Latest / The conspiracy / John Wayne Gacy DID NOT Act Alone. Here's The Proof.

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John Wayne Gacy DID NOT Act Alone. Here's The Proof. · The conspiracy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: When it comes to famous killers, none are as infamous
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: as John Wayne Gacy, otherwise known as the Killer Clown,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: and Dean Coral, known as the Candy Man. These two
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  Speaker 1: serial killers terrorized their respective communities in a way that
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  Speaker 1: boggles the heart and mind, carrying out calculated attacks against
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  Speaker 1: young men and teenage boys throughout Illinois and Texas. At
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  Speaker 1: first glance, these names might seem like they stem from
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  Speaker 1: different stories of horror. The murders were, after all, conducted
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  Speaker 1: on opposite ends of the country, separated by both time
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  Speaker 1: and circumstance. However, there might be more similarities between these
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  Speaker 1: two stories than one might think. One man may have
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  Speaker 1: connected these two infamous serial killers, a man already heinously evil,
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  Speaker 1: all on his own. All three of these men, their
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  Speaker 1: motives darker than a midnight's shadow, left a legacy that
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  Speaker 1: crossed beyond the pale.
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  Speaker 2: And even more.
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  Speaker 1: Disturbingly, they may have been working together, producing and more
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: in a shocking twist to an already harrowing story. Their
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  Speaker 1: tales may intertwine a vine of insidious movements that connect
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  Speaker 1: and unexpected and as disturbing ways. Even more disturbing, the
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  Speaker 1: one who connected the two, John David Norman was linked
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  Speaker 1: to multiple members of the highest levels of the United
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  Speaker 1: States government spanning years and miles. These three men may
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  Speaker 1: have been operating in a coordinated dance of death, one
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  Speaker 1: that profited off of our nation's children and them to
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  Speaker 1: one's meant to oversee our government. But could these connections
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  Speaker 1: really exist? Could John Wayne Gacy and Dean Coral have
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  Speaker 1: been operating together through John David Norman, not just to
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  Speaker 1: commit crimes and young boys, but also to film those murders,
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  Speaker 1: to film those and sell the videos for cash. Was
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  Speaker 1: there truly a network of death that catered to our
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  Speaker 1: nations leaders well? In the web of lies and shadows,
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  Speaker 1: one needs only to shine a light to see the
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  Speaker 1: shocking bonds that exist. Relationships, associations, ties, These words all
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  Speaker 1: generally have a positive connotation. We think of these words
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  Speaker 1: when we imagine those close to us, the people we
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  Speaker 1: love the most. When it comes to the story of
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  Speaker 1: these three heinous criminals, their form becomes something far more monstrous,
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  Speaker 1: an unthinkable circle of hatred and evil that threatens innocence
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  Speaker 1: and joy as we know it. On today's episode of
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: the show, We are Going Deep and Dark. This is
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  Speaker 1: part two of our John David Norman series. If you
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  Speaker 1: want to get more background information on John David Norman,
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  Speaker 1: what he got away with, the high profile connections he
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: had in the government that were protecting him, and you
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  Speaker 1: want to learn his story inside out, go listen to
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  Speaker 1: the last episode in this three part series. But as always,
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  Speaker 1: all parties are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a
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  Speaker 1: court of law. If you want to see where I
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  Speaker 1: gathered this information from, you can check the resources document
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  Speaker 1: that I post every single week in the description of
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  Speaker 1: the show. All parties presented on today's show are solely
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: mine Colin Brown, the host and producer of The Conspiracy Files,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: and I don't plan on going anywhere or doing anything
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: to myself anyways, y'all, let's do a deep dive. Hey,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: if you want to listen to this show fully uncensored,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: please consider listening on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, anywhere where you
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: get podcasts. You can listen to the show for free.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Or if you want to help support the work that
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: I do here and thank you to those of you
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: who do support me in this way, you can watch
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: all the episodes completely uncensored on my Patreon account. The
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: link is in the description of this video five dollars
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: a month if you want to get unfiltered, uncensored access.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: To all these episodes. And yeah, you can help me.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Grow the show by supporting me in that way. Anyways, Guys,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: be sure to like, share, comment, and subscribe. Let me
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: know what you think of this in the comment section.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: I love hearing from you, guys, so please, above everything,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: be sure to comment. And uh yeah, let's get back
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: into this.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: So a little bit of an update. I'm sorry guys.
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  Speaker 1: By the way, if you're watching this on YouTube, you
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  Speaker 1: can see the studio might look a little wonky. I'm
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  Speaker 1: actually converting this whole studio into a completely different use.
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  Speaker 2: You guys can't.
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  Speaker 1: See beyond what I see when I'm filming. I'm looking
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  Speaker 1: at the room and I know I can't turn the
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  Speaker 1: camera from here, but it just looks completely one hundred
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  Speaker 1: percent different than it did the last time I recorded.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm still in the process. If you could see
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  Speaker 1: what I'm looking at as junk and piles everywhere, So yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it might look a little different, but I promise we're
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  Speaker 1: gonna it's gonna be even better when this is all
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: set up and done, and you guys are gonna like
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  Speaker 1: what I'm doing here just as a side note, a
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: personal side note John David Norman.
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  Speaker 2: His story is so crazy to me.
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  Speaker 1: He, in my opinion, represents one of the clearest cases,
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  Speaker 1: if not the clearest case of a guy who was
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: clearly running with government connections and some sort of protection
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  Speaker 1: because of those index cards that kept, you know, being
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  Speaker 1: found at crime scenes, that disappeared multiple times, that were
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  Speaker 1: destroyed by the State Department, and the lack of prosecutions
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  Speaker 1: and the people that were supposedly on those cards. It's
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  Speaker 1: such a clear example that these things do happen and
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: have happened that if people you know, comment on different
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: shows that I've done or talk to me in person,
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  Speaker 1: so I don't believe that this you know, is true,
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  Speaker 1: I send him this story because it's just it's mind blowing.
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  Speaker 1: And this is kind of the beginning of constructing serial Killers.
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  Speaker 1: That's a series I want to do here on the
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Channel next year in twenty twenty six, is deconstructing famous
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  Speaker 1: serial killers. Obviously, we're talking about Dean Coral in Houston's
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  Speaker 1: where I live. I actually did a documentary about Coral
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  Speaker 1: a few years back, and I went to a bunch
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  Speaker 1: of the sites from his murder spree, and also John
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  Speaker 1: Wayne Gacy. Gasey is incredibly infamous. Their stories are not
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  Speaker 1: the stories that the mainstream media and true crime.
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  Speaker 2: Media have taught you that they are.
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  Speaker 1: They're so much darker and so much deeper. And a
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  Speaker 1: great book is Programmed.
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  Speaker 2: To Kill by Dave McGowan.
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  Speaker 1: It is an incredible work, and I'm going to be
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  Speaker 1: using that text as a launching point for a number
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  Speaker 1: of episodes in the next few months, including I Want
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  Speaker 1: to do BTK, We're gonna cover Son of Sam. We're
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: going to talk about a lot of these really famous
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  Speaker 1: crime stories that when you look just beyond the surface,
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  Speaker 1: begin to fall apart, and then you have accomplices and
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  Speaker 1: ulterior motives, missing evidence, dead witnesses, just the same as
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  Speaker 1: you would see in a case. You see that with
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  Speaker 1: a lot of these major serial killer stories from the seventies, eighties,
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  Speaker 1: early to mid late nineties, early two thousands.
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  Speaker 2: There's a lot of cover ups going on.
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  Speaker 1: And there are links to the government with that too,
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  Speaker 1: and the Phoenix Project and Vietnam era mind experiments that
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: were happening overseas, but we're gonna save that for that series.
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  Speaker 1: Let me know, though, if you're watching on YouTube or
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  Speaker 1: if you're listening, and you can leave a comment, like
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  Speaker 1: on Spotify, what is one serial killer story that you'd
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  Speaker 1: like me to go through and try to deconstruct because
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  Speaker 1: there are a number that are so so interesting, from
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  Speaker 1: you know, Manson and the CIA to all these other
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  Speaker 1: guys that I just named. So let me know what
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  Speaker 1: you would like to see. And I'm going to start
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  Speaker 1: making a list and if one comment, let's say, on YouTube,
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  Speaker 1: gets a ton of likes, I will choose that story.
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  Speaker 1: But Steve in all this begins with one name, but
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  Speaker 1: ends with bodies beneath the boat shed and children hidden
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  Speaker 1: beneath the crawl space. To understand these ties that bind,
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  Speaker 1: we must first understand the names of those involved.
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  Speaker 2: Some may not know about.
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  Speaker 1: On Wayne Gaysey if they're new to the world of
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  Speaker 1: true crime. For a not so quick introduction, John Wayne
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  Speaker 1: Gacy was a serial killer held accountable for the deaths
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  Speaker 1: of thirty three teenaged boys and young men, though he
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  Speaker 1: may have killed many more. All this death and destruction
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  Speaker 1: occurred in Cook County, Illinois, in the city of Chicago.
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  Speaker 1: Most of his victims would be found to be buried
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  Speaker 1: beneath his house with all of the murders being committed
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  Speaker 1: inside Gaysey's Norwood Park home. Unlike what most people would believe,
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  Speaker 1: Gaysey was a very complex character, one who was well
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  Speaker 1: liked in his Chicago community. We all might picture a
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  Speaker 1: serial killer as being a hermit who hides away in
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  Speaker 1: a cold, dark place, only coming out at night to
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  Speaker 1: find a new victim. However, Gaysey was an extremely popular
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  Speaker 1: face at community events, fundraisers, and parties. He also had
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  Speaker 1: a unique cover in the form of a pair of
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  Speaker 1: alter egos that would later form his serial killer identity,
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  Speaker 1: Pogo and Patches the Clown. To understand who Gaysey was, though,
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  Speaker 1: you have to look at how he became a killer.
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  Speaker 1: Born on March seventeenth, nineteen forty two, John Wayne Gaysee
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  Speaker 1: endured a horrible childhood so at the hands.
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  Speaker 2: Of his alcoholic father. His dad saw.
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  Speaker 1: Him as weak and a failure even from a young age.
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  Speaker 1: As a testament to how evil Gaisey's father was, Gasey
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  Speaker 1: and his two sisters would be beaten with a razor
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  Speaker 1: strap if they were perceived to be misbehaving by their
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  Speaker 1: strict and cruel disciplinarian father. Gaysey was as well by
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  Speaker 1: multiple people between the ages of six and ten. Undoubtedly
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  Speaker 1: these struggles played a part in the monster that he
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  Speaker 1: would become later on. Severe trauma of this sort leaves
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  Speaker 1: an indelible mark upon the psyche, which, as we know,
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  Speaker 1: can last throughout someone's entire life. Still, there is proof
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  Speaker 1: he was already beginning to become this dark person when,
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  Speaker 1: between the ages of ten and twelve, Gaysey and one
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  Speaker 1: of his friends were accused of a young girl. Though
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  Speaker 1: only ten or twelve at the time, Gasey was certainly
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  Speaker 1: at an age where he knew better than to do
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  Speaker 1: such a thing. Clearly, it was certainly an early sign
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  Speaker 1: of Gaysey's dark proclivities, but the truth of all his
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  Speaker 1: evil would not be revealed until much later. In the meantime,
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  Speaker 1: though he had more suffering to endure. Gaysey did not
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  Speaker 1: graduate from high school, nor was school in general a
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  Speaker 1: good experience for him. He was a sickly child, uncoordinated, overweight,
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  Speaker 1: and other kids were cruel to him. Gasey was socially alienated,
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  Speaker 1: as he couldn't play sports, nor could he bond with
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  Speaker 1: other children in his age group. But the most saddening
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  Speaker 1: aspect of Gaysey's childhood is that he couldn't even unchain
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  Speaker 1: himself from his suffering to play games. Gasey suffered a
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  Speaker 1: congenital heart condition, yet another reason for him to suffer
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  Speaker 1: the ire of his father for being weak. He suffered
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  Speaker 1: from frequent blackouts and seizures as well while a teenager,
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  Speaker 1: and was a common face at the nearby hospitals. Most tragically,
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  Speaker 1: though Gaysey suffered true medical problems, his father accused him
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  Speaker 1: of faking his sicknesses and ailments for attention. Yet there
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  Speaker 1: was still more Gaycy had to endure. In a day
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  Speaker 1: and age where being gay was neither completely legal nor
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  Speaker 1: socially acceptable, Gaysey discovered he was attracted to men. This
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  Speaker 1: understanding of himself caused great inner turmoil. Where we today
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  Speaker 1: are more accepting of the LGBTQI plus community, in the
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  Speaker 1: middle of the twentieth century, it was practically a social
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  Speaker 1: death sentence in more ways than one. Being gay was
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  Speaker 1: looked at as being akin to a horrible crime, with
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  Speaker 1: some gay men even being simply because of who they
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  Speaker 1: were attracted to. Naturally, for that period, Gaysey was likely
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  Speaker 1: very distraught over his sexuality. In that day and age,
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  Speaker 1: he could neither be in an open relationship with a man,
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  Speaker 1: nor even really talk about it. Moreover, in that era,
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  Speaker 1: being gay was looked at as a sort of illness.
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  Speaker 1: Quite literally. Homosexuality was actually classified as a psychiatric illness
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  Speaker 1: by the American Psychiatric Association and wasn't removed as such
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  Speaker 1: until the seventies. Due to these societal views, Gaysey may
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  Speaker 1: have even perceived himself as being wrong for his innate sexuality.
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  Speaker 1: Having dealt with so much trauma in his life, perhaps
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  Speaker 1: created some kind of monster within Gaysey that was not
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  Speaker 1: there to begin with. It's impossible to say if he
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  Speaker 1: would have been the same reprehensible killer if he had
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  Speaker 1: not gone through such trials. But in the end, trauma
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  Speaker 1: isn't to blame. It was the sick, evil desires in
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  Speaker 1: his heart that would reveal a lot lovable neighborhood clown
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  Speaker 1: as the visage of a nightmare, and now that he
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  Speaker 1: was an adult, it would only be a short time
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  Speaker 1: until that nightmare began. John Wayne Gacy, like I said,
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  Speaker 1: never graduated from high school, but he did attend and
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  Speaker 1: graduate from Northwestern Business College in Chicago. After graduating, he
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  Speaker 1: worked as a salesman and a manager at a shoe company.
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  Speaker 1: It wasn't long until in nineteen sixty four, Gasey met
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  Speaker 1: Marilynd Myers, whose father owned three KFC locations in Waterloo, Iowa.
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  Speaker 1: The two got engaged, and Gaysey relocated to Waterloo in
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  Speaker 1: order to manage his father in law's businesses. Well married,
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  Speaker 1: John and Maryland had two children together. Especially in those days,
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  Speaker 1: it wasn't at all uncommon for gay men to marry
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  Speaker 1: women anyway, and even have children with them to blend
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  Speaker 1: in with society. Around nineteen seventy, Gaysey got interested in politics.
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  Speaker 1: He became a self made building contractor and Democratic precinct captain,
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  Speaker 1: and Gaysey himself would later say that these were likely
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  Speaker 1: efforts he made in order to feel accepted. This is
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  Speaker 1: around the time that Gaysey became well liked in his community,
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  Speaker 1: organizing get togethers and joining political organizations. He also joined
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: the Jayce's Civil Group, and Gaysey would later recall this
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  Speaker 1: as being the happiest period of his life. Gaisey had
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: lived his whole life without the approval of his father. However,
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  Speaker 1: something about Gaysey's new affiliations seemed to win his father over.
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  Speaker 1: Gaisey later stated that during this time his dad said
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  Speaker 1: that he had been wrong about his son. In other words,
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  Speaker 1: Gaisey finally got his approval. He had dreams at that
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  Speaker 1: point of running for mayor or even the state senate.
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  Speaker 1: He was very popular in his political groups, and it
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  Speaker 1: seemed he may have had a good chance if he
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  Speaker 1: actually had. But all these plans changed when in nineteen
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  Speaker 1: sixty eight, Gaysey was arrested for the first time on
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  Speaker 1: a charge of a teenage boy and then attempting to
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  Speaker 1: do the same to another. His trial was set, and
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  Speaker 1: throughout the course of the proceedings, Gaysey would vehemently deny
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  Speaker 1: all the allegations. As a testament to how well Gasey
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  Speaker 1: hid his inner monster, some of his community members took
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  Speaker 1: his side, choosing to believe him over the victim. Gasey
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  Speaker 1: knew he was guilty, though, and that his victims could
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  Speaker 1: prove it, so to silence his victim from speaking at
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  Speaker 1: the upcoming trial, swayed in one of his KFC employees
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: to the young man, but these efforts proved fruitless and
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  Speaker 1: even further damaging. The employee was arrested soon after the
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: took place, and he confessed that Gaysey had put him
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  Speaker 1: up to it. Shortly afterwards, Gaysey was convicted and received
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  Speaker 1: a ten year sentence for his crime. When Gaysey was
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  Speaker 1: found out to be the monster that he was, Maryland
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  Speaker 1: divorced him and took sole.
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  Speaker 2: Custody of their children.
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  Speaker 1: Now, John Wayne Gaysey wasn't in prison for long, however,
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  Speaker 1: He was released on parole in nineteen seventy after serving
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  Speaker 1: only eighteen months of his ten year sentence. Unfortunately, this
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  Speaker 1: brush with incarceration would prove to be too little to
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  Speaker 1: persuade Gaysey away from committing crimes. He was arrested again
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  Speaker 1: soon after his release when another teenage boy came forward
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: with allegations of However, the boy never appeared at the
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: trial set to test the claims of veracity, and the
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  Speaker 1: charges were dropped. Following this event, Gaysey decided it was
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: time to leave Iowa. Owing to some financial assistance from
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: his mother, Gaysey then returned to Illinois, where he would
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  Speaker 1: buy the home at eighty two thirty one West Summerdale Avenue,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: the very sight of his infamous villainy. It was nineteen
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  Speaker 1: seventy one when Gaysey would start his construction business PDM Contractors,
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  Speaker 1: and the rapidly growing business would provide a hunting ground
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  Speaker 1: for Gaysey's sick machinations. The business was very successful, and
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Gaysey soon married Carol Hoff, an apparent high school sweetheart.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: After their marriage in seventy two, Gaysey's dark appetites seemed
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: to be inflamed. PDM contractors hired mostly young men in
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: high school students, many of whom Gaysey would harass, using
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: his position as their boss to coerce the young men
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: into having them, many times under the threat of violence.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Yet still while young men in threatening them in exchange
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: for non consensuals, Gaysey kept up a well maintained facade
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: of a community man. He hosted summer parties that were
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: very popular among the members of his community, and these
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: parties never went without a high attendance count. Meanwhile, though,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: the true darkness had already begun behind the walls of
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: his Norwood Park home. In January of nineteen seventy two,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Gaysey lured Timothy McCoy, a sixteen year old boy, in
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: to his home for the next morning, Gasey woke to
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  Speaker 1: fine McCoy standing in the bedroom doorway with a knife.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Gasey rushed the young man, wrestling the knife away from him,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: but he didn't stop there.
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  Speaker 2: He then claiming his.
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  Speaker 1: First life in a long series of grisly murders. Even
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: more tragic, the boy hadn't been trying to harm Gaysey.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: He had been holding the knife because he had made
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: them both breakfast.
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  Speaker 2: But even though he had just.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Got a teenage boy in cold blood, Gaysey was feeling fine.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Better than fine, In fact, he felt incredible. Gaysey, seeing
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: McCoy's body on the floor, realized that he got gratification
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: from the young boy. Later on in interviews, Gaysey would
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: say of this moment, that's when I realized that death
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: was the ultimate thrill. Pathologically, Gasey may have been chasing
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: the power and dominance he had never gotten as a child.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: He'd always felt weak and powerless, but now he had
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: the power to take lives. This became a drug for Gaysey,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: and soon enough he would seek out his next victim.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Timothy McCoy was allegedly the first, but he would not
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: be the last by any means. Gasey's next victim was
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: eighteen year old John Bukovich, an employee of his construction company.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: He lured the young boy to his home with a
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: facade of discussing over due pay that the boy was owed,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: but once he arrived, Gaysey pressed alcohol on him got
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: him to put on a pair of handcuffs, which was
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: his signature trick, and once he was powerless, Gaysey s
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: The death Gaysey in these handcuffs would become a theme.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: He would allege that he was about to show the
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: young men a magic trick, and he would actually convince
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: the victims to put the handcuffs on themselves that would
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: eventually lead to their deaths. Bukovich's parents were always suspicious
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: of Gaysey, and after their son disappeared, they urged the
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: police to investigate Gaysey. Countless times they would place over
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: one hundred calls to the local police department, but all
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: to no avail. After a while, Gasey began to find
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: a groove for his horrifying acts, entering what he sickeningly
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: called his cruising period, where he committed the grand majority
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: of his murders during the mid nineteen seventies. He also
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: lost his marriage. During this time, Gaysey had finally revealed
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: to his second wife that he was gay, though he
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: stated he was by sexual The two had stopped sleeping together,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: with Gaysey even telling his wife that he would no
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: longer have with her After an intimate Mother's Day Marilyn
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: eventually began to notice Gaysey bringing young men into their
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: garage at late hours, and she became suspicious about the
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: nights when Gaysey would stay out late, saying he had
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: extra meetings or work to perform. Maryland also began to
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: find in the house, as well as the wallets of
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: other men. The two finally filed for divorce in nineteen
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: seventy five, stating that Gacy had been unfaithful, but the
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: two filed on the grounds that he had been sleeping
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: with other women, covering for Gaysey's homosexuality. Marylnd lived with
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Gaysey until nineteen seventy six, and the divorce was finalized
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: on the second of February.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: When Marilyn left the home.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Gaysey was finally free to carry out his murders with
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: no one watching over his shoulder. And now that Gaysey
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: was free to kill as he wished, nothing could stop him.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: He had already killed several victims, and he knew where
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: he would hide the bodies, burying them in the crawl
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: space beneath his home. John Boukovich had been buried under
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: the concrete floor of the garage, where he had intended
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: to dig in drain tile, but this wouldn't continue to work.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: One of the more disturbing anecdotes from Gaysey's story is
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: that one of his victims dug the very trenches where
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: he would hide the bodies. Gregory Godzick, the seventeen year
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: old PDM employee, had told his family that he had
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: dug the crawl space out and made the trenches, and
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Gaysey would later on say that he used the space
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: that Gregory dug to create the graves of his victims.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: When Gaysey killed god Sick in December of nineteen seventy
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: six and the boy was reported missing, his family contacted Gaysey,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: and he told the terrified family that their son had
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: simply run away. Gasey was already a master of manipulation,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: using his outward guys as a community man to hide
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: the darkness lurking below. Around this time was another development
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: for Gaysey, one that people might think is harmless and
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: even sweet if they didn't know the evil intentions behind
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: the decision. In late nineteen seventy five, Gasey found a
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: clever way to make himself look innocuous. He was a
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: member of the Chicago Moose Club of fraternal organization. Through
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: it he found out about the Jolly Joker Clown Club
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: in the The Clown Club was a group of members
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: who regularly volunteered to perform at parades and fundraisers, even
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: children's hospitals. As if someone couldn't already barely handle the
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: thought of this man volunteering at a children's hospital was
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: made worse by the fact that Gaysey was actively using
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: this as a cover for his murders. Gaysey performed as
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: a clown throughout the years of his active murders, creating
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: his two famous alter egos, Pogo the clown and Patches
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: the clown dressed in fanciful clothing and his face slathered
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: in brightly colored makeup. No one would guess the kind
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: of man lurking beneath. Pogo was a bright and joyful character. Meanwhile,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: Patches was considered to be more serious. But Gaysey had
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: a plan with all this. While in conversation with detectives
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: later on, he would discuss his work as a clown,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: saying clowns can get away with murder. These chilling words
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: summed up his experience as Pogo and Patches, showing that
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: the man lurking beneath was only using them as a disguise.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: After all, who could accuse a clown of the things
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Gaysey would be found out to have been doing. But
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Gaysey allegedly had other reasons for wanting to perform as
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: a clown. According to him, it allowed him to regress
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: into childhood. These clown performances would ultimately lead to his
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: fame to title the Killer Clown. During this period of
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: his life, Gaysey killed several more victims. Gaysey was confident
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: in his ability to not get caught skating by the law,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: despite countless tips being sent into the police. He was
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: so confident, in fact, that he let one of his
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: victims live. Nineteen year old Robert Donnelly was a college
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: student whom Gaysey abducted from a bus stop in Chicago
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: in the final days of nineteen seventy seven. After being
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: brought to his home, he was by Gaysey and brutally tortured.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: He dumped the young man's head and water until he
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: passed out from loss of air, and Gaysey performed mock
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: executions on him using a gun filled with blanks. Donnelly
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: was allegedly in so much pain from Gaysey's torture that
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: he begged the man to kill him, but Gaysey refused,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: instead letting him go and demanding that he'd never tell
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: a soul. Donnelly, though of course, reported him to the police,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: Yet it would seem that Gaysey's community man cover one
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: through and through. The police investigated, but when Gasey stated
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: that the encounter was a sort of interaction and consensual,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: the police believed him over his victim. Most hauntingly, Gaysey
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: would kill another victim only about a month later. This
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: interestingly mirrored one of the most famous murders committed by
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer, where one of his victims escaped clearly in
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: physical distress and the police believed his killer over him.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: For two years, Gasey stalked the streets of Chicago almost unimpeded,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: capturing young men or alluring them to his home and
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: slaying them in cold blood, afterwards dumping them beneath his
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: house and leaving them to rot. By the year nineteen
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: seventy eight, Gasey had disturbingly run out of room for
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: bodies beneath his crawl space, and at this point he
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: decided to begin disposing of his victims by throwing them
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: off of a bridge off Interstate fifty five into the
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Displain's River. Gaysey was an unstoppable monster, having killed at
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: least thirty young men and boys. He was able to
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: by this point dupe the police out of every tight spot,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: but finally his evil caught up to him. It was
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: the eleventh of December of nineteen seventy eight when Robert
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: peecedeen year.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Old boy went missing.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: He had told his mother that he was going to
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: meet John Wayne Gacy about a construction job, but when
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: their boy never came home, the Peace family filed the
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: missing Persons report. The investigation into the disappearance of the
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: young man led the police to Gaysey's Norwood Park home,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: and these officials found several suspicious items, including badges from policemen,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: a gun, films, and hypodermic needles. They also located items
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: that would later turn out to be the belongings of
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: his victims. The police spent a considerable amount of time
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: investigating Gaysey and surveilling him, and through this they discovered
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: a receipt that belonged to Robert Peaste. By finding this receipt,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: the police knew that Gaysey was lying.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: He had said that he had no.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Contact with the boy the day he went missing during
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: his initial investigation, and by locating this receipt, they knew
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Gaysey was guilty of more than he was letting onto.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: This discovery led the police to perform further searches of
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Gaysey's home, and when they did, they found the graveyard
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: beneath the floor. The cross space was packed with human remains,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: and when Gaysey was arrested for his crimes, he confessed
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: to the death so over thirty people. Gaysey faced his
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: trial on the sixth of February nineteen eighty. Seeing as
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: how he had confessed to the killings, all that was
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: left to decide was if he was legally insane, he
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: would be sent to a mental facility rather than a
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: jail cell.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Of this or the case.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: However, after a scathing prosecution called to attention the elaborate
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: steps he took to carry out and conceal the murders,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: he was found guilty and sane. It took only a
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: month for this historic trial to take place, but fourteen
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: long years of appeals would come afterwards. Gaysey was going
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: to receive the death penalty, and he would do everything
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: in his power to avoid it. He tried desperately to
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: escape his fate, but would be executed by lethal injection
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: on May tenth, nineteen ninety four. That was the end
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: of Gaysey's story. He pillaged the streets of Chicago for
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: six years, robbing families of their sons, and leaving behind
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: a trail of devastation that would haunt the city and
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: all of America for decades, even to now, almost.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Fifty years later.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: His twisted acts of violence went virtually unnoticed except by
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: those few who saw the signs hidden beneath the ven
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: ear of charm and mild mannered, Norse normal see. Gaysey's
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: disguise as a clown and a community man allowed him
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: to blend in his society's fabric, though he was cut
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: from a different and altogether more ghastly cloth. When the
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: truth had finally surfaced, it shattered any illusion of safety
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: for the innocence of Chicago, revealing a demon that had
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: lurked in plain sight, silently consuming the lives and souls
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: of innocent young men. Yet Gaysey wasn't the only killer
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: that had pillaged the streets of America's cities for teenage boys.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Another had already emerged by the time Gaysey was locked
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: away one who rivals his horrors in every way imaginable,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: and that brings us to the infamous Dean Coral, the
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Houston candy Man. The John Wayne Gacy story may seem
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: like a story so horrific that it had to be isolated.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: It might seem like a freak act of nature that
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: could only happened once, like a sickening nightmare that sticks
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: with you yet never plays out in your dreams ever again.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Yet sadly, Gaysey was not alone case, and for many
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: young men and boys in Houston, Texas, this nightmare would
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: be their last. It was the early nineteen seventies when
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: another killer would emerge, operating around the same time that
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Gaysey began his dark rampage. Dean Arnold Coral born on
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: Christmas Eve nineteen thirty nine in Fort Wayne, Indiana, was
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: yet another figure that most people found unimposing. Most people
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: don't know his name, even many who are interested in
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: the world of true crime. But even if his name
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: is less known, the name of his crimes breeze forever
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: etched into the history of Texas the Houston mass murders.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Coral is best known as the Candyman because before he
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: was known for his killings, he was known as a candymaker,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: But most interestingly about Dean Coral. If one of his accomplices,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Elmer Wayne Henley, hadn't spoken to the police, we likely
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: never would have heard of the man, nor his second accomplice,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: David Owen Brooks. Coral was a rather unknown figure, someone
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: who didn't stand apart from the crown. Unlike Gaysey, who
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: was well known in his community, someone who people knew,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Coral was a distant, ghostly character.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: So how did all this happen?
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: How did a candymaker become a cold blooded serial killer?
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Then how did he lure two young men into participating
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: in his crimes. Dean Coral had a difference childhood. His
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: parents were divorced, and though they would try to reconcile
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: some years into his life, they would remain separated. Like
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacy, Coral was a sickly child, one who
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: tended to be excluded from most activities due to a
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: heart murmur discovered in nineteen fifty. He was quite severe
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: and showed signs of behavioral problems. He had a sensitivity
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: to rejection that most would consider excessive, and this may
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: have been due to the fact that his mother was
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: an overbearing character. She was reportedly overprotective and controlling of Coral,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: which can heavily impact the social and emotional health of
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: a young child, but she never improved. Coral's mother remained
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: a commanding figure throughout his childhood and teenage years. As
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: his school years came to an end, Coral joined the
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: military for a ten month stint of service, but would
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: soon receive an honorable discharge in June of nineteen sixty
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: five and change his career path to something very unlikely.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Candy.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: His mother had started a candy making business, the Coral
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Candy Company, and her son showed.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Up to help her.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: He was considered to be kind by those he interacted
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: with at the candy shop, aiding a friendly reputation quickly,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: but it was all a facade. Coral would do something
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: with his position which would prove to be nothing if
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: not a sickening foreshadowing. You see, the Coral Candy Company
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: was located in Houston Heights, just across from an elementary school.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Should be noted, I actually live in the Heights in Houston.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that that was in the Heights before
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: researching for this. I know a lot of the murders
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: actually took place in this neighborhood, which is crazy.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: Side note, Sorry for.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: That random distraction. Coral would begin giving children free candy,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: earning him the gruesome nickname the candy Man. Coral would
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: use this tactic later on, offering his victims incentives to
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: follow him, such as free candy rides or jobs. Using
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: his mother's business. He would endear himself to the children
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: in their neighborhood, taking their trust and using it for
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: some of the most sickening and horrific crimes of person
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: can commit. In nineteen sixty seven, while working at the
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: candy company, Coral met the first of his two accomplices,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: beginning the dark streak of terror he would unleash on Texas.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: David Owen Brooks was only twelve years old when he
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: first met Coral, and sickeningly, the relationship quickly became. Brooks,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: like Dean Coral, came from a family broken by divorce.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: He was susceptible to manipulation the boy who wanted to
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: find a father figure. Dean Coral had lured David into
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: a friendship, offering the young boy free candy, but also
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: taking him on trips to Southern Texas to the beach.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Coral ingratiated himself to David over a period of time
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: and sadly convinced the boy to accept money in return
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: for being performed on him. Yet this, somehow was only
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: the beginning. Brooks would perform even more horrifying acts as
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: time went on, urged into monstrous behavior by the friendly
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: neighborhood candy shop owner. Coral wasn't satisfied with only one
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: young man to torment, though he needed more, many more.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: He offered Brooks great sums of money to bring him
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: more teen boys for him to Coral paid Brooks in
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: cash to bring him victims as well as bottom gifts.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: By that time, the Coral Candy company had failed to tread.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Water and had closed down.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: At that point, Coral had gotten a job as an
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: electrician to make ends meet, but he still had hundreds
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: in extra cash to pay Brooks for new victims, as
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: well as enough money to buy him a corvette. Naturally,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: people caught on that there was at least something strange
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: happening between Brooks and Coral. Only a teenaged boy, Brooks
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: was driving around Houston in a nice car, and perhaps
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: this is part of what lured in Coral's second accomplice,
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Elmerwaine Henley. Though Henley was likely intended to be a
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: victim at first, he was deemed useful by Dean Coral
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: and put to work bringing him more fodder for his
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: nightmarish machine. By nineteen seventy, Coral began to murder his victims,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: and boys began to go missing in Houston. As time continued,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: the disappearances piled one atop the other, and families began
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: asking questions. Young Men from all across Houston began to
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: vanish into thin air, even those young men who would
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: not be considered the time to run away. Elmerwayne and
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: David mostly targeted people they knew to supply Coral with victims,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: friends of theirs. One victim was even Henley's neighbor. No one, though,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: could imagine that these two boys were anything but kind friends.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: The parents of the victims said Henley was a polite,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: good natured boy. They can't be said what truly led
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Henley and Brooks to go along with Coral's rampage of horror.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Perhaps they were afraid for their own lives, maybe Coral
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: had something against them, but no one could believe that.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: These supposedly sweet.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: And compassionate boys would do such a thing recruit victims
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: for a serial killer children. All while friends and families
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: of victims were out searching for their lost loved ones,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: the accomplices were caring an attentive, with Henley even offering
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: to help distribute missing person posters. This horror show went
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: on for three years until the day Henley invited his
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: friends over to do at Coral's home in Pasadena, and
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: that brings us to the day of Dean Coral's death
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: and the revelation that would rock Texas to its core.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: For Henley, seventeen at the time, this was likely another
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: day in his work as a procurement agent for Coral,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: But for twenty year old Tim Curley and fifteen year
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: old Ronda Williams, who was the darkest.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Day of their lives.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Yet that day, something had been different, and Henley could
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: no longer participate in the of his friends. Perhaps it
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: was because Coral, now thirty three years old, was furious
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: that young Henley had brought a girl to the house
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: and had berated him profusely for it.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Coral had only.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Wanted Tim Curley, specifically pointing him out to Henley as
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: a target. But thankfully for Curly and all the other
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: young men that Coral may have killed going forward, Ronda
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: was there to snap Henley out of his madness.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Ronda had had.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: A fight with her father on that night, August seventh,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, a character that she was often at
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: odds with. Trying to help her, Henley had invited her,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: as well as Tim Curley, over to Dean Coral's Pasadena
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: home for a During the evening, the three passed out,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: falling asleep in Coral's apartment. When the three awoke, they
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: were all bound, even Elmer. Wayne Elmer watched as Coral
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: picked up Tim Curley as if he were weightless and
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: transported him into a sort of torture room. Inside. The
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: ground was covered with plastic. There were torture items in
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: there as well, a double sided glass rods, a gun,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: and a hunting knife. Curly wasn't the only one in
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: the room, however. Ronda Williams was woken out of her
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: sleep by Coral kicking her and calling her names, telling
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: her to get up and move. Once inside the room,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: the two were tied to something that would be dubbed
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: the torture board, a wooden board with handcuffs at each corner.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Henley was also still tied up, but wouldn't remain so
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: for long. He was actually able to convince Dean Coral
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: to untie him so that he could Ronda will Coral.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Curly.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Coral agreed and untied his accomplice, turning on Tim to
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: claim his victim, but Curly put up a considerable fight
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: to keep Dean Coral from harming him. The man soon
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: became frustrated and walked away, but Tim was not the
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: only life at stake that day. As Henley rounded on
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: his girlfriend, he saw the fear in her face, but
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: also something else, acceptance. Henley would later speak about the
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: fact that Ronda had asked him if he was going
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: to go through with this, if he was going to
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: allow this to happen. Henley said he could tell that
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: whatever he answered with either yes or no, Ronda had
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: accepted her fate. Something about the way she spoke to
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: him forced him to realize what he was about to do,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: and instead of letting both of his friends die terrible
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: deaths at the hands of a torturous maniac, Henley retrieved
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: a nearby twenty two pistol and told Dean Coral that
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: things had gone far enough. Tim Curley, still traumatized by
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: the events of that day so many years later, recalled
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: seeing Dean Coral transform somehow as Henley pointed the gun
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: at him. He said that he witnessed Dean change, almost
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: as if he physically morphed into another person. Curley said
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: that his body became larger and swelled up. He said
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: that the murderer's eyes went wide and that something took
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: him over. As Dean Coral raised his arms to rush
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: at Henley, shouting a challenge to kill him, Tim Curley
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: said he looked as if possessed by something demonic. Curly
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: believes Coral was never afraid that Henley would actually take
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: his life, but luckily for Tim and Ronda, Elmer finally
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: made the choice to fire and end this monster's rampage.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: He got into Coral's body, and the man tripped into
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: the hallway, slid down the wall, and crumpled to the floor,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: finally dead. Now that Dean Coral was dead, it was
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: time to come clean to the police. The teenager dropped
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: the gun and a few minutes later picked up the
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: phone to drop a bombshell on Pasadena, PD that would
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: set an entire city into a frenzy.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Of news and investigation.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: When the authorities arrived at the scene of the crime,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: they found Dean lying dead in the hallway, pierced by
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: six bullet wounds. Coral was strangely naked, but that wasn't
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: all that raised questions about the apartment. The torture board
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: and devices, and certainly the room covered with plastic caused
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: the heads of the police to spin. Thankfully, the police
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: had three witnesses waiting outside, ready for them to ask
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: their many questions. This day would be remembered as the
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: imputus for one of the most horrendous discoveries in Texas history,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: and only the first of many more frightening revelations. The
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: torture objects found in the apartment were the symptom of
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: a disease that had taken root deep in Houston, and
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: one of its carriers had just been slain, but two
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: more alert nearby that the police.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: Still knew nothing about.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: As the police spoke with Elmerwayne Henley, the boy admitted
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: to a gruesome fact he knew of several missing teenagers
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: that Coral had murdered and cold blood. Henley pointed them
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: to a nearby business, Southwest Boat Storage, where he claimed
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Coral had buried the victims. Following up on this shocking admission,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: the police began to search a shed that Coral had
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: rented since the year nineteen seventy. Inside the police found
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: two ten pound bags of garden lime, a shovel, and
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: a rake. But along with these innocuous items were far
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: more disturbing things literature sealed in an envelope and bags
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: full of the clothes of teenaged boys. The police also
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: saw a bit of disturbed soil beneath some carpeting inside
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: the shed, and this was the only clue they needed
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: to understand what was happening. An excavation of the area followed,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: and the site turned up no less than seventeen bodies.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: The tortured corpses of young men, all ranging from as
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: old as nineteen to as young as just thirteen years
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: of age. All of the young boys beneath the boat
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: shed had been reported missing over the last three years,
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: the same number of years that Coral had owned the shed.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: Because each of the boys had been a missing person's case,
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: they were dubbed the lost Boys. This sort of case
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: was on things th couble. Back in those days, no
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: one knew how to take this kind of violent crime
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: when the news broke across the city. You see, the
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: term serial killer hadn't even been coined yet. When the
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: bodies of the Lost Boys were dug up from the
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: mass graves, it was as if the world had turned
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: upside down. No one could understand how this had been
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: happening right underneath their noses. In our day, if thirty
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: young men went missing in a short period of time,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: it would immediately raise eyebrows and people would be on
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: a high alert from a mass killer. But back in
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: the seventies it was almost brushed away. Missing boys were
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: thought of as runaways by and large, a phenomenon that
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: had made Coral's work far too easy to carry out.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: But now that they had the bodies. Now that the
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Lost Boys were found, the police needed to figure out
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: how Wayne knew about them. Almerwayne Henley was vague when
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: he initially gave his explanations to the police, but eventually
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: he would crack and revealed that he had helped, as
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: well as Barry, at least six of Dean Coral's victims
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: after this admission, Moore came to light Henley knew not
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: just about the grave beneath the boat shed, but about
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: two more. A wooded area near Lake sam Rayburn turned
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: up four more dead bodies at a location where Coral's
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: family owned a cabin on the Boulevard Peninsula. Seven more
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: bodies were buried along a beach line. By the end,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: twenty eight bodies had been found, all males, all between
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: thirteen and twenty years of age. Every one of these
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: young boys had been in horrific ways before finally being
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Most of the victims had died via strangulation, but some
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: had been by twenty two, when their trial of misery
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: was finally over, the very same gun that Elmer Wayne
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Henley had used to put their killer to death. When
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Henley had been giving his confession, he implied that there
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: may have been a third accomplice, eighteen year old David
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Owned Brooks. Henley claimed that Brooks had introduced him to
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Coral two years prior, and so Brooks was brought in
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: for an interview. Brooks fessed up soon afterwards. Not only
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: did he find victims for Coral to but he also
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: participated in some of the killings. Throughout the confessions, detectives.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Concluded that the young men had lived with Dean.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Coral on and off for three years. Kral had paid
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: the young men to procure victims for him, and as
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: time progressed and the young men became further involved in
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: the crimes, they began to take part in the killings
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: and the disposal of bodies. After all this horror was revealed,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: people began to wonder, much like in the case of
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacy, how a man could manage to hide
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: such a streak of monstrous violence.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Perhaps the most.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Disturbing portion of this case is that Dean Coral may
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: not have only twenty eight young men and boys Henry
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: and Brooks led police to the burial sites they knew of,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Yet those may not have been the only ones. No
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: one to this day knows how many young men were
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: killed by Dean Coral, and it's a question that haunts
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: the minds of many locals here in Houston, and will
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: continue to do so forever. Those are answers that will
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: just never receive. Henley and Brooks have caught to the crimes,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: have told investigators many times over the years everything they know,
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: and yet Dean Coral himself is dead. And what's interesting,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: this is a little side note on not a fun fact,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: but just an interesting fact. Dean Coral is one of
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: the only serial killers in a marriage Erica that is
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: not buried in a prison cemetery, whose body was not
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: destroyed and turned to ash. He's actually buried in a
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: normal cemetery here in Houston. I've actually been.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: To his grave.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: It just blends in with every other tombstone at the cemetery.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: And that's because he was never convicted of a crime.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: He was never arrested, he was never put into prison.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: So his body was released to his family.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: They at a funeral and then he was buried. And
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: there he is to this day, literally just out at
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: a cemetery in Houston, in the middle of a beautiful cemetery.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: So we don't know exactly how many young boys Dean Coral,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: but that's where investigators come in. That's where people begin
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: to notice signs that peek out from the obscurity of
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: these cases. There are small ties, little windows that reveal
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: a larger picture not readily apparent. There was one man,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: one head operator that may have been involved with not
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: just Dean Coral's operation, but John Wayne Gacy's as well.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: He is, of course, John David Norman, the serial the
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: man behind such disgusting operations as the Delta Project, the
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: Norman Foundation, the Odyssey Foundation, and more. John David Norman
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: was most infamous for the mail order that he ran,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: largely from his apartments, but also most shockingly, from inside
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: of a prison itself. Norman was, of course, like we
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: mentioned in the last episode, linked to many members of
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: the higher levels of the US government, and evidence from
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: his cases was destroyed as if he was being protected
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: by someone incredibly powerful. He's been linked to the Franklin
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Credit Union scandal, mass government corruption, the Finders, and many
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: many more cases. But for now we're going to focus
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: on how he was connected to two of the most
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: infamous serial killers in American history. Now, the stories that
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: I told you, those are the official stories. Dean Coral
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: acted alone. John Wayne Gacy acted alone.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Keep in mind in.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: The official stories, there's no mention of the production of
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: CSAM materials, there's no mention of there's no mention of
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: accomplices helping. Besides to with Dean Coral, Umrawain Henley, and
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: David Brooks, they helped him. But with Gaycy, there's never
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: a mention of an actual accomplice, like killing, like participating
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: in everything. But this is where both of the stories
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: begin to fall apart, because you have to imagine with
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: a lot of these serial killer stories, the way I
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: look at it is like Son of Sam. Son of
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: Sam is in the nineteen seventies in New York City.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: There's an absolute lunatic in the press, running around the
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: city in the head, committing random acts of violence and bloodshed.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: The police need to find this guy as soon as possible.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: They need to arrest him, and they need to calm
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: the public because businesses are being affected, Tourism is being affected,
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: nobody feels safe housing, markets go down.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: Things that go into all this. So with Son of Sam,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: when they arrested Burkwitz, boom, this guy's son of Sam.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: But when you look at the actual case years later,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: you realize he was a part of the Sons of Sam.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: But there was like thirteen Sons of Sam, and they
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: were all participating in these murders and filming them and
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: making and selling this, and they were connected to these
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: cults and these groups and these wealthy people same with
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: this case, the Houston mass murders, Dean Coral, the candy man. Boom,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: that is your serial killer. That's it, sign off on it.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: We're done.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacy, these boys are found in his house.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Boom, that's it. We're done.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Clearly, these two were the only ones that were driving
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: these these things, and the only reason they did these
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: things was because they were addicted to murder.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: But it's just not the case.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: There's too much here to ignore. And when you introduced
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: John David Norman and the then the CSAM and the
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: four tons of CSAM materials uncovered in Houston, and Coral's
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: connections to these other folks, and Norman's connections to these folks,
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: and Gaysey's connections to Norman. Gasey even name dropped John
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: David Norman at one point. Bet you didn't know that.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: After this episode, you're gonna see these were not strictly
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: mass murder spreeze because the killer just wanted to kill
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: a bunch of young boys. There was financial interest driving
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of this. There was a profitable underground business
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: driving a lot of this stuff. And the deaths of
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: these children and the rest of these children were being
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: monetized and sold to dozens hundreds of thousands of people
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: across the world. But first it's analyzed John David Norman's
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: ties to Dean Coral where it all begins. For the
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: connection between Norman and Coral are psychological profiles. In the
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: book I Have the Chickenhawk by Simon Dovey, the author
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: calls to attention the use of psychological profiles to identify
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: the members of Dean Coral's killing crew. The first sign
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: that there was more than one man's psychological profile behind
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: these gruesome acts is the confession statements given by Wayne
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: and David the day after Dean Coral died. At the time,
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: both teenagers stated, completely independently from one another, that Dean
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Coral himself had told them he was a part of
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: a Dallas based organization that bought and sold boys and
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: young men. But more chilling, they both told the authorities
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: that members of this Dallas based organization were the young
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: boys that they purchased. The August ninth confession given by
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Elmer Wayne states that David Brooks introduced him to Dean
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: Coral after Elmer Wayne Henley said he needed money. His
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: exact statement is as follows, quote, and he took me
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: to Dean Coral. Dean told me that he belonged to
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: an organization out of Dallas that bought and sold boys,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: ran and stuff like that. Dean told me that he
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: would pay me two hundred dollars at least for every
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: boy that I could bring, and maybe more if they
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: were real good looking boys. I've come within an inch
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: of killing him, Coral, but I just never got up
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: enough nerve to do it until yesterday, because Dean had
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: told me that his organization would get me if I
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: ever did anything to him. And here's where we see
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: how Henley and Brooks, despite knowing the horrific things they
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: were doing, were kept under Coral's thumb. It could be
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: a lie to give them some sense of sympathy, being
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: young men who were caught up in a bad deal
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: that could take their lives, or Coral truly could have
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: belonged to some dark cabal that peddled and obviously underaged
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: boys to shadowy buyers across the country who had in
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: their hearts the intent. The same day that Elmerwayne Henley
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: gave his confession, David Brooks independently parroted him with his
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: confession stating quote. During one of our conversations, Dean mentioned
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: that there was a group of people in Dallas which
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: had similar activities to his. He mentioned a man by
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: the name of Art, who he said had also some
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: boys in Dallas. One day, while I was at his house,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: I picked up a piece of paper with the name
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Art on it and all of the phone number, but
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: the last number in the area code was two one four.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: Dean also mentioned Art as a wife. Lately, Dean had
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: been wanting to go to Dallas, and I believe was
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: supposed to go at the end of this month. The
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: two boys corroborated each other's accounts despite being at separate
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: police stations, making their statements only about an hour apart.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Two different teams of detectives interviewed them as well, making
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: their statements only all the more credible. Henley had been
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: in the custody of Pasadena police since the morning of
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: the eighth, but Brooks was not in custody until after
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: he received word of Coral's death on the morning of
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: August ninth. The boys had little chance to communicate, and
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: so their mutually corroborating statements were considered as evidence. But
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: there was more than just these two boys who said
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: they knew of a Dallas operation that sold young boys.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Ronda Williams, the fifteen year old girlfriend of Elmer Wayne
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Henley and the girl who almost lost her life on
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: the day of Coral's death, was recorded stating the following
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: to investigators, as written in a Houston p D Supplementary
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: Offense report. Quote, Wayne has told Ronda that he had
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: been to Dallas several times with Dean and that a
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: warehouse was in Dallas where she could make fifteen hundred
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: dollars a week doing something illegal, but Wayne reportedly had
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: never told her what it was.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: Quote.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: So now there are three accounts linking Dean Coral to
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: an operation in Dallas that bought and sold boys in
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: young men, and it makes you wonder who else at
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: that time was running such an operation. Well, it was
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: none other then, as we talked about in last week's episode,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: John David Norman, the head of the Odyssey Foundation, which
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: was finally discovered in nineteen seventy three. On August fourteenth
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: of that year, only days after Dean Coral was by
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: his accomplice. On the eleventh of August, detectives in Pasadena
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: began to report that they would be checking with local
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: postal authorities to identify and investigate a private postal box
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: registered to Dean Coral in Houston. David Brooks had told
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: police that Coral had used this postal box to receive materials,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: but he also said that Coral was very secretive about
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: his mail, reading the items he received, but then immediately
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: destroying them, ensuring that no one else could ever see
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: what was inside. It was the thirteenth of August when
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Dallas detectives were contacted by their friends in Pasadena that
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: neighborhood in Houston, reporting a possible connection between the murders
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: in their area and some that may be occurring in Dallas.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: And then the day afterwards, the fourteenth came. This was
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: the day that Dallas PD received a call from an
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: anonymous informant that there was a mail order boy being
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: run by a man in his apartment. When police acted
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: on this tip, us to John David Norman, a forty
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: five year old man living at the address. When he
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: was found, he was in the company of five teenaged
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: boys and his apartment was filled to the brim with
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: photographic equipment, publishing, stationery, files, literature, and it was enough
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: to fill an entire van, and all of it belonged
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: to John David Norman's The Odyssey Foundation. When the files
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: were seized, police noted thousands of index cards labeled with
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: the contact information of quote clients around the country, some
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: of them prominent people and some federal employees in Washington
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: end Quote.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: This was all.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Forwarded through a Post office box registered in San Diego
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: to the Norman Foundation and something called Epic International. This
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Odyssey Foundation had been some alleged non profit mentorship for boys,
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: pairing them with adult sponsors around the country. In reality,
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: it was a service that sold young boys into sold
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: boys too. Organized and operated by John David Norman himself,
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: this operation had spanned across the country and a massive
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: network tens of thousands of customers had accumulated over the years.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: As stated in our last episode, the index cards that
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: were recovered by the police in John David Norman's apartment
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: that listed the customers and contacts who were using John
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: David Norman's were supposedly to have been investigated, and yet,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: luckily for some of the federal employees that were allegedly
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: listed on the cards, instead of being investigated, instead of
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: noting who was within these cards found at the crime scene,
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: they were sent to the State Department, the United States
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: State Department, and they were then destroyed. It was thought
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: that perhaps Dean Coral was more than just a loan operator,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: that he was an acquirer or a customer of John
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: David Norman's disgusting boy selling business, or perhaps he was
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: their disposal expert. As stated in the last episode, there
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: were files found in John David Norman's apartment that were
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: strikingly even more concerning, which is saying a lot considering
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: how horrifying much of the literature in the apartment proved
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: to be. Some of the fi Norman's den of evil
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: were photographs listing descriptions of available boys that could pay
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: to rent, and four of those photographs had been labeled
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: with a single chilling word kill. Allegedly, these were located
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: by twenty one year old Charles Brysen Dyne, who, when
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: he found the cards, reported their ominous existence to the
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: police and began the events which led to the raid.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: This is only days after Dean Coral's mass graves were discovered.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: Bryson Dyne had heard about the murders in Houston and
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: became convinced that the Odyssey Foundation, run by John David Norman,
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: had something to do with it. Given the connections between
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: Coral and Norman, he may not have been wrong. A
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: concerning number of ties can be made between the two cases,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: mostly through witness statements, but these connections between the Houston
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: murders and the Odyssey network were never substantiated by authorities.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: They were never actually investigated by the police or detectives
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: or anybody, only alluded to in the press. Of course,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: this all raises eyebrows, but the index cards being destroyed
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: raises more. As stated in our last episode, these thousands
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: of cards were retrieved from Norman's apartment, then sent to
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger's State Department for investigation, and were subsequently destroyed.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: The State Department was allegedly not concerned about them being
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: related to a mass and potentially they'd been looking for
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: passport fraud cases in the cards and finding no evidence
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: of this, the cards were destroyed, and this was no
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: small amount of evidence. There were at least at minimum
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: thirty thousand names and addresses around the United States listed
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: out clearly for the police on those cards, and even
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: more disturbingly, some of those were identified by press as
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: being federal employees. As we know from the John David
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Norman episode previous to this, these employees were conveniently never
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: investigated for their potential involvement in Norman's schemes, and after
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: a while, all these findings were swept under the runk.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Those cards were destroyed. There's no surviving information from those cards.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: It's still completely unexplained as to why they chose to
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: destroy them and not just keep them in evidence. Why
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: they never looked into this, especially when you have the
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: bodies of boys being discovered in the same state days
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: before these cards are found. Weird, right, But there's so
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: much more that connects Coral to Norman. A few weeks
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: into the Houston murders investigation, Houston detectives received a letter
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: from a Californian named Stephen Dale Ahearn, postmarked August twenty fourth,
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three. Checking with the LAPDCI division, they learned
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: that this Stephen Ahern was quote a member of the
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: Nazi Party and writes letters and some of the information
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: he comes up with is good.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: End.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: Quote Ahearn was, supposedly, according to his own admission, a
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: former mill film model in nineteen seventy one. The man
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: had responded to a magazine advertisement and got a paid
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: offer to travel to Houston for an adult film shoot.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: A man named Roy Ames had photographed him there, and
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: Ahern stated that Roy Ames operated a large production company
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: that created CSM materials and young boys and local children.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: Ahearn said that some of Houston's victims had been in
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: Ames's photography catalog, and that he had personally seen one
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: of the victims of the Houston mass murders in a
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: magazine that Ames had published and circulated throughout California. So
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: you have a guy actually saying he saw some of
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: Dean Coral's victims in the images and videos. He had
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: seen them with his own eyes, the victims in these
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: CSAM materials, and even more chillingly, Stephen Ahern claimed that
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: Roy Ames knew Dean Coral and had used Dean Coral
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: to young boys. When detectives reached out to Ahearn, they
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: learned that he had actually met Dean Karrel in person
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: through Roy Ames while he was in Houston. Afterwards, he
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: was invited to a sado masochistic that was set to
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: take place at an apartment rented by Dean Coral. In
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, Ahearn stated that this roy Ames was
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: one of the country's largest producers of CSAM materials, responsible
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: for no less than a third of the photos in
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: films depicting the circulating in the United States at the time.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: He backed this up by providing a list of magazines
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: published by roy Ames in Houston that were being circulated
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: throughout California. LAPD Vice detectives were contacted in the later
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: part of August nineteen seventy three with the hope that
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: they could obtain copies of these publications and see if
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: any of Coral's victims could be identified within them. One
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: magazine called hot Rod's Number three that was found actually
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: contained a picture that may have depicted Dean Coral's fifteen
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: year old victim, William Lawrence. The photo was subsequently shown
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: to the boy's father, who denied that the boy in
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: the photograph was his son, though detective's note in the
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: reports that they believed there was a good possibility he
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: was and the father was incorrect or possibly didn't want
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: to believe it. The magazines were traced to an address
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: in Houston used by the record label Clarity music, and
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: this record label was owned and operated by a local
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: producer named Roy Ames. One week after LAPD Vice was
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: contacted to aid in this investigation, a Hollywood based or
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: was arrested, a man named Guy Straight. On September one,
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, Guy Strait was brought in on charges
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: of using underaged boys in his and some of these
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: boys were documented to have been from Texas. The police
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: at the time reported that they were quote checking with
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: Texas authorities in Dallas and Houston to find out whether
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: there is any connection with an alleged ring in Texas
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: which supplied hundreds of teenage boys as for older men
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: across the country end quote now. This producer from Los Angeles,
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: known as Guy Straight, ran something called Dom Studios, a
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: disgusting business that peddled CSAM materials, and he had launched
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: a joint venture with a man named William Byers.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: Junior.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: Buyers owned a company called Lyric Productions, and together Guy
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: Straight and Buyers Junior operated an enormous CSAM venture through
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: a company called Dom Lyric Productions. Guy Strait's arrest led
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: to that of his business partners, as well as well
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: as thirteen more arrests later that year in October of
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: seventy three.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: This was one of the biggest the.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: Operations in the country, and it had been going on
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: right under everyone's noses, circulated through the mail. One newspaper
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: article also indicates that the children used were sent from Houston, saying,
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: quote the film sold for fifty dollars each and the
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: magazines for five and ten dollars. Many of the alleged
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: hardcore films were produced by Lyric Film Productions, reportedly owned
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: by Buyers. A Houston, Texas photographer, William Johnson, worked for
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Buyers and was also named in the indictment. Grodin was
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: quick to say there had been no link discovered between
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: the alleged Los Angeles crimes and the mass homosexual murders
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: in Houston uncovered August eighth. He said Johnson and Buyers
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: may have transported some of their actors from the Houston
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: area to California for the films end quote. Naturally, people
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: involved with Norman's Odyssey Foundation, already connected to the Houston murders,
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have wanted more of their connections blown wide open.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: It would have been only further damaging for the federal
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: employees named on Norman's index cards, and so the connection
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: was quickly denied to exist, trying to ensure that no
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: more lines could be drawn between Dean Coral's killings and
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: massive nationwide. But there was a connection between Buyers and
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: straight to John David Norman and therefore to Dean Coral's
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: killing spree. You see, William Byers Junior was from Houston,
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: was an heir to the Humble oil fortune in Texas,
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: where his father was a famed oilman. Being such a
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: prominent businessman, he had many friends in high places. One
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: of these was j Edgar Hoover himself at the time
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: the head of the FBI, and William Byers Junior knew
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: j Edgar Hoover personally through his father. So now not
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: only are government employees linked to this through John David
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: Norman's index cards, but you have j Edgar Hoover, the
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for almost fifty
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: years until he died in nineteen seventy two, who was
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: a personal, very good friend of a producer. In the
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: book Official and Confident Show by Anthony Summers, the author
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: alleges that Byer's junior was more than a friend to Hoover,
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: though he puts forth a harrowing accusation that Byers Junior
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: supplied JEdgar Hoover with underaged boys that had been used
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: in his photography shoots, and these would occur during visits
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: that Jay Edgar Hoover himself personally made, which are documented
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: to have happened to Buyer's Junior's personal residents. Of course,
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: most people would be outraged at such an accusation, but
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: if John David Norman had contacts in the Upper Government,
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: why not Buyer's Junior. In fact, it's actually documented that
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: JEdgar Hoover was so close to Byer's junior that he
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: attended one of Byer's junior's birthday parties. They wrote about
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: it in the newspaper. They were documented to be extremely
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: close friends, and as we've talked about in another episode
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: of the show, in the Chicken and the Bulls episode,
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: JEdgar Hoover is the guy credited with essentially inventing blackmail
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: using underaged children, which took place at the Plaza Hotel
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: in New York City, where they would basically honty trap
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: powerful people with underaged boys and film and photographed them
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: to use that as blackmail, and he came up with
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: this scheme with Roy Kohne, and that's just a whole
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: nother rabbit hole. So Hoover was an extremely dirty guy
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: and I have no no reservations about believing this. It
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: was April of nineteen seventy four, only a few months
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: after Buyers Junior and William Johnston were arrested that they
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: skipped their bail and fled overseas to Europe. Guy Straight
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: fled from California, but he was picked up later on
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: in Phoenix, Arizona, in nineteen seventy six for having Straight
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: started to talk in prison in nineteen seventy seven, he
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: told a reporter that he had known John David Norman.
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: Then later on, during a congressional inquiry looking into he
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: stated that he knew it named Roy Ames, who was
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: based in Houston. When Ames was later arrested, he told
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: officers that quote, while Guy Straight had worked with him,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: Straight was small time by Ames's standards, and that his
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: own material was distributed worldwide. End quote. And Roy Ames himself,
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: the man who allegedly ran that massive CP ring in Houston,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: was directly connected to the Houston mass murders. When the
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: seventeen bodies were discovered beneath the boat shed, two ID
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: cards were located on the corpses. They belonged to thirteen
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: year old Jerry Waldrop and fifteen year old Donald Waldrop,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: and they were located in the area of the boatshed
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: marked gravesite number five. They were the first victims to
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: be identified because of their IDs being buried on their persons.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: Also buried with Donald Waldrop was a partial police report,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: and though this report was taken in as evidence and filed,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: it isn't known what became of it.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: When the father of.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: The two boys learned of the discovery of their bodies
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: and confirmed that it was his two sons that had
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: been killed, he gave the police the names of the
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: men his sons had been with at the time of
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: their disappearance. One of these two was a man named
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: Bill Walls. The other one was a man named Roy Ames.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: This same information had been written in a police report
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one, with the father having stated that
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: Ames quote gathers kids and takes movies end quote.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: So why was this ignored?
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: This it seemed to be crucial evidence of a dark
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: and disturbing operation, and yet the police failed to ever
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: follow up on this information. Therefore, roy Ames was first
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: mentioned two years ago in nineteen seventy one, when two
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: of Kral's victims first disappeared. These are the only two
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: bodies on which ID cards were found, and once they
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: were found, the father repeated the name roy Ames, having
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: remembered it as this was the last person that his
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: children were seen with years earlier before they disappeared.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't long before roy.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: Ames was mentioned yet again, this time by the California
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: informant that claimed that roy Ames had used Dean coral
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: to children. On December twenty second, nineteen seventy three, police
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: in Houston received yet another crucial tip. A parole named
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: Richard Van Payne claimed that he had seen photographs of
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: the dead boys from the Houston mass murders stored away
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: in a Houston warehouse. Then, sometime during that exact same month,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: US Postal inspector rated a warehouse that roy Ames himself
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: owned in Houston.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: And this is one of the.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: Most shocking facts that I've ever read in my entire life,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: and I'm glad we finally get to talk about it
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: here On this show. They found this in the warehouse
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: in Houston were four tons of CSM materials, four tons
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: of printed material depicting children being sit with that for
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: a second, let that sink in four tons of CSAM.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: They also found a letter between roy Ames and a
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: man named Roger D. Smith about selling hardcore. These films
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: that they considered hardcore and talked about in this letter
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: depicted children and one of the chilling statements about the
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: films that Smith made in the letter was that quote
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: it would have been better if the producers had tossed
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: in a end quote. That's a direct quote from the letter.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: Then in nineteen seventy five, another warehouse belonging to roy
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: Ames was rated and inside of it were two more
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: tons of CSAM materials. Two tons, so you got six
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: tons of Think of how much a ton is one
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: thousand pounds, six thousand pounds of printed CSAM. And the
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: most shocking of all, during that second rate on the
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: second warehouse, amongst all of that printed CSAM, it is
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: recorded that the Houston Police Department identified the faces of
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: eleven of Dean Coral's victims. They stated at the time
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: that they had personally observed and seen eleven of Dean
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: Coral's victims in these cp CSAM photos and videos in
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: roy Ames's warehouse. Once again, let that set in for
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: a second. They saw eleven of Dean Coral's victims in
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: this CSAM stash. David Brooks, Coral's assistant, seemed to have
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: known about this operation. During his first confession in August
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy three, Brooks said that quote, the first
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: few Deans were supposed to have been sent off somewhere
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: in California end quote. The jury that indicted Brooks apparently
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: was very upset with Houston PD because when Brooks had
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: brought this information forward, they failed to investigate the extremely
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: obvious lead. In their report, they stated the following quote,
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: the Houston Police abandoned the investigation about September one, leaving
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: unexplored the possible involvement of others and related criminal activities
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: end quote. September one, of course, was the day that
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: Guy Strait was arrested in California. The investigation into dom
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: Lyric Productions had followed the joint venture run with Buyers Junior,
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: and now with that linked back to Roy Ames in Houston,
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: who's being linked to Dean Coral. Ames had reported that
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: those two in California were small time operators. So Ames
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: got life in prison right six thousand tons of CSM
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: materials of hundreds of thousands of children. He spent the
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: rest of his life in prison right No received a
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: ten year sentence after that was found in his warehouse.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: In fact, Roy Ames didn't even serve his full ten
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: year sentence, as he was arrested again in nineteen eighty
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: one in Boston for attempting to sell twenty five Master
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: copies to undercover customs officers for twenty thousand dollars. So
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: he didn't even serve a full six years of that
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: ten year sentence, and then he got out, and it
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: seems like immediately tried to do all of this again.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: This mass production and distribution network, already connected to Dean Coral,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: stands side by side and existed at the same time
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: as John David Norman's Dallas honesty network. Both Elmer Wayne
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: Henley and David Brooks, Coral's accomplices, claimed to have worked
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: for an organization in Dallas that bought and sold boys.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: John David Norman's Dallas apartment had four photographs of missing
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: boys inside stamped with the word kill, as well as
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: many index cards with government workers' names. It seems very
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: convenient for these members of the government, But the evidence
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: from the apartment was taken into destroyd never fully researched
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: or looked into. John David Norman, Roy Ames, Guy Strait,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: Dean Coral. They are all documented on paper. It's like
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: a massive spiderweb, and yet John David Norman continued to
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: operate unimpeded by authorities for the better part of the
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: seventies and the eighties. Yet it seems less like a
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: coincidence when it's revealed that two different boys set to
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: testify against John David Norman in different cases were both
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: murdered before they could talk. But there's much more to
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: John David Norman's connections. Dean Coral and his apparent partner,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: Roy Ames are only one side of the story. The
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: next truth is just as harrowing. The suspect in the
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: murders of John David Norman's witnesses was none other than
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: one of his employees, someone who lived with him and
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: also worked for the only other serial killer in the seventies,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: whom and buried his victims in a mass grave. This suspect,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: just before his execution, would publicly claim that John David
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: Norman was involved in making and had been tied into
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: his whole operation. And this was none other than the
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: killer clown himself, John Wayne Gasey. One of John David
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: Norman's closest associates was Philip Paski, the man who helped
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: him run the Odyssey Foundation's new rebranding. You see, remember
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: we talked about this last time. John David Norman. After
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: being arrested and released in Texas, some phantom paid his bond,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: an extremely high two hundred thousand dollars plus in today's
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: money bond, and Norman fled the state. He then went
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: to Illinois in nineteen seventy three and began the Delta Project,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: which was practically the same organization it had been while
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: he had been operating in Dallas. John David Norman, as
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: stated in the previous episode, had been arrested for this
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: project in November of nineteen seventy three, and while in
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: prison on charges of and producing CSAM materials, he met
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: a man named Philip Pasky. Philip Pasky would begin to
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: help John David Norman run the Delta project later on,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: and at around the same time John Wayne Gacy had
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: begun to commit his first murders in the immediate area.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: Paski even ran John David Norman's project for a while
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: while Norman was in prison. But of course, Norman's charges
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: from Dallas were inexplicably dismissed and as bail was reduced,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: which allowed him to go free in nineteen seventy six,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: the time period during which John Wayne Gacy's murders began
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: full force. This was the same year that Philip Pasky
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: began to help with John David Norman's Delta project, as
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: Norman was arrested again in nineteen seventy six. You see,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: Norman had been arrested in Illinois in November of nineteen
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: seventy three after a young boy named Kenneth Helstrom had
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: turned him into the police for the police quickly learned
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: that the alias John David Norman was using Stephen Gerwell
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: was a fake identity, and that Norman had been wanted
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: in Texas. He was released after his charges were dismissed
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: and bail was posted by an anonymous benefactor, but he
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: would still face the charges brought against him by Kenneth Helstrom.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: Helstrom testified against Norman, and he received a four year
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: sentence with twenty three months of time served. Only a
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: month later, Kenneth Helstrom turned up viciously and brutally. He
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: was started on his way home from work, and with
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: Norman in prison, Philip Pasky, John David Norman's good friend,
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: became the prime suspect. In nineteen seventy seven, in May,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: a judge ordered Norman's release out of the blue, who
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: else would he move in with except Philip Pasky, And
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: after prison, the two of them settled in a basement
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: apartment on West Redwood Avenue in Chicago. This happened to
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: be only twenty minutes away from where John Wayne Gacy's
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: home was, where all of his victims, all young men
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: and boys, would be dug up from his crawl space.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: Philip Pasky and John David Norman then set up shop
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: in the basement apartment, recruiting local boys to shoot CSAM
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: and CP with and also most likely to given what
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: kind of sick businesses Norman ran. The apartment was raided
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight after Michael Salcido reported John David
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: Norman to the police as Norman had him once again,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: John David Norman's clientele list, all those index cards which
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: had mysteriously appeared again in his life were seized by
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: the authorities and Norman was again put behind prison walls,
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: but this time Philip Paski, his friend, was on the
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: outside to help run the organizations of Norman's while he
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: was indisposed. However, Michael Salcedo would not get off scott
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: free for turning in the leader of one of America's
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: largest In February of seventy nine, Salcito was found dead.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: Salcito was set to testify once again against John David
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: Norman at an upcoming trial, and his damning evidence would
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: prove difficult to climb out of. Salcito was found in
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: a car with his He became the second victim of
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: John David Norman's to be killed immediately before he could
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: testify against him. Others would be charged for the murders
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: of these two victims, with Philip Pasky escaping even though
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: he had been the prime suspect in both killings. But
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: this wouldn't be the end of the story for him.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: Years after Kenneth Helstrom's death, his sister checked out a
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: book in the library about John Wayne Gacy. Inside she
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: saw notes that someone had written about a connection between
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: Gacy and a man named John David Norman. Apparently, Gasey
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: had been interviewed in nineteen ninety about Norman's connection to
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: Kenneth Helstrom's murder. Two years later, the case was still
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: cold and about to be transferred to Cook County PD.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: But before it could happen, police and home Wood performed
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: a traffic stop on a man named Fred Rogers, an
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: old classmate of Hellstrums. He had apparently been a suspect
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: all along, but had never been questioned because he had
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: left Chicago. Strangely, Rogers immediately confessed to the murder of
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: his classmate, thirty years after the murder had been committed,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: and he was arrested. Case finally supposedly solved. Apparently, Rogers
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: had Hellstrum because he had made was on him while
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: the two shared a joint of marijuana, and this had
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: inflamed Rogers's rage to the point that he his classmate
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: to death. So Philip Paskey was off the hook for
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: his death, even though he had more motive and more
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: timing than Rogers ever had. Yet, what does this have
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: to do with Norman and Gaysey. Well, Philip Pasky lost
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: his job at the local public swimming pool, having been
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: the children's supervisor in nineteen seventy eight. Records show that
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: he went on to work for someone else, the very
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: man who would soon be arrested for his own crimes
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: of murder. In fact, Philip Paski, John David Norman's best
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: friend and the guy who helped him run the would
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: begin working for John Wayne Gacy's construction company PDM Contractors.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: He seats for three pace slips were found made out
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: to Philip Paski, dated nine twelve, nineteen seventy eight, nine nineteen,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight, and nine twenty five, nineteen seventy eight.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: Gaysey would corroborate that Pasky had worked for him years
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: earlier in the nineteen nineties, just before his execution, and
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: he stated that he knew Philip Paski personally and very well.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: He stated that Paski had worked for him and frequented
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: his home in the months before Gaysey's arrest. While Gaysey
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: had spent the last months of his life fighting for appeals.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: He also talked to the press frequently. He wanted to
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: prolong his life by releasing new information about accomplices and
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: trying to get new information reviewed that could get his
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: case reexamined. According to a series of TV interviews with
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: multiple outlets, Gasey talked about the police looking into four
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: of his accomplices. In nineteen seventy nine, the number of
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: reported accomplices the police had looked into was three, but
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: the names were Mike Rossi and David Kram, a pair
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: of teenagers who had lived with Gaysey at some point
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: in time during his active killing years, and both of
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: these young men claimed to work for a crime organization.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: Gasey had stated in interviews that he had not carried
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: these crimes out alone. Multiple times, he stated that Michael
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: Rossi and David Kram were accomplices who had helped him
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: bury the bodies beneath his home. Gasey then claimed that
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: he had multiple personalities and confessed in third person to
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: the murders of three of his victims.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: The pair would later.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: Admit to digging the trenches, but denied ever knowing what
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: the trenches were four. According to Kram and Rossi's testimonies.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: Gaysey also claimed to work for a crime syndicate that
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: involved setting people up. That's a quote, according to a
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: February thirteenth, nineteen eighty story by The Daily Republican Register quote.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: Rossi and Kram testified Gaysey, despondent over a ten day
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: police surveillance in the disappearance of a des Plaine's youth,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: told them he had admitted to police he was involved
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: in the syndicate slayings of more than thirty youths. Cram
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: said in nineteen seventy six he found several wallets in
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: Gaysey's garage so called souvenirs of Gaisey's victims, and asked
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: Gaysey if he could use the identification cards to drink
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: in cars. He told me, I didn't want those, Cram testified.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: He said they were from some kind of deceased people.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: It had something to do with setting people up for
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: the crime.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: Syndicate end quote.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: Indeed, one of Gaysey's victims corroborated that Gaysey was not
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: alone during the night Gaiyseya, that is, Norwood Park home.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: Police had been looking at three other suspects in nineteen
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: seventy nine, with one of them being Michael Rossi, Gaysey's
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: employee himself. In fact, one of John Wayne Gasey's confirmed
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: victims was a nineteen year old named John Mowory, and
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: just a few days before John Mowory disappeared, he had
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: moved in with a new roommate. That roommate was John
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: Wayne Gaysey's employee, Michael Rossi. Two of Maori the victim's
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: friends had spoken with Michael Rossi about the disappearance at
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: the time, and according to these friends, Rossi said that
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: Maori the victim was gone for a few days and
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: asked if they could take his dog out for him. Moreover, Rossi,
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: Gaysey's employee, allegedly told these friends that he knew of
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: a place where dead bodies were buried during that same conversation.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: The third accomplice spoken of by Gaysey was Philip Pasky,
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: and then, by extension out of Gaysey's own mouth itself,
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: John David Norman. Gaysey stated that David Cram had introduced
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: him to Philip Pasky and stated that Philip Pasky was
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: a dangerous man and a person who procured boys from movies,
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: and allegedly, David Cram, Michael Rossi and Philip Paski, all
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: three employees of John Wayne Gacy's. All three of them
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: had keys to Gaysey's home and used them while Gaysey
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: was out of town. Gaysey wanted to pin the murders
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: on his accomplices rather than himself, and so he was
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: telling police and news outlets that while he was away,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: the men with the keys to his home were murdering
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: boys and burying them in his crawl space. Now, well,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: that's completely unbelievable, and we know that Gaysey did murder
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: some of his victims.
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: We know that for a fact.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: Some of his company records have survived over the years,
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: and they detailed Gaysey's documented travels and his patterns of travel,
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: and these documents do actually corroborate some of Gaysey's outlandish claims.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: For example, financial statements recovered from this archive of files
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: noted that some of Gaysey's victims did indeed disappear while
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: it was documented that Gaysey was not in the Chicago
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: area in just one of these cases. Actually, for example,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: Gaysey was documented to be in another state when one
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: of the victims went missing, and you know, eventually they
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: ended up in Gaysey's crawl space. So for that to
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: fit the official narrative, in the official story, it would
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: have had to have been Gaysey there in person to
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: this child and you know, caused them to go missing.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: Because remember, according to the official story, Gaysey acted completely alone,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: according to officials, with no help from anybody else. And
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: yet Gaysey, through plane tickets that are documented, is outside
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: of Illinois at the time, and a child that ends
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: up in his cross space goes missing while he's out
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: of the state. So make that make sense. That doesn't compute.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: Gaysey had a lot more to say, though. He was
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: insistent that he was not guilty of his many crimes
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: and claimed that it was these three young men who
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: had committed many of the murders. A one dollar ninety
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: nine cent a minute reverse charge telephone number was reported
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four, only a month before Gaysey's execution,
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: that played a recording of Gaysey proclaiming his innocence. According
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: to the Philadelphia Inquirer, who posted an article on the
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: phone line in nineteen ninety four, quote callers can hear
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: Gaysey proclaim his innocence in his high, intense voice, full
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: of outrage. In the messages, Gaysey suggests that the murders
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: were committed by his contracting employees who had keys to
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: his house. There were twelve keys out to the house,
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: he said. Gasey says the recorded message was taped without
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: his knowledge during phone conversation with an attorney end quote.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: According to a recovered tape that records part of the admission,
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: Gasey says, quote, well, aside from the twelve keys, we
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: already know that Rossi, kran Pasky and Norman were involved
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: in the case. And you know something, What's funny these
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: sons know it too. End quote, And apparently Gaysey was right.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: Attorney Stephen W. Becker compiled a report on Gaysey's court
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: files at the time and found that they did have
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: some knowledge of this connection back in nineteen seventy nine
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: and nineteen eighty. Becker writes as follows quote. John Wayne
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: Gacy was arrested on December twenty first, nineteen seventy nine,
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: just six months after Norman's latest arrest. Gaysey's trial was
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: conducted during the term of Cook County's state Attorney, Bernard Carey. Moreover,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: Philip Paskey was listed as a witness on the state's
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: discovery disclosures as well as a possible witness for the
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: defense end quote. It would be very hard to go
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: off of John Wayne Gasey's word alone. I mean, he's
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: a documented liar. But there are remarkable coincidences between Gaysey's
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: case and the case of Dean Coral which may indicate
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: that Gaysey and Coral both were only puppets for someone
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: else who was directing them on kind of what to
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: do and how to do it. Now, like I said before,
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: there's no denying that John Wayne Gacy, just like Dean Coral.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: Was guilty. He was guilty of.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: And of, but these similarities speak to a belief that
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: he was not alone mastermind. Here are some of the
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: bizarre similarities between the two cases. Dean Coral and John
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: Wayne Gacy both used a handcuff trick to incapacitate their victims,
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: then tied them most times to a torture board. And
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: I find that one to be extremely bizarre. Coral does
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: this handcuff trick. You know, he gets these boys to
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: put the handcuffs on and then boom, he is in
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: complete control over them. Same with Gaysey. This is documented,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: and they both had these torture boards that they would
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: tie these boys to at times. The coincidences, I mean
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: to me, it's not a quinn. Dean Coral had twenty
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: eight victims, but he's thought to have head around thirty
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: two to thirty four all young boys, and Gaysey had
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: thirty three of this same demographic, so they had almost
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: the exact same number of victims. Dean Coral and John
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: Wayne Gacy both buried their victims beneath buildings that they owned,
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: one a crawl space and one a boat shed. John
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: Wayne Gacy lived with two accomplices who claimed to work
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: for a crime organization, and so did Dean Coral. The
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: Dean Coral investigation led to a suspected link to John
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: David Norman's network, and so did John Wayne Gacy's. With
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: all these striking coincidences, it would seem that Gaycy and
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: Coral were somehow linked, and to implicate Norman even further,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: Two of Gasey's victims two of John Wayne Gaysey's victims
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: were last seen extremely close to John David Norman's home.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: But why would John David Norman have used these two men?
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: What would he have needed them for? One statement made
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: by John Wayne Gacy himself may hold the answer. When
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: Pasky and John David Norman as his accomplices in nineteen
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: ninety two. He was never clear about how they were involved.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: He was evasive about his connection to Norman, but he
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: did say that Pasky and Norman were involved in making
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: The following is what Gacy reported during an interview with
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: reporter Robert Rossler. Quote. Here we've got Philip Pasky, who
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: had a newsletter going out of Cook County jail. Here
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: he is involved with a guy named John David Norman,
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: and John Norman was running boys for hire. They were
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: making with young boys. To me, they were selling them
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: end quote. Gasey seems to suggest he never met John
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: David Norman in person, only learning about him through Philip Pasky. However,
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: it is certainly extremely coincidental that when Norman went to Dallas,
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: dead bodies of young men and boys turned up and
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: were blamed on a serial killer with two accomplices, and
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: the same thing, exact carbon copy, same thing happened soon
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: after he came to Chicago. Michael Rossi and David Cram
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: likely knew John David Norman if they were friends of
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: Philip Paskey's, but this was never looked into, as was
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: much of the rest of Norman's horrific case. To begin
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: to uncover this lead of one is to look at
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: the inventory list of Gaysey's home. Apparently, the inventory was
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: signed and received by the Cook County Courthouse before Gaysey's trial,
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: and it mentions an eight millimeter movie camera, other film
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: production equipment, and an editing deck, which is basically, you know,
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: equipment that they would use to edit films back then.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: There's also mention of the following item in an executive
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: desk drawer listed as follows quote drawer f confidential files,
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: list of payoff city inspector, political men, personal income tax files,
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: files on five bank accounts, checkbooks, credit card files, insurance files,
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: personal private list of known Homo politicians, sports figures, count
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: and city employees end quote. Gaysey's own lawyers noted these
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: household items, and Gaysey was well known to be active
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: in local politics. It could be that he was just
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: keeping a list of people who not only purchased CSAM materials,
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: but perhaps that Gaysey was producing for politicians and prominent
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: figures in Chicago. Gaysey, in fact, remember, had been a
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: Democratic precinct captain in Norwood Park, appointed by the Democratic
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: Party commissioner in that area. Robert Mattwick, who was also
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: coincidentally Cook County School Superintendent. Gasey, also served as secretary
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: and treasurer of the town's Lighting Commission, serving with Sam Amaranti,
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: the commission's legal counsel. Amirante would go on to represent
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: Gaysey at his trial, as well as file the household
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: items List. Gaysey was also pictured with many prominent people
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: over the years. He had wanted to hold an elected
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: office for a time and had hired photographer Marty Zelenski
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: to photograph him with other politicians at local events. He
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: was even posted in the newspapers shortly after his arrest
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: shaking hands with Mayor and Michael Blandik, and later on
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: the second photo appeared, one where John Wayne Gacy himself
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: was seen shaking hands with First Lady of the United
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: States Rosalind Carter. In the photo, Gaysey disturbingly bears a
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: very specific button pinned to his lapel Secret Service Special
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: Clearance button. But could these people have been buyings and
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: CSAM materials? When Gaysey was arrested. Marty Zelenski, the man
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: who had photographed Gaysey shaking hands with these politicians told
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: the Chicago Tribune that Gaysey had once asked him to
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: film illegal Gaysey told them that there was a lot
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: of money to be made in that industry, and who
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: else could he mean to sell it to but John
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: David Norman and Philip Pasky. After all, these two were
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: filming this exact material just only twenty minutes or so
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: away from his home, all up until nineteen seventy eight,
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: when Philip Paski himself went to go work for Gaysey
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: at PDM. Perhaps these are only coincidences, and Gaysey was
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: never in league with Norman at all. Yet there is
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: one more factor that draws of frightening conclusion. When looking
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: at timelines of Geaysey's victims disappearances, there's a remarkable correlation
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: between Gaysey's victims vanishing and periods when Norman was out
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: of prison and roaming the streets of Chicago. The official
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: list of deaths attributed to Gaycy's reign of terror is
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: thirty five, with only twenty eight having been identified to
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: this day. Yeah, a lot of people don't know that,
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: but there are still five victims of John Wayne Gacy
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: that have never been identified, and all of them vanished
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: between nineteen seventy two and nineteen seventy eight, the very
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: years that Norman was roaming the streets of Chicago. Only
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: seven of Gaysey's victims disappeared while Norman was incarcerated or
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: out of town, and a staggering twenty vanished while Norman
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: was free in Chicago with Philip Pasky. This is twice
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: the disappearances in less than half the time. And during
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: this period, John David Norman had been involved with his
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: Boy Lover newsletter dubbed Hermez. This is the publication that
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: John David Norman used to propagate and advertise mail order hardcore.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: This newsletter catered to predatory whose self identified by using
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: the word chickenhawk. In this case it meant a hawk
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: who went after chickens, and in this case chickens obviously
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: meant young boys. Vermez also sickeningly published advertisements for groups
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: that provided instructions and support for infiltrating organizations like the
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: Boy Scouts, Big Brother youth groups, and church affiliations, and
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: these advertisements also included guides on how to Ramaz was
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: printed and edited by associates of Norman based out of Chicago.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: It was supposedly receiving its funding from a Michigan based philanthropist.
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: Michigan based philanthropist. Who who could that be that we
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: know that has his own maybe island that he boys
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: to in films csam on. Oh yeah, Francis Duffield Sheldon.
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: Frank Sheldon was a member of the old money families
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: in Detroit, specifically Gross Points. And what island did Frank
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: Sheldon own in Lake Michigan?
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: Was North Fox Island, an island that was used as
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: a part of a national international obviously, we've talked about
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: this before. Exposed in nineteen seventy six. The North Fox
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: Island operation led to the exposure of many other interlinked
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: operations set under a much larger group across the United States,
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: and it included the publication of Chicago's or mess. It
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: also bled into yet another serial killer, this time in Michigan,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: named the Oakland County Child Killer. This investigation ended in
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight, one day after a key suspect was
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: found having allegedly unlived himself. The suspect had known Frank Sheldon,
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: whose own name would later turn up in the same
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: investigation in relation to eight millimeters, including an alleged that
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: featured one of the killer's victims an eight millimeter camera
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: much like the camera that was found in.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy's home. And we could go on and on.
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: And on about the connections here, and it should be
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: noted here David Cram himself in the year two thousand
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: and one headed out to a local wooded area in
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: the Chicago area, tied a rope to a tree, and
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: unlived himself in a in the middle of the woods.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: So you could make of that information what you will,
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: But this podcast would have been like six hours if
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: we went through every single detail, and it's still only
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: part two of three would which next week is going
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: to be part three. But I mean, it's all definitely
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: connected me. You go down the Frank Sheldon rabbit hole
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: and the John David Norman John David Norman and Frank
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: Sheldon were writing for him as at the same time
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: that were actually publishing articles. Frank Sheldon considered himself to
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: be more of a scholar when he came to this stuff,
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: and that's what we'll talk about this in future episodes
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: as well. Back then and even to this day, you
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: had these academic pederists that we're trying to use intellectual
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: terminology to propagate the idea that these man boy relationships
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: or man girl were okay. So it's like academia centered
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: on but viewing it through a positive lens and trying
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: to justify through the lens of academia. And there are
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: so many books in publications about pederisty, and there are
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: doctors that have dedicated studies, like there's one the Kentler
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: experiment in Germany where they actually they gave children too
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: to see what the benefits would be for the child
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: and for the dozens hundreds of children ended up getting
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: in those just because of this experiment that this doctor
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: wanted to conduct. It turns out he was a very
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: sick and twisted as well, which we could talk about
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: more later. But yeah, I mean, as you guys know,
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: I'm producing at this moment a documentary series about Frank
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: Sheldon and North Fox Island. I'm good friends with a
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: few victims of Sheldon's I have been to Amsterdam, to Germany,
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: to India, to Idaho and all throughout Michigan hunting down
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: the trail of Sheldon and the stuff that we have
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: learned and documented is. It's stuff no one's ever seen
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: and no one's ever heard. It's the crazy istion I've
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: ever been involved with in my life. But that's all
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: I can say about it right now, because we're still
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: we've produced four out of six episodes, so we're almost
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: at the end of the series, which will.
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: Be coming to you soon.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: But let's wrap this thing up because we've been here
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: a while and I'm sorry to take up so much
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: your time. So is it possible that John David Norman
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: was using two serial killers as body disposal experts, or
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: rather as the actors in his thesells would have been
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: distributed all across the country and the world and sold
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: to some of the most powerful men in the American government.
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: John David Norman, it's known, had an extensive clientele list,
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: and John Wayne Gacy was deeply involved in local government
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: in one of the US's largest and most important cities.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: Gasey and Coral both had too many coincidences between them
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: to simply be purely coincidences. They were tied together in
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: multiple ways, not just through time, but through circumstance as well.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: The events that pulled these three names together are too
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: correlated to be ignored and if ever proven true. Well,
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: we know that it's true, but if ever actually investigated
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: by the government, they could unravel all we think we
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: know about the purity of American politics and the justice system.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: This massive child pandering network that Norman ran has similarities
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: to others as well. Yasey had said that he worked
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: for a syndicate that set people up, and this was
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: the purpose of the Franklin credit union operating in Nebraska. Obviously,
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: I can't talk too much about Franklin right now, but
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: you're going to see how deep I've gone on that
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: story very soon.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to say any more than that.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: But while this can't really be proven because Gaysey's dead,
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: John David Norman's dead, Philip Pasky's dead, Dean Coral's dead,
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: almost all the power players in this story are dead,
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: the truth is there for people to research and decide
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: on for themselves. It's a very dark day when people
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: cannot trust their own government. Both the evidence provided just
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: simply in John David Norman's case and the conclusions drawn
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: from his connections to these two killers. It may be
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: a dark day we have to walk through right now.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: John David Norman John Wayne Gacy and Dean Coral are
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: only a small group. A massive web exists in fact,
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: one where strings are pulled that connect name to name,
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: event to event.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: And murder to murder.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: A lifetime of research and investigation could not cover this
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 1: entire tangled web of darkness. It's a wealth of information
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: on this sordid underground world that simply boggles the mind.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: This web is one of secrecy and destruction, a weave
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: of shadows that ties evil together with evil. With this
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: tapestry of blinding horror, we are forced to reflect on
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: the chilling ways these three men are interlinked. As most
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: usually believe, these three are merely isolated cases, one criminal
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: maniac acting apart from the others, each with their own
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: mind of horror and torment. And yet when the facts
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: are presented and the cases are drawn into the light
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: through the work of tireless investigation, the web of connections
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: becomes as visible as the light of day, lending a
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: clear picture of their roles working together to proffer a
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: nationwide ring of murder and exploitation. These men certainly did
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: not work alone. Such an operation would have taken severe
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: steps to conceal for the length of time that they operated,
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: and one was only found out when his accomplice turned
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: on him in a sudden act of unexpected heroism. John
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: David Norman was protected time and time again by the
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: authorities and the government for his crimes. Why else would
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: he have been protected by his own government unless he
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: was providing them with a service. We're going to talk
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: about that more next week. Norman had to have operators.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: He didn't perform all the roles himself. You can't run
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: a national international CSAM distribution and production and child by yourself.
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: He needed footmen, he needed actors in the films and photos,
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: and if he was creating, he needed killers and body
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: disposal experts. It's only through the efforts of investigators that
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: these ties were revealed. Left to those who were allegedly
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: supposed to protect us, these ties would have been severed forever,
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: left as isolated dark marks in American history. The destruction
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: of evidence, omissions from court documents, covering for inconvenient truths.
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: All these things were done to hide the monster in
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: the closet that no one dared to confront. And yet
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: those who believe in truly protecting the innocent can always
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: win out. Light can always be shown to fight away
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: the darkness. And I want you out there to really
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: remember that and take that to heart. This light is
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: created through vigilance, and to remain vigilant, we must heed
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: the warnings when they appear. We have to listen to
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: our instincts when they tell us that there's more to
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: the story. If people had taken the stories of Gacy,
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: Coral and Norman as presented at face value, no one
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: would have seen these strange relations on their own. It's
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: owed to the lives loss to bring these relations to
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: the surface, to dig them out of obscurity, to serve
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: justice and to deliver truth. We may not be able
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: to change the horrors of the past, but we can
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: prevent the nightmares of the future. Darkness is only allowed
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: to fester when it is ignored, and anyone can abate
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: it if they create.
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 2: The light for themselves.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: Oh got some chills there when an ending. All right,
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: all right, y'all, I'm gonna get out of here real quick.
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: Next week is the finale to this John David Norman
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: series where we're going even deeper government connections and more
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: connections to other killers and other rings and other scandals,
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: and it is truly the most mind blowing episode of
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: all of them, because now you got Norman is the first.
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 1: Now you got the Clown and the Canyonman, then you
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: got the Spiderweb.
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: Wow? Is that going to rock your word?
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: Anyways, y'all, if you've enjoyed today's show, if you're watching
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: on YouTube, please leave me a comment and let me
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: know what you think of this story. Please be sure
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: to like, share the videos and subscribe to the channel.
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: If you're listening to the show, please leave me a
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: five star review wherever you listen. I always love hearing
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: from you guys and seeing those reviews. But yeah, we'll
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: see you guys next week. Keep that tinfoil hat on,
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: always question everything, stay suspicious, and I'll see you next Wednesday.