Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 053: Seattle, WA. Steven Rinella talks with political communications PhD candidate Greg Blascovich and Janis Putelis from the MeatEater crew

Transcript

Ep. 053: Seattle, WA. Steven Rinella talks with political communications PhD candidate Greg Blascovich and Janis Putelis from the MeatEater crew · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is a me eater podcast coming at you shirtless,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: severely bote bitten in my case underwear. Listen, don't e podcast.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: You can't predict anything. So Greg Blaskovich just told a story,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: but he won't tell he wanted to tell a story
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: for we turned the machine on. He might be abdible
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: pulled out of me. It's like it was a family story. Yeah,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: I don't want to tell any more than that. I
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: can crack right into it. Actually, I feel like I
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: can share. You don't need to, Okay, I don't want
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: you talking about you know, I don't everybody know what
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: you tell about your your beautiful wife's family. And then
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: we're commenting on how you're honest, um, how gray on
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: he's getting. He was saying, it looks like if you
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: took a picture of him, it'd be like it'd be
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: like looking at pictures of Obama uh on the inauguration
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: day and now, and that you guys have around parallel
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: parallel hair pads, a lot of hair though. Yeah, I
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: got more than hetty, but it makes you look like
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: you look distinguished. Though, Man, you got like that George
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Clooney kind of thing I'm going for. Yeah, if I
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: get when I started getting all gray, I just hope
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I got like a big old thick head of hair.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: But I already got my hairstyle playing out man when
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: I go bald and everything on him? Dude? You know
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: how dudes that are going bald, they just slicking back.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: That's not I have might be like like no, not
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: like that, like long long, Yeah, I don't know anyways, Greg,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: I haven't thought this through all the way. Brought about
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: a little prematurely, Greg Blast, Which is that Polish? What
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: is that Croatian? Is that right? You're a croat I'm
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: an American? But yeah, yeah, is it? Um? Do you
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: feel it as bad? Are you still? You know, in
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: in our changing um? You know, we're always changing the rules.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Can you still ask people like if they're Polish? Or well?
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: I'm certainly not the person. You didn't take about that?
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: You know? I mean, would you did you? Were you
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: just surprised that I would have asked you that? No?
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Not at all. People ask about my last name all
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: the time. When I grew up. It was like what's
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: that Russian? Yeah? Blast, And they're like, oh, you got Slavin.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: I was like, no, it's great. So the Croatians. How
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: long has your family been in the US forever? Like,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: are you like an American mutt? Oh, My mom's side,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: half of her side has been here and since like
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: I think before the Revolution. The other early from England.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: My dad's side was late mid to late eighteen nineties
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: from Croatian Italy. Yeah, that's the thing is like you know,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: I'm Italian by name only now. My old man when
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: he was born, he was raised up by his grandparents
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: and they spoke Italian in the home. Did he's making
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: he by the time he but no, I mean by
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: the time he died, I mean he was it meant
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: it was nothing. Yeah, I mean he he would like
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: get like if you know, if he was eating some
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: spaghetti or something, that might have like some nostalgic feeling
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: or something. But but no, he it was like no,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: well used for it. But he carried with him, um
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of strange stereotypes about other ethnicities that you
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: would have that that he brought over, the biases that
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: it felt like, yeah, like that felt quaint, Like he
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: would have these ideas that um that the Hollanders who
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: would call Hollanders like you would never go to a
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: yard sale that the Hollander was throwing because Hollanders that
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: tended to overvalue the shrewd Dutch. They tended to overvalue
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: the things that they owned. So he had a lot
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: of things that are like part like yeah, but biases
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: against again people who had been in the who had
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: been in the country for so long. But he was
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: raising little Italy in Chicago, so he cared like he
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: would talk about going and getting beat up by the
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Irish kids, you know what I mean. So he had
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: like he had like a um he viewed American culture
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: still like last name meant a lot to the guy. Yeah,
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: that's what I'm getting at. Well, you know, I I
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: spent a lot of time over in Croatia. I'm the
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: first one of my family to have like gone back.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: You know. It wasn't really like a going back trip,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: but I always wanted to check it out because of
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: my last name, and so I did in college and
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: then I just kept go unpacked. Got a good base
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: of friends over there, did a little bit of work
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: for political party, that sort of thing. But like I
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: can't speak it at one time, I could like get
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: around it, get in and out of taxis in like
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: order couldn't have conversations. It's an extremely odd language. But yeah,
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: the Lavian lover here has never been to Laba. I
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: would have thought you've been. There's more. There are more Latvians.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: There are more Labvians here in America then there are
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: in Latvia. There are more Croats abroad than in Croatia.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: There's four point five million in Croatia and seven someone.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: It wouldn't surprise me maybe worldwide. That's how there's tons
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: in Australia. All right, now, Greg said, scene for me
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: to tell tell what you do? Now? Um, A PhD
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: candidate studies political communication at Stanford. At Stanford, Yeah, now
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: what labut you're in? What's the lab in the political
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: communication lab? Yeah? That's why you want me to give
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: a background on it. Yeah, but I want to ask
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: this first. I think we might talk about this at
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: some point in time. We're gonna talk about what we're
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: gonna eventually get around and talk about. Here is is
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: some of Greg's interesting work. And um, as far as
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: public perception, public opinion, a hunting. But did you and
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: I talked about years ago and there was a news
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: story that came out. I feel like it came out
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: of Stanford where they were pulling ahead of a gay
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: rights initiative. It doesn't ring a bell, and they would
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: have they would like pull neighborhoods to see how they
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: felt about an initiative, and then they would have gay
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: couples go and canvas the neighborhood. I know what you're
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: talking about, but we didn't. We didn't talk. That was
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: I thought. I asked about that. You know about that, yeah,
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: just vaguely, but yeah, but that that wasn't United't that
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: wasn't a Stanford thing. But we had we know, we
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: haven't discussed that. Do you know that study? Well not well,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: I know of it, right, and it was people respond
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: differently obviously when the when the canvassers are okay, yeah,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: so you'd like you'd call up a dude's house and
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: be like, hey man, how do you feel about this? Uh,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: you know, the gay marriage bill coming up, and they'd
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: be like hell with that? Yeah, And then you know,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: a gay couple go to the house and be like,
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: hey man, just so happens this kind of thing affects
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: us directly where your neighbors keep us in mind? Yeah,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: then you call that due to while back, you know,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: calling a while later and be like, hey, man, how
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: are you feeling about this gay rights initiative? Oh? You know,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I could see both sides of it, you know, what
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: would change their like just like the smallest amount of exposure. Yeah,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: people get really excited about that. For some reason. I
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: feel like I feel like it was discredited. Yeah, yeah,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: that's what That's what I want to ask what I'm
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: I feel like I I heard the same thing because
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: part of me is thinking, man, I feel like there's
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: another side of this coin like I heard it. It
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: didn't work out kind of yeah, it was build, it
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: made it made the news. It was billed as this
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: sort of breakthrough, and then some more details emerged and
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: it wasn't his revolution. It was kind of too good
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: to be true to begin with. I mean, if it
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: retains some credibility. I don't want to like slander, but
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: it would be amazing if you could change people's uh
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: entrenched views simply by having them meet, you know, member
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: of a certain community your door step for a couple
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: of minutes. I mean, that would to have that effect
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: linger for however long they had after the after the exposure,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: would be incredible. If it was like the two weeks
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: you were talking about. Yeah, all right, so now breakdown
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: what you're all about there, what's going on? So originally
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: I was in a PhD program in political science down
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: at UC Santa Barbara. And uh so, how traditional political
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: science studies polarization, you know, like political polarization. How they've
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: done that. They've never really been able to generate consensus
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: on whether American society has polarized. To a lot of
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: people who don't study politics, that elicits kind of raised eyebrows,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: right because it's like, what are you talking about, Like
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: it's so divisive out there. But what they've done, um
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: is or how they've defined polarization is whether or not
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: people's ideological viewpoints are moving to the left and the right.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: Devoid of partisan labels, right, it's like, how do you
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: feel about issue A, how do you feel about immigration?
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Here's seven possible responses, you know, pick your favorite. And
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: when you don't have party labels, you know, everyone just
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: answer is what they what they feel. Uh And it's
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: not a bipolar distribution. It's a totally normal distribution where
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: a center right country kind of always happened. We're all capitalists,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: um and ah. Essentially it was. You know, it's kind
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: of grappling with this idea of like, well, it feels
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: like it's certainly really heated out there, and it feels
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: like it's polarized, but this isn't really capturing it. And
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: so but back up, I don't understand how what do
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: you mean by not capturing it? So, if you had
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: polarization defined by people's ideological viewpoints going farther left and
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: farther right, you would see a bipolar distribution of responses, right,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: you would have like those must be the Democrats. But
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: we have a normal where intersted country in terms of
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: just our policy positions. Like if you were to ask people,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: you give them, like, uh, one to ten, pick your
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: favorite number. If half the country picked one and half
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: the country picks ten, you'd be like, man, that's a
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: bipolar distribution. But basically we still have a lot of fours, five, sixes. Yeah,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: that's where it centers around. Sure, Yeah, there's it's only
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: the tales where it gets really like ideological fringe, you know,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: because I feel like that's the only story you've been
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: hearing is about how polarized we are. Now, well, so
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: this is so I think we are polarized, but we've
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: been Um. I mean, I don't think that's a bad metric,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: but it certainly doesn't capture what a lot of us
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: are feeling. So I got interested in the concept of
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: what we now call affective polarization. I started studying this
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: at UCSB, and it's basically taking a social psychological approach
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: and saying, you know, I think what we're seeing out
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: here in terms of kind of the heated politics is
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: more how democrats and Republicans feel toward one another. How
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: do I regard Republicans or how do I regard Democrats
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: rather than like, well, what's my ideological aggregate score on
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: all the issues? Um And at my now advisor at
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: Stanford chantau Erongar has done a lot of good work
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: on this and basically demonstrated that over the past fifty years,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: you know, this affective bias against our party opponents has skyrocketed. Yeah,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: and it it's now just you know, you can basically
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: study it. Like social psychologists have studied race and ethnicity
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: and religion, all these kind of in group outgroup differences
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: that we we kind of think about classically. You can
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: do the same with politics. UM. And, so I'm in
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: the political communication lab and we're really focused around kind
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: of this concept of affective polarization or it's called part
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: as an affect, but it's basically, you know, the biases
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: between in groups and outgroups. And I just happen to
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: study folks who label themselves either Democrats or Republicans. You're
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: only interested in people who labeled themselves that way. Well,
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: the vast majority of the country does, right, and how
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: we can oh yeah, in what's critical though, is you
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: have to include the independent leaners. Right, So if I'm like,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: how do you identify Democrat, Republican? Independent? Won't say? You know,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: most people answer. A ton of people say independent. You know,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: like a lot of people who call themselves independent tend
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: to lean towards one party or the other. Like if
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: you had to choose, you know, which way do you lean?
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: And we offer them leaning Republican, leaning Democrat, we offer
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: we still offer like strict independent if they if they
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: really don't want to say, but that question gets most
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: people um to admit that they actually lean towards one another,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: because I mean, like, you know, we're all rational people.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: I think we look at the facts in front of
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: us and just make like a. We have issues, specific positions, right,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: and then at the end of the day we make
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: a judgment about like, Okay, well I tend to lean
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: towards this party because I've added up all my positions
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: or something like that. That's where I have a really
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: hard time. It is hard. I've never made the jump.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: I've never made the lean like if you get if
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: you if you threw things at me, right, yeah, I
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: feel like i'd be split. But are you so? If
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: I put the I said, Steve, you're deciding who's gonna
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: win this next election. I don't know random election and
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: uh in Washington state, right, I don't say you're just
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: gonna pick the party, right, And I said pick up party.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: If I did that ten times, you're telling me five
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: and five equal split something. I depend on the people.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: And but you don't understand how in depth I get
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: about this stuff. I actually play because I like as
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: a I want to get to the hunt part of
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: this pretty quick here. But I want to say that
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: I'm so averse to radical change. I am too. Then
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I actually will look at like the Tug of War.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: I'm like a guy that walks out to people playing
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Tech of War and they'd be like, oh man, those
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: guys to get their ass kick. I want to jump
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: and help them not get their ass kick because I'm
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: always playing Like um, I'd like like, I know people
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: would like to complain about gridlock, but I like I
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: like pretty slow measured movement. I don't like radical herky
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: jerky movement because like, if you're any kind of a
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: student of history, you realize that radical um, when you
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: take radical departure from courses, it tends to veer wildly
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: and have a destructive period and then get corrected slowly
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: back to the other direction. So to save all that,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: I kind of like things to move pretty and easy,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: and I have, but I always have my eye on
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: on some issues that I'm inflexible about. Yeah, I think
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: you're preaching to the choir there. I mean, I don't
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: like you five governments, like a like a split legislator legislature.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I like change too, uh, come slowly. I
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: think it's important, but I think I've changed gonna happen
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: too quickly. That's where you get into you get into trouble.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: So I guess I'm establishment and that and that's sort
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: of being an anti establishments cool as right, But I'm yeah,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: it's not fun to be it's not fun to describe
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: yourself as established. It's certainly not at the moment. Yeah yeah,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: but I look at of out in the bay right now,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: the late establishment folks exactly. So now, okay, get us
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: around of the park. To get us you can step
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: a wavement, but approach the part, approach the hunt and stuff,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: and then pull back away if you want. Okay, just
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: give a little teaser, the teaser of the hunting stuff,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: all right. So you know, as an academic researcher, I
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: have a series of methodological skills, right. I tend to
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: prefer the experimental method. And so I was like, well,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: let's run an experiment on uh pe Pull's perceptions of hunting. Specifically,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: I wanted to look at non hunters. And then this
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: question that kept coming up in my mind was generated
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: by things like, you know, hunters make up a tiny
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: minority of the American public, but the vast majority of
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: American public has generally positive feelings towards hunting in the
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: United States. Lay some numbers of that five percent of
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: five or six percent of Americans by a hunt license. Yes, Now,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: people always like to them point out like, oh yeah,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: but there's all this hunting like you could you know,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: you can go to never admit around me. I'm saying,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: I like hunt Man and if people are like funny
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: because you never about a hunting license. And then someone
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: point up that you can hunt varmints in Utah without
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: she was like, yeah, yeah, but I hunt vironmout. That's
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: wondering about. You could be a rabbit squirrel hunter in Montana.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Never vi license, Brandon Williams, can you I feel like
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: in Montana, I don't think you can hunt small game
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: about a license, but it's not. It's a non it's
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: non game. I think you had to be a license holder,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: but you had to have a conservation license. I argue
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: about something easy, like there's like a right wrong be
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: very easy to check out. Anyhow, he had found his
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: people had found a way for him to sort of
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: maintain despite his lack of hunting licenses. He did walk
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: back the vironment thing, you know, because first he went
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: like environment hunting people like really like a passionate environment hunter,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: strictly enviromint's uh, And then he was like, yeah, I
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: only really went hunting twice once was on the campaign
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: trail and once was when I was I was with
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: my cousins. You know, it's fine, it's just you know,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: people are really desperate to show there. But that is
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: a guy. Yeah, that plays into what you're saying. So
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: five or six percent right of the American population buys
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: a hunt license twice as many twice you know, about
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: thirteen million or no, not about thirteen percent by efficient license.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: I think there's Yeah, there's certainly a larger population of
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: anglers than hunters, and hunting. Hunting still enjoys such a
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: big approval rating that it's a thing politicians do is
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: trying to like establish some hunting credential. Which is weird
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: is you're trying to like establish you're trying to forge
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: a link between you and five or six percent of
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: the American population. But it's a potent symbolism that goes
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: beyond it. Becamember like John Kerry even did that hunt.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he did a goose hunt where he's trying
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: to act like he's like Joe hunting, he's a goose hunt.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: But then they didn't want him to be filmed holding
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: the gun too much, so he had a guy next
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: to him carrying his gun, which then he already had
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: a problem with Eladi is m. Yeah, then here he
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: was He's already got like a big elitism problem, like
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: being to pertreation, but then here he was some dude
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: tote in his gun for him on a goose hunt.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's like ubiquitous, Like every candidate tries to
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: demonstrate themselves as a as a hunter. I mean, Paul
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Ryan's secret Service code names bow Hunter. But he is
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: a hunter. He is, He's and I'm not saying that
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Paul Ryan isn't. He has a passionate hunter, but I
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: just mean, uh yeah, lots of lots of candidates try
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: really hard to establish themselves. It's kind of the rule. Yeah,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: Paul Ryan's big hunter. There's the there's the right side
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: of the aisle, Martin Heinrich's big hunter on the D
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: side of the D side of It's good to see,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: but it is funny when there's the totally urban establishment
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: candidates trying to pretend that so yeah, I like to
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: shoot critters. Um all right, So there we are. Yeah,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: and I'm thinking about this divide and it's like, well,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: it's an interesting question, like why is this happening? So
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: there was that there was that kind of aspect that
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: made me start to wonder maybe I should when you
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: were curious, why is it happening that so few people
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: do it, but it has resonating with so many people
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: who don't hunt. And then on the side of that,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: I think, you know, I've I've only been hunting for
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: a few years. I mean, I guess you could say
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: I started in college, although I kind of wandered around
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: the Elk Woods a few times, not knowing anything about
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: what I was doing. I don't even think I played
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: the wind. It was just kind of like trampling truly
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: with the rifle. Sometimes it sometimes works. It didn't for
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: me unfortunately. Um. And then you know, when I would
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: I got interested in hunting because well, I think it's
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: always occupied kind of this nostalgic uh imagery in my head.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: You When I was young, I read books and like
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: The Hatchet and you know, stories of survival, Western stuff,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: trapping stuff. I loved. It's funny. I was just trying
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: to read The Hatchet to my kid, but he's not
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: quite there yet, not there. I just gave a Hatchet
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: plus the book The Hatchet to my nephew for Chris.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: He's yeah, I'd read it. I read my six year
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: old right away. It's like talking about divorce and it's
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: just like shoot too high with eleven or you think
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: that's no, it's good, okay, but you know what the
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: hills divorce. I like, well, we're trying to read about
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: a kid getting lost and was not gonna explain like no, no, no, mom,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: daddy's wild tangents. Um. But yeah, So when I when
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: I talk about, you know, as a new hunter, I
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: kind of feel like there's or maybe it's just simply
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: living near almost nobody hunts, you know, like an urban
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Bay area, but people are genuinely interested in it. Whenever
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: I bring up the fact that I am a hunter, um.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: And I found that listening to other people talk about
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: why they hunt with whatever audience they're speaking to versus um.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: You know, some arguments I may use. There tends to
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: be different receptions sometimes, right. And so there is five
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: that I tested the study that I've always been interested
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: in or that I've kind of logged, and like, man,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I wonder if that actually does anything right? And one
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: is hunting is tradition. Okay, that was the teaser. All right,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: is this the main thing you work? On my dissertation.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: But the hunting thing is a side project. It's a
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: passion project. Yes, okay, it's a passion project too. What
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: I don't even know the answer to this. I just
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: know you for the hunting thing. So you want so
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: just like what I do in my day to day life,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: as I study this affect of bias between partisans and specifically,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: so my lab has shown that, Okay, there is this
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: affective bias that exists between Democrats and Republicans. And how
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of advancing the ball down the field, um
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: is I'm wondering what happens to this level of bias
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: when people are under various cognitive states. No not, I'm
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: talking about like psychological max get a lot more confident
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: about it. Uh yeah. I study a concept called group
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: threat as well as self threat and self affirmation. I
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: mean I don't want to get to like all right, So, um,
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: I'll just lay on an experiment for you. Right, so
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: let me stop you real quick the stuff you do
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: with hunting, because that was the teaser I wanted to give,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: just make sure people didn't think they tuned into the
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: wrong program. I can see that, so you dick and
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: rail hunt but that's not the main thing you do. Know,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: it's a side it's a passion project project. Yea, So
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: what a time consuming side project? Man? You know I
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: love spending my time on it. Okay, So now in
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: a nutshell, explain what you do do? So I study
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: they So my dissertation is on the influence of various
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: forms of cognitive threat on affective polarization. What's it? Hoggingtive threat?
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Like you think it's something's gonna happen to you. Yeah.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: So the two that I study are self threat and
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: group threat. Self threat and a nutshell, uh cases you
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: know you're feeling bad about yourself in some particular domain.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: And group threat is how you feel when when your
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: group is being negatively evaluated. So if I was like,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: hunters are a bunch of that's group. That's if you
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: say to me you're a red n know, if I'm like,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: you know, you lack integrity in some way, you know,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: like you're just you're a disloyal friend, Deanni, you know
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: that's self threat? Really yeah, self threat? You know it's it's, uh,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: you're internalizing some judgment on yourself with you um, and
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: I can run you through the dissertation, but it can
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: get a bit walk and dance or just laying at
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: me a little bit. I'd love to you're all about it,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: but it's in the interest of time. Okay. So when
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: a nutshell, when people experience self threat, they lash out
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: against political opponents in a totally unrelated domain. So so
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: I think it'd be interesting to talk about the dependent
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: measure that I'm using to measure affective bias is known.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: It's an economic game known as the trust game. Have
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: you heard of it? All? Right, So there's a player
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: one and a player to right. Like, let's say you
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: and you are all right, your player one, your player too.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I say, I'm gonna give you ten dollars, right, you
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: can give some none or all. After you do that,
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna take the amount you gave and I'm gonna
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: triple it. Now he will have the opportunity to give some,
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: none or all of that amount back to you. How
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: much you're gonna give ni for real? Sure? Yeah, I
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: have to like sit and think about five bucks five
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: right now, you gave me ten and we're together, I'd
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: be like, I'll give him five, yeah, but just guess
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: no reason whatsoever. Well, the interesting thing about the trust
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: game is so you have the opportunity to both make
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: more than ten dollars, right, Like, if you're really generous,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: it's like, let's say you give ten, you know, and
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: you triple he has thirty. You can each make fifteen.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: But you could just give this guy thirty bucks and
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: you could come away with zero, right, you know, Yanni,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: he's a nice guy and you so you probably feel
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: comfortable laying yourself out there with the ten dollars. But
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: if you see some person who's like, okay, this player too.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: You've never met him, but you're getting into like that.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Me and Yanni both know the rule, like you you
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: you present this to us, well, I feel like I would.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: We would exchange a quick glance, realize we were onto something,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: and I would give him all the money. Yes, and
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: this in the way that I'm doing it out and
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: not bringing two buddies together and having him play it. Right,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: So you're taught me to do just coming down the road. Yes,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: I never see him again. And this one's over the computer, right,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: And there actually is no player too. We're only measuring
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: the participants as player win, but they have to make
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: judgments on how much money they're going to lay out,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: and they only have a little bit of information about
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: player too to craft their judgments with. Right. And of
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: course we put in a party queue. Um, so it's
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: like age, race, annually, yearly income party and these are
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: questions that the participants themselves have, uh have filled out.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: So it's not like inconceivable that we created a profile
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: for a player too. Yeah. So it's like it's a
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: gender studies professor on their way to yoga, right yeah. Yeah,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: I mean we actually get a little bit more heavy
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: and and we're like forty one year old white male
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Republican who makes allars here, you know that sort of thing.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Do you want to play with him? We're not like yeah,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: we're not like absent minded professor from Portland. Uh well
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: not do you want to play with? How much money
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: are you gonna get? Right? Because if you're like, man,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: I just don't trust this guy, You're not you know none,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna keep it that box or like you
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: know you're going to you're gonna head your bets a
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: little bit. Um. And it's it's a tried and true
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: method for kind of demonstrating the biases that people have,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: you know, when you're just flipping one que you can
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: literally see how much more people are willing to give to,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: you know, whether it's a co part is in this party?
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Can I guess? Can I guess that people will tend
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: to give more to someone who they're on the same team?
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Well of course, yeah, i'd game that stuff too. Yeah,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: but you can think about it if beat it for sure,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: But people don't write yeah, I feel like I wouldn't
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: agree with that lady on anything, but I would give
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: her some of the money and she might not give
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: it back, you know. All right, So that's what you
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: mean like to do. So that's that's the measure I
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: used for bias and I and so remember like it's
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: it's latent in our society, like there just is affective
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: bias at all times. People are always preferencing the in
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: party against the out party. So usually you know in
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: social science, if or oftentimes in social science, when you're
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: trying to measure whether or not there's some phenomenon occurring,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: it's like, you know, if I show people this picture,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: do they do some uh consequential action? Why? Right? And
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: a little if I show them a will they do
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: be And it's against like in a control group, or
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: you're not showing them a um, you're you're usually measuring
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: any effect against null, like nothing happening versus something happening.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: But because we are a biased uh community right now,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: there already is this affective bias when I'm studying the
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: impact of threat and I'm talking about self threat increase
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: his affective bias against party opponents. I'm talking about already
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: like it's it's an increase in bias over and already
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: biased um control group, right, which I think is remarkable
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: that we can like we always think, um, it's as
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: bad as it can get the political rhetoric, but we
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: seem like incapable of of you know, not being able
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: to or we we seem like we can quickly kind
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: of turn up how much more angry will get, you know,
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: feel bad about myself, I'm gonna lash out against this
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: party opponent. And I also study like group threat, like
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: what happens when people are you know, when the credible
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: sources passing judgment on Republicans or Democrats and that sort
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: of thing. Um. And then I also have a study.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: My third and final study of the dissertation is a
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: real world examination of whether or not electoral loss constitutes
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: group threat. So we're looking at Democrats versus Republicans responses
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: to the presidential election. I haven't actually analyzed the data
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: for that yet, so I can't say whether that's the case,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: but that's what I do on my day to day ah,
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: my day to day pah study, I guess. Yeah. This
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: is a tricky cycle, though, because the because the party
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: is so redefined. The Republican Party just got so redefined. Yeah,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: and you have so you have a lot of people
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: who are like just discovering the Republican Party under its
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: new form and excited about it, and a lot of
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: people who have been Republicans for a long time who
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: are a little apprehensive about what the party's up to
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: be tricky, and you've got Democrats who are pissed about
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: the primaries on both sides. Um, so yeah, it is tricky.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: I agree with you there for sure. All right. So
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: for the hunt and stuff, Yeah, so you knew about
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: you isolated five arguments that dudes like me give Yes,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: I think you Steve get particularly good ones. Um, but
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: you know, especially in like White Tail Country. Well, can
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: we get back that because you're when you started this
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: when you're laying it out, you were saying that arguments
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: that guys like we give not ones that you give
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: as kind of a new hunter, right, You're saying the
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: ones that are on the out in the ether. I
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: think I've presented that wrong because I don't want to
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: say I've got this golden argument everyone should be making.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: But no, you just noticed that there was a difference
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: in the reaction. Maybe it's even like the the you know,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: variety of arguments I give. Maybe I noticed that, like
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: some people are responding to some better than that. Did
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: you set out to be like I'm going to make
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: a list of five or did you look and say, like,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: here's what's out there. Oh wow, it's five the ladder
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: um and and some of it, you know, because it's
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: not my my usual area of expertise. I don't have
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: this like literature review that I'm able to draw on,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: so some of it was just kind of like my
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: best judgment. Right. So I tend to see a lot
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: of uh, if we want to get into the five,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: I tend to see a lot of hunting as tradition.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Absolutely get into the five. Yeah, so hunting is tradition,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: you know, we hear a lot about like, Okay, my
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: family has been hunting for generations, like a traditional use
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: in the woods, and like it's our American heritage. What
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: about how it's like, um, like about how humans hunted
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: for so long? That is that role in the tradition too?
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: It does, But I didn't that's not how I operationalized
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: tradition for this particular experiment. I didn't get into you
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: look more like family level in each level, um, which
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: and I see a lot of marketing appeals around that certainly,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: and I well, I have my own it's used very
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: heavily marketing And that's why what what That's why I
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: was kind of surprised. What what you found about that?
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: It surprised me a teeny bit. Yeah. Um, some of
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: the other things you found in surprised me at all,
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: but that one surprised me a little bit, just based
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: on the fact that some people think it's such a
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: good idea to approach it that way. Yeah, I mean
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: there's caveats and like, how the hell can you hunt
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: and kill a deer be like well my family, Yeah, yeah,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: it's a well let's talk about the results after, I
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: guess because there are caveats, right, So, uh, first this
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: tradition the second one one? Did I hear a ton
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: especially in white tailed country? It's like, why do you hunt?
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Like hunting is important to control game populations full stop?
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Like I hear this one. This is the one I
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: hear the most that has a zero elaboration on it,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: game population full stop me. And they don't say anything else, right, Yeah,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: and that that's like I gotta control game populations, Like man,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: I can think of plenty of species that are worthwhile
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: of hunting and it's not necessary that we knocked down
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: their numbers, right, Like, It's it's just a fundamentally fundamentally
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: bad argument, I think, because yeah, I've always had it
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: because it like implies that if you don't need to
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: knock down a population you know that's overpopulated, that somehow
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: hunting isn't viable or worthwhile. Yeah, that's the thing when
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: that comes up. The thing I always point out is, uh,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: when people say like, oh, they're overpopulated, I always point out,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: but like there's someone making an estimation here based on
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: based on something. So when someone says deer overpopulated, I'd
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: be like, you know what, the guys I know that
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: are hunting deer in that area don't feel that way.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: But I know that the automobile ensures in the area
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: is certainly feel that way because they're paying out for
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of deer car collisions. I know there's agricultural
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: interests to definitely feel that way. Home gardeners, home gardeners
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: feeah or not. Like fishing game, I only day um
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: last year I saw. So that's the thing. I always that,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: that's the thing. I've always had a hard time with nothing.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: I have a hard time understanding it because you can say,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: like right now, there's many people who are saying snow
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: geese are overpopulated. One might say, by what measure are
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: they overpopulated? And then the ants would be by the
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: measure of the carrying capacity of certain Arctic habitats where
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: other birds have traditionally nested. By that measure, which affects
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: you none. One might say snow geese are overpopulated. The
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: guy hunting snow geese in eastern Montana might wish there
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: was even more snow geese, or the same way like
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: people are I say carp are overpopulated, but then they
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: complain on the carp shooting sucks. You think they'd go
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: out and be like, we had a great night, we
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: couldn't find any carp So it's really tricky. Yeah. I
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: think the concept of overpopulation is you bring up a
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: lot of good points there, but like, uh, but it
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: also implies this sense of like, Okay, whatever metric i'm
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: gonna use. You tell me something's overpopulated. Whatever metric i'm
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: gonna use, that's the benchmark i'm gonna use for weather
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: or not. I think huntings because people know, people say
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: it all the time without probably thinking about to the
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: level we just discussed it. I grew up hearing that
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: all the time. You need to hunt them or they
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: become overpopulistic. We've all heard it, even though and it's
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: just something you hear, and it's only later after you
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: like think about these issues look at them all the time,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: you'd be like overpopulated about what measure by the measure
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: of the man raising sweet corn? There are a lot
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: of raccoons, but other people who go decades about laying
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: eyes on a raccoon not yea, So alright, there's number two. Yeah.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: I mean we hear about it. We hear about it
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: all the time, and Frankly, I was like, well, I
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: certainly have an assumption about how I think this will
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: impact or not impact attitude stores hunting. But you know,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: it's it's a superimental method, like maybe I'm wrong. Let's
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: tell The third one was one that we hear all
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: the time hunting for food consumption, where we just emphasize
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: the like organic, clean nature of the food that we're
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: harvesting to expected to expected it to work. I don't
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: think any of us are surprised about that it's used
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: quite heavily in hunting media. I think it's a good thing.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: It makes a lot of sense, but I just felt
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: like I had to include it. Yeah, it's used more
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: and more. Like ten years ago, people weren't talking about
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's like a new No, they weren't tough body.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: But it's changed a lot. You know, there's a you know,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: you know the historian Randa Williams, Yeah, he's looked at
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: that a lot. Yeah. Yeah, I guess it's like, you know,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: in some a lot of media outlets have tried to
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: tie it into like this new type of hunter, you know,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: like what what describes the it's the whole new like
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: the new hunter thing. It's always like people pushing like
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: the new hunter is always people who uh I will
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: be like, you know, like the conscientious Yeah, unlike all
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: of you I grew up, who all the depraved individuals
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: that I grew up those guys kind, you know, the
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: new kind like me, we only just started care. They
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: only just started eating the stuff they killed too. Oh yeah.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: But it's like it's like the same kind of people,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: you know. It's like when people found out you know,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: like uh, like how bacon became fashionable in the media
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: for a long time. Oh bacon, So it's like yeah,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: no ship, I mean, you know, my grandpa or whatever.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: You know, people have been eating bacon since the beginning
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: of time. But also like you discover it and you
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: can't just have it be that you discover in the
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: way that it's just like people eating like people. There's
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: certain segments in the American population never like discovered bacon.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: It's been eating like religiously consuming bacon. But then there's
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: like this new subset finds out about it and they
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: want to act like their bacon trip is a way
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: different than everyone else. It's like they're bacon trip is
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: more inspired and like means more than the bacon trip
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: that the rest of the has been on forever, Like
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, you think you'd like bacon. I really
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: like bacon. You don't like bacon shirt? Yeah, you know, no,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: I mean I totally agree. I mean that that gets me.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: I think I heard, uh some radio forum where they
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: had representatives from They got someone from like a like
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: a professional kitchen to give their viewpoints on cooking, and
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: then they were like, oh, well, we gotta find someone
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: from the country, and they got someone from the country
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: to give their perspective on hunting. And they're like, but
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: you know, there seems to be a rise and like
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: really conscientious like ego hunters. He's like, yeah, that's like
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: how we've all like, I don't understand what you're trying
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: to Yeah. So um anyways, yeah, so so food had
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: to be included. And then there were two that I
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: hear among certain populations. I mean, you guys, you guys
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: certainly have talked about this, but there are two kind
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: of pro hunting perspectives that I was particularly interested in.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: In addition to testing whether like tradition, I was interested
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: in seeing if it worked or not hunting it hunting
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: his population control. I was like, I'm not sure if
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: it works, but I'll included food. I had to include it.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: But then the regulatory structure and the revenue around hunting.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: I was interested in whether these arguments would change non
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: hunters attitudes towards hunting, because when you I think a
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: lot of non hunters, like urban non hunters, the majority
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: of America, I think when you bring up hunting, a
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: lot of them. Honestly, in my own conversations, I really
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: think it's like, well, I guess just like it during
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: the fall. It's tradition that you just like head into
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: the woods with a gun, like just no concept that
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: it's regulated whatsoever. And when I started talking about state
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: wildlife agencies and uh, you know, population monitoring and then
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: based on that data allocating tags and season length, et cetera,
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: and carrying capacity YadA, YadA, YadA, and how the decisions
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: are made and what the steps you have to go
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: through the hunt, Uh, you know it, it completely opens
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: up a new world for people. Oh my god, I
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: had no idea that, Oh I had. I've had dinner
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: with many many people when I was living in New
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: York who had no idea. They thought it just they
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: thought honestly, you just it was just like you go
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: in the woods, bring a gun, and you just shoot
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: what you see, and no idea that there was like
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: a Bysantine network of regulatory measures employees and frankly, like,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: on the one hand, I'm like, wow, that's a bummer
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: that that's how they're viewing hunting. But on the other hand,
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: let's say someone who thinks that way has a negative
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: perception of hunting. It's like, I can't be that mad
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: at him, Like, yeah, I wish they knew more. But
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: it's like, if they honestly think hunting is just like
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: showing up in the woods and shooting the first thing
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: that runs across me, it's like, all right, well, I
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: can see how they may have come to that concluded,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: like certainly they're wrong, but but yeah, so I was.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: I wondered what the effect of of laying out um
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: kind of in the simplest possible way, the regulatory structure
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: of kind of state management would do to attitude starts hunting.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: And then the last concept was the revenue generated by hunting.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: And this I didn't use the like full economic impact analysis.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: It looks at outdoor you know, sportsman jobs and things
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: like that. I was just looking at the sales from
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: hunting licenses, tags and stamps as well as the Pittman
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Roberts Enact and kind of that cyclical form of revenue structure. Right,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: So these so the single largest source of revenue for
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: state wildlife agencies is is hunting, right, It's a hunting licenses,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: tags and stamps to the tune of and this is
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: a conservative estimate from a couple of years ago, eight
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: million dollars annually their operating So so yet fifty we
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: have fifty states. Obviously we have fifty state fish and
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: wildlife agencies. They have different names, but you know, you
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: can't like fishing, game, wildlife and parks wildlife, you know,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: associating not never association, but wildlife, Department of Natural Resources,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: all these different names. We get one for each state.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: So across the country, those departments derive sixty of their
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: funding from um coming from hunting related sources. Not just
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: like where the state government imposes taxes on the population
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: and takes that tax revenue and distributes it around these
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: different agencies. That's not how they're getting their money. Yeah,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: so yeah, it's it's kind of staggering. The figures really,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: but they're Yeah, they're generating most of their funding from tags, stamps,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: and licenses, right, and they use that money to do
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: wildlife research, habitat improvement, access enhancement, enforcement of existing game laws.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: They do a lot of non game work. So this
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: is they don't just like your Department Officient Game despite
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: the name, doesn't just work on game. It works on
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: non game species. If someone, you know, if there's a
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: problem with a great horned owl, that's as much that
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: person's jurisdiction as any other animals. So it's it's they
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: do an enormous amount of work with this money. Yeah,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: And I think what's what I like about the structure
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: so much is when you add in the Pitman Robertson Act, Right,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: So they have all this money to break that down
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: to a billion dollars from the state level licenses, tags,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: and stamps. Seven, the Federal Aid and Wildlife Restoration Act
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: gets put on the books, more commonly known as a
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: Pitman Robertson Act, and this creates an excise tax on
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: hunting equipment, right, So it's only going to impact hunters
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: if you're purchasing hunting equipment ten to twelve percent of
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: that depending on what you buy is going to get
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: put in this federal fund, like like very select, a
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: very select list of items. Yes, firearms, ammunition. It doesn't
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: straight too far into like like if you're not hunting,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: you're probably not. And there's a similar thing with fishing,
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: which is very specific fishing product products, rods, reels, line boarding, Johnson. Yeah,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: a great name myself back and chuckling right there. Um. Yeah,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: but this Pittock Robertson Act. You you have a federal
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: fund that's uh, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars annually, right,
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: let's call it like two to four hundred million dollars um.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: And the way that it works is your state can
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: apply for some of that federal fund, but you have
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: to adhere to several stipulations. One, and this is the
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: most exciting one for me, is all that money that
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: you generated from licenses, tags and stamps has to be
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: used by your state wildlife agency, you know, whether it's
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Department of Phishing, Game or whatever it is. It would
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: totally get it would totally get spread around the whole state. Um.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: So it's like, well, if you want some of this
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: federal money, you know you can use it uh in
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: many ways that you want to, but it has to
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: stay within the domain of Department of ficiing game. Also
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: the specific project that you're requested, so that's the state money,
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: like you have to use that state money on wildlife.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: For the federal money that they're applying for, it has
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: to be approved by the Secretary of the Interior, so
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: it can't be like just some totally unrelated, non you know,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: non fish and wildlife or habitat related project, so it
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: has to be approved. And then lastly, just to round
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: out this, I really like this from a regulatory standpoint,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: to round it all out, if you don't use that
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: money that you've been allocated by the federal government in
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: two years, it goes to the migratory bird what is
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: my Migratory Bird Conservation Act. Yeah, And so it's it's
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: just a it's just a nicely functioning piece of regulation.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: It was so much bad regulation out there. It's a
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: it's really nice to see. Oh yeah, the story I
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: will not get into it now, but the story of
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: how that that suite of legislation sort of came to pass,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: how quickly it went through, how much support it had
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: in such dire times, yeah, the Affordable Care Act, I
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: think was it took thirteen months. The Deformal Care Act
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: took thirteen months to make its way through. I think
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: that that, and and during the Great Depression made its
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: way through an eighties some days. I mean, Affordable Care
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: Act really took over a century if you think about it.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, and people like the manufacturers who are
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: gonna probably lose sales because the increase in prices of
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: their goods supported it. The people who were going to
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: be paying it, hunters supported it overwhelmingly. And I'll tell
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: you something. Nineteen thirty seven, there wasn't shipped to hunt.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: People have a short memory where they think that like
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: everything's gotten like progressively shittier. There wasn't like you'd have
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: a whole there in seven you had states that you
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: had states. There was no Turkey and deer season. Yeah,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: we were out of game, man, we were out of game.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: And people were like, but from that moment of despair
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: came this sort of like great piece of legislation. So
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: that you've run through all five. Now I want to
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: just do something real quick. Just people who who are
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: our friends out there, who don't who don't don't follow
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: things real close. Greg tested five arguments that you can
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: lay on a non hunter when you jump in here,
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: there's a six which control group, the control group that
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: you know, control group, you know, so we can compare
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: to a non hunting baseline. They just got a message
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: about like household appliances. Oh right, because it has no
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: impact on hunting whatsoever. You have to have a control
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: group otherwise it's like, how do we feel about hunting
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: when you consider the atretes of this toaster? Like look
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: at this sponge? So bad hunting again? Yeah, so it
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: took five arguments that folks like to get. Correct me
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: from all five arguments that you might give word to
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: come to you and be like, you're such an asshole.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: How could you shoot a deer? You might say, hey, man,
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: my family is always hunted. You might say that's what
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: I eat. You might say, listen me, shooting a deer
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: brings a lot of money to wildlife conservation. You might say,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: it's not like I'm just randomly going and shooting a deer.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, biologist have determined how many deer are out there,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: what the surplus is, what we're gonna wind up having. Anyways,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: and they set this whole season, and there's ten days
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: and we only have tempercent success rates. And you might say, well, hey,
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: if I don't shoot them, they're coming for you, for you,
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: and they're gonna beat your door down and kill you
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: with their deer hoofs, and then disease is gonna kill
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: and then disease is gonna kill them all. Anyway, we
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: won't have any So now which of these are gold,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: which of these are's gold? And which of these are garbage?
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: But we got a series of nonresult like stuff that
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: didn't work and stuff that did work, And I think
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: they are interesting consequences for hunting as tradition. What I'm
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: going to tradition argue, Yeah, me saying, hey man, my
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: dad hunting didn't do anything not hunters do not care
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: about it. I don't kind of makes sense, right. It's like, well,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: just because you guys been doing it for a long
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: time doesn't make it worthwhile. Right. When I put that too,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: I put something similar to a I put something similar
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: to an animal to an animal rights activist. I was
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: actually interviewing an animal ethicist and I put that to him,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: and he his his well rehearsed takedown of that line
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: was We've always done everything. I mean, humans have always raped,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: humans have always had war. So just because we've been
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: doing something doesn't mean that that's good. Yeah. I agree
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: with that assessment. Yeah, because I proceeded then rip holes
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: an ash. But anyways, he had a well rehearsed reply
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: to that, you know, that was fundamentally compelling in a
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: short package, such as he would get in a conversation,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: not fundamentally compelling. Now, as part of a broader tapestry,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: of course, it could become interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I will
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: give the caveat that. When we talk about what makes
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: hunting resonates so well with the American pablic there are historical, sociological,
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: lots of perspectives you can take that you would need
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: to get a holistic picture right, And this first step
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: by me was strictly isolating elements of various people weren't
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: buying it and what worked and what didn't in this
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: in this very isolated environment. Um. Yeah, So now why
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: do you think that is that you take it because
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: it's like because of what I'm saying, because like, well
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: that's just the fact that you did it doesn't make
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: it right. Yeah, I just yeah, I don't want to
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: get I don't really want to get into why because
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: the data don't speak to that. It just doesn't work.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: But but my assumptions are exactly what you're saying. Just
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: because you've died for a long time doesn't make it
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: an inherently good thing. Humans have been doing bad things
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: for a long time, They've been doing good things for
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: a long time, but the length has has no bearing
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: on it. Right, how big was the group? Uh? The
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: sample of six people? Did anybody be like, oh, okay,
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: well did anybody I'm sure there's like one one is
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: one of two people in that condition and who are like, yeah,
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: I feel more positive forwards tonic, But statistically no, it
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: was statically, which is the important part. That's because it
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: can't be binary. Right, It's not like works don't work.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: It's worked on Steve. Yeah. But I'm saying like, okay,
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: so whatever the sample size, I mean, like, how much
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: didn't it work? Like it really doesn't work. Well, then
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: you get into like a discussion of what significance values means,
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: and that you get into mathom Okay, what is insignificant?
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: What does that mean? Well, the conventional level of significance
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: numerically is a key value of less than point zero five,
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: which I guess has popularly been described as the relationship
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: you found has less than a five percent chance of
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: having happened just by coincidence, which I'm sure there's mathematicians
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: and statisticians out there who are just losing it at
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: the radio. But but listen, have them send their have
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: them in their hatred my way way. These guys are
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: deferred to meet then, because I'm putting you in an
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: awkward position. I just did not meet. It didn't meet
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: point of five, it didn't meet point one. I mean,
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: it didn't meet the conventional levels and you and I
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: want to help you out here because I feel bad
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: because like your whole training right, Like I'm I'm asking
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: you to do things that fall way outside your comfort
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: zone and way outside your training. And I find that
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: when I'm talking to researchers, you know, my brother's research
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: and I'm time of research, and I'm like, what did
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: your hope would happen? It's like, you can't happen. They're like,
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: what are you talking about? I'm like, you know right,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: so yes, I'm pressing you too. I'm pressing Greg our guest.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: I'm pressing him to to to to to, you know,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: put a shine on some things that didn't fall outside
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: so well. I mean I can admit to like I
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: certainly had assumptions about what would wouldn't work right, and
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: and hope is an interesting word. I didn't hope some
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: would work and some wouldn't. But you know, I had
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: my own guesses as were like I bet, I bet
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: this one turns out right. But you know, if you
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: use a scientific method, it should tell you the truth.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: And it's not doing well, Yeah, like, oh, I got
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: an idea, I'm gonna make this tradition one work. In
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: that way, it's probably almost good to be a little
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: bit aware of your biases because then you can help
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: make sure they're not running away with you. It's good
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: scientific practice. Okay, so um, so you're not but you're
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: not gonna spec You don't want to speculate just when
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: you say, like, why significant difference in people's attitudes towards
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: hunting from time one to time too? So the population.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: I think during time one, I sampled about a thousand people.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: I got their attitudes towards hunting using kind of conventional
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: survey questions. I recontacted six hundred a couple of weeks
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: later randomly assigned them to one of the six conditions
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: the five perspectives in the control group, and then use
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: the same question to reassess their views towards hunting. So
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: it's within subject and that you can compare this person's uh,
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: you know, these individuals answers at time to versus time one.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: It's see within the subject whether there was any change, right,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: and so for tradition, there was no statistically significant change.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Is dead or dad? That's what put on your report.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it did nothing happen about it didn't go
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: the other way, and they didn't get angry about hunting.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: It just you know, because we would have picked that
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: up too, oh like because you could have measured and
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: could measure. Yeah, they would be interesting. It doesn't back
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: It doesn't backfire. It just does nothing, doesn't ship. Just
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: keep your mouth shut. Well, it's a little bit of
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: really to talk about this, but it's like, uh, I
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: think using the tradition argument is good in certain contexts. Right,
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: we're talking about perceptions of hunting from non hunters. If
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: you're b h A you know, and you're your r
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: m EF and that he's back anglers Rocky Mountain Foundation
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: and you're trying to like generate donations or membership. Hell yeah,
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: to talk about tradition like that might resonate. It was
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: a number of conservation organizations, some which I'm involved in
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: who when aquing internally. Yeah, for marketing, they push it
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: very heavy because people that's because people, because people within
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: the hunting world do care so much about that. I've
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: talked about this with with Landed. I mean, I'm one
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: of those hunters. He responds to it, you know, like, yeah,
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: it works on me, But I'm not a non hunter.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: And the reason that I'm interested in not hunters. And
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: so it's like if we are going to continue hunting
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: and keep enjoying kind of the model we have in
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: front of us, like, we are absolutely going to have
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: to rely on non hunters. And it's really nice that
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: they generally have a positive view of hunting right now,
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: but but we've constantly got to be vigilant. That's why
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: I'm always do you bring up my favorite subject are
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: Like I've had someone recently who's like, dude, the antis
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: can kick rocks. I'm like, that's a ludicrous position. Rocks
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: They said, kick rocks. Yeah, Uh, I means go pick mushroom.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: I get what it means, but it's like it's like
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: so old timing, pretty old, just like, yeah, I just
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: now have our our privilege to hunt. Is it really
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: at the whim of non hunters? Yeah, and that's my
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: favorite subject. But that didn't work. But I'm not saying
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: it's a bad argument to use with hunters. It resonates
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: with me, you know, for sure, but I'm amongst non
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: hunters in my sample. It didn't work. The next one
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: population control. You know, we got a hunt. You know,
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: wheny many hunters, when when polled, say that hunting is
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: important because it controls game populations, didn't do anything that
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: surprised me a little bit in that es much as
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: we just talked about it. Because this, I think when
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: people most people in the country living white tailed deer
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: country most by far white tails account for like the
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: most main hours of hunting time, right. Um, So I
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: think when people say like game hunting, a lot of
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: people are automatically jumping to a deer hunting Oh yeah,
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: I think most people when you people do live in
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: fear and deer heavy areas. It's a thing where you're
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: like driving along night and you're hoping that you don't
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: hit a deer, and everybody over over time in these areas,
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: which is like the majority of the country, you were
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: someone and you're very close to hits a deer, right,
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: It's a thing. I'm surprised that people don't. It doesn't
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: mean more to people assuming that what they're picturing when
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: they hear the word game is deer, and what they're
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: picturing when they hear the word over population is you
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: hitting one of those deer with your car. I think
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: it's a I think it's a valid perspective to have,
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: and I mean, but it just doesn't It doesn't measure
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: even looking at the sample like isolating to a white
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: tail country, which is which it's difficult honestly, if you're thinking,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: like I'm not gonna do this by states, if you like,
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: where am I going to draw the line? Really and frankly,
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of If I run into people who
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: don't hunt in the West, they're still thinking eastern white
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: tail like tree stand white. If you pull heavy drinkers
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: in rural Midwestern areas who are driving people who are
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: driving home one two in the morning, I think you
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: would are drinking gardeners in the Midwest. But yeah, I agree,
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: And and this gets back to my last point, which
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: is like, yeah, there are definitely populations out there for
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: whom these arguments rest, you know, but this is a
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of a wide sample. Um. Yeah, yeah,
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: So yeah my point. I thought that, like I would
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: have thought that that would have that that those things
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: that have just been basically you're asking people about their
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: feelings about white tailed deer and they would have answered
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: based on their likelihood of crashing in the one. Yeah,
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: I mean that might be just a reflection where I
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: grew up, where hitting deer was like a daily part
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: of light. Yeah. Man, I it's a yeah. You know.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: I wasn't sure about that one. Frankly, like I didn't.
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: I didn't think it would work. But when I was
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: actually doing the kind of geographical controlling that I'm talking about,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: I was like, I bet it works in the Midwest,
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: right And I couldn't find it. Um, But you know,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: who knows, at least for our sample. It didn't change
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: attitude storres hunting. It didn't make negative but it was
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: just a flat like tradition. Another question ahead. I was
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: just gonna say, can you explain what it sounds like
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: when someone's attitude about hunting changed in this when you
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: asked the question the second time, like what was the
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: first answer? Then what was the second answer? Um, Well,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: so I'll give the I guess I'll give the structure
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: of the experiment. So during time one, in addition to
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: like several demographic questions, we asked how do you feel
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: about hunting in the United States? And there was a
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: sliding scale from one to seven, from like really support
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: to like really oppose, and you could just pick a
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: numerical value between one and seven. Uh. And then it's
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: time two. You were exposed to one of six arguments.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: And this is actually interesting because you guys have seen
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: them their animations instead of like they're not people aren't
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: reading about this, they're seeing animations. And the reason that
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: I did animations was, let's say you get the population
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: control argument, which is an inherently short argument, right. I
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: think the clip itself was like fifteen seconds, and it's
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: something to the effect of, like many hunters, when pulled,
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: say that hunting is important because it's necessary to control
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: for game populations. And then the clip kind of ends. Right,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: But if we're talking about Pittman Robertson, and we're talking
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: about state wildlife agencies like those are inherently longer arguments.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: And so I thought, if this is gonna be text,
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna show people text passages. What we're gonna do
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: is we're gonna have people's eyes glaze over. If you're
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: Honey and you're reading about the Federal Aid and Wildlife
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: Restoration Act, you're gonna be like, this is the worst
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: experiment I've ever did. Then you're more like studying people
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: reading conferdention skills, you know. And so I thought, how
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: can I package these different length arguments in ways that
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: will still be like standardized in terms of digestibility. And
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: so I thought, oh, I'll make some animations. I have
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: a buddy who's an animator, and so that's why i've
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: kind of and they're really like clean cut and dry animations.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: They're not sort of meant to there's not like a
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: b roll and look pretty. I mean, they're like they're straightforward.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: I mean it's for scientific purposes right there. Straightforward. They're clean,
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: they're they're made to be there's like no no, I
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: mean you know when you get right. They're not they're
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: not trying to sell anything. Um. I guess you could
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: make the argument that when you get into making something
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: like an animation, you're going to have some kind of
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: implicit bias. But I did my best as a scientist
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: to make them as objective as possible and just reflect
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: the text passages. I wanted them to reflect in the
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: simil responssible way. Um. And then after they watched this, right,
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: and remember it's been like two weeks since I asked
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: him the first time, they get the same question, how
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: do you feel about hunting the United States? From the
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: one to seven scale? And so you can see like
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: if they answered you know three, you know, slightly opposed,
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: and now they answer five, that's an increase of two, right,
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: and and how much they you know they have they
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: are now they feel statistically different about hunting than they
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: did at time one. And the reason we have the
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: control group is because you know, something could have happened
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: in the interim. You could have had Cecil, the lion happened,
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: you know, one week after I asked him, And then
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: it's like Cecil, Yeah, whomever the lion could have happened
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: in the middle, and yeah, you know, you could have
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: had some outside influence that is accountable for for whatever,
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: ah kind of relationship you're finding, which is which of
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: course the importance of the control group. So that's so
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: that's generally what it looked like. Um so yeah, tradition,
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: population control, just flat food, like we all expect. Statistically significant,
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: I think it has I had that. I think it
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: had the largest coefficient as well, and that it was
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: the most impactful argument, which doesn't surprise me. I mean,
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: I think we've talked about it kind of ad nauseum.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: So it's not like terribly interesting to me. But people
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: generally are non hunters generally respond favorably to hunters talking
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: about you know, going out and sustainably harvesting food and
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: it's organic and you don't have to rely on factory
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: ranching or farming, and you know, people are generally amountable
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: to I think people too, are are generally kind of pragmatic, man.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, people don't like ship to go to waste.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: I think that that when you explain to them it
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: does go a waste. In fact, it's it's it's good.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: It feels good to them, it feels better. Like I
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: think there's this impression it's just like, uh, oh, you're
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: like cutting their head off and you hang out a wall,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: and then I think rods in the ditch. I mean,
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: when you explain you know, actually that's that's illegal, and
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: people you know go to jail and lose are hunting
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: rights for doing ship like that. I think sometimes people
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: feel like they feel sort of relaxed about the issue
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: knowing that that's the case. Well, I didn't talk about
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: like game use regulations are like waste or anything like that.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: It was it was more about you know, many hunters
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: when their hunting talk about how they're you know, they'd
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: like to be able to come home give food to
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: their family, and that they describe me recognizable terms such
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: as like you know, sustainable, organic, free range, and they
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: don't have to go to the grocery store any factor
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: be produced, uh, you know, very straightforward. And again a
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: lot of this is uh just you know, an artifact
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: of me running an experiment, right Like I wanted to
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: be able to isolate it. And if I joined that
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: argument with the argument you're making about game waste laws,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: then it's like wow, well which is it? Um? Yeah,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: And and so that one worked. You know, I think
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: it's a definitely a great tactic to use UM with
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: with non hunters, and I think it's totally valid to
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: it's not these Remember these aren't just like marketing strategies.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of them have validity, and certainly
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: sustainably harvesting your own food UH is valid um. Now,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: the most interesting result in the whole experiment to me
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: was the regulatory structure, so simply explaining the fact that
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: hunting is regulated by state Fish and Wildlife commissions and
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: that they have wildlife biologists whose job it is is
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: to monitor populations and then make decisions about what that
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: entails for the hunting season. So you know, theoretically, you
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: could have a population that is so low that they
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: determine eight, we're not gonna hunt, are so high that
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be like, hey, these are over the counter tags.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: Were in the middle where it's like, Okay, we're gonna
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: do a lot of you know, we're gonna do a
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: draw for this, and that there is a feedback loop,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: a constant feedback loop on hey we're managing these populations oftentimes,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: that there's a mandate for longevity or perpetuity UH, and
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: the actual biologists are out there making decisions about who
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: can hunt, how many people can hunt, when they can hunt? Um,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: And that worked just explaining that no, like hunting is
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: good because of A, B and C, just like, here's
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: the regulation surrounding hunting. And we broke down basically state
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: fish and wildlife agencies and we didn't say anything about
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: the ESA or anything like that. This is just state
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: level management and people's attitudes towards hunting improved. And I
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: think that's really interesting and may I guess on a
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: really abstract level level, it's like it's hardening, right, you know,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: I was struggling for what it was. I was struggling
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: for the right word. It's hardening. So I think that
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: it's easy to fall into this trap of being like, oh,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: anyone that doesn't agree with me, it's just the people
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: are so dumb now and yeah, and I'd be like no,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: because you know, often times people have you don't know
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: what you don't know? Yeah, people I have an opinion
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: and maybe they're not totally married to it, and then
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: you present them with some information and they're like, oh, yeah,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: you know I feel better about that now. Yeah. It's uh, yeah,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: it was definitely hardening to see if you just present
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: people with with some facts. And you know, people can
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: only make deductions about what they're exposed to if you
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: present them with the facts, that they will in fact,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: you know ingest them and make a make a decision
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: after that. And that it in fact does make people
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: more positive about hunting was huge. Um. And and you
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: can tell you, I tell you a quick story. Sure
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: the already I was walking down the road near here
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: and some guy was handing out flyers about how he
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: wanted to get a four way stop put in somewhere
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: where there wasn't a four way stop. I was initially
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: resistant to the idea because I'm just you know, just
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: general weariness about more rules. Remember talking about change. Dude,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: I have this people with clipboards on the streets. Then
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: the dude told me this. He showed me a bunch
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: of stuff saying, in fact, four way stop will probably
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: speed things up at this intersection. Wow. I'm like, all right,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: I'll sign your thing. I didn't know that. I didn't
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: know that that was true. I wonder if it is.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: I was swayed by I was swayed by data. I
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: went from not one to I went I went from
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: wanting to tear his clipboard up to sign him one
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: of his pieces of paper. Well, it's compelling stuff and
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: it's I'm happy to hear that. In my sample, a
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: lot of people are like you right, like And it
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: was also this was by far the densest possible perspective.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: It's why we had to create animations, right, And it
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: still worked for sure, because yeah, you're dealing with and
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: you're not making any emotional argument about like my attachment
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: to hunting. It's like, yeah, I do have it because
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: you like the food in language. Yeah. Yeah, it's just
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: like here's the regulation. Yeah. So that was a really
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: cool finding I think. Um, and that was probably without
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: explain to him like how dance and how hard it
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: is to understand those breaking regulations books, right, Yeah, we
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: just laid it out. I mean we had little animations
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: of like calendars and video licenses. Yeah, I think we might. Um,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: it's not manipulative, but it's it's a great video. I
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: thought it's not. Man I would hope it's not manipulative,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. It's like it again, it's
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: like you did a good job. It's like you're not like, uh,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: like if if someone said to me, like make a
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: video like that, I would have taken away different approach,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: and you're like you were able to sort of stick
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: to the mandates of your job and be like, how
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: can I I'm a just good experience. How can I
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: just like explain it without waiting it in one way
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: or the other, you know, because it would have been
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: like these wonderful, really smart but yeah, it's uh. I
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: think I might try to repurpose them and release some
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: of them to the public, you know, because I think, like, honestly,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: it's thrilling just just explaining the regulation surrounding hunting is
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: making people feel more positively towards it. I think it's huge,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: and it gives us another perspective aside from food. And
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: like I was telling Steve, we really need non hunters.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: You know, hunters are at the whim of non hunters.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: We really rely on kind of their judgments to give
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: us the privilege of hunting. Um. And so the last
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: condition is the revenue surrounding hunting, right, And I broke
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: it down earlier, and that was interesting and that it
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: worked when moderated by people's self reported strength of environmental beliefs.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: So there was another question, right that was, like I
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: had to ask it vaguely because I didn't want to
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: go down rabbit holes of like trying to define what
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: environmentalism is because it is a loaded term, right, I asked, um,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: you know how strong are your environmental beliefs? I don't
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: remember the exact words, but it was something to the
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: effected that on another sliding scale, and the higher your
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: environmental beliefs, or the higher your concern for the environment, um,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: the less likely a revenue argument was to work for you.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: But if you yeah, so, but you told me about this,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: I thought you meant the opposite, the less likely it
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: was gonna work. So for people who were like, like,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: I'm a hardist environmentalist. Yeah, but I'll tell you why.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: It's because I still feel like I'm getting you wrong.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: You're telling me that a hard hitting someone who identifies
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: as a hard hitting environmentalist was less likely to be
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: swayed by the by the financial impact of haunting and
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: fishing licenses on wildlife conservation. Well, it's that last thing
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: you said on wildlife conservation. In an effort to isolate
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: the revenue argument, I tried to I mean, in some
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: ways it's unavoidable to tie into conservation, but the emphasis
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: in that particular audition was not like and all this
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: money goes to conservation. I mean, I of course had
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: to talk about it. When I had to talk about it,
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: how do you say where the money goes? I did say,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: you know, this money has to be spent by the
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: State Department of Fishing Game, but you don't get into
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: what they do with it. I said things like habitat improvement.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: But I mean the bulk of the video was very
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: much focused on just like here is the money generated.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: You know, you've got eight hundred million dollars in license
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: at tax stamps. You've got additional a few hundred million
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: dollars at the pivot Roberts and exercise tax and that's
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: like one point two billion dollars. Showed a bunch of
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: panda bears and lions and stuff drinking out of a
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: water together. I think we had some trees and coupling
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: animals at some point. But but yeah, like if I
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: was if I was you know, if I took off
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: my social scientists hat and I was trying to make
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: a pitch around the revenue, I'd absolutely hammer the fact that, like, look,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: all this money is going into conservation. And I think
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: that that's that that's a valid argument for sure, But
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: I was just trying to isolate, like I wonder if
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: just a strict money argument surrounding hunting you can actually
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: can actually affect attitudes, and for people who did not
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: self identify as an environmentalist or or say that they
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: were high on the scale, it did work, which kind
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: of makes sense. I know you don't do why why Well,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: all right, I'll get into this one. And I think
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: it's because, like, if you really care about the environment,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: someone's telling you, like this activity generates three million allars,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: You're like, well, that's great, you know, but I but
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: does that impact the environment? You know, like, is it
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: actually good for the environment? I don't care how much
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: money it's making. You know, that's um and so I
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: think that's what's responsible for going on. I'm making assumptions
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: about that. But that's my best guess, right, is if
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: you really care about the environment, you're like, Okay, listen,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: all this money generated is great, but I'm not you know,
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: you haven't told me about ah, you know why hunting
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: is good for the environment. It's that's a really tricky
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: word to just environment environmentalist because like in my own
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: lifetime um. Early on, like an environmentalist was basically that
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: means you didn't like litter, right, Like the earliest part
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: of the environmental moment was like was was interpreted to
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: people like don't throw fast food rappers out the end
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: of your car, which is just aesthetics like you think
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: a monkey ranch gang. Yeah, the guy those beer cans
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: window because he hates the damn road. He's like, the
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: road is the problem is that the beer can. I'm
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: defiling the road, which I don't like. So that was
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: one thing for a while. Then it was like, for
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: while I interpreted the environmental movement as a young person
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: to be that it was synonymous with animal rights, which
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: is like my interpretation right now I think that someone
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: says like are you environmentalists? Now it's becoming sort of
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: saying like how do you feel about human cause climate change?
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: It's almost like you know what I mean, Like the
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: word is um, yeah, it moves around creepy ways. You know,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: I'm not the creepies out the right word, but this
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: moves around. It attaches itself two things informs these sort
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: of like a exting relationships with certain issues. But then
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: and I used to always really like the word conservationist.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: But now it's almost like a battle there because conservations
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: for a long time had a I feel that it
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: was that it was tightly connected with basically like honey,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: Like honey and hunter fisherman based environmentalism would would go
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: under conservation because they're stealing our word. There's stealing our
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: word because they know that their word has a negative
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: Their word has a negative feeling in the American mind.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: I think there is a negative connotation of the world.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: So now environmental groups are being like conservation has a
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: more measured, practical, you know, things up and open on
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: top of the table kind of feel to it, and
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: environmentalism makes people feel a little prickly. Yeah, I totally
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: hijacking our word. I mean I strategically use both drives
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: people nuts, But I'm an environmentalist. How conservationists like? I think,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: I really think people don't like to say that it's
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: the same thing. No, but I do it to message.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: I think the line is so arbitrted. I'm like, you know,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: I'm a hunter. You mean meaning I'm an environmentalist. Yeah, dude,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: I do the same thing. That division drives me crazy.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: I used a mess of people. Yeah, Oh, I do too. Absolutely. Um,
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: I think honestly, it's like I think because I study politics,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: it's like environmentalists, Oh you're a liberal conservationist. Yeah, yeah, exactly,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: it's a it's a proxy for I like to just
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: use both all the time and tell people the divisions.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: And I'm talking to lefties, but I'm talking to lefties.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: I do use I do try to speak of myself
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: as an environmentalist as being like, I have way more
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: in the game than you do as a hunter environmentalist. Yeah,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: but if I'm talking to like some old hardly adversarial tone.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: But if I'm talking to like some old timers who
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: might not know what I'm getting at, then yeah, he's
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: like we all played little games, you know. I mean,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: you've got to have source credibility with your audience whoever
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: it is right, and I certainly do that. And that's
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: what we're talking about. We're talking about how to wrestle
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: with absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there's so many more things
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: I would love to do in this domain, and I'm
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: it'd be exciting to crack into more. So I wonder
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: what the reception to this, So what will happen with
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: your stuff? You're gonna put it out there. So what
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna do? You think you should not put it
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: out there? Just let's just leak it to the proper
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: people so we know how to tailor our arguments to win,
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: because once you put it out there, it's going to
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: diffuse it, I don't think so. I mean, it's not
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: like these aren't heavy handed marketing appeals. And I'm testing, right,
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: It's not like I was doing these pitch videos. It's like,
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: let's see which one works best. You know, they're just
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: straightforward arguments, and I think people are reasonable enough to
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: see that, Like all the arguments are actually they're all
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: factually accurate, the population control one being in some specific
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: instances it's actually accurate and others it's not. But they're
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: all just like accurate assessments of pro hunting perspectives. And
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: you're gonna publish this in a journal, but don't you
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: want to do something like because you know it's something?
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: When is it there? Whenever we get around to it. Okay,
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: sometime within the next eight weeks anyways, all right, so
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: I believe the time probably January, okay, perfect, So by
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: the time this is aired, this the article will have
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: been submitted to an academic journal within the realm of
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: wildlife management. Oh, I'm going both routes, so and here's why.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: So I'm submitting it to an academic journal. So do
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: They'll go through peer review and people see like, this
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: is a legitimate study like this I have, like you know,
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: I know what I'm doing. It can stand up to
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: pure review and it'll get published. And then I would
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: love to do a popular uh peace surrounding this. You know,
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: no one's gonna go, oh, let me get on j
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: store and look up some academic article about this, but
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: they will read something and I don't know your New
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: York Times WAPO. I mean, I'm probably shooting way too high,
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: but but I'd love to do I'd love to do
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: a popular cover of these findings and write that up
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: and uh kind of a more holistic approach, because then
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: we wouldn't have to be so kind of broken down
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: into our like social side, like oh, well, I can't
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: talk about that, you know, I can't make assumptions about
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: why they felt that way. You know, you really can
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: do these things if it's an op ed um. But
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: I want people to know that when I'm referencing my results,
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: it's not like I just did. Oh yeah, I did
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: some study on my computer and write. I don't know
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: that it's a legitimate study. I know. I know it's
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: controversial in your community, in the academic, you know, in
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: the scholar of the world. But I think there's great
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: value in it in learning how to sort of like
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: translate some findings and help people make sense out of stuff.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: It is controversial, and I agree with you for sure.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: I think people pop science, Yeah, but people like the
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: lamb ast Like like if if a paleontologist or an
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: archaeologist is working on something and then they come out
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: and do a popular piece and and don't and don't
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: stress all the caveats quite enough, and like and stress
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: how subject to um, you know, how subject to error
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: the radio carbon dating might be. That then they get
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: raked through the coals for like overblowing their data. Yeah,
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: it was like, what is the net? What's the like
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: the net goal? I feel like you might say, like
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: I feel my article made the public a little bit smarter. Now,
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: sure we could have withheld all the information, you know,
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: but isn't the end thing to sort of like enlighten
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: people around you. I mean, I just I had this
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: conversation some people that kind of drives me us and
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: they have this aversion to being too people saying like, basically,
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: here's what I'm getting at. Yeah, Yeah, I think you're right,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: And I mean I've witnessed tons of arguments surrounding this.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: I have a to agree with you completely that it's
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, in a strict academic sense. You could say,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: I am only here to further on knowledge, you know,
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: and it's like people want to read my stuff, they'll
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: see that we have advanced human knowledge down the field, right,
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: But I agree with you that, um, there's nothing inherently wrong,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: and I see a lot of good coming from covering
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: this in a more accessible, popular manner, and that you
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: can encapsulate your arguments and speculate maybe as to what
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: that entails without you know, delegitimizing science socially, and someone's
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: going to pick up on it anyway though. Yeah, like
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: any kind of groundbreaking work, it winds up getting interpreted
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: by journalists anyway. So if you could be in a
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: little bit in the driver's seat, and how if you
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: could see through the publication on your own and be
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: a little bit of the driver's seat to help them
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: avoid some of the pitfalls that are out there. All
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: the better because if you have something earth shattering, people
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: are gonna write about it, mess it all up anyhow.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, yeah, I totally agree. And I
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: read archaeology piece recently where it's like someone interpreting something
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: in a journal and I'm like, there's no way that
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: the that the research you would agree with the way
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: you encapsulated the findings. Yeah. I think the time like
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: a little bit that that people are becoming kind of
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: more friendly with the with op eds about their work. Um,
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: I hear. What's funny is that isn't true that most
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: of the time you don't get to pick the head line.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: That the editor picks the headline. Yeah, that's generally true.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: That one gets me, man, because it's like you can
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: have people choose these like clickplate inflammatory headlines and well yeah,
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: but different but different organizations have. Um, you know, some
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: organizations really have they have a system in place that
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: keeps things like somewhat neutral, right, and somethings just go
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: for inflammatory bullshit. But some places, you know, you wouldn't
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: be able to pick it because they would be afraid
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: you'd oversell it. Yeah, and in some places wouldn't they
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: would be horrified. I mean, I'm not the conversations I'm
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: hearing ore from like click baity places, but it's probably
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: people with their academic hats on being like, oh, he
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: didn't quite capture the caveats I was talking about in
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: that headlines. It's probably that in tendency. But but I
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: certainly have no problem with going into the public domain.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: And I think that's my ultimate objective I think, which
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: is as an academic, you know, it's that'll probably rub
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: some people the wrong way that the peer reviewed piece
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: isn't my ultimate objective. It's like a way to demon
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: straight that what I've done is scientifically legitimate. And then
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: I want, yeah, I want to talk about it with people.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: I want to get it out there. Um, And yeah,
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: I hope the hunting community kind of looks at it
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: and I don't know, maybe make some smart decisions with it.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I think they will, I hope. So, yeah,
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: it seems to be resonating with a lot of people
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: that I'm talking to, But I could be in our
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: you know, the modern look of war green hunter who
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: all the wildlife but not those last this year. They're
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: the good ones. Um, I've told a coupe of people
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: about it your stuff, and they how they react like surprised,
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: very interested, anxiously awaiting to that's great to hear. You
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: call people within who work in the world, you know,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: marketing worlds and things, and I told him did I'll
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: be like, well, you know, I leaked a little bit,
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: but I said, you have to have to check with
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: him when he gets his stuff done. Yeah, I mean,
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: I hope it's interesting. I think a lot of the
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: organizations I naturally think of our marketing to mostly the
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: hunters to retain membership or drive membership, so it might
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: not be totally, um, you know, totally particular to them,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: but but yeah, I think more generally, man, we gotta
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: we have to make sure that um, non hunters really
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: understand that it's not a bad thing. I'm the real
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: they support it, and like, here's why. There are legitimate reasons.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: It's not just marketing appeals like regulation itself. The more
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: you know, m yeah, you got concluding thoughts. Yeah, well, yeah,
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: it's on the heels of that. It's like we can't
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: go around and patting ourselves on the back and sitting
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: around and going yeah, we're gonna raise our kids hunting vision.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: It's gonna be great. Everybody's gonna keep doing it forever.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: We gotta get everybody else on board so we can
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: look a clip. And you've always said that, you know,
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: venice and diplomacy. Oh yeah, you know. I mean that's okay.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: I thought you meant something different. I thought you meant
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: something different by your concluding thought. No, I was saying
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: that it seems like hunters are real good hanging around
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: bullshitting with each other, yeah, and being like, yeah, yeah,
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: we have we kind of reach that we can't just talk.
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: And then it's like, like you said, they're just like yep, no,
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: we're just controlling deer populations. Yeah, and they have nothing
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: more to add to that. Now. You know you can
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: throw that one out, Yeah, adds something different and talk
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: about food. But I'll point out to if you're gonna
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: use the food one, don't be a bullshitter man. Take
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: good care of your game meat. Don't just start talking
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: about stuff you have no organic interest in, but you're
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: just using it because you like the sounds or you
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: know what works. What's riding your gears there? Who are
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: you thinking about? You know what I'm just saying live,
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: if you're gonna, if you're gonna, you know you're gonna
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: talk talk. How's that saying? Go walk walk? No, I
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: agree with you. There, there's a there's a little bit
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: of that going on in hunting social media. I don't
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: know if we can you know how how much. I'm
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: not gonna slam anybody in particular, but there's definitely some
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: of that that goes on where I feel like I
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: see a lot of like this, like it's the only
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: organic meat, it's all eat blah blah blah. I'm like,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: man like, I don't think you've even broken down your
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: own animal once you know every animal you ever kill,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: went down to seeze meat market. I think I think
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: it's I think man um. I recently was talking to
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: someone who's talking about some person that you killed the
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: elk can they were able to roll in the back
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: of the truck. Later they're headed a butcher shop and
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: or they're breaking down like a meat locker, and he
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: took the leg out and put in his backpack and
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: went back out to do the packout photos. I've been there.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: I've been there. I've driven a few mule deer around it.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: Back to the trucks. Different you know, precipicees and you
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: know nice vistas, got out and you carried the deer
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: up there and take a picture. Well, no, be a
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: truck tuck, but's a different location. Was the truck do
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: like them out gripping grids in various places? Yeah, I
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: think that's common practice. It's that for the guys that
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: are really into grips. But that's different than doing, like
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: than going out to rolling in your truck and then
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: later going out and doing your pack out shots. Yeah,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: that's just disingenuous. Oh pack out No, no, no, not
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: gripping grind No, rolled it into your truck, took it
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: into a meat processing place, grabbed the back leg, put
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: it in the backpack, and then went out and did
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: a photos series of packing the meat out. Nice. Yeah,
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: it's like some of the folks packing out antlers in
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: the magazines. I'm like, what in the world is this
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: guy doing? Like, yeah, so dude on top of a high,
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: high peak with just the set of antlers, Like you
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: mean to tell me, Hold on a minute, you're telling
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: me that marketing has lied to me me. Usually don't
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: pack around antlers the whole time. You're hunting and bugling,
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: you don't usually do the same. Yeah, yeah, that's another class.
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: Because the dude with apparent antlers strapped on his back
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: on a peak, ripping a bugle, He's like, I got one.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: I took the antlers off it. Now I'm going to
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: get me another one. I have a concluding concluder, and
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: just so I don't steal Greg's because he's gonna get
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: the final glory with keeping public. I know I've got several,
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: but I'm gonna I'm just gonna stick this in here
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: right now so that I don't have to say anything later.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: I'll add to something later. But Greg's well aware of this,
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: uh topic. But oh my god, I'm on this. I
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: don't know how good they are. That is the jumping
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: the fire. That is the exact perch on air to
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: see if they would work. Now you can see. My
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: daughter was helping me last night and she saw the
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: pink calftail and she's like, well, you got a tap.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: Think it gonna work, dude, that's exactly now. I had
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: a couple of guys, had a couple of extremely generous
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: people send me a couple of perch flies, and they
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: were good but these are the this is what my
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: now here's the thing. This, this is what my old
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: man type like. Like. The guy that invented this fly
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: is a commercial bait fisherman named Ron Spring. Ron was
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: my dad's fishing body. And Ron made his living when
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: you went into bought live bait. Ron made his living
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: catching live bait. No, no, all kind of ways. He
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: supplied crayfish, he supplied wax worms, he supplied wigglers, He
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: trapped leeches, he trapped shiners, minnows. He was a bait fisherman.
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: He supplied live bait stars and this was his fa
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: Now my old man fished with them. You know. These
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: are guys that would fish two d two hundred fifty
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: days a year. And this was there my old man
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: and his friends, Alcohol Ron Spring. This was the fly
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: they use through the ice for yellow perch exactly. Oh
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: that's through the ice. That's not for open one. Not
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: just that. This is the fly they would also use
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: when the big white bellies were out in about a
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: hundred feet of water in Lake Michigan. That fly interesting,
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: Now that's calftail, and I couldn't tell by the picture.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: Now you know why you want to get you know
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: what you want, the the shank naked, so you can
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: put so you can string a bait up on her
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: perchise or whatever. Like a lot of times we tip
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: it with a perch eyeball. See that's bucktail. And I
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: was having a hard time keeping it short, Trim. Trim knows, Yeah,
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: you're not old to because people like the natural. And well,
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: there you go. I left the barbs on for you
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: after how many years? Now it's about too. I'm stunned,
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: and it's like, I don't know what to say. It's
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: not a complicated fly. He just never got around to it.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know what to say. I mean, I'm a
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: listener too. I think we're all following this saga. No,
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: he should see now my little workbench in the basement
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: looks like I'm practicing fly tire again. Man, you know
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: what's funny. I just gave my brother a giant bag
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: of perch plase too, So I need to restop what
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: other kind of conclude did that? How many more concluding
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: thoughts you got? I got no more unless I add
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: in on what you guys were I want to talk about.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: I was gonna read to you about the definition of
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: a sportsman. We can say that for another time. Please
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: is it long? Not too long? But this is this
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: is what Grinnell wrote. Well, and then it just came
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: to mind because I was reading this. Can we name
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: this paper? They ain't. Can anybody go read it? Technical
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: Review the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, Wildlife Society.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: Very informative. Everybody study recall someone they can read this.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: Something you read you gotta day. Yeah, it's good, it's good.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: I'll call you back tomorrow. I'm gonna have some hunters
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: come to your door. Oh you're looking for something right now? No, no, no,
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: I was just saying that, Well, what there's like six
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: points that define a sportsman and the final one was
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: will not waste any game that is killed? Um the
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: old Yeah, this is written in the that's that's Grenelle. Yeah, George, right, George,
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: George Bird. Um. So yeah, don't be a bullshitars. You
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: can talk about food. Yeah, I live it up, man,
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: do it. People can smell bullshit. Um, My kids discover
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: the word bullshit like they love it, but they like
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: it's much for their age. All right, now, Greg, Yeah,
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: I don't have a concluding thought, but I do want
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: to ask so you you've started a group Keep It Public.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: So Keep it Public is basically dedicated to showcasing the
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: diversity of individuals who support federal public lands, right, because
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: I think it's all too easy if you look at
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: rhetoric on either side that it's like, oh that's a
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: liberal issue, or or oh that's a hunting issue, or
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: oh that's only for backpackers, and it's like okay. On
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: the one hand, we need to show that support for
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: federal public lands is cross recreational right, everyone who recreates
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: on it needs public land to kind of apply their pursuit, right.
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: And then you've also got these political divisions I think
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, and I think you were
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: talking about on a previous um previous podcast, that it's
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: in the GOP platform right now that we should divest
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: public federal lands. But of course there are plenty of Republicans.
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: There are tons of Republicans who support federal public lands,
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: including legislatures, legislators, and I think it's important to really
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: showcase the bipartisan nature of the overwhelming support that the
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: American public has for federal public lands. And I'm just
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: because I study politics, I think i'm really wary of
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: this issue getting pegged into a left right spectrum. That's
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: just like but I think I know, and I remember
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: one day when that was in there, and that made
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: it into the that made it as a plank in
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: the platform, and um, it was disheartening. Yeah, it was disheartened, absolutely,
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: And uh and again as much as I try to
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: not look at you know, I don't look at things
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: in a real part isn't way. Um, it was disappoint
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: to me that that made it in there, um, in
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: the agenda of a party who I who I support
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: a great deal of their work, But I just I
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: have a real problem. I have a real problem with
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: the fact that that's uh, part of the I do too,
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: And I really don't like at all that it's been
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: attached like it's because it's now just entered the partisan realm, right,
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: and it's not like, well, you know, are you a
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: bad Republican if you sport federal land system And that
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: absolutely shouldn't be the case. I mean I have hunted
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: with a hell of a lot of Republicans on public lands. Yeah,
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: but they I mean there are Republicans of course who
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: who really care about this issue and are every bit
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: is passionate about. I mean, you don't have to be
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: a Democrat to whoheartedly love federal public lands. And I
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: think that's what we're trying to show. Yeah, those if
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: you can battle to keep that from becoming like a
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: knee jerk partners an issue. So our little niche is like,
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: we've got all these great organizations that are marketing to
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: a base. You've got Hook and Bullet marketing, hunters and anglers,
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: you've got the ri I backpacking scene as I like
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: to call them, market to your liberal hikers. Right, but
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: those guys have been ship But we'll get into that.
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: But what he did public is trying to do is
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: we're not marketing. Job is to battle that sentiment, right
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: to a degree, yes, And what we're really trying to
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: do is so that Hey, the only official stance we
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: have is that we support public lands under federal management,
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: and we oppose any land transferred to You support federal
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: things that are currently support the existing model, not the
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: things would be transferred or somehow somehow seized and de privatized.
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: You're saying the federal public lands that we have right
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: now should stay that way, absolutely, And I think a
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: land transferred to the States. We'll just absolutely need to
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: a net major loss of public land access, whether it's
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: sold outright or whether it's managed in a different way.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: And we're trying to show that this isn't just you know,
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 1: liberal Bay Area hiking and biking. I want my public lands.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: This is everybody. And it's not just recreation either. I mean,
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: we're planning on doing a piece with ranchers. There are
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: plenty of ranchers who support federal land. I mean, right
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: now in Montana, it's nine or ten times cheaper to
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: graze your cattle on federal public land than it is
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: the next private land. And a lot of them have
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: no illusions about what will happen if federal land is
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: transferred to the states. We've also got industrial perspectives. I
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: have a friend who's a lawyer for an oil and
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: gas company, and you know, the way the way they
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: talk about, uh, federal lands is you know, you might
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: think from an industrial perspective, they just they just hate
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: it and they can't wait for it to be privatized.
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: But you know a lot of them are fairly happy
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: with just how dirt cheap federal leases are. You know,
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: it's a mixed model right, We're not just a you know,
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: we're a bipartisan coalition building group. And it's not just
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: bipartisan coalition within recreation. We're also trying to involve ranchers
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: and uh an industry. And part of that is, I
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: got it's so fed up with like people looking at
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: the Bundy's right and they'll be like cowboy hat wrangler jeans, Like, yeah,
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: they might be a little bit extreme, but they must
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: be the extreme side of the position that I feel, right,
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: because like, look at me, I'm a rural Western Americans.
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: So they're like, must be they're a little bit beyond
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: the pale, but they must be on the right side
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: of this coin. And no, I don't think that's the case.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: I don't think we should let these people kind of
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: capture the imagery of the rural American West, because there
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: are plenty of rural Westerners who support federal public lands. Yeah,
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: but those guys staying for a lot more now, I mean,
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: like I stand for um, paying what yo mm hmm,
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: and not exploiting contracts and owning up to your responsibilities,
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: and they definitely don't. Yeah, expand on that, well, I
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: mean you've if you go out and run cattle on
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: the American by the American people, and rack up a
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: debt close to a million dollars and don't pay for
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: what you did. That's just like being that's just called
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: an asshole. Theft. Yeah, it's ridiculous. Yeah, But I mean
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: at the same that's that becomes like heroic to sort
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: of Also, it's like just like great American heroism to
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: default on contracts. I think people are just like they're
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: rejecting a tyrannical government. But I honestly think at people, yeah,
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: in a way that benefit's you financially. Know, if you're
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: rejecting a tyrannical government in a way that hinders you financially,
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: that's a lot different than the way that being like
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: I don't want to pay this money. How can I
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: make it look like I'm on the right side of this? Yeah.
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: I just think like personally, in this era of you know,
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: judging issues and articles by basically headlines, I think it's
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: real easy for people to uh see some que about
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: like I'm rural. They're wearing some clothing or they're talking
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: in a way that makes me think they're ural there
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: for I must be with them. I think there's a
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: lot of people who aren't just engaging with the policy
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: or the issues, taking the easy way out, or maybe
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: just aren't you know, it could might not be malicious,
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: like frankly, I'm a nerd about this stuff, right, and
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: like they might just not be as interested in federal
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: land policy. I can't really blame them, but it's very
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: easy to look at some simple, you know, interpersonal queue
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: and be like there with my group, you know, their
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: conservative Westerns, there with me, and it's like, no, plenty
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: of Conservatives, plenty of Republican support federal public lands. And
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: so we're going to basically market bipartisanship and market kind
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: of cross perspective support for federal public lands. Um, because
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: we don't have a membership base that we're trying to
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: retain or drive. Uh, we're basically just trying to remain viable.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: So we sell hats, shirts, stickers, vinyl decals to just
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: say keep it public and keep it public dot com
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: and six percent of all these of all of our
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: profits are split between three partners. So we've dosen to
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, Backcountry Hunters and Anglers in the
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: Outdoor Alliance. The first two are of course, you know,
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: I think the listeners will be familiar with those is
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: kind of hooking bullet advocacy organizations. And then Outdoor Alliance
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: is an umbrella group that has many I guess we
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: could call them like non consumptive recreational inter under it.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: So you've got mountain biking and climbing and hiking and um,
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure if bird watching is under there, but
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: you've got kind of, you know, the non consumptive recreational
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: interests and and so even when we're choosing our partners,
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: we're trying to make sure that everyone is represented, right,
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: We're trying to have a broad tapestry, so six percent
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: of every purchase is going to go towards that. And
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: we're not really looking at the company as a as
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: really like an income generator, right, We just want to
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: We're not under any illusion to just selling hats and
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: shirts is gonna get us rich at all, but we
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: hope we remain viable enough to keep doing things like Um,
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: I'm working with the animator from my experiment to make
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: a linear kind of historical overview of how federal lands
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: came to be, because I think if you just look
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: at how federal lands evolved, I mean from the thirteen
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: columnies through uh, you know, purchasing Alaska and then how
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: we've switched from a model of aggressive disposal to retention.
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: If that's just laid out in a straightforward chronological history
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: and of course of a couple of minutes, it's really
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: hard to come to the uh, come to the position
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: that's somehow federal lands are legitimate. Oh that's the thing
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: people try though. It's like the guy, it's like the
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: guy you're beating down there, like in a bar, who's like,
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: you know, if you read the Constitution, don't actually have
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: to pay tax I gotta talk about you always find
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: guys like that, or guys who somehow like done this
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: careful close reading of the Constitution. Guys the federal gro
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: only own Washington, d C. Yeah, talk about that, right, Okay, thought,
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: get into the constitution. Go ahead, get to the Constitution
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: for a minute. Yeah. So so this is my pet
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: peeve is uh land seizear Folks like the Bundy is
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 1: mentioning the Constitution. Usually there is like legitimate gray area
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 1: and debate about interpreting the Constitution. Federal lands is not
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: one of those things, right, The Property Clause is unequivocal
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: that like federal lands are constitutional. For over a hundred
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: and seventy five years, the Supreme Court has never wavered
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: in citing the property Clause as making federal lands legitimate.
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: I mean that's a ton of different makeups of the
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court. It's never wavered. They've never interpreted interpreted the
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 1: property clauses meaning anything other than something that supports federal land.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: So just straight out federal land is legitimate constitutionally. Now
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: they're not as revalent, but it kind of relevant, but uh,
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: it kind of begs a response. These guys are always
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: like the Bundies are talking about the enclave clause and
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: the Tenth Amendment a lot. The enclave clause. It just
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: it doesn't really make much sense to to talk about
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: they're talking about these federal enclaves that are like military
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: installations and things like that. Um, constitutional scholars kind of
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: baffled about why they bring this up because it does
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: nothing but really offer kind of like tangential support for
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: federal lands. It's just not really that relevant. Actually, what
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: what I think is happening, and this is really amusing,
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: is that it Snopes did a piece on this. I
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: think they actually believe there are a few sentences in
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: the enclave clause. It's straight up don't exist, like there's
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: in People like it's written in a way that looks constitutional,
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: say like no state should you know without its const
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: bogus stuff. It's just in ration that isn't in the Constitution,
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: And they cite the enclave clause, and people like, why
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: the hell it's citing the enclave clause, Like that doesn't
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: make make sense. And as far as I can deduce,
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: they're they're like literally citing information that's not in the Constitution.
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: We have a link up on snouts on the website. Well,
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: people bringing it up to almost more like like with
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: with those boys, as were like, so if they didn't
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: own it, what makes you think you don't it? Yeah,
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: well this ten's like because if you're like, you're running
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: cattle and you're you're you're a man. You guys are
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 1: running cattle on BLM land. But like if it wasn't
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: BLM land, it wouldn't just be like sitting there, come one,
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: come all, it's some guy, I'd own it. Yeah, and
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: you still wouldn't be running came. I guess everyone likes
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: a dream of themselves being that private land up. Yeah,
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: but to be like for me to be like, man,
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: I wish my neighbors didn't exist, then I'd own their house.
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 1: Be like, no, it's probably just some other thing would
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: own their house. Perspective that. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: the Tenth Amendment, which basically anybody using that to talk
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: about federal lands just ignoring the property class. I mean,
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: it's not like there's healthy debate amongst the Supreme Court.
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: It's like federal land is extremely constitutional. This ten mile
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: thing that I've heard sometimes it's ludicrous. I mean, it's
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: in the enclave clause. I believe that's like that they
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: only on Washington enclip clause. I believe it's in the
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: enclay clause. And it's talking about the seat of government.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: It's just talking about how big DC should be. It's
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: I don't think that. I don't think that the I
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: think that that's like such a fringe like that approach
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 1: is a fringe approach. I think a lot of people
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: look and they're like, sure, the federal government, like you know,
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: legally owns its federal lands. But I just feel like
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 1: it's too much. It's not administered in a way that's
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: friendly to industry, and however it came to be is
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: fine with me. I just think we should change what
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, that's probably the dominant view. I totally agree.
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying that the mind is these people holding
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: read the thing. Yeah, it's horrible. It's horrible. It's like,
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: it's just it's one of many things where it's annoying
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: whatever side of it you're on, it's just annoying because
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: if you just get where you just like, dislike misinformation
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: because not perfectly comfortable. I'll debate. I'd love the debate
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: him on it, but I'm perfectly comfortable with a guy
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: who's like, no, I get it, it's all fair and square.
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: I just think we should do it differently. And we're
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: a country that changes all the time. We're always changing
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 1: our rules, reassessing our priorities, and right now my priority
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: is freeing up more of this land for extractive industries.
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, you're entitled of that opinion. Now hear
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: me out. I'd love to have the conversation. But when
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: a guy comes and says like, oh yeah, that they
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: can't owner all anyway, I'm always like, like I don't
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: even know where to begin, dude. I mean, it's like
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: we're not even on the same planet. I agree. I
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: mean the former that you're talking about. These these people
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: who are engaging with it but just have a different
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: belief It's not like keeping public is just straight up rhetoric,
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: like this is what we believe, and like you're either
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: with us or against us. We have a detailed policy
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: statement up there right now, uh, and we talk about,
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: you know, the three arguments we have is, you know,
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: federal land is historically consistent, it's constitutionally protected, and it's
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: fiscally advantageous. I think if you take a long term
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 1: view of economics and industry, you will see that this
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: mixed model that we have is is the most viable
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: way forward economically. Like I always buck at the idea
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: that it's like, but I totally agree with you, and
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: you've said this on previous podcasts. I don't think that
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: everything should have to justify itself in economic terms, and
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: I think this land falls into that. It just so
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: happens it does that too. And I buck against some
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: people who are like, well, it's just industry versus this
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: mixed model, you know, but a lot of states are
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: not a lot. There's some states. It's a very conservative
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: states will point out coming around saying they having looked
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: at it, they're feeling that it's not advantageous for them
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 1: to assume some of the financial responsibility of management of lands. Yeah,
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 1: I believe that was a fiscal analysis that was mandated
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: by some legislation that the that the big time land
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: transfer had because it's advocates are pushing for and they're like, oh,
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: I don't want that. States like yeah, because you could
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 1: have had a ton of expense, you could have a
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: cataclysmic wildfire bankrupt your state. And states don't have a
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: lot of the fiscal elasticity of the federal government where
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: they have to live within budgetary constraints, and they're like,
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: we don't have like our citizenry doesn't want to take
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: on the responsibility of property. Administering this land and administering
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: it in these days comes down to fighting fires, like
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: most of the Forest Service budget fights fires. Yeah, it's expensive,
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: and I think some people now are looking at being like,
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: as much as it's supposed to be a great selling
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: point industry, that's happening on these public lands as it
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: is is generating jobs and they're getting dirt cheap leases
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: in our state. And it's like it's like we have
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: a lot to gain and in uh, not a terrible
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: lot to lose, and it's a good system for us. Yeah,
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: And I mean, even if there isn't a wildfire, you know,
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 1: it's expensive to manage this land. Plus the federal government
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: gives each states whatever it's payments in lieu of taxes
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: are pilt, so if you transfer lands, it's it's taxes
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: that they would have made on revenue generated from the
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: current industry on those lands. And yeah, I think the
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: states are looking at it and like, wait, we now
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: have to pay to manage the land we're not currently
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: paying for. Plus we're giving up the payments that we're
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 1: getting from the federal government. And I think there's an
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: argument to be made that because some people would be like, well,
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: I support public land, but you know, this is all
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: just like fear mongering. It'll still stay public when it's
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: in you know, when it's in state control. And I
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 1: don't believe that's the case at all for them, that
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 1: hasn't been borne out by history, right, and for them
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: to keep let's say theoretically that this happens. For a
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 1: state to keep the current level of public access, it
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: would incur enormous expenses, and the only viable way to
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: do it would be to jack up taxes on everybody.
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 1: That's not gonna happen. Like, no politicians gonna be like
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: I just like really jacked up for taxes because I
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 1: want to keep all this public access, like like you know,
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: is now paying much higher time. Like, it's not gonna happen. No,
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: And I mean just if you just kind of generally
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: pay attention state control of lands that they're not as
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 1: they're not as uh, state lands just not as open
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: generally as federal lands to camping, hunting, a TV use.
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of restrictions out and they carry a
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: lot of financial fiscal restrictions where they can't run deficits
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 1: and oftentimes have to sell land. Look at I mean,
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 1: Texas got liquidated virtually all their school trust lands over
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: the years, yea, And I mean that's that's the land
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: that actually stays in state control, I mean most of it.
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: So it's I think a lot of people think that
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: like the federal government is like increasing its land ownership,
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: and that's not the case. It's it's been I mean,
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 1: it's diminished by a few percents since right, like the
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: tap is going in the direction of from the Feds
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: to the states. Um and some of that's like land.
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: You know, there's land swaps that happen and stuff. I'm
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 1: not saying it's all like that that it's emblematic of
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 1: a like of a larger land transfer. But what what
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 1: what I'm what I'm encouraged by. But a lot of
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 1: that land just gets privatized outright, you know, Like the
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: state lands that are open have restrictions, but a lot
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: of the federal land that's transferred to the states just
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: gets sold out right. Yeah. And again, if people who
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: want to talk about how state land doesn't go private,
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 1: go look up Elliott State Park in Oregon selling a
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: state park. Look at how much land has been sold
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 1: from Idaho, Wyoming, Nevada. I mean, it's alarmed. It's staggering figures. Yeah. Now,
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: one thing that gives me a little bit of hope.
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 1: And I don't know because I think he's gonna be
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: We brought this up a couple of times. Now he's
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 1: gonna be under a lot of pressure from his adopted party.
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: But uh. I heard Trump speak in January of last year,
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: and Trump said he has no interest in dump in
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 1: federal public lands. Yeah, I want to talk about that.
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: I you know, we we've talked about it for I
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 1: understand he's gonna be under a ton of pressure. I
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 1: know that he also in a lot of ways doesn't
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: have a lot of use for party orthodoxy. Um. He's
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 1: been willing to butt heads with um, some of his
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: fellow party members on a number of issues. I hope
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 1: he can butt heads of them on this. Yeah. I
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 1: mean it certainly our responsibility to make sure that he does. Um. Yeah.
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: On another he didn't mince words, No, he didn't, but
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 1: he's made more. The Trump campaign has made three statements
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 1: about public lands in terms of if you separate their arguments.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: One has unequivocally been no interest in selling your your
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: federal public lands, and we think it should remain understand
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: that's the one I heard first. Two was the person
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: that came out, I'm like, great, both candidates support federal
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: land management. Like the debate over my pet issue is like,
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: you know, at least I can focus on other things
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: because that's not going to change. Then there was a
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 1: messaging from his campaign said well, if it's under state management,
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 1: we still support public lands. It's like, well it's understate management,
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 1: you have nothing to do with land anymore. They give
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 1: me a break. And then the third one was he
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: did have a meeting with DeMar Doll, who's a big
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 1: in Nevada, who's a big land transfer advocate, and spoke
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: to a group there, and uh Doll was kind of
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 1: effusive in his praise of of that meeting. So I'm
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: not using that as ah like, I'm just because we're
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: talking politics. I'm not using that in any way to
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: say that's his true opinion and that these other things
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: are just a charade. But it's just that he's he's
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 1: an opportunist, right, and I think it behooves us to
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: make sure that he hears the arguments in support of
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: federal public land and that we hold him to the
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: statements that he's made on our behalf right, Okay, but
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: they have been. It's tough for me because some of
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: the statements have been in direct opposition, right. Yeah, I'm
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: not naive enough to think. I'm not naive enough to
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 1: think to what anybody says. Yeah, during trying to win
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 1: a one trying to at that point trying to win
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: a not a party nomination. I'm not naive enough to
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: think that that there's really that much blitting with anyone says,
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: but um, it gives me something to hang on to.
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: It gives me something to refer back to. Yeah, I mean,
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 1: I I pray that because that it happened he supported
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 1: federal lands so early in the process that I'm hoping
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 1: the latter were just artifacts of going through the campaign
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: is and I know that he has the ear of
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 1: his son who's in Yeah, that's right. So yeah, I
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 1: mean that's this is a big thing that we're focused
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 1: on and keep it public because it's like we're not
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: going to um, you know, tout one party over the
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 1: other at all. It's like, listen, we the only official
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 1: statement that we're gonna make is that we support public
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 1: lands under federal management. You can't tell you can't tell
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 1: one party because the parties are good part The parties
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: don't do anything for us, right right, Yeah, Yeah, you
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: have one party the grave for cleaning air and clean water,
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 1: probably generally hostile the hunting fishing type. Dudes. Yeah, you
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 1: got one party open, We'll welcome me with open arms.
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: The hunting, fishing type stuff. You gotta keep an eye
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 1: on them when it comes to cleaning air and clean water. Yep.
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: It's like, we need our own party, you know. It's
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 1: a hunting party, reappropriate bulls. We'll get five percent of
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 1: the vote every year. Um. But to go back when
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 1: I said, like earlier, I talked about how political science
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 1: couldn't show that we were polarized the society. What they
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 1: did show was that the elected officials are polarized in
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 1: terms of their voting and their rhetoric. Yeah. And I
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 1: think it's interesting because the party it uh, you know,
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: promotes extremists. And I think it's our responsibility, is the population,
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 1: to moderate the politicians we elected in office. Right. That's
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: a frustrating about the party system. And it's like a
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 1: thing you watch again and again, whether it be politicians
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: you really admire, um, and then they go to try
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 1: to secure a party nomination and you have to watch
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: the very painful process of them morphing into of their beliefs,
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 1: morphing into this like thing. We're like, oh, wow, all
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, you mirror you magically, now mirror man.
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 1: Some of it's just oh, it's so sad. Man, let's
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 1: just end on that. It's so sad. I need to
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: go back to never talk all this kind of stuff. Man,
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 1: it's important, and I think there's a way to do
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 1: it where we don't have to be inflammatory. Right, Like,
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 1: we're all fully functional adults. We all have our own
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 1: political leanings and our own thoughts on on on issues.
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: There's no reason why we can't uh find out where
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 1: our avenues of agreement are and say, okay, we can
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 1: set aside our differences on completely irrelevant topics and at
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 1: least have unified front you know, on federal lands or
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 1: whatever other issue you might be looking at where we
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: share consensus. Right, Yeah, yeah, I say yeah. But then
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: I also realized that I'm in many ways trying to
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: put a positive I'm in many ways like I'm I
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: don't want to say I'm a single issue guy, but
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 1: I'm focused. Uh, I'm focused very heavily on wildlife issues
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 1: and issues that affect hunters and fishermen. And it's it's
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 1: like a self fulfilling thing because those are the issues
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 1: I'm I know most about and can speak to most competently,
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: you know, And um, yeah, and I tend to view
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 1: the world somewhat myopically or I stay on that stuff.
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 1: And so I always talk about how like all this
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 1: coming together kumbaya stuff, But by that I always mean
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 1: I hope you come together to think what I think. Yeah,
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 1: I mean I want, And it's like, I hope you
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 1: come together with me on what I want. I mean.
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 1: On the one hand, I look at it and as like, man,
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 1: are we just like chasing like a utopia that doesn't
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: exist with this keeping public stuff? But on another it's
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: like if we're just up front, it's like, listen, the
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: way that we're gonna do this is we're not going
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: to advocate for anything except this one stance. You know.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: It's like we don't even have to debate any of
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 1: the other stime. You know why we're gonna win because
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: our guy is carved under the damn mountain. Yeah, I
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 1: like that. Roosevelts on the mountain like that. Every politician
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 1: wants to liken themselves to Roosevelt. That's what Roosevelt is
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: popular in history. Gives the public land system. So it's
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: like we're already winning. You put up a guy that's
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: gonna piss on this whole system and flush it down
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: the drain and make it the future Americans don't have
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: access to public lands and national parks and refuges and
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 1: national forest and then get your ass carved on the mountain.
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 1: Ain't gonna happen. To think, ain't gonna happen. That's why
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: I think we're gonna win. And I think the mountain speaks.
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of people who are fired
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 1: up about this, right, and I think sportsmen groups have
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 1: been doing the heavy lifting for a long time, um,
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: and I think it's time that the entire recreational spectrum
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 1: gets its act together and targeting this federal land uh
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 1: kind of avenue. Right. Like, I've noticed that a lot
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: of non hunting outdoors groups their messaging seems to just
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: revolve around the national parks. I'm like, the national parks
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: percent of the public land, and they're like, come on,
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 1: like they're not in danger. Oh yeah, it's all it's
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 1: all part of the broader I don't want to get
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: into it, okay, suid, Yeah, we are going squid jig
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: tonight to concluding thoughts, two more, I'll do one. I'll
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 1: do one, and that is because I'm one, alright, It's
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: because Steve brought up this story we're talking about before
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 1: the podcast and my in laws, and I feel like
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: I just can't let that lie. There's a very funny
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: your wife would listen to this? Oh yeah, why not?
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: It's a funny story. I don't I don't mind telling it, Jerry.
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 1: I'll get a kick out of it, as my father
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: in law, Jerry. So when I early on in my
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 1: wife and I relationship, I was we went to school
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 1: in Colorado and we were down visiting my now in
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 1: laws in southern Colorado and we were my now brother
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 1: in law, my father in law, and UH and I
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: were muzzle looader mule your hunting. And we went out
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: in this truck, an old f two fifty with two
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 1: gas tanks that we called Old Whitey, and it was
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: bench seat. I was in the middle between my father
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 1: in law and my brother in law, and we drove
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 1: out to the National Forest we're hunting. And we got
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 1: out there in Old Whitey and we're like crawling along
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 1: pretty slow, and I fig like, all right, we're gonna
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 1: get to the hunting spot. But he's just gonna like
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: drive along pretty slowly. Maybe we don't want to spook anything.
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 1: And I was a very new hunter at this time too,
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 1: so I was like unsure of the procedure. Anyways, We're
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: just crawling along and crawling along and just waiting to
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 1: get to the spot. And that you know, I'm think
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: you got this taken forever, like this take and a
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 1: half day. It's taking prime hunting hours. And I turned
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 1: to the left at some point because I've been talking
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: to my brother in law and we noticed that as
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: we're idling up this hill. I was actually about to
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 1: say what it was, but I don't want to do
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 1: that to their hunting spot. As we're idling up this hill,
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 1: we notice that Jerry is just flat out snoring behind
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 1: the wheel and it looks like I'm asleep for some time, man,
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 1: And we just, uh, we're just about died and laughing. Man,
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 1: we were how like, I mean, he was going like
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 1: a half a mile an hour and uh yeah. So
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: now I'm convinced when Jerry goes out there and hunts,
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 1: like half the time, he's just taking a nap. You know.
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 1: My dad's hunting stories, Um, as he's older, we're always
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 1: like and there was like and there it was under
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: my tree. Yeah. Yeah, because the reason your stories all
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: start the way is because you periodically wake up and
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 1: look around and which just all of a sudden see
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 1: deer there, but they never like approached because you slept
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 1: through the apro I mean, they're very good at napping.
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 1: I feel like I have to up my napping game.
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: Jeff Fox really has that great skit where he's in
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: the tree and Buddy supposedly walks up learning there. He goes, hey, Jeff,
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 1: what are you doing? You can sleep it up there,
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 1: and Jeff like, no, no, I was praying, Oh that okay,
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: what was your last one? That was your second last one?
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 1: All right, if you want me to do it, I
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 1: don't want to ramble and take your listeners too much
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 1: time from your list quick. Yeah. So what I've noticed,
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 1: you know, because I didn't grow up in a hunting family, Um,
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 1: what I've noticed as I've started hunting, that's kind of
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: irrelevant all the politics and stuff we've been talking about,
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: is that I've gained much more appreciation for landscapes that
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 1: I previously had. Like, you know, I think before it
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 1: was very much in the line of like, yeah, I
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: like the alpine landscape right like go backpack in this year,
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 1: or the Trinity Alps, and I love going through Stage
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 1: Brush and like Antelope Country, Like I just love it now,
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 1: And I think I don't think I appreciated it as
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 1: much before I started interacting with the landscape. I'm like, oh, well,
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 1: this is how it functions, Like this is the utility
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: of this landscape, Like this is what lives here, and
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 1: this is how it lives and and it's really just
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 1: increased my appreciation for the land in a dramatic way. Yeah,
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: I hear you loud clear on that. Man. You learn
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: to look at the land. Yeah, you read it. You
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 1: learn how to look at it, like I love driving
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: through Nevada. Barry Loe. Yeah, Barry Lopez, who, if anything,
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 1: is uneasy with hunting, but he writes about he spends
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 1: a lot of time with indigenous hunters and um, he
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 1: has a beautiful piece he wrote where he they he's
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: traveling with some asketball hunters and they come across a bear,
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 1: a grizzly out on the tundra, and he gets into
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 1: what he sees when he sees a grizzly, which is
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 1: he sees the moment there's a bear right there. He says.
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: His companions see the grizzly, and they see a long
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 1: narrative that took place before their arrival, and they see
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 1: a long narrative that will play out after their departure.
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 1: It's like they see a timeline that they entered into.
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 1: And I think that that's one of the things that
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 1: that hunting teaches you, is that when you're looking at something,
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 1: you're catching it in a moment, Even things like successional forests.
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 1: When I look at a forest fire and they're and
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 1: people like, oh, the anchors were destroyed. I look at
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 1: a forest fire and I'm like, I'm already pictured sea
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 1: bitch in ten years deer and elk, you know what
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, Like like you learn to like see this
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 1: thing that you know goes on and goes before ye
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 1: and seeing elk out on your winter range, it's like
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: somebody like there's nope, but you see this thing playing out,
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 1: Like how that thing uses the landscape now where it
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 1: probably came from, where it's going to go next. There
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 1: are many ways to get there. Hunting you just the
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 1: way that forces you to get there. There are many
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: ways to learn to see the natural world that way,
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 1: and we by no means have a monopoly on it
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 1: um But hunting is the way that gets you there
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: very quickly because because it makes it relevant, it makes
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 1: it relevant to you. And um, earlier I said, we're
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 1: pragmatic beings, were all full a little selfish. We like
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 1: things to be relevant to us. That's true. Yeah, any
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: concluding thoughts already gave him mine now that, but now
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 1: that Yannie gave my perch flies. Um um. A lot
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: of people write and frustrated they can't buy a meat
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 1: Eat or T shirt. But you can go on to
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 1: Hunt Eat. We have some. You guys are gonna have some.
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 1: Are we gonna get more? So Yannie T Shirt company
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 1: who we boycotted over the perch fly issue, um sold you.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 1: Hunt Eat sold us meat Eat your t shirts. Yeah,
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 1: we made some people bought them all how long ago?
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 1: How long ago is the last one sold? Year? Really? Wow?
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 1: And you still got out some we've reprinted. It's just
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 1: like the people that right in because the Meat Eater
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 1: store is a mass. It's like, dude, you're right, I
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: just trying to defend it, but it's just like a mass. Yeah.
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: But right now I know that we have some actually
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 1: add the printer cks. I know we're gonna have shirts
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 1: for Wednesday, like you guys are making more. Remember we
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 1: looked at the proofs. No, but no, I'm saying Hunt
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: EAT's gonna make more than that order has not in place.
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 1: There's gonna be more more meat Eater T shirts at
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 1: theat you're still Hunt Eats, still selling the meat Eater
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 1: Hunt Eats. Yeah right, all right? That was was that long?
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: Was long? That was? It was good though it low attention.
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 1: Thanks for the low attention to sons of bitches. I
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 1: hope you've got through that.