the, the, the
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  physiological changes, the bodies changes that happen as a
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  consequence, as a consequence of going into the water may have an
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  impact. It might be the psychology.
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  So the fact that we go in in groups, we swear lots, we do
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  lots of, we have fun, we play because adults do play and can
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  give themselves permission to play.
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  And also the sort of more social side, as you say, it's a group
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  activity. It stops us becoming lonely and
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  detached. And so there's lots of different
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  aspects to this that might sort of interlink that that would
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  mean it's an activity that people enjoy doing and, and, and
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  gain pleasure and possibly have reduction in symptoms of low
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  mood or depression. OK.
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  OK. Yes.
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  And certainly some more of your papers were focusing on
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  different areas. I've, I've made a few sort of
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  notes that to ask you, because one of them was, was this mind
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  and body connection that that strongly comes through.
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  And I think one of your papers called it Nature's
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  antidepressant. I seem to remember that
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  somewhere. And that's quite a big claim.
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  So chemically, what's going on in the brain?
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  If if that's if that sort of fun element and that mood change is
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  so significant, what's happening Well.
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  We can't directly test what's going on in the brain, but what
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  we can do is test the rest of the body and we know the things
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  that will pass through the brain into the brain and things that
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  won't. So what we know happens when we
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  go into cold waters, we get that cold shock response that you
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  mentioned earlier on and that has not only causes changes to
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  our bodies. So we get an increase in heart
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  rate, blood pressure. We also get an increase in
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  stress hormone response levels. We get increase in dopamine
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  levels and things like that. And so we think this is again,
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  this is the theory. We think.
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  There's still lots of room for lots more research to go on.
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  We think that it might be that initial exposure to going into
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  cold water that that causes these this big hormonal increase
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  to happen. And one or several of those
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  hormones may be linked with changes in mood that that occur
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  as a consequence of going into the cold water.
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  So it's we, we can't pin it down exactly yet, but we think it
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  might be some those, those hormone changes that that happen
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  when we go into the cold water. Right.
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  As a as a sort of a slight aside, is your is the extreme
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  environments lab that you've got?
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  Is that what you're actually studying?
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  So there's lots of things that we study.
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  In the extreme. Environments Lab So, so we, we
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  study what happens to you when you get hot or when you get cold
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  or we get low in oxygen. And we apply that to healthcare
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  settings. We apply it to so people with
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  different types of disease. We apply it to people in work
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  based settings or to elite sports and athletes.
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  So we apply the the activities that we do to lots of different
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  areas of of of research and interest with the aim of trying
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  to improve people's work based practices, improve our elite
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  athletes and also help to mitigate any potential harm that
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  could be occurring because of an environment.
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  And where there's possible benefit, try to work out what
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  that benefit could be. Right.
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  So there's, there's a lot, you've got a foot in a footprint
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  effectively in a lot of different disciplines here,
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  haven't you? Those hormone changes, that is
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  that, is that the same for men as it is for women?
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  Well, we believe it's the stress hormone responses that occur.
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  So yes, they would be the same for men and for women.
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  We, at the moment that the research that we've looked at
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  around menopause and perimenopause is quite a low
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  level of research where we've, we've literally, we've asked
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  lots of people to fill in a form and mainly those that already
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  swim in open water or out wild swimming.
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  So what we're, we've, you know, we've noticed that a number of
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  people said that they, they found that their symptoms of
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  menopause or perimenopause had reduced and they, they'd sort of
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  stated that it was down to their cold water swimming.
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  So for us, the next step would to be to say, well, if it hurts
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  for a few people, does it happen to lots of people?
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  And that's where we've opened up the survey and that's where
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  we've got to. We've not actually got anybody
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  in the lab where we've hydrated out different, you know, levels
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  of hormones different. We've not got to that stage yet.
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  We've literally surveyed lots of people, asked them about their
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  symptoms of of menopause or perimenopause, and then also the
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  impact that their cold water immersion or swimming has had
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  and how they think that may have impacted not just their
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  menopausal perimenopause, but their health as well.
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  Right. So this yeah, yeah, there's,
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  there's a few retail sort of verticals that you could go with
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  both men and women there. I guess to, to sort of get down
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  a little bit further into that. You did say a moment or two ago
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  about fun and about the fact that older people, yeah, we have
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  we can have fun the same as kids.
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  So the the third sort of strand that I was trying to sort of
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  stitch together was about the social piece, because the social
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  piece is really stronger. And you've talked in in in the
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  papers that I've read, it was very strongly about the how cold
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  water builds communities, creates moments.
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  We really appreciate. And it's it's about a shared
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  hardship. Or is it something deeper that's
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  even happening than that? Is it is it that sort of well,
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  let's do it together, or is it is it something that's even more
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  challenging I. Think it's a bit of I think it's
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  a bit of both. I think being going into cold
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  water you need ideally you need a community to go with for for
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  safety reasons. It's it's always better to go in
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  a group if people are going to have problems, then they can be
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  more easily resolved if if there are other people there to attend
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  to them and also to help out. But also, it's about sharing
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  that experience with people as well.
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  It's great, yeah. The people I swim with, we are
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  notorious swearers. We probably swear a lot outside
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  of the. Beach no you've.
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  Sent this a little bit of space. You've said this twice, so I'm.
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  I'm lucky so far, Emma, I've not heard a swear word.
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  Sorry. Go on.
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  But especially when you're going into water, then you do notice
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  that actually, and there is some research behind this to suggest
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  that by swearing it increases your pain threshold.
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  So there is actually some evidence based to it.
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  But the idea being is that you've got that you, you know,
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  as cold water service, we know what's going to happen to us.
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  And actually going in as a group, there's something that
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  you sort of reminded yourself of what it's like to go in and, and
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  every, every time with the group, you're sort of
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  experiencing that shared experience again.
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  And that's, that can be quite, you know, addictive and
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  absolutely and fun. So yeah, it's definitely
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  something that. And as adults, we don't.
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  We don't give ourselves enough opportunities to relax and play,
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  whereas this is pureplay isn't. It is.
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  There's no. Other reason we would go into
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  cold water, There are a number of reasons we shouldn't go in.
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  You know, there's lots of reasons why cold water could
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  harm us, but there's a certain, there's a certain few reasons
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  why actually going into cold water for some people might be
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  pleasurable, it might be entertaining it, it provides
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  them with, you know, a talking point, a reference point for
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  speaking to other people that might have similar clothing to
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  themselves. Absolutely.
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  Yeah. They may, they may start to
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  identify with certain people because of what they're wearing,
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  what they're doing. So it it provides community and
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  an identity which are important attributes to to any society.
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  I totally agree. I can, I can only sort of
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  reflect back to what's happened in, in Abirsk because we started
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  this in 2020 and obviously just at the at the end of the second
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  major lockdown and there was only seven of us that went in
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  and we were, we were going into the River Sock.
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  And I remember at one particular point it got down to 0 -, .5 and
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  it was obviously not frozen because it's, it's the river
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  that goes into the sea. But the bottom line is you just
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  sort of question yourself while you're doing it.
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  That was the first thing. But there's a whole lifestyle
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  that sort of emerged from that, whether it's into the sort of
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  the, the, the dry robe and there are other robes available by the
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  way, whether it was the dry robe, whether it was sort of the
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  type of boots and gloves and hats that you wore after.
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  There's a real sort of, yes, there's a, there's a lifestyle,
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  there's a wardrobe that's built up just because you want to stay
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  in a wee bit longer because you can get warmer quicker or, and
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  then the other thing that we did was actually introduce a walk
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  into the, the dunk. So at the end of every dunk, we
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  go on a walk for a roundabout. I think it's about 4004 thousand
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  steps. So it's 2/3 of a mile maybe so
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  important, so important because it warms everybody back up.
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  And it's the, it's that, that time you can, you can barely
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  talk when you're in the water, but you can talk when you're
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  walking. So you can catch up with people
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  and find out what their stories was.
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  So and that's sort of that. I'm going to come back to that
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  neuroscience bit again because you did a fascinating part study
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  that you were part of as how cold water changed large scale
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  brain networks and how they interacted.
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  Now I thought that was fascinating.
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  It's it's heavy stuff, but cold water has got a really, really
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  major leverage on, on our whole bodies, I guess.
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  And it absolutely has. And we know so much about the
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  impact that cold water emersion can have on sort of what happens
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  to our bodies from the neck downwards.
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  And the real area we know so little about is what goes on
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  within our brain, right? Right now we can do lots of
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  things with our body that we can't necessarily do with our
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  brain. So we can ask people to insert
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  probes or stick things on that will allow us to measure stuff.
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  Yeah. But with the brain, it's
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  completely different. And for a whole number of
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  ethical reasons, we can't stop sticking probes in people's
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  brains. So it's quite difficult to do.
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  And so with sort of the advent of all this technology, with all
• 15:27
  the MRI scans and things like that, we can start to see, oh,
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  and EEG as well. OK, Yeah, yeah.
• 15:36
  EEG, Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
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  Well, we can start to see what's going on or the activity that's
• 15:41
  going on in the brain or different brain regions as well.
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  And we we know some different brain regions have different
• 15:48
  activities and support different parts of our functioning.
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  And so we can start to see that it's very, it's quite a blunt
• 15:55
  instrument at the moment, but technology is improving all of
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  the time. And so, you know, this is just
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  the start of a study that that may, you know, grow wings.
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  And much later on, when improvements in technology is
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  improved, I mean, what we've found so far is that, that we
• 16:14
  just, we put, we put our volunteers into a hot tub, which
• 16:20
  we, we turn cold, we've got it to 20°.
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  And that obviously isn't as cold as some of the hardcore dunkers
• 16:26
  that you speak to hear. But these people were naive to
• 16:30
  going into cold water. So they were still getting a
• 16:33
  considerable cold shock response.
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  And we, we scanned their brains before and after they went into
• 16:40
  the cold water and we saw some big changes in their, their
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  brain activity and connectivity as a consequence of the dunk in
• 16:48
  cold water. And so we saw some changes in
• 16:52
  their mood centres as well as we, we asked them to, to tell us
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  about their, their changes in any positive or negative mood as
• 17:00
  well. And these, the, the changes that
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  we, we asked them about that they've recorded.
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  And then what we saw from the brain scans, the the MRI scans,
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  they were highly sort of correlated about there was
• 17:14
  definitely an increase in positive mood and a reduction in
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  the negative mood states as well, just simply from being in
• 17:23
  their in cold water to their shoulders for 5 minutes.
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  Yeah, yeah. And that's, it's quite
• 17:29
  impressive that change no, just to caveat all of this, all of
• 17:34
  these experiments that we do, the individuals that take part
• 17:38
  in these, we screen them quite well.
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  So we they don't have any cardiovascular problems.
• 17:46
  They're they're very fit, well and healthy and therefore that
• 17:50
  have been through doctors have screened them so that we can
• 17:54
  make sure that they can go into the cold water.
• 17:57
  That's not to say that if people wanted to take part in cold
• 18:00
  water swimming or dipping that. They have to have a full medical
• 18:05
  before they do, no? What we need to make sure is
• 18:08
  that people that want to do this, they just, they're very
• 18:12
  careful about going in to start with in terms of if they do have
• 18:17
  any underlying, any underlying medical conditions, they get
• 18:21
  themselves checked out before they go into the water.
• 18:24
  So I should really have said that at the start.
• 18:26
  All of these experiences. Are unfit, younger, healthy
• 18:31
  people, so people that just need to be a bit more aware that
• 18:36
  because we can get away with doing it in the lab, we've got a
• 18:39
  number of very strict controls, which means that we can't do it
• 18:42
  on certain populations that that may have some negative
• 18:46
  consequences of going into cold water.
• 18:48
  Yeah, Yeah, yeah. So, So clearly that, that sort
• 18:51
  of ability that you've got that sort of triangulates EEG, EMG
• 18:57
  and ECG and sort of look at all, all of those three factors and,
• 19:02
  and monitors those really helps you to sort of, I guess monitor
• 19:07
  the sustained benefits of that. And how do you find that mood
• 19:11
  and well-being benefits sort of either are accelerated or
• 19:15
  continue after you come out of the cold water or, or is it, is
• 19:19
  it really just like you're out of the water so it all stops?
• 19:24
  What we're going on is self-reports at the moment.
• 19:27
  OK, So what what we have noticed is that people feel pretty
• 19:32
  positive for the first few hours after they've come out of the
• 19:36
  cold water. And that might sort of wane as
• 19:39
  the day goes on. And lots of people will say, oh,
• 19:41
  I need to get my daily fix or need to go in a couple of times
• 19:45
  a week at the very least in order to get that sort of or
• 19:48
  maintain that high, high level of positive mood.
• 19:52
  So it's, it's something that people, it's almost, I don't, I
• 19:57
  don't know a great deal about addiction science, but for some,
• 20:01
  for me, it feels like an addiction in order to try to
• 20:05
  maintain their health and well-being.
• 20:08
  So I mean, these, this is all needs studying.
• 20:12
  There's so many things that need to be studied and understood far
• 20:14
  better than than I can articulate at the moment.
• 20:18
  But as soon as you lift the lid on these things, it's a bit like
• 20:20
  Wim Hof has always said, well, you don't need to stay in water
• 20:24
  more than 2 1/2 minutes to get the hit.
• 20:27
  And, and yet people come down to us every day and say, how long
• 20:32
  shall I stay in for? Oh, well, it's about 19 or 20°.
• 20:36
  OK, well, I'll stay in for 19 or 20 minutes.
• 20:38
  And there's a, there's just a, there's almost a default
• 20:41
  correlation around, certainly in the UK, that if it's 10° you're
• 20:46
  staying for 10 minutes or 12° you're staying for 12 minutes.
• 20:50
  It's. Have you found that yourself?
• 20:53
  I I hear that a lot. Do you?
• 20:55
  Yeah. Try and bust that myth at every
• 20:58
  opportunity. OK help me, help me understand
• 21:01
  it. OK, so this staying for one
• 21:04
  degree, staying for one minute per degree of water temperature
• 21:07
  is a complete myth, right? What you know, some of the the
• 21:13
  reasoning behind this was that basically the rationale behind
• 21:17
  it is that the colder the water, the shorter you'll stay in cold
• 21:22
  water. That that I agree with, but
• 21:27
  there's a number of factors that aren't really considered in
• 21:30
  that. OK.
• 21:31
  OK. And those really relate to the
• 21:34
  fact that some of the potential harms that could happen to you
• 21:39
  going into the cold water happen immediately you go into the
• 21:43
  water. And they, they don't really
• 21:46
  reflect the fact that that's, that, that sort of premise that
• 21:50
  you, you stay in for a shorter period of time when the cold of
• 21:54
  the water gets only really applies to deep body cooling.
• 21:57
  So prevention of hypothermia gets into cold, whereas lots of
• 22:02
  the other problems associated with going into cold water
• 22:05
  happen immediately upon immersion.
• 22:07
  So that's cold shock response, which although we've we've
• 22:11
  looked at it in quite a positive framing and saying it could be
• 22:14
  the potential and it could have that potential for mood
• 22:18
  improvement. This is a major problem and and
• 22:22
  lots of the deaths that occur in the UK, water related deaths
• 22:27
  that have occurred are most likely to have occurred because
• 22:31
  of that cold shock response. OK, OK.
• 22:33
  Where we get a big inspiratory gasp, rapid breathing and if
• 22:40
  you've you've accidentally fallen into the water and you
• 22:43
  take a big breath in and you're inhaling water, you've started
• 22:48
  that drowning process straight away.
• 22:50
  So there's not only the sort of the drowning problems, but also
• 22:55
  associated with problems with heart, heart arrhythmias that
• 23:01
  those sorts of things that can happen as soon as you get in the
• 23:04
  cold water. So I, I'd really want to dispel
• 23:07
  this idea that one minute per degree of cold water is the way
• 23:11
  to go to, to a better, better immersion.
• 23:14
  It really isn't. No, OK.
• 23:16
  Keep it short, couple of minutes Max is is all you should need.
• 23:20
  Yeah, we've, I think because we don't have your, your, your, the
• 23:25
  benefits of your learning and your insight.
• 23:27
  I think what we've always sort of said to people that we a, we
• 23:30
  never let people go in on their own, especially when they first
• 23:33
  start. But there again, with so many
• 23:35
  dunkers now, you know, you're nearly always guaranteed of an
• 23:39
  audience of about sort of half a dozen or a dozen at the at the
• 23:42
  very least. But the other thing is, we
• 23:44
  always sort of say to people, as soon as you start to feel warm
• 23:49
  when you're in the water, get out.
• 23:51
  Because that's when hypothermia, we understand, starts to sort of
• 23:56
  kick in. And it's important to get people
• 23:59
  out of the water before they start to really get they get too
• 24:02
  cold because it takes them ages to warm up again, doesn't it?
• 24:06
  Absolutely, and you can carry on cooling even though you've got
• 24:09
  out of the water. There's something called
• 24:11
  continued cooling, but sometimes people call it after drop as
• 24:15
  well. OK, heard that phrase.
• 24:16
  Yeah, yeah, you've. Heard that phrase, Yeah.
• 24:18
  OK, so that is where your deep body temperature continues to
• 24:21
  cool even though you've got out of the cold water.
• 24:24
  So you can carry on cooling for a twenty 30-40 minute bit after
• 24:28
  you've got out of the water, right.
• 24:30
  So your body temperature will be considerably cooler than when
• 24:34
  you got out of the water and that then takes a while to re
• 24:37
  warm as well. That's why going for your module
• 24:41
  walk or sitting and having a copper after is a really good
• 24:45
  idea. So you can get an idea of how
• 24:47
  people are after their their cold water dip.
• 24:50
  And you can check that they would be safe to drive as well
• 24:54
  by the fact that they they maintain their coherency.
• 24:58
  And so I think that's it's really important to to note that
• 25:03
  that that you really do need to have a good community around you
• 25:08
  that are looking out for each. Other.
• 25:10
  Looking for these signs of changes in people's behaviour,
• 25:13
  the consequence of their their emotion and dip.
• 25:15
  And, and one that I think is very common to a lot of people
• 25:19
  nowadays, especially I suppose older, older guys, because
• 25:22
  really we're our group is probably 40 + 40 to mid 7075 is
• 25:30
  things like Reynard's and people get to just just start the
• 25:33
  fingers, just one or two of the fingers that go white.
• 25:36
  Maybe we've got one girl who's actually incredibly fit.
• 25:39
  She's a major swimmer, but if she goes in in the winter, all
• 25:44
  the fingers have gone, all the toes have gone.
• 25:46
  And names Vanessa and bless her, she she really, she really works
• 25:51
  on getting herself warm again. Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:55
  And that's something we we know, we don't know a huge amount
• 25:59
  about particularly. But things like non freezing
• 26:04
  cold injury I would also suggest, which is similar in
• 26:07
  some respects to Reynos and it's only really been studied in
• 26:12
  military population and therefore mostly in men.
• 26:15
  And that really is looking at prolonged exposure to cold.
• 26:20
  But we know that people have had non freezing cold injury from
• 26:23
  being in in 15° water temperatures and so well within
• 26:28
  the reins of rounds of cold water dippers.
• 26:33
  So this is something that is massively understudied and
• 26:37
  people just aren't aware of the the potential impact.
• 26:41
  It can be, it can cause quite severe pain, sweating and then
• 26:45
  prolonged problems in terms of rewarming your hands and feet as
• 26:49
  well. Yeah, yeah.
• 26:51
  And it can occur not just in your hands and feet, but any
• 26:53
  extremity. So ears, nose, other places.
• 26:56
  Right. OK, really.
• 27:00
  Well, there we go. We'll, we'll, we'll definitely
• 27:02
  be on the lookout for that. Yeah, yeah.
• 27:04
  The other thing I I did pick up again was that it's one of quite
• 27:10
  a few of our, the, the dunkers. We we're trying to get into
• 27:13
  triathletes and get, get people to sort of enjoy swimming rather
• 27:18
  than just dunking. Because the water is so up here,
• 27:21
  as you know yourself, the water in around Abersoch, it's
• 27:25
  beautifully clear. And it's, it's, it's a very
• 27:28
  lucky, we're very lucky. It's a lovely part of the world
• 27:31
  and so people are sort of have got performance in the minds.
• 27:35
  And it was very interesting for me to read the fact that you'd
• 27:38
  actually studied how cold, how how cold is impacts for elite
• 27:45
  marathon swimmers. Yeah, yeah, we did that quite a
• 27:49
  while ago. It's really about athlete
• 27:52
  welfare. Is it?
• 27:54
  Absolutely, yeah. You've got some quite lean
• 27:57
  individuals who are going into cold water for extended periods
• 28:02
  of time and although they, they are working really hard, they're
• 28:06
  generating a lot of body heat. Quite a lot of them are not
• 28:09
  generating enough body heat to offset their their, their the
• 28:13
  rate of cooling. Many of them were becoming
• 28:16
  hypothermic as a consequence. Now I'm I'm.
• 28:21
  I'm pretty well padded. I carry around quite a well
• 28:24
  insulated body. Your pictures, your your, your
• 28:28
  pictures do not indicate that. Let me tell you, carry on
• 28:31
  without. Even without a wet suit and so,
• 28:35
  but these elite athletes have very, very little body fat.
• 28:38
  So even though they're generating lots of heat, they
• 28:41
  can't retain it within their bodies.
• 28:43
  It just leaks out from them. So it's really important that we
• 28:47
  look after our athletes and that's why we were doing that
• 28:50
  work is to to establish what the the lower water temperature
• 28:54
  limits should be for elite races.
• 28:57
  That's not necessarily the case for sub elite races or race or
• 29:03
  events or other swimming events. Yeah, like triathlons.
• 29:06
  Yeah. Yeah, well, we have also looked
• 29:09
  at it for elite triathlons as well.
• 29:12
  But, but when we're talking about marathon swimmers in
• 29:15
  particular, we were looking at the Olympic Games marathon swim
• 29:18
  event where you've got the top level athletes competing in
• 29:22
  waters that were, were, were too cold for them.
• 29:25
  And we also had the same problem where elite athletes were, were
• 29:30
  were swimming in water that was too hot.
• 29:32
  And so they were also having problems there too.
• 29:35
  It's really important to to look after our athletes by making
• 29:38
  sure that the water conditions are within within a certain
• 29:43
  envelope. That means that they're not
• 29:44
  going to have problems as a consequence of that.
• 29:47
  And what what would you suggest is that envelope is, is it from
• 29:51
  sort of 16° to 20° or what, what would you say?
• 29:56
  I think, I think definitely for the for the colder sort of limit
• 30:00
  for our elite athletes, we're looking at something in the
• 30:03
  region of maybe 18 or 20°. OK.
• 30:06
  If we're having a swimming costume, if they're wearing a
• 30:09
  wet suit, we can take that water temperature down a little bit,
• 30:13
  possibly to 16°. But it's all about what the
• 30:18
  event, what the what the organizers want the event to be
• 30:22
  about and the type of athlete they want, the type of athlete
• 30:27
  they want, they want to succeed. If they wanted an event where
• 30:32
  you could get people that may be having some considerable amount
• 30:36
  of body fat could compete well in, then they could take the
• 30:40
  water temperature right down. But if they want, you know, to
• 30:44
  to portray sort of the, the, the stronger, faster, higher sort of
• 30:49
  ideal, then they're looking at very fast athletes.
• 30:53
  They're also going to be very lean.
• 30:55
  And as a consequence, we have a welfare issue there to look
• 30:58
  after them. So we either have to clad them
• 31:01
  in wet suits or we take the water temperature up so that
• 31:04
  they they're able to compete and rather than just survive in
• 31:09
  those cold. I was going to say because
• 31:10
  otherwise it's, it is just almost a sort of a stage of
• 31:14
  survival, isn't it? Yeah.
• 31:16
  Absolutely, Yeah. I mean, and we come at this
• 31:19
  primarily our research has been driven by the, the, the survival
• 31:23
  in cold water aspect and this, this strand of, of welfare in
• 31:28
  athletes. And also then health has really
• 31:30
  been bolted on the fact that we're looking at what is safe
• 31:34
  first process, then what we can do after that to allow people to
• 31:39
  thrive and compete or improve their health.
• 31:42
  There was a powerful case study that I read, and that was that
• 31:47
  there was a that you'd seen somebody with major depression.
• 31:51
  We did touch on this or you touched on this a few minutes
• 31:53
  ago and it's they've actually stopped their medication after
• 31:58
  starting cold water swimming and this actually stayed off it even
• 32:03
  a year later. I think the paper was actually
• 32:06
  reporting that they were off it a year later.
• 32:09
  Do you think that was the exception or is that could that
• 32:13
  be more common than we think? Firstly I'll I'll say that the
• 32:19
  the individual concerned was under their GP and their
• 32:23
  medications were stopped in consultation with the GP, so
• 32:28
  it's not something I would advocate doing just off the
• 32:32
  Willy. Nilly no.
• 32:33
  Right, Right. Absolutely, Yeah.
• 32:34
  Yeah. So this was all done with the
• 32:36
  sort of the agreement of the medical team involved.
• 32:42
  I have heard of other cases. So it's not, it's not, it's not
• 32:47
  an isolated case, but there's definitely cases where people
• 32:51
  have had reductions in their medication and they have put it
• 32:55
  down to the activities that they've undertaken.
• 32:58
  Now that might be cold water swimming or dipping or walking
• 33:02
  or cycling. So it's not unheard of for
• 33:05
  physical activity to mean that we can reduce some use of
• 33:10
  medications. OK, OK.
• 33:12
  And do you think that would, is that do you think that's
• 33:16
  sustainable for them individually or was that one
• 33:21
  person really a sort of an exception rather than the rule?
• 33:26
  I know this is conjecture because.
• 33:27
  Yeah, this is totally conjecture.
• 33:29
  The the idea behind this is that physical, if you can sustain the
• 33:33
  physical activity, you should be able to sustain the sort of the
• 33:38
  health and well-being benefits of that physical activity
• 33:42
  program. Fingers crossed life is nice and
• 33:45
  smooth and flat for you and that should be the case, right?
• 33:49
  But it may well be that if the physical activity sort of levels
• 33:53
  drop again that there may be you might need medications again or
• 33:58
  if there's some other form of ill health, you may need some
• 34:03
  medication use there. So this is not, you know, a cure
• 34:07
  all by any stretch. But what physical activity does
• 34:11
  is it really does promote physical well-being.
• 34:16
  It promotes what we call it perturbation what what we mean
• 34:21
  by. Perturbation.
• 34:23
  Perturbation. Perturbation.
• 34:25
  What we mean perturbation. So we've become quite a
• 34:29
  sedentary society. You know, we're sat down for 8
• 34:34
  hours a day at work, we go home, we drive home in the car and we
• 34:38
  sit down in front of the telly at night.
• 34:40
  So we've become really sedentary and what physical activity does
• 34:44
  is break up that sitting behaviour.
• 34:47
  And by being more physically active, we're actually, we're
• 34:51
  actually putting a small amount of stress on the body.
• 34:55
  But that stress is absolutely what we need as as a hunter
• 34:58
  gatherer we were, we were moving all over the place.
• 35:04
  And although we we we develop, we develop disease as a
• 35:09
  consequence of this longed. OK.
• 35:11
  Prolonged sitting. So we've developed, you know,
• 35:16
  cardiovascular diseases as a consequence of being sat for too
• 35:19
  long. Yeah, Yeah.
• 35:21
  And so just by being active and being outside can really help us
• 35:26
  prevent some of those diseases of sitting.
• 35:29
  Yeah, yeah. Which I suppose, which I suppose
• 35:32
  includes obesity. Absolutely, yes, yes,
• 35:37
  absolutely. So it's not just it's, it's not
• 35:39
  just cardiovascular disease, obesity, diabetes, it's the sort
• 35:43
  of the the triple whammy that we get there and then other
• 35:47
  associated conditions alongside that.
• 35:50
  So I think it's just what we're trying to do with any physical
• 35:55
  activity. It doesn't matter whether it's
• 35:56
  cold water, swimming, walking, cycling, anything is reduce that
• 36:01
  sitting behaviour, put a bit of stress on the body and we become
• 36:05
  more resilient to stress or physical stresses because we're
• 36:09
  more physically active. Can we overdo?
• 36:12
  Can we overdo it, Heather? Can we actually put too much
• 36:16
  stress on our body? Absolutely you can overtrain.
• 36:19
  Really, it's a well known phenomenon in a lot of athletes
• 36:22
  that they overtrain. Well, the vast majority of us
• 36:26
  are not at that point. No.
• 36:28
  No. You know, if we're sticking to
• 36:31
  government guidelines on physical activity, which is
• 36:34
  moderate to high intensity activity on most days of the
• 36:38
  week, building up to about 150 minutes of activity in a week.
• 36:43
  And that is not going to overtrain us get to the point
• 36:46
  that an elite athlete would get. To.
• 36:49
  And it would give us some of the health benefits of of reducing
• 36:53
  that sitting behaviour and stressing our body a little bit
• 36:56
  to become more resilient. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:59
  OK. So bearing in mind the fact that
• 37:02
  most of the dunkers as mounted a moment or two ago are sort of
• 37:06
  between 40 and 70, I think when you look at I've been talking to
• 37:10
  a group out in, on the Gold Coast in Australia and they are,
• 37:15
  they're called the grannies. And there's lots of these groups
• 37:19
  of granite, granite granites grannies all over the, the sort
• 37:23
  of the coast of, of Australia. And they're all older people.
• 37:27
  They're they're nearly all females 7060 25 and above and
• 37:32
  they even take the body boards and the surfboard.
• 37:35
  Some of them are even that adventurous, but because there
• 37:39
  was the majority of dunkers tend to be middle-aged to older
• 37:46
  rather one or two things that you as a as a research scientist
• 37:50
  know that we should be aware of for their safety.
• 37:54
  There are there a couple of sort of safety benefits that
• 37:57
  everybody should have in the mines when they go into into the
• 38:01
  sea or into cold water showers or wherever.
• 38:05
  Oh, OK. Yeah.
• 38:06
  I mean, I'll separate out into cold water showers and then what
• 38:11
  we should be doing because because obviously being in a
• 38:15
  cold shower is quite a controlled environment.
• 38:18
  Fairpoint going going into the sea is is pretty uncontrolled or
• 38:23
  going wild swimming is pretty uncontrolled.
• 38:26
  So if you're going to go for a dip or a shout, a cold shower.
• 38:32
  Top tip from me would be just to shower the body.
• 38:35
  Yep, not the head. Not the head start with a start
• 38:39
  with a warm shower and turn it colder gradually just showering
• 38:43
  that the body when you when you turn it cold.
• 38:47
  Because what what we can do is we have two, we have two nervous
• 38:52
  systems of a part of the what we call the autonomic nervous
• 38:55
  system. We have the sympathetic nervous
• 38:58
  system and the parasympathetic nervous system.
• 39:02
  And the sympathetic nervous system is our fight or flight
• 39:05
  responsive. It, it, it activates us, it, you
• 39:09
  know, it gets us ready. Whereas our parasympathetic
• 39:12
  nervous symptom system slows us down, it calms us down.
• 39:17
  OK, So what we can do is by putting the body in cold water,
• 39:22
  we speed up, we put the we put our foot on the accelerator
• 39:26
  speeding up our body. Now if we immerse the face at
• 39:30
  the same time, this has a number of nerves in the face which
• 39:34
  cause a parasympathetic activation to occur, a slowing
• 39:39
  calming down. That's why when you put wet a
• 39:42
  cold flannel on your face, it feels quite calming.
• 39:45
  Now, if you, if you put your foot on the accelerator and the
• 39:49
  brake at the same time, that means we're going to get signals
• 39:53
  going to the, the heart to speed up and slow down at the same
• 39:56
  time. And this can be some, this can
• 39:58
  be quite arrhythmogenic. OK, so we can cause some heart a
• 40:04
  rhythm. This is a consequence of, of
• 40:06
  diving in or jumping in or by showering the whole body,
• 40:11
  including the head. So top tip is showering is if
• 40:15
  you do want to shower in the cold water, start it warm,
• 40:18
  shower the whole body to start with.
• 40:21
  Then when you dial it cooler just shower the just shower the
• 40:24
  body. OK, that's OK.
• 40:27
  That topped it for showers. Yeah.
• 40:29
  OK, topped it for the showers. OK.
• 40:32
  OK. And the water.
• 40:33
  And the ocean. Topped it for the ocean.
• 40:36
  OK, this might sound a bit common sense, but go on.
• 40:41
  I've had a number of people that have struggled to get out of
• 40:46
  cold water when they've got in so I I know this doesn't
• 40:50
  necessarily apply to Abusal Beach because I know it's quite
• 40:53
  a nice flat. Beach, but however we.
• 40:55
  Do know of a number of places where it's very challenging to
• 40:58
  get out of the water? And so know how you're going to
• 41:02
  get out before you get in the water is always a good top tip
• 41:06
  because cold water can SAP your strength quite quickly.
• 41:11
  And so if you have to climb out of the water, you've got to have
• 41:15
  a certain amount of strength in order to be able to do that.
• 41:18
  And so knowing that you've got that capability or knowing how
• 41:22
  you're going to get out will mean that you can have a good
• 41:26
  time while you're in the water without without the the negative
• 41:30
  consequence of not being able to get out.
• 41:32
  Right. And a lot more confident.
• 41:34
  OK. Yeah, a lot more.
• 41:35
  Confident in what you're doing. It also.
• 41:37
  Means that you're not going to overstay your welcome in cold
• 41:39
  water. Sure.
• 41:40
  Yeah, Yeah, yeah. We've touched on that earlier
• 41:43
  on. SO you've, you've obviously been
• 41:46
  at this research for a few years and you've obviously, you've
• 41:50
  obviously gone into, I mean, the way your background reads as
• 41:53
  though you must have lived your life, half your life in cold
• 41:56
  water. How, how can, if you'd sort of
• 42:00
  take a snapshot of your research and said, how can what are there
• 42:05
  any barriers and incentives that could be easily voiced to, to
• 42:11
  get people to get into water? Because whenever we talk to put
• 42:15
  to them, they're OK. But I must be honest, by the
• 42:17
  time they hit the beach, they are three quarters converted.
• 42:21
  It's just that little bit, is it?
• 42:24
  It's the barrier of, oh, well, you know, I've got to get out of
• 42:28
  bed and I've got to get my clothes on.
• 42:29
  I've got to go down to the beach.
• 42:31
  Is there anything that you can see is a real incentive to get
• 42:34
  people into cold water? I think from my point of view,
• 42:41
  everybody has things that they enjoy doing.
• 42:44
  We enjoy going into cold water. Some people enjoy going walking
• 42:47
  in the woods or up mountains or, you know, jumping out of planes
• 42:52
  with parachutes on. What you've got to do is find
• 42:55
  your cold water. So whether that is, you know,
• 42:59
  whether that is going and playing tennis, going and riding
• 43:02
  your bike, absolutely find find the thing that gets rid.
• 43:07
  Of. That that means that you can get
• 43:09
  out of bed in the day and it doesn't have to be cold water.
• 43:14
  It could be any activity, but fine, you know, just just focus
• 43:18
  on that as opposed to it has to be channelled into being cold.
• 43:23
  Water. I think that's really, I think
• 43:25
  that's really key that not everybody cold water doesn't
• 43:29
  appeal to everybody or going into cold water doesn't appeal
• 43:33
  to everybody. But everybody has things that
• 43:36
  they enjoy doing, whether that's physic, being physically active,
• 43:39
  And so focus on that as opposed to getting everyone into the
• 43:45
  cold. Yeah.
• 43:46
  And I suppose from a sort of a science type, it's really my my
• 43:51
  sort of impression here. It's the balance of
• 43:54
  psychological, physiological and sociological effects all working
• 43:59
  together to sort of make people think, yes, we can, It's
• 44:03
  acceptable, I'm comfortable doing it.
• 44:05
  It's what I want to do and it's and it and it gets gets them
• 44:09
  committed, doesn't it? Absolutely, yeah.
• 44:12
  I mean, I mean the equivalent to the running equivalent to a
• 44:16
  cold. Some of the cold dip groups,
• 44:19
  maybe something like a park run or maybe there's a climbing
• 44:23
  group that's local to you. So there's there's lots of
• 44:26
  different physical activities that people could try and do.
• 44:30
  It's about what finding the activity that suits that person.
• 44:35
  That means that they can get out of bed in the morning because
• 44:37
  they want to go and do that activity.
• 44:40
  Brilliant. Well, honestly, I've, I've
• 44:41
  really, really enjoyed this. Now, we do have a tradition on
• 44:45
  the Dunkers podcast and that is that we have a question that our
• 44:49
  last guest has left for, for the next guest.
• 44:52
  And I'll ask you have a consideration about it and you
• 44:56
  can sort of send it me and or, or you can give it me now if
• 44:59
  you've got it, but it doesn't really that's not important.
• 45:01
  What is important is that your question, the question that
• 45:04
  you've been left is has been left by a previous guest.
• 45:08
  And it is if you could dump with anyone, who would it be, where
• 45:12
  would it be and why did you choose?
• 45:17
  Oh, I know. It's really, it's a.
• 45:19
  Tuffy. It's a Tuffy, so where would it
• 45:23
  be? Where Yeah.
• 45:26
  Oh, somewhere I've never been. Go.
• 45:28
  OK, I'd like my guest to take me to a cold dunk that I've never
• 45:32
  been to, just because it's been a pleasant place.
• 45:35
  You know, something different. Yeah.
• 45:38
  Who would it be? Yeah.
• 45:39
  Is there anybody that you could sort of you you really have
• 45:43
  along it and think, Oh yeah, love to have a dip with him and
• 45:46
  her or her? Oh, OK, well, I hear, I hear Jo
• 45:52
  Brands a cold water swimmer. Oh, is she?
• 45:56
  And, and I love, I love her humour so.
• 45:58
  So do I, yeah. Maybe Jo Brand, I don't know.
• 46:01
  OK, OK, well, if you. Could make that happen.
• 46:04
  That'd be. Amazing.
• 46:05
  Well, there's nothing but we won't do and we will certainly
• 46:09
  try. So we'll reach out and and ask
• 46:12
  her if she can connect with us. But up to the up to the point
• 46:16
  that we can come back and say, Heather, I've got Jo Brand on
• 46:19
  the other end of the line. Would you go swimming with her?
• 46:23
  Then I'd like to say thank you very much indeed.
• 46:26
  Honestly, thoroughly enjoyed it and thank you for your wisdom.
• 46:29
  Thank you for your insight and and hopefully we'll, we'll pick
• 46:33
  up again. Because the whole thing about
• 46:35
  the Dunkers podcast, it's as I said at the beginning, it's it's
• 46:38
  about all of us. We've all got backstories.
• 46:41
  Things happen to us all. And it's great to share because
• 46:45
  then people it makes, it just makes the whole thing of Duncan
• 46:48
  so believable and acceptable, doesn't it?
• 46:53
  Absolutely, yeah. And next time I'm in Abersoch,
• 46:55
  I'll. You make sure you make sure 8:15
• 46:58
  on the at the Yacht Club, on the beach.
• 47:02
  We're there every single day. I'll.
• 47:04
  Be. There, All right.
• 47:05
  Thanks very much indeed. Take.
• 47:07
  Care. Bye bye and you bye bye.