Latest / Bozeman Builders Science / Ep. 7: Jourdan Dunn - The Future of Radon Mitigation: Smarter Fans, Better Systems & Innovation
Transcript
- Jourdan Dunn: we have radon radon technology in Dayton, Ohio. We've been in business since nineteen ninety-three. my dad is the one that started it in ninety-three, but he will tell you. he did his first radon mitigation job in eighty seven. so He started it in ninety three. I did radon mitigation installs in probably two thousand six, two thousand seven when I was in high school was my first hands on experience in the industry. typic you know, this is pretty typical, but I didn't wanna get into the business because it was my dad's business. I thought I'll do something else. So so I didn't really start working full time and the business until after I graduated college. And yeah, then me, my brother and sister ended up buying it off of him. it's been probably three or four years now that we have owned it and operated it. And that's kind of the genesis on how it started, but a lot of history. We have we have the oldest s mitigation company license in the state of Ohio. To give you an idea. Been around for a long time. So Ian White: Very cool. Jourdan Dunn: yeah. Ian White: It's it's funny, everybody I talked to in the radon industry, they just fell into it. Or it was yeah, dad started it and now I'm helping with it or it same thing happened for me. I just fell into it and then it's like, I actually care about this and I enjoy it. So it's funny how that tends to be the case in this industry. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, it's I mean, even when I, you know, first got into it, I you know, doing installs you can get kind of burnt out on the job, I feel like, but it's also kind of nice because i it's always something new, which can be for the good or the bad, I feel like. sometimes Ian White: Yeah. Jourdan Dunn: you run into stuff and it's like, my gosh. I mean, I feel like still learning stuff, still running into stuff that I've never seen before. so we're still yeah, I mean we're still learning and getting better every day. but yeah, I I didn't I didn't picture this being my career for sure. where did you start originally? What was kind of how did you fall into it? Ian White: That's funny. I started a handyman business. I was helping elderly neighbors at the time and a buddy of mine was like, Why don't why don't you just start charging for this? And I was like, They're on a fixed income. I'm not gonna charge them. And he's like, Other people are asking for your help. Why don't you just start doing that? So that's what I started doing. And then I was having a hard time marketing, which was that's always the challenging aspect, I think, for people who are physically good with tools in their hands, they tend to have fewer of those business skills. And so I met founder of BRM and helped build it to this point. So again, just kind of fell into it. He was asking for help and so I subbed with him for a while as a handyman and here we are. Jourdan Dunn: wow. Yeah, so also this this is interesting. So like I said, my my dad started, he did his first radon mitigation job in the late 80s. But really how he found out about it was he had an insulation business. And he was going to these conferences, they were talking about, you know, insulating homes, making them tight, and they said, you know, there is a downside to doing that. And they said you could increase the radon levels inside the home by making these homes so tight. So that's how he first heard about it. And he remembers that and he's and then he he just got some inquiries about it like from some homeowners, you know, when they kind of first found out radon could be a problem and residential homes and sold his insulation business and they didn't want anything to do with the radon part, so branched off and just started this little radon company. That has that's where we stand today. And then yeah, and then I've gotten s more and more involved, more you know, going to symposiums and stuff and I've just kind of learned that I think there's there's improvements that can be made in the industry and that's where my little separate volcano radon company has come in where we're we're making products f just for the radon industry. Ian White: Yeah, tell me about that. 'Cause what I guess what'd you go to school for? Jourdan Dunn: So I went to school for sports management to give you an idea. a minor in business, but to be honest, I love golf and I worked at a golf course from high school through college, became the assistant pro at the local golf course, was kind of on track to just becoming a GM head pro at a golf course. and my brother was working at the radon. company with my dad. He his wife got a new job out of state. They moved and so my dad needed help and that's when I was like, well I can start helping out. Was just doing it part time and then realized I think this is the way to go. so n you know, that's my my education is more of experience and hands on than it would be anything With sch school related for sure. Ian White: I think that's usually the case more often than not. I went to school for aviation and business management, so I I was definitely out of my element when I fell into this. But again, I think radon and just indoor air quality as a whole, people that fall into it, they that's exactly it, they fall into it. There's no plan to do it. They just see a need and then end up filling it. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, it's not it's not even considered one of the main trades or anything you know what I mean. Y you could be an H VAC Ian White: Yeah. Jourdan Dunn: technician, like, okay, I'm going into HVAC or I'm going into plumbing, going into electric. but you know, radon is just a little side product, I feel like, of that main trades industry. Ian White: Yeah. So you you start helping out and you realize there is a need in the industry for innovation. 'Cause we've seen that in the radon world. There's been little to no innovation since the eighties. Not little to no, but not nearly as much as you would expect with i if you were to compare that to the other trades like plumbing or HVAC, there's far less people in this space making changes. So I have my thoughts, but I want to hear from you how you saw a need for improvement and how you went about starting that. Jourdan Dunn: So it originally started with I went out to a customer's house because they had a whistling, they had a a noise coming from a floor drain. This was an older home and we did a mitigation job on it. It had a a drain tile system that fed to this floor drain that we were pulling air down through. We had one of the main drains used for the in industry was a little drain or drain and and I could hear the air being sucked down through it. So I was like, well let me pour some water in it. Maybe that'll fix it. It stopped for a little bit and then it and it just started it still was pulling air down through it. So I was I felt embarrassed in front of the homeowner. I was like this I this is what we're supposed to use. This is industry standard here. I I don't know what I don't know what else to do, how to have this drain work without it whistling for you. you know, I tried cleaning it off and everything. So then after that, I've I had a 3D printer and I thought maybe I can just print something that's better. for a while there we switched, you know, we started carrying different drains. We were trying different ones, but this was such a small floor drain that any of the the other style drains would not fit. So I 3D printed a bunch of prototypes, kept messing with it, and then that's how I eventually came out with the volcano drain. So having the ball that lifts is gonna prevent any whistling and it all kind of stemmed from that. So once I perfected it, got a bunch of feedback from other people in the industry and just from using them. I decided to invest in on a mold. So I have them injection molded and I figured worst case scenario we're gonna use them in our day to day radon mitigation. So eventually it'll pay for itself, hopefully. and then I've reached out to distributors and they they were willing to carry them and sell them as well. So that's how the volcano radon started was with that little drain. Ian White: cool and injection mold's not cheap what Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Not cheap. Ian White: prompted you to to go that far with it because if you're just gonna use it yourself I run into this too if we're just gonna use it ourself I'll just 3D print it but Jourdan Dunn: Right. Ian White: that's a huge step like that's big boy manufacturing at that point Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, so I'm lucky lucky enough to have my dad around and he was willing to give me the loan for that mold. and we went to several, probably five different injection mold companies around this area. And there's one in our backyard that is kind of some good old boys and they they loved the idea of it and they were really Willing to work with us on it. And the 3D printed materials, like I mean, was using, you know, PET G I think at the time. I just didn't love the rigidity of them. I wanted them to be a little more pliable. I was hoping, you know, because we were also doing four-inch test caps in our sump covers. And I was thinking, well, if I can just if I can use Something that's a little more pliable that you know we drill a four inch hole and we can stick this drain in there, but it'll also it'll be tight enough to create an airtight seal, but then it can be removed so you don't have to caulk it in. so that's why we talked to them about that. And I couldn't, I mean maybe you could do that with a TPU with 3D printing, but it gets really difficult. and then also just trying to print it the way I wanted involved. a lot of supports and it became you know, I was like it this would be much better if it could be injection molded. So it was a big it was a big step. but like I said, I luckily had my dad to help me fork up the money for that mold and I'm still paying him off for that loan. Ian White: Yeah, those aren't cheap. What time of year was or not time of year, but what time frame was this? Because 3D printing's come a long way in the last twenty years, but I would say in the last Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. So Ian White: five to ten it's really changed. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, so gosh, it was probably four years ago when I first started started that and I w originally was printing just on an Ender 3. I don't know if you're familiar with these printers, but that's like one of the most basic cheap printers. and it's a Ian White: Yep. Yeah, I think I started on an Ender Five, so definitely familiar with that lineup. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, no bed self leveling, it was a headache to work with. you know, now I'm using some bamboos that are just so user friendly and but it wasn't like that back then. So there was also that frustration at the time. I was like, I if I'm gonna be printing a bunch of these, I don't want it the headache of having to deal with, main maintaining these three D printers and like you said, they have come a long way. There's a lot less required for maintaining them now. So I have a couple questions for you two. Ian White: Okay. Jourdan Dunn: just and I guess some basic ones. You know, what what fans are you guys using? What fans do you carry? Ian White: So we use Festa exclusively. We've partnered with them. I just I love their warranty. I love the people. it's family owned and operated. They're made here in the US. And I just went over there and April or May, I wanna say, over there to Cranberry Township, Pennsylvania, outside of Pittsburgh Jourdan Dunn: Mm. Ian White: and it was it was a lot of fun. I got to chat with Daryl and his sons and meet the team and they're great. They they stand by what they're doing. So yes, to answer your question we use Festa. Jourdan Dunn: Nice. Yeah, we're in the same boat. are you guys on the EC fans? Or are you using both? Ian White: Yes, sir. Jourdan Dunn: Okay. So that's been a big change for us in the last year or two where we decided to go exclusively EC fans. one festa made it pretty easy by doing the seven year warranty on them. having that extra Ian White: Mm-hmm. Jourdan Dunn: warranty made it justifiable I feel like for us and separates us a little bit from our competition offer offering a seven year warranty. but we are pretty much only using the Phoenix ECS now. Ian White: Okay. Jourdan Dunn: So what we're doing in most situations we're gonna dial it back to be comparable to a maverick. So on a typical install, we might dial it to seven is our standard, and that gives us the performance of say a maverick, uses a lot less energy, but also then if we ever need to crank it up, we have that ability. So on a lot of these tighter soil homes where we were using an eagle or prowler, we're now just cranking our Phoenix up to ten. And it's been working really well for us. and part of that transition into these EC fans and having that speed control ability is what prompted this idea of having an automatic speed control adjustment based on radon levels inside your home. Ian White: Yes, I wanna get to that. For anybody who may not be aware of what the E C portion of a radon fan might mean. Can you speak to that a little bit? Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, so Daryl and Festa would be better at explaining this than me, but electronically commutated is what E C E C stands for, is my understanding. I know the big transition into these E C fans was because of the UL five seven, which was a a standard or code that that required fans to have an extra thermal protection. So if they're installed in unattended areas, say an attic, then they have to pass this UL507. And this was a huge thing within the fan manufacturers for the radon industry on how they were gonna pass this UL507. So some of the other fan manufacturers have done fuses. They had to add an extra fuse inside the motor. And then the the other option was the EC fans. The EC fans pass that without having to do anything else. So like I said, you know, I I'm just speaking based on what I have heard basically from Daryl Festa. but the my understanding is also the EC fans are a little more common in different parts of the world and and Europe. They've really adopted the EC fan technology. We're a little behind. the energy efficiency is pretty substantial. I mean these typical radon fans aren't using a ton of power. You know, they might be sixty watts, fifty watts. But you know, with an EC fan, like I said, with the comparing it to a Maverick, the Phoenix, we dial it back, we're cutting it in half. It's gonna be twenty, twenty five watts, maybe. and then if you dial it back even more, it's It's a lot less. So over time that does add up. but those are some of the benefits of these EC fans. And then, yeah, this this my understanding is also that the bearings are are gonna be better long term on these motors than than the typical AC fans, and that's the point of failure for radon fans, is is the bearings. So that's all the benefits that I'm aware of. Going to these EC fans. yeah. Ian White: Yeah, more often than not, it's the bearings that fail, and that's an unserviceable part due to the manufacturing process and whatever else. So yeah, chatting with Daryl, he mentioned that they'd gone to an unsealed bearing, which seems counterintuitive, but if you get moisture in a sealed bearing, you're toast. If it's unsealed, there's a pathway out and that moisture can get out of there. So yeah, that's Obviously another improvement there. But okay, so you're you're able to speed control the fans. What were you originally using or what are you still using for speed control? And why would you want to dial back a radon fan? Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, so right now, in our day to day, we're dialing back the fan. I would say the number one reason is gonna be noise. so with our Phoenix installs, if you have a Phoenix at ten, it's gonna be almost as noisy as an Eagle. it's pulling hard, it's moving as much air as it can. There's just some noise associated with that. So number one concern From a homeowner. Number one complaint from a homeowner is is noise. So you want to reduce the noise as much as possible. and then number two is just gonna be, you know, w how much power do you really need? Let's let's just think about it logically. Let's not use of a bigger fan than we need to use. Let's not just put the biggest fan on we can. If the levels don't come down, that's never our first thought is let's let's put a bigger fan on. It's let us let's see what our you know pressure field extension is let's let's see if we need to drop another suction point before we just slap a bigger fan on because more often than not that is not the problem the fan size so you're aware of this too but you know the typical radon system is not moving a ton of air so what is it like eighty C Fm is is basically the average for a radon mitigation system. Ian White: Yeah, eighty eighty to a hundred and twenty depending on the fan, even though they're capable of some of are capable of three hundred and fifty CFM, but you got bigger fish to fry if you need that much air movement. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, so understanding that it's not about moving a ton of air too. it's just about creating a little bit of negative pressure under the slab or crawl barrier, whatever you're working with. and then that gas is just naturally gonna be drawn to that that vacuum. So, you know, dialing them back. yeah, I mean I feel like just based, you know, from a mitigator standpoint it's never been, you know energy consumption. You you'll get a few homeowners that are concerned about that. And the ones that are, they they love the idea of the EC fans using less electricity. But from our perspective, number one is gonna be noise is is why you dial it back. Ian White: So we're typically fighting two different types of noise. We're fighting the fan noise itself, which is where the speed control makes a ton of sense. And then we're also fighting the air coming out of the top of the pipe. That actual exhaust point, when I'm designing systems, I frequently try and avoid exterior systems on decks or you know, I always mention to homeowners, if I were you, I'd spend all my time on that back deck all summer long. I would be out here as much as possible. I don't want to hear a radon fan just running away. Or even if the fan's in the attic and you don't hear it, that exhaust, if we're right next to the back deck, you're gonna hear that. So do you have a noise solution for the exhaust itself rather than the fan? Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, so every mitigation proposal we put out, we have add-on options. This is where you can buy a consumer grade radon monitor, which is I feel like a no brainer for homeowners. we have mufflers that we make that this is you know, volcano radon. We're also making mufflers that we sell through Festa and PDS and other distributors, reliable radon products. So these mufflers, they're gonna take care of that vent noise. And when I've talked to homeowners, that's always what I try to explain to them is the loudest part of the system is the air discharge out of the top of that vent. So, you know, I don't think you should be thinking about noise inside this bedroom on the other side of the brick wall here, but you know, we do have some noise associated with the fan. If you dial that fan speed back a little bit, it's you basically can't hear it. You have to feel the fan to to tell that it's running. so yeah, it depending on where that vent location is, you're gonna have noise. We've had we had one situation where we came through a roof that over was over a garage, so it's interior system. They had a second floor area that had two walls, so it was almost like You had a corner back there where the noise of that air discharge was bouncing off of the two-story section. So from the driveway, if you stood down there, it was super loud. so we put a muffler right up in the attic right before it penetrated through the roof. So you couldn't see any of the change. and the homeowner was thrilled at the noise reduction. Just just getting rid of some of that. basically the frequency is really what it is. If you take a decibel meter to it, it's not gonna show you much, but a lower frequency is just so much more pleasing to the ears. So if you can lower that frequency, it makes a dramatic difference. So having the mufflers as an option again, I think is a no-brainer. most homeowners, if you tell them, hey. For a hundred bucks, this is gonna reduce the noise of the system. They'll just go ahead and do it before they even hear the system, the air after the install. So I think give them the options. Give the homeowners the options. and yeah, so noise complaints, you're right, you got fan noise, and then you have the air vent noise. Yeah. And then I yeah. Ian White: Yeah, we've been dealing with that a lot lately. that air discharge noise is always a headache. What do you do in situations where you don't have room in the attic for a muffler? 'Cause it's not uncommon for us to pop into the attic and we could go straight up and have eight foot of space, but the homeowner wants the exhaust to come out over here. Well now we've got a foot of space above the fan. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, if we don't have enough room in the attic, we'll just put it above the roof. it's just gonna look a little Ian White: You put it outside. Jourdan Dunn: f yeah, it's gonna look a little funky because it's gonna be a little bit bigger size pipe. so all the mufflers that we use, like on a three inch system, the muffler is actually a four inch pipe. On a four inch system, the mufflers that we make are really five inch. So it just the the whole point is We don't want reduce any of the airflow. We just want to reduce the noise. So you have to make it a little bit bigger so that you're not restricting the airflow. So it might look a little funky, but yeah, we would just have it above the roof. Another thing Ian White: Okay. Jourdan Dunn: that we've tested and is location. And by far, and I've talked to other people too in the industry, Bill Broadhead, but the best location for the muffler is. as close to the top of that vent as possible. If I've I've t I've done s I've done some tests where I put that muffler, just above the fan, I put it midway. if you have more vent pipe above that muffler, by the time that air is going up through all that piping and through the and out the discharge point, it's it's loud again. So it's almost like the noise I basically that's what my experience has been in my testing is put it at the top of the vent as the best location. I don't know if you've seen that as well or if you've done any testing on Ian White: I've I've definitely done some testing on it. I've had really good success directly above the fan, but it's always quieter when it's closest to the discharge point. And which makes perfect sense. you were talking Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. Ian White: to frequency, I like that because I go to silencers on a rifle. A lot of times you're not reducing the sound, you're changing the frequency. So you may not get a decibel reduction, but it hits your ear in a different way that doesn't sound nearly as harsh or sharp. So it's interesting how many different ways you can go at this and get different results, but I've found that it's usually the thing that I expect the least that ends up working the best. And then you've got a whole other rabbit hole that you get to go down. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Yeah, I remember when I was working on the designs for our mufflers and I remember looking at suppressors and thinking that maybe I can utilize some of the de these designs in my muffler. And I quickly learned that no, they're not the same thing. We're we're the noises that we're fighting are different, right? It's it's not an Ian White: Yes. Jourdan Dunn: air f airflow noise. So, yeah, But yeah, that's funny that you mentioned that. The f Ian White: Yeah, we've got a consistent a consistent air movement issue, whereas a pistol is gonna be a single high pressure burst of air. And they reduce the internal diameter. they allow it to expand a significant amount, but they've got baffles inside the pipe that if we were to transfer that to a radon system, now we're reducing the interior diameter of the pipe, and now we've got more pressure. that the the fan has to overcome on the positively pressurized side of the pipe. Jourdan Dunn: Right. Ian White: Doesn't doesn't transfer the same way. Okay, so you've got sound solutions. going back to variable speed of the fan, that EC motor allows us to control the speed. You're working on a new product that directly ties into that. What's can you walk me through that? Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, so I think I I don't think that I'm alone in thinking of this. I know other people have thought of this idea. It just makes sense. but I think a couple things have Ian White: Yes. Jourdan Dunn: come into play that is w and and has allowed this to be a lot easier now and it just I think now is the time. and that's one is gonna be the consumer grade rate on monitors. We love our homeowners to have their own monitor. I remember talking to so many homeowners when I first started running appointments and I understand the thought of the conflict of interest when you're talking about, hey, the only way to test is to have a professional come out and test who then is gonna tell you this is how your levels are high and then I'm gonna fix it. So I've loved the hands off of do your own test. You don't have to take my for it. Do your own test and these consumer grade monitors are so accurate now. I've tested a lot of them out. EcoSense is my favorite. so the Eco Cube is really accurate. And I think it's I think the United States should do it, but in Canada they do. that would be testing consumer grade radon monitors. I don't know if you're aware of that, but this Ian White: Yeah. Jourdan Dunn: yeah, is it the Canadian NRPP C N R P does testing on consumer grade monitors and I think that's a good tool for homeowners to have because I I recommend that homeowners go with a reputable brand because I I I've also seen the bad side of these consumer grade radar monitors. So unfortunately there's a bunch of kind of knockoffs that are available on Amazon, so make sure you go with a reputable brand. Ecosense, AirThings. Aeronet all seem to be pretty good. So, anyway, the consumer grade radar monitors, being accurate, being out there, allowing Bluetooth connectivity or Wi-Fi connectivity. And then the combination of that and the EC speed controllable fans. So within these speed controllable fans, a lot of times they'll have a little potentiometer, just a little dial, so you can dial it back. That's just being fed by wires. so we can essentially do all of this electronically, have it automated. So the the basis of the radon genie is let's take instant readings from a consumer grade radon monitor like the EcoCube and let's adjust the fan speed as needed. So one important thing, and being in the industry. And understanding this is you still want the levels as low as achievable. So it's not, hey, let's just get it below four and let's stop right there. you know, the World Health Organization's 2.7. Our goal is always to get it below two at least, but really you want them as low as possible. So the basic logic for the radon genie is you set it up, it's gonna run your fan at 100% speed for 24 hours. To mitigate the levels, so you'll see the levels drop down. And then it's gonna run it at 100% speed for 48 hours. And that's where it's gonna record the radon levels, and the average for that 48 hours is gonna be your baseline. And that's typically what's done during mitigation, anyway, is you know, that 48-hour measurement is what we we would use as our post-mitigation test results for the homeowner. So to give you an idea. My home tests when I did this sequence at my house, my my home tests at 0.8 with my fan running at a hundred percent speed and now my fan is averaging probably thirty-five percent speed and my radon levels are still zero point eight. So when it was super nice out, we had our windows and doors open. my fan was running at its minimum speed while Keeping the impeller spinning because it's important that the fan does not stop. and consulting with the fan manufacturers like Festa you know, on on the safeguards for that. So it's still gonna be spinning, but it's gonna be you wouldn't even hear that it's running. The YouTube manometer would basically look like it's almost even. You're gonna see just a a very small difference in those sides because it's barely spinning. And then as soon as, it starts getting colder, we started closing the windows. before the radon levels really have a chance to to get out of control, the fan speed is gonna ramp up. So it's been it's been really cool to see. I've got it set up at my house, I've got it set up at the office, I've got it set at my brother's house. Just set it up at a house the other day for a customer who his house test at tested at 110. And you know our post mitigation our baseline was two point five and right now it's gone into autopilot mode and his average fan fan speed is down below seventy percent right now. So, you know, in most cases you you run into a situation where especially you have levels like that in the hundreds, you think, you know, we need we need To put a big fan on, we need to make sure this fan is cranked up all the time. and it really I I think it's an old way of thinking and I think that that this just makes sense. Let's just control the radon system based on the radon level. Ian White: that's so cool because I've thought about this for a long time. I even chatted about it with Daryl when I was down there. And I guess the question I always go back to is obviously there's a a thousand variables that go into this and radon levels are consistently varying, purely due to pressure differences and operation of the home and weather and there's just so many factors. How Quickly are you taking measurements and then changing the fan output based on those? Jourdan Dunn: So it's doing 10 minute polls. So it's gonna it's gonna take readings every ten minutes from whatever radon monitor it's it's using and based on the previous ten minute pull say the levels are going up, then it's gonna start to crank up that fan speed. So it wants to be a little predictive. so and then it's gonna gradually lower the speed if the if the levels are starting to go down. So but yeah, every ten minutes is the way that these is the way the eco cube is set up. And so that's that's what we're doing with the genie. Ian White: Is and I assume that's a a wireless thing or is it plugged directly into your at home monitor? Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, so that's a good question. So the Genie setup consists of two devices from my end. So I have a hub and a controller. The hub would be inside your home. the nice thing about the hub is it has a light indicator on it and it has an audible alarm. the hub is gonna communicate with the radon monitor, EcoCube. It's gonna communicate with that eco cube via Bluetooth. So it does need to be within a Bluetooth range signal. And then it's going to communicate with a controller that's going to be hardwired into those control wires within the EC fan. That communication is is via Wi-Fi. So it doesn't and when I say Wi-Fi, I'm not talking about internet. You know, it doesn't need to be connected to the internet. It's broadcasting its own Wi-Fi signal. Communicate with the controller. So all of this can be set up in a home without internet. We can go to a vacant house, it has its own network. Now, if it's not connected to the internet, then you can't access any of the data remotely, but it'll still do its job without any internet. So yeah, have a Radon Genie app. So obviously, if you want to set it up, if you want to connect it to your internet, then you can. view everything remotely, you can get notifications, you can share it with your pro. So the nice thing with that one that I set up I talked about previously at the homeowner that tested at 110. I have access to his radon genie. So I see what his radon levels are, I see what his fan speed is, the controller is measuring the RPMs from the fan. And so I am able to also see what his parameters are. So there's a lot of customizability within this. You can set your maximum speed, your minimum. There's there is a safeguard on the minimum, but you can you can raise the mi the minimum speed if you want to. You can adjust your baseline rate on levels, say, you know, my levels are 0.8, but say I'm okay if it's at one. in my basement. We're not spending time down there. I can adjust that so that my fan is running at even lower speed majority of the time, probably. so all that's customizable and then yeah the basic logic is the hub is gonna be inside Bluetooth range of a radon monitor and then the controller is going to be hardwired into an EC EC fan, whether it's in an attic Or outside. Ian White: Very cool. I think that's been one of the nicest things about the improvement of at home monitors is people now have access to data that previously only we as professionals had. You know, now they're they're getting hourly readings and averages and trend data versus a charcoal puck in the corner that's I explain it to people like a rain gauge. We stick a rain gauge out in the yard Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday morning you wake up and there's six inches of water in it. If you weren't home, you have no idea how much it rained Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. So you just get a rough average. But now, I'm a numbers nerd, so I love it. You can look at everything. Here's when it snowed. Here's when it was raining. Here's when I had all the doors and windows open. So I knowing that you have a Bluetooth connection to the hub, I assume that. helps open up the number of devices that or at-home monitors that this radon genie is able to communicate with. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, absolutely. so the other thought is incorporating this into larger scale projects eventually. apartment complexes or bigger situations where you have multiple monitors. the way it's set up right now is it's it's just operating off of one monitor. so you just kinda pick which one you want. but Yeah, that that's that's funny. That's the same way that I've thought about it with the charcoal canisters is I just I I don't know. I just try to be think put myself in the shoes of the homeowner and I'm like, if I were you, I would just buy my own radon monitor. just make sure you get a good one. You're gonna spend over a hundred bucks, but it's gonna last you a long time. and the from a mitigator standpoint, it's also like, Hey, get your radon monitor. If your levels are high, we're going to mitigate it. Once you see your levels are consistently low, let your friends, let your neighbors, let your family borrow that monitor. Let them test. And the amount of jobs we've gotten from Facebook groups, neighborhood groups, is amazing. Where they were just passing around a radon monitor, a consumer-grade monitor. So I'm yeah, I'm definitely sold on them. Ian White: Yeah, we we get a ton from book clubs, neighborhood HOAs is another big one. But yeah, I I tell every people er I tell every people, I tell everybody, Jourdan Dunn: Mm-hmm. Ian White: just just test. Like it's it's important, especially if you know, you got kids sleeping in the basement or grandma lives with you now and it it's just it's important and it it's one of the most understood and well studied issues that we have. And yet there's still so many people that have never even heard about it or aren't aware of its true effects. And it's challenging being in this space knowing that. Because I have people push back all the time, you know, they're selling the house and they've lived there for 30 years and they're perfectly fine. Why do I have to put mitigation in? And it's challenging for me because I've got to think about the family that might move in, or three families from now that might move in. Yeah, you don't spend time in the basement, but they might. So it's it's very cool to see those communities come together and I had high rate on. You should check your house and then everybody gets helped. And that's probably my favorite part about this industry is once you do a good job for one person, everybody else is just stoked about it. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, and when you do run into instances where a house tests over a hundred, luckily the homeowner understood, did his research and wasn't absolutely freaking out about it. But Ian White: Mm-hmm. Jourdan Dunn: but I was also like, Hey, we need to take care of this as soon as we can. So, you know, we were able to get out there really quick and I was excited about it. I'm like, I can't wait to see this graph. See these levels drop from over a hundred down to close to two. And and you know, you In most it most of the situations, I mean obviously it all depends on the house, but you're not talking about doing a completely different system. most of the times a standard mitigation system is gonna take care of the levels, whether it's five or fifty. it's it's doing the same thing. So that's there's a lot a little misconception within or from maybe homeowners or real estate agents sometimes where they they're like, you know. Well, this house only tested at five. It's like, well that's that's the same mitigation system we'd put on if it tested at fifty. It's it doesn't change. Ian White: Right. Yeah, we had a house test over nine hundred and purely because of the footprint, we put two systems on it. But we had relatively modest fans. We put we had a Maverick and I think we did have a Legend extreme on on the other half of the system, but post installation test came back under three on both both sides of the house, so yeah. Jourdan Dunn: Wow. Nine hundred Ian White: Yeah. Yeah, they were built directly on a large granite shelf. So made sense. And they had an underground tunnel made of cinder blocks. So once we got that sealed, and and that's I'm glad you brought that up because, whether you're at five or fifty or nine hundred, the approach is the same. It's not like we need to do extra just because this is testing so high. If you're testing at 900 or 50, it's not like you're gonna spend way more money if you're testing at 900. In this situation, we just had to seal the cinder blocks and install a system. But 95% of the time, it's always the same variables that we're trying to control. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. What monitor did you use to get those reading? What what what C RMs are you using? Ian White: W we use the EcoCube pros. Yeah, it was it was high. I think that's the highest I've ever personally tested, but I have seen tests from other mitigators in the three and four thousand range. So pretty high. Daryl actually told me about a house over six thousand, so that's insane. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Yeah, that's the only ones I've been a part of have been in the hundreds. and you know, I don't I don't know if you've seen some of those videos. there was an old one, but it's still really good. I think the basement was in tested around a hundred and they set up one of those they set up a little chamber, almost like an a a aquarium tank, and they Ian White: Mm-hmm. Jourdan Dunn: used dry ice to show the decaying. of the radon. And y Ian White: Yep, the alpha particles shooting through the fog. Jourdan Dunn: yeah. Yeah, I think that's so cool. I think that's I I keep meaning I to I need to either copy that or link that from our website j and just show homeowners more often like, look at this. This is this is what it's doing. 'cause putting a visual to it, I think really helps. Ian White: Yeah, I agree. And that's human nature, right? We l we love the visuals Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Ian White: because it's so hard to think about perspective with something that's microscopic. Or in this case, I the way I explain it to homeowners is this is subatomic shrapnel. This is coming from the nucleus Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Ian White: of an atom. So it is smaller than an atom, and yet you can still see it shoot through that fog. And Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Ian White: you can see the speed at which it's moving. You have that down in your lungs. That that can cause some damage. I would I would also like Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Ian White: to replicate that. I think it'd be fun. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Ian White: If anything, just for the guys to see it too. for our crew to see it because it it really is a very real just in your face thing. Jourdan Dunn: Yes, we've sh we've shown it in our Monday morning meetings, but I'll probably probably do to bring that up again. It's that's a really cool visual. But yeah, the consumer grade monitors I thought it was really cool too once I went to a guy's house and he was having problems. He had a he had a mitigation system but not installed by us, but He noticed his levels were still high and he had an AirThings monitor and he was able to directly correlate it with barometric pressure. and it was I was like, Wow, this is it's cool that you from a homeowner can figure that out on your own, with some of these monitors. So, yeah. Ian White: Yeah, every once in a while I get a a client who's, an electrical engineer or some one of those super nerds that if they tried to tell you what they do, you're just sitting there half cross-eyed because none of it makes sense. And yeah, it's it's fun to listen to them I I learned so much from those people. Like, yes, I understand that it's barometric pressure, but the fact that you have those direct correlations or Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Ian White: my I do you guys work on other guys' systems very often or or make modifications to existing systems. Jourdan Dunn: So, we do not I mean not really often, but w we do, yeah. If if the homeowner's having a problem, I think if they just get frustrated or whatever it may be, they'll usually reach out to us. so yeah, every once in a while we're dealing with that. Ian White: Yeah, that's a challenging place Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Ian White: to be. Especially when you've got a like the the one I see around here all the time is the suction point is just a toilet flange under the vapor barrier. And there may be four or five crawl space bays and there is a single suction point and the homeowner's like, My radon is still super high. It's like, Well, we need to depressurize all of this space so we can do that. But like I didn't install it. I You gotta pay me for that. So yeah. Jourdan Dunn: I know. I feel for Yeah. Yep. That's the way I f I am too, is I feel for the homeowner. I'm like, you you you paid for this system and it I it puts a little bit of a black eye on the industry in a as a whole. I Ian White: Yeah. Jourdan Dunn: hate I hate that, you know. Just but yeah, I mean it's like I have to charge you to fix this unfortunately. So you're paying again. but my biggest gripe, my biggest Room for improvement in the industry is is new construction. It's gonna be residential new construction. If we can get builders to either be they're pretty much gonna have to be required in order to do it, but to get licensed radon specialists to install passive systems. that way we we know they're done right. I think it would be a game changer. I I cannot stand going into brand new housing developments. And telling these homeowners that I have to run a PVC pipe up the outside of their house because there's no interior option and the builder didn't want to pre-plumb a pipe inside. And when they do, they're typically having plumbers do it or somebody who doesn't care is not in the industry and it's not done right. And then you get a homeowner that says, I already have the passive pipe, just gotta put the fan on it. And it turns out being a lot more work than that. so it's yeah, that's that's where I'm at. I don't know how often you guys are running into that or or where where your side of the country stands on that, but Ian White: I'm in the same boat. this area, Gallant Valley's has exploded over the last probably ten years. But yeah, there's countless passive systems that I go to where the the homeowner is expecting, you know, a four hundred dollar fan. And it's just so much more than that. Or I go to those houses and the fan is installed and the pipe's not routed through the roof. Or the fan is installed and running and it's just stubbed out into the crawl space and it's just pulling crawl space air. who knows whether or not we're backdrafting appliances or it's so inefficient pulling air that you're paying the heat and cool out of the house. If if I do my job correctly, I'm not doing that 'cause that's inefficient. So I need to get it under that vapor barrier. Well, that vapor barrier is not in good shape. I've got to replace it. that that's another cost. So It's so challenging and I think again, I'm not we work closely with the Montana DEQ. I'm not opposed to standardization. They don't necessarily want more regulation and I don't either because oftentimes red tape is more of a headache than it's worth. But there's gotta be some standardization and More education. And they're doing their best, but you know how the government is, so I I think it falls on us as mitigators. And that's always been my approach, is education first. Because if you don't understand it, what are we doing here? Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, and the the you know, the codes and the standards are are great. Ohio is a pretty regulated state. sometimes it is for the better, sometimes it's for the worse. But if if we as licensed radon mitigators are required to, you know, follow all these standards and codes, I don't understand why a builder is allowed to have a plumber put in a pipe and write radon on it and there's no explanation to the homeowner. there's no, hey, you know, do a test after the house is livable. there's just a pipe that says radon on it. And more often than not it's not even it's not a passive pipe. It's not even doing what a passive system would do. if it was installed correctly sometimes it can mitigate the levels without a fan. But yeah, home o new homes, I mean you you build a new home, definitely have an inspection done on that house. and And yeah, better understanding. I'm almost to the point where I like if if the builder would at least just at least just plum a pipe from the basement to the attic or through the roof and cap it. just Ian White: Mm-hmm. Jourdan Dunn: so we're not talking you know, y you can't just have it through the slab and s stuck into the dirt below the gravel or or, you know, not even through the slab. so at least I wouldn't have to run the pipe up the outside of a brand new house. But yeah, that's my it's it's Ian White: Yeah. Put it in the wall. Jourdan Dunn: a big frustration for me. Ian White: yeah, we run into it too. I had a builder call a couple of weeks ago and he's like, Hey, will you guys come out and cap these passive systems for me? Because they're making mold in my crawl space. I was like, Well, it's pr that's probably not the cause of the mold in the crawl space. It's probably the lack of the vapor barrier and lack of ventilation, but I'm sorry, but I can't come out and cap these pipes. It goes directly against our philosophy as a company. I I will install a fan and activate the system for you, but Jourdan Dunn: Right. Ian White: I can't just come out and put a cap on it. It's not uncommon for it to be plumbed through the roof. I see this all the time. It's through the roof, it's down through the an interior wall of the home, so it's nice and hidden, out of sight, out of mind, and then they cap it in the crawl space. And you go to add a system to that and you Jourdan Dunn: no. Ian White: cut that cap off, and there's 20 gallons of water in that pipe. And now you are soaked. So I always take a bucket, drill a hole in the bottom of it first. Oftentimes there's only a gallon or two of water, but it's way better than spraying it everything down there with water. So Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, one of the other things we have around here is slab on grade homes and ductwork ran under the slab. So that was a thing and I mean we still have some newer homes that are doing it, but yeah, we run into slab on grade homes with the terracotta or clay ceramic ductwork underneath the slab ran within that gravel layer. And our pool registers I'll stick my phone down in there, I'll be looking down in there, and I'll actually see gravel sitting in their ductwork in some s situations. And so, you know, trying to mitigate it is mitigate it from the radon standpoint is very difficult. But then also I'm thinking about it and I'm like, we're just gonna be pulling your conditioned air out of your ductwork. Like the energy consumption loss From this system is gonna be so bad. so we actually I don't know if you've ever heard of aero seal. There's a couple different methods of sealing ductwork. Aeroseal is one, and then there's duct armor, where they can seal the ductwork from the inside. so we've done quite a few jobs where we've actually used aeroseal to seal the ductwork. before we did a mitigation or if the mitigation system didn't get the l levels down and we could clearly see, you know, one easy way to check is to just find a closet, pull up some carpet, drill a a hole through the slab and measure the pressure under the slab without the furnace on, and then kick the furnace fan on. and if that if that f Yep. Yep. Ian White: So the opposite of PFE testing. But okay. Okay, I'm following. Jourdan Dunn: you'll see it flip positive. I've actually had instances where we had a mitigation system on the home and it's it flipped from negative to positive when we turned the furnace fan on. So that's a nice like easy way and the homeowners really understand it when you show that too. Like look, it's you're blowing air into the gravel under the slab. but yeah, so we've had that has been another you know learning experience and dealing with that. But yeah, that the indoor, pulling conditioned air out of the house is just it's another huge power consumption that you don't think about when you're oversizing a fan or oversizing a system in general. And yeah, another benefit of dialing the fan back as much as you can. Ian White: Yeah, it's more efficient. And like you said, why run it a hundred percent when forty percent is more than enough? So so w I I've only ever done one home with subslab duct work, and thankfully it was only supply lines. So at least it was positively pressurized Jourdan Dunn: Yes. Ian White: while the system was running. But what does that duct sealing process look like? And you guys do it, or do you have somebody come in and do it? Jourdan Dunn: So we did become an aerosel dealer, so we will do aeroseal. aeroseal is really cool. basically we have to go through and clean the ductwork first, but we block off every register. we have to get into the plenum, at least block off under the coil, so completely isolate the ductwork. we hook up the aeroseal equipment, which basically just has a big fan in it. We pressurize the ductwork. we in all this all of this is done through the aeroseal software. but then we are able to measure the leakage of the ductwork. and then we spray the aerosol sealant through. Aerosal is cool because it doesn't completely coat the ductwork. you spray the aerosol sealant through and it's just gonna adhere and scab up over any of the openings. So Because the ductwork's pressurized, when that sealant is going through, it's gonna all the particles collide when it's trying to go out of a small crack or opening, and it ends up sealing that gap. so then you know we're we're able to seal it down to you know three square inches of total leakage. Can't completely seal it, but yeah, getting that sealed, I it's it's pretty crazy because I have I have radon test graphs where you could clearly see when the furnace kicked on and when it turned off. When it was on, when it was off. and then when we were able to go through and seal the ductwork, it's much more consistent. You might still have a little peak and valley, but it's gonna be a lot more consistent. And then obvious we're not gonna be pulling as much conditioned air out of their ductwork system. So that's the aero seal. Duct armor we've never done But it actually coats the entire ductwork, so it's a completely different process. You're not pressurizing the ductwork, you're you're sending a hose down through that's gonna spray the ductwork from the inside and seal it up. Ian White: How do you deal with those those peaks and valleys? Because even after we install a mitigation system, you're still gonna have peaks and valleys on your radon tests. I assume you're more focused on the average versus an a single ugly spike somewhere. How do you communicate that with homeowners? Because they have an at-home monitor. we install a system we're down to, one point five, but then they get a spike up to four point two. What what do you do in those situations? Jourdan Dunn: So with the with the test report I think it's easy to just s s show them the average and and and usually they'll understand if it's a consistent up and down yeah, that makes sense. That's when our HVAC was kicking on. in other situations where they're looking at a real time reading on their consumer grade monitor, I I try to explain to them, look, this is you know, this is measuring the decay of radon and you might get a bunch that decay at once and then you'll have time where there's not any and then you get a bunch. So it's you have to look at an average. It's not a consistent, hey, decay, decay, decay. You have to look at an average because it's it's not gonna be, you know, consistently decaying. So that's with these consumer grade monitors, even when we talk to them, I'm like, just don't leave it on the real time reading. Let's Always move it to at least a twenty-four hour average. you know, our warranty is based on a seven day weekly average with these consumer grade monitors. so that's how we uphold our warranty. If it gets above our you know, threshold for seven days, then we'll come back out and do any extra work we need to. But because I know how accurate these monitors are and they're calling us and the twenty-four hour average is above, I'm usually already concerned and I'm like, okay, I need to come out and look at it, see what's going on. But yeah, that's that's the only thing that I don't love about having the instant readings from these monitors is that's not really the way you should be measuring radon, but trying to explain that to the homeowner is a little tricky sometimes. Most of the time they understand that. Ian White: Are there other super common misconceptions or lack of info that homeowners have that you consistently have to deal with? Jourdan Dunn: so, you know, because we're pretty heavily regulated in Ohio, it's you know, it's basically explaining to them like, look, we have to run schedule forty PVC pipe. we have to vent it above the roof twelve inches. we cannot put rain caps on the system. that's probably the number one thing is homeowners want a rain cap on the system. Because what's going to happen with the water? Well, I usually I try to explain to them the amount of condensation that we're going to get inside this vent pipe is going to be more than the rain that's going to fall down in this vent pipe. So the system is built to handle water inside of it. During those colder months, we're moving warm air through that pipe. You get a ton of condensation inside. All that water is going to be hugging the interior walls, it's going to divert around the fan motor, and it's going to go down under your slab and dissipate or go into your sump. It's it's it's not gonna hurt the system at all. But that I'd say that's the number one thing is they want rain caps and or some sort of cap on the top and you you do run you can run into problems if you do that with icing icing over during the winters. Ian White: Yeah, Jesse with American Jourdan Dunn: I don't know how Ian White: Radon Mitigation had a pretty good video on rain caps and potential solutions there and the actual performance effects it had on the fan itself and the system itself. I I've been working on these up on the roof when it's dumping snow or dumping rain, and there's so much air coming out of that pipe that ninety-nine percent of the rain or snow doesn't go down in the pipe anyways. It just there's this force field above the pipe and it all diverts around that. Jourdan Dunn: Right. that's interesting. I didn't think about the performance when you kind of have a rain cap block in the top. I guess it depends on what the rain cap is, but you're gonna see your vacuum drop on your YouTube for sure. Ian White: Yep. Yeah, any Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Ian White: flow restriction you give, it's an impact on the system performance. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Have you have you guys have you Ian White: Is there anything else you're w Sorry, go ahead. Jourdan Dunn: guys had any issues with the I mean, are you installing you know, barmit guards or critter guards on your systems? Ian White: Yep. I so I print pest caps because the ones we have available, they're metal and the grid is just too small. They ice up too easily. So I'm just printing pest caps for us for three and four inch in in an effort to open that grid up a little bit more. I I actually found a rattlesnake in a fan. thankfully it was dead. The fan was installed in the crawl space, but Things get into these systems or a bird sitting up there 'cause it's nice and warm and then falls down in there. I see that all the time. So that's a big one big reason why I don't do gutter downspout. I I see more critters in gutter downspout than I do in PVC. it's usually improperly installed, but It also that condensation freezes in gutter downspout and then it starts humming like a tuning fork and people hate that. So Jourdan Dunn: Mm-hmm. Ian White: I just don't even I don't even go there anymore because it always creates more of a headache than it's worth. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, I've changed countless fans from our old systems that didn't have any kind of critter guard on the top. With squirrels, birds. I've I've seen a squirrel almost bite its way out of the fan housing to Ian White: Wow. Jourdan Dunn: where there was an opening. There was a little opening in the side where he had chewed his way almost all the way through the fan housing. But it's so it's I mean it's a standard for us. Just just put a grill on the top. at least a little deterrent. Obviously when the fan's running you're not getting any animals down in there. But when that fan stops running for some reason they find their way down in there and it and even if it the grill's a little deterrent, maybe it'll help. Obviously a squirrel can chew through some plastic, but I'm hoping that that, you know, helps. We we used the metal, you know, grills for that than the metal grills. so but yeah, I think everybody should be putting something over that the top of the pipe so we're not having these once you change a fan that has a squirrel and bird in it, you kinda realize all right, this is I don't wanna be doing this again. Ian White: Yeah. N it's gross, but it I also feel bad for the bird. that's a tough way to go. Falling down in a pipe Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. Ian White: and ending up in a radon fan. we also will put our pest caps pretty close to above the fan to prevent any ice falling down the pipe and then lodging in the fan and hitting that thermal overload switch in the fan and setting that off. I see that frequently. So we'll have a pest cap down above the fan as well. Jourdan Dunn: Interesting. I'm not really familiar Ian White: Yeah. Jourdan Dunn: with that. So you'll have a an internal pest cap like right above the fan? Ian White: Yeah, so this actually came, I don't know if you've spoken with Doug Clatter. He's out of Colorado Springs. Surti. Surdy and N RPP. He's heavily involved in that. But it given our climate, he'd he recommended something, and his recommendation was basically an all-thread crosshair above the pipe or directly above the fan in the pipe. And I was like, I'm already 3D printing pest caps with huge openings. It's not gonna impact the the flow of the air. So typically on exterior systems, our pipes against the wall and we've got a neck out to provide clearance for the fan. And so right in that neck we'll put another pest cap to prevent ice sliding down the pipe and ending up in the fan. Jourdan Dunn: wow. Okay. Yeah, I don't I've never I mean, I don't know what your winters are compared to ours, but I I don't think we've ever had ice issues with our fans. but yeah, even even when we do we're with you, the Festa and their warranty process is awesome. so happy with that. Yeah. Ian White: Yeah. Yeah, they genuinely care and that's nice to see. It's I've really enjoyed speaking to other people in this industry who obviously care. And it's hard to put a price on that because so many other service industries just you don't see that anymore. It's challenging. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, I feel it. I feel it when we have, yeah, different industries coming out or even when we work side by side with some of But I'm always happy to talk to some to some radon nerds and chat about different things we can do to improve it and I think I I'm I'm happy to see some newer, fresh blood in the industry, some younger guys, to kind of let's move it forward. make some imp improvements. It's always been, just using what we can, finding, you know, the plumbing pieces that we need or whatever it may be. But yeah, I'm happy to see improvements and I appreciate you wanting to chat with me and we'll definitely stay in touch. Ian White: Yeah, this has been fun. We should we should do it again. I'll come up with a whole list of questions for ya. Jourdan Dunn: Cool. That'd be great. Ian White: So all right. Well, don't work too hard today. we'll stay Jourdan Dunn: Yeah. Ian White: in touch and we'll go from there. Thanks for hopping on. This is fun. Jourdan Dunn: Yeah, thanks Ian. I appreciate it, man.