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This is CITAP: Accelerating transmission permitting | Factor This Policycast · Factor This

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think the average citizen thinks about the federal government as one entity.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you the turf wars and everything between all these agencies are real in terms of who has authority, who has that information, who has the subject matter expertise.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Building transmission is really difficult.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: And now in the first project that we're looking at that kind of went through this process, it's it met it in its fastest ever time over two years, just by purely just having better coordination.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: In April 2024, the U.S.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Department of Energy announced a final permitting reform rule to streamline the authorization process for large electric transmission projects without sacrificing environmental reviews.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: The Coordinated Interagency Transmission Authorizations and Permits, or CITAP program, leverages the Federal Power Act to establish the DOE as a coordinating entity between federal agencies and relevant state and local leaders who are responsible for permitting decisions necessary to cite large transmission lines.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: CITAP sets a binding two-year schedule for a process that historically takes four years or longer.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: It also requires developers to submit a comprehensive public participation plan that ensures that communities and key stakeholders are included in the permitting process.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: By acting as the lead agency, DOE aims to reduce duplication of effort that would otherwise be expended across several distinct agencies, processes, and procedures.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: And ultimately, by enabling faster build-out of new electric transmission infrastructure, CITAP promises to increase access to diverse energy sources, reduce transmission congestion and electricity prices, and deliver reliable, affordable power to consumers when and where they need it.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, more than two years have passed since that final rule was issued, so what's up with the first wave of streamlined transmission projects?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: On this episode of the Factor This Policy Cast, the latest in a series presented in partnership with National Business Association Advanced Energy United, we'll explore that question.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Factor This Content Director Paul Gurkey, and I'll be joined on the program by Managing Director Dylan Reid of Advanced Energy United and Ashley Kang, Senior Director of External Affairs and Communications for Transmission Developer Grid United.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: They'll dive into the details of the CITAP program and share why community engagement plays such a critical role.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: They'll discuss the value of grid-to-grid projects and why they're so tricky to build, and highlight the early fruits of the Fed's efforts, including the North Plains Connector Project, which just broke a record for the fastest turnaround of an environmental impact statement.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Let's start by introducing our audience to the voices you'll be listening to that aren't mine.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Dylan, you're making your second appearance on the policy cast.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad we didn't scare you away.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for coming back.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Can you tell the people what you're all about?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's my my second time, but first time on video.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my first time was uh was just audio from the the shores of Mackinac Island uh and doing this.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Happy to be able to see you.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know what?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: We're everywhere.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: We we gotta we gotta let people know.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Dylan Ria, managing director for political and federal affairs.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: So uh oversee uh United's uh federal engagement overall, but for the purposes of today's conversation, not just from that role, but also my previous role as uh senior advisor for external affairs at the Department of Energy in the office that rolled out uh uh this program that we are talking today in uh CyTap.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So uh looking forward to the conversation.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and I know our audience has heard from plenty of my colleagues from United.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: So excited uh to have Ashley here today uh to talk about Grid United and their great work.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: And we're united and united, Advanced Energy United and Grid United.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: Ashley, thank you so much for joining the show.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us a bit about yourself and what you guys are working on these days.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Paul.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Dylan, for inviting me on.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Grid United is, as you said, a transmission development company.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: We do interregional transmission development uh of high voltage transmission projects around the country.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: So specifically, as the name says, we are here to unite the grids, grid united.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: What grids are we talking about here?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: The eastern and western interconnections.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: I often describe the US as having three electrical islands because there's very, very little uh connections between the islands themselves, the interconnections.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: You have the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which is about I'd say 80%-ish up Texas.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So where I'm currently located in Grid United's headquarters in Houston, that's the Texas grid.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Just north of us in the woodlands, which several of my colleagues live up there.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's about an hour north, that's the eastern grid.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then out to the west, El Paso is the western grid.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So Texas actually touches all three grids.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: But if you think about the nation as a whole, the lower 48, and do kind of a line between Montana, North Dakota, Colorado, Kansas, all the way down to El Paso.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you just drew that line, that would be the division between west and east.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's currently about 1.32 gigawatts of transfer capability, meaning the ability to move power between the grids, but the technology has been around for a long time and it's quite old and dated.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: So Grid United's projects are modern high voltage direct current.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: You'll hear the acronym HVDC, voltage source converter technology that would be able to move, or these lines would use that technology to move the power bidirectionally between the grids.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we currently have about five or six projects that your viewers can or listeners can look at on our website, gridunited.com slash projects, I think is the right location for them.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And uh you'll see that they range everywhere from Montana, North Dakota, Colorado, Oklahoma, within the state of Wyoming, and down to uh Texas and southeastern New Mexico.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell The stuff that you guys do over at Grid United, these are really complex projects.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: They it's a ton of capital, it's a ton of time.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: There's a massive need for community engagement because we're talking about big, big uh infrastructure that's running across uh people's backyards more or less.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so these things are really tricky to do, which makes SciTap such a useful tool because we don't have to worry about uh coordinating so many disparate agencies.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk a little bit more about that program specifically.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: Ashley, what's your experience been like with it?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: And Dylan, if you want to kind of zoom out a little bit and tell us what the feds are really trying to do with this program and where it stands right now, I think that would be really useful.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: I could just start with how I describe the work that Grid United is doing.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: These transmission lines that we're developing are massive, massive infrastructure projects.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: They span hundreds of miles across usually more than one state.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: You're dealing with multiple jurisdictions.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And also at the federal level, you have many, many agencies to coordinate with.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And typically developers would have to do this on their own, go to every local county, state, federal agency.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you've heard the federal government is kind of a large entity to navigate.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we'd have to go to all of them and figure out on our own timing, like, hey, can we get this permit?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you hit that approval.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that takes time.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: That takes time, investment, and patience.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you might wonder why don't we have many interregional transmission lines in this country, particularly of the high voltage direct current technology.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of timing and frustration and stalling, that is that is one of the pin the pinch points for sure.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's why the projects tend to take like decades to do.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, our project, North Plains Connector, which we'll get to, but just a sneak preview, as you mentioned earlier, Paul, that project got to be a pilot for the coordinated interagency transmission authorization and permits program.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the proof is in the result that the program worked.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: In less than two years and 22 months, we have arrived at a final environmental impact statement and expect that a record of decision club decision will come in the very near term, like within a month or so, um, on the project.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a big deal.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's a project that is 420 some odd miles across Montana and in North Dakota.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: The project terminates in southeastern Montana in a town called Colstrip.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: It goes east about three in through three counties, Fallon, Custer, and Rosebud counties into North Dakota across the six counties of Golden Valley, Head Slope, Haddinger, Oliver, Morton, Grant.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I'm missing one there.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: But they it terminates in the center in North Dakota on the in the eastern point.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a lot to go through.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: You have to get conditional use permits, you have to get through the counties, you have to get um township approvals, um, approvals from the U.S.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Fish and Wildlife.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And to do all of that in less than two years, that's really credit to the Department of Energy's leadership, because as the program states, they are the lead entity.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: They are the coordinating entity of the interagencies for transmission authorizations and permits.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what DOE's job is in this program, and they did it just absolutely beautifully.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: Dylan, can you tell me a little bit more about how the feds uh tend to use those exact tools for other projects now that we've got the North Plains connector sort of down as a pilot?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think the the challenge is when we were looking at this a number of years ago, and and I was saying I was I was one person as a part of a much larger team as a as a part of this.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: So uh for those that were also a part of uh of my office and the office of general counsel who may be listening to this, if I get something wrong, uh apologies.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I I'd say the the way that we looked at it is building transmission is really difficult.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we know that you know there's there's kind of the the the three Ps I think people talk about in terms of uh permitting, planning, and paying for it uh when it comes to that.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Where we were looking at um opportunities at the time is the Department of Energy certainly had new authorities uh for the financial aspect of it, whether through grants, loans, or general commercial facilitation, which Grid United is is also familiar with with those tools uh and working with DOE as well.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's obviously the planning element that's very important, and DOE has authorities for getting good information around where do we need to build transmission and at what scale uh for where that's at.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: But then we were looking at the permitting authorities as well.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we we can certainly talk about the need for Congress to pass more comprehensive permitting reform uh and and including transmission as a part of that.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: But this was to say what are the existing authorities that we have that we could be using as a part of this?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And this was an authority that it kind of sat dormant for over a decade, uh, that was there and just wasn't used.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so it said DOE could be the lead agency when it comes to these big projects as a part of that.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And absent any action on that, essentially what you're saying is that all of the agencies that were uh potentially involved as a part of that of for Grid United, they would have had to go to Department of Energy, Environmental Protection Agency, Department of Commerce, Department of Defense, like all of these, and and all told uh where we were able to get agreement originally from a memorandum of understanding into a final regulation was to get agreement around and believe these 13 different offices.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Ashley said, like, well, when people think of the federal government, that was eye-opening for me of when I was working in the federal government, is I think the average citizen thinks about the federal government as one entity.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you the turf wars and everything between all these agencies are real in terms of who has authority, who has that information, who has the subject matter expertise on where that's going.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, for companies that were coming in, you know, you could reach out to one agency and they say, here's the information we need, and you go and get that.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then you go to, you know, a different agency, okay, here's the information.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, now I gotta go get that.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And by the time you got information for one agency, it might be out of date by the time we go to the next.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then that, you know, you're ping-ponging back and forth, and that's where you can see some of these timelines.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Where I believe in your intro, you you said on average it took about four years for permits to go through.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: But there's plenty of stories where it took over a decade because of that ping-ponging effect on where that's going.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And now on the first project that we're looking at that kind of went through this process, it's it met it in its fastest ever time on the two years, just by by purely just having better coordination.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: It has nothing to do with changing, you know, environmental review or or how we're going, um, you know, the rules that need to be followed.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: It just had to be a better coordinating process as a part of that.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so that single lady, single lead agency as DOE.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then also, you know, the stick of there's a two-year deadline here that if you don't hit it, Grid United was well within their rights uh under the law to say we're going to appeal directly to the president where we could get a permit as a part of this.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and that's that's important too.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I it it's at the time when we were releasing this, um, you know, I can remember doing press around this that, you know, you're talking about coordinating permitting documents faster inside the government.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's a little bit of a wonky and perhaps boring topic to talk about.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: But when we're talking about why don't we build things in this country, I think everyone can kind of understand the fact of like slowness and uh and lack of coordination inside the federal government.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: People can understand that concept.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: And by taking a much more uh targeted approach to that coordination, we were able to get those results uh within within this this first project coming through.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if the listeners picked up on it or not, but you snuck that in there that you were with DOE at the time that this program was launched.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: So you had a say in what name it it got, right, Dylan?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you you loved SciTap.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: That was the one you wanted to go with?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is uh forgive me uh for for going down on this.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know we talked about this in in prep as a part of this, is that uh sci tap is is where we're at.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've heard four different pronunciations as a part of it.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Me personally, I was always on uh uh on on Team Site app because we are citing projects and you are going to send an application.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like that.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh was an easy way to remember that, but apparently not, uh, because I hear all of these different things and and I've talked with Ashley about the challenges um in uh getting people to recognize what this program is and and how we're gonna do it.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know uh everyone loves a government acronym.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my my fiance uh would say to me uh on on work from home days that uh I could be talking state secrets and she would have no idea what I was talking about because of all the acronyms that I would speak in.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I will say uh that I think I had mentioned this maybe in in one panel I had spoken on.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: But uh one of the names, if we if we can wind the clock back uh two and a half years now from when this this came out, Paul.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not I'm not sure if you're familiar with this this new artist.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh she's uh from where I grew up in in Pennsylvania, Taylor Swift.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've heard I've heard her name kicked around once or twice.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: There was this.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Big Kansas City Chiefs fan or something.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Something like that.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: She was an Eagles fan, point of order.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: But uh but at the time the Eros Tour uh was going on uh for that, and we had thought uh that a really good name for this was Streamlining Work in Federal Transmission, the Swift program.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: The SWIFT program, T Swift program.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's really good.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: That well, that was a name that was discussed uh as a part of it, and through internal conversations, this was a little bit of uh perhaps the federal government didn't want to step out too far.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, uh is that you know, is that is that going too far out and a little too, you know, pop culturally for the federal government on on a permitting uh program?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was shelved.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but I but I will say that that was that was the vote I had in and trying to move that forward forward.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we we could be talking about the t Swift program today on this.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Ashley, would you prefer we're talking about the T Swift program?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because from my perspective, that sounds way better.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's a fantastic program, but the tSwift program would certainly help with uh the branding aspect and maybe even encourage more folks to enter the portal, which I'm I hopefully by the end of this this podcast, uh more developers will enter the scietap portal.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: We will make sure to link the sci tap portal on this post as well to encourage uh that.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: No links to Taylor Swift stuff, although that would be that would be great.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I mean she uses a lot of like.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love that ProMusic.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: I can't afford that.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: The the budget for this program is not such that we can send kickbacks to Taylor Swift for use of her IP, but uh at the original.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: So any to any DOE colleagues listening as a as a part of this, uh I certainly don't know if you have to issue a whole new uh federal regulation to change a name, but uh if power of the pen is out there, uh here's my formal pitch uh to uh to seeing if we need a name change here to to increase awareness.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell I think that's slick.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think not to go too far off on a tangent, but we could rename a bunch of these large transmission projects uh for local artists.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Imagine the Prince project up in Minnesota and how much support that would get.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Just got to find a way to make that work.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm all in on it.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm taking notes, by the way.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: I am taking notes on all of these ideas.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Grid United is going to come up with some very, very modern pop culture relevant, localized transmission project names.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Just to wait.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's what the show is.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: We bill it to be an educational conversation about grid-related topics, but really it's a brainstorming session with some of the sharpest minds in the industry to sell t-shirts.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's all we're trying to do at the end of the day is move merch.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: I would I would definitely get a T Swift uh uh government uh t-shirt on just processing permits faster.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I would too.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um anyway.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: A big part of of Taylor Swift's success, uh, to tie it directly into the the way this conversation was headed, is that she's great with her fans.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: You might call that community engagement, also an integral part of the sci-ap process.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mentioned it in the intro.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Both of you have kind of brushed up against it, but getting people on board with these large transmission projects is often the toughest part.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: Ashley, we haven't heard from you um in a minute since I've been ribbing on Dylan.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Can you talk a little bit about what Grid United and their on-the-ground process is like for starting these projects and then making sure they get carried across the finish line and why that engagement is so crucial?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: I call it our IP.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's our our secret stuff.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So uh your listeners should really listen carefully here.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's very secret stuff that we're I'm about to reveal.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: We start with rather than coming up with the idea in the office of like we're going to connect these points and then go to the regulators and get our lawyers and and the policymakers all on board and head to DC and do all of that stuff there.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: We go to the communities first.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: We actually go to the landowners and we literally go door-to-door knocking and say, Hey, we have this idea for a project.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Could we look around in your backyard to see if it'll work?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because we don't know.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're here in our office and we have an idea, maybe it'll work.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you actually go out and they land and see, oh no, there's like a rare species nest there, or there's a cultural site there from a tribal nation.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: We can't see that from our fancy Google Maps called GIS here in in in Houston.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we go door to door knocking, and this project, North Plains Connector, is 420 miles.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: So across that 420 miles, we get permission from all of the landowners from between Colstrip and Center North Dakota.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: That can be so many.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: How many?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Dozens, hundreds, even?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hundreds.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, almost a thousand, really.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's 800 and some odd landowners that we've gotten permission from.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And some landowners say, usually they're like, yeah, that sounds interesting.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, go on back, take a look.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and some landowners say, that's interesting, but like I work, I ranch on this part of my land.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I use it right now.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, can you not look over there?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Look over there, please.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so we go and walk around in another area of the land.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Some landowners say, that sounds like a cool project, but I'd rather not be part of it.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: But thanks for asking.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so we just route around them and we do that across the span of the project.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: What that means though is when a landowner says, Yeah, go ahead, take a look on back.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: We it's not just my colleagues going out into the field, but it's all of the folks that could have uh an impact with the land.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be your environmental scientists, your traffic.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Tribal cultural specialists, your tribal historic preservation officers, the biologists, the aviologists, the paleontologists, the archaeologists.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: I call them theologists.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: They all go back, and there's hundreds of them that survey the land and literally walk the miles every year to see if the land is suitable for us to build on and what kind of soil there is too.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Note I said soil and not dirt.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Our engineers would say that it's soil.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: But that is the work that happens year after year after year.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we've done four years of that.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you collect data, and the data informs the project.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: It informs is this a good place to put the structures, the structures being the towers.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is this a good place to have a construction project?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that informs what we can put into the reports for permit approvals and reviews, et cetera, for environmental, what ultimately comes out as an environmental impact statement.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: We do that work, so starting with the communities, and with that, we also have a community investment program that we partner with the state community foundations to set up in each of the counties that our projects would go through.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And each of those counties has its own advisory committee, and they're made up of local community members who review applications and then determine what grants would improve their communities.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not Ashley and friends here in Houston seeing, like, oh, what would work well for Rosebud County community members in Rosebud County, Montana?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: It is the people of Rosebud determining what is best for Rosebud and so on and so forth across the project.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that goes on from this moment that we enter a community before we have gotten a permit in hand, before we've gotten any landowners' permission to even be in their backyards.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we we set up these community investment programs.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we do that in conjunction with surveying the land.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so all of this stakeholder first approach work that we do, the approach to development, marries very well with the coordinated interagency transmission authorization permits program, because that really, really enforces stakeholder engagement early on, early and frequently.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the Grid United approach to development.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we come into the portal, the the portal, it's a website, with all of these years of with a couple of years of this stakeholder work with a lot of community buy-in.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we have an incredible, incredible community of landowners for North Plains Connector.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um there are there are these landowners' dinners that we do every year, a couple of times a year, that brings the landowner community together.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: We have community public information breakfasts that are held across the project in each of the counties.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, should I just take it out?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Do you need, is it like, how do we get this going?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so to have that really community-driven encouragement and engagement for the project, for a project that's so massive and is going to really just completely transform the electrical system in terms of the ability to move power between east and west of the US.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then this is a three gigawatt project.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I mentioned that.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: That is more than double or triple the existing ability to move power between east and west.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't think we have time to go into all the benefits of HVDC voltage source converter technology, but maybe on your next episode we can dive deep there because that's like I call it a wellness shot for the grid.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: The tech is incredible.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yes, so our approach to development marries very well with SideTap.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: We start first with the landowners and the communities, and it is, it is on um, it is their world that we're entering in.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: They their world has an and uh existed far longer than um we have been there.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: We they existed before we arrived and they're gonna exist throughout the project.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna exist long after the project's up and running.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really their permission that we ask for before um doing anything federal.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: So sorry, Dylan, uh you guys are not the first to find out about the project.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would say that um some of uh some of the federal ideas uh that get taken uh are not um uh drawn up in a conference room inside uh the Forrest Hall building uh on Independence Avenue in Washington, DC, but are taken from real life experiences as a part of this.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, part of uh what was included in in this program overall um was requiring that you were going to do community engagement um as a part of this.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: That if you know if you want to go through this and get your your expedited timeline of two years as a part of this, like we want to see what you're doing with with communities as a part of this.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um because um, you know, everything that you just talked about, um I don't think always happens as a part of that.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can show up and say, I want to put this huge transmission tower in your backyard, and people are gonna be like, What is this?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you doing this?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: You never told me about this.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and a transmission project that may be vital to that region or the country writ large may not happen because the proper engagement wasn't done as a part of that.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: And even and once you lose that trust, Ashley can attest to that much more than I can.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's so hard, you know, to to go back to to put the toothpaste back in.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you've lost that trust, why, even if you're gonna move it a mile out of the way that the community may have been okay with in the first place, they might say, like, well, we just don't like this project, we don't like your company, get out of here.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to see this.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that and now we've lost the project overall.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that upfront community engagement, a requirement of this program, or just good business practices by by Grid United is is clear.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, this this is a different project, um, but one that I'm I'm familiar with as well is um the Southline project um that Grid United is is building throughout Arizona into New Mexico.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I believe I I haven't kept track on it recently, but I believe eventually going to El Paso on where we're going.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: See, I I remembered.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but but we did um uh the Department of Energy actually put out a video highlighting the value of community engagement um in transmission and highlighting the South Line project as a good of this.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I I believe it was uh one of the landowners you worked with there, Edna, uh who was a delight uh to speak with.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: But but we asked her basically like, what would have happened uh if some if the you know company just showed up and said we want to use your land and didn't do any of this?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and and the chuckle she got like, no, I don't think that would have worked.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: But she was there able to go on camera and say, no, I I believe in this.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: They did this the right way.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have all of this land, but but it would it didn't didn't bother us at all.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like we went about this the right way, um, is is a testament to what good community engagement can look like to actually build uh transmission.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was Edna, she's iconic.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: She's Edna was great.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Iconic.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: I met her and I think I was starstruck when I saw her, and she was like, wow, you I'm I was like, wow, I can find you online, look where you are.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, you guys are talking about you know Edna?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Who doesn't know Edna knows Eddie?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I another so it it works both ways.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't just sit and use and and twiddle my thumbs on the computer.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's we we are very much about bringing the office team into the field.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we all have to go see where it is that we're trying to develop and understand the communities in which we are entering and and and developing these projects.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so it is um it is really, really important part of our work that we understand that.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, I know several of our landowners and I have been to uh all of the project areas.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Shout out to Edna if she's listening to this.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: We appreciate you and all the other landowners involved in these projects.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta great, I gotta reach out for two kite strings before the kites fly away.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: One, um, Ashley, you mentioned wellness shot for the grid as uh a tagline for HVDC.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I I I would I'm gonna take you up on the future episode if you want to come and talk about um how great um modern modern equipment is for the grid, to put it simply.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um I also want to mention you you you just drop this in casually, grab a shovel out of the barn and help.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we're underestimating how much the farming community might be able to help with transmission projects.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we should just be giving all these farmers shovels and saying, hey, we can get these things done faster.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um I do have another question for you, Ashley, about compensation for that group, because uh it's not something that's like we talk about a lot, um, but we often talk about community engagement, but it stops before we talk about what the landowners get on the backside.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: A nice dinner put together by your team is one thing, but what are the compensation structures like for someone who says, you know what, this works for me, go ahead and use my land.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: And conversely, what happens if too many people say no and you can't find a way to route a line?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: On the compensation piece, so with our community investment program, we thought very long and hard about what is the right amount of money to put into a community.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and one thing we thought about is that if you give a community of like two or three thousand people five million dollars, just give them a five million dollar check or a million dollar check.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: There is not necessarily the infrastructure to process that money efficiently and effectively.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it creates a lot of bureaucratic hurdles to get through just to deploy the funds.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: So one of our goals with the community investment program was to have a number that communities could use efficiently, effectively, and it would do things that improved society.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, it could be a$10,000,$20,000 award for replacing the roof of a history museum in the town of Baker, Montana.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um it could be a funds to support the equipment for the fire department in Amadon, North Dakota.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: It it could be any variety of things, but the idea is they can use the money now.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: They can go buy um child seats for to new parents uh leaving a hospital, um, safety child seats.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that was really the leading thinking for how we figured out compensation structure for the community investment program.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of the landowner agreements, those are those are diverse.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: So some landowners want to just negotiate one-on-one.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Other landowners want to join a group and all negotiate as a whole and have the attorneys kind of speak for them.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Other landowners want to kind of wait and see like how does this go, like learn more, et cetera.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: And some landowners will look at the uh the agreement, the the legal agreement for the easement or the option, and they will say, you know, I think this could be different.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like they'll mark it up in pen.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: They will take a literally a pen, write up the document, rewrite by hand, and say, this is the agreement I think we should do.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it really is a partnership in that way.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um every we work very flexibly with landowners.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: We value the land greatly.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: We think the land is necessary in order to be able to develop these projects.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that definitely is a factor into compensation for sure.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: And these big projects provide so much value to the communities that they're in.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: I know Dylan mentioned this a minute ago.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: There was actually a study that just came out recently prepared by Sarah Consulting, uh, the consulting arm of SP Global.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: It was commissioned by National Grid, the ECA, and Converged Strategies, and it took a look at the consumer value of interregional transmission, and it found that interregional transmission, when combined with robust regional transmission, provides the greatest value of any sort of solutions you could concoct.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Consumer savings reaching more than$15 billion until 2050.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's two to three times higher than any scenario that doesn't involve those interregional connections.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: Ashley and Dillon, those projects are often so tricky, though.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, they provide the most value, but having to negotiate with all those different stakeholders, if you're not using the CITAT program, is uh is very tricky to do.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: North Plains Connector, you've heard the name mentioned a couple of times on the program already, Grid United's um endeavor that Ashley had mentioned um and I brought up in the intro.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get into that a little more and how that provides the same value that that study is referencing.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: And um let's talk a little bit about the speed uh to which that we've gotten this project uh where it is today.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Why why do we do interregional transmission projects?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we focusing on these grid-to-grid connections?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: What we have found is that the more different that two regions are, the better the connection is, or so the stronger the impact of the connection.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have opposite regions, they will have opposite experiences, whether it is a weather event that is happening in the Mid East or in the and not happening in the West.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: So this could be, for example, Winterstorm Fern earlier this year in January.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: There was this big cold snap.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if everyone knows the name of it, but it was Winterstorm Fern.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the northern plains and upper Midwest area of their country and the eastern part of the country, and even as far as to the Atlantic, those prices were really, really high because there was power scarcity and there was a need for more power to accommodate the weather event in the West.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's really kind of a division.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing how the divide is, but in the West, the Western interconnection, prices were kind of moderate and normal because they weren't experiencing the same event, which meant that they had excess power that could have been used in the east, if but there were a connection between the two, a connection strong enough to move power between the connections, the interconnections.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: And similarly, a picture that I like to paint is, you know, you think about the year as a whole, not just the weather events.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: But in in March, when the Pacific Northwest has these mountains and they're snow-capped mountains, in March, they the snow melts and floods the hydro dams, and that hydropower is abundant.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: You could use that power and take it to the east where it's still very cold in March, and they would have access to lower cost power.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, the power producers would be able to make money and from their excess generation.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was just August, and before that was July.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's very hot in the Pacific Northwest.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I was in Madora, North Dakota last month, and it was lovely.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was absolutely wonderful.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Which also meant that they weren't using like a ton of air conditioning and a ton of generation to keep them cool in the hottest months of the year, which meant that they probably have excess power that they could have sent west.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that could be time of day too, when it's the East is three hours ahead of the West.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Things that happen in the East, coming home from work, plugging in your cars, turning on the TV, the heater, the air conditioning, that happens three hours before it happens in the West, and vice versa.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the power generation and time of day really, really matters.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why we call these um non-coincident systems, and you have the uh greatest impact, it's kind of the fastest way to add capacity to the grid.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: So the ability to move power and to access power in the highest stress periods.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: So when the sun's gone down and you're not, wind hasn't quite kicked up, kicked in yet.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: That that is those are those really risk hours.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where interregional transmission, these grid-to-grid connection connectors are of great benefit.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then using the technology HVDC, by the way, is super controllable.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's highly controllable.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you can send as much as you need, as little as you need.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like if Paul, you need a gigawatt, I can send you a gig, you can send me 500 megawatts and so on and so forth.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: You get a gig, and you get a gig.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: HVDC.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and I would add on top of this, of like, you know, I I've I value a great white paper and policy report that can talk around the billions of dollars of savings that that can happen as a part of this.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I know that when I try to have these conversations, like I always relate back to like if we were going to talk about this at the Thanksgiving dinner table, right?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes, interregional transmission on all of this.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: The the conversations that I have around this and had when I was at DOE around some of these interregional projects ultimately got back down into the community level and what that meant for economic development in those areas.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: That when we're talking around if we're going to grow the economy and and get investment into communities.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I I grew up in rural Pennsylvania, kind of heart of the Marcella Shale region, and so saw a lot of energy development and where that comes around.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but for projects like this, if we're gonna grow this, you need electricity, right?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and what Ashley was just talking around is like, how do you provide electricity at low costs, reliably, and and across a lot of different regions, and where that's gonna come together.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's where it's at.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was having a conversation with with a former colleague about a year ago, and he happens to be in Montana now, and he had no idea that I really worked in energy.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking around rural economic development and what's the best way to do that.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: And out of the blue, he goes, Yeah, you know, there's this new transmission line.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you know about energy or not, but there's this new transmission line coming together that's going to be really impactful because we can get electricity to our communities that we couldn't ever.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Are you talking about North Plains going?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, Oh, yeah, have you heard of it?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and this was this was a a just a local economic developer talking around, like, I need to get more jobs in my community.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and it and it went to transmission as a part of this.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was also from I I remember talking to communities throughout Kansas and Missouri that were talking around projects of they had everything lined up, commercial real estate, retailers, like all of this.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: The last thing they were looking for is we need power.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: If we can get power, we can move all of this.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: And we were talking around of like, how are we going to get transmission lines that were coming through the at the time, the the grid operator of MISO and SPP for for those of for the acronym soup, the JTXQ projects uh that were coming through.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: But but it is these interregional projects that we talk around billions of side of things, but it really is those that local economic development that you're looking at.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: If that if you're not having the electricity coming through, uh some of these projects aren't gonna come through.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: I loved your reaction there, Ashley.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: If you're watching this on video, you got to see her react to Dylan sharing the anecdote about the North Plains connector.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: You gotta love to see that just sort of organically out in the world.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean it it's fun that uh, you know, I I like to think around like what are those real world impacts, right?
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: People like Edna, um you know, we were um we talk around these big national goals and they are incredibly important.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: They set the trajectory of where we need to go and the big things that are a part of it, but we shouldn't lose like what that means and what programs like SciTap can can mean as a as a part of this, because you know, there are people that um I I think I shared this on uh on the last episode too, but like, you know, where I grew up, you know, there are people who electricity goes out way more frequently than it needs to.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and we need to have the infrastructure in place and and um we need to have projects uh moving forward efficiently that are low cost, have good community engagement, and can make sure that we have a more reliable grid as a part of it.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: So so that is really fundamentally where I come to all of this of we need to have affordable, reliable power coming forward um as part of this and working to help communities overall.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: I would just like to make a bipartisan um shout-out here that this program, SiteTap, so North Plains Connector entered the portal two years ago in October of actually less than two years ago, October of 2024.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: The world looked very different in October of 2024 than it does today.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: Nonetheless, this program has shepherded the project through all sorts of transmission transition, um, whether it's an administration change or organizational train structure change or different people coming in.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: It is remarkably impressive when so much shifting in the world um if the government happens, yet this project was able to stay on track.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: And also, we had a couple of government shutdowns during that period as well.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: So to still get this done in less than two years is just uh all of the accolades go to the Incredible, incredible project staff and and and permitting teams, um, and the biologists who know the mechanisms of permitting, because that's not just a research job in a lab.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's a biologist or an archaeologist who knows exactly what they need to put down on a permitting form and what to file.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and the the NEPA compliance officers.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's really it is very, very impressive.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that is uh all the accolades must go to the federal team on that front, as well as all of the um state and local teams that were brought in through this CITAP process.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, agreed on that.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh I think uh the the staff and and leadership at the Department of Energy um are really just um excellent people.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my my experience there for three years was just uh I so impressed um by the dedication um by everyone there and and to see this program and and project um continue to be successful.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Really just shows that this is uh you know a national uh problem and and challenge that that we need to address and can address, um, that that it that everyone can can agree on.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll also know, Ashley, you have a great team too, because someone has to fill out resource reports to put into the portal.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so uh shout out to your team for uh doing all of those resource reports and doing them well so they could efficiently uh move through uh the process here too.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: So oh gosh, the I'm I thank you because my colleagues, they definitely looked um they had some very long nights and very long weekends doing resource reports.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: That that word that just gives me shivers here in the case.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: We couldn't we couldn't get through this without mentioning the phrase resource reports.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul, we won't go down that, but that is essentially for every one of like the individual permits that you need to go, you have to have a report that says, here's all the work that we did to back up, and this is why we should get our environmental impact statement.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's like you have to file 13 different ones, if I remember correctly, as a part of this.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's extensive, um, but you can't get it done.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: Bureaucracy.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: There's another buzzword I wanted to touch on at risk of opening a can of worms 45 minutes or so into the show, and it's accredited capacity value, Ashley.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: What does it mean to have accredited capacity value?
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: And why do resources like these HVDC grid-to-grid projects that we're talking about, why should they have it?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I love that you asked this, Paul.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: So accredited capacity is um kind of what the name suggests.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: It is the credit that a resource receives for for delivering power.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, you might have a um, I'm just gonna pick a solar farm.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: Just no no shade to solar, but uh you might have a solar farm that deliver that has a hundred megawatts that it can generate when it's generating at full full capacity, full amount.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: But when you really, really need it, the power, it only gives you 20 megawatts.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the accredited capacity is 20 megawatts of that solar farm.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: For a line like North Plains Connector, well, it's a transmission line.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't, and I don't I didn't mention this earlier, but our projects don't plug into any one resource, they plug into the system.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: So they're what it's called networked infrastructure, which means that um we don't think about one specific resource, we think about pools of generation, we think about pools of resources.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh in the for the the project, it's 3,000 megawatts each way.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: So 3,000 megawegawatts to the east, 3,000 megawatts to the west.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: The accredited capacity, meaning when the when Southwest Power Pool or the Mid-Continent Independent System Operator, which are the grid operators on the eastern side that North Plains connector would connect into, when they really need the capacity, when what is that amount that they can depend on?
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: That is calculated through a methodology that's used to also calculate the accredited capacity for resources like your um your wind and solar.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I and some places are thinking also about moving uh gas into that as well, natural gas into that as well.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: But that's called the effective load carrying capacity capability.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so what it means is like this resource, what will you actually get from North Plains Connector when you need the power?
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: And for what we found through multiple multiple multiple is is a very low number word.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's like thousands of models that we did, and it's kind of the the comparisons were to like an asteroid hitting something in space, like that kind of um percentage of possibility of something happening.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is how dependable these these models are.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um that for Southwest Powerpool, they could count on about 1800 megawatts of of power uh in terms of accredited capacity.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: And for the mid-continent independent system operator, about 400.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's for the riskiest hours of the year.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Not like the full pound of time that folks would be using it, but the the most challenging times, most challenging, literally hours, not days, hours.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then the west, about 2200 megawatts.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: So the name capacity, what the what the line can move when it's fully moving power each way is 3,000 each direction.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: But we found that for moving west, it's 2200s an accredited capacity, like super dependable.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: It will show up when needed.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then in the east, it would be 400 to 440 to MISO and uh 1,800 to Southwest Powerpool.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think was the last round study they ran.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: But does that does that kind of make sense in terms of it makes sense.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you would understand why people would want to understand that math too when you're plugging into these systems, because 3,000 megawatts is a lot more than than the actual accredited capacity.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also what utilities who are looking to buy capacity on the line.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and by the way, North Plains Connector also has a record for how many utilities are involved with it.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: We have 10 now.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: 10 different utilities all using the same line.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's pretty cool.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's also a first uh that we have 10 across the Pacific Northwest and Northern Plains and Upper Midwest um that are looking to the line as a resource to put into their integrated resource reports that they then take to their state regulators and say, hey, this is what we want to put into our rate base.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, the cost of the the this resource, a North Plains Connector, is is what we'd say lower than a gas plant, a gas peaker plant.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're thinking like, how does that compare to other resources?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of where it is.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: Dylan, you want to jump in the water on an accredited capacity value, or would you rather those boats drift off into the ocean?
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Boy, so you Ashley covered it so well uh that you know what more is there to say?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a great point.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: And uh considering we're coming up on an hour in this podcast, you might be able to extrapolate that to the general conversation.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_02: What more is there to say?
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, my friends, I've left a few minutes at the end for that.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: Our final remarks from Ashley and Dylan before we end this edition of the Factor This Policy Cast.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Dylan, I'd love to start with you.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: Anything else that we didn't get into that you'd like to share about this topic, or maybe one thing you want to hammer home for our viewers and listeners.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what I'd say on this is like, I know we made jokes uh around acronyms and and small government programs as a part of this, but I think this is why we we wanted to call attention to this uh today and why I was excited to have the conversation is that there are good efforts happening right now uh at the federal level and and with state and local governments on this of like how can we work well together from big national billion-dollar ideas into how can we help local communities get uh affordable and reliable power as a part of this.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: We definitely need to do more.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: I am certainly uh up in the halls of Congress enough saying why we need broader permitting reform as a part of this to help transmission overall and help us build projects and build infrastructure projects.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: But there's also programs like this going right now that can help us get infrastructure moving faster as a part of this and just as a is a good idea, good government um that is that is helping people as a part of this.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the T-Swift program certainly would have gotten uh more attention, uh, I think as a part of this, but but we can do our our part here in talking about it today.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for the call back to T-Swift one more time.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: Ashley, any parting words of wisdom?
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much to the like literally probably thousands of people that have had to support this project, that have supported this project all throughout Montana and North Dakota, uh and the federal government.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I failed to mention that they um through the Infrastructure Investment Jobs Act, the Montana Department of Commerce was granted a uh seven or$700 million grant that would help lower the construction of North Plains Connector.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it is folks all around, all across Montana and North Dakota, the federal government, um, the the delegations from the states in Montana and North Dakota, and all the state regulators too, and the utilities and the grid operators that have never had to figure out how to factor in a project like North Plains Connector to give it accredited capacity.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: What does that actually mean in terms of um when grid operators are doing their work?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: How do what studies do they build?
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, connecting these asynchronous grids to the equipment manufacturers that are designing the equipment as we speak to show up on time.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, all of these timelines that everyone has been meeting, it just takes enormous, enormous focus and continued focus over years.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: We are four and a half years in with North Plains Connector.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: This project will come online in 2032, maybe 2033.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: But that is that is sustained work over the years.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: So just a huge thanks to to everyone.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um we we really could not do it without so, so many people who want to make this project happen and believe in it and believe in our ability as a nation to build big things and to do transformative work and to truly build the electrical infrastructure that we need today and that is going to be needed tomorrow, and generations ahead of us will use and rely on.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well said, Ashley, and I look forward to having you back on this program, which will certainly exist in six years or so in the same format as it does right now, to have a conversation about finishing the North Plains connector in 2032 and what that whole process was like.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, thank you for the work that you and your team and everyone involved, uh, and even at Dillon, formerly at DOE and now moving the ball across the finish line with Advanced Energy United doing to make projects like this come together, because we need 10 or 20 more North Plains connectors.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: If we had that, we'd be having entirely different conversations about electricity load growth and how we can make our grid work for us and drive down electricity prices for ratepayers.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: But we got to do them one at a time.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for all the legwork that you guys are doing to move this one across the line.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: Can't wait to report on it as it continues to move in that direction.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: For now, though, it's time to close the door on another episode of the Factor This Policy Cast, presented as always in partnership with our friends at National Business Association, Advanced Energy United.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: Dylan Reed, thank you so much for making another appearance on the program.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_02: So great to see your face this time.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: Make sure to click the YouTube link if you didn't catch Dylan in the first appearance a few episodes back.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: And Ashley, thank you for sharing everything that Grid United is working on and uh teaching us a thing or two about um about capacity uh accreditation.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's I learned something on this program, and that means it was probably a good show for somebody else, too.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: And if you took something out of the show, please like, subscribe, leave a little feedback wherever you get your podcasts.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_02: We do appreciate it.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: And stick around, there are more of these to come.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: The Factor This Policy Cast is released with a new episode every other Thursday.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll have another one coming up later in September.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, though, everybody be good.