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HIDEOUS CRIMES: DELPHI CHILD KILLER RICHARD ALLEN TO WALK FREE? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, hideous crimes the convicted Delphi
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Speaker 1: child killer Richard Allen to walk free. Is that even possible?
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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for
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Speaker 1: being with us.
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Speaker 2: We also know by three o'clock nobody's hearing them. They're
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Speaker 2: nobody's screaming, nobody's running, nobody's calling on their phones. Again,
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Speaker 2: this was a very fast deal. And y'all here's the reality.
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Speaker 2: Most children that are going to be murdered or murdered
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Speaker 2: in the first three hours.
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Speaker 3: That's right.
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Speaker 1: Convicted child killer A jury said he murdered Abby and Libby,
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Speaker 1: their bodies found practically drained of blood in a remote
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Speaker 1: area a treussel Bridge. He was convicted, and now he
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Speaker 1: is back in court citing new evidence that demands a
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Speaker 1: new trial.
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Speaker 3: How is this possible?
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Speaker 1: Well, the first thing he is claiming is all about
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Speaker 1: a guy named Ron Logan.
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Speaker 4: Listen, we're other names mentioned throughout this long period of
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Speaker 4: time before anyone was in custody, Daniel Nations, Paul Ederging, Shadowell,
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Speaker 4: Keeping Klein, Tony Klein, and of course Ron Logan. There
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Speaker 4: were two searches of his property too, and he was
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Speaker 4: never arrested or charged with the crime.
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Speaker 1: Out of all the suspects, the pois pursons of interest
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Speaker 1: that police sheriffs investigated. What's different about Ron Logan? And
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Speaker 1: now Richard Allen comes into court with his fleet of
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Speaker 1: lawyers demanding to be sent free in the alternative any
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Speaker 1: trial because of Ron Logan and three other points?
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Speaker 3: So what's so special about Ron Logan? Listen.
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Speaker 5: Tommie Dillman is the ex girlfriend of Ron Logan. Their
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Speaker 5: six year relationship had come to an end by the
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Speaker 5: time of the Delphi murders. Dilman believes ron Logan is
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Speaker 5: the killer. She says the voice on the tape saying
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Speaker 5: down the Hill is absolutely him. She also claims that
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Speaker 5: Logan was violent and when she refused him sex one night,
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Speaker 5: he hit her with a wrench, causing seven stitches.
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Speaker 6: Their bodies were found on his property, his house, only
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Speaker 6: fourteen hundred feet away from where the girls were discovered.
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Speaker 6: Logan matched to the appearance of the man in the
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Speaker 6: blue jacket walking on the bridge that was captured in
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Speaker 6: snapchat footage taken by the girls just before they disappeared.
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Speaker 6: Ron Logan was questioned by detectives at length, but police
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Speaker 6: let him go and moved on to other potential suspects.
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Speaker 1: That's not all The defense is claiming that Ron Logan
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Speaker 1: confessed to the murders of Abby and Libby.
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Speaker 3: This is nothing new, listen.
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Speaker 7: Ron Logan confesses to fellow inmate Ricky Davis that he
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Speaker 7: was walking and talking with the girls about knowing one
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Speaker 7: of their fathers. When one of the girls wanted to
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Speaker 7: turn around. Logan grabs Abby's shoulder, causing Libby to freak out,
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Speaker 7: and one of the girls says something about calling the police.
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Speaker 7: Logan asked if they want to see his animals, including horses,
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Speaker 7: and Abby wanted to go. Libby did not. This led
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Speaker 7: to a scuffle and Logan got hit in the nose,
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Speaker 7: and he pulled out a box cutter and attacked Libby,
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Speaker 7: cutting her throat. Logan said he took Abby somewhere and
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Speaker 7: eventually cut her neck too.
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Speaker 8: Hours after killing the girls, he came back because he
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Speaker 8: wanted to move Libby to an area where she wouldn't
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Speaker 8: be found. He says he burned his clothes in a
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Speaker 8: burn pit with boots, gloves, and a bag, but feared
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Speaker 8: drops of blood from his nose may have ended up
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Speaker 8: on the girl's.
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Speaker 1: Clothes, lots of inconsistencies with ron Logan's so called jailhouse
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Speaker 1: confession with the facts as we know them, and I'm
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Speaker 1: talking about forensic evidence straight out to Susan Hendricks, joining
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Speaker 1: US investigative journalist and author of Down the Hill, My
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Speaker 1: Descent into the double murder in Delphi. She was there
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Speaker 1: every single day of testimony, Susan Hendrix. Now Richard Allen's defense,
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Speaker 1: his fleet of defense attorney's demand freedom or a new
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Speaker 1: trial based on four points, the first being ron Logan.
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Speaker 3: What happened with ron Logan?
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Speaker 1: Who is this guy? And why do we care? We
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Speaker 1: knew about ron Logan at the get go.
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Speaker 9: He was ruled out absolutely, Nancy, it's good to see you.
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Speaker 9: And last night I spoke to at the time detective
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Speaker 9: who is a big part of this, Jerry Holman, and
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Speaker 9: he said to me, look, Susan, we investigated ron Logan excessively,
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Speaker 9: meaning two searches of the property. But what is different here?
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Speaker 9: Soon after the murders, allegedly ron Logan confess. That's what
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Speaker 9: the defense attorneys are saying, confessed to someone he was
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Speaker 9: in jail with. He was in jail for four plus
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Speaker 9: months because he violated probation. And I remember he left
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Speaker 9: court and said next time, I won't have girls murdered
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Speaker 9: on my property, Ron Logan. But he was investigated. He
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Speaker 9: did not do this. The investigators looked into him. Of
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Speaker 9: course it was on his property. But I go back
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Speaker 9: Nancy to Libby's phone when Abby says, we heard it
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Speaker 9: in court, don't leave me up here? Well, then when
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Speaker 9: did she talk about the horses after that? I believe
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Speaker 9: that evidence on Libby's phone makes it Richard Allen and
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Speaker 9: him putting himself there.
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Speaker 3: Okay, repeat very slowly what you just said.
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Speaker 9: It was Libby's phone, he put himself there, and it
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Speaker 9: lines up with who was on Libby's phone, bridge guy?
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Speaker 9: And we saw it in court. And what we did
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Speaker 9: see and was a man approaching on the bridge, coming
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Speaker 9: up behind Abby. And she says, and you could hear
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Speaker 9: it on Libby's cell phone, don't leave me here, and
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Speaker 9: then you see them you hear the voice.
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Speaker 3: Fine, maybe true, Susan Hendricks. In fact, all of that
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Speaker 3: is true.
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Speaker 1: However, the defense is claiming the guy on the bridge
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Speaker 1: is Ron Logan joining me. In addition to investigative reporter
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Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix, who literally has written the book. Cheryl McCollum
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Speaker 1: is with US Cold Case Research Institute, founder and star
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Speaker 1: of Zone seven podcast.
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Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum. We sat through testimony.
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Speaker 1: You have extensively investigated the scene. What do you make
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Speaker 1: of the claim that Ron Logan's confession should have come
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Speaker 1: in to evidence.
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Speaker 10: Number One, you're talking about a man that now cannot
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Speaker 10: defend himself and say whether or not he did or
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Speaker 10: did not make that claim. Number Two, Allen never said
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Speaker 10: he saw another man, not on the trail or the bridge,
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Speaker 10: So where was he that Alan himself would not have
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Speaker 10: seen it. Alan placed himself on the bridge at the
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Speaker 10: time the girls were there. He claimed he saw the
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Speaker 10: other witnesses that were young females. At no time did
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Speaker 10: he see anybody else that was a man.
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Speaker 1: To Susan Hendrix, ron Logan's confession did not come in
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Speaker 1: in front of that jury for many reasons.
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Speaker 3: Why.
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Speaker 9: Yeah, it was known. And that is one of the
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Speaker 9: questions that I asked now Lieutenant Jerry Holman last night
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Speaker 9: and said is this new? And he said no, they
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Speaker 9: both had it. They didn't bring it into evidence. And
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Speaker 9: he also stated, and this is key, that he failed
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Speaker 9: a polygraph. The prisoner who says, hey, ron Logan, and
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Speaker 9: it is specific. We heard it off the top of
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Speaker 9: the show. What allegedly ron Logan did well? He failed
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Speaker 9: that so and nothing ever tied him as Charyl'm.
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Speaker 1: Saying the inmate to whom Logan confessed failed a polly yes,
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Speaker 1: and Ron Logan's dead.
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Speaker 3: He can't be brought in. Okay. Joining me right now.
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Speaker 1: Is Greg Morse, partner at law firm King Morse, veteran
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Speaker 1: trial lawyer and author of the Untested on Amazon. Okay, Greg,
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Speaker 1: before you light into me with your defense theories, can
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Speaker 1: we just agree that the first thing you do when
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Speaker 1: you have an inmate claiming they have information, you find
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Speaker 1: out in many jurisdictions it's called hall Hll issue. Has
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Speaker 1: the inmate been offered a deal in exchange for the testimony,
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Speaker 1: such as a lighter sentence.
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Speaker 3: That's the first thing you look at, would you agree,
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Speaker 3: one hundred.
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Speaker 11: Percent, Nancy, That's the first thing you look at, because
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Speaker 11: jail house snitches are notoriously lack of credibility, and they're
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Speaker 11: generally looking for a deal. I have not seen any
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Speaker 11: information that this inmate was looking for a deal, but
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Speaker 11: my guess is he probably was.
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Speaker 1: I mean Greg, speaking just as a lawyer, not a
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Speaker 1: former prosecutor. Right now.
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Speaker 3: Of course, they're looking for a deal.
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Speaker 1: They're sitting in four walls the rest of their life
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Speaker 1: very often, and if they see a light at the
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Speaker 1: end of the tunnel, by snitching out or giving even
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Speaker 1: a fake statement, they'll do it to get out. Susan Handricks,
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Speaker 1: Did I hear you say. Let me make sure I
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Speaker 1: understand this that both sides had Ron Logan's confession.
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Speaker 3: Did the defense seek to enter it?
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Speaker 9: Well, I know he was on the witness list for
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Speaker 9: the hearing at the end of the summer, the preliminary
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Speaker 9: hearing to see if the defense could have a third
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Speaker 9: party defense. So he was on that witness list. He
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Speaker 9: could have been called, but he wasn't. It wasn't mentioned
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Speaker 9: they went with the o'ness theory. Now to me, in
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Speaker 9: my opinion, they want to go to the Ron Logan theory.
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Speaker 1: Now, okay, I'm going to get back to the odness theory.
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Speaker 1: Since it didn't come in, I'm not addressing it right
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Speaker 1: now and it's not being raised as new evidence. Okay,
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Speaker 1: Greg Morris, he needed the answer to that question before
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Speaker 1: I take out my guns and fire at you. The
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Speaker 1: defense is claiming this is newly discovered evidence.
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Speaker 3: It's not. They had Logan before he died.
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Speaker 1: They had Logan's fake confession before he died, and they
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Speaker 1: chose not to bring in Logan. They cannot complain about
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Speaker 1: a strategic maneuver they pulled during the trial. One, it's
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Speaker 1: not newly discovered evidence. Two, it was their decision not
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Speaker 1: to bring in the Logan confession.
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Speaker 3: That would have been I would have been running.
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Speaker 1: Across the courthouse steps in front of the jury, up
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Speaker 1: and down those steps. I took them many times with
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Speaker 1: Ron Logan's confession in my hand. They chose not to
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Speaker 1: use it and go with some cocamane odinism. You know
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Speaker 1: what odinism is, right, the Norse gods like they were
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Speaker 1: going to go with thor worshipers committed the murders as
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Speaker 1: part of some sacred ritual.
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Speaker 3: They chose that over logan insanity.
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Speaker 11: It is completely seems like a misstep from the defense
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Speaker 11: in the sense that you don't need Logan to testify
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Speaker 11: to get the fact that the police investigated him and
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Speaker 11: this person confessed. It goes in. It comes in under
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Speaker 11: the police's investigation and why they did what they did.
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Speaker 11: So I don't know why the defense left that out
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Speaker 11: and focused on a Norse god and ritualistic killings when
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Speaker 11: there was a lot of information that could have led
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Speaker 11: to this logan potentially or at least created as we
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Speaker 11: know reasonable doubt. However, you can't look at these issues
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Speaker 11: in a vacuum, Nancy. This dovetailed with the other three issues.
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Speaker 11: It becomes more important after the fact. But you are right,
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Speaker 11: it's going to be a hurdle for the defense that
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Speaker 11: they had the opportunity to bring this stuff up. And
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Speaker 11: I didn't see any new evidence that was created that
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Speaker 11: would excuse me.
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Speaker 3: Okay, And that's a lot of words. Why use one
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Speaker 3: word when you can use two hundred, Okay, Greg.
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Speaker 1: Bottom line, now is the time for newly discovered evidence.
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Speaker 3: If there really is newly.
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Speaker 1: Discovered evidence that exonerates Richard Allen, which is total BS
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Speaker 1: technical legal term. If there is such evidence, there deserves
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Speaker 1: to be a hearing. Okay, this is not new evidence period.
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Speaker 1: Their blunder at trial is their fault. Now you've got
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Speaker 1: logan dead now and the innmatefield to polygraph. So I
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Speaker 1: don't know how much it would have helped them. I
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Speaker 1: don't know that they could have gotten it.
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Speaker 3: In under the rules of hearsay.
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Speaker 1: But to Susan Hendrix, why is Logan ron Logan the
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Speaker 1: single best candidate.
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Speaker 3: For or the defense to hone in on now?
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Speaker 9: So a key part of this that the defense is
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Speaker 9: saying why they want to bring in ron Logan now,
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Speaker 9: is a box cutter the alleged weapon Because in this
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Speaker 9: supposed confession that ron Logan confessed too that he did it,
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Speaker 9: he said he did it with a box cutter. So
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Speaker 9: when autopsy was done on Abby and Libby at graphic
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Speaker 9: brutal pictures that we saw in that courtroom, and the
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Speaker 9: gentleman who performed that said, maybe it could have been
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Speaker 9: a box cutter. So that's what they're saying, Hey, wait
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Speaker 9: a minute, that can't be coincidental. If it was a
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Speaker 9: box cutter, then we need to bring this back in
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Speaker 9: because ron Logan confessed that it was a box cutter,
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Speaker 9: so let's bring him in. We would have if we
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Speaker 9: knew that detail, they're said.
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Speaker 1: And then you have the issue of Logan seeking a
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Speaker 1: fake alibi for the time the girls were murdered.
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Speaker 3: That doesn't look good, listen, ron.
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Speaker 10: Logan does not have an alibi.
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Speaker 12: According to cell tower data, his phone was at his
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Speaker 12: property at two oh nine pm. We know from the
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Speaker 12: video that Libby took on her phone that the girls
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Speaker 12: were approached on the bridge.
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Speaker 3: At two thirteen.
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Speaker 12: Ron had claimed for many years that he was on
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Speaker 12: surveillance video at this tropical fish store in Lafayette some
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Speaker 12: thirty minutes away, but that story didn't have surveillance videos.
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Speaker 12: There is no proof that he was elsewhere. That does
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Speaker 12: not mean that he's the killer of the girls, but
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Speaker 12: his alibi does not check out.
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Speaker 3: What is your last memory dropping.
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Speaker 10: Her off at their house with their paints?
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Speaker 9: And it wasn't until later on when we got to
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Speaker 9: the Sheriff's department it actually saw the snapchat picture.
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Speaker 2: But that's the last picture I have as the last
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Speaker 2: visual I have with little girl.
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Speaker 13: So that bridge.
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Speaker 1: Richard Allen and his defense team back in court. Who
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Speaker 1: is Richard Allen, the man convicted, the pharmacy tech who
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Speaker 1: likely watched the two little girls, Abby and Libby coming
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Speaker 1: in and out and in and out of his pharmacy
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Speaker 1: every week.
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Speaker 3: Him convicted in the.
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Speaker 1: Murders of Abby and Libby, and now back in court
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Speaker 1: stating that newly discovered evidence will set him free. Well,
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Speaker 1: you got another thought coming Richard Allen. He is claiming
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Speaker 1: number one that Ron Logan, that guy is the real killer.
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Speaker 1: But to everyone on the panel, take a look at
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Speaker 1: Ron Logan compared to the composite sketch, and Ron Logan
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Speaker 1: compared to the man on the bridge.
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Speaker 3: It's not him.
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Speaker 1: Now look at this Richard Allen compared to the composite
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Speaker 1: sketch and the man on the bridge.
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Speaker 3: Should I believe Richard Allen? My lion I, Cheryl McCollum,
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Speaker 3: it's not him. It's Richard Allen and Nancy.
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Speaker 14: There's another component we haven't talked about. We also had
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Speaker 14: the killer's voice. The defense put up nobody that said
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Speaker 14: that was not Richard Allen. Nobody came forward, not to
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Speaker 14: former girlfriend, not a neighbor. Nobody came forward and said
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Speaker 14: that sounds like Logan.
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Speaker 4: No one.
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Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum, you're right.
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Speaker 1: The defense brought no one because they chose not to
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Speaker 1: pursue Ron Logan as the sod some other dude that
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Speaker 1: did it. And they did have someone. The former girlfriend
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Speaker 1: of Logan, she stated to police that when she saw
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Speaker 1: the shot of the man on the.
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Speaker 3: Bridge, she thought, well, there's Ron Logan.
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Speaker 1: She thought that was Logan and that when she heard
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Speaker 1: the voice that she thought that was Logan's voice. They
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Speaker 1: could have brought her on, but they didn't. Let me
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Speaker 1: go quickly to Joseph Scott Morgan joining US professor forensic
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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, renowned death investigator, author of Blood Beneath
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Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon, and star of a hit podcast,
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Speaker 1: Body Bags, with Joe Scott Morgan.
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Speaker 3: Joe Scott, could you just.
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Speaker 1: Give us all a reminder of what happened to Abby
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Speaker 1: and well.
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Speaker 15: To kind of break it down as best we can
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Speaker 15: in these moments, their throats were cut fancy and let's
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Speaker 15: think about that. That's the baseline because when we began
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Speaker 15: to think about their cause of death, as you like
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Speaker 15: to say, the cod we have essentially Abby who has
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Speaker 15: got a singular two inch laceration to her throat. And
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Speaker 15: then with Libby it's a bit more dynamic in the
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Speaker 15: sense that the forensic pathologists identified that she had four
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Speaker 15: overlapping lacerations or let's just say in sized injuries or
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Speaker 15: cuts to her throat, both of these. In both cases
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Speaker 15: Nancy affected the juggler vein. And can I make one
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Speaker 15: quick comment please about this reactionary kind of event that
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Speaker 15: defense is alleging took place, I guess on the bridge
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Speaker 15: where he snapped back in a reactionary form and essentially
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Speaker 15: cut the throat. And Nancy, one of the big questions
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Speaker 15: I would have is if that happened up on the bridge,
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Speaker 15: we would see a copious amount of blood worked, thousands
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Speaker 15: of throats being cut unfortunately over my career, and you
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Speaker 15: bleed more profusely out of that location than just about
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Speaker 15: anywhere in the body. There would be blood trails leading
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Speaker 15: to specific locations that would have been very recognizable. I mean,
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Speaker 15: are they postulating that he goes up with clorox and
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Speaker 15: cleans up the bridge so that you can't identify this
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Speaker 15: on the cross ties or any other location. I just
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Speaker 15: don't think this is plausible based upon these injuries.
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Speaker 1: Nancy to Susan Hendrix joining us in investigative journalists, who
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Speaker 1: literally has written the book on the Delphi murders of
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Speaker 1: Abby and Libby. People gasped, started crying, grabbed each other, hugging.
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Speaker 3: Girars tried to look away from the shots of Abby
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Speaker 3: and Libby. They were displayed for anyone in the courtroom
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Speaker 3: to see. And isn't it true?
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Speaker 1: Susan that the ground around the girls was still saturated
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Speaker 1: in blood.
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Speaker 3: When their bodies were found.
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Speaker 9: Yeah, just huge puddles of blood. And you're right, there
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Speaker 9: were gasps in that courtroom. And I remember Natcy during
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Speaker 9: the victim impact statement the day he was sentenced, Diane,
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Speaker 9: Abby's grandmother, and Abby's grandfather, Eric, they read their victim
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Speaker 9: impact statements and I remember Diane saying, look, Abby wasn't
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Speaker 9: a daredevil. She was worried, she was concerned. Don't leave
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Speaker 9: me up here. And then seeing the crime scene photos,
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Speaker 9: it was horrific to see and knowing the long term
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Speaker 9: effects on the family members and what those girls went
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Speaker 9: through in the last moments. But the victim impacts statements
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Speaker 9: to me were so powerful, saying we sat through this
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Speaker 9: every day. We can't imagine what the girls went through,
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Speaker 9: and this is generational the pain inflicted on us. But
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Speaker 9: you were right seeing those and Eric said, Abby's grandfather,
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Speaker 9: they're worse than I even thought they could.
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Speaker 3: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 1: Two, doctor Bethony Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of
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Speaker 1: the LA jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker.
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Speaker 3: You can see her.
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Speaker 1: On Peacock now at Dr Bethany Marshall dot com, Doctor Bethany.
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Speaker 1: The fact that Richard Allen and his defense team are
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Speaker 1: raising these four issues, ron Logan.
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Speaker 3: Being one of them, as a bid.
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Speaker 1: For freedom or a new trial, how does that affect
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Speaker 1: Abby and Libby's family?
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Speaker 16: Nancy? The fact that Richard Allen could be roaming public
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Speaker 16: around that town where there are other children, other families,
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Speaker 16: and putting girls at risk is absolutely terrifying, first of all,
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Speaker 16: secondarily unfair, Nancy. What I want to contrast is what
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Speaker 16: the families saw in court, the blood, the lacerations, the cuts,
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Speaker 16: their daughters and granddaughters dead, compared to Logan and Alan
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Speaker 16: and the inmate who were talking about it, the incarcerated guy.
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Speaker 16: Those men are bragging. It's become an urban myth for them.
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Speaker 16: I did it, No I did it, No I did it.
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Speaker 16: It's like these guys are allegedly asserting themselves into the
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Speaker 16: notoriety of the crime, reliving the sexual excitement, turning it
22:16
Speaker 16: over in their head, and talking about it like a
22:18
Speaker 16: great movie that they all went to together, whereas the
22:21
Speaker 16: family and the people in the court will have those
22:24
Speaker 16: images seared into their mind forever. As a secondary post
22:29
Speaker 16: traumatic stress response, looking at those images. They'll never be
22:34
Speaker 16: able to get the images out.
22:35
Speaker 9: Of their mind.
22:35
Speaker 16: Nancy, I just feel that there's so many sex predators
22:38
Speaker 16: in the general public that you have one crime near
22:42
Speaker 16: another person's property, who, now all of a sudden, says
22:45
Speaker 16: he committed the crime allegedly will never know he's dead now.
22:48
Speaker 9: And it makes me think about how pedophiles.
22:50
Speaker 16: Congregate and share stories, and how the defense has sort
22:54
Speaker 16: of taken that up as a strategy to point the
22:57
Speaker 16: blame towards yet another pedophile alleged patophle file, whereas in fact,
23:01
Speaker 16: we know Allan did it. That's all already been proven.
23:04
Speaker 1: In a Nutshelle Susan Hendricks explain the significance of the
23:08
Speaker 1: white van.
23:09
Speaker 9: Brad Weber was on the stand two times and he
23:12
Speaker 9: said he left work, and it aligned with the confessions
23:16
Speaker 9: of Richard Allen. If he was spooked, we believed his
23:19
Speaker 9: story he looked at a white van. It's only something
23:21
Speaker 9: he would know he crossed the creek and killed the girls.
23:24
Speaker 9: So what they're saying is the defense that Libby's phone
23:26
Speaker 9: stopped moving at a particular time. Well, now from surveillance footage,
23:30
Speaker 9: it appears that the time is off a bit, so
23:32
Speaker 9: I thought about this a lot less than I think.
23:35
Speaker 9: We're listening to Richard Allen and everything. He says, what
23:38
Speaker 9: if he was spooked by the white van but near
23:41
Speaker 9: where the bodies were found? I was there after he
23:44
Speaker 9: was sentenced. I went to where the bodies were found,
23:47
Speaker 9: and coincidentally you could hear a car. It was Brad
23:49
Speaker 9: Weber's car, not the white van. Another one, and it
23:51
Speaker 9: is loud, and it's right there.
23:53
Speaker 1: Convicted child killer Richard Allen back in court with his
23:57
Speaker 1: defense team demanding either freedom or when trial based on
24:02
Speaker 1: four newly discovered pieces of evidence.
24:06
Speaker 3: All along there was an online tied a tsunami wave
24:13
Speaker 3: against the state.
24:15
Speaker 7: Listen some people paying attention to the Richard Allen Delphi
24:18
Speaker 7: murder trial or taking to social media to pass judgment
24:20
Speaker 7: on the prosecution and support for the man accused of
24:23
Speaker 7: killing Libby Jerman and Abbie Williams autumn on ex post.
24:27
Speaker 7: I reserve the right to be wrong, but I'm absolutely
24:29
Speaker 7: not seeing how anyone has convinced Richard Allen committed the murders.
24:33
Speaker 7: Luke Nicholas on X says time for a motion for
24:36
Speaker 7: directed verdict in the Delphi case. Put it to the jury.
24:39
Speaker 7: Now the state no longer has enough evidence to overcome
24:42
Speaker 7: the sculpatory evidence already presented, and Theresa chimes in with
24:46
Speaker 7: this needs to stop. This has been a huge cover
24:48
Speaker 7: up from day one. Free Richard Allen and arrest the
24:51
Speaker 7: real killers already and all involved in the cover up.
24:54
Speaker 1: Straight out to Joe Scott Morgan who lived the case
24:58
Speaker 1: along with many of us. Joscott, you have studied the
25:01
Speaker 1: physics so carefully. What do you believe is the strongest
25:05
Speaker 1: evidence against Allen?
25:07
Speaker 15: Well, I think that probably for me at least, one
25:10
Speaker 15: of the things that really stands out, and you kind
25:11
Speaker 15: of touched on it just a moment ago, Nancy, was
25:15
Speaker 15: this expended round that was found at the scene. If
25:18
Speaker 15: you can throw this up on the camera, this is
25:22
Speaker 15: actually a forty caliber round right here. This is what
25:26
Speaker 15: it would have looked like. This is in pristine shape.
25:29
Speaker 15: This scene has been ejected from a weapon which was
25:33
Speaker 15: actually a six hour so that when this thing is
25:36
Speaker 15: racked back, it leaves these little striations on the external
25:40
Speaker 15: portion of the round. That round is tied back to
25:44
Speaker 15: the weapon that he possessed. Nancy. That's one of the
25:47
Speaker 15: really big pieces for me relative to relative to the
25:51
Speaker 15: physical evidence. It's not pure ballistic evidence because this is
25:55
Speaker 15: an unfired round. However, this is accepted science, Nancy. So
26:00
Speaker 15: that's one of the big pieces here from me.
26:02
Speaker 1: You know, the ballistics evidence cannot be ignored, but the
26:08
Speaker 1: defense is conveniently doing that, Joe Scott, and they are
26:13
Speaker 1: focusing on not only Ron Logan's false confession, they are
26:19
Speaker 1: focusing on the timing of the van as it relates
26:24
Speaker 1: to the last time the girl's phone was used. And
26:27
Speaker 1: they are also arguing about Libby Germans cell phone being
26:35
Speaker 1: used after the state says she's dead.
26:40
Speaker 8: Listen shocking moment in the courtroom when former FBI forensic
26:44
Speaker 8: examiner Stacy Eldridge says Libby Germans phone received a call
26:47
Speaker 8: at five forty five pm February thirteenth, twenty seventeen, and
26:51
Speaker 8: within milliseconds a headphone jack was inserted into the phone.
26:56
Speaker 8: Eldridge says. The headphone jack was removed nearly five hours
26:59
Speaker 8: lea at ten thirty two pm. Eldridge says, I cannot
27:04
Speaker 8: think of any explanation that doesn't involve human interaction.
27:08
Speaker 1: Joining Scott Iiker, a founding member of the FBI Cellular
27:12
Speaker 1: Analysis Team, former FBI Scott.
27:15
Speaker 3: What are they saying exactly.
27:17
Speaker 13: Well, it sounds like they're saying that there was a
27:21
Speaker 13: headphone plugged into the phone and then removed right after
27:25
Speaker 13: a call that occurred. It's hard to tell from you know,
27:29
Speaker 13: the was it not looking at the actual phone and
27:32
Speaker 13: the extraction of the phone. Why they're saying that. I mean,
27:36
Speaker 13: there could be several different things that occur. A device
27:40
Speaker 13: was plugged in, or was somehow the insertion point filled
27:47
Speaker 13: with dirt or something that allowed it to think that
27:50
Speaker 13: something was plugged into it.
27:51
Speaker 1: Well, the state responded the defense emotion that we're looking
27:56
Speaker 1: at today demanding either freedom or a new trial.
28:00
Speaker 3: Us on to say that.
28:02
Speaker 1: Dirt or water could not have clogged the phone. So
28:07
Speaker 1: what does dirt or water clogging the phone have to
28:13
Speaker 1: do with this?
28:14
Speaker 3: Listen?
28:15
Speaker 7: After the shocking news that a headphone jack had been
28:18
Speaker 7: plugged into Libby Jerman's phone milliseconds after receiving a call
28:22
Speaker 7: at five point forty five pm February thirteen, the defense
28:25
Speaker 7: calls back to the stand State Police digital forensic expert
28:28
Speaker 7: Chris Cecil and asks about the lack of reporting about
28:31
Speaker 7: the headphone jack data. Cecil said he did a Google
28:34
Speaker 7: Search and found a headphone jack could register as being
28:37
Speaker 7: used if water or dirt is in the port. The
28:40
Speaker 7: defense counter is asking, Cecil, do you normally Google search
28:44
Speaker 7: when conducting a criminal investigation. Defense attorney Jennifer Auger presses further, saying,
28:49
Speaker 7: you and the state have had seven and a half
28:52
Speaker 7: years to research and you came in here with a
28:55
Speaker 7: Google search.
28:56
Speaker 1: The defense is climbing that the girls sell phone was used,
29:02
Speaker 1: was plugged into a jack after they're dead, clearly arguing
29:10
Speaker 1: that someone was manipulating the phone, okay, or even the
29:14
Speaker 1: girls manipulating the phone, which would throw off the state's
29:17
Speaker 1: timeline because they claimed the phone was used.
29:21
Speaker 3: Got it so far?
29:23
Speaker 1: Yes, no, I got it and that's the true okay,
29:26
Speaker 1: So in their motion is the headphone jack?
29:29
Speaker 3: Let me tell you the rest.
29:31
Speaker 1: So the state brings on so this is not newly discovered,
29:35
Speaker 1: by the way, again, because that came up at trial
29:39
Speaker 1: and the state brought on an expert to counter it, claiming, hey,
29:43
Speaker 1: it got clogged with water and dirt which was at
29:46
Speaker 1: the scene he alan forced the girls through a creek,
29:51
Speaker 1: and the defense attorney says, well, what do you have
29:54
Speaker 1: to support that, and the state's expert said a Google search.
30:00
Speaker 3: Story short.
30:01
Speaker 1: The defense said, after this long, all you got is
30:03
Speaker 1: a Google search. I would have said, well, after this long,
30:05
Speaker 1: why didn't you do a Google search?
30:07
Speaker 11: Well, it's not the defense's job to prove their innocence.
30:11
Speaker 11: That's on the prosecution. And I wish I worked in
30:15
Speaker 11: a county where experts get on the stand for the
30:17
Speaker 11: prosecution and rely on Google searches. You know what we've
30:21
Speaker 11: all seen the mugs. Don't mistake my law degree for
30:23
Speaker 11: a Google search. Same thing with science. That is appalling
30:27
Speaker 11: Palmage County. The prosecutors are much better.
30:29
Speaker 13: I don't know, I don't know.
30:30
Speaker 7: No one else.
30:31
Speaker 1: Now you got a totally bass Ackwards Morse. The defense
30:35
Speaker 1: should have done a Google search and figured out you
30:38
Speaker 1: can get the same reaction from a cell phone if
30:41
Speaker 1: it's clogged with dirt or water. You know what, if
30:45
Speaker 1: you have a question, cell analysis expert, here's your chance.
30:51
Speaker 1: What about it, Scott, could you explain two Morse? The
30:55
Speaker 1: state's theory that the reason it looked like her phone
30:59
Speaker 1: had been plugged into a jack was because it.
31:01
Speaker 3: Was clagged with dirt and water, which it.
31:03
Speaker 13: Was most definitely. I mean that water is a conductor
31:06
Speaker 13: of electricity, and it is a very small pound of
31:10
Speaker 13: electricity when the phone like a phone jack, is plugged
31:15
Speaker 13: into the bottom of the phone, and it allows that connection.
31:18
Speaker 13: Right allows that electrical connection to being made waters just
31:23
Speaker 13: like that right that allows electricital electricity to go through.
31:28
Speaker 13: Should that have been a Google search on during the trial?
31:32
Speaker 1: No?
31:32
Speaker 13: Should it have been something that they looked at prior
31:35
Speaker 13: to going to trial and had an expert come in,
31:38
Speaker 13: Or shouldn't they have tried that on another phone? I
31:40
Speaker 13: agree they should definitely should have done that prior to
31:43
Speaker 13: having this brought up.
31:44
Speaker 1: When a minute, Scott iiker, the defense can do it too.
31:48
Speaker 3: The defense has subpoena power.
31:50
Speaker 1: They're getting paid investigators paid for by you and me
31:53
Speaker 1: the state for the defense. Yes, we pay for his defense.
31:57
Speaker 1: So you and Morse are arguing the state should have
32:00
Speaker 1: done this, and that yes, the defense could have done
32:03
Speaker 1: it themselves.
32:05
Speaker 3: Why didn't they do it?
32:06
Speaker 13: I agree, they definitely could have done it themselves too.
32:08
Speaker 13: That would have been a big thing to bring up
32:11
Speaker 13: by the defense if they had done that on their own,
32:13
Speaker 13: but they didn't.
32:14
Speaker 3: What about that, Morse?
32:15
Speaker 11: Well, again, prosecution has to prove someone is guilty. However,
32:20
Speaker 11: it sounds like all these issues that you're looking at
32:22
Speaker 11: to affect the verdict sounds like they really lead to
32:25
Speaker 11: an ineffective council claim. That's what these issues are. Those
32:28
Speaker 11: are notoriously last ditch efforts that people convicted file. They
32:33
Speaker 11: have less than ten percent chance to propose.
32:35
Speaker 1: Say you're giving up on the cell phone. You're giving
32:38
Speaker 1: up on the cell phone giving I know what you're doing.
32:45
Speaker 11: You can't have an expert get on the stand and
32:48
Speaker 11: say they researched Google. This is a court of law,
32:50
Speaker 11: this is people's lives. We have a constitution that has
32:53
Speaker 11: a standard. It's not for social media consumption.
32:57
Speaker 14: Standing.
33:00
Speaker 3: They can't. They can't.
33:01
Speaker 11: Well they did in twenty in twenty five years I have.
33:05
Speaker 11: I would be appalled and I do serious cases like this.
33:08
Speaker 11: If a prosecutor got up and said, well my expert
33:13
Speaker 11: did a Google search, that's it. That person is they
33:16
Speaker 11: have zero credibility.
33:18
Speaker 1: Zero susan And what happened? This expert testified and was
33:23
Speaker 1: on cross exam and I was asked, well, how do
33:27
Speaker 1: you know that water or dirt can cause the same result?
33:31
Speaker 9: They went Google, absolutely absolutely, And Rosie mentioned it in closing.
33:36
Speaker 3: What happened? What happened.
33:39
Speaker 9: Was they alluded to the fact. The defense is saying, hey,
33:41
Speaker 9: someone was there, or move Libby because her phone someone
33:44
Speaker 9: plugs something in. But that doesn't really make sense if
33:46
Speaker 9: be thinking about it. So the prosecution was saying, yes,
33:49
Speaker 9: this could happen because of dirt and water, and it
33:54
Speaker 9: was I was in the courtroom, yes, if I could
33:56
Speaker 9: see the defense, I looked right at Rosy and Baldwin
33:58
Speaker 9: and they went like that. They googled it. He googled it.
34:01
Speaker 9: They mentioned it in the closing argument. He googled this.
34:04
Speaker 9: Turns out one of the jurors was interviewed on murder
34:07
Speaker 9: sheet and they said that they kind of put aside.
34:11
Speaker 9: What they really focused on was Richard Allen, his voice
34:14
Speaker 9: and putting himself there an interrogation video where his wife
34:17
Speaker 9: walks in and says, you didn't tell me you were
34:19
Speaker 9: at the bridge that day. That's what it boiled down to.
34:22
Speaker 9: But you're right, the.
34:23
Speaker 1: Defense they use that attacking the state's witness because they
34:28
Speaker 1: used to Google search. Everybody on that jury probably relies
34:31
Speaker 1: on Google, so they're balking up the wrong tree with this.
34:34
Speaker 2: We also know by three o'clock nobody's hearing them they're
34:39
Speaker 2: nobody's screaming, nobody's running, nobody's calling on their phones. Again,
34:44
Speaker 2: this was a very fast deal, and y'all, here's the
34:48
Speaker 2: reality most children that are going to be murdered or
34:51
Speaker 2: murdered in the first three hours.
35:03
Speaker 3: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
35:10
Speaker 1: Joining me is former FBI investigator and expert in forensic photography,
35:15
Speaker 1: Bill Daily, Bill, thank you for being with us. We
35:20
Speaker 1: were talking earlier about those crime scene photos that made
35:24
Speaker 1: people start crying in the courtroom, gasp, grab each other
35:30
Speaker 1: for support. One of your expertise is forensic photography. How
35:37
Speaker 1: do you get through taking the photographs of crime scenes,
35:43
Speaker 1: for instance, where two little girls are brutally murdered.
35:47
Speaker 3: Well, that's I can tell you.
35:47
Speaker 17: You know, the times I've gone to crime scenes where
35:49
Speaker 17: have been bombings and kidnappings, bank robberies, where people have
35:52
Speaker 17: been killed, you really have to remove yourself. You really
35:56
Speaker 17: have to get a step back and say you're doing
35:57
Speaker 17: it for the victims, You're doing it for the betterment
36:00
Speaker 17: of society, that you're going to find out who's responsible
36:03
Speaker 17: for these heenous crimes. And so you kind of look
36:06
Speaker 17: through the viewfinders you're photographing and documenting the area to
36:10
Speaker 17: kind of say, this is going to go towards making
36:13
Speaker 17: justice happen, So you kind of need to put a
36:16
Speaker 17: bit of a shield.
36:17
Speaker 3: Up to protect yourself.
36:18
Speaker 17: Otherwise, like you said, here, people looking at it from
36:21
Speaker 17: the jury box are going to be overwhelmed with the
36:24
Speaker 17: emotion because you picture yourself. If you start imagining that
36:27
Speaker 17: those are your children, your nieces and nephews, or mother
36:31
Speaker 17: or father or sister, brother, it will be too overwhelming.
36:33
Speaker 17: So that's what you really need to do. You need
36:35
Speaker 17: to kind of distance yourself and look at it through
36:38
Speaker 17: the kind of empirical view of a lens to hope
36:41
Speaker 17: to get to the truth.
36:42
Speaker 1: The last major point the defense is bringing up is
36:46
Speaker 1: the fact that Richard Allen was kept in DSA Department
36:49
Speaker 1: of Corrections as opposed to another jail. Why do they
36:53
Speaker 1: care because it was there he was placed in solitary.
36:57
Speaker 3: Confinement and gave.
37:00
Speaker 1: I think it was sixty one confessions that he murdered
37:05
Speaker 1: Abby and Lebby Listen.
37:07
Speaker 7: The defense also claimed Alan had no absolute right to
37:10
Speaker 7: refuse being transferred into state custody since the safekeeping order
37:14
Speaker 7: wasn't served to Allan or his attorney, Breg Gibson. They
37:16
Speaker 7: never argued against the transfer.
37:18
Speaker 3: So another thing that was never brought up. Susan Hendrix.
37:22
Speaker 1: The significance of arguing about where he was housed is
37:26
Speaker 1: because they cannot suppress those statements he gave. Statement after
37:31
Speaker 1: you can't suppress sixty one confessions right including to your wife,
37:36
Speaker 1: over the phone, being recorded, to other inmates, to the wardens,
37:40
Speaker 1: to everybody.
37:41
Speaker 3: He told everybody, I did it, so okay, can't suppress those,
37:48
Speaker 3: So argue the fact that he was in.
37:51
Speaker 1: The wrong facility. In a nutshell, explain this argument, I.
37:56
Speaker 9: Think, Nancy, this is their strongest point for possibility of
38:00
Speaker 9: an appeal, which is right after he was arrested, Sheriff
38:03
Speaker 9: tob Lesbie at the time it was a safe keeping
38:06
Speaker 9: order said look he won't be safe at Carroll County,
38:08
Speaker 9: so we have to send him to another prison. Well,
38:11
Speaker 9: they're saying he should not have been there, of course,
38:13
Speaker 9: innocent until proven guilty, and they're saying, as you mentioned,
38:17
Speaker 9: it drove him crazy, so to speak. So that's why
38:19
Speaker 9: he confessed because of where he was. But the state says,
38:23
Speaker 9: look he was treated better than other inmates. Get an iPad,
38:26
Speaker 9: he had a lot more than he would have had,
38:29
Speaker 9: meaning the psychologist, doctor Walla, he wouldn't have had at
38:33
Speaker 9: Carroll County, and I bet they're wishing he didn't have
38:35
Speaker 9: that because that's who he confessed.
38:36
Speaker 1: To, so essentially to you, Cheryl McCollum, they're arguing he
38:41
Speaker 1: was in the wrong facility. I think as a bid
38:43
Speaker 1: to get the statements thrown out.
38:46
Speaker 3: You sat in court with me.
38:48
Speaker 1: What do you make of the doctor claiming Richard Allen
38:52
Speaker 1: was faking it? I mean he looked sane in the courtroom.
38:56
Speaker 10: I agree with the doctor. First of all. I believe
38:58
Speaker 10: he's still confessing today, and I believe if you listen
39:02
Speaker 10: to what he confessed to. He tells the story in
39:06
Speaker 10: chronological order. Somebody that is delusional cannot do that. He
39:11
Speaker 10: starts where he went to his parents, He got beer,
39:15
Speaker 10: He went home and changed clothes. That is also key.
39:19
Speaker 10: Why are you changing clothes and putting on more layers
39:22
Speaker 10: on a warm day. He tells exactly where he went,
39:25
Speaker 10: where he parked his car far away, He went to
39:28
Speaker 10: the trail, He went to the bridge, He saw the girls,
39:31
Speaker 10: he followed him. He tells you in order that this
39:34
Speaker 10: crime occurred later. He also tells you the motive and
39:39
Speaker 10: the reason he did not complete the sexual assault because
39:42
Speaker 10: of the white.
39:43
Speaker 1: Man Greg Morris joining US renowned trial lawyer Greg Morse.
39:49
Speaker 1: Maybe suppressing one confession, but sixty one confessions not.
39:55
Speaker 3: Going to happen.
39:56
Speaker 11: Well, you're right, that's a lot to overcome, especially when
39:59
Speaker 11: they're on j a phone call speaking with family. However,
40:02
Speaker 11: the more difficult thing here, or the issue is this
40:05
Speaker 11: person had a lawyer. They contacted the police department, and
40:10
Speaker 11: I guess he was under a different name. You know,
40:13
Speaker 11: there's a reason why in cases the second thought, I'm retained,
40:16
Speaker 11: we file an invocation of rights. It doesn't matter if
40:19
Speaker 11: the police or people go talk to the person. So
40:22
Speaker 11: their issue is trying to use he didn't get counsel
40:24
Speaker 11: when he had one, they used a different name, and
40:27
Speaker 11: detail that into is this decompensated psychosis that led him
40:32
Speaker 11: to a confession. He's probably not going to get on
40:34
Speaker 11: those grounds. But not putting him in touch with the
40:37
Speaker 11: lawyer who contacted and was hired for him, that's particularly
40:40
Speaker 11: troubling under the sixth Amendment to the Constitution.
40:44
Speaker 1: Troubled you may be, but does it warrant a new trial?
40:48
Speaker 1: Much lesser reversal in freedom.
40:51
Speaker 3: No, well, I think all the mission into naturrial.
40:54
Speaker 11: The standard is not innocence. It is there a possibility
40:57
Speaker 11: the result would have been different. That's all it is.
41:00
Speaker 11: So the prosecution stuck to a timeline here. Then it
41:03
Speaker 11: turns out not all of the evidence that they found,
41:06
Speaker 11: whether it's related to the logan person or the headphone,
41:12
Speaker 11: doesn't fit into their own narrative, and these create issues
41:16
Speaker 11: that this guy should get a new trial. He may
41:19
Speaker 11: be convicted again with the other evidence, but these issues
41:22
Speaker 11: taken together are to not warrant a new trial here
41:25
Speaker 11: for ineffective or for the core allowing some of this
41:29
Speaker 11: stuff in with the Google search.
41:30
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds in that del Fi courthouse,
41:34
Speaker 1: And now we remember an American hero, Sergeant Chris Jenkins,
41:38
Speaker 1: Lowden County Sheriff, Tennessee, struck and killed in a line
41:42
Speaker 1: of duty. US Air Force vet twenty years with Louden County.
41:46
Speaker 1: Survived by grieving children Clay and Chloe, mourning fiance Christy
41:52
Speaker 1: and canine partner. Deja vu American hero Sergeant Chris Jenkins.
41:59
Speaker 1: Nancy signing off goodbye friend,