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Gentlemen Prefer Blondes with Karina Longworth · The Bechdel Cast

0:00
Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
0:03
Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
0:07
Speaker 1: husbands or do they have in individualism the patriarchy zef
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Speaker 1: invest start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello and
0:16
Speaker 1: welcome to the bec Del Cast. My name is Jamie
0:18
Speaker 1: Loftus and my name is Caitlin Darante, and this is
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Speaker 1: our podcast about the portrayal of women in movies. Is
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Speaker 1: that right? Boy? Is it? Wow? I said boy? Crap? Colloquialisms,
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Speaker 1: Uh don't count? Did they? I say? Man, dude and
0:34
Speaker 1: boys so much and I feel like I need to
0:36
Speaker 1: erase those from my vocabulary. So so instead, girl does it?
0:42
Speaker 1: That's what I meant is do gender neutral? I use
0:45
Speaker 1: it in in a gender neutral way, but I know
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Speaker 1: a lot of people who feel that it's masculine and
0:50
Speaker 1: then don't like to be called to do. Well, wait,
0:54
Speaker 1: what's our podcast again? So we talked about the representation
0:57
Speaker 1: and portrayal of women in movies. We use the Bechtel
1:00
Speaker 1: test is just a jumping off point to initiate a
1:02
Speaker 1: larger conversation about representation. Oh yeah, If you're not familiar
1:08
Speaker 1: with what the Bechdel test is, It is a media
1:12
Speaker 1: test that you apply usually to movies, but really anything
1:15
Speaker 1: with the narrative. It was first originated in a book
1:19
Speaker 1: by Alison bechdel Um, and I wanted to briefly mention
1:22
Speaker 1: that because a couple of fans of ours, Viola and Ti,
1:26
Speaker 1: mentioned that the test was created by Queer dot Com
1:30
Speaker 1: Alison bechdel Um, and then it was actually in the
1:33
Speaker 1: comic strip it's um to lesbians talking about how little
1:36
Speaker 1: representation there is of lesbians in movies. So I just
1:41
Speaker 1: wanted to throw that out there that we recognize that,
1:43
Speaker 1: and because what's happened with the test, it's kind of
1:45
Speaker 1: been like appropriated by straight people. Yeah, So I just
1:49
Speaker 1: wanted to call attention to that that it was specifically
1:53
Speaker 1: the characters in the comic strip are talking about how
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Speaker 1: they see so little representation of QUERNI ship. Yeah. For
2:00
Speaker 1: the purposes of our discussion, our version of the Bechdel
2:04
Speaker 1: test requires that in a piece of media, two women
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Speaker 1: with names speak about something other than a man for
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Speaker 1: more than two lines of dialogue. You think it would
2:13
Speaker 1: be easy, very little bar But if you've heard any
2:16
Speaker 1: of our episodes before, you'll know that it is challenging
2:19
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Angel, some movies cheat what do you mean?
2:24
Speaker 1: What was the one? And she's all that where they're like,
2:26
Speaker 1: I think you should kill yourself and then she's like,
2:29
Speaker 1: that's mean and that passes the Backtel test. But we
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Speaker 1: will do a better job than that. So let's demo it, Jamie. Okay, Hi, Caitlin,
2:38
Speaker 1: Hey Jamie, what's up? Um? Nothing, just saying you out
2:42
Speaker 1: with my gals talking about movies. Oh you know what
2:45
Speaker 1: this movie made me? You have a new appreciation for
2:47
Speaker 1: what's that flesh colored shorts? Yeah, there are some male
2:51
Speaker 1: athletes who look nude. Well now we're yeah, I broke it.
2:58
Speaker 1: We made we made two lives. But oh boy, those
3:02
Speaker 1: flesh colored I forgot about the flesh tone shorts and
3:06
Speaker 1: they really they really came on strong. And this one
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Speaker 1: we loved it certainly. All right, Well, without much further ado,
3:12
Speaker 1: let's introduce our guests. We're so excited for our guest today.
3:16
Speaker 1: She is the creator and host of You Must Remember
3:19
Speaker 1: This podcast and author of Seduction Sex Lies in Stardom
3:24
Speaker 1: in Howard Hughes Is Hollywood. It's Karina Longworth. Hi, Hi,
3:28
Speaker 1: thanks for having me, Thanks for joining. Thank you. We've
3:32
Speaker 1: been fan girling on the text tune. We're very excited, uh,
3:38
Speaker 1: and we're excited to talk about this movie in particular.
3:41
Speaker 1: Today we're discussing Gentlemen Prefer Blonde N three movie musical
3:46
Speaker 1: comedy directed by Howard Hawks, Jane Russell, Marilyn Monroe. We
3:52
Speaker 1: I don't think we've covered movies with either of them
3:54
Speaker 1: in them before. I don't think so. No, so the
3:57
Speaker 1: big first here on the Bechtel Cast today. It's nicely
4:00
Speaker 1: like it's the only Marilyn in Rome movie I can
4:03
Speaker 1: think of off the top of my head that where
4:05
Speaker 1: she is basically paired against another woman. Yeah right, I'm not.
4:10
Speaker 1: I've seen some like a Hot and I liked that
4:12
Speaker 1: movie a lot, or at least I did pre Bectel
4:15
Speaker 1: Cast to know I have to see it again and
4:17
Speaker 1: then decide. But um, I haven't seen seven Year Itch,
4:21
Speaker 1: and I don't really know. I'm not familiar with her
4:23
Speaker 1: other work really, so I grew up with a Monroe
4:26
Speaker 1: appreciating uncle who really laid it on thick, most likely
4:31
Speaker 1: for all the wrong reasons. But I have seen a
4:34
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of her movies. I hadn't seen
4:37
Speaker 1: this movie in at least ten years. And I remembered
4:41
Speaker 1: liking it, but I remember liking all of her movies,
4:43
Speaker 1: and so I was pleasantly surprised and challenged by this
4:47
Speaker 1: movie at a number of points where I thought, I,
4:50
Speaker 1: you know, predicted because of the time it was made,
4:52
Speaker 1: at what was going to happen, and very often I
4:56
Speaker 1: was put in my fucking place if it was Karina,
5:01
Speaker 1: what about you? What's your history your relationship with this movie.
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Speaker 1: I probably saw it for the first time when I
5:06
Speaker 1: was a teenager, Um, when I kind of first discovered
5:08
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe and and thought she was interesting. I don't
5:11
Speaker 1: know how old you guys are, but like I was
5:13
Speaker 1: a teenager in the nineties, and I like I remember,
5:16
Speaker 1: pretty early in my awareness of who Marilyn Monroe was,
5:19
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Hurley made this comment. If you guys heard this,
5:23
Speaker 1: she basically said something like if I was as fat
5:25
Speaker 1: as Marilyn Monroe, I would kill myself. Oh my god.
5:28
Speaker 1: And like I just was just thinking about that today
5:31
Speaker 1: because like, I mean, you watch this movie and she
5:34
Speaker 1: does not look fat at all, and like, um, but
5:37
Speaker 1: in the nineties and sort of waif culture, Um, I
5:40
Speaker 1: remember watching this movie and thinking both she and Jane
5:43
Speaker 1: Russell just had these like beautiful womanly bodies that like,
5:47
Speaker 1: we're not really being represented in popular culture at that time.
5:50
Speaker 1: And so that was probably like my first moment of
5:53
Speaker 1: appreciation of the film. And and it's something where I've
5:56
Speaker 1: seen it so many times now that I almost can't
5:59
Speaker 1: even really enjoy it as a movie anymore because it's
6:03
Speaker 1: I just know it so well. But then I was
6:05
Speaker 1: watching it last night, and there are always things that
6:07
Speaker 1: I forget about it, like in the diamonds are a
6:09
Speaker 1: Girl's best friend, the fact that like the women and
6:11
Speaker 1: the chandeliers are in bondage when I talk about and
6:17
Speaker 1: and some just like some of the conversations like have
6:20
Speaker 1: some really interesting aspects to them. There's some lines of
6:23
Speaker 1: dialogue that I was just like, what did you just say?
6:27
Speaker 1: But wow, okay, yeah, I had never seen this movie
6:32
Speaker 1: and I just watched it the other day for the
6:35
Speaker 1: first time. Well, you know what, I didn't like it,
6:40
Speaker 1: But I'm not going to let that, you know, really
6:43
Speaker 1: cloud any judgment in terms of our discussion what didn't
6:46
Speaker 1: you what didn't you like about it? For we, I
6:49
Speaker 1: feel like it took forever to get a story going.
6:52
Speaker 1: I feel like you don't really know Hollywood musicals. Yeah,
6:58
Speaker 1: I don't know. We can talk about it in the discussion,
7:00
Speaker 1: but this is just never going to be a movie
7:03
Speaker 1: that I was gonna enjoy. But but but I'm excited
7:07
Speaker 1: to talk about it. Okay, So I'll do the recap
7:10
Speaker 1: of the story. So we meet Lord l Lee that's
7:14
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe's character. And we meet Dorothy Shaw and that's
7:18
Speaker 1: Jane Russell. They are best friends and they are like
7:22
Speaker 1: a performing duo who sings and dances. They're singing about Arkansas.
7:26
Speaker 1: They look great. We love them. Lor Lae is engaged
7:30
Speaker 1: to a man named Gus Esmond. He's a rich guy
7:33
Speaker 1: who showers her with gifts, but whose father disapproves of
7:38
Speaker 1: lor Lae because he thinks that she's like a gold digger, which,
7:41
Speaker 1: to be fair, she gets with strategy, right, yes, And
7:48
Speaker 1: lore Lae and Gus are going to travel to France
7:50
Speaker 1: to get married, and Dorothy is going to go along
7:53
Speaker 1: on this trip to chaperone at kind of vague reasons. Yeah,
7:58
Speaker 1: it seems like it's like at the quest of Gus,
8:01
Speaker 1: but but then he also doesn't seem to wander there
8:03
Speaker 1: either way. We gotta get why didn't you just go
8:05
Speaker 1: with him, because he later shows up in France. I
8:08
Speaker 1: think for business reasons, you can't go on the same boat.
8:11
Speaker 1: And that's why Dorothea is there because he knows that
8:14
Speaker 1: left to her own devices, the Marilyn and character will
8:18
Speaker 1: probably just like hook up with another rich dude. She does,
8:23
Speaker 1: so Dorothy is supposed to be stopping that. But Dorothy,
8:26
Speaker 1: you know, is very easily distracted by attractive men. Classic
8:32
Speaker 1: Olympic team distraction. I yeah, I mean that they enable
8:38
Speaker 1: each other in fun ways. Oh yes, yeah, and then
8:41
Speaker 1: get on what's basically the Titanic a lot of Titanic.
8:46
Speaker 1: It's like this movie is like what if the Titanic
8:49
Speaker 1: didn't didn't crash but was sexy but was really hot.
8:54
Speaker 1: So Lorala is on the hunt for a rich man
8:58
Speaker 1: on the boat um possibly do for Dorothy? Yes, And
9:02
Speaker 1: Dorothy is chasing after these Olympians because, unlike Lorel, she
9:07
Speaker 1: cares more that a man is handsome than he is rich,
9:10
Speaker 1: so or like I would argue like can give her
9:13
Speaker 1: pleasure or something like that. It's kind of like the
9:16
Speaker 1: money versus pleasure argument with them. Meanwhile, there's this guy
9:21
Speaker 1: named Mr. Malone and he is trying to get close
9:23
Speaker 1: to Lorela and Dorothy, and at first we don't really
9:26
Speaker 1: know why. There's this all guy named Mr Beakman a k.
9:30
Speaker 1: Piggy Old Piggy because I got Piggy. Piggy owns a
9:37
Speaker 1: diamond mine. So Lorela is like trying to cozy up
9:42
Speaker 1: next to Old Piggy and Piggy's like, yeah, she thinks
9:45
Speaker 1: I'm hot. Should we know that Piggy is like older
9:49
Speaker 1: and overweight and it's not attractive. He doesn't hit the
9:55
Speaker 1: Western standards of beauty that we're used to. He's got
9:58
Speaker 1: a monocle, though, does and that's kind of hot. It
10:01
Speaker 1: does kind of look like Mr Monopoly, he truly does.
10:06
Speaker 1: I guess Mr Monopoly would have also been a philandering, misogynist, right.
10:12
Speaker 1: So Lorrea Lee sees Piggy's wife's diamond tiara, and she
10:17
Speaker 1: for freaking loves and she's like, I gotta have that.
10:19
Speaker 1: So while all that's happening, Dorothy and Mr Malone are
10:24
Speaker 1: like giving each other the q D eye until she
10:27
Speaker 1: sees him spying on and taking photos of Loria Lee
10:30
Speaker 1: while she's with Piggy, which is just like the scene
10:34
Speaker 1: in the gym in Titanic, right, so then Dorothy is like, oh,
10:41
Speaker 1: he must be a private eye. That Gus is. I
10:44
Speaker 1: think Dad higher just what she speculates to keep tabs
10:48
Speaker 1: on Laura Lee because he's just trying to shut down
10:50
Speaker 1: these impending nuptials between Loria Lee and Gus. So then
10:55
Speaker 1: Dorothy she's disappointed that her new crush is a spy.
10:58
Speaker 1: But and she and Lorela were like, crap, you gotta
11:03
Speaker 1: get these incriminating photos from him. They're like, let's do
11:06
Speaker 1: a very difficult, problematic thing to watch in two thousand
11:10
Speaker 1: and eighteen. Let us drug Mr Malone and strip him
11:17
Speaker 1: and rob him. Yep, you know we can talk about
11:22
Speaker 1: it and you can talk about it there. When that
11:24
Speaker 1: scene started, I was like, oh, oh no, I forgot
11:26
Speaker 1: about this part. And then it just gets like more
11:29
Speaker 1: and more and more intense. And then because they're like
11:32
Speaker 1: gaslighting him, he's like, what's in this drink? And he
11:34
Speaker 1: was like, oh, it's just vodka and and that we're Lorias.
11:40
Speaker 1: They turn up the heat, let's roast him, kill him,
11:43
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Uh. Oh it was crack, and then
11:49
Speaker 1: never mentioned again. Next day he's he's like, are you
11:52
Speaker 1: broken up? Like you should honestly break up with Jane Russell.
11:59
Speaker 1: If that yeah, that's good behavior goes both ways. Baby,
12:05
Speaker 1: you can't roofy anyone. No, And then, and maybe this
12:10
Speaker 1: is just me not knowing how boats work, but they
12:13
Speaker 1: somehow get the photos developed on the boat, as if
12:17
Speaker 1: there's a dark room on the Titanic. I mean back
12:22
Speaker 1: in the day when people everybody used to take photos
12:25
Speaker 1: on film, like you could get photos developed almost anywhere,
12:28
Speaker 1: so I would believe it, Like I mean, I wasn't
12:30
Speaker 1: alive in the fifties, but in the eighties, like literally
12:33
Speaker 1: you get photos developed on any corner, Okay, I did.
12:37
Speaker 1: I found it a little difficult to suspend my disbelief
12:39
Speaker 1: for their being a dark room on a ship, but hey,
12:42
Speaker 1: maybe maybe there was. I don't know, let's go with it.
12:46
Speaker 1: I also, the picture that is developed is so funny whatever,
12:51
Speaker 1: like the goat and the snake and the picture right,
12:54
Speaker 1: they're doing like an act out of like how animals
12:58
Speaker 1: eat each other, and it's it is incriminating, I suppose. So.
13:03
Speaker 1: Then so for some reason this is even crazier to me.
13:07
Speaker 1: Louraa shows the photos to Piggy. She did not need
13:10
Speaker 1: to do that. She could have just destroyed the film,
13:13
Speaker 1: but that's not what happens. Instead, she's like, here, here's
13:16
Speaker 1: what would have incriminated us if these photos got out,
13:20
Speaker 1: And then Piggy's like, Wow, you're so awesome for showing
13:24
Speaker 1: me these I'm going to give you a gift about it. Oh,
13:27
Speaker 1: I think that was her playing a long game. That
13:29
Speaker 1: was how I interpreted that of like, she'll definitely get
13:32
Speaker 1: something now, but she also might get something later if
13:35
Speaker 1: she just doesn't outright blackmail him. They're like, hey, I'm
13:40
Speaker 1: on your side, and then she'll still have those pictures forever. Okay,
13:44
Speaker 1: that makes me like her character even less but more Tiara, right.
13:49
Speaker 1: So then he's like, oh, how about you know, give
13:52
Speaker 1: you a motorcycle or something. She's like, no, I went
13:54
Speaker 1: your wife's diamond Tiara now, so he gives it to her.
13:58
Speaker 1: He like, seems reason so full. Then it's revealed that
14:02
Speaker 1: Mr Malone was audio recording that conversation, so he still
14:06
Speaker 1: has incriminating evidence against her, and it's like, bro, if
14:09
Speaker 1: you have the equipment, just start a podcast. You know,
14:11
Speaker 1: don't exploit women. Um So then Dorothy's like, hey, Malone,
14:19
Speaker 1: I like you, but if you try to, you know,
14:22
Speaker 1: exploit my friend, I'm not gonna like you anymore. So
14:26
Speaker 1: then they get to Friends and share Board, which is
14:28
Speaker 1: where Titanic left from, and there's a shopping montage and
14:33
Speaker 1: then love It, and then we get to the hotel
14:36
Speaker 1: where Lady Beakman Piggy's why his wife. His wife accuses
14:41
Speaker 1: Lorlae of stealing the diamond Tiara Um and then the
14:44
Speaker 1: hotels like, you guys can't stay here because much like
14:47
Speaker 1: a little scene in a movie called Titanic where someone
14:51
Speaker 1: except this time she actually did have yeah, but you
14:54
Speaker 1: know a robbery scene involving a diamond related Robert Yeah,
15:01
Speaker 1: specifically about diamonds. Yes. And then Malone had told Gus's
15:06
Speaker 1: dad about the goings on with Laura Lee, so he's like,
15:10
Speaker 1: the wedding is off. And then here's when things get
15:14
Speaker 1: really wild where the cops show up to arrest Laura Lee.
15:18
Speaker 1: So she runs away, and then Dorothy pretending to be
15:22
Speaker 1: Lorea Lye in like a blonde wig or maybe she
15:24
Speaker 1: dyed her hair blonde. She goes to court because you know,
15:27
Speaker 1: when you're arrested, you immediately go to court. Afterwards court,
15:33
Speaker 1: so that happens, and then Malone shows up and he's
15:36
Speaker 1: all like he's about to sell out Laura Lee. But
15:39
Speaker 1: Dorothy's like, hey, I'm Laura Lee, but my friend Dorothy
15:42
Speaker 1: is in love with you. But if you say anything
15:44
Speaker 1: bad about her, I won't love you anymore. And he's
15:46
Speaker 1: like never mind. J K. She blackmails him in public.
15:50
Speaker 1: He's like okay, It's like okay, And then he figures
15:52
Speaker 1: out where the tiara is and it gets returned to Piggy,
15:56
Speaker 1: and then Laura Line and Dorothy, Mary Us and Malone
16:01
Speaker 1: and kiss and that's the end of the movie. Sure
16:07
Speaker 1: is I didn't hear anything weirder or or I happened.
16:13
Speaker 1: So to answer a question, Um, the story that unfolds
16:16
Speaker 1: is why I don't like this movie. Okay, it's a
16:19
Speaker 1: stupid story, but oh okay, but I'm willing to hear
16:23
Speaker 1: everyone's arguments to the contrary. Okay, where do we Where
16:27
Speaker 1: do we start? Um? I just wanted to note that
16:30
Speaker 1: the source material, even though the I believe the screenplay
16:34
Speaker 1: was written by a man, but the source material is
16:38
Speaker 1: from a screenwriter named Anita Loose who's also a novelist
16:44
Speaker 1: and was like one of the first I think contract
16:46
Speaker 1: female screenwriters, or she wrote most of Douglas Fairbanks first movies.
16:51
Speaker 1: She was one of the biggest screenwriters during the Silent Era,
16:54
Speaker 1: and then in the nineteen thirties she really helped to
16:57
Speaker 1: shape Geene Harlowe's persona by writing some of her movie
17:00
Speaker 1: and then she wrote several memoirs about her time in
17:03
Speaker 1: Hollywood which are really great. Um, so she's a cool lady.
17:06
Speaker 1: And she initially wrote Gentlemen Prefer Blondes as a serial
17:10
Speaker 1: that was published I think in Harper's Bazaar, and it
17:13
Speaker 1: was inspired by, um, this friend of hers, h. L. Mencken,
17:16
Speaker 1: who was a New York intellectual who you know, was
17:19
Speaker 1: a middle aged man, extremely intelligent, and he was just
17:23
Speaker 1: like completely overwhelmed by his attraction to some little blonde
17:27
Speaker 1: show girl. And so Nita Lowe's basically wrote this satire
17:32
Speaker 1: about how somebody who could easily be dismissed as like
17:36
Speaker 1: a dumb blonde Fluzi was actually incredibly smart and cunning
17:40
Speaker 1: and was able to intellectually overpower in her own way
17:44
Speaker 1: like a giant of letters. Yeah, and that happens in
17:48
Speaker 1: the movie, I think, Yeah, I mean it happens a
17:50
Speaker 1: bunch of times there. Woman. Be Let's start there with
17:53
Speaker 1: the how men are portrayed in this movie before we
17:58
Speaker 1: get to lor Lye and Dorothy Um, yeah, I mean
18:01
Speaker 1: it's it's definitely like played for comedy a lot. How
18:05
Speaker 1: men are in this movie are absolutely handicapped immediately by
18:10
Speaker 1: their own erections and like willing to do almost anything
18:16
Speaker 1: to even spend time with Loria Lie be anywhere near her.
18:21
Speaker 1: We see it with Gus, who I don't think we're
18:24
Speaker 1: led to believe he's an idiot. He's not a brilliant man.
18:29
Speaker 1: He's no man of letters. No, but he's you know,
18:31
Speaker 1: he's he's wearing glasses, that's Hollywood go free. He's not dumb,
18:36
Speaker 1: He's got some stuff going for him, but he you know,
18:39
Speaker 1: as anytime Loura lie says something needs something, asked for something,
18:42
Speaker 1: no matter how irrational, he gives it to her. I
18:45
Speaker 1: don't know. And I mean the same goes for Piggy,
18:48
Speaker 1: But I I don't know. I mean, this is seems
18:51
Speaker 1: like a very dated foreman. I feel like almost plays
18:55
Speaker 1: into I was thinking about when we watched Teeth Caitlin
18:59
Speaker 1: and how you know women are sometimes portrayed as these
19:02
Speaker 1: cunning creatures that want to take things from you and
19:07
Speaker 1: need to sort of be neutered, uh in order and domesticated,
19:11
Speaker 1: and you see kind of shades of that, but Loyaliz's
19:15
Speaker 1: character always wins and always gets what she wants, and
19:18
Speaker 1: so it feels like those sorts of stories are being
19:22
Speaker 1: commented on sort of where she is genuinely very manipulative
19:27
Speaker 1: and cunning, which women are commonly accused of being, but
19:32
Speaker 1: she also gets what she wants and isn't in the end,
19:35
Speaker 1: isn't punished for wanting those things, which seems like a victory, right,
19:40
Speaker 1: I guess what bothers me about it? Like there's a
19:42
Speaker 1: scene at the very end whenever she finally is face
19:46
Speaker 1: to face with Gus's father, who has long disapproved of
19:50
Speaker 1: her and the idea of her, and you see him
19:53
Speaker 1: start to warm up to her because she's pretty, and
19:57
Speaker 1: who says the lines and like, hey, I thought you
19:58
Speaker 1: were supposed to be stupid it, but you're not. And
20:01
Speaker 1: I'm confused. Now She's like, guys, just give me three
20:06
Speaker 1: minutes alone with your father and then everything would be
20:09
Speaker 1: fine in her breathy voice. But then it cuts immediately
20:13
Speaker 1: to their wedding, so we don't even get to see like,
20:16
Speaker 1: and we do see other scenes where she's like, you know,
20:19
Speaker 1: cunning and coy with her sort of like manipulation. But
20:23
Speaker 1: I feel like there was an opportunity to like, see, okay,
20:25
Speaker 1: let's let's see her be smart and do something. Well,
20:27
Speaker 1: that speech she gives at the end I thought was
20:29
Speaker 1: like pretty effective in demonstrating that point where essentially when
20:35
Speaker 1: she is confronted with the father and he's like, hey,
20:37
Speaker 1: you're as hot as they say, anyways, you can't marry
20:41
Speaker 1: my son, and she has what I thought was like
20:46
Speaker 1: a really cool, interesting speech about what is it if
20:49
Speaker 1: a girl is pretty, that's not the reason you marry her,
20:52
Speaker 1: but it certainly helps, which is you know, we can
20:56
Speaker 1: unpack that statement all day, but she is like demonstrating
20:59
Speaker 1: that she understands what she's doing. She's not ashamed of it,
21:03
Speaker 1: and she doesn't think she has to be. And I
21:06
Speaker 1: don't know, well, she's contrasting basically, the father is accusing
21:09
Speaker 1: her of the only one in to marry her son
21:11
Speaker 1: for his money, and she's like, look, she's contrasting being
21:14
Speaker 1: beautiful as being a value in a woman to being
21:17
Speaker 1: rich and a value in a man. And she's talking
21:19
Speaker 1: about this double standard, and I think as aggressive of
21:23
Speaker 1: language as an actress like Marilyn Monroe could in a
21:26
Speaker 1: movie of nine three sure for sure. Yeah, and then
21:30
Speaker 1: and then then the scene before when she says to
21:32
Speaker 1: us something you came to like, Well, I didn't become
21:36
Speaker 1: this way because I wanted to like. The way society
21:39
Speaker 1: is set up made me this way, right, which I
21:42
Speaker 1: think is like basically the thesis of that character, which
21:46
Speaker 1: is that she understands that the world is set up
21:48
Speaker 1: to exploit her, and so she's all of her behavior
21:52
Speaker 1: is kind of a defense mechanism, like she's beating people
21:54
Speaker 1: to the punch by exploiting them. And you can argue
21:58
Speaker 1: as to whether or not that's good feminism, but I
22:00
Speaker 1: think for the time it was a certain kind of progressive. Yeah,
22:04
Speaker 1: that's true, and seems to have a level of practicality
22:08
Speaker 1: to it, where I mean, I I don't know. We
22:11
Speaker 1: I would argue that, you know, they're they're sort of
22:13
Speaker 1: representing two different kinds of feminism, where Marilyn Monroe's character
22:19
Speaker 1: is more of a survival based understands that society values
22:23
Speaker 1: her until she's a certain age or until she looks
22:26
Speaker 1: a certain way, and then she's on her own. So
22:29
Speaker 1: she's like kind of stockpiling now, so she'll be set
22:33
Speaker 1: later because we have to assume there will be limited
22:36
Speaker 1: opportunities for her as she gets older. So in some
22:40
Speaker 1: ways that like level of self preservation and just good
22:44
Speaker 1: old fashioned redistributing the wealth. That certainly, I guess it
22:51
Speaker 1: just bugs me a little bit that a large part
22:54
Speaker 1: of what she does to sort of exploit people, or
22:58
Speaker 1: so she's using largely her looks and kind of like
23:02
Speaker 1: feminine wiles to get what she wants, and because women
23:06
Speaker 1: have historically been valued only for their looks, I find
23:11
Speaker 1: that a bit troubling. But also maybe the fact that
23:14
Speaker 1: she's using that very idea and using it to get
23:19
Speaker 1: what she wants is good. I don't know. I just
23:24
Speaker 1: you know, what I mean is to look at it.
23:25
Speaker 1: I mean, I think in the context of the time
23:28
Speaker 1: this is being made, her options are limited, sure, just
23:32
Speaker 1: by what society will allow women to do. And of
23:35
Speaker 1: course there's like always outliers there, and we could argue
23:39
Speaker 1: that loyal I should go to college and get a
23:44
Speaker 1: doctorate and become a scientist and now become a woman
23:48
Speaker 1: in stem Yes, queen go off and you know, really
23:52
Speaker 1: defeat the patriarchy single handedly. But given I don't know.
23:57
Speaker 1: I I understand, and I feel like that the movie
23:59
Speaker 1: goes out of its way more than an average movie
24:02
Speaker 1: of this time to get across to you that she
24:06
Speaker 1: is trying to survive the only way she knows how
24:11
Speaker 1: um with I mean, with the support of a man.
24:15
Speaker 1: But also I don't I don't know. I I ended
24:18
Speaker 1: up liking moralized character a lot more than I thought
24:21
Speaker 1: that I would, And and Dorothy's as well. They I mean,
24:24
Speaker 1: they're both symbols from the survival, but only because she's
24:28
Speaker 1: like on st are they're going to do to pay
24:30
Speaker 1: the bills. When she turns, she's the one who's gone
24:34
Speaker 1: and become a woman in stem she's gonna be like, Okay,
24:38
Speaker 1: I've had all the sex. I'm going back to school there.
24:44
Speaker 1: But he had a similar discussion on the Breakfast at
24:47
Speaker 1: Tiphanies episode another movie that I simply do not like.
24:50
Speaker 1: But I understand that because women have had to kind
24:55
Speaker 1: of use unconventional ways to get things, uh you know,
25:00
Speaker 1: hapital or opportunities and things like that because they've not
25:03
Speaker 1: been afforded to us historically. That is something I appreciate
25:07
Speaker 1: and like to see stories about. But I guess when
25:10
Speaker 1: it's like, Hey, I'm a beautiful woman, and let me
25:13
Speaker 1: exploit that to get the things I want. Like, I
25:16
Speaker 1: don't know, I guess it's just because great that that's
25:18
Speaker 1: available to you. But what about all the women who aren't,
25:22
Speaker 1: you know, conventionally attractive by Western beauty standards. Like what,
25:26
Speaker 1: It's a very individual approach, sure, for sure. Um, Hey,
25:29
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then we'll come right
25:31
Speaker 1: back for more. Okay, and we're back. So, Karina, this
25:41
Speaker 1: is like your old Hollywood this is your expertise. So
25:46
Speaker 1: what are you? What are your thin? Well? I mean,
25:49
Speaker 1: I I enjoy the movie more than you do. Um.
25:53
Speaker 1: I think that it's fair to say that the storyline
25:56
Speaker 1: is thin and silly, but that's part of of just
26:01
Speaker 1: being a musical comedy of nineteen fifty three. I also
26:04
Speaker 1: think that this movie kind of critiques previous musical comedies
26:07
Speaker 1: in various ways. I mean, and that was typical of
26:10
Speaker 1: musical Hollywood musicals of the nineteen fifties, is that they
26:13
Speaker 1: had a meta quality to them. Singing in the Rain
26:15
Speaker 1: would be another example of that, where they're sort of
26:17
Speaker 1: quoting previous musicals and making them a little bit more ridiculous.
26:21
Speaker 1: While at the same time also blowing you away by
26:24
Speaker 1: certain technical things like choreography and costuming. But I mean,
26:28
Speaker 1: I've read about this in my new book Seduction, Sex
26:30
Speaker 1: Lies and started in hollywoodward Hollywood because of Jane Russell,
26:35
Speaker 1: who was the second of two actresses who Howard Hughes
26:39
Speaker 1: basically discovered and turned into major stars. And basically previous
26:43
Speaker 1: to this movie, Jane Russell was most known for being
26:45
Speaker 1: and Howard Who's is the Outlaw, but really most known
26:48
Speaker 1: for being in the publicity surrounding Howard hugh'ses the Outlaw,
26:51
Speaker 1: which was entirely built around exploiting her breasts and showing
26:55
Speaker 1: as much of them as Hughes could get away with
26:58
Speaker 1: at the time, and at the time, like right after
27:01
Speaker 1: this movie came out, Hughes was sued by some of
27:04
Speaker 1: the shareholders in the studio he owned, r KO, and
27:07
Speaker 1: the main focus of their complaint was that they thought
27:09
Speaker 1: that Jane Russell was a waste of money and that
27:12
Speaker 1: she wasn't a good actress, wasn't a good star, and
27:15
Speaker 1: that he had squandered the shareholders money building her up.
27:19
Speaker 1: But the timing of their lawsuit was really unfortunate because
27:22
Speaker 1: it came to court right after A Gentleman Prefer Blonde
27:25
Speaker 1: came out and had been a massive hit, one of
27:27
Speaker 1: the top ten highest grossing movies of the year. It
27:29
Speaker 1: was the biggest blockbuster of the summer, and it turned
27:32
Speaker 1: her into a star almost as big as Marion le Monroe.
27:35
Speaker 1: So that lawsuit didn't go very well for the shareholders. Um.
27:38
Speaker 1: But one of the things that I do find really
27:40
Speaker 1: interesting about this film is the fact that she had
27:42
Speaker 1: been absolutely the target of like the most withering male gaze.
27:48
Speaker 1: I mean. Also, the other thing about the Outlaw is
27:50
Speaker 1: that a lot of it is built around a rape scene,
27:52
Speaker 1: and a lot of the publicity around it featured like
27:55
Speaker 1: a cartoon of the rape scene. So this is all
27:59
Speaker 1: detail in my book as well. But so she went
28:02
Speaker 1: from that to playing this role of Dorothy and Gentlemen
28:04
Speaker 1: Prefer Blonde, where it's all about her gaze, it's all
28:07
Speaker 1: about her objectifying men. Her costumes are comparatively really covered
28:12
Speaker 1: up compared to what she had worn previously, especially this
28:16
Speaker 1: scene where she is like singing about her sexual desire
28:20
Speaker 1: for these Olympic dancers, like they are wearing tshtone shorts
28:23
Speaker 1: that make them look naked. And she is wearing a
28:26
Speaker 1: high necked, comparatively high necked black jumpsuit. You can't really
28:30
Speaker 1: see her cleavage, which was what she was known for
28:33
Speaker 1: at the time. And she's not it's not a thing
28:36
Speaker 1: where she's singing about I want these men to want me.
28:39
Speaker 1: She's singing about how she wants them right. So I
28:42
Speaker 1: think all of that is really interesting. I mean, I
28:45
Speaker 1: love Jane Russell, and a lot of the reason why
28:46
Speaker 1: I love Jane Russell is because of this movie. Yeah,
28:49
Speaker 1: I really liked her character a lot. Um. I would
28:51
Speaker 1: say I prefer hers w Brunette there Ca, prefer new
29:00
Speaker 1: movie coming out, new what men um. That scene was
29:05
Speaker 1: so interesting and having that context for it is so
29:08
Speaker 1: helpful because I assumed that that scene was just commentary
29:12
Speaker 1: on other musicals, like what you were saying, where you know,
29:15
Speaker 1: you're going through the screen full of women in various
29:20
Speaker 1: bathing suits and treating them is set dressing and and
29:23
Speaker 1: all that that happens all the time, even now. But
29:26
Speaker 1: that scene was so fun and it seemed to communicate
29:30
Speaker 1: it like it knew exactly what it was doing. Jane
29:32
Speaker 1: Russell's great in it. She's so funny and all the
29:36
Speaker 1: all the Olympian men were just vacant. They're all none
29:42
Speaker 1: of them. They were just flexing. They just bodies. They're
29:45
Speaker 1: just exactly like they weren't even allowed to in the
29:47
Speaker 1: way that some scenes like that would like the women
29:50
Speaker 1: turns to the guy who's singing and goes like, oh,
29:52
Speaker 1: but like they didn't even they were just there. They
29:55
Speaker 1: were automaton, flesh toned muscle boys. Yeah, yeah, for sure,
30:01
Speaker 1: it was great. But I would say that while both
30:05
Speaker 1: of these characters, both Lorlie and Dorothy, the story boils
30:09
Speaker 1: down to basically a friendship between two women and the
30:13
Speaker 1: things that they want and how they try to get them,
30:15
Speaker 1: but they're also framed pretty much entirely by the men
30:19
Speaker 1: that they're attracted to, Like what type of man they're
30:22
Speaker 1: going for. That's how like their personalities are defined to us,
30:27
Speaker 1: or like like she goes for this kind of guy,
30:29
Speaker 1: so she's this girl. And Dorothy goes for glasses spy,
30:34
Speaker 1: and so she she's this girl. Right, So using that
30:38
Speaker 1: as a way to like characterize women is you know,
30:41
Speaker 1: not the best way to do it, but we still yeah,
30:45
Speaker 1: I mean, because I mean they're two very distinguishable women.
30:48
Speaker 1: But there, I would say pretty still archetypal, where it's
30:51
Speaker 1: like Loreali is the like blonde, dizzy, airheaded, doesn't know
30:56
Speaker 1: what a tr is, right, doesn't understand where Frances this
31:00
Speaker 1: kind of thing, although that exchange does past the Bactel test. Yeah,
31:05
Speaker 1: I mean a place to even the stereotypes of blondes
31:07
Speaker 1: and brunettes in some ways, although I guess, I mean,
31:12
Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess I'd have to revisit the
31:14
Speaker 1: old Trope book because I don't know that brunettes would
31:17
Speaker 1: be portrayed as like seeking constant sexual stimulation and pleasure. Right,
31:23
Speaker 1: I guess she's framed as because she's not blonde, she's
31:26
Speaker 1: just like different from that like archetypal, like ditzy blonde type. So,
31:31
Speaker 1: and because she's not blonde, that means she's smart instead
31:35
Speaker 1: of airhead. And she's sarcastic. And that's basically what we
31:39
Speaker 1: know about Dorothy. I kind of wanted, well, I wanted
31:41
Speaker 1: to talk about the title of the movie Gentlemen Prefer Blondes,
31:45
Speaker 1: because one, it reduces women to their hair color, which
31:48
Speaker 1: means it's objectifying women's all of Marilyn's career, and this
31:53
Speaker 1: is something that happens within this movie and in countless
31:57
Speaker 1: other ones. So that's you know, not read uh. And
32:01
Speaker 1: it perpetuates the idea that like the blonde bombshell is
32:05
Speaker 1: the ideal standard of beauty for women, which has long
32:09
Speaker 1: been perpetuated by the media and movies like this one.
32:13
Speaker 1: I I mean, as it pertains to Dorothy's character, I
32:17
Speaker 1: like her a lot. I liked her relationship with Malone felt,
32:22
Speaker 1: you know, more authentic than a lot of relationships. I
32:25
Speaker 1: think they've got banter. She you know, she starts out
32:30
Speaker 1: by kind of calling him out. Where in that first
32:33
Speaker 1: interaction they have at the table, he is lying to her,
32:37
Speaker 1: but he's saying like, oh, I'm rich and I've got
32:39
Speaker 1: all this stuff, and she's like, you know, funk off,
32:41
Speaker 1: that's not what I'm interested in. Leave me alone. And
32:44
Speaker 1: and I found that, besides the fact that you know,
32:47
Speaker 1: she roufies him, he lize to her, those two things aside.
32:52
Speaker 1: I found the relationship to be very pleasant or more
32:56
Speaker 1: you know. And again it's like we have to contextualize
32:59
Speaker 1: everything with a movie like this, And for for this time,
33:02
Speaker 1: I thought it was a kind of a sweet relationship,
33:05
Speaker 1: and you know, to the end, it could have been
33:09
Speaker 1: very easy for him to, you know, do his job
33:12
Speaker 1: and not do what she told him to to save
33:15
Speaker 1: the relationship. But he does. He values her above spying
33:20
Speaker 1: on Marilyn Monroe. I would argue that he she is
33:23
Speaker 1: very forgiving of his not that great behavior. I do
33:26
Speaker 1: she rufies him, though that's true, No one really comes
33:30
Speaker 1: out of yeah to quote some like it hot. On
33:35
Speaker 1: one hand, there is that classic like guy initiating a
33:39
Speaker 1: relationship under false under a false identity thing, but then
33:44
Speaker 1: she rufies him, so is it a lot? But she
33:47
Speaker 1: has to tell him, like so often what she I
33:51
Speaker 1: don't I don't know why I'm about to try to
33:53
Speaker 1: defend a rufie scene. But she only does that because
33:57
Speaker 1: he's sneaking around spying on her friend. To me, this
34:00
Speaker 1: whole storyline plays out where she has to keep being like,
34:04
Speaker 1: you keep trying to funk with my friend, and I
34:07
Speaker 1: like my friends, so you better not do that. But
34:09
Speaker 1: if you don't do it, even if that's where your intentioned,
34:12
Speaker 1: or I'm gonna you know, well she bailed on him
34:15
Speaker 1: when he didn't that immediately takes him back another Well,
34:21
Speaker 1: we don't know how much time passes necessarily, but they're
34:24
Speaker 1: not to like come to the extreme defense of this movie.
34:27
Speaker 1: But I I feel that might be a little bit
34:29
Speaker 1: reductive of how that relationship works, because Dorothy does tell
34:33
Speaker 1: Malone to go frick himself if you will, when it
34:37
Speaker 1: comes down to he's going to keep sabotaging her friendship,
34:41
Speaker 1: which for both of them seems like the most important
34:43
Speaker 1: thing to them. Where there's even that scene where Dorothy
34:48
Speaker 1: and Malone there on the deck, it's all very tightan
34:51
Speaker 1: you know, and Malone makes a jab at Lorala, and
34:56
Speaker 1: Dorothy immediately is like, I can talk about her that way.
35:00
Speaker 1: You don't know her, you can't talk about her. She's
35:02
Speaker 1: actually very smart, and don't do that, and and you know,
35:07
Speaker 1: clearly defines the boundaries of you know, Loreline Dorothy are
35:11
Speaker 1: critical of each other, but they respect each other and
35:14
Speaker 1: care about each other and want the best, even though
35:16
Speaker 1: in Loyaliz's case, she kind of wants her version of
35:18
Speaker 1: the best. Dorothy, Yeah, I suppose, how do you I
35:23
Speaker 1: don't know, what do you make of that friendship? I
35:26
Speaker 1: actually think that it's um it's really positive, especially for
35:29
Speaker 1: the time period. I mean, there are just not a
35:32
Speaker 1: lot of movies where you have two female stars who
35:36
Speaker 1: were treated by the movie as equals. You know, I
35:39
Speaker 1: can name a few others, but like, I think that
35:42
Speaker 1: for that time period, it was really really unusual, and
35:46
Speaker 1: I do think that it is more central to the
35:48
Speaker 1: movie than any of the male female relationships. And also,
35:52
Speaker 1: like I guess I just wanna one thing I don't
35:54
Speaker 1: think we've like stated in these words so much is
35:57
Speaker 1: that I don't think that what Laurel I is ultimately
36:01
Speaker 1: going after is rich men. I think she's going after diamonds.
36:04
Speaker 1: Like her real love affair is with diamonds, and it's
36:07
Speaker 1: with this idea of accumulating wealth, and this is her
36:10
Speaker 1: way of doing it. Like there's a whole song about it,
36:13
Speaker 1: and diamonds are a girl's best friend, and I think
36:15
Speaker 1: like the staging of that song really plays up the
36:18
Speaker 1: idea that like, because she accumulates wealth, she's free, whereas
36:23
Speaker 1: these women behind her are like dressed in black and
36:26
Speaker 1: are like literally tied up. And so I mean it's
36:30
Speaker 1: you know, obviously it's skewed, and it's also satire, but
36:34
Speaker 1: I actually just think that, like so many of the
36:36
Speaker 1: messages in this film are positive. Yeah, I liked this
36:40
Speaker 1: the way this movie plays the friendship. I was like
36:43
Speaker 1: so surprised by it every turn because you and even
36:46
Speaker 1: in movies now occasionally you'll see a friendship break because
36:52
Speaker 1: you know that the husband wanted this or the boyfriend
36:55
Speaker 1: wanted this, and you know, women can have friends, but
36:58
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, the romantic relationship is
37:01
Speaker 1: going to take precedence and could break off. But they
37:04
Speaker 1: make it so clear that that is never going to
37:06
Speaker 1: be the case. And it's also just nice or something
37:10
Speaker 1: that I don't think you see very much to see
37:13
Speaker 1: two women who view the same thing. I don't know,
37:17
Speaker 1: a victory and bipartisanship is Laura Lee and Dorothy's friendship
37:22
Speaker 1: because they they view life in a fundamentally different way,
37:25
Speaker 1: but they appreciate each other. They don't let it ruin
37:28
Speaker 1: their friendship, even though they're constantly like debating is money
37:32
Speaker 1: or fucking more important? Which jury is still out We
37:36
Speaker 1: don't know, uh, but I don't know. I I appreciated
37:41
Speaker 1: how they that could have so easily been played into
37:43
Speaker 1: like constant like cat fight e stuff. Definitely, but they
37:47
Speaker 1: had like actual conversations about it. And you know, when
37:51
Speaker 1: Loria I would try to push her viewpoint on Dorothy,
37:54
Speaker 1: Dorothy be like no, I'm going to, you know, frick
37:58
Speaker 1: the Olympic team, see you lay her because when she
38:00
Speaker 1: does try to do that, she accidentally sents Dorothy up
38:03
Speaker 1: with a child who who I'm pretty sure is like
38:08
Speaker 1: a creep in the making, because he has a few
38:10
Speaker 1: lines where he's like, oh, I appreciate a good looking women,
38:13
Speaker 1: and then he's like, I'll help you because you've got
38:16
Speaker 1: a lot of animal magnetism. Marilyn Monroe accidentally Winnie the
38:22
Speaker 1: Poos herself she gets stuck in a port hole. I
38:27
Speaker 1: was like, I can't believe they're they're Winnie the poohing
38:29
Speaker 1: her or I don't know which came first. Either way,
38:31
Speaker 1: she's a honeypot Winnie the Pooing and she needs a
38:35
Speaker 1: little Christopher Robin to yank her out that was dying
38:41
Speaker 1: at the scene. Yeah, that was really what a treat.
38:45
Speaker 1: Uh Yeah, I mean that really the only thing with
38:47
Speaker 1: that friendship were the main thing with the movie that
38:51
Speaker 1: I felt like wasn't really commentary and was sort of
38:55
Speaker 1: just playing to like, and this is how a movie ends,
38:58
Speaker 1: is the double wedding end. There was like the only
39:02
Speaker 1: major thing that happens in this movie that I was
39:05
Speaker 1: not like that's kind of sure. I guess I guess
39:09
Speaker 1: that that's how movies end at this time. But even
39:11
Speaker 1: that is like, is putting the friendship above either of
39:14
Speaker 1: these relationships, because like, neither woman is um is saying like,
39:19
Speaker 1: you can't be part of my wedding day. We want
39:22
Speaker 1: to do this together. You know, neither neither one is
39:24
Speaker 1: like it's like I'm the star here, it's my day.
39:27
Speaker 1: It's more like it's our day, right, that's true, And
39:30
Speaker 1: they're yeah, they married each other. I mean, maybe that's
39:35
Speaker 1: what the movie is saying that they're really doing. Maybe
39:38
Speaker 1: just coded. Yeah, oh I like that. I guess for me,
39:42
Speaker 1: it boils down to and this is maybe just simply
39:44
Speaker 1: a preference thing, But because I agree that the friendship
39:48
Speaker 1: between them is represented in a by and large positive
39:52
Speaker 1: way where they're constantly defending each other, but they're also
39:55
Speaker 1: challenging each other but in healthy ways, and they general
40:00
Speaker 1: really are trying to help and support each other. What
40:03
Speaker 1: I don't like is that the things that they're trying
40:06
Speaker 1: to do or to get are framed entirely around men.
40:12
Speaker 1: What I prefer, I guess, in like a female friendship
40:15
Speaker 1: story is something like Thelman Louise, where you know, you
40:18
Speaker 1: got to supportive friends and the men have fucked them over,
40:23
Speaker 1: so they're just going to go and shoot up a
40:26
Speaker 1: bunch of you know, convenience stores instead. Sure, that's just
40:29
Speaker 1: my preference, my Caitlin prefers. I mean, I think I'm
40:35
Speaker 1: sure that there's a way you could sort of show
40:39
Speaker 1: a movie like Gentlemen Prefer Blondes as paving the way
40:43
Speaker 1: for other movies that to exist. Of just you know,
40:46
Speaker 1: if there were no movies portraying two women and uh,
40:51
Speaker 1: you know, Ride or Die friendship, I think that you
40:54
Speaker 1: know those movies really quick before we wrap up the discussion,
40:58
Speaker 1: I wanted to give a quick shot out to Lady Beekman.
41:02
Speaker 1: Lady Beakman, I you know you feel for her because
41:06
Speaker 1: even there there's some commentary of Piggy is this hornial
41:11
Speaker 1: dumbass with a lot of diamonds who is actively philandery
41:16
Speaker 1: on his wife who we meet, who is originally very
41:19
Speaker 1: nice to Dorothy and to Lorelai and then later comes
41:23
Speaker 1: back for the Tierra, which I applied her for. Um.
41:28
Speaker 1: I just wanted to give a quick shout out to
41:30
Speaker 1: Lady Beekman, who did nothing to anyone no, Yeah, she
41:34
Speaker 1: just has a creepy old husband. Just let her live. Yeah.
41:38
Speaker 1: A couple of lines of dialogue that I wrote down
41:41
Speaker 1: that I Dorothy says, I like a man who can
41:45
Speaker 1: run faster than I can, which sounds terrifying. No, I
41:50
Speaker 1: want a very slow man. Um personally, Caitlin prefers Sloman.
41:57
Speaker 1: I forget which one of them says this. I think
42:00
Speaker 1: it might be Dorothy. But someone says, if we can't
42:04
Speaker 1: empty his pockets between us, we're not worthy of the
42:07
Speaker 1: name woman. But that's like about the person they're roofing. Yes,
42:12
Speaker 1: it is fair if like two women can't like I've
42:16
Speaker 1: passed out manet and they do so, they don't think
42:21
Speaker 1: that's exactly what they keep the name women. Um Gus
42:26
Speaker 1: says about Lorla, I'm going to make her marry me. Yeah,
42:30
Speaker 1: that was not and love and and there was one
42:34
Speaker 1: little grabby from Malone from Malone that was like, oh yeah.
42:38
Speaker 1: He says to Dorothy, I'm not wrong about you, and
42:41
Speaker 1: you're gonna listen to me, and says this while he's
42:44
Speaker 1: angrily grabbing her arm and turning him, turning her toward him.
42:48
Speaker 1: It's so hard to know. I think they're just playing
42:51
Speaker 1: a complicated game of dominance and submission. Actually, it's fine.
42:58
Speaker 1: We just didn't see the whole contract, seeing like in
43:04
Speaker 1: the sensors cut that out there. Um a quick fun
43:08
Speaker 1: thing that I found on IMDb And maybe Karina you
43:11
Speaker 1: know about this. But a couple of years after Gentlemen
43:13
Speaker 1: Prefer Blonde, Jane Russell was in another movie called Gentleman
43:17
Speaker 1: Mary Brunettes. But it doesn't seem to be a sequel
43:21
Speaker 1: or any type of In no way is it related.
43:24
Speaker 1: She doesn't play the same character. Like Weirdly, Anita Loris
43:27
Speaker 1: did write a sequel to Gentlemen Prefer Blondes called Gentleman
43:30
Speaker 1: Mary Brunette's. But then when it came time to make
43:33
Speaker 1: this movie. I think her niece actually wrote the movie
43:36
Speaker 1: Mary Anita Loose, but they just like throughout the original
43:40
Speaker 1: story because they couldn't get Marilyn Monroe. Um, so they
43:44
Speaker 1: just did something else. I haven't seen that film. Okay, interesting,
43:48
Speaker 1: we gotta take a quick break, but we'll come right back. Okay, Hey,
43:56
Speaker 1: let's talk about it. Whether or not this movie passes
43:58
Speaker 1: the Bechdel test, right, it's interesting. I was reading a
44:01
Speaker 1: lot of criticism of this movie after watching it and
44:05
Speaker 1: getting all my own thoughts, you know, shouted out, etcetera.
44:08
Speaker 1: A lot of critics say this movie does not pass
44:11
Speaker 1: the Backtel test, and they must be, I think, using
44:13
Speaker 1: a different version than we are, perhaps, yeah, because there
44:15
Speaker 1: are certain caveats and variations on on the test. But again,
44:19
Speaker 1: for our sake, it's just a at least two lines
44:23
Speaker 1: between female identifying characters who are not talking about men.
44:29
Speaker 1: Using that standard, I would say the movie does. Yeah.
44:31
Speaker 1: A bunch of times. Well, I would say, if I
44:34
Speaker 1: only found a couple, I think hit me, Okay, here's
44:38
Speaker 1: here we go. Dorothy says, not Europe France, frances in Europe.
44:42
Speaker 1: Lore Lie says, who says it wasn't. Dorothy says, well,
44:46
Speaker 1: you wouldn't say like, oh, where's North America Mexico? Would you?
44:50
Speaker 1: And she's like, well, that's where I wanted to go?
44:52
Speaker 1: I would that passes silly. It's there's a lot of
44:57
Speaker 1: the passes I came up with. It's it's tricky because
45:00
Speaker 1: the subtext of what they're talking about very almost nearly
45:04
Speaker 1: all the time is marriage and men. And because that's
45:08
Speaker 1: the central debate of these characters is how do they
45:10
Speaker 1: view this? Um so I mean, there are some I
45:13
Speaker 1: got like six or seven passes of like on the page.
45:17
Speaker 1: They're not technical about men technically, but the subtext of
45:20
Speaker 1: the whole movie it's hard. Yeah, they might not mention
45:23
Speaker 1: a man's name in the conversation, but I would say
45:25
Speaker 1: almost every single conversation they have is either about a
45:28
Speaker 1: specific man or they're talking about the concept of loving
45:31
Speaker 1: men or finding a man. Passes a few times in
45:34
Speaker 1: theory when they're in the process of roof being malone,
45:37
Speaker 1: they're talking about stealing picks. They're talking about turning up
45:39
Speaker 1: the heat but from a man, and to make a
45:42
Speaker 1: man uncomfortable. So I mean it's it's I mean, the
45:45
Speaker 1: very and as we always say, it's a flawed metric perfect.
45:49
Speaker 1: The whole thing this movie is trying to comment on
45:52
Speaker 1: is like how women perceive marriage and men and how
45:56
Speaker 1: like how to survive and get and live a fulfilling
46:00
Speaker 1: life at this time. So it's kind of I mean,
46:03
Speaker 1: it's a tricky movie to pass, sure, Yeah, for sure,
46:07
Speaker 1: although Lady Beikman and Laura I talk about diamonds. Sure,
46:11
Speaker 1: but yeah, almost every conversation between women is about men,
46:15
Speaker 1: either in subtext or context or like explicitly, but does
46:20
Speaker 1: pass our standards go movie. One quick thing that I
46:25
Speaker 1: wanted to mention is there's a moment where whenever Gus's
46:29
Speaker 1: father is like, hey, they told me you were stupid,
46:31
Speaker 1: and Laura Lie says, I can be smart when it's important,
46:34
Speaker 1: but most men don't like it. Which there are a
46:37
Speaker 1: couple of lines like that that I do appreciate where
46:39
Speaker 1: she kind of like challenges the status quo or she
46:41
Speaker 1: points out a double standard. I would have liked that
46:44
Speaker 1: to happen more. But again, thinking about the movie being three,
46:49
Speaker 1: and yeah, this is paving the way for more progressive
46:52
Speaker 1: texts to come down the pipeline. But um, yeah I didn't.
46:56
Speaker 1: I think I came down too hard on Laura Lie. Um,
47:00
Speaker 1: but that's just because I'm a brunette and women are
47:03
Speaker 1: defined by their hair color. And then can God, yeah,
47:07
Speaker 1: I just I wanted I thought that was that was cool.
47:09
Speaker 1: And the there's a line where she's talking to Gusts
47:12
Speaker 1: and she says, and we touch on this briefly, but
47:15
Speaker 1: I don't wanted to read the quote. It's men like
47:18
Speaker 1: you who have made me the way I am, and
47:19
Speaker 1: if you love me at all, you'd feel sorry for
47:21
Speaker 1: the terrible troubles I've been through instead of holding them
47:24
Speaker 1: against me. So yeah, those are those are moments. I
47:27
Speaker 1: appreciate it great. I feel like that. Yeah, all this
47:30
Speaker 1: entire you know, reaches its logical conclusion by the end
47:34
Speaker 1: of the movie. And I don't know, I thought this
47:37
Speaker 1: movie held held up pretty damn well given that it's
47:41
Speaker 1: over what sixty sixty five years old, um, and a
47:46
Speaker 1: lot of that, I mean, all the typical um prejudices
47:51
Speaker 1: and issues of the era are on full display, where
47:54
Speaker 1: I mean, unfortunately goes without saying that this is an
47:57
Speaker 1: entirely white movie. This is an entirely straight movie. This
47:59
Speaker 1: is you know, all that is fully what it is,
48:04
Speaker 1: uh in nineteen fifty three. But given the time, I
48:07
Speaker 1: was very impressed with this movie, and I would watch
48:10
Speaker 1: it again. Well, let's rate it, speaking of you know,
48:13
Speaker 1: how we fail about it zero to five nipples based
48:17
Speaker 1: on its portrayal and representation of women. I am going
48:23
Speaker 1: to give it, I would say like a two. And
48:30
Speaker 1: maybe it's because I don't really like this movie that
48:33
Speaker 1: maybe I did let it cloud my judgment. But while
48:36
Speaker 1: I do appreciate the female friendship and how it probably
48:40
Speaker 1: did pave the way for more progressive movies about female
48:43
Speaker 1: friendship to be made. I think that because the goals
48:49
Speaker 1: of the women are defined entirely by and framed entirely
48:53
Speaker 1: around the type of men that they're after. I think also,
48:58
Speaker 1: this movie was funded by the dime industry, Like is
49:02
Speaker 1: that true? Probably not, but but like what it's okay,
49:08
Speaker 1: it was funded by twenties century Fox. But it it
49:12
Speaker 1: does like actually promote the names of several diamond Tiffany. Yeah,
49:17
Speaker 1: so I just Kalen didn't like the movie. I didn't
49:21
Speaker 1: like the movie. I do appreciate a few of the
49:24
Speaker 1: things that does it. You know, it does challenge different
49:27
Speaker 1: gender specific double standards. It does show a positive female friendship.
49:33
Speaker 1: I don't know the fact that the only thing we
49:35
Speaker 1: really know about them is the type of men that
49:37
Speaker 1: they want, and the only thing we see them do
49:39
Speaker 1: is things to either land a man or in some
49:43
Speaker 1: cases several different men. If you're talking about Laura La,
49:46
Speaker 1: which is fine, Hey, if you want to fuck a
49:49
Speaker 1: bunch of people, do it. Also, Gus is like really
49:52
Speaker 1: possessive of her and like jealous, and he's like you
49:55
Speaker 1: need a shap around because I don't trust you, because
49:57
Speaker 1: you're a woman who's hot, and so you're probably gonna
50:00
Speaker 1: up to be fair, he cannot trust her, true, Maybe
50:05
Speaker 1: he's not like stereotyping her. Maybe he's just like seeing
50:08
Speaker 1: her flirt with other which that's based on and there
50:13
Speaker 1: is that rufi scene. But also why would you send
50:16
Speaker 1: like to chaperone someone like, you know, who's really going
50:19
Speaker 1: to hold her accountable, her best friend in the world.
50:22
Speaker 1: It was also like DTF, like crazy, It was like
50:25
Speaker 1: the morning, let me about the horniest person she does.
50:31
Speaker 1: This is gonna work out great. So yeah, I'm gonna
50:33
Speaker 1: I'm gonna probably this is probably too low, but I'm
50:35
Speaker 1: sticking with the two nipples, and I'm going to give
50:38
Speaker 1: one to eat of mc gal's, one to Marilyn Monroe
50:41
Speaker 1: and one to Jane Russell. Cool. Well, I guess I
50:45
Speaker 1: I don't know what a five would be, and I
50:48
Speaker 1: but I'm going to say four. Yeah, cool, I think
50:52
Speaker 1: I'm gonna split the diff do with three, maybe three
50:55
Speaker 1: and a half. I think that it's something we didn't
50:58
Speaker 1: really karany you spoke to a few times. Was even
51:01
Speaker 1: the way this movie is framed is a little bit
51:05
Speaker 1: different and not how we're used to seeing. I mean, certainly,
51:08
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe and Jane Russell are fully made up and
51:11
Speaker 1: gorgeous this whole movie. The costumes are incredible, But the
51:15
Speaker 1: male gaze. I feel like this movie is aware of
51:17
Speaker 1: the male gaze and subverts it several times in a
51:22
Speaker 1: way that is like really effective and interesting and definitely
51:25
Speaker 1: not typical of the time. The whole ain't there anyone
51:29
Speaker 1: here for love? Scene that was like so cool and
51:33
Speaker 1: um exciting and hopefully cathartic for Jane Russell, Um, who
51:37
Speaker 1: is you know, for once not the center of you know,
51:41
Speaker 1: she's controlling the camera and where the camera goes instead
51:44
Speaker 1: of being pursued by it. And lor and Dorothy are
51:47
Speaker 1: the only ones who kind of break the fourth wall
51:49
Speaker 1: in the musical scenes, and it just I don't know,
51:52
Speaker 1: they felt fully in control of the movie and generally
51:57
Speaker 1: the story, and we're equipped to solve the problem is
52:00
Speaker 1: that they were sent to although of course you're you're
52:03
Speaker 1: totally right that they're sort of defined by their views
52:06
Speaker 1: of men in the world. Um, so I'm gonna do.
52:09
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do three and a half and I'll give
52:12
Speaker 1: two to Jane one in Maryland and half to Lady Beekman. Yeah,
52:19
Speaker 1: she earned it. She worked hard. I'm getting I don't
52:22
Speaker 1: know anything about it. Well, Corna, thank you so much
52:25
Speaker 1: for being here, Thanks for having so much fun. Plug
52:29
Speaker 1: whatever you want. Well. My book in which I read
52:31
Speaker 1: about this film and others made by Jane Russell Seduction, sex,
52:35
Speaker 1: Lies and Stardom in Howard Hughes's Hollywood. It will be
52:38
Speaker 1: in your local bookstore. It's great. I can't wait to
52:42
Speaker 1: read it. Where can people fall you online? And oh
52:44
Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Karina Longworth and you can find
52:48
Speaker 1: my podcast. You must remember this on iTunes. Yeah, people
52:52
Speaker 1: listen to it. It's so good, three years of listening strong.
52:58
Speaker 1: Thank you. You can follow us on social media at
53:02
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast. You can go to our patreonic a Matreon
53:07
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53:10
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53:13
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53:16
Speaker 1: to our merch store t public dot com slash the
53:21
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast and you've got you know your favorites, feminist icon,
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Speaker 1: queer icon, feminist icon, Alfred Molina, all the designs you
53:29
Speaker 1: could ever want, the stuff, So check that out and
53:33
Speaker 1: what hey, we'll talk to you next time. Thanks for listening,
53:36
Speaker 1: to see you later by