Latest / The Science Diplomat / S1E10: Eudy Mabuza on African science diplomacy, research infrastructure and equitable partnerships

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S1E10: Eudy Mabuza on African science diplomacy, research infrastructure and equitable partnerships · The Science Diplomat

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back to
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: The Science Diplomat Podcast.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have with us Eudy Mabuza,
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  SPEAKER_00: who is someone who started out
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  SPEAKER_00: two decades ago as
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  SPEAKER_00: a young science diplomat on
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  SPEAKER_00: the South Africa Science
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  SPEAKER_00: Department's international desk.
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  SPEAKER_00: Since then, she has worked in the
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  SPEAKER_00: minister's office, spent five and a
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  SPEAKER_00: half years in Tokyo building the
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  SPEAKER_00: South Africa-Japan hydrogen
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  SPEAKER_00: relationship, and now
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  SPEAKER_00: serves as the minister counselor
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  SPEAKER_00: for science and innovation at
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  SPEAKER_00: the South African Mission in
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  SPEAKER_00: Brussels, managing South Africa's
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  SPEAKER_00: science collaboration with the EU
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  SPEAKER_00: and its member states.
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  SPEAKER_00: Eudy, welcome to the show.
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  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me into The
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  SPEAKER_02: Science Diplomat Podcast.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you've said it well.
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  SPEAKER_02: I've been in the department actually
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  SPEAKER_02: for 20 years and I started there
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  SPEAKER_02: as a young science
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  SPEAKER_02: diplomat trained and groomed
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  SPEAKER_02: by the department and our foreign
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  SPEAKER_02: ministry into this
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  SPEAKER_02: role.
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  SPEAKER_02: So you're asking which one
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  SPEAKER_02: has really shaped me and
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  SPEAKER_02: gotten me to understand the country's needs.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think all of them, actually,
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  SPEAKER_02: in all the roles, because I've had
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  SPEAKER_02: an interface with
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  SPEAKER_02: international partners from
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  SPEAKER_02: right entry into my early
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  SPEAKER_02: days of the career in the
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  SPEAKER_02: department, because
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  SPEAKER_02: I have been placed in
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  SPEAKER_02: the international desk.
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  SPEAKER_02: Hence, I've been dealing with
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  SPEAKER_02: international partners,
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  SPEAKER_02: interfacing with our scientists
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  SPEAKER_02: in South Africa, trying
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  SPEAKER_02: to find partners for them around
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  SPEAKER_02: the world.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I started off then with
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  SPEAKER_02: the Europe and Americas
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  SPEAKER_02: as my portfolio, moved
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  SPEAKER_02: into Asia, and now that's
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  SPEAKER_02: how I then ended up in Tokyo.
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  SPEAKER_02: In the ministry was a very
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  SPEAKER_02: interesting level because it's the
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  SPEAKER_02: highest office of the science
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  SPEAKER_02: department.
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  SPEAKER_02: And there you get to then
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  SPEAKER_02: see the interface at a political
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  SPEAKER_02: level, on science and
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  SPEAKER_02: then the international linkages and
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  SPEAKER_02: the engagements.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it's been a very interesting
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  SPEAKER_02: one, servicing the
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  SPEAKER_02: political office at
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  SPEAKER_02: an administration level,
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  SPEAKER_02: connecting the needs of
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  SPEAKER_02: the ministry and
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  SPEAKER_02: the department, and then,
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  SPEAKER_02: the interface therefore of
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  SPEAKER_02: the international space.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I would say all the roles
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  SPEAKER_02: I've played have really played a
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  SPEAKER_02: critical role in my
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  SPEAKER_02: understanding of the
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  SPEAKER_02: international collaboration in
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  SPEAKER_02: science.
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  SPEAKER_03: Amazing. And just to add on to that,
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  SPEAKER_03: so you are a science diplomat by
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  SPEAKER_03: profession.
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  SPEAKER_03: What can you walk us through what
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  SPEAKER_03: a Monday morning in Brussels looks like to you?
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  SPEAKER_03: What's the day to day?
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  SPEAKER_02: Monday morning, it's
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  SPEAKER_02: in Brussels, get in the office.
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  SPEAKER_02: I get briefings from Pretoria.
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  SPEAKER_02: I would also put it into very
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  SPEAKER_02: descriptive of my day to day.
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  SPEAKER_02: I had my meetings with the
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  SPEAKER_02: colleagues from the Africa desk in
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  SPEAKER_02: Pretoria, getting updates on
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  SPEAKER_02: some of the engagements that we are
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  SPEAKER_02: doing on the AU-EU.
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  SPEAKER_02: I feed them also on some of
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  SPEAKER_02: the engagements and activities.
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  SPEAKER_02: Immediately followed by a
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  SPEAKER_02: similar round of meetings with
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  SPEAKER_02: the colleagues that are managing the
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  SPEAKER_02: European Union and
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  SPEAKER_02: giving them some information
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  SPEAKER_02: on what is happening on the ground,
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  SPEAKER_02: calls that will be coming out, which
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  SPEAKER_02: ones we should be looking into,
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  SPEAKER_02: consortias that we need to bring
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  SPEAKER_02: into the party to get
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  SPEAKER_02: them to prepare themselves and
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  SPEAKER_02: those that may not even have partners.
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  SPEAKER_02: How can we connect
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  SPEAKER_02: them with the partners?
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  SPEAKER_02: And I'm looking through emails of
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  SPEAKER_02: queries of either researchers
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  SPEAKER_02: or scientists from or even private
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  SPEAKER_02: sector from Europe or South Africa
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  SPEAKER_02: engaging with my office, asking for
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  SPEAKER_02: information about Europe.
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  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, then I also have
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  SPEAKER_02: very brief engagements with the
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  SPEAKER_02: political section at the embassy
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  SPEAKER_02: where they come with some
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  SPEAKER_02: questions and inputs that
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  SPEAKER_02: they need from me that I need to
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  SPEAKER_02: even brief the ambassador on
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  SPEAKER_02: some engagements that she may need
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  SPEAKER_02: to be doing that are related to
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  SPEAKER_02: my work also.
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  SPEAKER_02: So it's briefing notes and so forth.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then getting into
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  SPEAKER_02: the run around of my
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  SPEAKER_02: stakeholders, commitments and
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  SPEAKER_02: meetings and sessions that
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  SPEAKER_02: one has to prepare for the week.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it's very also
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  SPEAKER_02: haphazard at times because I
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  SPEAKER_02: am responsible for the
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  SPEAKER_02: EU relationship.
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  SPEAKER_02: But I'm also responsible for the
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  SPEAKER_02: bilateral relations of the
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  SPEAKER_02: EU member states with South Africa
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  SPEAKER_02: at a bilateral level.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I could easily say I am 20%
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  SPEAKER_02: in Brussels and the rest of the
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  SPEAKER_02: 80% somewhere in Europe or
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  SPEAKER_02: the UK because I cover
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  SPEAKER_02: the UK as well.
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  SPEAKER_03: Amazing, so you've
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  SPEAKER_03: talked about both the science part,
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  SPEAKER_03: the diplomacy part.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure the viewers, even just
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  SPEAKER_03: myself, I'm curious to know which
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  SPEAKER_03: side has been harder
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  SPEAKER_03: to navigate - the science
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  SPEAKER_03: or the politics?
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  SPEAKER_02: I would say the politics.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's much more harder to navigate
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  SPEAKER_02: because there's a lot of
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  SPEAKER_02: dynamics that come into play.
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  SPEAKER_02: The science is easy because it's
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  SPEAKER_02: much more straightforward.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's like a one plus one equals to two.
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  SPEAKER_02: In the science space, they have a topic.
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  SPEAKER_02: They have to engage on the topic,
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  SPEAKER_02: which has a problem.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it's finding a solution to the
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  SPEAKER_02: problem, which is very much the science.
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  SPEAKER_02: But the politics, it's
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  SPEAKER_02: an unwinding road
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  SPEAKER_02: that you can never really
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  SPEAKER_02: fully understand in the sense
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  SPEAKER_02: of the dynamics
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  SPEAKER_02: of politics that come to play, and
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  SPEAKER_02: they change on a daily basis every second.
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  SPEAKER_02: There's changes in the political space.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I would definitely say the
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  SPEAKER_02: political space is a much more
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  SPEAKER_02: tricky one to navigate.
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  SPEAKER_01: I noticed that
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  SPEAKER_01: the sense of your job is different
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  SPEAKER_01: from perhaps what an ambassador
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  SPEAKER_01: would do,
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  SPEAKER_01: You represent a country's
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  SPEAKER_01: science, not its trade, not
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  SPEAKER_01: security, but its science.
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  SPEAKER_02: What does South Africa
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  SPEAKER_01: get from your role in
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  SPEAKER_01: Brussels?
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  SPEAKER_01: We get deeper into the content
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  SPEAKER_02: of the topics, deeper into
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  SPEAKER_02: content of their stakeholders,
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  SPEAKER_02: because the fact that
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  SPEAKER_02: the office is existing,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's about this network.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it's much wider in
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  SPEAKER_02: the sense of
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  SPEAKER_02: the relations with the researchers,
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  SPEAKER_02: there's a lot that comes into play
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  SPEAKER_02: with trust building into
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  SPEAKER_02: the network, or rather the
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  SPEAKER_02: stakeholders.
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  SPEAKER_02: And the trust building is also one
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  SPEAKER_02: of the key issues because we
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  SPEAKER_02: collaborate with
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  SPEAKER_02: international scientists
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  SPEAKER_02: and researchers on science.
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  SPEAKER_02: And when you do collaboration,
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  SPEAKER_02: scientists, that's one
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  SPEAKER_02: major part which is trust
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  SPEAKER_02: that has to be built and
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  SPEAKER_02: developed. And the office plays
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  SPEAKER_02: and facilitates that role.
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  SPEAKER_02: And some of the trust components
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  SPEAKER_02: come from the fact that if there's
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  SPEAKER_02: government buy-in, it's
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  SPEAKER_02: an easier way to even start
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  SPEAKER_02: a relationship with other
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  SPEAKER_02: similar partners that are
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  SPEAKER_02: of like-minded from South Africa.
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  SPEAKER_02: So the office's role is
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  SPEAKER_02: much more technical in following
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  SPEAKER_02: the, I would say,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's the eyes and ears of the
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  SPEAKER_02: South African national system
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  SPEAKER_02: of innovation in Brussels.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I feed and engage much
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  SPEAKER_02: more closely with the system as well.
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  SPEAKER_02: And that makes the
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  SPEAKER_02: difference with
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  SPEAKER_02: the ambassador's role.
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  SPEAKER_02: The ambassador's rule is very much
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  SPEAKER_02: more political.
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  SPEAKER_02: Even the ambassador being in
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  SPEAKER_02: Brussels, there's a lot of
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  SPEAKER_02: accreditation and protocols
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  SPEAKER_02: that have to be followed.
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  SPEAKER_02: Whereas in the science space is less
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  SPEAKER_02: protocol, much more technical
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  SPEAKER_02: discussions and thematic
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  SPEAKER_02: engagements.
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  SPEAKER_02: And one is enabled to
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  SPEAKER_02: engage with almost anyone and
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  SPEAKER_02: everyone, and obviously not
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  SPEAKER_02: at that political level, but
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  SPEAKER_02: much more at the technical component.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay, let's put a number on the table. I come from Africa.
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  SPEAKER_03: I come Zambia.
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  SPEAKER_03: And we know that the numbers and how
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  SPEAKER_03: they relate to the Western
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  SPEAKER_03: world is a little bit different for
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  SPEAKER_03: us coming from Africa,
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  SPEAKER_03: so Africa is about 15%
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  SPEAKER_03: of the world's population and
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  SPEAKER_03: roughly 1%, only
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  SPEAKER_03: 1% of the global research
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  SPEAKER_03: spending.
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  SPEAKER_03: So you've spent the past
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  SPEAKER_03: 19 years trying to move that number. Is it moving?
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  SPEAKER_03: Are we winning?
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  SPEAKER_02: What a very...
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  SPEAKER_02: It's not a difficult question,
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  SPEAKER_02: but it's a tricky one
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  SPEAKER_02: in the sense that there's a lot of
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  SPEAKER_02: effort that has been made in
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  SPEAKER_02: the continent.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think there has been some
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  SPEAKER_02: headways, but it is not to the
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  SPEAKER_02: way in which we want or
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  SPEAKER_02: we wished for.
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  SPEAKER_02: When I came in the department,
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  SPEAKER_02: one of the biggest challenges that
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  SPEAKER_02: we wanted to assist and
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: play a role in achieving
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: is in having more
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  SPEAKER_02: science ministries from the
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  SPEAKER_02: continent, having more
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  SPEAKER_02: national systems of innovations
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  SPEAKER_02: being established and
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  SPEAKER_02: formed within the continent.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think we did make some headways,
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  SPEAKER_02: but in those headways
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  SPEAKER_02: we have not achieved the
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: ultimate goal that we wanted.
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  SPEAKER_02: For example, we negotiated a
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  SPEAKER_02: lot of funding from
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: then development agencies where
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  SPEAKER_02: we were doing projects
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  SPEAKER_02: in capacity building
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  SPEAKER_02: with African member states
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  SPEAKER_02: on establishing the national
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  SPEAKER_02: system of innovation within their part.
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  SPEAKER_02: Secondly,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: by pushing for that component, it
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: was obviously to push for African
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  SPEAKER_02: countries to put more money
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  SPEAKER_02: onto the table for science.
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  SPEAKER_02: And we have not yet achieved
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: that, but we have at least achieved
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: policy documents that enable.
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  SPEAKER_02: That sets the scene for
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: member states to also work
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  SPEAKER_02: towards achieving this.
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  SPEAKER_02: And one of the documents is what
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  SPEAKER_02: we call the Science, Technology and
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Innovation Strategy for Africa,
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  SPEAKER_02: which is called STISA.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it's got a very clear also
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: implementation plan.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's the second round of the
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: strategy because we had the first
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: one which concluded in
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: 2024 and the new one started again last year in
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  SPEAKER_02: 2025 going up to the next 10 years.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think with this
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  SPEAKER_02: second alteration is the fact that
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: we've put an implementation plan
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  SPEAKER_02: that also has specific
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: funding targets where
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: it also shows and
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: gives a clear picture
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  SPEAKER_02: to international
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  SPEAKER_02: partners on how we wish
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: to have collaboration and
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: partnership with all different
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: types of international funding
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: bodies or governments.
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  SPEAKER_02: And we are hoping
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  SPEAKER_02: that this implementation plan will
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  SPEAKER_02: assist us to try to get
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: to the desired level
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: of funding that can be
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  SPEAKER_02: put towards Africa.
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  SPEAKER_02: But our intention also is
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  SPEAKER_02: putting much more effort within
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  SPEAKER_02: our national governments to
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: increase spending of R&D.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: For example, in South Africa,
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  SPEAKER_02: my minister last week launched
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  SPEAKER_02: a review
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  SPEAKER_02: paper on STI
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  SPEAKER_02: funding in the country,
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: and this was born from the fact that
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: we had a withdrawal of funding from
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: one of the large international
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: partners, which I will not name,
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: but it made us realize,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: are we vulnerable to
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: international funding as a country or not?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: But we learned that we
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: are putting a huge chunk of our own
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: funding for the country.
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  SPEAKER_02: And what we also learned is that
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  SPEAKER_02: the international funding that is in
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  SPEAKER_02: the country is actually there to
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: strengthen our capabilities,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: but we are funding our
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  SPEAKER_02: own priorities as South
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  SPEAKER_02: Africa.
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  SPEAKER_02: Therefore, we, a minister has
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: launched this to go to public for
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: comments so that we
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  SPEAKER_02: can also develop a plan
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  SPEAKER_02: as a country on how
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  SPEAKER_02: we go ahead with also
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: the funding modalities.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: And part of the plan also in
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: Commons is to invite, it's
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  SPEAKER_02: inviting private sector of South
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  SPEAKER_02: Africa to invest a lot more
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  SPEAKER_02: in R&D in the country,
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  SPEAKER_02: because we are still to reach our
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  SPEAKER_02: 1% target of 1%
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  SPEAKER_02: of our GDP expenditure on R&D.
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  SPEAKER_02: And we have been really
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  SPEAKER_02: for two decades
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  SPEAKER_02: now been battling to reach that one.
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  SPEAKER_02: So in terms of the
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: question you were asking about
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  SPEAKER_02: numbers, I think a lot
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  SPEAKER_02: of effort has been made.
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  SPEAKER_02: But the effort
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  SPEAKER_02: has not yet
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  SPEAKER_02: yielded to what we desire.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I think we still cannot
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: put the guns down and
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: say, we're not going to push this.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be a continued effort.
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  SPEAKER_02: And we are also looking at
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  SPEAKER_02: modalities in which we
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  SPEAKER_02: can employ newer
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  SPEAKER_02: strategies that will enable this.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think the fact that
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: we've had COVID and
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: the current geopolitics of
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: the wars are really
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: shifting the mindset of
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: lots of people on
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: where to put their money for investment.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: And the continent is
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: becoming an attractive space
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: to do so.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: You also wrote in
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: your guest editorial in
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: March, published in Science
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: & Diplomacy,
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: about what you called the imperative
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: for world-class research
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: infrastructure in Africa.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: You called it a strategic lever
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: for equitable science diplomacy.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: You also argue that research
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: infrastructure is really about
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: power.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: Can Africa have an
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: equal scientific partnership with
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: Europe if Europe still
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: controls much of the funding
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: and infrastructure.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think we can.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: We definitely can and we're also
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: at a position where we have a
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: leverage in this
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: current geopolitics.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Africa can, we
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: just need to be very strategic and
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: to use our bargaining power to
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: be able to achieve this.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: I say this because I am
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: advocating for more research
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: infrastructures in the continent and
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: especially within Europe itself.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I will make this example
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: because I've been very frank and
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: open with my colleagues in Europe
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: on the need for
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: them to secure the supply chain of
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: the critical raw materials within
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: the continent.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: And to say that we should
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: look at this component as
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: something that is an opportunity for
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: equitable partnerships.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: We may not have the resources
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: financially, but we have the
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: hardcore raw material
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: which we need to look
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: at how do we ensure
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: beneficiation on those hardcore raw materials.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think science plays
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: a role to bringing
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: some sort of beneficiation
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: in the continent, and by
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: science we can look at
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: which pockets of the
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: value chain in the continent are
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: we strong in, in terms of our
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: human capital, and our
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: capabilities where we
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: can do beneficiation of
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: the raw materials in the continent.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: I have repeatedly been
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: saying that we are not having
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: a dialogue that talks
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: to us at looking at this
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: value chain.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: We are talking about beneficiation,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: but we are not talking about the how
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: of the beneficiation.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we can
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: look at the strengths within the
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: continent that has the raw
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: materials, and we see part
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: of the pockets of the strengths.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: We can be able to
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: ultimately maybe do a research
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: infrastructure in the continent.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: in South Africa.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: It needs to be in a country
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: where it makes sense
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: in terms of the raw materials that
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: are a leading role and
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: the buy-in from that government's country.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: A country like Zimbabwe
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: and Zambia are very
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: critical in this kind of space
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: as well as the DRC, including
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Namibia with the green molecules
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: that they want to extract and
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: bring to Europe.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: We can look at a research
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: infrastructure that will enable
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: researchers from Europe,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: including the world, coming
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: to do research on the very topic
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: of that raw material
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: at source,
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: and be able to attract scientists
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: that would come around the world to
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: the continent,
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: similar to what we've done with the
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: SKAO in South Africa,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: where we will
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: be hosting what will be the largest
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: radio telescope when it's
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: completed its construction.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we, and I'm arguing
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: to say, if we don't
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: bring the science and we don't bring
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: the research infrastructures now,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: which is such an opportune time
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: where we have the bargaining chip,
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: Europe can foot the bill in
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: part and parcel together with us
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: if we're in agreement,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: because they're using the
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: global gateway to come
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: into this ball.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Including your countries like China,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: they can footing the bill because
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: they are very interested in those
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: raw materials.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think It's not that
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: they just want the raw materials.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: They may be able to put in a
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: lot more if we are able to define
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: what we want out of
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: this table.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: But if we don't define it,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: it's likely that we will miss
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: this boat and it's going to be
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: business as usual.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it's going to be just the
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: extraction of the raw materials,
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: leaving completely
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: the continent without much
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: of the beneficiation taking place.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to follow up on
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: what you've talked about and
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was wondering if you could
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: perhaps tell us more about
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: what you mean when you write "the
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: need for world-class research
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: infrastructure in Africa is
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: inseparable from the question
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: of equitable science diplomacy.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: The equitable part is
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: that obviously in partnership with
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: governments of national governments
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: in Africa,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: putting their priorities
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: on the table and their funding also
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: towards the research infrastructure.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Then demanding that
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: whoever comes in and wants
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: to extract raw
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: materials, they need to invest
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: in
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: the infrastructures for research.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because the beauty about science
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: is that it's more of a long-term
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: investment that you have to take.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: You won't see the immediate
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: returns now,
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: it's a long term, it's long game,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: but it's going to have huge
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: ripple effects
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: on the human capital
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: itself.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: And in such a very
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: diverse way, because we're dealing
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: about an infrastructure that
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: would be for research.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: It will produce scientists,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: it will also be producing
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: engineers, artisans,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: and many other factors around.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it tends to always have
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: spill-off effects beyond
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: just that research infrastructure.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the part
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: I advocate a
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: lot on the equitable partnership
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: component.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: It will also attract
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: researchers or international
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: collaboration, partners to come
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: and be vested into
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: the continent.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: I've learned that having been
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: in Europe as well for
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: this amount of time that I've been,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: especially also in Asia, most
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: of the time we take it for granted
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: that we assume that
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: people will be more knowledgeable
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: as we would be.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: For example, having come
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: from South Africa, I know a
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: lot on what's going on around the world.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because of the news feeds that one gets.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: But having been in Europe, I
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: realized there's not much news feeds
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: that come in about
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Africa.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: The only news feeds that people will
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: hear are related to either
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: a big crisis,
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: disease outbreak, Ebola,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: or war or killing that is taking place.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: And they don't get positive
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: feeds on what is
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: also happening in the continent.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: So now ordinarily,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: people have a dim and dark view
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: of the continent that
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: they would not even think
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: of research infrastructures being
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: held in the continent.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we need to change
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: this narrative and part and parcel
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: of me being here, being in the
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: dialogues that I engage on, is
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: to give this picture that
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: it's not dark and doom.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many pockets of
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: excellence that exist.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: It just takes time that we need
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: to go in.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hence, if you have the
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: infrastructures, it will break those silos.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: It will break that mindset and it
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: will assist people to
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: know on the capabilities
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: and the possibilities that exist
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: in Africa.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: And just to add to that, Eudy,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: I remember early this year when I
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: was in Brussels and attending
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: the science diplomacy meetings,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: you spoke a lot about the
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: different infrastructure
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: developments that we are having on
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: the African continents.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I know that our guests
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: are very curious because with
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: Africa, we don't only suffer from
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: misrepresentation, but we also don't always have the right
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: people to disseminate that
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: information.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: So for the sake of people who
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: are very curious,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: we know that African governments
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: have repeatedly committed
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: to spending 1% of their
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: GDP on research and development,
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: but you note that that spending
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: averages only about 0.3%.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: How much responsibility
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: do African governments themselves
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: bear for the imbalance that
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: you are describing?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think they bear a lot, but I
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: always try to
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: negotiate or rather position
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: this not
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: to impose the blame on African governments.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I always tried
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: to say, you only
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: know what you don't know.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, you will never
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: know more than what you do not know.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: So for
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: a great extent for the African
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: governments, a lot of
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: the budget is being
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: done at parliament.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it's parliamentarians who
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: are politicians who most
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: of the time do not
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: understand or do
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: not have a great sense and
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: appreciation of science.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: We all know science and
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: we see it as this
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: blue sky research.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And therefore it's just for the
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: clever people that are there and you
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: don't really see and connect the
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: dots with it.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the responsibility
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: also lies with us,
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: as the scientists
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: first, as
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: the educators, as the diplomats,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: in educating politicians.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because we do know that
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: it is the politicians who
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: allocate funding in
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: our parliament for our
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: administration of government and
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: ratify that funding for the year.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: How much are we doing in educating them
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: about the importance of science?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: But two,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: a huge number of the African
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: countries'
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: budget also is dependent on foreign
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: funding.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: That is another dynamic
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: we need to be addressing and dealing
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: with because when you are dependent
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: on another person's budget,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of the time, your budget is
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: dictated by the funder.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: So how do you manage those
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: dynamics to inform the funder
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: to say they also need to look at
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: funding research?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's also in their interest.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: And traditionally, the funders
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: come from the
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: North.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: So how do we
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: change the dialogue or the
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: narrative there
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: in assisting these
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: small or rather big changes
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: that are needed for more
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: funding to be allocated into
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: science?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: I strongly argue and
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: tell people, especially here in
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: Europe, that the lack of
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: investment in science is
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: to their detrimental,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: because a lot of the challenges that
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: we face today
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: have got
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: roots from lack of
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: funding of science in
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: the continent
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: and the Global South.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Issues of migration would
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: have never been there.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: People are seeking for a
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: better life.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: But if you invest where they live
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: and push that they have a better
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: life where they live, it will
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: also help you in
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: the future and your generation.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: would say that the challenge
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: has also been that it has always
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: been looked at in that competitive
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: manner, that if you educate or
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: get them to know more science,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: it's going to work against us
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: in the future because they'll be
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: more competitive.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: But if you don't do that,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: what more problems are you bringing
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: to yourself?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Which is what we currently are
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: facing.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: And how do we resolve these
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: problems?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked a lot about
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: infrastructure, money, and power.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of wanted to shift our
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: gears towards green
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: hydrogen.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: You've argued that green hydrogen
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: cooperation can simply mean
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: producing something in
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: South Africa and then exporting it
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: to Europe, right?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: What would a successful
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: partnership look like in that case?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: A successful partnership would look
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: like when both parties
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: win,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: not just one party.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I arrived in
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: Belgium, Brussels
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: in 2021.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: 2022, the war broke
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: out of Ukraine and Russia.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I saw the scrabble in Europe,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: or Brussels rather, that was
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: going on about green hydrogen
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: and having to go and extract the
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: green molecule from all
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: over the world, specifically in
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Africa.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: And they were going on about
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: green, green, green, green, green, and I was very
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: perplexed by the whole green, green, green.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: I said, if you're going to go green by 2030,
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: what happens to the rest of the
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: industry that is so fossil fuel?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: And what happens to the people
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: that are so dependent on this fossil
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: fuel industry as well?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then how do you justify
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: this green when you're going to
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: leave people behind and
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: cause so much unintended consequences?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: then on the continent side,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: the extraction of bringing this
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: renewable green
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: molecule to Europe,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: what are you then doing in the
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: continent that gives
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: assurance to the continent that this
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: renewable, green molecule is
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: going to do
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: good to the environment,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: but also to the people
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: in the continent?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I argued that for South
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Africa, we are not just looking at this green.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: We are looking at blue, pink,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: turquoise, all colors
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: that will ultimately get us
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: to green because we want it to
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: be a just transition.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: We acknowledge the fact that we need
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: to transit and
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: decarbonize.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: But we also
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: are very, very much
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: on the fact that's it can't
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: just leave.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: It also needs to be
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: domestically incorporated into
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: the country.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: We've seen even
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: trade wars that the EU
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: had put the CBAM, which is
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: a carbon border adjustment
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: mechanism, where they
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: penalize products that
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: are heavy in terms of CO2
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: that would not be allowed to
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: come into the country if they are
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: not green.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: And these commodities
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: were very much the
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: commodities that were the biggest
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: trading commodities between the
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: EU and South Africa.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we said, you're going to
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: penalize us, but you're not
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: also allowing for domestic
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: market in terms
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: of your, especially
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: including the beneficiation
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: component in that.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: And we argued we need to sit down
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: and debate this so that we find a
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: solution.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the major debates was
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: that we argued that they needed to
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: help us also to address
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: the hard to abate sectors.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: And especially on the
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: sectors where the commodities that
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: were being traded to Europe, such as
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: steel, cement,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: and there were some fertilizers that
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: were also put into that list.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: So we then say, you can
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: have the green molecule on condition
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: that you domesticate and
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: you leave some of it
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: for our usage in
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: order for our trade to reach
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: your side as well, green
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: as you want it to be, and then don't
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: exclude us.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: It can't be a one-off
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: situation.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: And the debates or rather the
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: negotiations are still ongoing.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: And South Africa is playing a very
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: critical role in trying to
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: ensure that we
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: are able
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: to decarbonize ourselves
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: in the process that Europe is
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: also decarbanizing.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: But we also want to use that
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: process, one, to upskill
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: our workforce, reskill
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: as well as our workforce that
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: are on heavy carbon intensive
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: industries.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: And lastly, to also
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: domesticate and attract
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: investment into the country in
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: terms of decarbonization companies
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: and so forth.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I would maybe if I hope
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: I've answered you correctly, because
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: I've just gone on a long winding
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: road, but it's the topic
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: that I'm mostly covering
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: as well in my office having
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: been in Brussels since.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I love that.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: So if that's the topic you're
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: covering, I think I have liberty to
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: press on it a little bit longer.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: So you've been talking
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: about finding, you know, mutual
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: collaboration, you know, that
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: symbiotic relationship.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: So science diplomacy is often
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: presented as something that
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: builds bridges, which you have
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: elaborated so precisely.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: But have you ever had to use
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: science diplomacy to
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: say no?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think so,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: in this context of the CBAM.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: We have been able
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: to say, in not so many
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: words, but no, in
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: the also briefing and engagements
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: with our line ministries,
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: where we have engaged them to
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: say listen, we
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: are part of these consortias,
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: and you can use our status and such
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: that we are able to
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: get a better footing on it.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: But beyond the
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: no, we've been an
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: instrument to be used
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: in such a way that we are able to
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: negotiate in finding a solution,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: especially in the trade relations
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: that we have between
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: the EU and
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: South Africa.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: We have been seen as this
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: good example of how
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: cooperation can work
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: in finding solutions.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: For example, in
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: matters that are related to the
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: critical raw materials,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: we engage and we have an MOU with
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: the Joint Research Center
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: in Europe. And the center, as you know,
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: is a research center that
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: provides evidence-based research
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: to the Commission for
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: them to make policy as well
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: that is informed on evidence.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: And they've currently working with
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: a research team in South Africa,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: which is called Numeri.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's a nuclear research, medical
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: research team.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: And they're looking at prostate
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: cancer.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: And at the moment, they are
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: also looking at how can
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: they rope in Namibia
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: in terms of their
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: nuclear raw
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: materials that they have.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: And because of the isotopes
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: that they're using in the
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: treatment for the cancer.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: And the meta on this and
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: the reason I'm raising is because it
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: talks to the raw materials.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: To say, if we bring in Namibia who
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: has these raw materials, we can
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: look at their skill set and bring
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: them in so that the
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: EU plays a role in
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: terms of solving
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: this challenge of the raw material's
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: leading role in Europe.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: But it's addressing a challenge that
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: is a global issue on cancer.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: And we can focus
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: and zoom on how we can
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: even ultimately figure out the
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: research infrastructure within that
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: topic, you know, which
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: talks to beneficiation,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: addressing societal challenges
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: and trade issues to
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: that matter.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: There are other pertinent issues
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: that are much more difficult and
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: they need more political weight
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: in it.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: But so far science has been a
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: very good example on how we've
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: used it to untangle
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: a very thorny
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: issue in the political
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: relations or the trade relations.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so we're entering a
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: period of research,
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: security, export controls,
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: technological competition.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: How do you keep international
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: science open when governments
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: across the world are increasingly
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: viewing it as a strategic
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: asset?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think in answering
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: that science
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: needs to be playing the
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: reminder role to the world
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: in terms of the competitiveness.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: I've always tried to
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: remind people in the dialogues
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: here in Europe to say we talk
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: green transition and
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: we talk competitiveness and
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: energy this.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I question it's energy
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: for who and for what, and
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: why did we even talk get
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: to the point of even talking about
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: green transition.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's because it comes
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: from the fact that we
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: have an unprecedented way
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: of using fossil fuels
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: that has damaged
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: the ozone layer of
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: the planet.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we need to remind ourselves
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: in this competitiveness
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: that if
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: we don't go back to the basic
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: principles and slow down
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: on these competitiveness, we're
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: going to derail ourselves from
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: achieving this goal and
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: it's going to be about this
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: competition that is there.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: I use this analogy a
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: lot and I tend to
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: always also use it to say,
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: we must imagine that the whole
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: world, we are in a boat
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: and that boat has a lot of holes
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: in it.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: And within those holes, it
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: seems as if with this
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: competitiveness, we want to
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: close certain holes in the North,
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: and we are forgetting about certain
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: holes in the South.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: And regardless
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: of whether you close the many holes
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: in the North, the boat is
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: still going to sink
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: if we don't close the holes also in the South.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: And we need to be reminded, and
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think research and scientists
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: have to come in to play
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: that advocacy role
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: of this is not about just
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: the solutions that one
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: can get and be competitive in
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: providing these solutions, but
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: it's about the global race
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: that we need to save the human
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: existence into
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: the very planet and how
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: we can create it and continue
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: to make it more habitable.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's the most
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: prominent part I think science
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: has a responsibility
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: to play in
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: the current space of
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: AI as well as
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: green transition and all
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: these ultimate things.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: We can take
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: benefit of take advantage
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: of the benefits that the
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: technologies bring.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: But we just need to remember the
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: basics of why we are here at the
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: first place.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: And just as I'm hearing you speak,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm actually reminded again of
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: the Ubuntu spirit in Africa,
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: where we remember that before
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: the competition and before the
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: race to the finish line,
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: we are all always affected.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if there's a hole in one
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: side of the world, it's
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: absolutely going to affect the other side.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's futile. It's a futile exercise if we don't
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: take into cognizant that part.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I just recently graduated
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: from the AI and Ethics
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: Fellowship, which was hosted by
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: the Policy Innovation Center.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: They are based off in Nigeria.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: And the conversations around AI
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: governance, you've brought that into
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: the conversation now.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: And we're asking the question
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: is Africa helping write
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: the rules around AI governance
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: or are we still fighting for a
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: seat at the table?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: What's your view from Brussels?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: I thinkj there's the talk that we're still fighting for the
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: seat, but I think Africa is
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: already shaping the
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: narrative on the topic.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: We've seen the UN appointing
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: certain African experts to come
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: in on board to advise the
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: secretary-general on AI.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: And part and parcel, there are
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: African researchers and scientists.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: An example is one of our top
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: researchers, a rated researcher
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: in South Africa, Professor Vukosi.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: He is one of the advisors
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: to the UN panel on AI.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: alone is a good sign that
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: we are contributing.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: We have also now AI
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: in science as a topic
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: that we have agreed between the EU and the AU.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Science diplomacy is also included
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: into that topic.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: And in those engagements
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: with the AU and the EU, we
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: are looking at concrete
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: ways in which we could collaborate
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: as the two continents.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: Not just the collaboration
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: being coming from Europe saying
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: we want to do this, but it's a
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: co-designed area of collaboration
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: where we will have a roundtable
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: end of this month and as a matter
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: of fact in Addis Ababa,
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: where we are also going to have a
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: ministerial who will endorse the
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: identified areas of activities
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: and areas of collaboration in
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: AI and science.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Following that, we're going to have
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: another same roundtable,
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: but in Pretoria, where we will have
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: our inaugural African Science
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Diplomacy Conference that will take
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: place at the CSIR in
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: South Africa.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think those
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: elements of engagements that are
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: coming in are
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: a sign to say we are not just
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: a dot or a non-player,
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: but we are shaping
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: and we're trying to shape the
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: engagements on equitable footing,
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: where there's equitable partnership
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: because it's co-engaged,
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: co-designed.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: I sit in one of the, in both the
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: committee, steering committee
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: members, where we
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: basically design the concept notes,
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: propose some of the speakers that
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: should come in, examples of
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: what is happening in the continent
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: that we should bring forward, that
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: they could look into, and how
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: we then, including examples
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: in Europe for that matter, that they
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: need to also show us, and how
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: we find synergies in
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: which we could identify areas
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: of collaboration that should be
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: taken forward.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's those elements that
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: things are taking place, but also
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: there's another layer that is not
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: talked about.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: The private sector is very active
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: in this narrative itself.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: Private sector in the continent have
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: created associations amongst
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: themselves to make sure that
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: there is visibility of what they are
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: doing, there's collaboration within
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: their like-minded partners
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: that are taking place.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know in South Africa, there's a
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: private sector initiative on
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: AI that is going to also
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: be holding a congress end of the
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: month of October.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it brings in different kinds
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: of partners from around the
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: continent as well.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: I know there are also associations
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: in Kenya that are
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: in this space engaging.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: So at a policy
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: level, it may seem as if there's not
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: much going on, but from bottom-up
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: approach, there's quite
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: a number and vibrant engagements
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: that are taking place.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: But we do try also at
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: the policy level in terms of
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: intergovernmental to make these
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: kind of inputs and
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: collaboration that are
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: defined in terms of the equitable
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: partnerships.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to move into what
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: success looks like for you
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: in your work so far and
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: ask you this question.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think is one
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: concrete thing you've helped make
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: happen from Brussels that
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: perhaps wouldn't have happened if
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: not for science diplomacy?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to give a very immediate
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: situation.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: We have had proposal
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: that we submitted in
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: the EU called STRVE.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's an initiative
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: in whereby we
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: are trying to
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: assist the South African
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: previously disadvantaged
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: universities
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: in having an
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: input and engaging within
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: the EU framework
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: Program such as EHorizon
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: Europe.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: We know that Horizon
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: Europe is about
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: science excellence,
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: and by science excellence
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: that by virtue
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: is excluding.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: So when it excludes,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: you leave so many out
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: of the
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: discourse and the engagement.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: And for South Africa, it's
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: an important thing that we bring
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: more parties along on
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: board.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: And our historically disadvantaged
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: universities are
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: mainly those that are
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: in rural areas,
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: they are mostly also under-resourced, and
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: they lack research infrastructure.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: situation where we
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: want to address that because
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: it has a lot to do with
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: inequalities.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: And they've been in that position due to the
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: disadvantage that they were put on
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: due to history.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: So we then partnered with
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: European institutions.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: For example, Flavius is
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: a Belgian academic agency
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: that we partnered with and we
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: submitted this proposal.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's called Science, Technology,
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: Research,
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: Internationalization and Innovation
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: Enhancement in Support of the
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: Green Transition.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: And we are going to
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: do training at
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: universities in South Africa.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: But this training, the unique
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: part is we are going to bring the
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: South African universities that
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: have been leading and been
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: able to have high success
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: rate in getting
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: Horizon Europe funding
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: to teach these
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: previously disadvantaged
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: institutions on what
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: mechanisms and
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: systems do you
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: have to put in place within
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: their institutions where
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: they can be able to
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: have grant
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: writing expertise,
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: they could be able to have a
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: fully functional technology
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: transfer office that would be able
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: to process issues of IP
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: and licensing
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: as well as spin-off.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: And how to also create living labs and
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: then be able to write proposals
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: that are of high
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: excellence that the EU is
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: looking for.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we were able to
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: submit this proposal and we
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: received a positive response
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: on this proposal, which
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: had a success rate
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: of about 89%,
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: which is a very high percentage for
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: the EU Horizon Framework.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a success
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: in the context that
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: had I not been in the office,
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: I could not have been able to link
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: with the Belgian agency
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: who has a very strong interest
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: in the same topic.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: And for them, this is
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: also bringing in their institutions
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: that have not been able to also be
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: successful in the Horizon Framework.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it's going to be a capacitation
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: training as well
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: as exposure to those institutions.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's going be a three-year project.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: But interestingly, we are linking it
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: with green transition.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: So the green transition comes
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: to the effect that
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: we want that
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: the institutions that are hubbed in
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: the South African Hydrogen
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: Valley are the ones
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: that are able to connect.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: How do we use this
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: green transition for
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: their institution and how
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: do they then do they capacitate
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: themselves to strengthening
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: their research excellence in this regard?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's one successful project
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: I want to highlight.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: There's many more, but this one is
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: the most recent and the most
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: proudest I am, because
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: it links to the fact that if the
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: office was not here, it wouldn't
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: have been even possible.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: And speaking of successful
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: projects, you spent part
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: of your career representing South
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_03: Africa in Japan.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_03: And what did working
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: in Asia teach you that
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: Europeans could learn about
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: scientific partnerships with Africa?
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: Patience. I appreciate the
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: Asian, especially the Japanese
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: way of doing business.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I appreciate it because
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: it takes time.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: And the only reason it takes time
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: is because of the trust building.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I was in Japan
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: for five and a half years.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: In that five and half years,
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: I built the network and
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: the linkages between South Africa
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: and Japan on the hydrogen economy.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I left with
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: two big projects that were then
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: funded towards the end of my time,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: that were then funded.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: Till this day, those projects are
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: going on and they're going bigger.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: And the part that I
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: would wish for Europe
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: is not the hasty movement of
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: things, but the trust
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: relationship that is
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: important to be built,
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: which will last a long,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: long, long time to go.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because when you do things
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: at that painstaking process,
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: they are able to
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: withstand the test of time
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: because there's so many strong
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: ties and trust that have been built
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: that the
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: Asians or at least the Japanese
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: are so good at.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: It grew into a point where
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: there's been a contribution on
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: hydrogen and energy and now it's
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: on the point of commercialization.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I would put forward,
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: that we don't rush things and we
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: thoroughly work on
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: this trust building in order to
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: understand both sides.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I was wondering throughout
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: all of these different projects
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: that you get to work on and
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: different negotiations,
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: if your job is
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: successful, which clearly
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: it looks like it is very much so,
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: what kind of changes back home in South Africa?
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: How do you measure that success? Is it funding?
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is it new laboratories, companies,
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: jobs, political influence?
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: How does that success look like?
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: The success looks like young child coming from a rural area who
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: gets funded by my department
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_02: as getting a scholarship
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: and they get to their
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: masters and then get
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: funding with international
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: partners to do their PhDs
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: and they come to that
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: other part of the world and
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: they bring their network back
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: home to do research
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: collaboration,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: and from that research collaboration
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: that they're doing, they are
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: solving societal challenges
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: as global partners.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: And we have seen that success
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: in the many different
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: thematic areas of
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: South Africa that we have
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: facilitated as the Department of
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: Science Technology and Innovation.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: There's many kids or youngsters
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: who are now adults who
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: come back and they'll meet me
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: in Europe and say, I was an alumni
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_02: from this program and
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: now I'm working with
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: the Dutch or
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: the different partners
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: and I'm going back
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_02: home and I am going to
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: be doing something that is
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: linked to pulling
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: back into the community again.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: And people get jobs, people get
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: upskilled, people
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: are able to pull
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: their struggling families
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: out of poverty into
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: a better livelihood and
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: that's the success in terms
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: of the work that one does
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: that we bring home.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: I know most of the time,
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_02: and I'm very appreciative
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: of the fact that science is more
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: long-term, but I know a
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: lot that we have invested 10,
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_02: 20 years down the line.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: It sees the light in a much more
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: transformative way.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you had one thing to
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: tell an aspiring scientist
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: or just a student from
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: any part of South Africa right
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: now, and if they were listening to
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: this podcast, what would you have to
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: share with them?
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: Stick at it, and
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: most importantly,
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: grow your network.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: Your network is your biggest asset.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: Meet people, go and engage
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: in events.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: If you're invited,
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: go there, exchange network,
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: follow through the network, by the way.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: When you get the business card,
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: send that email, engage with
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: them, keep that network in
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: your radar.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because something, somewhere,
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: somehow will connect the dot to
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: that network.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: It may not seem relevant when you
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_02: get that business card, but
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: there's a way in which there's a
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: full circle in life that it will
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: connect that person.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_02: And you need to tap back into that,
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: leave a lasting impression by
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: being able to respond and send
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_02: an email to the person to indicate
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: how nice it was.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: And you grow your
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: network through that.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think that has been one of my
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: biggest assets as well in the
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: context of international space
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: that I'm in.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still able to tap into someone in Japan.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still able to tip into someone
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: deep in rural, somewhere in South
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: Africa and engage them and tell them
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: of opportunities that are connected
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: to what I remember they've
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: informed me about.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: So the network, especially the
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: younger generation, I think it's
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: important with the fact
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_02: that people are so socially and
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: digitally connected.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: Try to do this human connection
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: more.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: It goes a long, long way
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: and it will pay you off in the
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: future to network.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you again for
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: joining us in this episode.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was such a delight to
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: learn more about your work.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is The Science Diplomat signing
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: off.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.