Latest / The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast / #358: Mason Rebarchek-Winona State | From “Run Faster Than You Can” to Leading a Program

Transcript

#358: Mason Rebarchek-Winona State | From “Run Faster Than You Can” to Leading a Program · The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast

0:00
Hey, thanks for being here today, guys.
0:02
Real quick before we get into today's amazing guest, so happy
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that you're here and going to hear their journey.
0:07
Just want to let you know something crazy happened in
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program. So in the month of April, we got
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two things going on, 10 free vaulting poles.
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If you buy a pole vault pit in a weather cover or value pack,
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etcetera, and then also buy one and get one free on discus,
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shots and hammer. So let's get some specifics.
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Go over to gilathletics.com. They've got everything you need
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there as far as what poles, what pole vault pits are eligible,
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what discuses, shots and hammers, etcetera.
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Or call your preferred Guild dealer.
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They've also got the deets for you there.
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Let's save you some money right now in 2026 and make it the best
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year ever. Now let's hit that music and get
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on with today's guest. You're listening to the Guild
0:48
Athletics Connections podcast with host Mike Cunningham.
0:54
Track and field world juvenile tuned in to a humble servant,
0:58
Mike Cunningham, for another extraordinary message for Guild
1:02
Athletics connections. And you're back here on the
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Guild Connections podcast. Man, I'm so, so pumped that you
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get, whether I get one or a million.
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And trust me, we're closer to that ladder than the former.
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guest, our coaches from around the country, sometimes around
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the world. And it'll never, it'll never
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leave me that how special it is that you would press play.
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This is a hard podcast to listen to.
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It's long, right? And so typically takes you
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other day and said that they were on a three hour drive and
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1. They got through a whole 1 and
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putting that out there. So again, really appreciate that
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for you guys and gals that are new here, my name, I'm the host
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here is Mike Cunningham. I guess my official titles
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national business development manager or something like that
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for Gil Athletics. But most people know me as the
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podcast guy or even the Twitter guy.
2:00
So having a lot of fun there and we are going to have fun today.
2:05
I'm pumped for this. I love bringing you coaches from
2:08
different perspectives, different divisions, different
2:10
backgrounds. And you know, we've certainly,
2:13
we're over 350 episodes. We've certainly had 350 distinct
2:16
backgrounds. And I just know today's is going
2:19
to be awesome as well. So help me.
2:20
Welcome from the great state of Minnesota, Winota State
2:23
University, the director of track and field cross country.
2:26
We're going to learn more about all of that here.
2:28
Welcome. The wise, the wonderful Mr.
2:30
Mason Rubar. Check.
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See. Yeah, I did.
2:33
I did it the other way. I knew I was going to mess that
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up. Mason.
2:38
Good morning, brother. How are you today?
2:40
Good morning. I'm doing good.
2:42
Thanks for having me. Make me feel a little better.
2:45
So I got it right because you corrected me.
2:47
It's Winona State. How many people call it Winona?
2:50
And what does Winona mean? Is it the city?
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How did we get Winona State? What's the name there?
2:55
Yeah, so it's the name of the city and I'd say it's maybe 5050
3:00
people get it wrong. And I don't know if they get it
3:02
wrong on purpose. Right.
3:03
There are rivals and they say it wrong on purpose.
3:06
But it is funny when people come for job interviews and they
3:10
pronounce it wrong. It really it's it's a number
3:13
one, no, no in a job interview because people on the committee,
3:15
they get really annoyed if if the interviewing person says it
3:18
wrong. But yeah, there's just a, a
3:22
Native American legend about a, a, a young, a daughter named
3:27
Winona. And that's kind of how it got
3:29
its name. That's that's what I've heard,
3:31
yeah. Have you guys, this is just
3:33
interesting to me. So I graduated from Troy State
3:36
University, but after I graduated, they wanted a more
3:41
universal name, meaning they didn't want to like tie down to
3:44
the state of just Alabama. So they it's now Troy
3:46
University. I still call it Troy State
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because that's what my degree says and they didn't ask me my
3:51
opinion. Has Winona State, have they
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ever, have you ever heard of rumblings of them trying to see?
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I said Winona again, Winona State, I know I saw you smiles
3:59
like, oh man, Winona State. Have you heard rumblings of them
4:02
trying to wanting to go to Winona University?
4:04
Or is it just that they're smarter than our Troy guys?
4:06
They're like, it doesn't matter bro.
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No, I love the name. I know at some point in our
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history, the schools in the Minnesota State system, I don't
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know if they were told to make a choice, but at at some point a
4:17
couple of schools went with Minnesota State and then the
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name of the town and then others of us.
4:22
So like Minnesota State, Mankato, MN State, Moorhead, and
4:25
then others of us stuck with like Saint Cloud State, Bemidji
4:29
State, Winona State. So, so those could have been
4:32
Minnesota State, Winona, MN state, etcetera and.
4:35
Mankato Moorhead used to be Mankato State and Moorhead
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State. Oh, yeah, that's right.
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I did know that. I didn't think about that,
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though. Yeah.
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Kind of like, you know, the UW System is all, you know, UW
4:45
lacrosse. U double Claire.
4:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.
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Well, we didn't come here to get a lesson on Winona's history.
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I do always appreciate that, though, because I do.
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I kind of find that kind of stuff fascinating.
4:57
We came here to learn more about you, my friend Mason.
5:01
Somewhere along the way, track became a part of your life.
5:05
You didn't become a track coach and didn't do it, but we also
5:08
know that you didn't necessarily have to be an athlete.
5:11
We've had plenty of amazing coaches on the podcast that
5:13
didn't do track as an athlete. Where in the world does track
5:16
and field start for you? Yeah, so I think I give credit
5:21
to my 7th grade PE teacher who's the middle school coach Sam
5:26
Service, great guy. We just had a track and field
5:30
unit in 7th grade PE and that must have won the 40 yard dash
5:35
or something. And you know, you do that in
5:38
your 7th grade kid, you're like, Oh, I'm fast.
5:39
I should do track and field. And so I think that's what got
5:43
me to start it. But I give Sam all the credit
5:45
for really setting the course of my life because he's the one
5:48
that put me in the hurdles and, and he's a great hurdle coach,
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even even at the 7th grade level, had me doing drills that
5:56
are relevant. And, and you know, I was, I was,
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I was an OK enough sprinter. I I maybe could have gone to
6:02
College in, in the 100 of the 200, but I never would have, you
6:05
know, made anything of it, you know, championship wise or
6:09
whatever. But the hurdles became my thing.
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And and yeah, I give Sam all the credit in the world for really
6:16
setting the course of my life from from the start.
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I knew we had a kindred spirit together because hurdles are my
6:23
thing too. My my first e-mail address
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everwashurdlelove@hotmail.com So.
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I my e-mail address is still it's run 110 HH.
6:31
Yeah, it's. Nice nice, love it.
6:33
My my. I just got my license plate.
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I had this when I was at my license plate was hurdle and I
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don't know why it's taking me, you know, gosh, 40 years later
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or whatever it's been now my license plate here, Illinois
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says hurdle as well. I couldn't believe it was
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available. Like like literally when I was
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typing it in, I was fully expecting because I think
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everybody loves hurdles. I'm like, oh, someone's got
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hurdle and they didn't. So I was pretty happy about
6:53
that. It's funny that you talked about
6:56
hurdling in middle school. I just literally yesterday had a
7:00
phone call with a former athlete of my decathlete at Mississippi
7:03
State and his son is 1/7 grader and is doing middle school
7:07
track. And he was like, you know, dad,
7:10
I've never done hurdles. Like why?
7:12
You know, why would I do her? I've never done hurdles.
7:13
And he was like, son, you're in middle school.
7:15
No one's done hurdles. And my daughter who's also 7th
7:18
grade, just had track practice started this weekend for shot
7:22
put. And you know, she was like, dad,
7:23
everybody's a noob. And I was like, you're in
7:25
middle, Like what do you mean? Of course, like I just, I didn't
7:29
understand that what what was your, was there any trepidation
7:31
because you know the hurdles, it's one thing to run in front
7:34
of your peers and things like that.
7:35
It's another thing to run with obstacles in front of you.
7:38
Was there any trepidation when Coach first introduced the
7:41
hurdles to you? I don't.
7:42
I don't recall that, no. You just like, OK, let's I'm
7:46
going to run, but I'm going to hop over 10 things.
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Yeah, the, the one, it's funny how the, the, the memories that
7:52
we have, right, like 1,000,000 of things happened in 7th grade.
7:55
And there's, you know, just a couple of very vivid memories
7:58
you have. So the, the truly the only
8:01
memory I have of that 7th grade season was being in the
8:06
cafeteria and he had some hurdles set up and he's showed
8:10
me how to do like a trail egg walkover drill.
8:12
And he said do these till I come back.
8:14
And then he went and coached whoever else.
8:16
And then at some point he must have came back.
8:18
But that's that's the memory that I have is is trail egg
8:21
walkovers do these till I come. Back how?
8:23
How long did that? No idea, No idea.
8:25
It could have been 5 minutes. It could have been oh.
8:27
OK, OK. I was waiting for you to tell me
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like you're like an hour later I was like, oh please do not stop.
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Coach Oh that that's that's the memory.
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It's just showing me that drill and say do these till I come
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back. That's interesting.
8:39
Do you know who Malcolm Gladwell is?
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Do you know that name and author?
8:43
You've maybe certainly heard the book Outliers or Tipping Point.
8:48
Sure, because you get a lot of books you've had to Heard of
8:50
these books. Yeah.
8:51
Malcolm Gladwell, who's also a big track fan, He was a miler
8:54
back in the day. That's a podcast called
8:56
Revisionist History. And he did A2 parter on memories
9:00
and how we think memories are like this VHS tape that in our
9:03
head and we just rewind and go to here and it's like, Oh no,
9:06
actually memories. Cuz you're right.
9:08
You're like, well, how can you not remember relatively?
9:10
Was it 30 minutes, an hour, 3 hours?
9:12
Like yeah, that's my memory. Just remembers that he's left.
9:15
It said to keep doing them, and so I did them, but I have no
9:17
clue. A lot of times people fill in
9:20
stuff and just go, yeah, it was an hour.
9:22
And then you ask coach and he's like, yeah, I was going 5
9:24
minutes. What are you talking about?
9:25
It's just interesting how memories work.
9:27
It's kind of fascinating, actually.
9:29
Yeah. What sticks?
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How did that progress through high school?
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Do you keep doing the hurdles? Yeah, yeah, I did.
9:36
Yeah, I got into high school and, you know, funny first day
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of first day of high school track story, you know, you know,
9:44
you're, you're new, you don't really know the coaches yet.
9:46
And they're like, all right, sprinters over here, distance
9:48
over here, throwers over here. And so I heard sprinters and I'm
9:52
like, well, hurdling is sprinting.
9:53
So I went with that group and they had just the hardest
9:55
workout, right? It's like 6-4 hundreds or
9:57
something out on the street because there's still snow on
9:59
the ground and whatever. So we go to that, you know, 9th
10:02
grade never. You don't train between seasons
10:04
and 9th grade, right? You just, you just get in there
10:06
and you do it. And then so we do that and then
10:09
it come the next day and someone says something about hurdles.
10:11
I'm like, oh, well, I'm a hurdle.
10:12
I didn't know there was another group.
10:13
Well, it turns out they did like something easy on the first day.
10:17
They were doing something hard on the second day.
10:19
So I'm like, oh, I'm a hurdle. Oh, no.
10:21
So the first two days were like those brutal, brutal workouts.
10:25
But yeah, I know. So just, you know, got in the
10:27
hurdle group had great, great hurdle coaches in high school
10:31
too. Brad Chamberlain was was our
10:34
hurdle coach that first year and we got, we're really fortunate
10:39
went to Alaska high School. It's, I don't know, a 10 minute
10:41
drive from UW lacrosse. And so each year we kind of had
10:45
a revolving door of UWL guys that were done with their
10:49
eligibility but hadn't graduated yet or we're still around town.
10:52
And so I had just countless all American, you know, UWL guys as
10:57
coaches over the years. I'm sure you know, Bill
11:00
Schrader, he played for the Packers for a lot of years.
11:02
And anyway, my junior year, he was it was that that spring that
11:05
he got drafted by the Packers. So he was coaching that Alaska
11:08
and and then in April or whatever got got drafted.
11:12
And so he was he was there in my junior year.
11:14
And and so anyway, yeah, so just got into it and funny story,
11:20
this is a little bit off track, but I know you love coaches and
11:23
coaches stories. So Steve Blocker at Emporia
11:26
State, he's gotten out of coaching now, but he and I met
11:29
at the coaches association a number of years ago.
11:31
We're on a committee together. And and just like this
11:33
conversation now, just sort of, you know, where you from,
11:35
where'd you go to school, that sort of thing.
11:37
And, and I, and he's like, yeah, you know, I'm from Arizona, but
11:42
you know, I went to, I went to Augsburg up in the Twin Cities
11:44
and, and I went to UWL. He's like, I only ran one meet
11:47
in my life ever at UWL. And I'm like, oh, what, what
11:50
year? And, you know, whatever, 2001 or
11:52
something like that. I'm like, I would have been in
11:53
that meet. And so it turns out we, you
11:55
know, we raced each other once. And yeah.
11:59
And then so we keep talking and, and, and, and he said something
12:03
about actually this might have come first, you know, from
12:05
Wisconsin. And he goes, Oh my, my high
12:08
school hurdle coach is from Wisconsin.
12:09
I go, that's funny. My high school hurdle coach
12:11
moved to Arizona. I wasn't Brad Chamberlain, was
12:14
it, you guys? Yeah.
12:15
So we had the same high school hurdle coach.
12:18
Yeah. That moved from Wisconsin to
12:20
Arizona. And then.
12:22
Yeah. So then we turns out we found
12:23
out. We raced each other once.
12:24
And then maybe three or four months later, my daughter, who
12:27
was maybe, I don't know, 7-8 years old at the time, comes up
12:30
from the basement. She's looking through some
12:31
boxes. Like, Dad, I found some
12:33
pictures. Is this you hurtling?
12:35
And I'm looking at them like. I think that's Steve.
12:38
So you know, back in the late 90s nobody took pictures of
12:40
anything. I have like 5 total pictures of
12:43
myself hurtling and one of them has Steven.
12:46
So I take a picture, send it to Steve.
12:47
I'm like, is this you? He's like Yep, that's me.
12:50
Sure enough, one of those random pictures is me and Steve racing
12:53
each other that one time that we have raced each other.
12:56
Dude that's like buying a lottery ticket type stuff.
12:59
Yeah, isn't that crazy? Holy cow, that's interesting.
13:04
I, I wonder, you know, my memories, first of all, not that
13:07
good as I get older, but also, you know, I can have a little
13:10
grace for myself, you know, 350 episodes.
13:12
Steve Blocker was one of our guest.
13:14
He's he's a Guilt Podcast alum. And I wonder if he shared that
13:16
story because that feels like the kind of story he also would
13:19
share be like, you know, happenstance.
13:21
That's just crazy to me. Yeah, yeah.
13:24
So we we took a quick selfie and and Facebook messaged it over to
13:28
Chamby and yeah, we go ahead. You know, these guys, he goes.
13:31
Yeah, one of them was that he said something, you know, one of
13:34
them one wasn't very fast, he could still hurdle the other one
13:37
something and and so, yeah, so as far as I know, he's still in
13:41
Arizona and and I still, he messaged both of us a few years
13:44
ago. He had a hurdler and high school
13:46
hurdler. And so he's still coaching.
13:48
Not in Arizona, but anyways. The the just the the the story
13:52
of you guys raced at the same track and that that alone is
13:56
like that's a million to one. Yeah, that coach though, because
14:00
of the Arizona that is. Yeah.
14:03
I mean, that pulls the the one in a billion.
14:05
That's really amazing, actually. Holy cow.
14:08
Yeah, that's awesome. How did you know hurdlers or
14:14
what year did you graduate high school?
14:15
That helps me with time frame. Yeah, 96.
14:18
Oh, OK, so I was 94. OK, What kind of track athlete
14:24
were you? And what I mean by that, I don't
14:26
care about your PRS. I've never cared about anybody's
14:28
PRS because that has zero to do with your coaching ability to
14:32
be. I mean, we've had Jeremy Warner,
14:34
Olympic gold medalist on here. And my, my number one question
14:37
to him was, hey, did they did you ever try the 800?
14:39
You know, that's the big Internet thing.
14:41
Never. He said, by the way, that was
14:42
never a thought for him. But I didn't even ask him his PR
14:45
Like, who cares? What I really mean by what kind
14:48
of track athlete you were is it's 90, you know, 9092 to 96
14:52
when you're in high school. We really don't have the
14:55
Internet at that point there. There was some I remember doing
14:57
some Internet in high school, but you know, message board
14:59
stuff, not no search engines, no Google, etcetera.
15:02
Were you the kind like how well did you know other her?
15:06
Alan Johnsons And I can't think of anybody else now, but you
15:09
know, there's amazing others. Maybe Angela Taylor.
15:13
Were you the kind of guy that knew all the other good hurdlers
15:16
worldwide or even regionally? And and kind of adjunct to that
15:21
question, did you go to the library to read books like how
15:24
did you feed that hurdle? Nerddom, if you will.
15:28
Yeah, I no, I don't think I knew a lot of athletes.
15:31
You know, I knew Alan Johnson, I think just from the Olympics,
15:35
you know, 96, maybe I watched 92.
15:39
But no, I don't think I knew a lot of names.
15:41
Maybe the world record holder or yeah, just a few names here and
15:45
there. He was the guy at Wisconsin at
15:48
the time. Was it Reggie Torian?
15:50
Oh my God, Reggie Torian, who I met, who had the biggest Cavs
15:53
I'd ever seen when I met him at the 97, I think 97 NCAA champs
15:57
in Indiana. Yeah, great guy was amazing.
16:00
So it just just knew a few names definitely wasn't a track nerd
16:04
or hurdle nerd, just had really great coaching, you know, just
16:09
enjoyed competing. I just loved.
16:11
So this day I, I wish I could still go and hurdle.
16:14
I mean, I just, it's just so much fun.
16:16
That's awesome, I'm glad your body would allow that cuz mine
16:18
wouldn't. I No, I would not, no.
16:20
OK, I would still yeah, the mine wants to yeah, yeah, yeah, we're
16:24
good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:25
I love that, you know, you didn't have YouTube and things
16:29
like that when you had all these.
16:31
I love these, you know, kids coming from UW lacrosse to help
16:34
out cuz there's a little bit like oh wow, they're really
16:36
stinking good. Oh, by the way, they're doing 40
16:37
twos and I got like, were you constantly picking their brain?
16:40
Cuz what? I'm always fast about is and
16:43
we're going to get to the point here soon about like what did
16:45
you think you're going to become?
16:46
Because most of us, 99% of all the guests we've had here did
16:50
not as as a high school or think I am going to be a track coach.
16:53
Some, some did somewhere, you know, track coach kids and
16:56
things like that who have a little bit more proclivity to
16:59
that. But most of us are thinking
17:00
we're going to go become doctors, firefighters, lawyers,
17:01
all that kind of stuff. But we know spoiler, you became
17:05
a checker. So I'm always wondering like,
17:06
oh, did you exhibit track coach kind of stuff like where you
17:09
like, I read every book or, you know, I was in the coach's
17:12
office every day. Hey, why do we do this trailer
17:14
drill? Why do we do that?
17:15
Anything like that with the the coaches or you're just like, OK,
17:18
you told me to run, I'll go run. Yeah.
17:20
So it's a few things come to mind when you ask that.
17:22
Yeah, sort of. It's just, yeah, tell me to go
17:24
run. I'll go run whatever the workout
17:26
is. Let's let's go do it.
17:27
Never really ask questions, you know, I, you know, never really
17:31
a student of the sport and at least in high school, you know,
17:34
just to do what you toll and go race and and the the one funny
17:39
thing that you said, and this is this is this is definitely on
17:42
the edge of silly. But you talked to, you know,
17:45
what is it that you know? Did you know you were going to
17:47
be a coach someday? And, and like you said, we'll
17:50
talk about that in a little bit, but I have again, one of those
17:52
little moments in time memories. I had to be first grade at the
17:58
oldest and maybe one of my first memories, But I remember there's
18:01
this big field behind our house and where kids would play.
18:05
There's a little playground, whatever.
18:06
And for whatever reason, we're running from one end to the
18:09
other end. And it might have been, looking
18:11
back, I don't know, 3-4 hundred meters in length.
18:13
And all the neighborhood kids were running.
18:15
And there's this little girl next to me a couple years
18:18
younger, maybe not keeping up, whatever.
18:20
And I just have this recollection of turning her and
18:22
saying run faster than you can, like just trying to coach this
18:26
little girl as a 7 year old, right?
18:29
It's I feel like it's my, my moment in time of people ask,
18:33
you know, did you ever be a coach?
18:35
Not, not really, other than maybe, you know, maybe when I'm,
18:39
you know, older and I have kids in high school, maybe I'll coach
18:41
high school or whatever, you know, never that inkling of
18:44
being a coach, but that little, little moment in time sticks out
18:47
to me. We typically fine 'cause, you
18:49
know, coaching is AI hesitate sometimes to say a very selfless
18:54
profession because I'm a little bit against.
18:57
There is selfishness that needs to happen as well.
18:59
Your own health, wealth, etcetera.
19:00
So that you can, you know, help help yourself so you can help
19:02
others. Kind of a philosophy.
19:04
But there is, it is different than being an accountant from
19:07
being a sales professional. It's actually very similar to
19:09
sales professional, but a principal business owner,
19:14
etcetera. There are little things like
19:16
that memory right there. There are little things along
19:18
the way even how you thought about caring about other
19:21
individuals like oh man, I wish so and so was a you could do
19:24
better in math or better court. What, you know, there's just
19:26
things that as a 141516 year old, it, it just registers like,
19:31
oh, well, that was my friend or I was being friendly.
19:33
And in reality it's like, oh, well, that's that's actually the
19:35
seedlings of what we do in track and field every day now as a
19:39
coach. So that's an interesting story.
19:41
I love that that little girl somewhere going, man, this kid
19:43
was crazy, told me to run faster than I could.
19:45
I don't know what he was talking about.
19:46
He didn't become no coach. He don't know what he's talking
19:47
about. No way whoever that little girl
19:50
was remembers that moment, right?
19:51
Those those moments in time. You know, I don't believe that
19:54
because the reverse could be true.
19:56
She's probably listen to this. She's on a podcast.
19:59
She's a she's a an accountant and she's on a podcast up for
20:02
accounts, because I'm sure those exist.
20:03
I don't listen to them, but I'm sure they exist.
20:05
And she's she's telling the host the story.
20:07
You know, this is odd memory. This this kid, he was a little
20:10
bit older than me. I don't even remember who he was
20:12
or what do we, I don't know everything, but he turns to me
20:14
and says the weirdest thing. He says run faster than you can.
20:16
And I was like, well, that's just dumb.
20:18
That doesn't compute to my analytical mind.
20:20
Are we talking about? I'm a little kid, you know what
20:21
I'm saying? And she goes, and that boy
20:23
doesn't remember. For that that little one offs
20:25
that you know what I'm saying? Like I guarantee you it's it's
20:27
not outside the run possibility. I should say that that that was
20:31
a memory for her, just like it was a memory for you.
20:34
I love that remember, remember memories are crazy.
20:36
We don't remember. We don't know exactly how they
20:38
all work. So it's odd what we sometimes
20:41
remember. OK, Were you on like the
20:46
education front? Where do you remember peppering
20:49
coaches about technique? I, I get that you didn't ask
20:51
like, because when you said like first day of practice was like
20:53
6-4 hundreds, I'm like, oh, you poor soul.
20:55
Like like I'm glad you survived and kept going and did another
20:59
hard one the next day, by the way, because there's the timing
21:02
of it. But but any like, like, you
21:06
know, hurdlers can be very technique focused, like, oh, you
21:10
know, were you like that Like and so you're asking questions
21:12
about where's arm placement, anything like that?
21:14
Or is it still just like natural movement?
21:16
I think I asked the questions I didn't know that I knew I should
21:18
ask any questions. I think just whatever they told
21:21
me I tried to do. And so, yeah, it was very
21:24
technical. You know, my college coach, he
21:26
told me once he's like, I don't know how you hurdle so fast with
21:28
this, as slow as your hundred time is.
21:30
And, you know, he he and a couple teammates have commented
21:33
on just my, my technical, you know, my technique was really
21:36
what, what, what stood out or made me successful.
21:39
Because stay in high school for me.
21:41
Because you were taught it or because it it was natural?
21:44
I think both. Yeah, yeah.
21:47
I mean, I was, I was taught it and it it again, maybe it goes
21:51
back to those, you know, stay here till I come back.
21:54
Maybe I did 1000 trailing drills that day and that's how I
21:58
learned to have a good trail. Like it could go back that far.
22:01
I don't, I don't know. My, my, my, say, my friend.
22:03
I wish I knew him. Malcolm Gladwell, his he came up
22:06
with, he helped bring up the term of the 10th out the rule of
22:09
10,000 hours. Yeah, maybe you have 10,000
22:11
hours of trailing. It's possible, yeah.
22:14
I love it. Any other sports?
22:18
You know, I I played baseball 2 summers as a little kid, wasn't
22:21
good at that. And you know, as far as high
22:25
school goes, I was fairly fast and I think the the high school
22:28
football coach would send out letters to anybody that was
22:32
maybe good in another sport. I don't know.
22:33
I got a letter every summer. Never did it.
22:35
And I played football in 8th grade and did not have a good
22:38
experience so I wasn't planning on doing it again.
22:40
And and so, you know, spring of junior year had a good track
22:44
season and so got the letter from the I'm a football coach
22:48
and and I had previously been in band and I love playing, you
22:51
know, band for football games, whatever inside.
22:53
I wasn't in band senior year. And so I get that letter and and
22:57
the football team was was O and nine my junior year and I get
23:00
that letter and I'm like, well, I'm really not can't catch very
23:03
good. I'm not, never really played
23:05
football, but I can't make the team any worse.
23:08
Worse, the worst. That could happen, yeah.
23:12
And worst that could happen is I'm on the sidelines and I cheer
23:14
on the team and you know, whatever.
23:17
And so get to 1st day or uniform check out or whatever, we're
23:21
getting numbers or whatever. And coach said some of what
23:25
position? And I said, so I, you know, I'm
23:27
pretty fast, maybe defensive back.
23:29
I'm catch very well. He's like, no, you're your wide
23:31
receiver. I'm like.
23:32
Oh, OK, Did you not hear me, Sir?
23:34
I said. I can't catch.
23:35
Very. Yes, I, I think all he knew was
23:37
that I was fast and, and then what was going to happen was I
23:41
was going to play wide receiver. So I kind of feel bad for the
23:43
guy that I, I took his spot, but I ended up being able to be the
23:46
starting wide receiver that senior year.
23:50
And the thing was we had probably one of the best running
23:52
backs in the state. So we ran the ball 99 times out
23:55
of 100. I think we had one receiving
23:57
touchdown the whole year and. That's why he's receivers like,
24:01
yeah, we're going to make people think we're going to throw.
24:03
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, the quarterback and I
24:06
just couldn't connect and practice.
24:08
He'd under throw me and then meet, see their games.
24:11
He'd overthrow me. And I think he just got so
24:13
jacked during games that he just launches it and and we just
24:17
could never connect. But yeah, so that was really,
24:20
that was really it. And I, I was, I'm glad for that
24:24
experience because it just really taught me just the value
24:27
of camaraderie and they're just football.
24:30
It's just, it's just different. And, and definitely taught me,
24:34
you know, another good lesson. I got halfway through the season
24:38
and I just remember getting to 7th or 8th hour in the school
24:41
day and just dreading just being like, just don't want to go to
24:45
football today. And had this teammate, Chad
24:49
Dwyer and every single day would walk out of the locker room or
24:52
walk outside the school building.
24:54
And I remember again, this one memory being behind him.
24:57
He had his helmet. He throws helmet up in the air
24:59
and and just like shell like it's a beautiful day for
25:01
football literally every day. And so this one day I'm sitting
25:05
in in English class that seventh hour and just being like, don't
25:09
want him to football. And something clicked at that
25:11
moment of just attitude, right. And it's like, you know what,
25:14
Why am I doing this? If I'm not going to enjoy it?
25:17
Why, why do it? And so for whatever reason, at
25:20
that moment, I decided, I decided, you know what, no, I'm
25:25
going to flip the switch and have a good attitude about it.
25:28
And so as soon as I'd have that negative thought, I'd say, Nope,
25:32
I'm, it's a beautiful day for football.
25:34
And so I just made that switch and for the rest of the season,
25:38
I, I loved it. And, and I've, I've used that
25:40
story with my athletes all the time.
25:42
I, I tell them that your, your mind can, can, you can trick
25:45
yourself into a lot of things. And just from the, the
25:48
standpoint of you think you've done your last Rep and you can't
25:50
do any more. You know, no, don't buy it.
25:53
You can do it. Or you know, what are you know,
25:55
your, your people say choose your attitude.
25:57
I don't really use that phrase, but just that idea that, you
26:00
know, you got to decide, you know, what kind of attitude, you
26:04
know, it's going to, it's going to rain or snow at the meet
26:06
today. You know, you got to choose, you
26:08
know, to be like, it doesn't matter.
26:09
It's going to rain on everybody else too, and so you know you've
26:13
got it. You just got to go compete.
26:14
That's really interesting. I thought you were going in the
26:17
direction of like like I was going to commend you for your
26:19
maturity level and maybe still I will.
26:21
We'll see. Meaning like you were like, hey,
26:24
you know, life is short. Why am I doing something that I
26:27
don't enjoy? Because it's optional.
26:28
It's not like, well, I can get out of math class because I
26:30
don't enjoy math, but you got to take math.
26:31
It's like football. You don't have to play, but I
26:34
but I did enjoy track, so I stayed with track you, but which
26:37
would have been commendable. You know, why play a sport or an
26:41
extra particular activity that you don't enjoy because you're
26:43
and I'm not hearing this in your story, but because mom wants
26:45
your dad wants you or because peer pressure is a teen and
26:48
things like that. But yours is a little bit
26:50
different and maybe better in the sense of you saw that from
26:55
your friend Chad and was like, Oh, if I if it sounds weird to
27:00
say trick myself, but if I at least start with the positive
27:04
attitude, it might get better and it and it did.
27:07
That's really interesting. Yeah.
27:12
Those feelings of not really loving to play in football, did
27:15
you compare those? Like, was there ever a time
27:18
where you're like, man, I'm not, I'm kind of dreading going out
27:20
there. Did you ever compare that to
27:22
like, oh, you know, when it's the 7th, 8th period and it's
27:24
track season, I can't wait to get out there.
27:27
Did you ever like that thought as a 1617 year old kid?
27:31
I don't know that I ever thought that, but yeah, I absolutely
27:33
loved that. There was never a day that I
27:35
said track practice. Oh man.
27:38
I've just always loved training and practice and hurdling and
27:42
being around my teammates and there's never been a day I.
27:46
Love that, that's cool. That I recall not looking
27:48
forward to it. So you're a senior, you played
27:51
football in the fall, you have your senior year track season.
27:55
We start thinking about college, talk to us about that process,
27:59
how the actual process of picking a school.
28:02
Did you run in in college? You know, again, most of most of
28:05
us don't. It's a very if you run in
28:07
college. I know probably the majority of
28:09
people that listen and are on the show are did college
28:14
athletics in some form or fashion.
28:15
I did not, by the way. And so we kind of think it's
28:18
commonplace. We got to remember it's like
28:20
less than 7% of high school track athletes go on to do it is
28:24
still a fraternity of this bit small.
28:27
So so I have no if you said no, I didn't run college track, but
28:31
no judgement there. And at the same time as you're,
28:34
you're telling us that the the recruiting towards college
28:39
journey. What were you as a senior in
28:41
high school? What were you thinking?
28:43
I'm going to go major in X because I'm going to become AY
28:46
or maybe you're like a lot of 1718 year old kids are like, I
28:49
have no clue. I just know I'm going to
28:50
college. Yeah, I know a couple, couple
28:52
stories there. So I had no interest in going to
28:56
college. I had three different.
28:59
Yeah, no, I I had three, three different military service,
29:05
whatever recruiters over to the house.
29:07
Wow. Try to decide if I wanted to.
29:09
History of military in the family.
29:12
No 0, you. Just were like, if I'm not going
29:14
to college, I'm going military. I I don't know why.
29:17
I don't know why that appealed to me.
29:19
I don't know if it's just the 7th, you know, the, the
29:22
testosterone, a 17 year old boy wanting to shoot guns and you
29:26
know, you know, you know, when I there was no thought like what I
29:29
know about the Army now, like there's just thousands of jobs.
29:32
When you're 17, you're like, yeah, you go to the Army and you
29:33
shoot guns like that's or, or you go to the Air Force and you
29:38
fly The Jets. Like, you don't know that
29:39
there's a thousand other jobs in the Air Force, right?
29:41
So you had Army, Air Force and. Maybe I don't want to be on a
29:46
boat. OK, that's.
29:48
Yeah, so, but I thought I'd want to be a Marine.
29:49
But then they're like, yeah, that's how you travels on boats.
29:51
Right, I'll see you little boat brother.
29:53
The army travels in planes. Let's do the army.
29:56
And and so was kind of going down that road and at some point
30:01
I was like, yeah, but then I can't do track anymore.
30:04
And I remember the Army guy being like, no, no, you can do
30:06
track in the Army. And then I'm like, yeah,
30:08
that'll. Sound right?
30:11
And so at some point, I don't know if it was spring of junior
30:14
year or summer before I, I don't know when this happened, but at
30:18
some point I'm like, no, I, I want to, I want to run.
30:22
So I was, you know, people asked what you go to school for.
30:25
And I say, I went to school for track.
30:26
I was just there long enough that they gave me a degree.
30:29
When you were thinking, because so this was junior in before
30:33
junior you were thinking military, any pressure from
30:36
parents of like what are you? No, no, you need to go to
30:38
college, son or family, anything.
30:40
One of the things I, I value most about my parents is they
30:44
never, you know, my dad was a three sport high school athlete.
30:47
Never once did they push me into doing sports.
30:51
Never once did they push me into band or anything.
30:54
They, they let me know of opportunities and then I, I
30:58
choose them. But no, there was never a you're
31:01
going to college neither. I mean, my, my dad went straight
31:04
into the workforce. My mom went to college for a
31:06
year or two and then ended up working for a dad.
31:10
So it's not, you know, we weren't, you know, several
31:12
generations college family, right?
31:16
So no, there's no, no pressure about any, any of those things.
31:21
And so, yeah, so at some point it was, yeah, I just really want
31:26
to run in college. I had no interest in going away.
31:29
I literally did not tour any schools.
31:31
I didn't look into any schools. UWL was 10 minutes from my
31:35
house, but I I couldn't have driven there if you put me in a
31:37
car and said, let's go to UWL and no reason to go to lacrosse.
31:41
Everything I needed was in my town, right?
31:42
Shopping and school and whatever.
31:45
And, and I didn't even know that they were good, to be honest
31:49
with you. I had no clue.
31:50
I just knew that they had a track team and I was going to do
31:53
finance was the major I landed on.
31:55
They had those things and so. I no idea.
32:02
I have a. Picture you know, when you
32:04
graduate high school, they give you this packet of stuff they've
32:06
collected over the years of like stuff you did in elementary
32:09
school, middle school, whatever. And I get handed this, this a
32:12
packet of stuff. And in this packet was a picture
32:15
from 2nd grade that you're supposed to draw what you want
32:18
to be when you grow up. And mine was a picture of a dude
32:20
in a suit behind a desk. No.
32:24
Way. No idea why.
32:25
And yeah, no idea. And so at some point I thought
32:29
stocks and bonds and investing would be cool.
32:31
I don't know. And so I was going to do finance
32:34
at lacrosse. I didn't know that they were any
32:36
good. So this would have been, you
32:37
know, lacrosse one. They had 187 and 88, but they
32:40
really started their dynasty 919293 and 94.
32:44
They won four indoors in a row and then three outdoors.
32:48
Yeah. And I had no idea.
32:50
And so this would have been, you know, 95 just after that, you
32:53
know, string of winds had started.
32:55
And and so I had no idea they were any good until I get a
32:59
letter in the mail and on the corner of the the envelope, it
33:03
says National Champions 878891929394.
33:07
I'm like, Dang, that's kind of cool.
33:09
And I, I had already decided in my mind I was going there.
33:11
I don't even know if I'd talked to Coach Guthrie yet.
33:13
I just, that's where I was going to school.
33:15
And yeah, so finance, for whatever reason, I don't know.
33:21
And like I said, I was going there for track and that was
33:26
that. And you were this sounds a
33:29
little odd because I'm not hearing like Guthrie recruited
33:32
you necessarily like the new year.
33:34
I mean, eventually you got letter, but like, were you good
33:36
enough to to be on the UW team? And what I mean by that is, you
33:39
know, because we don't talk times.
33:42
You could have been a 22nd 110. I heard, I think I was about a
33:44
22nd 110 guy. I was sucked, meaning you
33:47
probably not good enough for UW lacrosse, but you were like it
33:51
was. Junior year when coaches, you
33:54
know, back in the day when all you could do is send out
33:56
letters, right? And I, I was getting letters
33:58
from different schools. And, and so I, I don't know if I
34:02
just assumed I was good enough. I don't really know.
34:06
You know, the University of Wisconsin had sent me a letter.
34:09
And so I was like, OK, I, I never even considered going to a
34:12
visit. I knew I wasn't going to go
34:14
there and yeah, I don't know if my coach told me I was good
34:18
enough. I thought maybe since I was at
34:20
state I was good enough. I I really don't.
34:22
Know yeah, that's a good barometer yeah if I'm at state
34:24
cuz you know as a high schooler, that's what you're trying to get
34:26
to a state that's still everybody knows that's a big
34:28
meet whether you are still not that great or not if you go to
34:32
state that's a big deal. So the state's kind of like
34:35
you're like, oh, OK, well, if I went to state, I can go
34:37
somewhere like cuz it doesn't even sound like you really know,
34:40
because again, this is before it.
34:41
This is, it's hard to investigate other schools in 96.
34:45
And you know, I Google and heck, I can have GPT tell me the
34:48
difference between UW lacrosse, UW Madison and Winona State.
34:51
You know, it gives me this analysis that is just not
34:53
existent 96. So makes a lot of sense that
34:55
you're like, yeah, you know why I went to lacrosse?
34:56
It was right there that have been 10 minutes from Madison.
34:58
I might have ended up going to Madison.
34:59
I don't know. You know, that makes a lot of
35:01
sense. Yeah.
35:02
And you go away from finance? Yeah.
35:04
So when I got there, I don't remember, at some point early in
35:07
the fall freshman year maybe I found out how good the team was
35:11
and found out not everybody makes the team and.
35:14
Oh, and you said hold on you. You had throughout high school,
35:17
you said you had UW lacrosse hurdlers coming over to coach.
35:20
So you kind of had an idea too, because I'm sure you're talking
35:23
to those kids. And like, I, I, I don't think
35:26
so. No, you had to have asked like,
35:28
hey, so like, what are you running the one to you?
35:31
I don't think so, really. I mean, maybe I I don't, I don't
35:34
know. I don't recall anything like
35:37
that. I just thought they were our
35:38
coaches. That's that's interesting.
35:41
OK, All right, keep going, keep going.
35:42
That's interesting. Yeah, no.
35:44
And I'm sorry, I have this recollection of early that fall,
35:48
maybe realizing how good the team was.
35:51
Matter of fact, I remember just yesterday we were waiting for
35:54
the eligibility meeting at the beginning of the year, and we're
35:57
in the room and I remember, you know, a room full of, you know,
36:00
college guys with egos. I just remember Guthrie being
36:03
like, all right, while we're waiting, how many of you guys
36:06
stand up if you're in the state meet and everybody stands up?
36:09
All right, stay standing If you are state champ, you know.
36:13
All right, stand up if you have been to the national.
36:16
Team, did you stand up? Were you?
36:18
No, I was remember. This room full of guys, Yeah.
36:20
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, how many of you are state
36:22
champs? How many of you are to the
36:24
national need? How many all Americans, how many
36:25
national champions? And so you're looking around the
36:27
room going. Holy wow, this is.
36:30
A lot of guys who've had a lot of success.
36:32
And so I don't know if it was after that, but I remember
36:34
asking Guthrie one day, like, am I going to make the team?
36:37
And I just sort of a pat on the bat, like kind of laughing like
36:40
you're going to make the team. I'm like OK, so.
36:44
What's interesting about that story there, Mason, is that you,
36:50
you might not have ever thought about this, but you know, I
36:52
think about these things because this is what I do for a living.
36:55
You, that was a fork in the road, even though you don't
36:58
necessarily maybe think of that as a fork in the road.
37:00
You easily could have quit the team that night, the next day
37:04
because of intimidation. Like, holy, wait a minute.
37:07
I made the state meet. I thought that was a big deal,
37:08
which it was. But all of these dudes made the
37:12
state meet. And when he said, hey, if you're
37:14
a state champion, stay standing up.
37:16
I had to sit down and there were still a lot.
37:18
Of people. Did you stay standing up?
37:21
Shut up. Come on.
37:24
And then when it's like, how many of you guys are all
37:26
Americans? And then, you know, more people
37:27
sit down, but still there's a lot of people standing up.
37:29
And then you're like, which one? You guys are national champs
37:31
'cause they had national champs. And there's still, you know, not
37:34
one more than one is standing up.
37:35
And you're like, like you could have easily been like, oh, wait
37:39
a minute, I'm a little out of my depth here.
37:41
I'm going to go become a student or something.
37:43
But you. Didn't know I knew what I knew
37:44
what I wanted to do and I knew I wanted to be there.
37:46
And you know, I, I don't think there was ever a thought of not
37:49
doing it. Yeah, yeah.
37:50
But that, that's what I'm saying for you.
37:52
You don't realize there was a fork in the road because you
37:54
only saw one side of that. Yeah, I'm going on there was
37:57
that that option, that that story, the other side, this
38:00
multiverse, if you will, of, you know, saying, hey, I'm
38:02
intimidated. I'm not doing this.
38:04
That absolutely happens every day on college campuses, on high
38:07
school teams, when the coach says, hey, it's your first day,
38:10
we're going to do 6 by 400. Whoa, wait a minute, I can't do
38:13
1400. What are you talking about?
38:15
I'll just go play pickleball or baseball or whatever.
38:18
You're not equating those two. By the way, if you're a baseball
38:20
player, don't get mad at me. But that's what's interesting to
38:22
me is that that, that it to you, it wasn't a fork in the road.
38:25
You're like, no, no, I knew what I was doing.
38:27
I'm I didn't see another path. This is the path I was going on.
38:30
So how did, how did that work out?
38:32
How? Do I work out?
38:34
Be on the team? Yeah, it's awesome.
38:36
I mean, it's best best experience ever.
38:38
I mean, I wish I say this in coaching and recruiting.
38:40
I wish every 18 year old got a chance to be a college athlete
38:44
just because of, you know, both what I've seen as an athlete and
38:47
as coach. Everything you you learn, it's
38:49
just who it makes how it makes you as a person, all the lessons
38:52
you learn about failure. And I just you know, a little
38:55
tangent. I just know how many companies
38:57
out there actively seek out former college athletes because
39:01
you know, if you're a four point O college student that's never
39:04
failed at anything, certainly at some point in your career,
39:07
something's not going to go well.
39:09
And do you know how to handle that?
39:11
And employers know that college athlete, they certainly had
39:15
failure at some point. There's no way they never
39:17
failed. And whether it's injury, whether
39:21
it's losing a race, losing a game, losing, whatever, at some
39:24
point you failed and you had to learn how to deal with that.
39:27
And so just all of the things you learn, you know, from being
39:32
an athlete. I I wish every 18 year old had a
39:35
chance to be a college athlete. Yeah, I agree with that.
39:38
There's a lot of resilience. I love how you said that even
39:42
the greatest athlete, a baton drops in a relay, misses a pass,
39:48
strikes out, etcetera. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's
39:51
a good point. Did you stay financed the whole
39:53
time? Yeah, yeah, I think I, I think I
39:56
just, you know, knew that I thought, you know, finance,
40:00
whatever, investment stocks, bonds, that kind of thing.
40:03
I'm also the kind of person that I'm, I'm very single minded
40:07
about things. You know that they say
40:11
psychologists will say that human nature once we've decided
40:13
on something, it's hard to change our get us to change our
40:16
own mind because then that's like admitting we were wrong.
40:19
So like, if you've decided in your mind I want to buy this
40:21
particular car, even though a different car might be better
40:24
for you, or something even more simple, you've decided you want
40:27
to go somewhere for lunch. And someone's trying to talk you
40:29
into something else. It's, it's hard to get us to
40:32
change our mind because that's admitting that we were wrong
40:34
about a decision we made. And so I've, I think I'm very
40:37
much that way. I mean, I, I don't know.
40:40
I mean, I've been in the same job for 22 years.
40:42
I, I, I, you know, you said football, I could have quit, but
40:47
that never crossed my mind. It wasn't, it wasn't quit.
40:49
It was change, change something to make it better.
40:53
So I don't know if I'm just actually committed to things or.
40:57
Has that ever bitten you in the butt before?
40:59
What? Being committed to something?
41:02
Yeah, I. Don't even know how to say it
41:03
because I don't necessarily want to say committed but I don't
41:05
want to say single minded either but that.
41:08
I'm sure it has. I'm sure.
41:09
I'm sure I've held on to something longer than necessary.
41:13
I don't know. I mean have to close that where
41:15
are older than my athletes and I mean this.
41:19
Fashion sense. It has bitten you the butt.
41:21
I got it. Yeah, no, no, see.
41:23
So that's the other thing is I'm, I'm very adamant about, I
41:26
don't, I don't like trends. I like things that are timeless.
41:29
And so I don't I if something is trendy, I don't like it because
41:32
I know it's going to change at some point and will no longer be
41:35
trendy anymore. So are you still listening to
41:37
music from the 90s and. Oh, stop it like you don't.
41:42
It's another thing. It's it's another psychology.
41:45
Wait, hey, this is my show. How dare you call me out?
41:48
I'm just telling you that all of us are are whatever was the
41:51
music of our coming of age. That's what we is the best.
41:55
I literally ask anyone whatever your coming of age time was.
41:59
OK, that's the. That's the best to you, We.
42:01
Were the 200% bro come on I have been to a concert series called
42:07
the I love the 90s tour probably 15 times so yeah but my admitted
42:12
you know everybody knows this Mason.
42:14
My favorite musical artist is Vanilla Ice, so.
42:17
Yeah, you're. Gonna say that yeah I know I
42:19
know I don't say 90s yeah that's what I'm saying I.
42:21
Was like, I know Vanilla Ice is on that tour and he's gonna say
42:24
Vanilla Ice is his favorite. I knew you were gonna say that.
42:26
Bro do you not know this? Hold on, I hope this will.
42:29
If you're listening this will not do anything for you.
42:32
But if you're watching on YouTube and most of you guys
42:34
have seen this. There you go, see exactly.
42:39
So on those 15 ish, whatever times I've been in the concert,
42:43
I've been on stage with Rob every time for the so yeah,
42:47
absolutely. I'm with you.
42:48
That was going to be my barometer.
42:49
Where are you at, Vanilla Ice? Because that tells me this
42:52
interview is over. Or Oh yeah, we can continue
42:54
going. Where you at?
42:54
One to 1010 being the greatest musical.
42:56
Artist Rob Van Winkle right 100% baby in high school in the 90s
42:59
know his real name. Where's he at?
43:01
One through 1010 being the greatest artist ever?
43:02
One being terrible? Where?
43:04
Where do you? Where do you put Vanilla Ice?
43:06
I don't know, I mean, if the song comes on, I'm going to
43:08
listen to. It OK, that's good enough, as
43:09
long as you don't say, well yeah, the song comes on, who
43:11
cares? If it's on our playlist to
43:13
practice and the kids skip it, I'm and be like what do you
43:16
think? Skipping the gets soft. 100%
43:18
absolutely that you know what you're you're a great coach just
43:21
for that alone base and that's all I need to hear.
43:23
I don't care about your technique and motivational
43:25
skills You you that's perfect right there.
43:27
I love that OK, love that. So where does and does it happen
43:34
in college? Where does cuz spoiler you do
43:37
be? You don't go to stocks and bonds
43:38
at least you're not today. Maybe you did right out of
43:40
college. We'll find that out.
43:41
Where does and how does track and field coaching become like,
43:46
oh, wait a minute, maybe that's what I can be as a profession.
43:50
Oh man, great question. And then I've thought about that
43:55
a few times and I don't the conversation that comes to my
43:58
mind, It might be that moment, but as I tell the conversation,
44:03
I realize I must have thought about it before that moment or
44:08
so. I don't know.
44:10
The short answer is I don't know when or how or why it became a
44:13
thing, so I'll have to actually hold off on that conversation
44:18
for a minute because there's moments before that as.
44:22
You're thinking about that, Mason.
44:23
Yeah. I, I, I love the way I'm
44:24
watching you think there's through this process.
44:28
I think when I asked that question, because there's other
44:31
similar type questions where people think it's like a light
44:33
switch is like, Oh yeah, you know what?
44:35
June 1st 22,000 my coach gave me told me to lead the warm up
44:40
click. I knew I was going to be a track
44:41
coach. I actually think for most of us
44:44
for most of our different kinds of careers too, but for
44:46
coaching, I think it's more of like that slider button on your
44:49
light. So instead of a light switch on
44:50
and off, it's like, oh, you know, first there was no
44:52
thought. So it was completely off.
44:53
And then it was like, oh, you know, I some people, it's, it's
44:56
amazing to me and weirdly amazing even though it's
44:59
happened to be in my in front of my life as well, even though
45:02
we're in track and field, which means we've have coaches.
45:05
You had a middle school coach, you had a high school coach, you
45:07
have college coaches. A lot of us don't even realize
45:10
that, Oh, that's a profession that dude or do that in front of
45:13
me is getting paid. Like I just thought they just
45:15
like track and field and like coaching it.
45:17
Oh, wait a minute, Maybe that means I could be that.
45:20
So I think as you're thinking that through, it's actually a
45:22
slider button, yeah. I saw recruits from parents all
45:26
the time that, you know, especially if they're undecided
45:29
on their major, that as an 18 year old, there's only so many
45:32
things you know of for jobs, right?
45:34
Doctor, lawyer, nurse, teacher. There's only so many things you
45:37
know of. And then you get to college and
45:39
you find out, oh, this is the thing.
45:41
Oh, yeah, that's what I want to do.
45:43
Or you're 30 years old. You're like, wait a minute, I
45:45
can do that. Yeah.
45:46
Yeah. I think, you know, this.
45:48
The slider. The slider moment when it went
45:50
from zero to 1. I'd gotten laid off from my job.
45:53
I worked in retirement planning for four years.
45:55
Oh, hold on. So not in college.
46:00
So in college you're just doing your athlete thing and doing
46:03
your finance thing. I'm gonna.
46:05
Wow. Not at all in college.
46:07
No, like, you know what? Guthrie's because I mean, I know
46:08
Guthrie's. He's an amazing dude.
46:10
No, like, yeah, that guy's pretty.
46:11
He looks like he has a good life.
46:12
Maybe none of that at all. Well, not even because you had
46:17
the experience of U Double L, you know, lacrosse kids coming
46:20
to coach you a little bit in high school.
46:22
Did you do any of that? No, the only, the only thing I
46:25
ever thought, like I said, was maybe someday, you know, if I
46:28
had kids in high school, I'd maybe, you know, help coach the
46:31
high school team. You.
46:32
Didn't coach a camp during undergraduate I mean.
46:37
I think I was there, Guthrie had learned.
46:38
Seagrave come to do a camp summer after freshman year.
46:42
And I was there for that. But I, I don't remember
46:45
coaching. I just remember being there.
46:48
Yeah. So no, the, the, the moment that
46:50
it went. Yeah.
46:51
So out of college, I worked at a retirement planning place in the
46:54
summer and that was able to turn into a full time.
46:58
I literally, I graduated on a Sunday and started full time on
47:01
Monday. So I worked in retirement
47:03
planning for four years and. During that four years, where is
47:08
not coaching you're? I'm slowly interrupting you to
47:13
telling the story. Where is track?
47:15
Yeah. Are you still?
47:16
Are you watching the Olympics? Are you trying to catch track on
47:18
TV at all? Are you paying attention to your
47:20
high school team or your college team?
47:21
Where's track in that lat 4? Years.
47:23
So although I graduated, I didn't want to be done running.
47:27
I said I love hurdling and so I trained myself for another year
47:33
and a half, indoor, outdoor, indoor, so for a year and a half
47:38
and my goal was to make the Olympic trials, so.
47:42
I I lied and said I never asked people.
47:44
PRS. What was your PR out of college?
47:47
Well, I ran 1435 at lacrosse and then 1428 the next year.
47:51
What made? Don't take this in because you
47:54
know. Yeah, what made me think I
47:55
could? Make Yeah, thank you.
47:57
Thank you for asking that question for me.
47:58
Yeah, yeah. I think, I think, yeah.
48:00
So I don't know if it was the US championships or the Olympic
48:02
trials, but the year I looked at it was like 1380.
48:05
And I'm like, OK, that's the goal.
48:08
Let's run 1380. That's fair.
48:09
And I was injured a lot in college and so I felt like there
48:13
was more in the tank. And so, yeah, so I worked 8:00
48:17
to 5:00 or 8:00 to 4:30 and, and I'd get to the track as UW LS
48:21
guys were getting done. And so I just would train on my
48:24
own and I was able to get in. Nothing was going on in the
48:26
field house in the winter. So I they're on my own.
48:29
And you're in town working that job.
48:31
Yeah, yeah. I don't fault like, you know,
48:34
that's not an uncommon story. A143 kid or you know, a 10, 20
48:39
kid in the hundred goes, you know, I wanted to try to make
48:42
the trial and it's like, bro, you're not even in Track World.
48:44
We know. It's like you're not even close
48:46
here. But like I support that.
48:50
It's just like I support a college football player that
48:53
says, hey, I'm gonna go try the AFL or the Canadian League
48:57
because I want to try out and you know, my dream is the NFL.
48:59
It's like, you know, if you don't do it now as a 22 ish year
49:02
old, you certainly ain't going to do it as a 32 year old.
49:05
But you know what you can do as a 32 year old?
49:07
You can go into retirement planning as a 32 year old.
49:10
You know what I'm saying? So, so, so when I say that, it
49:13
was more like like, Oh my God, did you run like 13813 seven?
49:15
Like, bro, that's you know, that's that's, that's amazing.
49:17
So that's. Interesting.
49:19
I think the other part is, like I said, I loved it so much.
49:22
So you know, like when when my athletes, you know, I have
49:24
sprinter jumper hurdlers, when they graduate, they get into to
49:27
marathon running. It's like wide world because
49:31
they want to be competitive at something.
49:33
They they they've been competitive forever and this is
49:36
something they can be competitive.
49:38
And so for me, I was still able to do it.
49:40
It's hard to, it's hard to to be a post collegiate sprinter,
49:44
hurdler, jumper. If you're not elite, sub elite,
49:47
yeah, there's no, I can go do a marathon every weekend in the
49:50
country. Where in the world would a guy
49:52
like we do 100 meter dash? Yeah.
49:54
So, yeah, so I just knew I loved it and and, you know, UW host a
49:59
few home meets every year, so I ran one or two indoor meets and
50:02
a couple of outdoor meets. But I love training so much that
50:05
it was, it was just as much about getting out and training
50:08
and hurdling and practice as it was competing and so.
50:12
A nerd would track like so now do you know who all the no still
50:15
not. I I want to be.
50:17
I try to be. It's not time.
50:19
I mean, I, I mean and, and I only, we only have a women's
50:22
team. I don't coach men so I half the
50:23
time I forget the men's track is even things I'm.
50:25
Sorry, stay in that time period during College, in this four
50:28
years, did you become like, I knew all the I knew who the
50:30
Olympic champ was and all that kind of stuff.
50:32
No, that that was what I would say is now I know a lot more,
50:36
you know, but but it's only because I coach women.
50:39
And so I pay attention to the women at the elite level, what
50:41
they're doing and, or athletes that I know, you know, that
50:45
we're in our conference or whatever that have gone on to
50:47
big things or whatever. So, yeah.
50:51
So no, I, I, I don't know that I was particularly a track fan.
50:56
I just love to train and, and wanted to compete and, you know,
51:00
so you have to have a goal out there, right?
51:02
Who wants to train with no goal, you know?
51:04
And so the goal is Olympic trials.
51:06
I was telling my athletes those outcome goals are what motivate
51:09
you to do the hard things. And so that was the outcome that
51:12
I was working towards that got me to work hard in the weight
51:14
room or, or whatever. And so I would just go train and
51:18
while I was working the job. And and so four years later, I
51:22
got laid off in in June, I think it was.
51:25
And so I was unemployed a little bit at that point in time.
51:30
I thought I might want to be a high school teacher.
51:32
So I thought, you know, it was I was fine that I got laid off.
51:35
I didn't really want to be in that job anymore anyway.
51:37
And I thought, let's maybe pursue teaching.
51:39
And so that next fall, I was substitute teaching where I went
51:43
to high school. And they get out really early in
51:45
the afternoon. They're done at like 2:30.
51:47
And I was like, well, shoot, that's early enough.
51:50
Maybe, you know, I could go coach.
51:52
I don't know why I thought that. So I called up Guthrie.
51:55
I was like, hey, do you, can I come by and help coach the
51:57
hurdles? And he's like, yeah, come on
51:59
over. So I came and coached the guys.
52:01
Why Guthrie at UW Lacrosse and not at your high school?
52:07
Because high school doesn't happen in the fall, in the
52:10
winter. OK, so this is fall.
52:12
I want a coach. I know I'm.
52:13
I know Guthrie's doing it. We don't do this until March or
52:16
April here. OK, OK, got it.
52:18
Got it. I suppose that maybe that's why
52:20
I don't. Know I'm always curious because
52:22
like when I got into coaching, as I played football and ran
52:26
track and when I was in college, there was a high school like
52:29
literally right out my fraternity house doors, windows,
52:33
training houses, windows. And I remember calling up the
52:35
high school track coach and that changed my life that that got me
52:38
into coaching. And sometimes I think, why
52:39
didn't I call the football coach?
52:40
And you know, I could be $1,000,000 coordinator and I
52:42
have no idea. I also could be you have a heart
52:44
attack and died by now too, But you know, if I'd have gone that
52:46
other route, but so I'm just curious like that that's me was
52:49
again a fork. Maybe the left side wasn't even
52:53
existent because there's no fall practice.
52:55
But you you could have called the football coach in high
52:58
school and been like, Hey, I played receiver.
53:01
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. so-called Guthrie
53:04
and he said, yeah, come on over. So I started working with the
53:07
guys and then I realized the women's coach, who wasn't really
53:10
a hurdle guy, was working with the women hurdlers.
53:12
And so I asked him, I'm like, hey, some of the programs.
53:16
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still today?
53:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, so I started
53:22
working with the women like, I don't know, guys was Monday,
53:25
Wednesdays, the ladies were Tuesday, Thursdays.
53:27
And and then come January, my boss was like, hey, economy is
53:33
better, things are picking up, we can bring you back.
53:36
The retirement The retirement planning boss.
53:38
Yeah, yeah. And so in the meantime, I
53:40
realized that I didn't want to be a teacher.
53:41
I enjoyed to teaching. I was fine.
53:45
And just realized that wasn't what I wanted to do.
53:49
And so I was asked if I wanted to come back.
53:52
I said yeah, but I'm really liking coaching.
53:55
Can I, can I leave early in the day to keep coaching?
53:58
He goes, yeah, cool, no problem. So that was awesome.
54:01
So I went back to work. I was making money again and got
54:05
to keep coaching. And so that that season
54:09
progresses and season gets over and going through the summer and
54:14
Coach Healy, the women's coach, and I, for whatever reason, that
54:17
had butted heads on some things. I don't recall what it was that
54:20
I don't remember what happened, but that August just kind of
54:26
wanted to go and talk to him and just kind of apologize for
54:29
whatever my part was in that and see if you wanted me to coach
54:32
again. And so walking down the hallway,
54:35
it's August. No one's around, right?
54:37
It's still summertime. And so I walked down the hallway
54:39
to his office and open the door and, and he goes, before I even
54:43
sit down, he goes, Hey, Mason, Winona State needs a track
54:46
coach. You should apply and I laughed
54:48
and I was like, well, that's that's that's funny.
54:52
Finance degree and and no experience.
54:54
They they wouldn't hire me. And he's like, all right, cool,
54:56
whatever. So we sit down and talk for an
54:58
hour, work things out. You know, we worked out the plan
55:00
for the year coaching again. And as I leave, he's like, no,
55:04
seriously, you should you should apply one on state.
55:06
I'm like, yeah, good one. And so head.
55:08
Head or assistant coach? What that went on state the head
55:12
coach was open, Yeah. Why?
55:14
Yeah. OK, why that that is
55:17
interesting. It's one thing where you are
55:20
experience wise at this point, but you and so maybe you're a
55:24
leap away from experienced enough to become a full time
55:28
college. Maybe maybe you know, we've seen
55:30
plenty of people who have no experience start college and
55:32
they become great. You are maybe several steps from
55:36
becoming a head coach of a four. I mean that, what was that you
55:41
think? Why he said that he probably
55:45
knew when on state was desperate, I mean.
55:48
How far is Winona from from this?
55:50
Half hour. OK, so it's also within like,
55:53
oh, someone doesn't have to relocate.
55:54
Like you could just go there tomorrow.
55:56
Yeah. Wow.
55:57
OK. And you were like, this is
55:59
crazy. Yeah, yeah, of course.
56:01
So I'm walking down, I'm walking down the hall and I mean, as, as
56:07
I tell the story, I basically, I'm going to just tell you it
56:09
was the hand of God that got me to this job.
56:12
It's there's several things that people might say are a
56:15
coincidence. And then I don't, I don't
56:17
believe that there are coincidences and.
56:19
So I spell coincidence. God, I'm with you.
56:22
There you go. And so I'm walking down the hall
56:23
to get out of the building. Again, no one's in the building
56:26
except I walked by this door that's open.
56:28
And Kim Bloom is is there. And she was the head coach at
56:33
Winona State prior. She's the one that left, that
56:36
the job was open and she's now the at that point was the
56:39
assistant athletic director. She was a grand.
56:41
She went from Winona as the head track coach over to the.
56:45
Assistant athletic director at. That's what opened up that
56:47
position, OK. And she?
56:49
Did not know her, I assume before so.
56:50
She was a grad assistant at lacrosse my freshman year, so we
56:54
were aware of each other. I would never say I know her,
56:57
but I knew who she was and I would say she knew who I was.
57:00
But that was about all. And so she's like, hey, Mason
57:05
when I was staying, needs the head coach.
57:06
You should apply. I'm like, Nah, I, I don't have
57:09
any. You know, you're a volunteer.
57:11
I'm a finance guy. They wouldn't hire me.
57:13
And she goes, no, I, I, I'll call the AD.
57:17
I'll, I'll tell them to interview you.
57:19
I'm like, I appreciate it. I I don't want to waste
57:21
anybody's time. And she because of her leaving
57:23
is it would open up the position and did she leave like in June
57:28
or like in meaning like how come they middle?
57:31
Filled it middle of summer so so it's.
57:34
Kind of odd they haven't, not when I say odd meaning like
57:36
typically you'd want it filled by now, but it's not outside the
57:39
realm of expectations. They hadn't had it, Yeah.
57:41
Yeah, so you know Mike Sturgeon and Mankato, right?
57:43
Of course. So he was finishing school at
57:47
lacrosse at the time, and he was, I think it was in grad
57:50
school. And so he Kim had just hired him
57:54
as the volunteer throws coach in June or July and then the next
57:58
day told him she's leaving and so.
58:01
OK, so Mike's been on the podcast, and I actually do
58:04
remember that, yes. Because he was like, yeah, I was
58:06
going to be this. And all of a sudden it's like,
58:07
Oh no, I'm this. Yeah, yeah.
58:10
Yeah, so he was volunteer throws coach, we had the distance coach
58:13
was a professor here, volunteer at the time.
58:16
And and so the, you know, so the end of August comes around and
58:21
that's all they had for a staff. So Mike and and Neil, the
58:24
distance coach had done the eligibility meeting with the
58:27
staff. So it was, you know, practice
58:28
was scheduled to start. If they didn't hire somebody,
58:31
the athletic director was going to have to be the the track and
58:33
field coach. So Kim says, yeah, you should
58:36
I'll call the ADI said, no, I appreciate it.
58:39
I don't want to waste anybody's time.
58:40
And so I go go back to work. Yeah, because T, this is crazy
58:44
talk, right? Like you're realistic on the,
58:46
you're like, what are you guys talking about?
58:48
Yeah, yeah. So this is what was it about a
58:52
week before week before Labor Day and and so practice, you
58:57
know, was scheduled to start, you know, after Labor Day and
59:00
and so whatever I whatever it was, tap on the shoulder and
59:05
like I said, just the hand to God, I just the Holy Spirit said
59:07
call, call Kim back. So I called Kim.
59:10
I said, sure, call the AD sure. So there wasn't really even an
59:15
application. It was just a matter of so is
59:20
somehow, I don't know, e-mail somehow we get in touch and he's
59:22
going to call me on my lunch break at my other job.
59:25
And so Larry Holstad, the athletic director at the time,
59:29
calls me up. We talk on my lunch break.
59:31
He says, hey, why don't you, Why don't you come out, come out
59:34
two. And oh, no, let's do a proper
59:35
interview. I said, I don't want to waste
59:37
your time. I appreciate it.
59:38
I'm just a finance guy. He just no, no, no, I like your
59:41
energy. I want you.
59:43
Why don't you come on up like, all right, I guess.
59:45
And so that was, I don't know, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday,
59:50
full week before Labor Day. So I come up and it's literally
59:53
the other side of the wall behind my camera is where his
59:56
office was at the time. And I come in and we sit and
59:59
talk in his office for an hour and, and just talking track
1:00:03
never felt like an interview. It wasn't until years later that
1:00:05
I realized that was the genius of Larry.
1:00:07
Was he just need to know if I knew track?
1:00:10
He had been a high school starter for a long time.
1:00:12
He was a high school administrator.
1:00:13
His kids did track you track. So we just talked track for an
1:00:16
hour. And then he's like, why don't I
1:00:18
show you around campus? So we walk around campus,
1:00:19
introduce me some coaches, whatever.
1:00:22
We get back to his office and sit down like, Larry, what?
1:00:25
What's going on here? Like what's?
1:00:27
Yeah, we can be done. That's not you're being nice.
1:00:30
Yeah, I'm like here for an hour and a half.
1:00:32
Like where? Where are we at?
1:00:34
He goes, you want the job, it's yours.
1:00:36
I'm like, I don't know, because it was an emergency hire.
1:00:42
So in the state of Minnesota, you can do an emergency hire and
1:00:45
it lasts for a year. And at that point you've got to,
1:00:48
you know, do a national search. And so I'm like, all right, I'm
1:00:51
26 years old. I have 0 experience.
1:00:54
If they hire me, I go, I leave my other job a year from now, I
1:00:59
have to apply for this job. If somebody more experienced
1:01:02
than me applies, they have to hire that person.
1:01:05
So I'm not sure I'm going to take the job.
1:01:08
It's a risk. And so I go back-to-back to work
1:01:11
and, and I walk in the door and my boss, it's like, well, what
1:01:17
happened? And he's like.
1:01:19
The boss knew. Yeah, of course.
1:01:21
Yeah. You told.
1:01:23
Yeah, yeah, you know, I've been. Friends for a long.
1:01:25
Time he was he was the worship pastor of my church.
1:01:27
I played the drunk. OK, OK, OK, OK.
1:01:29
Yeah, we'd known each other for a long it.
1:01:30
Was more than just the traditional boss employee.
1:01:34
And, and I'm like, well, they offered the job.
1:01:37
I'm like, I don't know. He's like, what do you mean you
1:01:38
got to take it? He's like, it's your dream job.
1:01:40
And so apparently at some point I had decided I wanted to coach.
1:01:43
I don't know. And he's like, you got to take
1:01:46
it. And I'm like, I don't know.
1:01:47
And so I thought about it for the weekend and Labor Day.
1:01:50
I remember it being Labor Day because I called the athletic
1:01:53
director. And then after I hung up, I'm
1:01:55
like, oh, I just totally called him on a vacation day.
1:01:58
And so I called him like, hey, yeah, take the job if it's still
1:02:02
there. And he goes, when can you start?
1:02:04
I said, well, give me a week to kind of tie up some loose ends
1:02:06
at the other job, and I'll be there next Monday.
1:02:09
And so I show up that next Monday, and I'm sitting in the
1:02:13
office out the other side of that wall.
1:02:16
And I walk in, there's nothing but a desk and a chair.
1:02:20
And early in the day, a girl comes in.
1:02:22
Jenny Fagan is her name. She and I happen to be neighbors
1:02:26
as children. Yeah.
1:02:29
I mean, she was. I was 26.
1:02:30
She was 22, I guess. So we're four years apart,
1:02:33
right? And so she comes in and says hi
1:02:37
and she's like, by the way, we have practice today.
1:02:40
I was like, oh, what, what time? Where do I meet you?
1:02:42
She's like 3:00 football field. Like, all right, cool.
1:02:45
So I go find a, a notepad and a pen and figure out what we're
1:02:49
doing for practice that day. And 20 years later, I'm on a
1:02:54
podcast talking to you. Amazing.
1:02:59
I remember first of all, I'm, I'm a little speechless.
1:03:04
You know, I've done this 350 times.
1:03:06
That's a little hard. And you know me well enough.
1:03:08
It's hard just in any time to get me to shut up.
1:03:11
I thought when we started this podcast back in 2020, I was
1:03:18
like, you know, I know there's a lot of different paths to
1:03:21
becoming a coach, high school, college, club professional.
1:03:26
There are many different paths. But, you know, I was like, that
1:03:30
number is finite though, like, you know, I couldn't put a
1:03:33
number to I couldn't say like, you know, there's generally 10
1:03:36
or even 50 paths. I have, you know, somewhere
1:03:41
around 100 and 5200. I learned, Oh no, it might be
1:03:44
infinite. I that is makes.
1:03:48
I don't know that you could have made, if I'd have said, hey,
1:03:49
make up a way to become a coach. I don't know that you could have
1:03:52
made that up. That is absolutely crazy, dude.
1:03:59
Here's what I mean when I invite people to the podcast and I tell
1:04:04
people your story matters. There are people who will hear
1:04:07
that story who've been like, you know, I never thought I could be
1:04:10
a coach. Certainly the majority of our
1:04:14
listeners, you guys and gals that are listening right now are
1:04:17
current coaches, whether the high school, club, college,
1:04:19
etcetera. But I know from social media
1:04:23
feedback and emails and stuff that there are a, a smaller
1:04:28
number of just the other track fans and maybe their daughter
1:04:32
goes to a Winona and that's why they're listening to this one or
1:04:35
whatever. But there are people that are
1:04:37
listening going I, I, I can't be a track coach.
1:04:41
I can't give up my my career, whether it's four years in or 20
1:04:44
years in, that just doesn't happen.
1:04:47
And you're showing the proof that it does happen.
1:04:49
There are people that go, I can't coach college.
1:04:52
I'm just, and that's one of my hated words.
1:04:54
I hate the word Justin. Only you, you, you, I don't know
1:04:57
if we've ever got into it. I, I at nationals when I, you
1:05:01
know, I'm always handing out the gifts, right?
1:05:02
And I'll say, oh, how many? Yeah, I know I saw, but I love
1:05:05
that actually. That's, that's really cool.
1:05:07
I'll say, you know, hey, you know, men or women.
1:05:09
And they'll say something like, oh, women, women only.
1:05:11
I'm like, well, unless it's like a Winona where it's like, oh,
1:05:14
you only have a women's program. But it's like, whoa, you know
1:05:16
how many people wish they had someone here and they're not.
1:05:18
It's not only, or they'll say, yeah, we only, we just got 1
1:05:21
athlete in bro. You know how many they have?
1:05:24
Zero. And they would kill for one.
1:05:26
It's not just an only you did it.
1:05:28
You have this one athlete or this one program, etcetera.
1:05:30
So, so to, to say it's for something like I was trying to
1:05:35
think where my train of thought was for someone that says I'm
1:05:37
only a high school coach. It's like, bro, you know, people
1:05:39
would love to be a high school coach.
1:05:40
Don't don't belittle yourself in the profession anyway, your pet
1:05:44
that is, I'm still like, I actually kind of don't know
1:05:46
where the next way to go with this because that's just crazy
1:05:49
because there's a little bit there's a little bit Mason,
1:05:51
you're you're analytical enough to and and I feel like there's a
1:05:54
lot of good enough of self-awareness here.
1:05:57
Like that is an audacious story. There's a lot of audacity there,
1:06:02
right? And, and typically audacity is
1:06:04
seen as like a negative. Like how, how dare you think you
1:06:07
could be a college coach? How dare you think you could go
1:06:08
to the trial, You know, those kind of things.
1:06:10
How dare you think you could run in college, by the way.
1:06:14
But being open to these things, these coincidences leads to what
1:06:20
you know what we're going to get into these 20 years of what
1:06:22
you've done at Winona and the positive impact you made on
1:06:25
young people. That's just amazing to me for
1:06:28
you to be open to it that people are in your lives.
1:06:31
Like, did you say Kim was her name?
1:06:33
The the yeah, and and and Healy to even mention those to you
1:06:39
because again, there's a little bit of audacity.
1:06:40
Like why would you mention that to him?
1:06:42
Like, what are you talking about?
1:06:43
You know this is amazing. So, so the one thing I'll say,
1:06:46
you know, I always say I was the the least qualified, you know,
1:06:49
coach in, in Division 2 when I started.
1:06:51
Most people say that and they're being fake humble.
1:06:53
You're being dead on, by the way.
1:06:55
Yeah. For sure, I mean, you know, a
1:06:57
lot of 26 year old head coaches and you know, with this little
1:07:01
experience as I had, but I will say that I have a PhD in track
1:07:04
and field because Mark Guthrie is one of the absolute greatest
1:07:08
of all time and how to, how to run a program, how to treat
1:07:11
people. I, I, I learned from the
1:07:15
absolute best. And I think if you go out and
1:07:17
you'll see there's a lot of other head coaches out there
1:07:20
that he, you know, Andy Bassler at Milwaukee and Andrew Rock up
1:07:22
at Bethel and Danny Tutsky at John Carroll and surgeon over
1:07:28
Mankato and Chip Schneider didn't run for Guthrie, but he
1:07:32
was Aga up at Eau Claire. He's an Eau Claire.
1:07:34
And I'm just letting and all kinds of assistant coaches that
1:07:38
are Guthrie guys, as I like to say.
1:07:39
And and then and then you try to count how many of Guthrie's guys
1:07:43
are high school coaches and and you're never going to be able to
1:07:46
find out. I mean, I go to the state meet
1:07:47
every year and it's like a reunion of of old teammates and
1:07:51
other lacrosse guys. And and so it's, it's just, you
1:07:56
know, I, I, I, I don't know that he understands the impact that
1:08:00
he's had, you know, not just on the guys he's coached, but then
1:08:02
everybody I've coached and now people I've coached are coaches.
1:08:05
That's right. And so, you know, anything they
1:08:08
learned from me, it's because I learned it from Guthrie.
1:08:10
And so, so while, while I do say in terms of experience, I had
1:08:15
very little, I truly will. I, I say this often that I have
1:08:19
a PhD in track and field from, you know, being an athlete with,
1:08:22
with Mark Guthrie. I, I, I'm with you 100%.
1:08:25
In fact, you, you, you, you stole a part of my brain there.
1:08:28
That's exactly what I think about.
1:08:30
And that's part of the, one of the reasons why we started this
1:08:33
podcast was the uplift and honor what you do Because first of
1:08:35
all, the positive impact that you make on young people is
1:08:37
immeasurable. 99% of the kids that you coach are not going to
1:08:40
go on to become pros, but 100% of them are going to go on to
1:08:43
become moms, dads, husbands, wives, business owners,
1:08:46
accountants, etcetera. And that's the real impact that
1:08:49
you make on the track and field side.
1:08:52
You're exactly right. First of all, you stand on the
1:08:54
shoulders of other giants, Guthrie specifically here in
1:08:57
this example, and you're building that same thing.
1:08:59
There are coaches that are on your shoulder now.
1:09:01
They go, yeah, you know what I learned from Mason?
1:09:03
Like I got to watch what he did or he encouraged me to become a
1:09:07
coach and a teacher. What it like that?
1:09:09
That's exactly right. The I love the trees and Guthrie
1:09:11
certainly has a big bigger tree than most out there.
1:09:16
And, and, and he gets credit for the impact that you make on your
1:09:20
young people. You know, it's just, it's a,
1:09:22
there's enough credit to share, and Guthrie certainly deserves
1:09:25
that. And then one thing I don't want
1:09:27
to skip before we move on anything else, one name I
1:09:30
haven't mentioned, Darren Shepherdson.
1:09:32
Shep was my high school coach my junior and senior year.
1:09:35
And that again, I talked about Sam Service, my middle school
1:09:38
coach, really setting the trajectory of my life.
1:09:40
Shep was another one coming in my junior year and you know,
1:09:45
again, just really made a massive impact on my life.
1:09:50
Did you call those guys when you're officially the head
1:09:53
coach? And certainly there seems like,
1:09:54
you know, first day you're like, oh, what time's practice?
1:09:56
What do we do? OK, I got to figure that out
1:09:57
too. So it's certainly there's a a
1:09:58
week or so of just you're just trying to manage the chaos
1:10:01
because you know, you're you're I'm say you're coming in
1:10:04
unprepared being you didn't even have a week to like prepare
1:10:06
what's first practice going to be like and things like that.
1:10:09
But did you call like Shepherd and, Oh my gosh, the middle
1:10:15
school coach? Yeah, Sam.
1:10:16
Sam service, did you call those guys within the first week or
1:10:19
month and be like, hey, you're never going to believe this?
1:10:23
I don't, I don't know if I if I did.
1:10:25
I mean, obviously at some point they found out.
1:10:27
I don't know that I called them. But no, I've certainly wrote a
1:10:32
letter to coach service a while back just so he understands the
1:10:35
impact that he had. Shep, I can't count the number
1:10:38
of times I've told him the impact that he's had.
1:10:41
And he's actually our our head cross country coach now as of a
1:10:45
couple months ago. I've been wanting for yeah, for
1:10:48
he's finally retiring from teaching.
1:10:50
And so he's anyway, so I've been wanting him to be our distance
1:10:53
coach for for 20 years and he he finally is.
1:10:55
So now I get to work with him on a daily basis and he's an all
1:10:58
time great too. And yeah, so and so I.
1:11:03
It's one thing to hire a former athlete, to hire a former coach
1:11:07
of yours. That's actually, that's pretty
1:11:08
rare. That's actually, it's kind of
1:11:10
special actually, you know, it's like, dude, this guy affected my
1:11:13
life. Now he's going to be on my
1:11:14
staff. We're going to do it together.
1:11:15
That's. Really neat.
1:11:16
Yeah, it's pretty awesome. So he just started in, in
1:11:19
January, so it's been a pretty awesome couple of months.
1:11:22
And yeah. And so I've, I've let him know
1:11:24
countless times and I think I've, I think I've let Guthrie
1:11:27
know too. I've I've got 1/2 drafted letter
1:11:30
to Guthrie that I need to finish one of these days.
1:11:32
Just kind of what we talked about now, just the impact that
1:11:35
he's had not just on me but on so many others.
1:11:37
I'm glad you said that because one of my challenges very common
1:11:40
in in our episodes is someone will talk about a a Shep and
1:11:44
like, oh, you know, impacted my life so much much.
1:11:46
And I'm like, hey, when's the last time, if ever, you've told
1:11:48
them that? And they're like, yeah, it's
1:11:50
been a while. Like, all right, that's my
1:11:51
challenge. Go whether it's write a letter,
1:11:54
write an e-mail, call in person, I don't care that does that.
1:11:56
The mode doesn't matter to me, the actions.
1:11:59
So I love that you do that because you were saying that and
1:12:01
I was like, oh crap, I can't challenge them to that.
1:12:03
You finish out the Guthrie letter, then that's that's
1:12:04
that's the challenge there. But.
1:12:06
I need to finish. OK.
1:12:09
You get this job that you are not qualified for, my friend,
1:12:13
and you know that and I appreciate yourself awareness
1:12:15
there. And you said that you have a PhD
1:12:18
in track and field. And I don't necessarily, I don't
1:12:20
have push back on that because of the very central part of your
1:12:24
life. That coach you had there, coach
1:12:26
Guthrie, that that makes a lot of sense because he is he's a
1:12:28
coach's coach. I know he's a track coach, but
1:12:29
he's a coach's coach. So that makes a lot of sense to
1:12:32
me. However, there is theoretical
1:12:35
and then there's application, right?
1:12:37
There's AI can be a genius on a certain topic, but if I haven't
1:12:40
applied that, that there's experience to be gained.
1:12:46
What looking back now, because now you have the 2020, you have
1:12:50
hindsight and you know, you're 20 years in the game, You've got
1:12:52
a routine. You're probably still
1:12:54
challenging yourself to get better, but you you know what
1:12:57
you're going to do on the first day of practice every day now,
1:13:00
right? You're not hours away going.
1:13:01
Oh, crap, all right, I guess we better do this.
1:13:03
Looking back, what were like, because someone right now is
1:13:09
either literally today or very, very soon going to get their
1:13:12
first head coaching job and they know nothing.
1:13:15
They know how to coach. Maybe they've been an assistant
1:13:17
coach for decades. I don't know.
1:13:18
But being a head coach is different.
1:13:20
There's so much more going on. I'm going to put you on the spot
1:13:24
here a little bit. What are looking back, what are
1:13:26
the top three things that you had to figure out learn really
1:13:31
quick. And that doesn't mean
1:13:32
necessarily like, oh, I had to figure out how to run practice.
1:13:35
Maybe that is one of them. I don't know.
1:13:36
Maybe it's, you know, I had to figure out how to report to my
1:13:39
AD, the person that was in front in charge of me.
1:13:41
I had to figure out how to tell them how the budget was working
1:13:44
or I had to learn how to do a budget.
1:13:46
I don't know. Scheduling again, there's a
1:13:48
billion things that you do that you have no clue how to do that
1:13:51
you'd never done. I should say, think about what
1:13:54
are the top three things someone wants to be a head coach or
1:13:57
tomorrow's their first day of head coaching.
1:13:59
Let's, let's leverage your experience here.
1:14:01
What are three things like, man, you know what I had to figure
1:14:04
out? Life got easier when I figured
1:14:05
out these three things. Man, first thing, first thing
1:14:12
you got to know about me is I'm a verbal processor.
1:14:15
And so I, I sort of figure things out as I talk.
1:14:18
You're saying that and examples you're giving and I'm not sure
1:14:23
you know I so. Let me ask, keep thinking I'm
1:14:30
asking a different way, but I'm, I'm kind of stalling for you a
1:14:32
little bit so you can think and then talk it out.
1:14:34
Maybe it's as you look back now, thank God, I learned these three
1:14:39
things. My life is easier today in 2026
1:14:41
because I'm good at XY and Z, which I was not very good at 21
1:14:45
years ago when I started. Maybe that's another way of of
1:14:48
asking that. So, yeah, so a couple of things
1:14:53
first, you know, they're, they say there's glass half full and
1:14:55
glass half empty people. I'm a, I'm a glass totally full
1:14:57
person. And I generally, you know, see
1:15:01
the best in people or, or think the best of situations.
1:15:05
And also the very first thing I said, or at least thought to
1:15:08
myself when I got the job, I probably told this to Larry, do
1:15:13
the best you can with what you got.
1:15:14
And whether that's facilities, whether that's money, whether
1:15:17
that's staff, whether that's in knowledge, whether that's
1:15:21
whatever, whatever you got, whatever you got, however little
1:15:24
or much it is, do the best you can with it.
1:15:27
And so I don't know if there's this learning moment, right?
1:15:30
You talk about scheduling, right?
1:15:31
Well, all you can do is what you know, that was, I was a
1:15:35
Wisconsin guy. I all the meats I went to in
1:15:38
college were at UW Point, Whitewater, Oshkosh, whatever,
1:15:42
Eau Claire. So when I get the job and it's
1:15:45
time to set a schedule. All right, well, where did they
1:15:47
go last year? All right, here's where they
1:15:49
went last year. All right, what other meats do I
1:15:51
know of? All right, let's make some calls
1:15:53
and send some emails. I don't, I don't know that you
1:15:56
learn how to schedule. You just figure it out, right?
1:16:00
You take what you know. OK, yes and no.
1:16:03
And what I mean by that is like I'd rather you the attitude be
1:16:06
like, all right, well, what did we do last year and I can
1:16:07
improve upon that versus what we're going to throw it out and
1:16:10
I'm going to put my fingerprint on that.
1:16:11
I think that could be a mistake, but I'm willing to bet you you
1:16:16
tell me that I'm wrong here. That's OK.
1:16:17
That what your schedule was 21 years ago is different today.
1:16:21
There's probably a lot of similarities.
1:16:22
Maybe, maybe as an alum, you always go to UW lacrosse, but
1:16:26
you you've evolved absolutely that schedule.
1:16:29
Absolutely. Yeah.
1:16:29
How, how did you tell us about that mindset then of how you
1:16:33
evolved your schedule? And it'll be very specific to
1:16:35
you, obviously someone who's in South Carolina, but but there's
1:16:38
themes that you've improved on it upon.
1:16:40
It no, I think there's two things.
1:16:41
I think there's the making sure you're getting your your team
1:16:44
into the right level of meat. You know what, whatever kind of
1:16:48
team you have, right? If you're the worst team in your
1:16:50
conference, you're not scoring any points.
1:16:52
You need to go to meats where those athletes can be
1:16:55
competitive. You don't want to go to meats
1:16:56
every week where you're last and everything, right.
1:16:59
And so as the team gets better, you know, whatever, whatever
1:17:03
level of meat you need to be in. And at the same time, I do want
1:17:07
to go to some meats where we'll be one of the better teams so we
1:17:09
can gain some confidence. But I also want to go to some
1:17:11
meats where we get our butts kicked so we can be challenged,
1:17:15
right? So finding the right kinds of
1:17:17
meats. And then the other thing is
1:17:18
networking. Who do you, who do you know?
1:17:21
And, and as you get to know more people, you know, you'll, you'll
1:17:27
adapt, right? And so I, I didn't know anyone
1:17:29
in Division 2 and now I know lots of people in Division 2.
1:17:33
And so you might be thinking, all right, well, hey, Northwest
1:17:36
Missouri has a meet this weekend.
1:17:37
I'll give them a call or, you know, whatever, you know, you
1:17:41
know people and so you call them.
1:17:42
So networking is one thing that I all my professors in college
1:17:46
that is important and I didn't believe them.
1:17:49
Really. Oh yeah.
1:17:50
I was like, no, the best person gets the job.
1:17:52
And I've I've learned that that's not true.
1:17:55
I tell my athletes, I said you can't be a turd.
1:17:58
First of all, you have to be good and you have to work hard.
1:18:00
But knowing somebody sure helps because if you if you're trying
1:18:04
to buy a product on Amazon and you're not sure which one to
1:18:07
buy, you'll read 1000 interview a thousand 1000 reviews and
1:18:11
still not be sure which one you want to buy.
1:18:13
But if if your neighbor or the guy in the next office says,
1:18:17
dude, I just bought this ABC product, it's awesome.
1:18:20
Well, that's the one I'm going to buy because someone I know
1:18:22
said. That even if the reviews are a
1:18:23
little bit lower, if it's a four point versus a 4.9, it's like,
1:18:26
yeah, but my neighbor bought it. That's my neighbor, yeah.
1:18:30
And so that's. A really good No one's ever used
1:18:32
that kind of analogy. That was a really good analogy
1:18:34
and. Employment is the same way.
1:18:35
You know, if there's 100 people that applied for a job and
1:18:38
you're just one of 100 resumes in that stack.
1:18:41
But the, the hiring authority, the athletic director, if, if I
1:18:45
know the athletic director and I call him and say, hey, this dude
1:18:49
you got, you got to hire this guy, he's going to go to the top
1:18:52
of the pile. He might not get hired.
1:18:53
That's right. He's going to go to the top of
1:18:55
the pile and he's going to get a serious look.
1:18:57
And so, so I've learned, you know, networking is important
1:19:01
and. Networking is a a topic of
1:19:05
interest to me because I think most people do it wrong.
1:19:08
What does that mean to you? What is?
1:19:10
Network, that's a good question. I don't know that I ever thought
1:19:13
about defining it. I think so it's, it's the
1:19:16
network of people that you know, but just knowing them isn't what
1:19:21
matters. It's what they think of you.
1:19:24
So I think there have been people in my life who maybe,
1:19:28
yeah, I can think of one person in particular.
1:19:30
And I'm not going to give details because it is a good
1:19:31
relationship. But somebody 20 years ago
1:19:35
professional that I met that I don't know that we had a good
1:19:38
relationship, but we respected each other and we work together.
1:19:43
And as time went on, he's become a very important person that
1:19:51
it's, it's important that he and I respect each other because
1:19:54
there are things I need from him that if he didn't like me, he
1:19:58
wouldn't have to give them to me.
1:20:00
And, and so, you know, whatever your reason for being nice to
1:20:04
somebody, it may be self-serving, but the, the
1:20:09
network of people, you know, isn't important that they don't
1:20:12
like you. So having a good rapport with
1:20:16
people. That matters.
1:20:18
And so again, whether it's self-serving or not, I mean, I,
1:20:21
I, I hope that I'm not being self-serving.
1:20:24
When I meet somebody, I genuinely think the best of
1:20:27
them. Like I said, I'm, I'm a glass
1:20:28
totally full person. I think the best of someone
1:20:31
until they give me a reason not to.
1:20:32
And even then, I think, well, they probably had a good reason
1:20:35
for not being very nice, right? And and that's just the attitude
1:20:40
I take. And so, you know, when I meet
1:20:42
people, I think the best of them and I want to have a good
1:20:45
rapport with them. And, and come on, all of us want
1:20:47
to be liked, right? Nobody wants to be disliked.
1:20:51
And so I think when I go into a relationship, I, I want to treat
1:20:54
people well and I, I want to be treated well by them too.
1:20:59
And so to me, it's, you know, the network of people, you know,
1:21:03
And again, it's whether it's helping someone else get a job
1:21:06
or whether it's, hey, I know the guy.
1:21:08
Like, if we've got an athlete who wants to be a grad
1:21:10
assistant, well, let me know. I know people everywhere.
1:21:14
If you want to be in this part of the country, I probably know
1:21:17
a coach there. And you know, let me give him a
1:21:20
call for you, those kind of things.
1:21:22
I think the, the self-serving part is one of the things that I
1:21:25
have a problem with most people networking, most people and I, I
1:21:28
always like to use the convention as my example.
1:21:30
You know, they want to go to convention because they want to
1:21:32
find mouse. A good friend of mine, Gill
1:21:34
podcast alum. So I was like using him as an
1:21:36
example. They want to find mouse because
1:21:38
they want to find some way to Curry favor with mouse.
1:21:41
So he'll be on on their resume. And it's like, well, that's not
1:21:44
networking. That's that's using someone that
1:21:47
you know, you're not giving any value to them at all.
1:21:51
And the other component that I think people forget about what
1:21:53
networking is the component of time that you'd said earlier.
1:21:57
I think, you know, it takes time for relationship because
1:22:00
networking you could just, you know, a math equation network
1:22:03
equals relationship. That takes time.
1:22:05
You don't meet someone for the very first time and
1:22:07
automatically it's like, oh man, I trust them with my kids.
1:22:09
Like no, no, that there takes experiences back and forth
1:22:13
etcetera. Yeah.
1:22:14
And, and the thing that I don't think I you talk about, what
1:22:16
have I learned along the way? I think the thing that I didn't
1:22:18
realize was so valuable before I did it was going to the coaches
1:22:22
convention and being involved in like committees.
1:22:24
So most of the coaches that I would say I'm friends with or
1:22:28
closest with are guys that I was on a committee with and we
1:22:32
worked on, Hey, we want to propose this.
1:22:34
How do we do that? And we worked on a proposal.
1:22:37
The other like Steve Blocker from Emporia, you know, I met on
1:22:39
a committee, you know, or, or Damon Martin, you know, at Adams
1:22:41
State. I I wouldn't know him except
1:22:43
from going to convention and and being on a committee together,
1:22:46
right? Or Jerry Baltus.
1:22:47
Why would I know Jerry Grand Valley except, you know, meeting
1:22:50
him at convention and having conversations and and so, you
1:22:54
know, I think, you know, I think camaraderie, often times people
1:22:57
say camaraderie is built shoulder to shoulder, right.
1:22:59
You worked on a project together.
1:23:02
Yeah, shared experiences. So I think a lot of coaches that
1:23:05
I do have good camaraderie with it's we we worked on a project
1:23:09
together at a convention or, or whatever, or we, we, we wanted
1:23:14
to, they wanted to put a meet on and I wanted to go to that meet.
1:23:17
So we worked on promoting that meet together or whatever it
1:23:21
might be. So and, and so you just kind of
1:23:24
get to know people that way. Or, or you competed, right?
1:23:26
You had a good 4x4 and this other coach, they had a good 4x4
1:23:30
and your athletes did battle and you sort of stood next to each
1:23:33
other taking splits, right? Or, or you're a jumps coach and
1:23:36
your kids battling their kid and you sit there and chat in
1:23:39
between jumps and you, you become friends because your
1:23:42
athletes competed against each other.
1:23:44
I think that's the case often too.
1:23:46
So I love the development of your scheduling of like, oh, the
1:23:49
right meets at the right time, not just I'm going to go full
1:23:52
bore and we're only going to be at meets where we're going to
1:23:54
win. And we are last in conference
1:23:57
because we're not getting stretched.
1:23:58
But also the other side of the extreme is we're going to only
1:24:01
go to the big meets. I don't care if we if we're dead
1:24:03
last, that's going to make us tougher.
1:24:05
You're you're, you're, you're almost a tweener.
1:24:07
They're like, hey, there's times where we need to be confidence
1:24:10
builder, so we need to be maybe a better team at that meet.
1:24:12
And there's other times where it's like, yeah, we got to put
1:24:14
you in the meat grinder here a little bit.
1:24:15
You got to realize you're not as good as maybe you think.
1:24:17
You sometimes it's mentality. It's like, oh, you are ninth,
1:24:19
you're not second. So So what do we do to become
1:24:22
second then? I I love that development of
1:24:24
scheduling. I love that discussion about
1:24:26
networking and what that means to you and what it's done to
1:24:29
your career. Is there a third thing you can
1:24:30
think of? Again, think about when you
1:24:32
first started and you're like, Oh my God, I had no idea about
1:24:35
X. And now, thank God I do, because
1:24:37
that has made coaching life a lot easier.
1:24:40
You know, I, I, I don't know how to express this.
1:24:43
You talked about how being a head coach is different than
1:24:45
being an assistant coach. And I think it's just a matter
1:24:49
of there's a lot of balls in the air that you have to manage,
1:24:54
whether it's budget, scheduling, staffing, recruiting, and then
1:24:59
just all the emotions that go along with having a team full
1:25:01
of, you know, 18 to 22 year olds, all of the things that
1:25:04
they're going on in their lives. And and so I don't like to use
1:25:11
the word culture because it's So what does it mean to different
1:25:15
people? It's so cliche, right?
1:25:17
Like I don't like cliches. I like things that are staying
1:25:19
the touch. It's hard to.
1:25:20
Hold on to culture. It's like this big glob of glue.
1:25:23
It's like, how am I real? So.
1:25:25
I try not to use that word, but I have to bring it up so you
1:25:27
know what I'm talking about. But it's it's just a matter of I
1:25:30
people. I think the reason I bring it up
1:25:31
is people ask, you know, what, what do you do to create
1:25:34
culture? And I think and, and I, I, I
1:25:37
have this written down somewhere, so I'm not going to
1:25:39
say it as well as I, I wrote it down once, but just the idea
1:25:42
that it's just what you do on a daily basis, you know, and, and
1:25:47
so I guess I'm not sure what I'm getting at with this, but just
1:25:51
the idea of I don't, I don't know what I'm trying to say.
1:26:00
I guess I shouldn't have gone down that road.
1:26:02
I'm not sure what I'm. Saying I, you know, actually, I
1:26:04
appreciate you having a little bit of pause and stammer there,
1:26:09
if you will, because I think you're right.
1:26:10
I think it's a lot of times we say culture as if we know
1:26:12
exactly what that means, how it's built, how it's destroyed,
1:26:16
by the way, how we change it. You know, it's very, you know, I
1:26:20
don't like to use the word cliche, but it is very cliche to
1:26:23
say, oh, when I took over the program, I wanted to install
1:26:26
instill my culture. It's like, well, what does that
1:26:28
mean? And by the way, what is, you
1:26:30
know, we're all I think to something you said earlier about
1:26:33
like we all want to be liked. And I do think some people like
1:26:35
to be the the bad guy, though. I think that some people have
1:26:38
that kind of, it's rare, though. It's rare.
1:26:40
I think most of us would prefer to be liked versus hated on.
1:26:45
But you saying general you, not you, Mason, I wanted to instill
1:26:50
my culture versus the the last guy or gal.
1:26:53
It's like, well, what do you think the last guy or gal
1:26:55
culture was? You think they were like, Oh,
1:26:57
you know what my culture is going to be?
1:26:58
We piss on everybody. We we don't like our team.
1:27:00
No, they're they probably had a a positive culture that they
1:27:05
were trying to instill install as well.
1:27:08
Yeah. So let me jump in.
1:27:09
I guess it's just you. You are who you are, whether you
1:27:13
try to be or not, you are that person.
1:27:15
And I guess I want to make sure that I'm treating people well,
1:27:19
that I'm respecting people and being the best coach I can be
1:27:24
for them. And then the culture is just the
1:27:27
people on your team, whoever they are, and however they act
1:27:30
as your culture. And you can have things on the
1:27:32
wall and that you're trying to grind into your team and these
1:27:35
these slogans and whatever. And that's fine.
1:27:38
Most of the time people don't remember them or they don't
1:27:40
really grab on to what they are. But I think just as a coach,
1:27:43
just recognizing how much your athletes reflect, you know, and
1:27:50
I'll give you 2 examples. I don't swear, I just don't.
1:27:54
And I don't tell people that I don't swear that they just never
1:27:57
hear me swear. And so my athletes generally
1:27:59
don't swear around me, but every once in a while I'll hear them
1:28:02
off somewhere else talking to each other and it's they're
1:28:05
cussing whatever to each other. I'm like, oh, I never hear them.
1:28:10
And so again, they're sort of adapting to who you are as a
1:28:13
coach. And I think the earliest example
1:28:15
I have of that is maybe my first year, but one of my first years
1:28:19
coaching. We're at this meet and which one
1:28:23
happened first? The athlete is pole vaulter.
1:28:27
She just absolutely just a, just a baby just screaming and crying
1:28:33
and shouting and yelling and swearing and anything, anything
1:28:36
goes wrong. She she misses a bar, She
1:28:38
doesn't plant. What just I'm like, whoa, what
1:28:41
is going on here? A few minutes later, I see her
1:28:43
coach acting the same way. I'm like, oh, well, that makes a
1:28:46
ton of sense. And, and so, or another example,
1:28:50
you know, when, when a coach is freaking out about, well, why
1:28:53
are we throwing the javelin this way?
1:28:54
We should be throwing it. There's two runways.
1:28:56
We should be throwing it that way.
1:28:57
And their athletes hear him say that.
1:29:00
Well, it was decided that we're throwing the javelin the
1:29:02
opposite way the coach wants to. But all of his athletes heard
1:29:05
him, heard them heard the coach say, why you can't throw it that
1:29:08
far into the wind or with the wind or whatever.
1:29:10
The discussion was. All of those athletes, they were
1:29:12
supposed to be like 1-2, three in the conference.
1:29:14
They all, they were like 8910. The athletes immediately were
1:29:19
like, oh, well, coach says we can't throw far this way.
1:29:22
Everybody else, they're just fine that way.
1:29:24
But they latched on to what the coach said and did in his
1:29:28
attitude. And, and so, so I think they,
1:29:31
they, they feed off of that, whether they know it or not and
1:29:34
whether they'll admit it or not, they're going to feed off of the
1:29:37
coach's attitudes. What do you do with your non
1:29:41
cursing? If if an athlete curses at your
1:29:44
practice, one of your athletes practices at the curse right?
1:29:47
Do you correct them or you just need an example?
1:29:50
They can be who they want to be. I'm not going to tell them they
1:29:53
can't be a certain kind of person.
1:29:55
I think maybe another way of defining there's a billion ways
1:29:58
to define culture, but one of those is what do you portray?
1:30:01
How do you, what do you so leadership?
1:30:02
What do you so you don't cuss? So people would never be able to
1:30:04
say, Oh yeah, you know why we cuss at practice?
1:30:06
Because coach does, right? No, coach does not.
1:30:08
So probably most of them don't because they do consciously or
1:30:12
subconsciously recognize, you know, I've actually never heard
1:30:15
coach cuss or anything, right. So what do you portray?
1:30:17
What is your leadership? And then also, what do you
1:30:19
accept out there as well? You know, if it's like, you
1:30:23
know, my kids curse all the time and like, well.
1:30:26
I won't accept that. Yeah, I won't accept disrespect.
1:30:29
Right, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:30:31
Yeah, you know that, that sort of thing.
1:30:32
And then I'm reminded of that example you gave about the
1:30:34
javelins so just recently at the Wisconsin Track Coaches Clinic.
1:30:39
Lance Brahman, coach of Noah Lyles, recent world indoor 60
1:30:44
meter champ. Oh God, what's that kid's name?
1:30:46
Richardson. Oh my gosh.
1:30:49
So is Anthony Richardson. He went to Arkansas.
1:30:51
He just won the indoor 60. He's a Lance kid.
1:30:53
And I've known, I've coached against Lance.
1:30:55
I've known Lance for a long time.
1:30:56
His dad has been on the podcast. I've made fun of Lance a little
1:30:59
bit. Like, you know, your dad has
1:31:00
been on the podcast, but not you, Lance.
1:31:02
Anyway, you know, Lance Brahman big time.
1:31:03
You know, he's coaching Noah and all these guys, right?
1:31:06
And so he was doing some talks at Wisconsin and he made a big
1:31:10
point about whatever I'm thinking or feeling that's
1:31:15
negative, I have to stay inside. My athlete cannot see me.
1:31:20
He gave an example. I think of a maybe a false start
1:31:22
that happened in one of Noah's races.
1:31:24
I could be getting the example wrong, but it's like a false
1:31:27
start or something happened. He was like, oh crap.
1:31:29
You know, it's not good because whatever other reasons he goes.
1:31:32
But I stood in that stand confidence like I get back in
1:31:35
the blocks and he goes, I couldn't let my athletes see
1:31:38
that I was like, crap, that's not good because of whatever
1:31:40
reason, blah, blah. He goes because then the
1:31:42
athletes start taking, oh, crap, that's not very good.
1:31:44
That sucks. It's a false start.
1:31:45
And I mean, and like he repeated that kind of that similar story.
1:31:49
He did three talks and almost every one of his talks and it
1:31:51
really stuck out to me. Like that's right.
1:31:55
I think every coach would say or admit our athletes feet off of
1:31:58
us, but then we forget that and then don't act that way.
1:32:02
And so we complain about oh, the wind is in our face.
1:32:06
I'm thinking you pole vaulter and coaches, Oh, we didn't turn
1:32:09
the 100 meters around or oh, we don't have the right pacer for
1:32:12
the 10 Ki, don't know, I don't like.
1:32:14
Talking about, talk about all that, you know, just go.
1:32:17
Say that in front of our kids. What do you think they're
1:32:19
thinking? Then you're the leader.
1:32:20
Of course they're looking at you.
1:32:22
No, there's, I remember very vividly, there was an indoor
1:32:25
conference meet and you know, as an athlete, you know, you, you,
1:32:29
you warm up, you get amped up, you do your event and then
1:32:32
you're done. And then sure, you're cheering
1:32:33
for your team, whatever, but you're not on all day, right?
1:32:37
You can turn off for a lot of the day, but when you're the
1:32:40
head coach. Not the coach.
1:32:42
Not only when my events are competing, but I'm involved in
1:32:45
watching the, the jumpers and everything else that's going on
1:32:48
and, and worrying about is there enough food and where are we
1:32:50
going to eat later? And, and just, you're never off,
1:32:53
right? So you get through a 2 day
1:32:54
conference meeting, man, I don't realize until the four by 4 is
1:32:57
done, but then all of a sudden you're just wiped out, right.
1:33:00
So we get down to the meet. I don't, doesn't matter what we
1:33:02
placed for second, third, whatever.
1:33:04
If we didn't win and I found there's just a somewhere out of
1:33:07
a Plio box. I don't know, something I sat on
1:33:09
one of my athletes and I was just like, boy, just tired When
1:33:12
I have to say, coach, are you upset?
1:33:14
Are you disappointed in US? I'm like, and, and all she saw
1:33:17
was just my facial expression. I was like, no, I'm so proud of
1:33:21
you guys. This weekend was amazing.
1:33:23
You guys did great. Whatever, all the stuff she's
1:33:25
like, oh, you just look mad. And that was a real like, OK, no
1:33:29
matter. I mean, I was, I was tired and
1:33:32
whatever, but I was still proud of them and excited and
1:33:35
everything, but my face didn't show it right.
1:33:38
And so I'm I'm aware of that and and I don't I'm I'm sure I don't
1:33:42
always do that perfectly. I'm sure when the meets done and
1:33:44
I'm tired, I I look tired, but it was just more evidence of
1:33:48
that. They see you and then they they
1:33:50
feed off with you. I'm with you.
1:33:52
They are always watching and everybody is always watching
1:33:56
whether whether you're the head coach doesn't coach athlete,
1:33:57
they're always watching my, you know, where I sit in my seat.
1:34:02
You know, my, my, my role is to uplift an honor track and field
1:34:05
coaches, to be your cheerleader, be your advocate.
1:34:08
You know, Mason, I think what you're describing there, I'm
1:34:10
with you 100%. But you do need that outlet,
1:34:14
that emotional like where no one is watching me.
1:34:16
So, you know, just think about mental health and I know you,
1:34:18
you probably have worked on these things.
1:34:21
We can always get better, you know, whether it's back at the
1:34:23
house or the car ride home. Be tired.
1:34:27
It's okay to be tired. It's impossible to be the stand
1:34:31
up. I'm always on 24/7.
1:34:35
There are certain times you've got to be on, but there's times
1:34:37
where you've got to regenerate, you've got to be off as well.
1:34:40
So, so just kind of my, my, that counsel to you, but my advice to
1:34:45
you, where, where does, where does the role of coaching
1:34:49
education fall for you? Typically I talk about coaching
1:34:53
education in a formal and informal setting.
1:34:55
Formal being the things of like USATF level 1's level twos,
1:34:58
UFTFCA, Altis, etcetera. Informal being more like, Oh
1:35:02
yeah, I was on the phone with Coach Guthrie for hours talking
1:35:05
about 400 meter training or whatever.
1:35:07
Where, Where? What's the role of coaching
1:35:08
education been for your career? Yeah, everything you just said.
1:35:14
Yeah, I did the, the USTFCCCA, the the Sprint deep dive one
1:35:19
that they did that was, I don't know, 12-13 years ago and
1:35:24
learned a ton. Boushek Snyder was there.
1:35:26
Vince Anderson, I say all the time, you know, it's stuff that
1:35:29
I learned from Vince. I mean, I use that daily and I
1:35:32
still try to catch when he has stuff on, you know, Twitter or
1:35:35
wherever he has got stuff posted.
1:35:37
Learned a ton from him. A lot of, you know, just a lot
1:35:40
of stuff that maybe coaching philosophy wise that maybe I
1:35:44
didn't realize was so important or what were you whatever, just
1:35:48
so many things learn from them. So so the STFCCCA that All
1:35:52
inclusive 1 was hugely impactful for me in a lot of ways and I
1:35:58
did the Altus. What do they call it?
1:36:04
Mentorship. They do it different now than
1:36:06
they did five years ago. Yeah.
1:36:07
The the old ACP, the Prentice coach.
1:36:10
Yeah, no, it was just that it was all via Zoom and there's
1:36:13
about a dozen or 20 people that you got to do like a
1:36:18
apprenticeship sort of program anyway with with coach Path.
1:36:22
And so just learned absolute ton from from from Dan Path
1:36:27
throughout that and the others on the call.
1:36:29
There's a phrase that a British guy used, I think it's Tom
1:36:32
Tomlinson, his name. He's a rugby strength and
1:36:36
condition guy in England. Anyways, he used the phrase fit
1:36:38
for purpose. And because we talked about, you
1:36:41
know, Dan talks about, you know, building a base, a base of what
1:36:43
you'll hear Dan Path talking about that.
1:36:45
And so Tom would say fit for purpose.
1:36:48
And so we talked a lot about that on that call that day.
1:36:50
And so that that comes to mind a lot when I'm writing workouts.
1:36:54
It's like, what's this workout for?
1:36:55
What's the, are we fit for purpose or we just fit right?
1:36:59
And like, what, what kind of fit does a high jumper need to be?
1:37:02
And I know you didn't want to talk XS and OS, but just from,
1:37:05
just from that. That's philosophy.
1:37:06
Yeah, I'm. With you, yeah, with, with Coach
1:37:08
Path learning a ton, ton, ton ton from him.
1:37:11
And then just the conversations we had.
1:37:13
So Vince Anderson and Dan Path would be two huge ones.
1:37:17
And then Vern Gameta, just everything's from him over the
1:37:20
years. And then, you know, Lauren
1:37:22
Seagrave just from when I was in college, coach got through,
1:37:25
brought him in. So just some of the big names
1:37:27
that that I don't know that they even know who I am, but have
1:37:31
learned a ton from them. Oh, Vince knows me.
1:37:32
He said hi to me when I've seen him And, and I think coach path
1:37:35
would would know me if if I saw him.
1:37:37
But but anyway, just a ton from those guys.
1:37:40
But then, like you said, the other ones just you're out of
1:37:42
meet and you're just chatting with other coaches and, and
1:37:46
just, or just seeing how other coaches coach and asking him why
1:37:49
did you do it that way, you know, or just just those
1:37:52
conversations. And so so all of that is, is
1:37:56
hugely important. I love that.
1:37:57
If you're listening, he mentioned Booshknater, Dan Path.
1:38:00
I thought you mentioned another person.
1:38:02
Those two have been on the podcast and then Vince Anderson
1:38:04
has been on the podcast through his topics at some clinics, I've
1:38:07
been able to record and have them on the show.
1:38:10
So if you're interested in those, go check those out.
1:38:13
I love that, you know, coaching education changed my life.
1:38:15
Bouche X Leader changed my life. So I respect that a lot.
1:38:19
I always get word. And so far it's actually been 0
1:38:22
out of 100, zero percent. If someone were to say, Oh yeah,
1:38:25
coaching education. No, I just do what what I did
1:38:27
when I was an athlete, It's like, oh, brother, things have
1:38:29
changed. Like, yeah.
1:38:29
Dude, you need. To catch up with it here a
1:38:31
little bit. Yeah, what what I learned from
1:38:33
Guthrie for sure is the base. But I've learned so much, you
1:38:38
know, through all the coaches Association sessions, some of
1:38:42
it's XS and OS and some of it's philosophical, you know, both
1:38:46
from Vince and Dan, I've learned some XS and OS stuff, but
1:38:49
definitely some overarching principles from both of them too
1:38:53
that that are absolutely foundational to what I do daily.
1:38:58
One of the things that I'd like to start doing here in the
1:38:59
podcast. So I'm going to I'm going to
1:39:02
Guinea pig you, Mason. All right, I'll be.
1:39:04
I'll be your pilot. Yeah.
1:39:05
And maybe I should mention this before we hit record.
1:39:07
It's not in controversial, but what I'd like to do is pick your
1:39:11
brain a little bit on the state of track and field and really
1:39:14
like, what are you thinking? And what I mean by that is, you
1:39:18
know, maybe D2 is thinking about going to regionals.
1:39:20
And so I'd like to have a conversation.
1:39:22
I don't know if that's true or not.
1:39:23
I'm just making up examples here.
1:39:25
But what's going on in track and field that you're curious or
1:39:28
interested in or fighting for? Fighting against what's What's
1:39:32
going on in in track and field in your sphere?
1:39:35
And that's a whole other two hour conversation.
1:39:38
Yeah, I need to start shortening.
1:39:41
I really am fascinated by our guest is high school experience
1:39:45
because I think that that they're talking about base
1:39:47
that's the base of where we get to in today's world.
1:39:50
But I do I want to start turning a little bit more to like
1:39:53
current events type stuff while also doing the the bio so.
1:39:56
Yeah, you brought up maybe 4 different paths I could go down
1:39:59
there and maybe I'll stick with the one you started with the
1:40:01
state of track and field, you know, there's I think a lot.
1:40:05
Being said of that from coaches at various levels, if, you know,
1:40:09
Sam seems at the coaches association, I think that's
1:40:12
maybe his prime directive is is being a steward of the state of
1:40:16
track and field. And so maybe a lot of the things
1:40:19
I say are from just different conversations at the coaches
1:40:22
association. But Sam said, you know, a lot of
1:40:24
years ago, just the idea of, you know, making our sport fan
1:40:29
friendly. And so I, I think maybe that
1:40:32
would be the, the focus of anything I say about the state
1:40:35
of our sport and just looking at what do we do?
1:40:38
So, for instance, I don't know, 10-15 years ago now, I was on
1:40:42
the road at a meet and the Tyson meet was on it at Arkansas.
1:40:45
It's going to be on ESPN. And so my dad is, was never a
1:40:49
track guy, but became a, you know, track fan through watching
1:40:52
me over the years. And, and so I, I think I, I
1:40:55
don't remember what, what started the conversation if I
1:40:58
called him specifically about it or he called me, but I think I
1:41:04
said, hey, dad, you got to catch the Tyson meet.
1:41:06
It's going to be, and all these big names are going to be there,
1:41:08
whatever. And, and maybe it was a separate
1:41:10
conversation with him about, about, well, who, who I think he
1:41:16
watched it and he's like, they never talked about who's winning
1:41:19
the meet. And I was like, yeah, they don't
1:41:22
keep score. He's like, what do you mean they
1:41:24
don't keep score? That's the dumbest thing I ever
1:41:26
heard of. How do you have an athletic
1:41:27
contest and they don't keep score?
1:41:29
And I was like, you know what, Dad, that's a really good point.
1:41:31
So just from our sport perspective, right, people that
1:41:34
coach the sport, people that were in the sport, you're the
1:41:38
kind of fan that you're going to be for the rest of your life no
1:41:40
matter what. But if we if we want to be
1:41:43
marketable to the general population, right, That the
1:41:47
general 5060 year old guy who's just sitting there with the
1:41:51
remote control watching ESPN, you know, I would argue that
1:41:55
watching the D1 championships is probably the best thing that we
1:42:00
put on TV for the average person who's just channel surfing,
1:42:05
because you know, they're talking about the teams that are
1:42:08
scoring points and and all of that.
1:42:10
And then the average again, 4050 sixty year old person watching
1:42:13
TV is going who who won? Right when you watch college
1:42:17
football, right when you watch the NFL, you know the names of
1:42:20
the guys. When you watch college football,
1:42:22
how often do you watch a game and you don't know a single
1:42:24
player on the team? You're just a Badger fan.
1:42:26
You're just AUSC fan and college track and field is that way.
1:42:31
You're a Badger fan. You don't know the name of a
1:42:33
single guy on the Badgers track and field team, but you're a
1:42:36
badger fan. And so you you watch the NCAA
1:42:40
championship, you're cheering for the Badgers.
1:42:42
You don't know that 21 year old kids name, but you're cheering
1:42:45
for him. And so when when we can score a
1:42:48
meet or we can, we can show that it's more than you know.
1:42:52
Are you tuning in to watch the 100 meters?
1:42:55
OK, at last 10 seconds. You're not going to keep
1:42:58
somebody there for an hour to watch your show when they're
1:43:01
just tuning in to watch Noah. Like, no, no offense to Noah
1:43:04
Lyles, like they're tuning in to see Noah, but in terms of the
1:43:08
state of our sport and, and, and getting people interested, you
1:43:13
know, that that was the one thing my dad said once was
1:43:15
that's the coolest thing I ever heard.
1:43:17
Well, I don't know one. Yeah, hard to hard to disagree.
1:43:20
You know, it's interesting to me on both high school and college
1:43:23
level when you add men and women and high school boys and girls
1:43:26
together, we're the most participated sport in in the in
1:43:30
all the sports, right. So you're you're more likely.
1:43:32
I like to think about this way. When you walk into the grocery
1:43:35
store, you're more likely to bump into someone who did some
1:43:37
form of track and field than someone who played football or
1:43:39
basketball, baseball, etcetera, right?
1:43:42
And yet we cannot get those people to attract me.
1:43:46
I'm 100% with you. So what are are you do anything
1:43:49
like for meats that you host or meats that you go to, meats that
1:43:54
you choose? You get to choose what meats you
1:43:56
go to? Are you picking team scored only
1:43:58
meats? Are you encouraging?
1:44:00
Maybe there's a meet you go to that they don't do it, but
1:44:01
you're like, hey coach, you know we'd love it even more if he
1:44:04
scored. It so so the problem with that
1:44:06
is so after COVID that started happening more the Tyson meet,
1:44:10
they started inviting teams instead of individuals.
1:44:12
They started scoring the meet meets that we go to, we started
1:44:15
scoring everything. And then the 2526 rule book,
1:44:21
there's something in there that says in a scored meet.
1:44:26
So you know about the championships, right?
1:44:28
If you're at the national meet and you scratch an event, you're
1:44:30
out the rest of the meet. Yeah, honest effort.
1:44:32
Yeah. And no, no, not honest effort.
1:44:34
That's a different thing. So, so and most conference
1:44:37
championships will have it that way, right?
1:44:39
You can't enter 5 events and only run one of them.
1:44:42
You got to enter, you got to run all the events you're entered
1:44:44
in. That's not in the book anymore.
1:44:48
Whatever. Anyways, yeah, it's, it's, it's
1:44:51
called something different because honest effort, like,
1:44:53
what do you mean honest effort? I got out of the blocks, I
1:44:56
walked around the track, I, I finished the race.
1:44:58
So we, we've changed that and it's, it's fine.
1:45:01
But, but my point is the new rule says any scored meet, if
1:45:06
you scratch an event, you're out of the meet.
1:45:08
So lots of coaches like to run a kid in the 60 prelim, but they
1:45:12
don't want to run in the final because they got to run the two
1:45:15
in the 4 by 4 later or whatever. So once they scratch their kid
1:45:18
from the 60 final, they're out of the meet.
1:45:20
Well, that's the host school. And I'm not going to score this
1:45:24
meet so that my sprinter doesn't have to run the 60 final because
1:45:28
I want him running the 200 and the whatever later.
1:45:31
And so people are scoring meets less now because they want the
1:45:34
flexibility to pull their kid out of a race or hey, we're
1:45:38
going to enter these two, we're going to enter the 8 and the
1:45:40
mile. We're going to see which one's
1:45:42
more competitive and the heat sheets, and that's the one we'll
1:45:44
race. This may be and.
1:45:46
Then we'll scratch the other one.
1:45:47
This may be a bad example, but you know, the football, the
1:45:52
football coach may want his quarterback to only run 7 versus
1:45:57
7, but in the game it's 11 versus 11.
1:45:59
Tough nookie, you got to run 11 versus 11 or not play.
1:46:04
I get what you're saying. And so maybe that is it.
1:46:07
Could it, could I ask then, does there need to be a coaching
1:46:12
philosophy mentality that, hey, if you're going to run the 60
1:46:16
and they have finals, then they need to run the 60, don't put
1:46:18
them. In a number to.
1:46:19
The four and the four by four if you're not really doing that.
1:46:22
Yeah, you're not going to convince every coach in the
1:46:24
country to do that so. True, and I'm sure there's
1:46:27
plenty of, well, I know this for a fact, There's plenty of NFL
1:46:30
coaches who don't like the rules.
1:46:31
Like this kickoff rule. There's a lot that hate that.
1:46:33
Guess what? It's still the rule, guys.
1:46:34
Yeah, so that's that's where this this new rule came in as
1:46:37
more coaches starting scoring meets a few years ago, which was
1:46:40
cool. But now this rule is there and
1:46:43
nobody has said this to me. But the meets we go to that used
1:46:45
to be scored, they're not scoring anymore.
1:46:47
And I know that those, you know, those places have athletes that
1:46:51
that they want to make sure, hey, we don't want to run the
1:46:53
hurdle final because he's got the 200 coming up.
1:46:55
We're trying to qualify for nationals.
1:46:56
So again, I'm not saying either of them is is good or bad, but I
1:46:59
just know that, you know, scoring meets is more exciting
1:47:02
when you're when you're, you walk into the office on Monday
1:47:04
and the athletic director says, hey, how'd the meet go?
1:47:08
You you give them examples of things.
1:47:09
Well, we had two qualifiers. We set a school.
1:47:12
Record. So I'll get you started on the
1:47:13
qualifiers thing. You're right, we could have done
1:47:17
two more hours just on this. Yeah, yeah.
1:47:19
So, but but when the athletic director sees that you won the
1:47:22
meet, right? That's that's that's promotable,
1:47:25
right? Or hey, there's 32 teams there,
1:47:27
we got second. Cool, but if you can't say that,
1:47:31
right, So it's just again, going back to Sam seems what are the
1:47:34
things that we can promote? What are the things that we can
1:47:36
do to to, you know, but at the end of the day, you know, the
1:47:40
the the basketball coaches are saying this in their March
1:47:42
Madness post game stuff. It's all about the student
1:47:46
athlete. We want them to have a great
1:47:48
experience. So we can say we want to promote
1:47:51
the sport, but more importantly, we want the student athletes to
1:47:54
have a great experience. So which one is it?
1:47:57
So we. We can make, not.
1:47:59
Copacetic, not not incongruent. Right so so for instance, we
1:48:04
want it we want to fit a track and field meet into two hour
1:48:07
window for TV. Well, is that what's best for
1:48:11
the student athlete? I don't know.
1:48:15
So I'm not saying either 1 is good or bad.
1:48:17
I'm. Just saying I'm there that
1:48:18
might. Yeah.
1:48:20
So like Division One, they wanted to make sure that they
1:48:22
can get their meat on ESPN. So we have Wednesday, Friday is
1:48:26
the men's events there, Thursday, Saturday is the
1:48:29
women's, except the multi, right?
1:48:30
We can't call it men's day and Women's Day because the multi
1:48:32
messes that up. But they were able to find a way
1:48:35
to fit the women's meet into a 2 hour window by not having men's.
1:48:39
So now you've all of a sudden shortened the amount of time
1:48:42
between the 204 by 4 because there's no men's events.
1:48:46
That's good for TV. Is it good for the student
1:48:48
athlete? Well then you got to say, well,
1:48:50
it's a coaching decision. You don't put them in both the
1:48:52
two and the four by four. OK, so again, I'm not saying
1:48:56
either these. This is super interesting
1:48:58
because. That's where we're trying to
1:49:00
say, are we making rules that are best for the student athlete
1:49:03
or are we making rules that are best to promote the sport?
1:49:06
Which ones more important? Right.
1:49:08
Whose responsibility is that right?
1:49:10
Is it the NCAA and institutions responsibility to make our sport
1:49:13
better or is it yeah, because it didn't strike me when we when we
1:49:17
first started talking with incident Blay for the
1:49:19
sponsorship of that they kept you know, my thing is coaches,
1:49:23
right? I'm always like what we doing
1:49:24
for coaches and they always like the student athlete experience.
1:49:27
I'm like, yeah, I love the student athletes, but I love
1:49:29
Mason. Mason's, you know, my guy, you
1:49:31
know, I can affect those student athletes by making Mason's life
1:49:34
better, but they are very big on the student athlete experience.
1:49:37
That's a great point. And I did not think about those
1:49:40
two things. Not necessarily being in line.
1:49:42
Maybe some things are, but not necessarily in line.
1:49:45
And I remember this argument about the Wednesday, Friday,
1:49:47
Thursday, Saturday and people saying, oh, you know, spring
1:49:50
coaches were up in arms. You gave a great example, you
1:49:52
know, the doublers, 104 by ones and things like that.
1:49:55
And yet, you know, young people are resilient.
1:49:58
They've adapted to go look at the meets, the we're running
1:50:01
faster than ever. We're setting college records
1:50:03
left and right. So they're adaptable.
1:50:04
But the main thing I took away from that was what's best for
1:50:07
the sport, what's best for the student athlete.
1:50:09
Aren't I always thought of like, I would have told you like, Oh
1:50:11
yeah, they're aligned if we do better for the sport.
1:50:12
And it's like, Oh no, no, there are components where it's maybe
1:50:15
not and. And the other question I, the
1:50:17
other question I ask, and not to give you the answer to it, but
1:50:20
the question I'll ask is, does it really matter if we're
1:50:24
promoting? Like does it matter if our sport
1:50:26
has more fans? Does it really matter?
1:50:29
I mean, it may what? Question you asked there, Mason.
1:50:32
Is any athletic director going to cut track and field If if, if
1:50:35
there aren't fans in the stands? Well, yeah, we've seen that.
1:50:40
Oh, who's going to cut? Who's going to cut?
1:50:42
Would that be whatever? Track and field you're never
1:50:44
cut. They're not.
1:50:45
That's not the reason why they cut it is because.
1:50:46
Yeah, yeah. It's not.
1:50:47
It's not because there's no fans in the stands.
1:50:49
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, track and field, like you
1:50:51
said, it's the most participated sport in the country.
1:50:54
Who's who's cutting the sport, right?
1:50:56
Are are we? Are there less opportunities
1:50:58
because we're not on ESPN? There's less marketing
1:51:02
opportunities. There's your there's less
1:51:04
opportunities for the pros. Maybe.
1:51:07
But is, is, is division two track and field worse off if
1:51:12
there are less fans? No, I'll go back to coach
1:51:17
Guthrie maybe on the conversation with this.
1:51:18
The year I was coaching there in 2004, he coached the men about
1:51:23
the women. He's he's he's a very magnetic
1:51:25
guy. You like him.
1:51:26
So the women come up to him before the 4x4 at nationals.
1:51:29
Really nervous. Coach Guthrie, we're nervous.
1:51:31
We're nervous. 4 by 4 is coming up.
1:51:33
Tell us something. And I don't say this to be
1:51:36
little sport. I don't.
1:51:38
But his comment was, ladies, outside of this building, there
1:51:43
is probably no one else on earth that knows or cares that this
1:51:47
event is going on right now. Just go run for each other, have
1:51:50
fun. Again, not to belittle our
1:51:52
sports. Sport is so important.
1:51:53
We learn so much from it. There's so much value in sport.
1:51:56
But at the end of the day, unless you're the NFL, like I
1:51:58
couldn't tell you what's going on in the NBA right now, I don't
1:52:01
know and I don't care. So, and that's a major sport
1:52:05
with a lot of money. I don't know and I don't care.
1:52:08
So at the end of the day, does it really matter whether track
1:52:11
and field has more fans or not? This is an opportunity for
1:52:14
college students to do something to better their their lives, to
1:52:18
give them something to do there. There's so many great things
1:52:21
about track and field. And again, I'm not saying yes or
1:52:24
no. You can see obviously which side
1:52:25
of the fence I lean on. But but at the end of the day,
1:52:28
doesn't really matter if there's a lot of track and field fans.
1:52:31
I mean, curling still exists and nobody really cares about
1:52:34
curling except two weeks every every four years, right?
1:52:36
They're. The ultimate every four years,
1:52:38
right? Yeah.
1:52:39
Yeah, yeah, you know, and so so. That's I love being challenged
1:52:43
and and making me think that that's really interesting to me
1:52:46
because then I start thinking about like, OK, why do for I'll
1:52:49
ask myself this question. Why do I want fans in the stands
1:52:52
like, Oh my God, is it actually ego?
1:52:54
Do I want to just be involved in a sport that like in NFL is
1:52:56
like, oh, they sell out 6080. I don't know what it is.
1:52:59
Is that why is it ego or is it what's best for the sport?
1:53:03
Man, that's nice and you brought up a really good point.
1:53:07
See, This is why I gotta start doing.
1:53:08
I appreciate you letting me be the Guinea pig cuz I need to
1:53:10
start that earlier so we can flush it out just a little bit
1:53:12
more. Although I love this little
1:53:13
chunk right here. This was very, there is some,
1:53:20
what's the word selfish reasons. I host this podcast and this is
1:53:24
one of them right here. Like, oh, I, I, I learned I did
1:53:26
not think of the student athlete in the best for the sport.
1:53:29
I, I, like I said, I'd have told you like, Oh yeah, they're
1:53:31
probably In Sync. And it's like, Oh, no, no,
1:53:32
that's, that's, that's really good.
1:53:34
And I think often they are, but not always.
1:53:36
Yeah, I think that's that's the lesson is like they can be, but
1:53:39
they're not locking Steph. They're not 100% what the what's
1:53:43
bad for the sport may be good for student athlete and vice
1:53:45
versa. And and again that question of
1:53:47
like, well, whose responsibility is it for the sport?
1:53:49
I I don't know that it is NCAA responsibility to help track or
1:53:55
any other sport be better for the fan or, you know, more
1:53:58
enticing for fans. Mason Brother, one last question
1:54:04
and we'll wrap up here as you are this, are you going, is
1:54:08
this, it's spring of 2026? Is this the 22nd season or 21st
1:54:12
season? I don't know.
1:54:13
I started fall before. However many years, that is.
1:54:15
As you, well, I went to the school in Alabama, so that's not
1:54:17
my strong suit. So I'm going to ask it this way,
1:54:19
Mason, as you look towards the future, whether it's the season,
1:54:22
next season, 510 years from now, what's got you excited about
1:54:26
Winona State track and field? Everything, yeah, we've got a
1:54:30
really big group of freshmen and and anytime you bring in big
1:54:35
group of freshmen, there's just so much energy.
1:54:36
That's just different with 18 year olds that are starting
1:54:39
something new. So we got a lot of talent, we
1:54:41
got a large group of freshmen, sophomores, just a lot of
1:54:44
energy, a lot of excitement. We've got an outstanding
1:54:46
coaching staff. We've got a great university,
1:54:51
you know, and, and, and everything in life, you know, I,
1:54:53
I read once that most people that quit their jobs do so
1:54:56
because of interpersonal relationships, not because they
1:54:59
dislike their job. And I will say that the people
1:55:02
we have here are amazing. And so I, you know, there may be
1:55:04
places that have more resources or better this or better that,
1:55:08
whatever, but we've got great people.
1:55:09
And at the end of the day, that's it makes it fun to be at
1:55:12
work. Whether it's our athletes or my
1:55:14
fellow coaches or administrators, we just have
1:55:17
great people and it makes a really great place to be a part
1:55:20
of. I love that man.
1:55:22
The job is the job. And I know we like to put
1:55:24
coaches sometimes our number one identity, but you know, there's
1:55:28
a lot of other types. Son is more important than being
1:55:31
coach. Well, the son I meant you being
1:55:34
your son, it's way more important to being a coach.
1:55:36
And so, you know, I know we have so much passion being coaches,
1:55:39
but it is a job at the end of the day, it's a it's a calling.
1:55:42
I get that. But you know what, I'm sure
1:55:43
accountants think that's a calling too.
1:55:45
But there's other things in life.
1:55:46
And so I'm happy that to hear about the people you surround
1:55:50
yourself with as well, not just the 100 meter dash and the mile
1:55:53
and all that kind of stuff. Mason, the most valuable thing,
1:55:56
the most expensive thing you can ever give me is your time, my
1:55:59
brother. And I'm just so grateful for
1:56:01
this time today. It was fascinating to learn your
1:56:04
journey. I would have pegged you as a
1:56:07
coach. You know, I've known you for
1:56:09
long enough now. I would have said, oh, yeah,
1:56:11
this is the kind of guy that knew he was going to be a coach
1:56:12
in high school. I'm completely shocked.
1:56:15
It was completely the other way. It was years, almost a decade
1:56:18
later before you're like, yeah, I like this coaching thing.
1:56:20
Let's figure it out. Your first coaching gig is.
1:56:23
I mean, it's still ludicrous that that's how it happened.
1:56:25
I love it. And I love that discussion that
1:56:28
we had there at the end, too, just about the topic of track
1:56:31
and field in general. I appreciate you, your openness
1:56:33
and authenticity, my friend. Thank you so much for being.
1:56:35
With us. Yeah, Fun talking with Mike.
1:56:37
Good guys and guys, thank you for being here.
1:56:38
I'm going to keep this outro real short because I've gone
1:56:40
over his time and I still got to do my little outro with him.
1:56:42
So thank you so much for being here again.
1:56:44
So blessed that you press play today.
1:56:46
Make sure you check out the library.
1:56:47
A former guest. We've mentioned a lot of Gill
1:56:48
Podcasts alum Sam Seems he's an alum of the Gill Podcast, Dan
1:56:52
Path, Boostex, Nader, many, many others.
1:56:55
Then maybe some future ones that you mentioned as well.
1:56:57
Intent. So appreciate you guys checking
1:56:59
out the library. Check us out next week.
1:57:01
We'll do it all over again. Have some fun.
1:57:02
Thanks guys. If it goes to appreciate the
1:57:08
coach, the ones that point people most every season needs a
1:57:12
voice of reason speaking the growth you got to prep before
1:57:14
you carry the load ice coffee to the soul.
1:57:17
For those of us who stay on the go proper handoff to stay in the
1:57:20
zone which you packing for the road.
1:57:22
There's more than one way to go. Take notes that's paying you're
1:57:25
told it ain't practice. If your purpose ain't clear, it
1:57:27
can't happen until you listen With both is you can't mentor
1:57:31
without a mentor of years of experience.
1:57:33
You can reinvent those years every plan fans got to stand to
1:57:36
deliver to in the price sacrifice Can you give up you
1:57:39
It's a choice and to fight not a win or lose.
1:57:42
It's not a ploy boy device. Y'all can make more moves.
1:57:44
It's not about how to it's all about why you don't know till
1:57:47
you know who you are inside 6,000,000 waste of time, she's
1:57:51
none. So y'all cross finish line, the
1:57:53
work ain't done. So we learn from the experts,
1:57:55
but y'all got to put in the network.
1:57:57
Guild Athletics is a network. It's all about connections put
1:58:01
together for the profession to where every track coach could be
1:58:03
blessing.