Latest / Finding New Waters / Exploring Trauma, Attachment Styles, and Somatic Experiencing with Zumrad Ahmedjanova

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Exploring Trauma, Attachment Styles, and Somatic Experiencing with Zumrad Ahmedjanova · Finding New Waters

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I think that's how people Define what trauma is and when they
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think drama, they think about the war war type trauma.
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Like they saw something atrocious, right?
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Like a murderer or something like horrible, my trauma can be
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so, so not necessarily that kind of scary, be contractions thing.
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But for a child, let's say, right?
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I'm talking about the child. In this case, trauma can be
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parents forgot to pick to pick me from daycare.
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Yeah. Or It's me at the gas station
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where they were getting gas and everybody got in the car and
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drove away and then they'll like, oh God like I do remember,
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oh there's one child is missing but simple back, there could
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just be someone, someone said something to you in a way that
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maybe it wouldn't have been traumatic to one person, but the
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way that it was sent to you in that time in that moment you
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took that internal in you and screeches.
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That is that traumatic? What?
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Exactly. So we so complex like the our
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brain and I will like system. So complex and just saying, it's
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only one way you can get. And there's no way you can get a
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nun another way, because your parents are perfect.
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And there's actually no perfect parents.
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And let's talk about Good afternoon, and welcome to
1:33
finding new Waters. My name is Graham dirty and I'm
1:36
the founder and CEO of new orders recovery in Raleigh.
1:38
North Carolina. I'm joined today by our medical
1:40
director dr. Harold Hong and zoom rad, Ahmed
1:43
Genova, Zoom Rod as a clinical, social worker, addiction
1:47
specialist certified supervisor, and owner of a group practice
1:50
called The Art of Wellness. She spirals her expertise and
1:54
passion into every aspect of our work, with over 15 years of
1:57
experience, diverse educational background and fluency in
2:00
multiple languages. Has Zoom rod and bodies a unique
2:03
approach that a Foster's healthy relationships Embraces the
2:06
connection between mind and body.
2:09
Guiding individuals and couples through personal and
2:11
professional challenges. Zoom, Rowdy Jewels, utilizes,
2:14
her vast expertise in addressing emotional problems, offering
2:17
support, and healing her commitment to your professional
2:20
growth and collaboration with renowned experts further.
2:22
Enhances her ability to provide empathetic and effective
2:25
therapy. In addition to our therapeutic
2:27
practice Zoom rod runs couples workshops that offers invaluable
2:31
Parents and support for relationships, the upcoming
2:34
upcoming relationship marriage preparation one day.
2:37
Workshop on May 7th is tailored specifically for couples who are
2:40
early in the relationships. Providing them with the tools
2:43
and insights needed to build a strong Foundation as a speaker
2:48
and a supervisor Zoom Rod shares, her knowledge on the
2:50
biopsychosocial perspective and strategies for emotional
2:53
well-being. Connecting with diverse
2:55
audiences and clients in a meaningful way and the ever
2:58
evolving field of therapy and healing zubrod stands out as a
3:00
perfect. Powerfully effective stands out
3:04
as a powerfully effective, therapist and leader enriched by
3:07
her deep understanding of cultural identity.
3:10
Our goal in creating new, finding new Waters is to provide
3:12
a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of
3:15
supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or
3:18
mental health. When we find ourselves in
3:20
crisis, due to one of these issues, most people have no idea
3:23
where to turn, we hope to shed some light on to what is often
3:25
The Darkest Hour for many families.
3:28
Thank you very much for being with us today is your birthday.
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It's a pleasure and an honor to Fantastic.
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Well and, you know, I like to kind of start off in this way
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because I find it. Oh, it's always very interesting
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to get a little bit of background and understanding of,
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maybe how you found yourself coming into this field, how you
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found yourself doing this type of work and really, what drives
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you what? What kind of brought you to work
3:54
in the behavioral health field to begin with?
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Well, I did Masters in cultural anthropology.
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And I was very interested, like, in the dynamic between, like,
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human and society, and, and I was going deeper and deeper into
4:09
that. I got like, more into psychology
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parts of it because he just cannot separate those two.
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Just felt like that to me and that time.
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And when it came question, like, what's next for me?
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And I was talking at that time, with my advisor.
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He and because I was also knew, Dates.
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And I was telling this is what my aspirations and that's what I
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want to do. And I was thinking of going
4:32
further, dude, PhD. And he asked, do you, what do
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you want to do with your PhD? And I was such a good question.
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Like, what do I want to do with PhD?
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So I thought, I really want to work with people.
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Hmm. And he said, this is not the
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right field for you. He said, you probably social
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work will be a better field for you.
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So, that's how I kind of pivoted and I went to to do.
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Social Work master's degree at UNC actually.
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I got I got to UNC and that's how the whole process started.
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Very nice, me weird ass and I know specifically you work a lot
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with couples and relationships, can you can you elaborate a
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little bit on that and and your the modalities that you use
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around that? Yeah so well when I started
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working with individuals like it just could not avoid but like
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noticing what really affects Individuals.
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So it's like slowly just doing DBT and CPT.
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That's how it started at. This is how it will all mostly
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trained. You know, in programs and social
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work programs. I start noticing that there's
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more into that like so the past affect people like they
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childhood effect, you know, the way how they grow up with their
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parents, the attachment style. So it's that like looking for
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the attachment studies as I start looking for attachment
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Styles and studying it more, I start loading Like in addition
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to attachment Styles, there is a part of like how they regulate
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themselves like okay. Like they have insecure
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attachment like how they can regulate themselves.
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So I got into somatic experiencing modality like
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learning regulation and how to tie trade those like regular
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like titrate the the ways of discomfort in the body.
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Yeah. How are you doing that
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specifically the, this one's a little bit about the somatic
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experience. It's a really interesting
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actually modality, because it basically says that body, never
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lies. You can tell your brain.
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This is what's happening, but body will show and the light is
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not even on level of, its kind of like, so subconscious, it's
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very intuitive. That sometimes people don't even
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understand, they just feel weird, you know, they don't they
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cannot really, really name it or pinpoint and put finger on That
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and the somatic work helps to like really get in touch with
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the body and say, okay, what is it?
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I'm really feeling in the moment, what's happening?
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So, some very subtle, subtle, things, like the way, how we
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look the way how we recognize things look like it's a
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milliseconds of memories. Yes, of milliseconds of like
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emotions. It's so fast because like the,
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the neural Pathways in our brain became so so fast.
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Just when we connect one event and the trigger that happened
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before, right? It just happened so fast.
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How we react to that? It can just take Ms. Yes,
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there's this huge research going on these days about
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interoception. Yeah, which is the feelings that
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we receive from our bodies. Hmm.
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And it's breaking up this whole idea that we are our brain, if
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it's not in our brain, that it doesn't matter.
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And we really do, Driving ourselves of so much of our
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wisdom and our skill. When we don't pay attention to
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your body and it shows up everywhere, most interestingly
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is it shows up in Traders on Wall Street in there and the
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traders who listen to their gut about go or no-go do better than
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the people who develop these elaborate PowerPoint
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presentations. About things.
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Right? And and it's so interesting
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because when it comes to relationships, feel like there's
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so many people who have A gut feeling about their partner but
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their addiction or their social expectation tells them to do
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something else. Yeah.
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And it usually doesn't work out, it's right.
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It's like there's a belief system or societal expectation
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of family expectation and then my gut, and when my God against
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all of that, it just so hard to like them, talk to each other.
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I'm 31, I should be married should be having kids.
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Now Rhea paths on this trajectory but this person's not
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the right person but it's who I'm with now.
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Right. And I think people get into
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long-term relationships and weird people.
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They shouldn't be right, that's right.
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Yeah. So but actually attachment site
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there's a really interesting New York Times article that came out
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talking about how Tick Tock has put so much psychological
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language into the world. And now it's getting into dating
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profiles. Someone you're talking about
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attachments us. So now it's very Common on like
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people on hinge coffee, meets Bagel Tinder to talk about your
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relationships out as part of your bio.
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Wow, right thing. So but for there are a lot of
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people out there who have missed that boat, I can, if you're if
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you're if you're married and like over 35, maybe you've
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missed that book. So I would love it.
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If you could tell us a little bit about what are, what are
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these attachment Styles and why is it helpful to know about
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them? Yeah, yeah, that's just There
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are four main attachment Styles and different researchers kind
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of call them differently, but I will call them just to make it
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simple. There's a secure one, right?
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It's where the, in the relationship, we just feel like
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we can be autonomous and independent, and be okay and our
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own body in our own thoughts and feelings, and feel like the
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world is okay. And I'm okay.
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And that's a really. Yeah, it's a skirt, that's a
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secure that, right? And then there are three.
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Attachment Styles. Which one like one is anxious.
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One is avoidant. And one is this organized.
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Hmm. So and all of them kind of like
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really interesting how it works together because it's not
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necessarily that lets say, I can.
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If I have Instagram, if I have secure attachment, I have secure
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attachment with everybody in my, in my life and my relationship
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for example, I might have secure attachment with my mother and
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insecure attachment with my father, or Or avoidant
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attachment with my boss, you know like and we just can go
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like the attachment style does not necessarily will go for all
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aspects of my life. It will depends on with whom I
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am in what relationship. Okay.
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And then why half of one type of attachment with most of the
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people, probably that kind of shows a lot to me.
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This is what I will bring also to therapy, you know, this is
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what I will bring to. You know, to my to my
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relationship. This is what I will bring to my
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workplace. Like how do I see the world?
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Am I okay in that world. Oh, I'm not okay in the world.
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Oh, I'm The Only One. Ok, in the world is not okay,
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right? Yeah.
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Right. This is super interesting.
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It's in couples where you have one person who's sober and
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another one who's actively drinking excessively or using
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some other intoxicating substance.
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What do you think is going on with the attachment Styles in
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that? Friendship that keeps them
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together in this kind of dysfunctional, way of being
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together, but they also think it's like dysfunctional
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functional as how I've heard some people made it, right?
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So it's land when two people become one and that create kind
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of, I don't want to say it codependent, but I will say like
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is symbiotic relationship, so that this is where the
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developmental model kind of kicks in for me because I start
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looking at things from the developmental perspective,
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Developmentally. Every relationship also go
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through the stages and just like the same stages that the child
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would go through, you know, as they grow developmental stages.
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So, when the couple is soaking, so, like, in mashed, and when
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one is using substances, right? And another one is just like,
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not using substances, but staying with it.
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There is there still something is happening where they prefer
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to act like one person versus Has two separate individuals.
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So being independent being separate, actually more
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threatening to that couple right then, you know, then being
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together. So they keep staying together
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because that feels more secure and that Securities of false
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security because it's security for a short period of time or
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for a short time or for the moment.
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But in the long run, there's a lot of loneliness happening
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people really missed each other. Not connecting, not being for
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each other or being in each other's life.
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And then the same time, not having a strong sense of self.
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Yeah, that they can like really hang onto like rely on to.
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So they keep coming back to that relationship because that's the
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only thing they know. Yeah.
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And I think a lot of times to it's what they it's the only
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thing they know it's what in and maybe they were in some sort of
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A Dysfunctional situation growing up and hey and that's
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comfortable to them, right? That that kind of a weird
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comfort. Zone.
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It's really uncomfortable but that's a known one.
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It's like a familiar. Yep.
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Yeah yeah. If I know what's familiar I know
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how to deal with that versus if I don't know what's familiar how
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can I deal with that? Right.
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But the same time I feel like they're there is this ability to
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imagine this isn't right? This could be better or this is
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not healthy for me but there's many voices going on in their
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mind the same time. So how do you how do you work
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with someone who's Ew. Negotiating to, I go left, or do
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I go right on this relationship? Do I say, in mashed and in this
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strange sense of, we're very close, but very lonely at the
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same time versus we could change and maybe be healthy people and
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have real Intimacy in recovery. Yeah, that's such a good
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question. And it comes often when people
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come, you know, to therapy. Mhm.
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It's It's or even that question themselves.
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Like, what did I do? I'm not happy here, but I, where
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do I go? So I think the one of the
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biggest thing is, what am I goals for myself, and who I am
15:09
in that relationship? And when people come to me, I
15:12
usually ask, like there is a, there's a goals for you as a
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couple and but there's also goals for you as a separate
15:20
individual. And if you want to grow as a
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couple, you have To grow also, as individual.
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Wow, you have to grow as individual, you cannot be in
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that relationship without that personal internal growth where I
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see myself as separate differentiated person, not in
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mashed with another person but like, I'm and I can, I can rely
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also on my ability to recognize my own feelings Marron, triggers
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Marron, whatever is my tone because like in It's in
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substance use, right? Like when there's an addiction
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in a family going on, there is love and attachment but not to
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the primary person. It's love and attachment to the
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drug of choice, right? There's a relationship there
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100%. There's no relationship with
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another person. And the question is, do I want
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to have that secure relationship with my partner with my parents,
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or with my children or I keep choosing that love affair that I
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have on the side. Wow.
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Yeah, yeah. Have you said so so much there.
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I guess that's like that's like an hour's worth.
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Yeah, of conversation right there.
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I just think I've worked with people who you ask them, what do
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you want in life and they shut down.
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They are they're terrified of that question.
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They feel shame that they don't know the answer to that.
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Simple question, but I go back and I review it them.
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Did you? Were you ever taught to have a
17:01
goal like we ever validated to have your own interests or
17:05
desires? And it turns out like know, I
17:08
was always supposed to be a straight, A student and be a
17:11
doctor or be this or that like my parents mapped out my whole
17:15
life for me and if I went outside of the box, I would get
17:21
yelled at where I would get rejected or I'll be told I was
17:23
stupid. So I think that can be like a
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really challenging starting point for people.
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All right. And and it makes intimacy seem
17:32
unattainable for people like oh like now you're telling me if
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unless I know what I want for myself, I can't have a healthy
17:37
relationship well and I'm I give up but so some people, it can
17:42
feel really overwhelming. So how do you how would you
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interact with the client who who is not responding?
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Well to this this, in my opinion, like a realistic and
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hopeful vision for the future to them?
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It's Reputed as almost impossible overwhelming
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assignment. Yeah, well that's by itself is
18:04
diagnostic. Just, just that kind of
18:07
vignette, right? You see like when There's two
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ways how developmental trauma, you know, can be imposed by
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caregivers by by parents two main ones one when the parent is
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so anxious. And so uncomfortable, for
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whatever reason, maybe for their own personal history, medical
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history, something is going on in the family and Central trauma
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ancestral drama trauma. The parents is so anxious, so
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they give the child, the message.
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The world is not okay, there's a danger in the world.
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It's dangerous to live out there and that's that can be traumatic
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when a child and the second way, the how parents can actually do
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that on a child is when the parent themselves overwhelmed
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again, for whatever reason, you know, mental health, you know,
19:05
medical something else going on the family, but they so
19:08
overwhelmed. So they kind of like Like pull
19:11
attention to themselves and they become needy, but the and they
19:15
push the child away where they say, you be, like, you cannot
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depend on me, like the, the unspoken message.
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You cannot depend on me. The child, grows up being in a
19:27
way kind of independent pseudo independent, but it's really Not
19:33
independency. They learn how to take care of
19:35
themselves. So by the time, they go to
19:38
college, if they go to college, right, By the time, the out of
19:42
the house, they so independent. So like I'm going to put that in
19:47
quotes Independence, right? So they don't need anybody, it's
19:52
actually very threatening to them if somebody wants to be
19:56
dependent on them because it just like same Dynamic, that was
19:59
in a childhood. So, when they are married, they
20:02
don't understand why the spouse wants connections and be closed
20:07
and tell and share things. Because for them, it's very
20:10
triggering. And so, and this is the two main
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reasons, right? Like how how people get insecure
20:18
attachment to with anxious and avoidant?
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Mhm, because of those developmental traumas earlier,
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early in the childhood. And it comes often times how
20:29
people cope with that. And one of the ways of coping is
20:32
substances, all kinds of substances and like the most
20:35
available is that this alcohol, right?
20:39
Basic. Can't be like.
20:41
You know, other compulsive behaviors other addictions, like
20:44
to certain behaviors. You know, we can be workaholism,
20:48
right? I'm coming home.
20:49
I'm bringing money and why you my partner?
20:52
My spouse is like, demanding from me.
20:54
Something like I am I not doing enough right?
20:57
Right, right. So just want to come home and
21:00
sit down on the couch and nobody bother me.
21:02
And I work and I should, you know, I should be able to do
21:04
that. I need.
21:05
Yeah. Because like this is like what?
21:07
It's a partnership, right? Right.
21:09
And, you know, you both kind of Have a role in that, especially
21:12
when you have kids. Exactly.
21:13
That's, so that's a tough one for sure.
21:16
It's a tough one. And what do we modeling for
21:18
children also? But if all of us is a lot of his
21:23
coming from attachment style, is, is it like your family is a
21:28
mold and you leave and you're forever, molded in that shape?
21:33
Or is it something that you can re sculpt?
21:36
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's the good thing,
21:38
right? About the, the neuroplasticity
21:40
it, And the secure attachment that it can be built.
21:44
It's like it's not forever. It requires work, it work,
21:48
internal work, you know on self but there's always we can
21:54
develop those secure attachments slowly and slowly you know, with
21:59
other people around us and we can develop like studying with
22:02
our animals, starting with me, co-workers and friends.
22:06
And like we can expand, we have examples, always, as of secure
22:10
attachment. And I think too like a lot of it
22:12
as well is it's and so dr. Hong does genogram with a lot of
22:18
our assessment clients or with all of our soul.
22:20
That's right. So he sits down for a few hours
22:22
and works through you. Have you done Gino G, I would
22:25
assume. Yep.
22:26
And and it's pretty eye-opening for them and I think so much of
22:30
it is just awareness, right? It's just the awareness and
22:32
understanding of like how we have these attachments and where
22:35
they're coming from and the family history and you know, and
22:38
when you start to kind of look at the generations back, Can the
22:41
genogram you're like, oh my gosh.
22:42
And like I had no idea but now this all makes sense, right?
22:46
Yeah, yeah. Totally totally yeah, kind of
22:50
Developmental stages there. Like if the child did not go
22:55
through certain developmental stage like for example, autonomy
22:59
like learning how to be autonomous and independent
23:01
studying each to write from H. Like, 18 months to 3 years old.
23:06
This is like the the first stage of when the child try to
23:09
differentiate and Select Me Myself and saying, for the first
23:13
time, no to parents. And if parents is overwhelmed or
23:16
scared or anxious, or like all kinds of things, right?
23:19
And push child saying no, you cannot say no to me.
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How dare you for a two year old kid, right?
23:24
They're not used to that. That is so like they can.
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They can overpower child at that time.
23:31
But then the second time, it comes during the teenage years
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when the differentiation comes with most with more strength
23:38
because it happens that the hormonal Changes to it's like
23:42
very natural. Very developmentally absolutely
23:45
appropriate to differentiate again, saying who I am now, like
23:49
I'm trying to understand what's my role in the world who what's
23:52
my identity? So when they develop that and
23:55
parent again, pushes, that that becomes dangerous even more.
24:00
And so, the, the child grows up like constantly having this.
24:05
Like, I can't, I can't, I have to like, look behind and look
24:08
like, is it, is it okay for me to speak up have Voice have a
24:12
opinion. Like oh do I need to even to
24:16
cope with whatever and overwhelming feelings?
24:18
I have and what kind of things are available for me to cope
24:22
with? Yeah, yeah.
24:26
Gina Grandma. We talk about its what always
24:29
surprises me is it usually begins with their clients
24:33
saying, I had a great family. It was, I couldn't have asked
24:39
for more things. Perfect, loving warm cuddly,
24:44
everything I could have wanted or needed like that is how
24:47
Stories We Tell ourselves. Right all comes back to yeah
24:51
there's this perception and the attachments that we kind of that
24:55
we just kind of present ourselves to right, right.
24:59
And and then we talked about well who what was this religion
25:04
of like oh there was a divorce here.
25:05
There's an infidelity there. Looks like there is a lot of
25:08
alcoholism across the family. What was it like, growing up in
25:13
that environment? And and then a word, like lonely
25:17
pops up and and I sense that there's there's a lot of Shame
25:22
about and they don't they don't want to be be real about it.
25:28
They feel embarrassed about it but then as we work through it,
25:32
they feel a sense of like Liberation.
25:35
Like finally a light has come on and like they see a path for
25:40
themselves. To not repeat like the pattern
25:43
that's been transmitted generation and generation but it
25:49
takes a lot of work. Like what you're saying, I said
25:52
to change your, you know. So a lot of times there's
25:54
there's an insecure anxious or of wooden or disorganized
25:57
attachment style across all those relationships and it's
26:01
just getting transmitted. But when they, when they come
26:04
here, they do the detox. They their mind is much clearer
26:09
and they're thinking straight. About, where do I want my life
26:13
to go? And that is like such a sacred
26:17
and spiritual moment of Hope and Ike.
26:20
It's so inspiring to see that happen.
26:24
I could gaining sense of self. Yes, yes.
26:27
Come to know like why and people are afraid to see themselves.
26:31
I think they come in here feeling, afraid to see
26:34
themselves, feeling, afraid to say what they really think, or
26:37
what they really feel about a relationship.
26:41
But they go through the detox that go through the restorative
26:45
therapies here and they suddenly have the energy to think about
26:49
things clearly. And honestly, and that's really
26:52
exciting. But there are people who they
26:56
want to leave here and they just want to jump back into life.
26:59
Like they think that they can make like a 180 effortlessly
27:05
just make going back to Jimmy life.
27:07
And yeah, I think it's They truly believe it and I'm not
27:12
there to say that they they're being like naive or or they're
27:16
making it bigger and Josh man. But I think what's cures for a
27:21
lot of people as they think that this can happen without making a
27:24
change in their relationship to alcohol.
27:27
Like, they think that my partner can keep using where I can keep
27:30
using and we can change our attachments so we can go back
27:34
into our history and my Approach is to be really curious, to be
27:39
honest. And I'm I'm curious about what
27:42
your experience is with that. Can people stay in their system
27:46
say in their addictions and so make progress my experience
27:52
actually. Unfortunately people cannot
27:54
really make any changes if they're not addressing it
27:57
action. Yeah.
27:58
It's like you can't have an affair with addiction thinking.
28:03
It's just it's really something small.
28:05
It's really not and sometimes it takes time for What a person to
28:12
come to that conclusion and it's very humbling actually
28:15
experienced tool to finally come to the conclusion.
28:18
Like I can't do it on my own. I need something I really need
28:23
to to work on that. I really need to claim my life
28:27
back. Because like the years like that
28:30
lost relationship that has been broken.
28:34
You know, career that has not been done, like it was so many
28:38
the time lost. Also respect that they had for
28:43
themselves lost. All I can get kind of gaining it
28:45
all back, earning it all back, takes time, it takes time.
28:50
And fortunately, there are resources out there, you know,
28:56
there are resources out there, but I also, I think, too, that
28:58
like, even in early recovery so much of it is like breaking that
29:03
identity because, like, I know for me, when I was first getting
29:08
sober, you know, my whole identity was like the Fun party.
29:11
Guy went to lots of concerts and like that was who I was, right?
29:15
And then all the sudden, I wasn't that person anymore
29:17
because I couldn't do that anymore.
29:19
Oh my gosh identity crisis. Who am I right?
29:23
And that's a scary thing. And and so just kind of think
29:26
like what is my life going to be?
29:27
Like if I can't be doing these things, which is essentially all
29:31
I did. And I think, you know, obviously
29:33
it's very scary, initially the reality is, you know, the world
29:37
is our oyster and life is so amazing and Covering.
29:42
It's just hard for us to see that at first, right?
29:44
Yeah. But you know, that's that's a
29:46
huge piece. I think, is making that
29:49
connection for people in early recovery and showing them.
29:52
Right. And we'll a lot of us live by
29:53
example, you know. And and you know, that's a big
29:56
thing. But it's a hard thing to wrap
29:59
your head around in those early days.
30:01
Yeah, for sure. But you you mentioned like you
30:04
so much on point about identity crisis because it absolutely
30:07
happens. Yeah, that identity crisis
30:10
happens. After getting sober and not
30:13
knowing what to do. I'm also thinking about like
30:17
neurobiologically what happens to that person, right?
30:19
Like the like how the neurotransmitters like really
30:23
asking for for intervenes and for for like serotonin and and
30:30
and I'm kind of blinking on the other one.
30:33
Dopamine. Right.
30:34
Because like, it's so much dopamine released and now you
30:38
not bringing anything for that. Hungry, dopamine.
30:41
And, yeah, give me something so that's, I'm very uncomfortable,
30:46
right? It's so uncomfortable.
30:48
So, yeah, having support helps that the person is not alone in
30:54
that. Yeah, absolutely.
30:57
Yeah. When irony about that, there is
31:01
the people who I know who are in sustained recovery.
31:06
Would say they are definitely now their true self and the
31:10
person they thought they were was not really them.
31:14
Yeah. Yeah.
31:15
And I mean, I almost see it as like act 1 and act to write.
31:18
And and you know, my previous life was You know that that was
31:24
I don't even remember that person really.
31:27
You know it's really wild you know looking back on that
31:30
because life is, you know, recovery is given me everything
31:33
and you know, my wife and family and kids and all these amazing
31:37
things and obviously a career and working in this field and
31:40
all that. But you know, yeah, in the
31:41
beginning, you know, there were definitely some days where you
31:44
know, what is this going to be like?
31:46
And so I think it's I think it's just interesting to you know
31:49
just think around that and you know, I love to talk a little A
31:53
bit more with you too because I know dr.
31:55
Hong always says this one. This one piece that I love that
31:57
he says where their substance use.
31:59
There's trauma, right? And you know I'd love to
32:03
obviously traumas, a real Buzz word these days in our field.
32:07
But obviously I think it's very, you know, it's very valid that
32:12
that, you know, were self-medicating, you know,
32:14
essentially and you know, we're using these substances for some
32:17
reason and a lot of times that's trauma, there's some underlying
32:21
issue that we haven't really identified.
32:23
That's kind of our goal, is to really figure out what that
32:25
thing is. But talk to us a little bit
32:26
about, you know, the trauma work that you do with your clients
32:30
and all that. Yeah, well absolutely, like with
32:33
substance abuse comes trauma, and sometimes trauma can be like
32:38
primary and substance abuse becomes like the substance use
32:42
become like a coping mechanism and the symptom of that trauma.
32:46
Personally, sometimes people actually have already, they
32:51
develop addiction because of Of, you know, mental health, you
32:56
know, or something happened earlier, let's see, genetics to
33:03
write like those genetics play, and then trauma happens, while
33:06
they using substances. So, like it's just constantly
33:09
all around whether it's a secondary or, it's a primary,
33:12
but the trauma will happen. Yeah.
33:14
In in person's life. So but without addressing
33:21
substance use, it will be It hard to address trauma, right?
33:25
Because person has to get first to the place of sobriety.
33:30
Like, that's the difficult part that sometimes people because
33:36
that that substance help them to survive 100%.
33:39
Yes, how can I, how can I let it go if I survived because of
33:44
using whatever it is whether it's alcohol or opiates or
33:48
cocaine, whatever like I survived because I had that if I
33:52
wouldn't had that, How can I survive?
33:54
So like this is how like, what I, what I started doing is
34:00
working on differentiation from that, like learning that you are
34:03
not that trauma. You are not the the substance
34:07
that you using like, finding who I am, like deeply down.
34:12
And yes, like the the part of self-regulation comes in.
34:15
Mindfulness comes in spirituality, comes in, like
34:18
learning how to take care of the body, how to take care of self.
34:23
How to take care of like the thought process?
34:26
The Mind where the Mind goes, like, where I'm focusing.
34:29
What I'm what? I'm channeling my energy because
34:32
where my energy goes, this is like, where my fault goes, this
34:35
is what I will be good and that doing, yeah.
34:38
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I think people, they reaction
34:42
initially very strongly to the proposition that maybe you've
34:46
experienced trauma. And, and they're like, how dare
34:50
you write? Like how dare you accuse, my
34:52
parents of being abusive, you know, my parents were leaders in
34:56
the community. My parents would never do
34:59
something that, you know, like, beat me or do something horrible
35:03
to me. Like, that's not my parents and,
35:07
and then I say yes, like that is, that's how we ordinarily
35:10
talk about drama like, trauma is Criminal Behavior, but just
35:13
because it's not criminal Behavior doesn't mean it was was
35:18
not trauma. I see because like I think it's
35:21
how people Define what trauma is.
35:22
And when they think drama, they think about the war war type
35:26
trauma, like they saw something atrocious, right?
35:29
Like a murderer or something like horrible by trauma can be.
35:33
So so not necessarily that kind of scary because Russia's thing,
35:39
but for a child, let's say, right?
35:41
I'm talking about the child. In this case, trauma can be
35:44
parents forgot to pick to pick me from daycare, Yeah, or left
35:50
me at the gas station when they were getting gas and everybody
35:53
got in the car and drove away and then they like forgot.
35:56
Like I do remember, oh there's one child is missing, let's go
35:59
back or it could just be someone, someone said something
36:02
to you in a way that maybe it wouldn't have been traumatic to
36:05
one person, but the way that it was sent to you in that time, in
36:08
that moment you took that internal in you uncertainties
36:11
that is that traumatic. What, exactly.
36:13
So we so complex like the our brain and I will like system.
36:17
So complex and just saying, It's only one way you can get drama
36:20
and there's no way you can get it done another way or because
36:23
your parents are perfect and it's actually no perfect
36:25
parents. And let's talk about like you,
36:28
you don't have, you don't have to have trauma.
36:31
It's it's also understanding that how I respond to things
36:35
like, what am I consent has been taken away when I was trying to
36:39
say something and I couldn't have my consent.
36:42
So all this things, they really not really little.
36:45
And at the moment they feel little for somebody, they look
36:48
little. Somebody actually can say, oh,
36:50
this is small thing to cry about.
36:53
Why would you cry about it? This is so small.
36:55
Stop it. And they're like, oops, I'm not.
36:58
I'm not supposed to, yeah. And they're like, meanwhile,
37:03
that's it's the core memory that creates all this dysfunction in
37:06
their relationship. Yeah, right.
37:08
We're like that. The partner is working too much,
37:11
drinking too much and they have to be quiet about it because
37:14
they just feel like it's they're not committing a crime against
37:18
me, I should yeah. Why should I cry about it?
37:20
Yeah, but that, that makes that Intimacy in that relationship,
37:23
which they both want, definitely unattainable.
37:26
Yeah, we'll definitely effect relationship.
37:31
Yeah, what's making me very another.
37:34
I'm just thinking about my kids and all that right now and it's
37:36
making the terrified as a parent.
37:38
You guys. For reading your messages, your
37:40
kids, no, perfect parent, there's no perfect.
37:46
So that means that we're not perfect parent.
37:49
But there's also not perfect children.
37:50
Yeah, yeah. I think that's a, that's a great
37:52
point there. And I think that's part of how I
37:55
deescalate the defensiveness the walls that just shoot up.
38:00
When I talk about the t word is, I say, I believe your parents
38:06
were doing their absolute best. I don't believe your parents are
38:10
monsters. They're not evil malicious
38:13
people. They were doing their best, but
38:16
their best. Might not have been what you
38:19
needed. Yeah.
38:22
And then, okay, now we can talk about things as that, you know,
38:25
trauma is when you didn't get what you needed, or you got
38:29
something you really didn't need, right?
38:33
Like, so, do your point like we were talking about, we were
38:36
assigned a client, and he told me the story made me, I thought
38:40
about it. I cried after I went home from
38:43
work, he was Using was seven years old and his parents were
38:48
both heavy user of alcohol and they loved drinking and having
38:52
fun. To the neglect of their children
38:55
and he was seven years old and he was starving his baby
38:58
brother, they're both hungry, but they were terrified to ask
39:01
their parents to make dinner. So he his home had a dirt track
39:07
one around it because when he got anxious and didn't know what
39:10
to do, he would go outside and just walk circles around the
39:13
house. And I just think about my young
39:16
children, I can't even imagine what it's like to walk around
39:20
the house and acting out. Eddie and he never thought about
39:25
that as a trauma. Wow, that's some powerful.
39:30
But when I told him, I told him I heard that story I cried and
39:34
he was, he was like oh maybe that maybe there was something
39:38
wrong and how that happened at that moment, probably that
39:42
person made some kind of a decision.
39:44
Some early decision when he decided about life, what life is
39:51
Right. And what and who he is and that
39:53
life and how to protect himself. He did make a choice and and it
40:01
didn't go on to be functional for him.
40:04
Yeah, but he did. What you needed to do to survive
40:08
to survive the childhood. That's so important.
40:10
What you saying? But like those early decisions
40:13
they help to survive. And in that moment, they're the
40:16
most important thing that we could have done in that
40:19
situation given the circumstances.
40:21
But later on those decisions, like keep using those decisions
40:25
are not helpful anymore. So like has Kind of asking
40:30
yourself do I need to keep that decision?
40:32
Keep that like what I like early decision I made when I was like
40:36
7, 8, 10 years old or I'm grown now enough.
40:40
So I can change that decision and have another decision
40:43
because I can I can change it. I can make up different mind
40:47
about it. Yeah.
40:49
Then getting the fatah me back. So moving on to another
41:01
question. So knowing what, you know, now
41:03
what would you like to share with your younger self just
41:06
starting out? Probably just so I can relax.
41:16
Relax, we've a little bit. Yeah, it was a lot of worry and
41:25
anxiety. Will they make it?
41:26
Will I make it? Well, I will.
41:28
I also get it across When you ask that question, why you
41:36
asking me as a person? I asked me as a therapist.
41:40
The question I'm asking you as a therapist, okay, as a therapist
41:44
probably I would say something like, I didn't create it.
41:49
I have no control over it. Whatever problem problem,
41:55
brought to me because this is how I used to take it.
41:57
I used to take it, like, I have to fix it.
41:59
I have to fix it. I have to do something about
42:02
that. I would sleep.
42:03
I would lose sleep about thinking about a patient, even
42:07
though I knew it's not supposed to be that way.
42:10
I would think a lot, we don't get into this work because we
42:14
don't care. Exactly, right.
42:16
So it's hard to differentiate that a lot of times, right?
42:20
You know, and you know obviously the trying to leave your work at
42:22
work and you know in what we do specifically I mean it's really
42:26
24/7, you know, we're getting calls you know the time in the
42:29
middle of the night and all of that.
42:31
So finding that that balance can be tough unless you you got to
42:37
really work at it. Yeah.
42:39
And and That's essential because obviously burnout is a very real
42:42
thing in this field so to protect ourselves.
42:45
So so how can how can professionals or families, or
42:51
how can anybody find find you or, you know, locate your
42:55
services or anything like that and you have a website?
42:57
Correct. I do have a website.
42:59
It's art of wellness and si.com. I'm in Chapel Hill, North
43:03
Carolina and yeah, everything is on my website.
43:06
I see families and couples and I'm doing a lot of Of these days
43:10
like couples workshops and premarital pre relationship
43:14
early relationship. Early, like, early in
43:17
relationship workshops, how often are you doing these
43:19
workshops? Is that a monthly thing?
43:21
Or so right now, I'm doing quarterly, but I'm planning to
43:26
do it more often. Okay, great.
43:27
And that's that's it. Sounds like relationship.
43:30
Focus relationship, Focus. Yes.
43:33
Yeah. Like, how can we start from the
43:37
databases like and then the better.
43:39
Foundation. Or if can we actually develop a
43:43
solid foundation? Now, right?
43:45
While we are like early in our relationship, and I think that's
43:48
huge and I know my wife and I, we did therapy before we got
43:52
married and you know, we definitely did a lot of couples
43:55
work before we even really embarked that a lot of those
43:58
relationships. So it's really important.
43:59
Obviously, before you, you know, you're essentially signing this
44:02
contract with this person for the rest of you life rights to
44:07
really, make sure that you guys are on the same page.
44:09
Page and and listen that Ebbs and flows and changes and
44:13
throughout your relationship. But you know, I think at the
44:16
core of it, if you kind of still have the same values and and
44:19
love for each other works out so you have anything doc.
44:25
Yeah. Thank you for being here.
44:27
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
44:29
Yeah. Thank you so much.
44:31
And and we will absolutely will put all your information on the
44:34
website so people can find you and locate your website but
44:38
really you coming down having a discussion with us today.
44:40
Yeah, me too. Thank you for inviting.
44:43
Thanks Sarah.