Latest / World Ablaze with George Fontes / Ex-Air Force Intel Officer: Cold War F-16s, Desert Storm and Iran Strategy (Michael Makatura)

Transcript

Ex-Air Force Intel Officer: Cold War F-16s, Desert Storm and Iran Strategy (Michael Makatura) · World Ablaze with George Fontes

• 0:00
  welcome to another world ablaze um hope everyone's appreciates uh what i'm doing here with all the
• 0:13
  guests today i have a very good guest here uh mr michael mack known as mac last name macatora
• 0:20
  served as executive officer of the 10th tactical fighter squadron known as the fighting 10th at
• 0:26
  Han Air Base, West Germany, served alongside F-16 pilots, maintainers, and military families
• 0:31
  who stood on the front lines of NATO's defense against the Warsaw Pact.
• 0:36
  His experience spans everything from nuclear deterrence, missions, and Cold War readiness
• 0:41
  exercises to the squadron's deployment to the Persian Gulf and combat operations during
• 0:46
  Desert Storm.
• 0:48
  And in addition, he, I believe, finished his career as an intelligence officer.
• 0:53
  So I'm going to definitely ask him about that and how he feels about what's going on.
• 0:58
  And I'll bring him on here shortly.
• 1:00
  But as usual, as you know, got to read the sponsors, everybody.
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• 1:47
  And without further ado, let's bring Mac on.
• 1:51
  Mr. Mac Atura, how are you?
• 1:53
  George I'm well how are you I'm doing very well I tried to give you a decent intro but man that
• 1:58
  was a great intro I can't wait for my wife to hear it it was very impressive thanks I fumbled a
• 2:04
  little bit that was great but yeah you know listen you and I kind of messaged back and forth a little
• 2:09
  bit and I've been super busy so I have been wanting to get you on I'm very interested in
• 2:15
  your experience because your experience being that serving in the Air Force with the fight
• 2:21
  and 10th. And on the tail end of the Cold War, this is what was interesting to me. Because you
• 2:25
  got that transition, you still got to feel what it was like to serve in the military during the
• 2:30
  Cold War era, and then transition into the Persian Gulf era. And then ever since then,
• 2:36
  the Middle East has just been even more of a mess. But I'm sure we'll get down to that.
• 2:41
  And then finishing your career, I believe, am I correct in that you finished your career as an
• 2:44
  intel officer? That's right. Yeah. So let's start here because I know you wrote a book,
• 2:48
  you have a memoir coming out, correct?
• 2:50
  And that was titled,
• 2:52
  you want to go ahead and tell everybody what that was?
• 2:54
  It's called The Fight in 10th, Cold War to Desert Storm.
• 2:57
  And it is about those three years that I spent
• 3:00
  at the 10th Tactical Fighter Squadron.
• 3:03
  And you've categorized it correctly.
• 3:05
  We were at the tail end of the Cold War.
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  We were training to fight the Soviet invasion
• 3:11
  in Central Europe.
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  And then peace broke out all over.
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  And we ended up pivoting to fight a different war.
• 3:18
  in the Middle East, in Iraq.
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  So here's what's interesting for me,
• 3:25
  and I think my audience,
• 3:26
  and I think this is going to be very educational
• 3:28
  for those who were born later in the generations,
• 3:30
  because I remember when the wall fell.
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  I was in high school,
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  and I remember my high school teacher
• 3:35
  literally made us watch the broadcast.
• 3:37
  And then it was recorded,
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  and then we went to other classes.
• 3:41
  Other teachers were playing it on the screens.
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  It was a big thing,
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  and I don't think a lot of people realize
• 3:45
  what the Cold War was
• 3:46
  and what it was like over there in West Germany.
• 3:48
  at that time. Can you please tell everybody your experience as a serviceman in the Air Force at
• 3:54
  that time and your interactions with those around you? I mean, living in a Western society based on
• 4:01
  capitalism versus right across from you, you pretty much got communism across the wall.
• 4:06
  Yeah, yeah, you bet. Maybe a little bit of background context to kind of address the
• 4:14
  stuff specifically that you had asked about. So all of us are aware that during World War II,
• 4:20
  we were allied with Britain, France, and the Soviet Union, which was kind of an odd fellow,
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  right? And we were fighting the Axis powers, which were Germany, Italy, and Japan.
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  And at the cessation of World War II, with the allies being successful and Germany being
• 4:40
  vanquished. Germany was broken up into four sectors by those allied powers. So there was a
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  British sector, a French sector, US sector, and a Russian sector. And the capital city of Berlin was
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  similarly broken up into four sectors. Almost immediately, the Soviet Union segregated their
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  sectors. So the Russian or the Soviet sector of Germany became what was known as East Germany,
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  and their sector of Berlin became known as East Berlin.
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  And at that point, the world bifurcated into two polar superpowers,
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  the West led by the United States and the East or the Eastern Bloc led by the Soviet Union.
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  And so what ended up emanating from that is 45 years of what was referred to as the Cold War.
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  And it was referred to as the Cold War because those two superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union, never actually shot bullets directly at each other.
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  Now, what historians will tell you is that most of the conflicts that occurred across the globe were proxy conflicts for West versus East, U.S. versus Soviet Union, capitalism versus communism.
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  And so that certainly was the case in Korea, in Vietnam, even in Angola.
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  All around the world, all of these conflicts were really just proxy wars for the two predominant bipolar philosophies of how man should be governed.
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  And so that was the Cold War.
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  And what occurred for 45 years in what we know as West Germany, we essentially occupied the country.
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  When I got over there, I got over there in June of 1988.
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  And Germany was essentially an occupied country 43 years after the cessation of World War II.
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  There were NATO and U.S. service people and bases everywhere.
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  And we were there to ensure that the Soviet Union did not re-attack Western Europe.
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  and specifically the geography of Germany there was a place called Fulda the Fulda Gap
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  which is a large valley and plain in central Germany where it was assessed if the Russian and
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  Eastern Bloc tanks rolled into Central Europe they were going to come through the Fulda Gap
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  And so our job was to ensure that that did not happen and to be a deterrent force as well as a counterattacking force, both conventionally and with nuclear weapons.
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  So if, in fact, World War III had started back then and the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries had attacked Central Europe, we were part of the tip of the spear that was to deter and then fight back.
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  And so that's what we were there doing. And I will tell you that it was not a casual, passive exercise on our part.
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  It was an active front of the mind day to day routine and regimen where we were practicing and being evaluated and tested to ensure that we were ready to repel a Soviet attack and then to counterattack on our own again, whether that was conventional or nuclear.
• 8:27
  So does that help a little bit?
• 8:28
  no no i i completely understand and thank you for that background um because for many they i don't
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  you know again there are those who live through it i i obviously caught the back end of it being
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  my age but at the same time you know it's there's so many people that were born later that that they
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  hear about the cold war they don't quite understand that it was a decades long like posturing between
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  Soviet Union and pretty much America.
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  The two superpowers.
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  I mean, the whole world was like a breath away from a giant World War III conflict, as you said,
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  like at any time.
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  And then we're also talking about things like the Cuban Missile Crisis and everything else
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  that came from that conflict, that non-kinetic conflict.
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  But it was real.
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  And it was a race to see who would hold control of the entire world.
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  And that's where the nuclear weapons came in because basically it came to like, all right, well, you have some, we have some, but now we have 20.
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  Oh, they have 20.
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  And then you have 100.
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  It was just how you can keep the devil at bay, so to speak, I guess.
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  Yeah, you're right on.
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  And that aura of nuclear destruction, we wore it like a heavy coat.
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  And the world wore it like a heavy coat.
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  And you're exactly describing where one nuclear weapon is an issue, 10 is a problem.
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  We had thousands.
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  Both sides had thousands.
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  Crazy.
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  And what ended up occurring is something that the world labeled as MAD, both literally and figuratively.
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  But MAD stood for mutually assured destruction.
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  And so the concept was we both have so many nuclear weapons that are pointed to at each other that it would be impossible for either side to stop them all.
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  So if, in fact, one nuke got launched, the retribution that came from the other side would essentially lead to mutually assured destruction.
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  And from that mad.
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  Yeah, you know what?
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  I'm sorry to cut you off.
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  That was a very important description of what it actually was at the time.
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  Because that is the only thing that kept us from basically fighting each other.
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  That's right.
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  Was the fear of the total destruction of the entire planet.
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  Yeah, the specter of that, that nobody was going to survive it.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  May I ask you, sir?
• 10:57
  Sure.
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  Can you please explain how it was being deployed and serving over there at Hunter for space?
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  How is it that your unit specifically was a part of that deterrence?
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  What was it, outside just having the presence there, what was it that was making your deployment and the fight intent so important in this Cold War era right there?
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  I think it's a couple of things.
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  One of the things that we kind of like to throw out there is we were the closest United States Air Force base to Moscow.
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  Now, that said, we were a long way from Moscow.
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  So yes, I guess technically we were the closest, but that doesn't really get to answering your question.
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  So our squadron was a squadron of F-16s, which in those days was the leading edge of lethal fighter technology.
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  Even now, 40 years later, the F-16 is an important part of our arsenal because it is a highly capable aircraft.
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  What made us important, I think, was that we had a triple dock or a triple mission tasking.
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  So we were tasked with air-to-ground, so conventional air-to-ground missions, which meant that if, in fact, Russia or so – really, it's more appropriate to call them the Soviet Union.
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  If the Soviet Union attacked, we were scheduled to go out and drop bombs on power stations and electrical grids and lines of communication and roadways and bridges, et cetera, et cetera, with conventional weapons.
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  In order to do that effectively, you had to be effective at air-to-air fighting because as you are on your way towards your target, you're going to be confronted with enemy fighters and you need to be able to defend yourself and shoot them down.
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  So that was our second mission was air-to-air, air superiority.
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  And then our third mission was the nuclear air mission And there was a thing back in the day I actually don know if it still exists or not but it was called the Single Integrated Operational Plan or the PSYOP
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  And the PSYOP was a comprehensive nuclear plan for World War III. And it involved all of the
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  US weapons across all of the US services. So ICBMs and Navy launched nuclear missiles and
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  army tactical nukes and, of course, the nuclear bombs that we carried. And so as part of that
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  PSYOP, we were assigned a certain number of targets. Most of our targets were in East Germany
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  and Czechoslovakia, which at the time was one country. And so the F-16, specifically where we
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  were located there in Central Europe really was the front line of air forces who had the ability
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  to thwart a Soviet attack, but also to flip the script and go on the offensive, whether that was
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  conventional or nuclear. I'm sure you have some stories. Was there any stories that you can share
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  anyway that made you all like the hair on the back of your neck stand up.
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  Like suddenly you got an alert or something that, you know,
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  there was something really close where you had to respond to.
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  Ended up being nothing maybe or whatever.
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  But did you ever have any of those situations come up with your certainty?
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  Absolutely.
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  I mean, the reality is we were well-trained and well-prepared.
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  So it wasn't kind of jittery nerves,
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  But any human being who has a nuclear weapon under them is going to have that tingle, if you will.
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  And there were a number of things that occurred.
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  We exercised, let me put that a different way.
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  There were tactical evaluations and exercises that were very, very real.
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  And there were a lot of eyes on you.
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  And so you knew that the stakes were exceptionally high.
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  There were other things like when Libya bombed the discotheque in West Berlin, our squadron was tasked to go drop bombs on Libya.
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  And so anytime you're preparing for those combat operations for certain, your attention is up.
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  And then one of the things that was really interesting to all of us, so the Army, the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, the 11th ACR, was stationed in the Folda Gap.
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  They were literally the tripwire if World War III was going to start.
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  And so that we had a familiarization with who they were and their mission and how they did it, they flew two Black Hawk helicopters over to Haan, picked a bunch of us up, and flew us back to the border right there at the Folda Gap.
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  And before we went in for the mission briefing, the Blackhawks literally sat down on the western bank of the Elba River, and we were about 100 yards from the border.
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  And as we looked across the Elba River and we looked across at the border, you could see the border fence, you could see towers, you could see East German and Russian soldiers with machine guns.
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  And what was really kind of poignant and almost surreal is there was a bridge next to the tower and there were civilians standing up on that bridge.
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  And so we're literally standing 100 yards from fellow human beings and we are completely free and they are not.
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  And in fact, are being guarded by men with machine guns.
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  That was really interesting.
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  And then one of the other interesting things that occurred at the time, the 11th ACR would fly what was called Exciter missions.
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  And this is where they would take a helicopter on our side of the border and scream towards the border.
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  And they would excite the Soviet and the East German defenses to see how they reacted to that.
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  And the way that they reacted is they would send up their own helicopter who would also scream to the border.
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  And both helicopters would stop.
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  right there at the elder river staring at each other and yeah it was crazy and as as you're
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  watching this go on you know at the time i was probably 24 years old right so we're young men
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  and um they're young men over there too right and so you got these young men with testosterone
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  flowing through their brains and shit happens right and so you're literally standing there
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  staring at each other and you're going, holy crap, right?
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  If somebody gets itchy here or loses their mind for a moment.
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  Yeah.
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  So, so that was very real.
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  Yeah.
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  I was just, I mean, I don't know if it gets any more tense than that because like back
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  then that situation, anyone who lost their nerve literally would have triggered a massive
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  war.
• 18:01
  Yeah.
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  You know, you would hope that there are fail safes in place that would have, but, but yeah,
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  It was, you know, the potential that was standing on that side of the river.
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  It was pretty tense.
• 18:12
  Yeah, man.
• 18:13
  How did it make you feel to see the people on the other side that were guarded, that were living under the thumb of the Soviet Union?
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  I will tell you, George, you know, I have that memory is very visceral.
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  Even now, 40 years later, it's especially ironic based on some of the current tenor of our politics.
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  and socialism and communism being talked about so much here.
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  But it was, yeah, it was unbelievable.
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  I mean, just literally, just think of a football field, right?
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  You're on one end and somebody's on the other goal line.
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  And where I stand, I'm completely free to live my life however I see fit.
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  And over there, there are other adults with guns regulating what you say,
• 19:04
  where you go, and what you do.
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  And we're 100 yards apart.
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  So I've never lost that memory.
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  Football fields, actually, it looks big.
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  But once you're standing on the field, it's not that big.
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  I mean, thinking about 100 yards, really, it's not as big as it seems once you're there.
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  Not at all.
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  I actually have a picture of that.
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  So we took a picture.
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  And one of the things that occurred is as we were standing there, I waved.
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  And the people on the other side kind of waved back.
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  And there was this point where our humanity touched.
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  And I think both of us recognized the incredible differences in our lives that were completely man-made.
• 19:51
  There's a couple of things here, too.
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  Because I don't know if a lot of people realize the people that were on their side didn't get a choice of what system they were under.
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  It was just like, hey, Germany's now divided up and you just happened to be here.
• 20:03
  That's right.
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  That's what happened. And those people that were under the Russian or Soviet side, they just got blocked off and they were kept over there.
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  For 45 years, three generations of Eastern Europeans were under the thumb of the Soviet Union.
• 20:22
  And that was pervasive in their lives. It wasn't just they couldn't go anywhere.
• 20:28
  It was the spoils of communism are poverty.
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  And so for 45 years, three generations of Eastern Europeans were stuck in poverty, essentially.
• 20:41
  I don't know if you did have any chance to interact with people on a more personal level or get up close to those that were on their side.
• 20:49
  I mean, I know it was heavily guarded, and there was definitely a chance of anyone from over there being killed just for probably, like, if they got caught getting too close to you or even shaking your hand.
• 20:59
  But did you ever get a chance to interact with anybody under the thumb of the communist system under the Soviet Union?
• 21:05
  And if you, I mean, did you?
• 21:07
  Yeah.
• 21:08
  So, no.
• 21:09
  Okay.
• 21:10
  There was the, we were, we did have the opportunity to visit Berlin.
• 21:14
  So there was a corridor of an autobahn that went to Berlin.
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  And you could interact with them there.
• 21:21
  But I actually had an interaction with a Chinese communist civilian once.
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  and that was very interesting,
• 21:30
  but maybe that's a conversation for a different day.
• 21:33
  Maybe.
• 21:35
  So I just wanted to,
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  so what I'm trying to get is,
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  I don't know what your full experience was with that,
• 21:40
  but I wanted to know if you could elaborate more
• 21:42
  based on where you were
• 21:44
  and you living under this capitalist free system
• 21:46
  versus a communist system.
• 21:48
  If you can probably convey to the audience more
• 21:50
  what that difference really was based on your experience.
• 21:54
  Yeah, so one of the things
• 21:57
  that makes capitalism so great is that each of us, each of us individuals can conduct economic
• 22:06
  transactions that agree with the two of us. So if you want to sell me a bottle of that terrific
• 22:13
  alcohol that you've got behind you and I'm willing to buy it, then we both benefit from that.
• 22:19
  That one in the blue, yeah. Then we both benefit from that, right? And so it's essentially millions
• 22:25
  and millions of people making their own decisions on what is good for them that creates a tide that
• 22:31
  lifts all ships. On the eastern side, in communism and in the Soviet Union, it was centrally planned.
• 22:39
  So individuals did not make decisions on what was good for them. The state made those decisions,
• 22:43
  and the state is inherently bad at making those decisions. One of the things I kid about all the
• 22:49
  time is, what does the government do so well that you want them to do more of it? And the answer is
• 22:54
  nothing. And so those people lived in food shortages, in a lack of options and choices.
• 23:05
  Everything that they had was produced by a worker who was being forced to work in that industry.
• 23:10
  So their products were lousy. They drove little boxy, horrible automobiles while we were driving
• 23:19
  Porsches and BMWs and Fords, right? And so it was, and if your audience has seen any of the movies,
• 23:29
  watched the movie Spy Game, watched Bridge of Spies, any of them, you'll get a flavor for what
• 23:36
  it was like. And that's true. Now, I will tell you about an interesting interaction that I have
• 23:40
  with Western German, with West German citizens. So I lived on the economy, which means I lived
• 23:46
  in a house that was owned by a West German family. And when the wall came down, so you were in high
• 23:52
  school, I was there. It was that close, right? And when the wall came down, we expected that the
• 24:00
  West Germans would be jubilant and excited and celebrating, and they weren't. And it was really
• 24:06
  interesting. And so my landlords, Klaus and Martina, and I said to them, so tell me about
• 24:14
  this, right? Isn't this terrific that the wall is coming down and that you're going to be able to be
• 24:17
  reunited with family that you haven't seen in many, many years? And their response was,
• 24:25
  we are happy for them and we want them to be free, but we want them to be free over there.
• 24:32
  And I said, okay, well, wow. Okay. Tell me more about that. And they said, look,
• 24:37
  we have been rebuilding our society for the last 45 years and we've now kind of arrived at
• 24:45
  a very good standard of living. Those people are going to want everything that we have and
• 24:50
  they're going to want it tomorrow and they're going to want us to pay for it. So we are really
• 24:53
  thrilled that they're free and we are willing to help them kind of re-assimilate into the West,
• 25:00
  but we want them to do it over there. And I thought, wow, that's pretty real politic right
• 25:05
  that's an interesting position.
• 25:08
  And that's a huge contrast to what you see in modern politics,
• 25:11
  what we see today.
• 25:13
  And,
• 25:14
  you know,
• 25:14
  important for people to understand that after World War II,
• 25:17
  I mean,
• 25:18
  all of Europe was going through a rebuilding period.
• 25:21
  You know,
• 25:22
  most of Germany was decimated,
• 25:23
  the United Kingdom,
• 25:24
  et cetera.
• 25:25
  So that makes a lot of sense.
• 25:27
  They,
• 25:28
  they,
• 25:28
  they fought and worked hard to build up their side.
• 25:30
  But I mean,
• 25:31
  it's a bit crazy to like get to that point and go,
• 25:34
  nope,
• 25:35
  They can do it, but stay there.
• 25:36
  We don't want you here.
• 25:38
  Yeah.
• 25:39
  It was unexpected.
• 25:41
  It was very interesting.
• 25:42
  And obviously, that memory and that conversation has never left me either.
• 25:46
  Yeah, that's very interesting.
• 25:47
  So let's jump to some of what we're dealing with in current events here in the U.S.
• 25:52
  I going to go back to some of your experience because I do want to hear about your Persian golf experience and whatnot But some of what you saying here ties a lot into it and you kind of alluded to it earlier but ties into what we dealing with in the US and politics now
• 26:06
  We're talking about, obviously, the DSA and their rise of popularity
• 26:10
  and how they somehow infiltrated the Democrat Party,
• 26:14
  basically like a giant Trojan horse using them to get a platform.
• 26:18
  And I don't want to get too deep in the weeds of politics
• 26:21
  because I don't want to have, I'm not sure where you're at,
• 26:23
  but it doesn't matter.
• 26:24
  I just want to talk about facts and what's going on.
• 26:26
  And then you can tell me how you feel based on your experiences,
• 26:28
  what you saw,
• 26:29
  how that translates.
• 26:30
  And then,
• 26:31
  you know,
• 26:31
  so we can also talk about New York and mom,
• 26:33
  Donnie and whatnot.
• 26:34
  And he's,
• 26:35
  he is sticking more towards being a democratic socialist,
• 26:38
  but still,
• 26:39
  how do you feel after,
• 26:41
  after seeing what you saw during the cold war and then fast forward to now,
• 26:45
  and it seems like America or the youth is trying to move forward and
• 26:49
  adopting this socialist agenda.
• 26:50
  agenda. And we have all these influencers trying to peddle the socialist message and turn our
• 26:56
  country into something that it absolutely was not built on and doesn't represent whatsoever.
• 27:01
  Yeah. What can you tell everybody about how you feel about that?
• 27:04
  So let me give you a little bit of a disclaimer. I think one of the things we're suffering through
• 27:09
  today in our country is the inability to civilly talk and debate each other without it resorting to
• 27:18
  name calling or whatever. I agree. That's true.
• 27:22
  I think we've just lost that. And I think that that's a shame. When somebody doesn't disagree
• 27:27
  with us, we don't enter into a discussion to share points of view. We yell at them,
• 27:33
  we yell past them, and we call them idiots and evil and all of that stuff. I think that's a real
• 27:38
  problem in our society today.
• 27:39
  Yeah, we've lost the ability to have true discourse.
• 27:42
  That's exactly right. And so because of that, I try to model what I preach,
• 27:47
  especially we have five kids and, and those kids now are adults. And so I try hard to model,
• 27:53
  um, the right behaviors. And so I try really hard not to, um, resort to ad hominem attacks
• 28:03
  and name calling and all of that stuff. Okay. So that's my disclaimer and my preamble,
• 28:08
  which your audience might guess I'm about to violate. Um, so, um, your time, you can,
• 28:15
  You can say whatever you like.
• 28:17
  And I know that you value radical candor, right?
• 28:23
  And so I'm going to be radically candid with my opinion.
• 28:27
  Yeah.
• 28:28
  And I'll try not too hard to bash anybody.
• 28:31
  But I think that this romance with the DSA and with socialism, I think it is a Trojan horse, by the way.
• 28:40
  I think based on the entirety of human history and what we know in very great detail about the last several hundred years is absolutely the stupidest decision and opinion that the world has ever seen.
• 28:58
  seen. To believe that DSA, to believe socialism is a good answer, you actually have to suspend
• 29:08
  the entirety of human history and all of the evidence in front of you.
• 29:14
  And so I think it's a shame. What's an interesting question, and by the way, one of the reasons that
• 29:21
  I'm so candid about it is I think the stakes are really high. And I think that if we do not wake
• 29:28
  up to this and immediately start repelling this infatuation that we are going to be in a war,
• 29:37
  a civil war. And I don't want to see that happen for lots of obvious reasons.
• 29:43
  Now, what becomes a really interesting question, George, is how do we get here?
• 29:46
  Right? And I think we got here in a couple of ways. We live in the most affluent society
• 29:54
  in the history of the world. And we are so affluent, we are so blessed at this point,
• 30:01
  that we don't really spend our time and our efforts sustaining life. We spend most of our
• 30:10
  time entertaining ourselves. And so I think we have lost the bubble on what it takes to sustain
• 30:20
  life to sustain freedom, to sustain liberty. We just take it for granted now and let's turn on the
• 30:26
  next YouTube video and whatever, right? I think that's one way that we got here. I think that the
• 30:32
  other way that we've gotten here is there has been a lowering of our standards for character
• 30:39
  and integrity over the last, I don't know, pick a number of years, but certainly decades, right?
• 30:46
  And that bleeds over into capitalism as well. And so we have gotten so greedy as capitalists
• 30:57
  that we've shut a lot of people out of the game. If you ever play the game Monopoly,
• 31:03
  I'm sure you have, right? Essentially, the way you win that game is you obliterate everybody else,
• 31:09
  right? You don't just win, you win because everybody else is bankrupt, right?
• 31:14
  If you just kind of think through that from a civics problem, as soon as 51% of the people become despondent and hopeless, they might as well try to play another game.
• 31:26
  And so I think that that's a part of how we got here too, is I think that there is a significant portion of our fellow citizens who are now so far behind the eight ball that they're saying, screw it, we might as well try something else.
• 31:41
  So that said, though, I understand the impulse.
• 31:46
  I think we need to do things to rebalance the scales so that our fellow citizens do not feel like that.
• 31:57
  But I can tell everybody who can hear my voice that socialism is not the answer.
• 32:03
  We will be equal under socialism.
• 32:06
  We will all be equally impoverished.
• 32:08
  i'm i mean honestly you and i align on on this and uh i don't think i could have said that much
• 32:17
  better um and here's here's the thing that's interesting and the reason why i asked this
• 32:22
  question is because you literally served during that tail end of the cold war and i've had many
• 32:27
  people try to clap back at me and say well there's a difference between communism and socialism but
• 32:31
  the problem is socialism always usually leads to communism talk about fold-out social semantics
• 32:35
  Yeah, those are some antics.
• 32:37
  And so I wanted your opinion based on your experience because you have that experience.
• 32:41
  You were able to see the people, like you said, 100 yards away, like right there.
• 32:44
  You saw what they went through.
• 32:45
  I mean, you were so close to it.
• 32:47
  I think Ronald Reagan said this the first time, but when the wall fell, nobody ran east.
• 32:54
  No.
• 32:55
  Nobody.
• 32:56
  Everybody ran west, right?
• 32:58
  And we actually 90 miles off – so I live in Florida – 90 miles off our shore, we have an absolutely great object lesson.
• 33:08
  So for 45 years after dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan has become a model of capitalist success in a leading-edge country.
• 33:20
  Cuba is Cuba.
• 33:22
  just so look at these you know you referenced that germ that europe had to rebuild right
• 33:28
  look at all of the countries that were involved in world war and world war ii and the rebuilding
• 33:33
  that they've done over the last 45 years and then look at cuba over the last 45 years of communism
• 33:37
  that should tell you just about everything you need to know about which of these systems
• 33:42
  is the greatest common good yeah i i mean we have i mean just in our southern hemisphere we got we
• 33:48
  We got Cuba, Venezuela, Argentina.
• 33:50
  Those are three major examples of all great nations with great resources that literally turn into what they are because of socialism.
• 33:59
  Yeah.
• 34:00
  And it's not close, George.
• 34:01
  It's a route.
• 34:02
  Yeah.
• 34:03
  I mean, these socialist countries are cratered.
• 34:05
  They're cratered.
• 34:07
  And you just got to look.
• 34:09
  It's sad.
• 34:11
  It really is sad.
• 34:12
  And that's one of the reasons, you know, and I'll get off this pretty soon because I do want to hear more about your experience.
• 34:18
  But I call Mom Donnie, for example, an experiment.
• 34:22
  I don't know how serious the guy is in what he's peddling, but to be represented as a Democratic Socialist, you know, and then now you have AOC literally saying she's a Democratic Socialist.
• 34:33
  Bernie Sanders always was.
• 34:34
  I don't understand the tie-in between him and the Democratic Party.
• 34:37
  And this isn't me bashing the Democrats because I believe we need balance.
• 34:40
  So we do need two sides, two opinions.
• 34:42
  I get it.
• 34:43
  It's when the balance is tilted too far to the other,
• 34:45
  one side of the other is when we have issues.
• 34:47
  But, you know, and people can say a thing about Republicans and MAGA.
• 34:51
  It's like, well, you guys have your fringe.
• 34:52
  Okay, cool.
• 34:53
  I'm not going to dispute any of that.
• 34:55
  But to go to the lengths of, you know,
• 34:58
  living in this great democratic republic
• 35:00
  to where you're willing to adopt a socialist ideology
• 35:03
  just to get more votes and gain more popularity to reach the youth
• 35:06
  does not make any sense to me.
• 35:09
  Especially when the history has been written.
• 35:10
  It's not like it's the results of socialism and communism have been hidden from anybody.
• 35:16
  It's there.
• 35:18
  I think the Democratic Party got sucked in by the Trojan horse and now they don't know what to do.
• 35:22
  I believe that.
• 35:23
  Because the barbarians are in the gates and now they don't know, you know, to cry or wind their watch.
• 35:28
  So I hope they can turn that around.
• 35:30
  I really do.
• 35:30
  And it looks like they're starting to do that.
• 35:32
  But I hope it's not too late because now we do have some candidates on the ballot for the general election November.
• 35:37
  and let's hope the right decisions are made.
• 35:41
  Yeah, I agree.
• 35:42
  And so that's enough politics for right now.
• 35:44
  We'll dive into some more stuff later.
• 35:47
  So let's get back to your service though.
• 35:48
  So I didn't ask you this though.
• 35:51
  How did you feel when that wall,
• 35:53
  like you kind of touched on when that wall fell
• 35:55
  and it felt like the Cold War was done?
• 35:58
  How did you feel?
• 35:59
  Yeah, it was, I know I've used the word surreal
• 36:02
  a couple of times,
• 36:03
  but I think it's an accurate word to use.
• 36:06
  It was really interesting because literally we had been laser focused on preparing to fight World War III.
• 36:15
  And almost overnight, the term we used back then was peace was breaking out all over as opposed to war breaking out all over.
• 36:24
  Peace was breaking out all over.
• 36:25
  And we were literally like, wow, this is kind of incredible, right?
• 36:31
  And we were living in the days where it was Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, Pope John Paul II, and then folks like Lech Walesa in Poland who were rising up and who were putting tons of pressure on the Eastern Bloc, on the Soviet Union.
• 36:47
  And then lo and behold, this premier named Mikhail Gorbachev in the Soviet Union starts to talk about policies like glasnost and perestroika, openness and change, transformation.
• 37:01
  And these world leaders met there in the middle, and it all just disintegrated, right?
• 37:06
  And literally, boom, it was over.
• 37:09
  And we were like, okay, cool.
• 37:14
  All right, well, what's next?
• 37:15
  and all of us were assuming that we would just be given different assignments somewhere else in the
• 37:21
  world and in the world would kind of recalibrate and we would figure out what our next assignment
• 37:26
  was and then of course uh you know iraq and kuwait happened and we had to pivot in that direction but
• 37:32
  yeah it was it was it was really kind of surreal like wow really it's over okay cool yeah i know
• 37:40
  I know Gorbachev got criticized by the old guard of the USSR, right, for what he did.
• 37:45
  But I think he saw the writing on the wall.
• 37:47
  He saw the change.
• 37:48
  He saw the change in powers.
• 37:51
  Yeah.
• 37:51
  Yeah.
• 37:53
  I think their economy was in shambles.
• 37:55
  And if you believe some of the historians, essentially what we did in this kind of arms race where we just kept ratcheting up the technology and the number of weapons is we basically,
• 38:07
  we drove them to an economic point where they could no longer keep up.
• 38:11
  And so he knew something had to change because they were just running out of resources.
• 38:16
  Crazy that after all that being said, though,
• 38:19
  they never really became a true democratic state, though.
• 38:23
  I mean, we've had Putin there for, I forgot how many years now.
• 38:27
  And he was an old KGB officer, right?
• 38:29
  Right, a complete authoritarian.
• 38:31
  He's trying to play off like he isn't, but he is.
• 38:33
  Yeah. So let's let's let's move over to your deployment in the Persian Gulf, because that must have been a huge contrast from, you know, we're having a big long time, decades long posturing between two great powers to now you're in kinetic fight.
• 38:49
  In the Middle East. Yeah. Tell us about that transition and what that was like and what you experienced in Persian Gulf.
• 38:55
  Yeah it really a testimony or a testament to the leadership both military and civilian leadership and to the resilience of the American fighting warrior that we were able to do that
• 39:09
  Because we were all, not just the 10th, but all of us in Europe were training to fight a Soviet invasion across the green plains of Central Europe.
• 39:21
  And all of a sudden, we were pivoting to fight an Iraqi aggressor in the deserts of the Middle East.
• 39:30
  And our tactics for fighting the Soviets in Central Europe were kind of low-level tactics.
• 39:36
  Our tactics in the Gulf were high-level tactics.
• 39:39
  So we literally went from training for one war to fighting a different war.
• 39:43
  And now we can look back on Desert Storm and you could kind of rightly say it was a bit of a turkey shoot.
• 39:54
  It wasn't that big of a deal.
• 39:56
  But going into it, we had no idea that that was going to be the case.
• 39:59
  Going into it, we expected 25% attrition.
• 40:01
  So one out of every four guys that were going over there were not coming home.
• 40:05
  Iraq had the fourth largest army in the world.
• 40:07
  They were seasoned combat veterans because they had just gotten done with an eight-year war fighting Iran.
• 40:12
  And we were in their environment, not ours. And so when we pivoted to go over there, there was a healthy respect and concern for the battle that we were going to fight.
• 40:27
  And I think, again, I think it was, I think both our civilian leadership, I was not a huge George H.W. Bush fan, but I will say that he was a fabulous wartime president because he supported the diplomacy and the defense department.
• 40:46
  He supported the warfighters, let them do their jobs, didn't get in the way, didn't micromanage them.
• 40:52
  And then the people that we had in charge, Colin Powell and Dick Cheney and Norman Schwarzkopf, were men of integrity.
• 41:01
  I know Cheney's taken a beating over the last number of years, but he was a man of integrity.
• 41:06
  and they put together a fabulous war plan
• 41:08
  and they relied on well-trained,
• 41:12
  well-armed warriors to do their jobs
• 41:17
  and to carry the day.
• 41:18
  And that's exactly what happened.
• 41:22
  So the contrast though,
• 41:26
  I mean, I don't want you to speak
• 41:29
  against the military per se at all.
• 41:31
  I don't want you to take it to someone
• 41:33
  to ask this question,
• 41:33
  but when you were there
• 41:35
  and experiencing what was going on,
• 41:38
  did you feel it was right for us to be there?
• 41:39
  Because a lot of people criticize the U.S.
• 41:41
  for ever stepping into the Middle East at all.
• 41:44
  Well, yeah.
• 41:45
  So that's a big topic.
• 41:47
  And the Middle East has been a morass
• 41:50
  for over 2,000 years, right?
• 41:52
  And so I think that if you zoom out
• 41:56
  and you look at the totality of that situation,
• 42:02
  I understand that argument.
• 42:03
  Why would we insert ourselves into that?
• 42:07
  At the time, here's the small picture of what was going on, right?
• 42:13
  So we all know that the world is dependent on fossil fuels and oil.
• 42:17
  And a large percentage of that oil was controlled out of the Middle East.
• 42:23
  And so Iran has a large percentage.
• 42:25
  Iraq had a large percentage.
• 42:27
  Kuwait actually had a small percentage, which is very interesting.
• 42:29
  So we'll kind of come back to that.
• 42:30
  But probably by the biggest oil reserve in the Middle East was held by Saudi Arabia, right?
• 42:37
  And so all of a sudden, Iraq invades Kuwait.
• 42:41
  And again, Kuwait had a small, it's a small country, right?
• 42:43
  So they have a small percentage of the oil.
• 42:46
  But we stepped in because we could not allow Iraq to capture more control of the world's oil supply.
• 42:54
  And I will tell you that while we built the coalition and we built the justification on expelling Iraq from its neighbor, Kuwait, the real prize was Saudi Arabia.
• 43:08
  And so there was really – Saudi Arabia is a large company in area.
• 43:13
  It's a very wealthy country because – I think I said company.
• 43:16
  I meant country.
• 43:17
  So it's a large country.
• 43:19
  It's a very – you're exactly right.
• 43:21
  it's a wealthy country, but they don't have any military. They don't have any defense.
• 43:26
  Right. Which is interesting.
• 43:28
  Nothing that we are their defense, right?
• 43:30
  Right.
• 43:30
  There was nothing that was going to keep Saddam Hussein from rolling towards Riyadh. Nothing.
• 43:35
  And so we used Kuwait as the stop. So we're going to stop you there,
• 43:42
  and we're not going to allow you. Because if, in fact, if they had rolled through Saudi Arabia,
• 43:46
  nothing was going to stop them, and they would have controlled over 25% of the world's oil supply.
• 43:50
  And that's what we were really doing there. So it sounds good and feels good to say we are not going to allow naked aggression from one country to another, and we are going to step up as a worldwide coalition to stop it.
• 44:07
  And that's part of it, but really it was much more economics than anything. We could not allow Iraq to essentially conquer Saudi Arabia and not much of the world's oil supply.
• 44:19
  so to your question yes i supported it yeah i mean we get criticized for for doing these things
• 44:27
  um and this will be some opinion you know but we we get criticized for doing these things but i
• 44:33
  don't think people step back to see you know from the macro view like what's the world will look like
• 44:37
  if we let these things happen right and then they don't understand the geopolitical relationships
• 44:42
  and intricacies here because like what you just described a lot of people don't understand like
• 44:46
  well, if we're going to give Iraq more power,
• 44:48
  they're literally not just controlling oil.
• 44:50
  They're gaining also more literal power in the area.
• 44:53
  That's right.
• 44:53
  And become that much more the aggressor
• 44:56
  because they feel like,
• 44:57
  oh, we won this great battle.
• 44:59
  Look what we just did.
• 45:00
  And they're going to be more emboldened to keep expanding.
• 45:02
  Kind of like what we've seen with Iran.
• 45:04
  That's right.
• 45:05
  But Iran's a slightly different story.
• 45:07
  Very different, yeah.
• 45:08
  Yes, it is and isn't.
• 45:09
  It's a weird one for sure with their history, right?
• 45:11
  but the thing being is
• 45:15
  I don't think people understand that
• 45:17
  these decisions aren't just made
• 45:20
  and just made like
• 45:22
  they're not knee-jerk reactions, for example.
• 45:24
  There's a lot that goes behind these decisions.
• 45:27
  That's true. That's absolutely right.
• 45:29
  How is it that we can convey
• 45:30
  to the people who haven't served
• 45:32
  or those who don't really
• 45:34
  look at geopolitics? They just read the headline
• 45:36
  and they look at their social media app
• 45:38
  and they go, wow, the US is the big bad devil.
• 45:40
  Why are we oppressing these people?
• 45:42
  They look at us as the imperialists, which if we really want to talk about it, it's the UK that actually colonized most of the world.
• 45:50
  It wasn't the US.
• 45:53
  Look, we're men, and we're fallible, and we fall short often.
• 45:59
  often, right? And so we make mistakes and certainly some of those arguments around colonialism
• 46:06
  and imperialism and things that we've done, they're valid. A lot of that is valid, right?
• 46:13
  And I think that you have to look at the totality of the scales of justice, right? So if there are
• 46:20
  these cosmic scales of justice and you're looking at the United States and on one side are the good
• 46:26
  that we've done for the world and on another side of the bad, it's not close, right?
• 46:31
  The scales of justice tip strongly towards the United States having a positive impact
• 46:38
  on the world.
• 46:39
  And that doesn't mean we're perfect.
• 46:41
  And that means certainly we've done things we shouldn't have done.
• 46:44
  And those have had real consequences on people around the world.
• 46:49
  But the cosmic scales of justice tip heavily in our favor, for sure.
• 46:53
  so how did you become we're going to come back to the police by the way but how did how did you how
• 47:00
  did you become an intelligence officer because after all this how did you get into that so um
• 47:05
  that's what i that's what i actually wanted to do when i first entered the air force and uh i was a
• 47:11
  political science major a lot of my concentration was on international relations and geopolitical
• 47:17
  scenarios and so i wanted to go into intel when i came into the air force at the time that i was
• 47:23
  coming in, they were not accepting new officers into the intelligence ranks. And so they had
• 47:29
  something called operation management available, which was working and supporting flying squadrons.
• 47:34
  And I thought, okay, well, that'd be pretty cool. But I never took my eye off the ball.
• 47:38
  And when I was in the fighter squadron, one of the really incredible things that happened in my life
• 47:46
  was an acceptance by those guys. And that was kind of rare, right? If you weren't one of them,
• 47:52
  If you weren't a pilot, you were kind of the other guy.
• 47:55
  And I was accepted by that community, and that was incredibly edifying and flattering.
• 48:02
  Anyway, there was some discussion about, do you want to go to pilot training?
• 48:06
  And I didn't.
• 48:08
  For a lot of reasons, I just didn't.
• 48:10
  I didn't really have a love or a yearning to take to the sky, but I wanted to get into intel.
• 48:14
  And so because of the influence of the fighter community in the Air Force, my commanders were able to recommend that I go do that.
• 48:23
  And so that's what I did.
• 48:24
  I went to Goodfellow Air Force Base in San Angelo, Texas for a nine-month crash course in being an Air Force intelligence officer.
• 48:35
  And then when I graduated as a distinguished graduate of both of those schools, I'm proud of that.
• 48:42
  I try hard not to do this, but I'm pretty proud of that and want my kids to hear it.
• 48:47
  You should be.
• 48:48
  And so from there, graduating with that kind of record, I was sent to Air Combat Command at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia, where I started a three-and-a-half-year run as an intelligence officer.
• 49:03
  Interesting, man.
• 49:04
  I mean, you've ran the gamut, it sounds like.
• 49:07
  Really?
• 49:08
  Yeah.
• 49:10
  I'm incredibly blessed, George.
• 49:11
  It was fabulous.
• 49:13
  That's crazy.
• 49:15
  Thank you for your service.
• 49:16
  I mean, damn, everything you did.
• 49:18
  That's crazy.
• 49:19
  Love your story.
• 49:20
  Now, this is where we kick back to the Middle East because I'm not going to gloss over Iran.
• 49:24
  We did kind of bring it up.
• 49:25
  It's happening now.
• 49:28
  And you definitely have a lot of experience and you know what's going on.
• 49:34
  Um, so tell us about Iran right now.
• 49:39
  Like where are we at?
• 49:40
  Where is this heading?
• 49:41
  Cause a lot of people have questions.
• 49:42
  I have my own opinions, but I want to hear from you, uh, your assessment and your take
• 49:47
  on what's happening.
• 49:48
  I have a lot of questions from where it's going to.
• 49:50
  And so as you, as you and your listeners have now experienced, give me a second to go backwards
• 49:56
  a little bit and zoom out and provide some context.
• 49:58
  So just a moment ago, um, you were saying that there were a lot of similarities and
• 50:02
  And I kind of went, well, maybe.
• 50:04
  And so we'll kind of come back to that, right?
• 50:07
  So here's what's really going on that is led, or here's what's led up to today and what's
• 50:14
  really going on.
• 50:16
  Iran is not an economic difference.
• 50:20
  It's not around oil, per se.
• 50:23
  What happened is, so first of all, the Iranians are not Arabs.
• 50:29
  they are muslim but they're not arabs they're persians right right everybody else in the middle
• 50:35
  east are arabs and so there is this kind of ethnic tribal difference between them and then inside of
• 50:43
  islam there are two sects of islam there is sunni and there is shia and the the basic difference
• 50:50
  between sunni and shia the sunni muslims believe that there are five pillars of islam the shia
• 50:56
  Muslims believe there are six pillars. The sixth pillar is jihad. And jihad is a holy war against
• 51:05
  the infidels, which is us. It's the Jews and the Christians and everybody who does not embrace
• 51:11
  Islam, right? And so the Iranians are Persian Shia Muslims. And 47 years ago, so
• 51:21
  So Iran was controlled by a guy named the Shah.
• 51:25
  He was Western friendly.
• 51:26
  He was friendly to the Western oil companies.
• 51:28
  And 47 years ago, radical Shiite clerics in Iran overthrew the government.
• 51:36
  And they installed what is essentially an oligarchic theocracy of zealots.
• 51:43
  And zealots is the right word to use.
• 51:46
  And your listeners should hold on to that word as we talk about this, right?
• 51:50
  So the radical Shia clerics who took over Iran and really occupy the top strata of Iranian power and society.
• 52:02
  have one goal in mind, and it's really important that we understand this.
• 52:09
  Their goal is the apocalypse.
• 52:13
  Their goal is to bring the world to an apocalyptic battle
• 52:20
  where Islam will conquer everybody else.
• 52:26
  Of course, we have different views on how that's going to turn out,
• 52:29
  but that's what they're trying to do.
• 52:32
  And they're trying to eliminate Israel, eliminate the Jews, but they're really trying to bring about this apocalyptic vision.
• 52:40
  You know, in the Christian world, we believe that in the second coming of Christ, right, the Islamics have the same belief in what they call the Mahdi.
• 52:50
  So they believe that the Mahdi is going to return and he is going to wage war, the war to end all wars, the apocalypse.
• 52:58
  That's what they're trying to achieve.
• 53:02
  nothing else, right? They're not trying to have a vibrant Iran that's part of the world of nations
• 53:09
  where their people are going to thrive. They're not trying for any of that. They are trying to
• 53:14
  bring about the end of the world's era that we know right now. And that's where we are, right?
• 53:23
  And that informs, if you're thinking and your listeners are thinking, well, why can't we
• 53:28
  why can't we negotiate a peace? They don't want to negotiate a peace.
• 53:32
  No, they don't.
• 53:33
  They don't. They want chaos and war. They want this to continue to escalate,
• 53:39
  to bring about this apocalyptic vision. So with all that background, where are we right now? Well,
• 53:47
  Now, I understand Trump and this administration are not passive.
• 53:59
  They lean into problems and confrontation.
• 54:04
  And I understand that Trump leaned into this and said, okay, enough of this bullshit.
• 54:12
  We're finally going to put an end to this.
• 54:14
  They've been terrorizing the world and they've been terrorizing us for 47 years and we're going to put an end to it.
• 54:20
  I also think, and I don't know this, but I think in kind of reading the tea leaves, that there is this element, especially with what went on in Venezuela, that there is this element of Trump trying to seize control of oil and the world economy so that we are not held hostage by terroristic regimes.
• 54:42
  So I think there's an element of that to this too, right?
• 54:45
  But I think Trump was leaning into the problem.
• 54:47
  I also, again, reading the tea leaves, I've been out of that world now for a bunch of years.
• 54:51
  But it certainly seems like Israel had intelligence that Iran was going to precipitate something
• 54:57
  and decided to, well, on October 7th, kind of points to that.
• 55:02
  And so I think Israel said, look, instead of sitting back waiting to be attacked again,
• 55:06
  let's take the offensive here.
• 55:07
  In the United States, we need you involved in this.
• 55:09
  So I think that's part of what happened too.
• 55:11
  and along those lines I'm supportive of that thinking because I don't think you know socks
• 55:18
  the dirty socks don't smell better when you push them farther under the bed right you got to deal
• 55:23
  with your problems and not just continue to hope that they go away now what's interesting is we are
• 55:31
  now in this situation where I think what is going on is that the layer of religious zealots
• 55:41
  that control the money and the weapons in Iran is deeper than we thought that it was.
• 55:48
  So I think we thought we were going to topple a few layers of those zealots and that the people,
• 55:53
  the Persian people, probably led by Raya Pallavi, were going to revolt and throw the
• 56:01
  bums out. And then we wouldn't have these religious zealots that we were dealing with.
• 56:05
  We would have people who wanted to have a prosperous Iran. And I think what we have
• 56:09
  found is that's not the case. Those people did not rise up. They don't have any weapons. There's
• 56:14
  a learning for Second Amendment foes. Raya Pallavi has not really stepped up. There's no leader
• 56:20
  that has taken the mantle of overthrowing these religious zealots.
• 56:24
  And so now we are mired in this situation where there's more of those guys than we thought.
• 56:29
  Nobody has come up from underneath to help us.
• 56:32
  And we're kind of now what kind of thing.
• 56:36
  Sorry, that was a lot.
• 56:37
  No.
• 56:39
  And it's okay because if you dive to some of my other episodes,
• 56:43
  I mean, I have said the same, very similar to what you said, to be quite honest.
• 56:51
  I agree with a lot of your assessment on what's going on here.
• 56:56
  But, you know, and that's the thing.
• 56:58
  A lot of people just focus on the oil and how expensive the gas is.
• 57:02
  But it's temporary.
• 57:04
  It is temporary.
• 57:06
  And the thing with Iran, a lot of people, like, I don't understand the sympathy, basically,
• 57:10
  for what I would consider an evil regime
• 57:12
  that in my opinion should never exist.
• 57:14
  And I think the world has tolerated them
• 57:16
  for so long for the convenience of oil and fertilizer that came out of the strait The Western world could have a long time ago found other means to get what they needed
• 57:27
  And I think you're right.
• 57:28
  What Trump is doing is he sees
• 57:30
  a race for realignment with power.
• 57:33
  And part of that is also China.
• 57:36
  And so I agree with what he's doing.
• 57:39
  I understand what he did with Venezuela.
• 57:41
  I understand what he's doing to Canada right now.
• 57:43
  He's trolling them,
• 57:44
  but I know what he's doing.
• 57:45
  Yeah, he is.
• 57:45
  And I get what he's trying to do.
• 57:48
  Now, I don't understand this.
• 57:51
  And maybe you can educate me on this.
• 57:53
  But I don't understand the sympathy for Islam in America.
• 57:57
  And I'm not going to throw a blanket statement saying all Muslims back because we have it.
• 58:01
  Like I've said it before, you look at Indonesia, largest Muslim population, we don't have any issues.
• 58:06
  But then you look at the Middle East and it's usually where this stems from, all the terrorism and whatnot.
• 58:11
  because you said they have this jihadist view intertwined into that particular brand of Islam they practice.
• 58:17
  It's just an ideology that they've been using to coerce people and to control them and subjugate others.
• 58:22
  To me, it's an ideology of conquest and subjugation.
• 58:26
  And so we've seen these terrorist organizations bleed into Africa now.
• 58:31
  Now, look what they're doing in Africa.
• 58:33
  They're slaughtering Christians by the thousands.
• 58:35
  We have the Muslim Brotherhood is now embedded in Africa.
• 58:38
  We also have ISIS is huge in Africa right now.
• 58:43
  So Africa is in danger of making a full turn to being controlled by radical Islamists.
• 58:49
  So with all this being said, you know, this episode, I'm going to tell you right now, everything you said online, once this goes out, we're going to get so much pushback.
• 58:56
  It's just, I don't understand the pushback because everything you said is true.
• 59:00
  how do you feel about America right now
• 59:03
  and the push to support
• 59:05
  the, I'm going to call it
• 59:07
  the Islamic invasion, and I know how that sounds
• 59:09
  but how do you feel
• 59:11
  about the way it's being adopted
• 59:13
  here in the United States of America
• 59:15
  so let me be clear about
• 59:17
  one thing, so I have an Islamic
• 59:19
  family member, and I love
• 59:21
  her, we love her dearly
• 59:23
  and
• 59:24
  so my thoughts
• 59:27
  on this are not around
• 59:29
  people who practice Islam. What a great country we live in that each of us can pursue life,
• 59:39
  liberty, and happiness in the way that we see fit. And I love that about this country,
• 59:46
  and I completely support that. Now, I will also say, who's sympathetic to them?
• 59:54
  And here's why I say that. Oftentimes, the tensions in the Middle East get portrayed as Arab versus Jew. I have been there. I have friends who have worked there for the last 30 years in the Middle East and that are working there today.
• 1:00:16
  And what I can tell you with certainty is the number one concern of the Arabs in the Middle East is not the Jews in Israel, and it is not the Palestinian problem.
• 1:00:28
  It's Iran.
• 1:00:29
  The people and the governments of Saudi Arabia and Oman and Jordan and Egypt, their number one concern for the last 50 years has been Iran, period, dot, full stop.
• 1:00:43
  And so when you say that there's a lot, and I believe that you're correct, when you say there's a lot of sympathy for them, from who?
• 1:00:53
  Not the other countries in the Middle East.
• 1:00:56
  They want to see these guys eliminated just as badly as we do.
• 1:01:00
  So I don't know who the hell's got sympathy.
• 1:01:03
  I don't get it.
• 1:01:05
  Yeah, it's a concerted plan, obviously, to turn America.
• 1:01:10
  It is.
• 1:01:10
  If you look at the adoption of the DSA.
• 1:01:12
  Now, look, what you said, I get it.
• 1:01:14
  You have a family member that practices Islam.
• 1:01:16
  But we've also defined earlier the differences between Sunni and Shia.
• 1:01:20
  We've also defined the differences between those who practice extremist views and those who look at it just as a religion.
• 1:01:26
  We point to Indonesia, like I said, largest Muslim population, no issues.
• 1:01:30
  George, we can point at extremist Christians and consider them dangerous too.
• 1:01:35
  Exactly.
• 1:01:35
  So what I was going to say is, and even in Indonesia, I believe there's three terrorist organizations that tried to rise there after going back to the Middle East and then bringing back those ideologies.
• 1:01:44
  And the government shut them down.
• 1:01:45
  They said, we're not having it here.
• 1:01:46
  It's just, we don't do that.
• 1:01:48
  So there is a distinction between what we're really looking at is good and evil.
• 1:01:52
  That's right.
• 1:01:53
  And that's what we got to look at.
• 1:01:55
  Yeah, that's right.
• 1:01:55
  But what's hard, and what's hard, I'm going to be very blunt about it, it's hard to distinguish between those that practice Islam and look at it as just a part of their culture and their religion versus those who take the extremist view and they try to hide within that population of good people.
• 1:02:13
  And then when they get here, all of a sudden it's like, wait a minute, what's going on?
• 1:02:17
  And so I hope you understand I'm not trying to just attack Islam.
• 1:02:22
  I do understand.
• 1:02:23
  Yeah.
• 1:02:23
  Okay.
• 1:02:23
  I'm with you.
• 1:02:24
  So combine that with our Customs Border Patrol data earlier in the year of where they actually, the ones they actually caught stopped.
• 1:02:33
  There was enough terrorists trying to get through our border that would put 80 terrorists in every single state of the United States of America That how much that they apprehended Doesn count the ones that they call gotaways or got in Yep And so we in a serious situation here We are
• 1:02:46
  It's like,
• 1:02:46
  we want to,
• 1:02:46
  we want to be accepting.
• 1:02:47
  We want to realize the world is bigger than us and,
• 1:02:50
  you know,
• 1:02:51
  not everybody lives the same,
• 1:02:52
  but how hard is it for us to understand that there are people that do want
• 1:02:57
  to kill us or,
• 1:02:59
  or,
• 1:02:59
  or basically destroy America.
• 1:03:01
  It apparently is very,
• 1:03:02
  it apparently is very hard for us to understand it.
• 1:03:05
  And listen, I don't want to be chicken little and scream the sky is falling.
• 1:03:08
  I don't want to be an alarmist.
• 1:03:11
  I don't want to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
• 1:03:14
  But we are in a war with good and evil.
• 1:03:18
  And we have to wake up and we have to understand that it is upon us.
• 1:03:24
  It's not coming.
• 1:03:25
  It's here.
• 1:03:26
  And it's probably going to take a lot more to wake up a lot more people.
• 1:03:33
  but it is here and it's going to be, and listen, I pray that I'm wrong.
• 1:03:41
  I pray that I'm wrong. And if I am wrong, 20 years from now, everybody can send me emails
• 1:03:48
  and say, okay, you old fool, you were wrong. And I'm willing to accept that, right? But I don't
• 1:03:54
  think I am wrong. And I think that we are going to have to deal with this very real and present
• 1:03:59
  threat that is already inside the gates.
• 1:04:03
  So another question about this, I think you've literally explained everything, I think,
• 1:04:11
  both eloquently and also very bluntly.
• 1:04:15
  You definitely presented facts, I think, behind it.
• 1:04:18
  And so how do you convey this, what you just said, that we're in a real war against evil,
• 1:04:26
  for example?
• 1:04:28
  How do you convey that message to people who are just stuck on their gas price?
• 1:04:31
  Yeah, I think we're doing it right now, George.
• 1:04:34
  That's one of the reasons why I enjoy talking with you.
• 1:04:39
  It's one of the reasons why I wanted to come on, because I think we have to present it based on facts, based on empirical evidence, based on experience from the past.
• 1:04:54
  I think we have to put it out there and let people know what it is that we're seeing.
• 1:05:01
  I'm 61 years old, George, and I am not smarter than anybody else.
• 1:05:06
  But I do have a lot of years of experience and real-world experience in observing and in watching and in interacting.
• 1:05:16
  And so what I'm talking about is not because I somehow have a better idea than anybody else has ever had.
• 1:05:23
  It's just the cumulative learnings of a guy who served in the military, served over in the Middle East, was an intelligence officer, and has studied these topics.
• 1:05:35
  And so I think, to answer your question directly, I think what we're doing right now is very important.
• 1:05:41
  And that's why what you're saying is valuable, not just to me, but to everybody.
• 1:05:45
  I think we don't hear enough from people who have actually deployed, served, and interacted with these other cultures and had firsthand experience, in particular, the Middle East.
• 1:05:58
  And everyone, I think, their heads are filled with what CNN tells them, Fox tells them, whatever.
• 1:06:03
  And they're reporting from afar.
• 1:06:05
  They're not getting everything based on firsthand experiences.
• 1:06:09
  And we do have, unfortunately, those who sensationalize things and just want to be famous and tell stories.
• 1:06:14
  but someone like yourself,
• 1:06:16
  it's not what you're doing.
• 1:06:18
  You're literally telling everybody your experience.
• 1:06:20
  And I thought it was,
• 1:06:21
  it was fascinating to hear,
• 1:06:22
  honestly,
• 1:06:24
  your experience from like the cold war also,
• 1:06:26
  and then leading all the way to where we are now.
• 1:06:28
  It's like,
• 1:06:28
  you have this,
• 1:06:29
  this,
• 1:06:30
  this breadth of experience that most people are not going to have.
• 1:06:32
  And unfortunately we don't have enough people like you that are going out and
• 1:06:35
  telling these stories.
• 1:06:37
  Very kind.
• 1:06:38
  Thank you.
• 1:06:38
  Well,
• 1:06:38
  but,
• 1:06:39
  and not to offend anybody,
• 1:06:41
  but here,
• 1:06:41
  nobody in the server,
• 1:06:42
  not trying to offend anybody,
• 1:06:43
  But we do have a lot of special operations people, special forces people that want to tell their special forces tales.
• 1:06:48
  But they don't get deep into the geopolitical relationships and how cultures connect and don't connect, what the differences are, and what's really behind what's going on.
• 1:06:58
  And that's one of the things that you did talk about.
• 1:07:01
  And so I value that.
• 1:07:03
  Thanks.
• 1:07:03
  So I appreciate it.
• 1:07:04
  Yeah.
• 1:07:05
  So let's do this, sir.
• 1:07:07
  I think I can keep talking to you for another hour.
• 1:07:09
  I'm game.
• 1:07:10
  Whatever you need.
• 1:07:10
  Hey, let's tell everybody about your book.
• 1:07:14
  Okay, I'm going to go ahead and pop your website up here so you can go ahead and explain a little bit about it and where they can buy it.
• 1:07:21
  Yeah.
• 1:07:22
  So maybe to let everybody know why I wrote the book.
• 1:07:27
  So we were preparing for a reunion.
• 1:07:31
  We have reunions every couple of years, and we were preparing for a reunion back in 2024 and decided that it would be interesting to take kind of a historical lens.
• 1:07:40
  on our service over there at Han.
• 1:07:44
  And so we started to look deeply into the things that occurred while we were there.
• 1:07:50
  And it took our breath away because when you're in the middle of it, when you're immersed
• 1:07:54
  in an environment you can sometimes lose the forest through the trees right But when you zoom out and have the benefit of hindsight you go wow we were really we were the tip of the spear and we were really involved in some pretty weighty geopolitical situations right So that was the
• 1:08:11
  first motivation to write the book. The second motivation to write the book was when I got over
• 1:08:16
  there in June of 88, I was a 23-year-old second lieutenant. I had been out of college for a year
• 1:08:21
  and I found myself in a fighter squadron. So think about graduating from college and being
• 1:08:26
  plucked into the middle of the movie Top Gun. It must have been wild.
• 1:08:30
  It was incredible, right? It was incredible. And so I started thinking about it. I'm like,
• 1:08:35
  this is a great story. It was a shitload of fun. And it happened in a time historically that was
• 1:08:44
  really important. And I said, I got to tell this story. And so that's what led to writing the book.
• 1:08:50
  The book is divided into two parts.
• 1:08:52
  So the first half of the book would rightly be described as life in an American fighter squadron during the Cold War.
• 1:08:59
  And what that means is it's equal parts operational details, what it's like to fly in an F-16 and what it's like to go fly one of these missions.
• 1:09:08
  But it's also kind of the fraternity of being in a fighter squadron.
• 1:09:15
  And so it's back and forth between kind of serious operational stuff and a bunch of 20 and 30 somethings who still acted like they were 12 years old.
• 1:09:25
  But in this case, we had nuclear weapons.
• 1:09:27
  And so there's a good bit of that in the first half of the book.
• 1:09:31
  The second part of the book is all about Desert Storm.
• 1:09:35
  And it's 90% of the second half of the book is taken directly from the war journals of Colonel Ed Hull, who was the commander of the fight in 10th.
• 1:09:45
  and a guy named Bill Andrews, who was shot down towards the end of the war.
• 1:09:49
  So 95% of the second half of the book of The Desert Storm is directly from the commander and the guys who flew those missions, right?
• 1:09:57
  And it kind of takes you through a day-by-day chronology of the lead-up to the actual shooting,
• 1:10:04
  and then the air part, and then the ground part of the war, and then coming home.
• 1:10:09
  And so that's the book.
• 1:10:10
  And I'm really pleased.
• 1:10:14
  I wrote the book for the guys that I served with, and there's been a great reaction from them.
• 1:10:19
  There's also been a great reaction from the civilian community.
• 1:10:23
  So whether you are a hardcore military guy or veteran or you're a civilian who doesn't have a lot of experience, I think the book is a great read.
• 1:10:34
  I think it's funny.
• 1:10:36
  I think it's a little bit irreverent.
• 1:10:37
  I think it gives you really good insight into the American heroes who were part of the 10th Tactical Fighter Squadron.
• 1:10:44
  and there it is on Amazon.
• 1:10:47
  There it is.
• 1:10:49
  So you can basically buy it pretty much anywhere,
• 1:10:51
  right?
• 1:10:51
  I'm sure.
• 1:10:52
  Yeah.
• 1:10:52
  You can buy it on Apple,
• 1:10:54
  Amazon,
• 1:10:54
  Barnes and Noble,
• 1:10:55
  Target.
• 1:10:55
  Yeah.
• 1:10:55
  It's,
• 1:10:56
  it's kind of wherever good books are sold,
• 1:10:58
  I think is the line that I'm supposed to say for good books are sold.
• 1:11:03
  For good books are sold.
• 1:11:05
  Okay.
• 1:11:06
  Mac,
• 1:11:07
  anything else you want to go over before we end this?
• 1:11:10
  I serve at the pleasure of,
• 1:11:12
  uh,
• 1:11:13
  of George fonts.
• 1:11:14
  So whatever you want to talk about.
• 1:11:16
  Not even.
• 1:11:17
  Geez.
• 1:11:18
  No, I just want to be sure that whatever's on your chest, you get off.
• 1:11:23
  And, you know, obviously with someone with your experience and knowledge, I mean, you and I could do multiple recordings here.
• 1:11:30
  You know, we could talk, you know, down the road again about many things.
• 1:11:35
  I love that.
• 1:11:36
  I mean, with what's going on, I don't know how you feel.
• 1:11:40
  But to me, every time I wake up, I feel like the world's getting crazier every day.
• 1:11:45
  And it feels like it's ramping up.
• 1:11:46
  And I don't know if it's just me noticing more or if it's...
• 1:11:50
  I don't know what it is.
• 1:11:51
  But I have noticed from when I was younger to now, it's not just getting older.
• 1:11:55
  It's just like things have been getting crazy.
• 1:11:57
  I mean, everything from that Lacey or whatever, Lacey Clancy, whatever happened with the murder of the children.
• 1:12:03
  It's just been nuts.
• 1:12:05
  So I would love to talk to you again down the road for sure.
• 1:12:07
  I'd love to do that, George.
• 1:12:08
  And I think your podcast is aptly titled because we are a blaze and it is good versus evil.
• 1:12:15
  So it is, but you know, originally the title was partly that, but it was also to, to, to
• 1:12:19
  talk to trailblazers and whatnot.
• 1:12:20
  So it was a dual meeting, but recently, oh, it seems like it's more about what, what the
• 1:12:25
  mess is in the world these days and anything else.
• 1:12:27
  Unfortunately.
• 1:12:27
  Yeah.
• 1:12:28
  All right, sir.
• 1:12:29
  I'm going to sign off then.
• 1:12:30
  I want, um, I want everybody to check max book out.
• 1:12:33
  Please go ahead and buy it.
• 1:12:35
  and don't forget to ever support the show,
• 1:12:38
  share it with others.
• 1:12:39
  And like I said, go to Mac's website,
• 1:12:41
  buy the book, check it out, read it.
• 1:12:45
  And with that, peace.
• 1:12:46
  Devil's hide behind redemption.
• 1:12:50
  Honesty is a one-way gate to hell.
• 1:13:05
  Bye.