Latest / Identity at the Center / #312 - Authenticate 2024 - Kim Cameron Award Winner Grace Klutke

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#312 - Authenticate 2024 - Kim Cameron Award Winner Grace Klutke · Identity at the Center

0:00
The connection to human rights is so apparent, and I did not
0:03
expect that at all. I largely saw technology as
0:06
something being really removed from the ethical side of human
0:10
rights. And it is so deeply connected
0:13
and conversations that I've had about making technology
0:16
accessible where air populations that might not have multiple
0:20
forms of identification might not have access to pass key
0:23
technology. How can you include them in this
0:26
new wave and not completely exclude them moving forward?
0:30
Because I do think this is such a positive way to the future,
0:32
but you have to account for that as well.
0:35
And so that has been just really, really inspiring to see
0:38
and to hear and I hope to have more of that moving forward.
0:42
The non serious conference revelation has been, I'm trying
0:45
to wrap my head around tech casual, tech formal because it's
0:48
very different than long and everyone here is dressed
0:51
differently. So I'm trying to figure out what
0:54
is the dress code. I really like it because it is
0:57
so open and casual and but wrapping my head around that
1:01
coming from a suit's background has been a a new step for me.
1:05
So you want to you want to attract Jim.
1:07
When it comes to the fashion service, possibly the best well
1:10
dressed man and all of identity, you go with Jim.
1:14
He can set the tone for you. This is identity at the center
1:24
if it has anything to do with IAM.
1:27
This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff
1:34
Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the
1:41
Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
1:43
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
1:45
Not so bad yourself. Terrible.
1:47
Terrible. I'm not happy at all.
1:48
Okay, obviously kidding. I'm in San Diego or more.
1:53
Specifically Carlsbad. Well, I mean, you find ways to
1:56
complain about a lot of things, so.
1:57
Yeah, that's a good point. But I'm very happy.
2:00
I mean, the weather is perfect. We're at the Authenticate Office
2:04
2024 and in podcasting. I mean, this is the life, right?
2:10
Yeah, I mean, can't, can't get any better than this.
2:12
Who's got it better than us? Nobody, right?
2:14
That's nobody Phrase. Yeah.
2:15
Authenticate 2024. Special thanks to the Fido group
2:18
for getting us out here. And I think we've already talked
2:22
about it, and some of these episodes might be out of order
2:24
as I get around to editing them, but we did a Fido feud thing on
2:27
the stage yesterday, which was probably the most fun I think
2:31
I've had at a conference to date.
2:33
And I'm looking very much forward to turning that into an
2:36
episode in the future. I also want to thank RSM, who is
2:40
our employer in our day jobs. They're picking up all of our
2:43
expenses. So not only are we here in this
2:46
wonderful place, but we don't have to pay for it out of our
2:48
own pockets. Yeah.
2:49
So thanks, Daniel. Thanks, Ghazi.
2:51
If you want to help us out, check out rsmus.com and hire us
2:55
for digital identity consulting needs.
2:58
OK, So what else we got, we got authenticate this week.
3:02
Yep. You and I actually going to be
3:04
at sale point Navigate next week.
3:06
So by the time people listen to this one, which I hope to get
3:09
out on Monday, we will already be at sale point Navigate in
3:12
Orlando. So we're Criss crossing the US
3:15
and then we're going to be at Gartner.
3:17
I am later this year in Grapevine and we have a discount
3:20
code for people. So if you use the code IDAC 375,
3:24
you get $375. Clever how that works, right?
3:28
And you get that off your registration.
3:29
So I'll have a link in our show notes for people to check that
3:31
out. It'll take advantage of it and
3:33
yeah, we'll be a Gartner. We're doing something I don't.
3:35
Know what stage we're going to be doing a use case.
3:37
A use case of what? Use?
3:40
A use case of use OK. Well, we'll figure it out.
3:42
It'll be very Casey. OK, All right, let's see, what
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else? Anything else?
3:47
Or should we get to our guests? Get to it?
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Yeah, They're staring at us across the table, politely
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chuckling. We've got a couple people.
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But first of all, we've got Grace Kluky.
3:55
She's the Kim Cameron Award winner this year from the
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Digital Identity Advancement Foundation.
4:00
And then we've got Aaron Crowe and Ian Glaser, both from the
4:03
Digital Identity Advancement Foundation.
4:05
So Grace, welcome. It's your first time on the
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show. Thank you.
4:08
Thank you. I'm so happy.
4:09
To be here. So this is, I hate to say it,
4:10
but this is probably the pinnacle of your career being on
4:13
this podcast. So it's probably all downhill
4:15
from here. As Ian and Aaron could probably
4:18
attest, They've been on the show before, and I don't think
4:21
they've reached such heights as when they've been on this
4:23
episode or on this podcast before.
4:25
So welcome. You're really overdoing it
4:27
today. What are you talking about?
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We're here. This is great, Ian.
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Welcome back to the show. Thanks again for having us.
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It's, it's really a pleasure. It's always fun.
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And I have to thank the IDOC folks for supporting Daya.
4:41
You guys have been there since last year when we first
4:43
announced the organization, and I've always been so supportive.
4:46
So I I deeply thank not only you, but the listening audience.
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Well, I mean, you guys put together such a good
4:51
organization and Aaron welcome you to the show as well.
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So feel free to grab the mic. This is our budget.
4:56
We have 1 mic for two people. Yeah.
4:58
Thanks for having us back. I've been excited about this
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conversation all week and getting to talk a little bit
5:02
about what we've been up to at DAF and also hearing from Grace
5:05
and a bit about her background, which is really, really
5:07
interesting. So let's get to Grace in your
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story, because you've won the Kim Cameron Award.
5:13
Or your award. I'm not sure how that works
5:15
right, what the right terminology is, but take us
5:18
through your journey. How did you, how did you one,
5:21
become aware of it and then two, what was the process to go to
5:24
apply for it? And then you found out you were
5:27
awarded this thing. And then just take us through
5:29
that. Yes, definitely.
5:30
So I don't have a technical background, so I didn't find my
5:33
way here through a straightforward Rd., I think.
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But I was in law school and I take privacy law, cybersecurity,
5:41
Internet law, and kept going through the same catch phrases.
5:45
And I really wanted to find something to anchor my
5:48
understanding of the tech world and privacy and found Kim
5:52
Cameron and his laws through that.
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And that was really, really instrumental for me
5:57
understanding what frameworks there are and how the Internet
6:00
should be governed, how it works right now.
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And then speaking with my professors, looking at different
6:06
organizations that follow through.
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That's how I found the award. And it just kind of fit that it
6:10
was titled the Kim Cameron Award as that being kind of my guiding
6:14
pillars as I'm learning privacy and Internet law.
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And I think it's just very informative for law in general
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to know those codes and pillars and how they speak to our
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interactions online. Yeah, I think Kim was such a big
6:27
thinker in this space. I mean, the first time I became
6:30
aware of him was my very first identity conference back in O 6.
6:36
So it was the not sure which conference it was.
6:39
Either way, he was kind of announcing these laws of
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identity and they're still as relevant today as they were back
6:47
then. So Ian, Aaron, you guys are from
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the Digital Identity Advances Foundation.
6:55
We aren't. For you guys, there's Identity
6:58
Advancement Foundation. Everybody, I'm glad everybody
7:02
was excited as I am. So tell us a little bit about
7:06
the organization, but then I also want to hear some about,
7:09
like, why Kim Cameron, the world?
7:13
Yeah. And so I could start us off.
7:14
So the Digital Identity Advancement Foundation or DAF,
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much easier for us all to say, is a nonprofit organization
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dedicated to furthering the cause of digital identity and
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the development of digital identity practitioners.
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There are a couple of ways we do this.
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We have some award programs that Ian will talk about more in a
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few moments, but really like that's kind of the the
7:37
foundation of our mission is being able to develop this
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community, give a little bit back to it and bring in some new
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folks and help them establish their ties here as well.
7:48
So the the Kim Award comes originally from the Open ID
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Foundation. So when Kim passed away, he
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spent a lot of his time in the OIDF furthering a variety of
8:00
standards and technologies, but also was a mentor to a lot of
8:04
those people and peer, including myself.
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So the OIDF originally created the award and as it had grown
8:12
over time and as OIDF grew over time, they were looking for a
8:16
place for that award to live on with more dedicated focus, let's
8:20
say. And so the old executive
8:24
director came to myself and Alan Foster, the third head of the
8:28
three headed monster that is DIAF and talked about how can we
8:32
find a place to really let this award and others grow out of
8:36
that came die off. And so we had funding to
8:42
continue Kim's award. We actually expanded on that.
8:45
So this year we have 5 winners, Grace being the the last of the
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five for this year. And we went through the
8:53
basically the award process. We solicited for people's sort
8:57
of applications to this, and then we had some folks, some
9:00
from the OIDF and ourselves, involved in sort of looking
9:03
through them and saying like, who would be a good fit?
9:06
Kim was a troublemaker. Like Kim liked a good argument.
9:11
Kim liked to be controversial in a useful way.
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And I think one of the ways that he was really keen on that was
9:18
to help younger people in their career or newer people in their
9:21
career, get involved and help them to be controversial, help
9:25
them to bring something a little bit different to this story.
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So we're super thrilled to be able to continue that legacy and
9:30
then to build upon them. And that challenge of thinking
9:34
right is something I think it's very healthy for the industry at
9:37
large because if we just take, OK, this is how we've always
9:39
done it, how are we ever going to grow and move forward in the
9:42
industry? I want to ask you, I know we're
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going to get to talk about Kim Cameron, but you also do the
9:47
Vittorio Vitocchi award too. Can you guys talk about what
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that means and I guess who the recipients of that might be and
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how does that process look like? Yeah.
9:54
So the Vittorio Portaccio award is a little bit different.
9:58
So whereas the Kim Cameron award focuses on people that are new
10:01
to the industry, even sometimes students, new grads, people like
10:05
that, the VBA focuses on people that are more tenured in their
10:09
careers. They're focusing on digital
10:11
identity standards and academic work.
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So they get to basically create a plan of study for what events
10:17
they want to go to, to contribute to their very
10:19
critical work on various standards.
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For example, we have one awardee that is going to work on Skim
10:24
next year. So we are funding her to go to
10:26
two different IETF events. We have another awardee who is
10:29
an academic that'll be presenting his own research at
10:32
the International Conference on Conceptual Modeling, which is
10:34
very, very cool. So they it just has a very, very
10:38
different focus on kind of the different ends of the spectrum
10:40
of somebody's career. And I think the the important
10:44
part, especially with the award honoring Victoria's legacy is
10:47
his passion for standards. Like we were very determined to
10:50
make sure we continue that legacy.
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And so being able to sponsor both academics and practitioners
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to get involved in standards or to continue to be involved
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because one of the things wearing a slightly different
11:02
hat, wearing My ID Pro hat, we know that there's a great deal
11:05
of interest in applying standards.
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However, there's also less of an interest to participate in the
11:10
process. And that's a strategic
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vulnerability for the industry, right?
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We've got to facilitate more people getting involved and dive
11:17
is just one of the ways to do that.
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So I remember the name of the conference of Digital ID World.
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I wanted to throw that in. The IDW man that was that was
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kind of the 1st right. That was Eric Norland, Phil
11:29
Becker. It was the first identity
11:31
conference and it was I was there when Kim did the, the,
11:35
the, the laws. I remember just sitting there
11:37
like, I don't know what the word reify mean.
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It's like I was like, he's using really big words.
11:43
I have no idea what's going on. I mean, overtime got to learn
11:47
about, but yeah, man, that was it.
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Was it? Was super cool like that's when
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I realized this digital identity spaces for me because it wasn't
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just ones and zeros. It was like philosophy.
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I thought it was super cool. Anyway, one thing I wanted to
12:02
come to close this part of the conversation for listeners.
12:05
If they want to get involved with the IAF or play a role in
12:09
supporting the organization, how do you recommend they do that?
12:16
So we are, our programs are 100% sponsored by well our
12:22
supporters, individuals and organizations like the OIDF.
12:26
So one way to contribute is literally to contribute dieath
12:30
dot link slash donate One of the easiest ways to do it.
12:34
One of the things that we're really excited about for next
12:37
year is to build more outreach programs to universities to
12:42
start addressing a pipeline problem of where do we build new
12:45
practitioners? Where can we find where can we
12:47
instill some interest in it? Like Grace had the sort of the
12:51
sense like, wait a minute, this privacy thing, there's like some
12:54
ties to this other thing. It seems to be called identity.
12:57
What's the heck's out about? And Kim, this Kim guy is talking
12:59
about something, but we need more people like that, right?
13:02
So we are looking to build relationships with the
13:04
universities to find ways that we can maybe build identity
13:08
education programs, but also to find new opportunities and ways
13:11
for we that we can help. Like we don't have all the
13:14
answers in this. So if you're listening, you
13:17
know, if you're working in higher education research and
13:20
you're like, oh, you know, you should talk to XYZ professor,
13:23
reach out. There's a contact form on the
13:24
website. We'd love to talk to you because
13:27
we want to figure out ways to start building a larger, more
13:30
diverse population of practitioners, and we want to
13:33
start, frankly, as young as we can get.
13:35
And we'll have a link in our show notes too, for people to
13:37
find that make it easy to find. DIDIAF dot link for sure.
13:42
Great. So let's get back to you because
13:44
we've been talking awful lot about Kim Cameron and his laws
13:47
of identity. Was there a specific law that
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kind of drew you into the space? Like, OK, I want to join these
13:53
these wild people on the identity side.
13:56
How does how did that come around or maybe influence maybe
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your perspective on the way that identity and was was manifesting
14:04
within your life? Right.
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They're all very interconnected. So whether it's just Bible
14:08
parties or consent control, they all relate so closely.
14:11
I think the genius is is that it's not technical specific in
14:16
all aspects. It's philosophical, it's legal,
14:19
it really goes through a bunch of different domains and
14:22
explains how we should be governing those interactions.
14:25
So I think just the genius of the words really scoops to
14:29
people from all sides of the privacy into all sides of the
14:33
digital identity world and can govern how we stretch our
14:38
interactions online. I think it was very clear to me,
14:41
which really spoke to me as someone who doesn't have a
14:43
background here and can't understand some of the acronyms
14:46
that I've been learning this week and needs to go back and go
14:49
through that. But it was really easy to
14:51
understand and get behind. And I think that was what really
14:54
do, man. And I think that's one of the
14:56
one of the things that people really need to realize is you
14:58
don't need to be a technical person to be in digital
15:01
identity. There's so much more to this
15:04
space. It's not just coding, it's not
15:06
just configuration, it's project management, program management,
15:09
communications, it's social engineering within your, within
15:14
your organization to drive support, right?
15:16
Things like that. We call that politicking.
15:20
IPS There is a little bit of a mayoral aspect to it, right?
15:24
Shaking hands, kissing babies, right, That sort of thing.
15:26
But there is so much more room within the identity space.
15:29
I'm glad that hopefully that message is getting out because I
15:32
think it's a perfect example of like, yeah, not everybody is a
15:34
coder. I'm not a coder, but I know
15:36
identity. I've been in the space long
15:38
enough where it's like, I feel like I can contribute in other
15:40
ways that isn't, you know, I would say turning a screw, but
15:44
it'll be more like, you know, typing in a code or anything
15:46
like that. So I'm very excited that that's
15:49
starting to hopefully get out more for people.
15:52
Yes, it agrees. You know, I think look at the
15:56
loss of identity if you, I'm trying to say, OK, this is an
16:00
idealistic set of laws that would be great if they were
16:04
actually like the world was following them.
16:07
You know, for example, that people should control what data
16:10
they pass and that only a minimal amount of data gets
16:13
passed. And if everyone followed that,
16:16
the world would be a better place, I think.
16:19
But I'm wondering, did is it, is your perspective kind of cynical
16:24
now that you said, all right, these ideas have been out here
16:28
for almost 20 years. They're not followed in in many
16:32
cases. You look and there's some really
16:34
bad examples. How did you kind of like take
16:38
that and put a filter on it? Or did it make you become
16:41
cynical? Right, exactly.
16:42
You read the laws and you see this utopia of how a perfect
16:46
society can be, and then you realize they were written 20
16:48
years ago and it's it hasn't panned out.
16:51
But I think I was very cynical from the legal side just because
16:55
you hear about so many data breaches and it seems like this
16:57
is an ongoing issue. But in reality, I think the laws
17:01
changed that because you see that there is a framework that
17:04
can be added, maybe not perfectly, but having an
17:07
identity layer on the Internet is something that can really
17:10
help structure the interactions. And I hope to see more
17:14
engagement from the legal side and fly into that as well,
17:17
because I think that could limit the way it's followed right now.
17:20
That's a limitation that we have, that there's not enough
17:23
fly in. And once people can see that and
17:27
just have that as their base activities, that would really
17:30
change the way that the Internet is run right now.
17:33
Yeah. So you've got a legal
17:36
background, and I'm curious, how do you leverage that legal
17:42
background and help move the idea of digital identity
17:46
forward? Is there some intersection there
17:48
where it's like, OK, identity, human rights laws, you know,
17:54
does that become Kim Cameron's laws, become part of the
17:57
Constitution, right, things like that.
17:59
Or maybe it's an identity constitution or something like
18:01
that. We were.
18:02
So I'm going to go out of order here because we just recorded an
18:06
episode with Dean Sacks talking about death and the digital
18:09
estate. People aren't going to hear that
18:11
for a couple of weeks still, But I'm curious to get your
18:15
perspective on this from the legal side of things.
18:17
OK, What are things that we should be thinking about from
18:20
that perspective? And how do you see that
18:22
background helping you push things forward?
18:25
I was very fortunate I spoke with him about this and I think
18:27
it's just a genius idea that hasn't been fully brought to
18:31
fruition, but needs to be this idea that tech isn't everything
18:34
that we do and that identity is a layer that is on law as well
18:38
and should be. So I think leveraging my
18:41
background in law has been really realizing all the
18:44
interconnections that are there, how you know, pass keys are a
18:48
wonderful, wonderful device that need to be really accessible to
18:51
all kinds of populations and how you can work through the equity
18:55
of that. And so I think they work
18:57
completely hand in hand. I think Kim Tamron's idea of a
19:01
layer of identity is already on law.
19:04
It's just not accepted, maybe to the point that it should be.
19:07
But they really go together completely with human rights and
19:11
leveraging technology. And also on the flip side,
19:14
making sure technology abides with human rights and is
19:17
accessible. They all go hand in hand.
19:19
Get. Out you said topic surrounding
19:22
identity being taught in law school.
19:24
I mean, is this something that is being included in that human
19:28
rights conversation or how's it being approached?
19:31
Or are we just not there yet? It's really I was very fortunate
19:35
that I had a professor who has tuned in to his fear and has
19:38
tuned into privacy and Internet. I think overall it's not as
19:41
connected as we should be, especially in human rights, and
19:44
I think that's why adding the educational aspect is so
19:47
important to all aspects. Graduate studies, undergraduate,
19:51
there's a real need and there's a lot of benefits that will come
19:54
with that as it slowly grows and advances.
19:56
So it's a really great plan to have as both of those worlds
20:01
move forward. Yeah, I think what what Jeff is
20:04
referring to and how themes talk about death in the digital
20:08
estate. You know, we talked about what's
20:12
the solution as part of regulation and he said he thinks
20:17
so, right. And so I was kind of applying
20:20
that to just over all, all the elements of Kim's laws of
20:25
identity and thinking about GDPR, right.
20:29
That pushed privacy a lot further than a lot of countries
20:32
were ready to. But now you see countries like
20:36
the United States coming around to say, all right, well, we need
20:39
to take this seriously. There's a model that's been
20:42
around for a number of years. Do you see something like that
20:46
potentially being the path forward for these laws?
20:51
Definitely. I think with death in the
20:52
digital estate, you have this idea of justifiable parties and
20:56
who should have access to that when you pass on and how can we
20:59
make that a legally secure and also feasible route.
21:02
I think that is clear connections.
21:05
And so going back to the more broad standards approach, which
21:09
would be the laws of identity and instead of more specific
21:13
that can have really great effects on identity and making
21:17
guidelines going forward. Is there a specific challenge
21:21
that that jumps out at you as far as OK, you're you're getting
21:26
in this space? Like why haven't we addressed
21:28
this yet? Like is there something that has
21:31
jumped out yet to you? I think so.
21:34
I think there's a lot of imposter syndrome going between
21:39
the world's because I don't have any technical background.
21:42
I being here, I realized that that's not a barrier of entry in
21:45
any way. But I think there still is this
21:47
idea that if you're not a tech person, you don't fit into this
21:50
world, and vice versa with law. But just seeing that as a
21:55
boundary that doesn't really exist and working through that
21:58
is, I think, the biggest thing towards moving those worlds
22:01
closer. I have a bias here that I think
22:06
some people would just go to medical school or law school to
22:10
make a lot of money. But I get the sense that you're
22:13
in it for much more. And I'm kind of wondering, I'm
22:16
sure you thought about your future and how you going to take
22:18
what you're learning here and kind of these learnings that
22:21
you've had with law school and now tying it to technology and
22:27
wondering how do you see using that in the future?
22:31
It's a great question. I think when I look at my future
22:34
and how those worlds combine, I think in any job you always have
22:37
to have an eye on both of them. And right now, looking at issues
22:43
of humanitarian law and human rights law in general, I think
22:48
that necessarily has to combine the two.
22:50
So keeping those in mind, it's a little bit of an uphill battle,
22:54
I think, in some contexts, posing the rationale of why they
22:58
need to be connected. But you're right, I think a lot
23:02
of people go to law school just because it's the path forward.
23:04
And it seems like it's more definite in terms of what your
23:08
future will look like. But being open to having those
23:11
different worlds intersect and being open to a career that does
23:14
have identity would be, I think, very empowering to any new
23:18
lawyer. I think the real key is to have
23:21
the right mentors along the way, you know, so finding some kind
23:25
of position, whether it's at a firm or whether it's in big tech
23:30
or something like that, but trying to identify who's going
23:33
to mentor you to help you get to that next level.
23:36
Exactly. I've heard over and over again
23:39
that people fall into this world by accident sometimes.
23:41
And I think maybe it's less than an accident.
23:43
You just have a mentor that really wishes you one critical
23:47
step forward. And for me, that was professors
23:49
in law school. But they can come from all
23:51
sides, just having the mentorship to go further into
23:55
the digital identity space. I think you've picked a great
23:58
spot to be in because I can't imagine digital identity,
24:02
privacy being any less important to go further along here.
24:06
And now we start to think about things like AI and what that's
24:09
going to do for things. You know, I think you're, I
24:12
think you've got a great background to really be getting
24:15
into the space now, because there are so many concerns that
24:17
people have around how are we going to govern and interpret
24:24
how data that's being collected about us?
24:27
And we're all, we're all consumers of identity in
24:29
addition to be in it. Is it appropriate for XYZ
24:32
company to be leveraging this set of data to do this other
24:36
thing, right? Or hey, let's let's create
24:38
Grace, the AI chat bot that is an expert in law and digital
24:44
identity. Are you OK with that?
24:46
Right. I mean, how And then what
24:48
happens with that kind of stuff? So I think I love your
24:50
background because I think there's going to be a big need
24:53
and a growing need for that. Definitely.
24:56
And laws and it's AI fails as well widely publicized.
25:00
And so I think trying to navigate that world with an eye
25:04
of how it can be impactful and how can we best use not misuse
25:09
is important. Yeah, I think identity data and
25:13
how it gets used with an AI, what are the borders between
25:18
ownership of data between Kelso will do.
25:21
That's going to be a big, you know, thing to solve in the
25:24
future. But Speaking of mentors, you got
25:27
2 mentors next to you of the day and Ian and Aaron, I was
25:31
wondering what advice might you each individually give to Grace
25:38
in terms of, you know, how to be, how to make an impact on the
25:43
world of identity? I would just say like first of
25:47
all to take it step by step. I know that you said that you've
25:50
seen a ton and already are inspired by a lot of the
25:53
conference and it can be really easy to get, I think overwhelmed
25:56
by how much new information there is.
25:58
So the first best thing that you can do is you already have this
26:02
great background. You're very well spoken, you're
26:04
clearly very smart. I think the best thing that you
26:06
can do is give yourself time to develop as a professional,
26:10
develop your identity, expertise and anything that you contribute
26:14
back to the industry in this really important sector is going
26:18
to be, I think, impactful. I think taking a mentor, as we
26:22
talked about earlier during WID will be super useful.
26:24
Taking additional mentors, I mean, and yeah, just taking more
26:27
time to in addition to us, we're here of course as well.
26:32
But yeah, I think being confident in that focused voice
26:35
that you'll develop over time is going to be one of the key
26:38
things to how you'll. Contribute I mean, I think from
26:44
my perspective, something I learned from privacy
26:46
practitioners was to ask a question of what else could this
26:51
information be used for? And that kind of curiosity, I
26:55
think was is really important because not only is that in some
26:58
regards the genesis of our privacy impact assessment, but
27:02
it's also as an identity practitioner, a how do we think
27:06
about protecting this? How do we think about whether we
27:08
need it in our identity systems or not?
27:10
Like, so the question of what else is this or could it be used
27:14
for is incredibly useful as a professional, right?
27:19
And that curiosity of how is this is my lane, yeah, but how
27:24
is it impacted by this thing over here?
27:25
And how could it be used or benefited or could there be a
27:28
detriment? I think that's a really powerful
27:31
thing. And just like keeping that kind
27:32
of curiosity and openness and sort of a habit to be like, what
27:36
else is this used for? Where else?
27:39
Why? And like that I think is a
27:41
really powerful thing because once you have that sense, then
27:44
how you apply it, how we use it, how we protect it, that becomes
27:46
a really different conversation and a really powerful 1 so.
27:50
You have to forgive me, I get all choked up sometimes just
27:53
talking about identity. Grace, what's next?
27:56
Like what are what are you most looking forward to as you get
28:00
into this space? Like what is what's on your
28:03
horizon right now? I think next for me is going
28:07
through my notes and looking at all the things I learned, all
28:10
the acronyms and figuring out what the terminology is and
28:14
going back to the to the white board and mapping that out.
28:17
I've learned so much this week and I think I've really have so
28:22
many their passport into what a career in digital identity can
28:25
look like and what it can be. And so going back, I've tried to
28:30
be a sponge this week and now going back and figuring all of
28:33
that out will be important. And I think encouraging other
28:36
people as well from the legal side to because I'm involved in
28:39
this world is something that I really want to do as well and is
28:42
on my To Do List going on from this conference.
28:46
Yeah. It's funny you mentioned the
28:47
acronym thing, because I feel like that's the one thing that
28:49
this industry is really good at, is coming up with a wide variety
28:53
of acronyms. So Grace, you saw all these
28:57
people on stage presenting. Ian, of course is always
29:01
presenting. What do you think about that?
29:03
Is that something you want to do?
29:04
Get on stage in front of all these people and give a talk.
29:08
We were speaking about this earlier.
29:10
It seems very daunting here, everyone is so well spoken, but
29:13
you do have this big stage with the lights and so I've
29:17
definitely been very inspired watching both of you speak and
29:21
it's not something that naturally I really go towards,
29:25
but I think it's very inspiring to see in.
29:28
Some ways I think it's easier to get up on the stage in front of
29:31
all these people with the light shining in your face.
29:34
You can't see the people out in the audience, so you could be
29:37
presenting to an empty room and you wouldn't know the
29:39
difference. So here's here's the pro tip,
29:42
start a podcast broadcast to thousands of people and then
29:47
you'll lose that stage, right? And then go up there and then
29:49
realize, oh, none of that transferred and you have to
29:52
figure it all out to go when you get up on stage.
29:54
So just a little pro tip. Let's see.
29:59
So Grace, I'm curious if anything has jumped out at you
30:04
this week. So you've been here now for two
30:07
days roughly. What's like the what's the vibe
30:11
like? What were you expecting coming
30:13
in? Anything surprising, both
30:16
positive or negative? Like, let's get into that, OK?
30:19
Well, I have a serious and a non serious 1A serious one being the
30:23
connection to human rights is so apparent and I did not expect
30:26
that at all. I largely saw technology as
30:29
something being really removed from the ethical side of human
30:33
rights. And it is so deeply connected
30:36
and conversations that I've had about making technology
30:39
accessible where air populations that might not have multiple
30:43
forms of identification might not have access to pass key
30:46
technology. How can you include them in this
30:49
new wave and not completely exclude them moving forward?
30:53
Because I do think this is such a positive way to the future,
30:55
but you have to account for that as well.
30:58
And so that has been just really, really inspiring to see
31:01
and to hear. And I hope to have more of that
31:03
moving forward. The non serious conference
31:07
revelation has been I'm trying to wrap my head around tech
31:10
casual, tech formal, because it's very different than long
31:13
and everyone here is dressed differently.
31:15
So I'm trying to figure out what is the dress code.
31:18
I really like it because it is so open and casual and but
31:23
wrapping my head around that coming from a suit's background
31:25
has been a a new step for me. So you want to you want to
31:30
attract Jim. When it comes to the fashion
31:32
servant, possibly the best well dressed man and all of identity,
31:36
you go with Jim. He can set the tone for you.
31:39
Thank you and do my best. I have to bring something to
31:43
this craziness. That's when I tried to do it.
31:47
Actually, this is very muted. It is for me.
31:50
Yeah, I was expecting like a flashy jacket or.
31:52
Something yeah, sometimes they do like a like a tuxedo jacket
31:57
or something. But here's what happened was
32:00
I've been on the road for over a month without going home due to
32:03
the hurricane. And so I have what I had in my
32:07
back last meeting I was, I was like a stuffy business meeting.
32:11
So I could have gone out and spent some money at Macy's
32:14
though. Your your commitment to the bit
32:17
is starting to wane a little bit, yeah.
32:19
Well, there's always Gartner in December.
32:22
So Speaking of dressing at conferences, I think we should
32:26
probably do like a quick rating on most formal to least formal.
32:31
And I feel like Gartner tends to be a little more formal.
32:34
New. For better or for worse, I'm
32:39
going to say ideniverse is somewhere in the middle.
32:42
And I think this one is a little bit more casual.
32:46
Ian, you're shaking your head and seeming to like, where do
32:48
you feel like that from a rank perspective?
32:50
And I'm Erin, I want to get your thoughts on it as well.
32:53
Yeah, EIC 2 is I think missing from that list and I would
32:56
probably put that at one of the more slightly formal ones.
32:59
Do you what about identity adjacent conferences?
33:02
Because DEFCON is probably the most OIW.
33:05
I never had IOW. I've never been to IW either,
33:10
but. I know, I know, it's on my list,
33:13
but yeah, that's how I would put them in the rankings.
33:16
And you think that's an unconference?
33:19
You can wear whatever you want. Yeah, sounds like my kind of
33:21
jam. I mean, I'm super comfortable
33:23
with that. I don't want to put a jacket in
33:25
a tie. Did you get around the Expo
33:28
hall? Did you get to talk to a lot of
33:29
the vendors? And did you get any of the
33:32
freebies, the swag? A little bit.
33:34
I'm still working up to it. I have some new T-shirts that I
33:38
will be working through, but I have to make a couple more laps
33:42
I think, as the days go on and. And get some more swags.
33:46
This is how I judge conferences is the the quality of the swag
33:51
and then how good their cookies or Donuts.
33:54
So last year there were Donuts here at night.
33:57
It was after, I think it was after the food trucks, which
33:59
were last night. I didn't see any Donuts last
34:01
night. But I'm hopeful that there will
34:03
be a recovery tonight. If you're, if you're listening,
34:07
Andrew or Megan or Adrian. And I'm expecting Donuts or
34:11
cookies later tonight. So I can neither confirm nor
34:14
deny that at Gartner events, Gartner analysts may or may not
34:18
make a Magic quadrant of swag up from the vendor hallway.
34:23
That might be true, that might not be true.
34:25
But if it was true, it was pretty awesome to see it done
34:28
out again if I observe such a thing.
34:30
I think we just found our next, our next stage presentation
34:35
where, you know, we don't learn anything about it any but we we
34:38
analyze the conference that we're at and we do some sort of
34:41
analysis on, OK, let's see, let's do a conference report
34:44
card swag, thumbs up, thumbs down and get like some judges
34:48
out there, the food, the ambiance like.
34:51
That I think if you don't leave with a pair of socks, you really
34:53
weren't there. I'm not a sock guy.
34:55
I know a lot of people are. Are you guys sock?
34:57
I know you are. I know.
34:58
I'm sorry. Definitely.
34:59
Those are funny ones. I'm just not a sock guy.
35:01
Are you a sock person, Grace? I would love some.
35:03
I didn't see any going around so.
35:05
I'll have to. Keep my radar up, yeah.
35:08
But that's, but that's not on the conference, that's on the
35:11
vendors, right? They need to up their game.
35:13
Yes. That's true.
35:14
You a sock person? I'm not a big sock lady, except
35:17
I have my little past key socks, so we need to see if we can get
35:19
you a pair of those. That's the point.
35:23
OK, well, I think that's probably a good spot.
35:24
We can wrap it up for this week. Congratulations.
35:27
Thank you. Welcome to the identity family.
35:31
The water's just fine. Wait on end.
35:33
It's a very, the one thing I really appreciate about this
35:35
community is it's very welcoming, It's open.
35:36
A lot of it is not secret sauce competitive stuff.
35:39
It's like we're all trying to do the right thing and protect our
35:41
users. And so I find that compared to
35:44
other industries, there's less of that competitive.
35:48
Now, of course, vendors are vendors, but for the most part,
35:51
people seem to get along. It's been a lot of fun.
35:53
So I hope you'll come back and share with us and see you at
35:55
another conference. And I'm going to ask you some
35:58
questions again in the future. Back.
35:59
All right, So we talked to you this day.
36:01
What's changed, right? Have you grown more cynical?
36:03
Do we like, need to like do more or, you know, have you have you,
36:07
you know, maybe turned over a positive leaf on things?
36:10
So I'm looking forward to that in the future.
36:13
I'm. Looking forward to that as well.
36:14
Really looking forward to seeing the impact you make on the
36:16
industry. Hopefully we can have you back
36:18
5-10 years down the road. We can be the first person to
36:21
say you chose identity as a career rather than they choosing
36:25
you. And yeah, thanks for doing the
36:29
show today. Thank you.
36:32
And thank you, Ian and Aaron for being on the show.
36:33
We'll have links in our show notes for people to check out.
36:36
So we'll have LinkedIn profiles for all of you guys.
36:39
Digital Identity Advancement Foundation DIAF dot link and you
36:43
can connect with us on the web, idacpodcast.com.
36:47
We're on Mastodon and Twitter and all that stuff.
36:49
YouTube. YouTube.
36:51
I knew you were going to hit it. idacpodcast.tv.
36:54
We'll take it right to our YouTube channel.
36:56
We are still actively trying to do more of the YouTube stuff.
36:59
And yeah, like and subscribe, do all those fun stuff and that'll
37:03
help us get great guests like the folks we had here today.
37:06
And the 10 covers is like this. So with that look, I'd leave it
37:08
for this week. Thanks everyone for watching and
37:11
or listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one.
37:16
You've been listening to Identity at the Center.
37:19
We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and
37:23
review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the
37:26
website at identity@thecenter.com.
37:30
See you next time on Identity at the Center.