Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / SMNTY Classics: An Interview with Katie Mitchell

Transcript

SMNTY Classics: An Interview with Katie Mitchell · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha A lot from Stuff
0:07
Speaker 1: I'll Never Told You Protection by Her Radio. And as
0:19
Speaker 1: we're entering the new year, we are still going back
0:24
Speaker 1: to some of our favorites, our favorite episodes of twenty
0:27
Speaker 1: twenty five, and one that we really loved was this
0:30
Speaker 1: interview that we did with Katie Mitchell, friend of the show,
0:34
Speaker 1: about her book pros to the People, and we ended
0:38
Speaker 1: up going to talk about it and book signing and
0:43
Speaker 1: it was just a really beautiful thing. If you haven't
0:48
Speaker 1: checked it out, it is just a really beautiful moving book.
0:51
Speaker 1: It is highly highly recommend it, and this conversation was great.
0:56
Speaker 1: It was just a fantastic conversation. So hopefully we'll get
0:59
Speaker 1: to have her back on one day, but in the meantime,
1:03
Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and
1:11
Speaker 1: Samantha a ky Stuff I Never Told You A production
1:13
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. And welcome back to the show, Katie Mitchell.
1:28
Speaker 1: It's been a minute, but we are so glad to
1:30
Speaker 1: have you back. Can you introduce yourself to our audience please.
1:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me back. I'm Katie Mitchell
1:38
Speaker 2: and I am the author of Prose to the People,
1:41
Speaker 2: a celebration of black bookstores.
1:44
Speaker 1: Yes, and last time you were on here, you were
1:46
Speaker 1: with our good friend Eves talking about on theme and
1:50
Speaker 1: the power of black storytelling, and you mentioned that you
1:56
Speaker 1: were working on this book about black bookstores and were like, yes,
2:01
Speaker 1: you must come back. You complete it, and here you are,
2:06
Speaker 1: and it's coming out as we record this very very soon.
2:11
Speaker 1: First of all, congrats, Yes, it is an amazing book
2:18
Speaker 1: and we'll be talking all about it. But can you
2:20
Speaker 1: give us the rundown of this book?
2:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, I say, pro to the people is a exploration
2:29
Speaker 2: of black bookstores across space and time. So I had
2:33
Speaker 2: the opportunity to travel all around the country talking to
2:36
Speaker 2: black bookstore owners. But I also included bookstores that no
2:39
Speaker 2: longer exist. So the book starts in eighteen thirty, which
2:43
Speaker 2: most people don't realize that we had black bookstores in
2:46
Speaker 2: eighteen thirty, and it goes all the way to present day.
2:49
Speaker 2: So I hope that people will look at the book
2:51
Speaker 2: and say, oh, hey, I want to go to this
2:53
Speaker 2: store when I'm in a particular city. But for the
2:56
Speaker 2: ones that are closed, I wanted people to be able
2:58
Speaker 2: to visit them in a way too.
3:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is something that's correct me if I'm wrong,
3:05
Speaker 1: but that it was very near and dear to your
3:07
Speaker 1: heart and kind of your interests in what you do,
3:09
Speaker 1: right exactly.
3:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you said, we were talking about black storytelling
3:13
Speaker 2: last time I was on and so black bookstores, of
3:16
Speaker 2: course like cradle all all of our stories. So I'm
3:19
Speaker 2: really excited about pros being almost out into the world.
3:24
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm a bookseller along with my mom, so
3:27
Speaker 2: I thought it was a perfect fit to bring this
3:29
Speaker 2: book to the people.
3:32
Speaker 1: Yes, and there were definitely some stories that were in
3:35
Speaker 1: there because we were all in Atlanta, and I was like, yes,
3:38
Speaker 1: I want to go and check this out. Can you
3:41
Speaker 1: tell us what made you decide to write this book?
3:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was just like a deep curiosity.
3:49
Speaker 2: I've seen how transformational black bookstores have been to myself,
3:55
Speaker 2: and I see them as transformational as say black church
4:00
Speaker 2: or black colleges. But I found that they were understudied institutions,
4:05
Speaker 2: which I found ironic because they cradle all our history
4:09
Speaker 2: and we haven't told the history of the black bookstore yet,
4:13
Speaker 2: and so that led me to want to learn more
4:15
Speaker 2: and to share it with others.
4:17
Speaker 1: And it's as you said, it was quite the process.
4:21
Speaker 1: It sounds like that you spent these two years traveling,
4:27
Speaker 1: you talked to a wide variety of people. How was
4:34
Speaker 1: that process for you and what are some of the
4:36
Speaker 1: places that maybe stand out?
4:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a lot of people, owners, customers, family members,
4:44
Speaker 2: you know. I had one instance in Atlanta where I
4:48
Speaker 2: was just talking about the book and I was saying
4:51
Speaker 2: that this bookstore in Harlem called Liberation Bookstore was in
4:56
Speaker 2: the book and she was like, oh, yeah, like that's
4:59
Speaker 2: my auntie. And I was like huh. And I was
5:02
Speaker 2: telling her how like I couldn't get pictures for that
5:04
Speaker 2: store because Pros is filled with pictures and a femerara,
5:08
Speaker 2: it's very visual and designed book. And I was telling
5:10
Speaker 2: her I was having a hard time finding pictures and
5:13
Speaker 2: she was like, I have pictures. And I was like, oh,
5:15
Speaker 2: can you bring them like tomorrow. She's like yeah, and
5:19
Speaker 2: she like gave me the original pictures. I was like, no,
5:21
Speaker 2: it's okay, I'll just take a scan of it. She's like, no,
5:23
Speaker 2: I want you to have it. I want it to
5:24
Speaker 2: be in the book. And so it was like kind
5:26
Speaker 2: of those like very like serendipitous encounters that made me
5:31
Speaker 2: feel like the book was just like supposed to happen,
5:34
Speaker 2: you know, like meeting people who are just so willing
5:36
Speaker 2: to help with the book. But yeah, traveling across the
5:40
Speaker 2: country and talking to people like I met so many
5:43
Speaker 2: elders who like really told me so much about what
5:47
Speaker 2: was going on in the sixties and you know, the seventies, eighties, nineties,
5:52
Speaker 2: and that was really helpful too to get their perspective.
5:55
Speaker 2: And some of them had even written about black bookstores
5:58
Speaker 2: from like the eighties and nineties, so that was helpful
6:01
Speaker 2: to incorporate that in the book and to be able
6:04
Speaker 2: to share their work and my work was really fun.
6:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was so cool. You went, you
6:10
Speaker 1: went all over. This is amazing. Was there something that
6:14
Speaker 1: you learned during your travels that really stuck with you.
6:18
Speaker 3: Yeah.
6:18
Speaker 2: One of the things that I kind of knew about
6:22
Speaker 2: the bookstore, but it kept coming up in the reporting
6:25
Speaker 2: was the connection to incarcerated people. And a lot of
6:32
Speaker 2: the bookstores have a component where they're making sure that
6:35
Speaker 2: books are getting to our incarcerated siblings, and that goes
6:39
Speaker 2: back from the sixties or even at the beginning, because
6:44
Speaker 2: the first black bookstore owner in the United States was abolitionists,
6:48
Speaker 2: so he was freeing people, like freeing the bodies and
6:52
Speaker 2: minds at the same time, right, And so I found
6:55
Speaker 2: that black bookstore owners really tried to take care of
6:59
Speaker 2: those who are incarcerated and people that the state attempts
7:02
Speaker 2: to disappear from our communities. So you'll find that at
7:07
Speaker 2: Radical Hood Library in la which is owned by the
7:11
Speaker 2: Rapper No Name, and even the Black Book Who which
7:15
Speaker 2: was owned by Paul Coates towannahassee Coats's dad in Baltimore.
7:20
Speaker 2: So he had a program where he was sending books
7:23
Speaker 2: to incarcerated Black panthers and making sure that they knew
7:27
Speaker 2: what was going on in the outside. So and that's
7:30
Speaker 2: something that I found really unique to black bookstores, right,
7:32
Speaker 2: Like you don't really hear about like grocery stores or
7:34
Speaker 2: even museums or you know, dentist offices really caring about
7:39
Speaker 2: what's going on with folks in prison in a in
7:42
Speaker 2: a collective way.
7:43
Speaker 4: So that was one thing that I learned.
7:46
Speaker 5: Wow, Like that's an incredible level of history that I
7:49
Speaker 5: didn't even think on, And that makes so much sense
7:52
Speaker 5: in just in general, like the tight knit community that
7:55
Speaker 5: these bookstores have built, Like just the fact that you
7:58
Speaker 5: in Atlanta are connecting to people in Harlem just in
8:02
Speaker 5: conversation in a bookstore, which is amazing. And you also
8:05
Speaker 5: earlier talked about the fact that it is an institution,
8:08
Speaker 5: that the black bookstores are an institution in itself. So
8:11
Speaker 5: can you kind of elaborate and define black bookstores and
8:15
Speaker 5: can you give us a brief history and the importance
8:18
Speaker 5: that they have left and continue to do.
8:20
Speaker 4: Yeah.
8:21
Speaker 2: So I defined black bookstores in prose to the people
8:23
Speaker 2: as a bookstore that specializes in black publications. And I
8:27
Speaker 2: make the distinction between a black bookstore and a black
8:30
Speaker 2: owned bookstore, which a black owned bookstore could be just
8:34
Speaker 2: a black person who owns a book store that carries
8:37
Speaker 2: all types of books that don't specialize in black publications.
8:41
Speaker 2: And yeah, they started, to the best of our knowledge
8:45
Speaker 2: with David Ruggles in the eighteen thirties and abolitionists who
8:48
Speaker 2: actually helped free Frederick Douglas. Him and his first wife
8:52
Speaker 2: were married at his bookstore, little known fact, and I
8:55
Speaker 2: think that set the tone for black bookstores in the
8:58
Speaker 2: United States of being sites of and we see this
9:02
Speaker 2: throughout history as black bookstores being at the vanguard of
9:06
Speaker 2: social movement. So the abolitionist movement, the civil rights movement,
9:10
Speaker 2: the Black Panther, black Power movement, black arts movement, and
9:14
Speaker 2: now the movement for Black Lives in Harlem, Malcolm X
9:17
Speaker 2: had his home bookstore, and like all the pictures that
9:20
Speaker 2: you see of him out in the street in Harlem,
9:21
Speaker 2: he's usually in front of that bookstore, you know, gathering
9:25
Speaker 2: people and trying to you know, get people to change
9:27
Speaker 2: their minds as he's trying to change society.
9:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you you talk a lot about how they
9:33
Speaker 1: serve as much more than a book store, Like they
9:38
Speaker 1: offer these places for social ideas, but also things like yeah,
9:43
Speaker 1: getting books two incarcerated people and just how that really
9:48
Speaker 1: sets them apart. And on top of that, you just
9:52
Speaker 1: you have so many amazing, amazing stories in here with
9:58
Speaker 1: just this why range of bookstores, some that specialize in
10:04
Speaker 1: maybe like cookbooks or children's literature or a sci fi
10:09
Speaker 1: book vending machine. How did you choose? How did you
10:14
Speaker 1: choose these stores?
10:18
Speaker 4: Yeah?
10:18
Speaker 2: That was a doozy I think when I proposed the book,
10:22
Speaker 2: I was like.
10:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't have like twenty four stores. It'll be cool.
10:25
Speaker 2: And then of course, once you go down the rabbit
10:27
Speaker 2: hole of actually doing the research, so many more stores
10:30
Speaker 2: make it into the book, But I really focused on
10:33
Speaker 2: that definition of specializing in black publications, and I think
10:39
Speaker 2: as a journalist a lot of it is access. So
10:41
Speaker 2: who did I have access to, who was a cooperative source,
10:45
Speaker 2: who showed up to the interviews, things like that on
10:50
Speaker 2: a practical level, and then yeah, like trying to make
10:54
Speaker 2: an even distribution of regions, but then also including like
10:58
Speaker 2: you said, those specialty store to show the different ways
11:01
Speaker 2: that black booksellers show up and you know, showcase their
11:06
Speaker 2: interest through their inventory. I thought would be really cool.
11:10
Speaker 5: It's so good And when I'm reading through this, they're
11:14
Speaker 5: like you had specialized bookstores and one it says to
11:17
Speaker 5: the black girls, specifically to the black girls, and it
11:20
Speaker 5: was such an amazing like ideal, Like, yes, this is
11:23
Speaker 5: something that is set up for a welcome community where
11:26
Speaker 5: a lot of times they may not feel like they
11:29
Speaker 5: are welcome. Like we talk about women in stem and
11:31
Speaker 5: all the time, and like how long it took in
11:33
Speaker 5: general to feel like they could be a part of
11:35
Speaker 5: that industry or that community in general. But with all
11:38
Speaker 5: of that, some of these stories are so great and
11:42
Speaker 5: based around black women. Can you share one with us
11:45
Speaker 5: or something that listeners can look forward to specifically, I
11:48
Speaker 5: kind of gave you one away.
11:49
Speaker 2: I know, Yeah, the one you're referencing is called Adana.
11:53
Speaker 2: It's in Bedstye in New York, and her story is
11:57
Speaker 2: really cool. I liked it because it was eclectic. She
12:01
Speaker 2: had her father's like old vinyls. I was like, oh,
12:04
Speaker 2: could I have that? She's like, girl, no, this my
12:05
Speaker 2: day is like stop playing. But she has like really
12:09
Speaker 2: cool events there. They do like a lot of like
12:13
Speaker 2: things with plants and just like very hands on like
12:18
Speaker 2: sewing things and like crafty things, which I think, like
12:21
Speaker 2: is really cool because like sometimes when you're like in adulthood,
12:24
Speaker 2: you're like over the club, like let's just hang out
12:27
Speaker 2: at the bookstore and have a good time and meet friends.
12:30
Speaker 2: And while I was there, I could see people like
12:33
Speaker 2: becoming friends, like sharing their birth charts and stuff.
12:35
Speaker 4: I was like, this is so girly. But I loved
12:37
Speaker 4: it because it's like.
12:39
Speaker 2: That's what that's who it was meant for, and I
12:40
Speaker 2: could see it happening in real time. Another one that
12:43
Speaker 2: I thought was really fun was the sci fi book
12:45
Speaker 2: vending machine, which is just such a great idea, especially
12:49
Speaker 2: with like rent being so high and not every community has.
12:53
Speaker 4: A brick and mortar bookstore.
12:55
Speaker 2: But being able to be able to provide books that
12:58
Speaker 2: are really curated and thoughtful in a small space I
13:02
Speaker 2: think is really cool. And like they're into sci fi,
13:04
Speaker 2: it gives a little bit of sci fi energy having
13:06
Speaker 2: a book vending machine there too. So those are two
13:09
Speaker 2: that I think readers will really enjoy.
13:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not gonna lie.
13:12
Speaker 5: I thought about Annie in that moment because I was like,
13:15
Speaker 5: she would love this.
13:17
Speaker 3: I do the sci fi.
13:18
Speaker 5: Vending machines coming in using a machine to get to it. Anyway,
13:23
Speaker 5: I was having a fun time reading through these. These
13:25
Speaker 5: are such an amazing inventive like innovative ideas and distributing
13:29
Speaker 5: books because it needs more and more of these things.
13:32
Speaker 5: And with that, like as I'm looking through all of
13:34
Speaker 5: the pictures, first of all, I'm like, I don't know why.
13:37
Speaker 5: Immediately the smell of an old bookstore hit me the
13:40
Speaker 5: minute I opened up your book, Like look through your book,
13:42
Speaker 5: I was like, wow, I can smell it. I can
13:45
Speaker 5: fill the arthiness when you walk into the comforting areas
13:49
Speaker 5: with all the books surrounding you.
13:50
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna lie.
13:51
Speaker 5: It's one of my favorite things to do is to
13:52
Speaker 5: peruse all the titles and just smell the old books.
13:55
Speaker 5: There's something to it. And with that, I know that's
13:58
Speaker 5: something that you've been complimented. And like this book has
14:01
Speaker 5: already been celebrated because of these beautiful images. Can you
14:04
Speaker 5: talk about all these pictures that you came and then
14:08
Speaker 5: of course the ending picture like with you with all
14:10
Speaker 5: the different people that you've met throughout your tour.
14:13
Speaker 3: Was so cool. But anyway, can you talk about the
14:15
Speaker 3: images in your book?
14:17
Speaker 4: Yeah?
14:17
Speaker 2: I mean when I set out to write Pros, I
14:18
Speaker 2: wanted it to feel like a bookstore. So that's a
14:21
Speaker 2: very high compliment you just gave me. But like when
14:23
Speaker 2: you go into a bookstore, you don't just hear from
14:26
Speaker 2: one person, you don't just see one thing.
14:28
Speaker 4: So I wanted to be.
14:29
Speaker 2: Filled with multiple voices, multiple genres, and multimedia because I
14:34
Speaker 2: wanted people to feel like they were in a black
14:36
Speaker 2: bookstore while reading it and to understand that comfort. So
14:40
Speaker 2: even in the some of the bookstores that don't exist,
14:44
Speaker 2: I'm always asking them like, what did it smell?
14:45
Speaker 4: Like? What were y'all saying? What were y'all talking about?
14:48
Speaker 4: Was there a fried chicken place there? Did the smell
14:51
Speaker 4: come in?
14:51
Speaker 2: Like I was really trying to capture what it felt
14:53
Speaker 2: to be in those stores, and that was the goal
14:56
Speaker 2: from the beginning. I was lucky enough to be able
14:59
Speaker 2: to go into archives and find old pictures from the
15:02
Speaker 2: stories that don't exist, or like I said, some people
15:05
Speaker 2: would just offer up their pictures. There's a lot of ephemera,
15:08
Speaker 2: so you see like the flyers and the brochures that
15:10
Speaker 2: people were putting out for their bookstores and different events
15:13
Speaker 2: that were going on at the time. But yeah, I
15:15
Speaker 2: wanted it to be very interactive and something that you
15:18
Speaker 2: can come back to multiple times and find something new
15:20
Speaker 2: each time.
15:32
Speaker 5: I will say also, one of the things that really
15:34
Speaker 5: permeated throughout these pictures is just the joy. There was
15:38
Speaker 5: so much joy in having people celebrate their own books
15:42
Speaker 5: and the releases, or sitting with people that they love
15:45
Speaker 5: the picture specifically, I think it's like Rosa Defie, yes,
15:49
Speaker 5: and like all the people that came through her path
15:51
Speaker 5: and like her smile. There was so much joy in
15:54
Speaker 5: these images, and you did such a fantastic job and
15:57
Speaker 5: relaying their stories, and I know you had like interviewed
16:00
Speaker 5: a lot of them. Was that something important that you
16:02
Speaker 5: wanted to show in showcase.
16:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to capture everyone's personality and I think
16:08
Speaker 2: oftentimes those black stories sometimes we only get shined when
16:11
Speaker 2: something's like very terrible is going on. And I was like,
16:14
Speaker 2: this isn't that, Like this is a celebration, and you know,
16:19
Speaker 2: being in the community, I understand that, like, guess, bad
16:23
Speaker 2: things do happen, but like we're not always like in turmoil.
16:27
Speaker 2: We do have joy. We are celebrating, we're with our
16:29
Speaker 2: friends and family, you know, we're listening to future and
16:33
Speaker 2: just hanging out sometimes. And that's what I wanted to
16:36
Speaker 2: capture with those interviews.
16:40
Speaker 3: Well done, thank you.
16:42
Speaker 1: Yes, it definitely gives the vibe of I've stepped into
16:48
Speaker 1: a bookstore, which is really awesome because Samantha and I
16:53
Speaker 1: we like when we travel together, we always go to
16:55
Speaker 1: bookstores and we go to libraries. It's just we love it.
17:04
Speaker 1: So this is this is such a great a great concept,
17:08
Speaker 1: and it's something Yeah, I think a lot of people
17:11
Speaker 1: don't know about. One of the things you talk about
17:14
Speaker 1: in here, and people you interviewed talked about a lot,
17:19
Speaker 1: is that there's a lot of discussion around knowledge being power,
17:24
Speaker 1: the power of learning, the power of teaching that knowledge
17:29
Speaker 1: Can you expound on that a little bit.
17:32
Speaker 4: Yeah.
17:33
Speaker 2: In the introduction, which was written by Nikki Giovanni, she says,
17:39
Speaker 2: pro to the people reminds us that black is beautiful,
17:42
Speaker 2: but knowledge is power, and that is a quote from
17:45
Speaker 2: one of the pre eminent booksellers, Lewis Michau. And I
17:49
Speaker 2: think what we're getting at is that black books, but
17:55
Speaker 2: books in general, are very liberating. And in this country,
18:01
Speaker 2: the project of black reading, black writing, black publishing, there's
18:06
Speaker 2: always been tension there. It was illegal for us to
18:10
Speaker 2: read when we were enslaved here, and now you.
18:14
Speaker 4: See book bands.
18:17
Speaker 2: Disproportionately affecting black books, and there's something there where they
18:21
Speaker 2: attack the whole project of black thought. And so I
18:25
Speaker 2: think as black people, we know the importance of books
18:27
Speaker 2: and reading and knowledge and passing that down, and we
18:30
Speaker 2: understand if we don't keep that tradition going, what could
18:32
Speaker 2: happen and what those who do not want to see
18:36
Speaker 2: us flourish would like to happen. And I think that's
18:41
Speaker 2: a trend or a through line that you see from
18:44
Speaker 2: the eighteen thirties with David Ruggles as the first black
18:49
Speaker 2: bookstore owner to current day.
18:51
Speaker 1: Yes, well, speaking of current day, this is jumping ahead
18:56
Speaker 1: a bit in our outline of question, but the book
19:00
Speaker 1: book does have a lot of discussion as well about
19:03
Speaker 1: the importance of preserving history. And as you said, right
19:10
Speaker 1: now we're seeing such an active pushback on teaching black
19:16
Speaker 1: history and schools. We're seeing so many book bands, So
19:21
Speaker 1: can you speak to that and why it's this preserving
19:27
Speaker 1: of history and these the black book stores that are
19:30
Speaker 1: doing it is so vital right now?
19:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the story of the black
19:37
Speaker 2: book story is unfolding in past and present tense, like
19:41
Speaker 2: with the book showing the book stories that no longer
19:43
Speaker 2: exist in conversation with those that do. It's the same
19:47
Speaker 2: with our history. And if you don't know what happened
19:51
Speaker 2: before and what the state or the powers that be
19:56
Speaker 2: did to try to stop the people that came before us,
19:59
Speaker 2: you can think like, oh wow, this is so bad,
20:01
Speaker 2: like no one's ever gone through this, Like what are
20:04
Speaker 2: we going to do? But the lessons are right there,
20:07
Speaker 2: Like book bands aren't new. Really, they're kind of tame
20:10
Speaker 2: compared to what you know, the FBI was doing before.
20:13
Speaker 2: There's so many instances of black bookstores being.
20:18
Speaker 4: Firebombed and flooded.
20:20
Speaker 2: Black booksellers have been arrested, framed, and you know there's
20:25
Speaker 2: something too. Knowing that you as a black person reading
20:30
Speaker 2: or selling books is so threatening and you think, what
20:33
Speaker 2: are in these books that they don't want us to read?
20:35
Speaker 4: And to me makes me want to read them more.
20:36
Speaker 4: It makes me want to know more.
20:38
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's been happening, and it's still happening unfortunately,
20:41
Speaker 2: but we are our elders and our ancestors have shown
20:44
Speaker 2: us what we need to do.
20:46
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the like good news bad news situation of
20:49
Speaker 5: like we've seen this before. It's been bad, but we
20:51
Speaker 5: know we can do this because we have survived this
20:54
Speaker 5: and we being so many marginalized people, but specifically of
20:58
Speaker 5: the black community, and it's kind of and I've seen
21:01
Speaker 5: it in the black community here in Atlanta and where
21:04
Speaker 5: they're just like, yeah, it's been happening. Where have you been,
21:07
Speaker 5: like to the rest of the community and be like,
21:09
Speaker 5: we've been doing the work. Now you're just noticing it.
21:12
Speaker 5: And it's a reminder and that both of these things
21:15
Speaker 5: is why not only do the black community and your
21:19
Speaker 5: book and so much more that celebrate them pushing back
21:23
Speaker 5: And it's to that point of understanding that part of
21:27
Speaker 5: the rebellion is celebrating and making sure that we are
21:30
Speaker 5: still acknowledging what is happening and how that that you exist,
21:35
Speaker 5: we as a system exist and will not be tied
21:39
Speaker 5: down or quiet. And I love that that's what this
21:42
Speaker 5: book seems to represent. It's such a perfect timing and
21:45
Speaker 5: bringing this type of joy but understanding and power of learning,
21:50
Speaker 5: and the fact that you're giving us an amazing list
21:54
Speaker 5: because I know you talked about so many of them,
21:55
Speaker 5: but then in the later part of the book you
21:57
Speaker 5: give even more. You're like, oh, yeah, only about these things,
22:01
Speaker 5: these stores, but there's so much more, and that's powerful
22:03
Speaker 5: in itself.
22:05
Speaker 4: Yeah.
22:05
Speaker 2: I think being able to have a record of what
22:08
Speaker 2: has been done is really cool. Even some of the
22:11
Speaker 2: bookstores that I have full profiles of have closed since
22:16
Speaker 2: my reporting. But it's like, this is a snapshot of
22:19
Speaker 2: what was going on during this time. This is what
22:21
Speaker 2: we were thinking, this is what we are doing. And
22:24
Speaker 2: then having the list in the back, I thought was
22:25
Speaker 2: important to show the ones that are going on now,
22:29
Speaker 2: like I called it, like more to explore, and then
22:31
Speaker 2: the ones that have closed, the list of those to
22:33
Speaker 2: say like we were here, we did this this was
22:36
Speaker 2: the project that all of these stores and all these
22:37
Speaker 2: people were a part of.
22:40
Speaker 4: And the way the internet is going.
22:42
Speaker 2: Out, how they're just a racing stuff left and right,
22:44
Speaker 2: Like we need something printed and tangible so we can
22:48
Speaker 2: have that.
22:49
Speaker 3: Yes, and this is such a great asset.
22:53
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, Well I know you've been you've been talking
22:58
Speaker 1: about this throughout, But why do you think that it
23:07
Speaker 1: is so important that we do keep this history? Why
23:12
Speaker 1: is it Why are black bookstores in black libraries so important?
23:18
Speaker 4: Yeah?
23:18
Speaker 2: I mean, as I said, they hold our histories and
23:21
Speaker 2: they deserve for their histories to be told. They've done
23:25
Speaker 2: so much in each movement in the United States that
23:29
Speaker 2: have involved black people, and they're still out here doing
23:32
Speaker 2: a lot, a lot of work. Many of the booksellers
23:37
Speaker 2: have printing presses where they're putting out information themselves. That
23:41
Speaker 2: was something that I saw as a trend between like
23:44
Speaker 2: the sixties and nineties that that was really important to people.
23:48
Speaker 2: And I think that kind of is what pros is about,
23:51
Speaker 2: like putting out your own story. I was very lucky
23:54
Speaker 2: that people trusted me to tell this story, but I
23:57
Speaker 2: do think it.
23:58
Speaker 4: Came about because of like who I am.
24:00
Speaker 2: I'm a black bookseller, and I'm telling the story of
24:03
Speaker 2: black booksellers. And I think it's important to tell your
24:06
Speaker 2: own story and tell it as authentic as possible, and
24:10
Speaker 2: like you said, like capturing the full breath of it,
24:12
Speaker 2: like not just the pain, but also celebrating that joy
24:16
Speaker 2: as well.
24:18
Speaker 3: I love that.
24:18
Speaker 5: And just because we have to ask, I think we
24:21
Speaker 5: talked about this a little last time you were on
24:23
Speaker 5: about the book writing process in general.
24:27
Speaker 3: How was that for you?
24:29
Speaker 5: I know you weres a different because you actually were
24:30
Speaker 5: able to be more interactive and traveling, but that could
24:33
Speaker 5: also be more.
24:33
Speaker 3: Stressful and try to do that I was the writing
24:36
Speaker 3: process for you?
24:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I have, of course not written anything
24:41
Speaker 2: like this before. It was a lot of research. I
24:44
Speaker 2: think before my writing had been kind of like more
24:46
Speaker 2: force person, and I tried to keep myself as out
24:49
Speaker 2: of it as possible. I like peek in a little
24:52
Speaker 2: bit at some point with booksellers that I got like
24:56
Speaker 2: super close with, but that was different. And then also
24:59
Speaker 2: I had contributors who are in the book, who wrote
25:03
Speaker 2: essays and poems, and so that was a new experience
25:07
Speaker 2: of being an editor while I'm being a writer too
25:09
Speaker 2: and kind of walking them through what I know will
25:12
Speaker 2: be the end result, because there isn't There hasn't been
25:14
Speaker 2: a book like this before. So telling people like, yeah,
25:16
Speaker 2: I'm doing anthology on black bookstores, and I kind of
25:20
Speaker 2: have the vision in my head, but trying to get
25:21
Speaker 2: them to the point where their piece will fit into
25:24
Speaker 2: that seamlessly was a different experience. But I think it
25:28
Speaker 2: worked out so well. I'm so happy with all the contributors.
25:31
Speaker 2: They're so smart. I have such deep relationships to these bookstores.
25:36
Speaker 2: We have people who are biographers of certain booksellers, people
25:40
Speaker 2: who were managers past managers of the bookstores, so they
25:44
Speaker 2: really have like these deep relationships, and I think it
25:46
Speaker 2: shines through too.
25:48
Speaker 5: No, you did an amazing job incorporating different styles into
25:51
Speaker 5: one book. Like you're having an interview, then you were
25:54
Speaker 5: having an essay, and you were having the poetry. I
25:56
Speaker 5: was like wow, And then you're doing the excerpts and
25:58
Speaker 5: the pictures of like just trying to do it all,
26:00
Speaker 5: fitting all that in the one book, and kudos it
26:05
Speaker 5: looks amazing.
26:06
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm gonna be Lauren Hill, do my
26:09
Speaker 2: do my big one on my first one and be out.
26:14
Speaker 3: I have a feeling this is not going to be
26:15
Speaker 3: the only one. This is so good.
26:18
Speaker 4: That's what some people are saying. I don't know, I
26:21
Speaker 4: don't know, just just.
26:23
Speaker 3: Putting it out there.
26:24
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna you know, that's my prediction, but I'm
26:26
Speaker 5: just gonna.
26:29
Speaker 4: Well.
26:29
Speaker 1: I also love that so much too, because it does
26:31
Speaker 1: go back to the you know, making it feel like
26:34
Speaker 1: you're in a bookstore. Here's all these different types of
26:39
Speaker 1: writing you can find. Yeah, it was just great because
26:42
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yes, I want to go I
26:45
Speaker 1: maybe want to go read a bunch of books, like
26:47
Speaker 1: check out a bunch of books or something, the whole bookstore. Yes.
26:51
Speaker 4: Yeah.
26:51
Speaker 2: Even some of the contributors like they don't agree with
26:54
Speaker 2: each other. And I like that too, because you go
26:57
Speaker 2: into a bookstore, there's going to be a book that says, like,
26:59
Speaker 2: this guy is orange, and that'skind of one. There's going
27:01
Speaker 2: to be one that says the sky is blue, and
27:02
Speaker 2: you get to read both and decide for yourself what
27:04
Speaker 2: color is the sky. So there's different different opinions, a
27:10
Speaker 2: diversity of thought throughout, and I think someone will find
27:14
Speaker 2: something that really speaks to them throughout the book.
27:27
Speaker 1: One of the like Nerdier points I latched onto because yes,
27:32
Speaker 1: Samantha and I have gone through the book writing process.
27:36
Speaker 1: Is that there was a discussion about kind of the
27:38
Speaker 1: whole ecosystem of books, about like the publisher, the owner,
27:46
Speaker 1: the libraries, the authors, and how these all these pieces
27:50
Speaker 1: work together are don't and how people view how it
27:54
Speaker 1: should work or how it should look versus how it does.
27:58
Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts about that?
28:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, So a lot of the booksellers, I'd say, in
28:04
Speaker 2: like the sixties, we're also doing publishing, and then I
28:09
Speaker 2: think a little bit after that, the book signing, kind
28:12
Speaker 2: of author celebrity of it all came together. So it's
28:15
Speaker 2: interesting to see the different ways it has evolved. So
28:19
Speaker 2: I'm talking to a bookseller who had a store in
28:21
Speaker 2: the sixties. I was like, oh, what were your author events?
28:23
Speaker 2: Like it's like author events, we didn't do that type
28:26
Speaker 2: of stuff. We were selling books and publishing books. And
28:28
Speaker 2: then I'm talking to someone in the nineties. They're like, yeah,
28:30
Speaker 2: Terry McMillan saved our store, you know, Waiting to Excel.
28:34
Speaker 2: We sold a million copies of that.
28:35
Speaker 4: It was great.
28:36
Speaker 2: And so it's like kind of seeing those trends and
28:38
Speaker 2: kind of seeing things that you might take for granted, like,
28:40
Speaker 2: oh yeah, of course these bookstores are doing author events
28:44
Speaker 2: multiple times a week, but like that hasn't always been
28:46
Speaker 2: the case. Seeing the importance people put on publishing your
28:50
Speaker 2: own work and like having a press and being able
28:53
Speaker 2: to say what you want to say and not having
28:54
Speaker 2: to deal with like the big publishing houses was something
28:58
Speaker 2: that I saw that people saw to be important. And
29:02
Speaker 2: now you know, people are like fighting against Amazon, which
29:04
Speaker 2: hasn't always been the case in the bookselling world, and
29:07
Speaker 2: like now there's bookshop that's trying to you know, help
29:10
Speaker 2: out with the indie booksellers and go against Amazon too,
29:16
Speaker 2: So it's a lot of moving parts and they're all
29:19
Speaker 2: working together or against each other. But yeah, we touch
29:23
Speaker 2: on all of that in pros. But yeah, it's like
29:25
Speaker 2: a little like insider thing. If you've been in the
29:28
Speaker 2: book industry, you're like, oh, yeah, I know about that.
29:32
Speaker 5: I love that You're gonna get the book world that
29:34
Speaker 5: you never knew what existed exactly, the little beef that's
29:38
Speaker 5: happening behind the scenes. You're like, well, I didn't think
29:40
Speaker 5: about that. You forget about the fact that there was
29:43
Speaker 5: like whole press like they were releasing their own books
29:46
Speaker 5: and like the level of independent authors who will trying
29:49
Speaker 5: to just get their pamphlet out there or like the
29:51
Speaker 5: novella's out there to make a point. So it's really
29:55
Speaker 5: interesting to think on that, especially when you go through
29:58
Speaker 5: the historical context of books stores and publishing books and
30:01
Speaker 5: then like fighting in civil rights eras and what that
30:04
Speaker 5: looks like, and then what that looks like for today
30:07
Speaker 5: in the midst of like literal attack on the black
30:10
Speaker 5: community by saying that black history should not exist because
30:13
Speaker 5: it makes us sad. It's just that's a whole different conversation.
30:18
Speaker 5: But the importance of trying to support those businesses. And
30:22
Speaker 5: I know this seems like an obvious question, but with
30:26
Speaker 5: everything outside of just buying from these independent bookstores and
30:29
Speaker 5: supporting these bookstores, what can we, as those that would
30:33
Speaker 5: like to be seen as allies, what can we do
30:36
Speaker 5: to make sure that we are supporting these businesses if
30:40
Speaker 5: it's not just by visiting them.
30:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one way that I say it would
30:46
Speaker 2: be like the most sustainable is to make them a
30:48
Speaker 2: part of your normal life, Like not just like, oh,
30:51
Speaker 2: like this really popular books coming out out, buy it
30:53
Speaker 2: from a black bookstore, which is great, But like I said,
30:55
Speaker 2: they're doing these events every week. They have reading circles.
31:00
Speaker 2: You know, they're bringing in authors, they're having writing salons,
31:03
Speaker 2: so kind of making it a part of your life
31:06
Speaker 2: in a way that fits naturally, so you don't feel like, oh,
31:09
Speaker 2: I'm doing like this charitable thing, Like no, I'm getting
31:11
Speaker 2: something out of it, the bookstores getting something out of it.
31:13
Speaker 2: I'm really embedding into my community, I think is the
31:16
Speaker 2: best way to do it. And even like going back
31:21
Speaker 2: to like the book ecosystem. One thing that I thought
31:24
Speaker 2: was interesting was even in the sixties, the big box
31:28
Speaker 2: stores were stealing from the black bookstores. They would like
31:30
Speaker 2: go in, write down what they had, and then there'd
31:33
Speaker 2: be a display of flip black books there. So kind
31:36
Speaker 2: of being cognizant of what these big box stores and
31:40
Speaker 2: Amazon are doing, because you kind of might think like, oh,
31:43
Speaker 2: the big guys aren't even paying attention to the little guys.
31:45
Speaker 2: But the little guys are, you know, on the ground,
31:47
Speaker 2: they know the community and can really curate, and then
31:50
Speaker 2: you know, the big bohemos can just like take, take
31:53
Speaker 2: take and scale it to a way that makes it
31:55
Speaker 2: so that the indis can't compete.
31:58
Speaker 4: So being like a little bit more.
31:59
Speaker 2: Aware of how you're supporting people and their business practices.
32:06
Speaker 1: Well, on top of that, is there something that, as
32:10
Speaker 1: you know, you're closing this chapter of this book is
32:14
Speaker 1: coming out, is there something that you're really hopeful for
32:20
Speaker 1: in terms of black bookstores and or trends that you're
32:26
Speaker 1: hoping will come about.
32:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I hope black bookstores. I would like
32:32
Speaker 2: to see them on every corner. They're a lot in
32:36
Speaker 2: the book, but when you like travel around, you know,
32:40
Speaker 2: they're kind of few and far between, and I think
32:43
Speaker 2: they should be there, should be more, they should be supported.
32:47
Speaker 2: And I would love to see someone, you know, write
32:50
Speaker 2: another book about black bookstores and include the ones that
32:53
Speaker 2: weren't included, and like continue this work of celebrating the
32:56
Speaker 2: black bookstore as an institution and you know, highlighting what
32:59
Speaker 2: we done in the community.
33:01
Speaker 4: That would be something that I think is really nice.
33:04
Speaker 1: Yes. Absolutely. And for you yourself, do you have any projects
33:10
Speaker 1: on the horizon that you're excited about.
33:13
Speaker 4: Well, I'm about to go on tour, so that is
33:16
Speaker 4: my next project.
33:18
Speaker 2: Kicking it off in Atlanta at the Georgia Center for
33:22
Speaker 2: the Book on the eighth, So maybe I'll see you
33:25
Speaker 2: all there.
33:26
Speaker 1: All right, I'm running down the eighth of April.
33:28
Speaker 2: Eighth of April, Georgia Center for the book, seven pm. Yeah,
33:33
Speaker 2: and I'll be in around the city. I'll be in Washington,
33:36
Speaker 2: d C. Philadelphia, and New York. So focusing on that
33:40
Speaker 2: and then we'll see what happens from there.
33:42
Speaker 1: Yes, so well you might want to take a break
33:47
Speaker 1: after that, but that sounds amazing.
33:52
Speaker 4: I see a break in my future. Yes, with you.
33:56
Speaker 5: Being yeah, you and your mom working like book yourself.
34:00
Speaker 5: What did your mom say about this book?
34:02
Speaker 1: I need to know.
34:03
Speaker 3: Has she read it?
34:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's read it. She got to see it early.
34:08
Speaker 2: And because like when I was writing it, I would
34:10
Speaker 2: just like go to the library, I would like write
34:13
Speaker 2: it longhand and like a notebook, and people were just like,
34:16
Speaker 2: what are you doing, Like you're always not like yeah,
34:20
Speaker 2: doing something like super secret. And then she saw it.
34:23
Speaker 2: She's like, oh, this is what you've been doing. Like
34:26
Speaker 2: this is so nice. And I don't know if y'all notice,
34:29
Speaker 2: but like in some parts of the book, you'll see
34:32
Speaker 2: like handwriting that's actually my mom's handwriting. So yeah, I
34:37
Speaker 2: love her handwriting. So I was like, let me get
34:39
Speaker 2: you to write these pull quotes and the dedication, so
34:43
Speaker 2: having a little piece of her in there too. It
34:45
Speaker 2: has been fun. But yeah, she loves it. She's so excited.
34:49
Speaker 2: She was like, you did it. I'm so proud of you.
34:52
Speaker 4: Like this is big. It's big, Katie.
34:55
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I'm not gonna lie. Having her being
34:57
Speaker 5: a part of that book, it just makes me so
34:59
Speaker 5: emotional for you that it's amazing and I love that,
35:02
Speaker 5: like the bond between you and that you have that
35:05
Speaker 5: in your first book as like a memento for both
35:08
Speaker 5: of you.
35:08
Speaker 3: That's beautiful.
35:10
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you, well, thank you so much Katie for
35:18
Speaker 1: joining us today, for coming back on. We would love
35:21
Speaker 1: to have you anytime. Congrats again about the book. Where
35:26
Speaker 1: can the good listeners find you?
35:29
Speaker 2: They can find me on Instagram. I'm at good books
35:32
Speaker 2: atl on Instagram. And if you want to keep up
35:35
Speaker 2: with the book, it's prostothpeople dot com.
35:38
Speaker 1: Yes, and it comes out April eighth, correct.
35:41
Speaker 2: April eighth. There is a pre order incentive and you
35:44
Speaker 2: get a cute little lapel pin that mimics the book,
35:48
Speaker 2: but you got to get it in before April eighth.
35:51
Speaker 1: Okay, I love I love a good incentive. Well, thank you,
35:59
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you so much, Katie. And listeners. Go
36:03
Speaker 1: check out the book. It is amazing. Thank you and
36:07
Speaker 1: if you would like to contact us you can. You
36:09
Speaker 1: can email us at Hello, at Stuff Whenever Told You
36:11
Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Blue Sky at
36:12
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or Instagram and TikTok and Stuff We
36:15
Speaker 1: Never Told You were also on YouTube. We have tea
36:17
Speaker 1: public store, and we have a book you can get
36:18
Speaker 1: wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to our
36:20
Speaker 1: super producer Christina and executive producer Maya and your contributor Joey.
36:23
Speaker 5: Thank you.
36:24
Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You
36:26
Speaker 1: the production of My Heart Radio. For more podcast from
36:27
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,
36:29
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast wherever you listen to your favorite ship