Latest / Skin Anarchy / Inclusive Skincare for All Skin Tones with Lion Pose Founders, Nisha & Madhu

Transcript

Inclusive Skincare for All Skin Tones with Lion Pose Founders, Nisha & Madhu · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Teacher NFT, the teacher More, and I'm really excited about the brand that I'm going to be introducing you guys to today because they really caught my eye a while ago and I've been following them and we're finally here, you know, a long time in the making.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really interesting to me when I find brands that work for a multitude of different reasons.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm somebody who I had acne growing up.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was always looking for things that would work for me and you know just different skin concerns along the way, you know, as we age, we have different skin concerns.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, it was always things like finding the right SPF or finding the right serum that wasn't going to irritate my skin further.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, when I find brands that work for me, I love bringing them on and sharing them with you.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to the co-founders of Lion Pose, Nisha Paduk and Madhu Punjabi.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show, Nisha and Madu.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to host you.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: We're so excited to be here.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks for having us.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I really want to dive in and learn about you guys and learn about what made you want to create a brand and where was the inspiration?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we, so this is Madu, by the way.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when we first started, it was now it's like been about four years that we've been working on the brand, but we don't come from the skincare industry.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: We both come from tech.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was at Google Pinterest, Facebook as a product manager, and then left because I wanted to start a company.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: I figured I was just burnt out by tech, honestly.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And ended up starting an infant formula company.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Huggable.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we basically bought and sold infant formula from Europe because everyone wanted better ingredients.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if you know much about the formula industry, but there's high fruitose corn syrup and a lot of the formulas here in the United States.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's poor manufacturing practices that just wouldn't happen in Europe.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so the formulas just were better, and we were seeing like lots of responses from you know people where babies could tolerate the European formulas better.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I actually used European formula with my kids.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And when we started looking into this and basically started this company, grew it to 10 million in revenue within a year, brought on Nisha actually, and she helped me grow it.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we were working together on this thing for so long and wanted to create our own formula and then ran into like, of course, FDA issues.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's like actually a really, really big industry that's, you know, controlled for years by lots of regulation.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: And while we were interviewing moms about other issues that they were having, just to see, like, okay, if we were going to pivot, like what else would we work on?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: We found out that everyone was having skin issues after postpartum, like there were, you know, hyperpigmentation, melasma.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like the first time they were thinking about their skincare again since, you know, they were younger.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we were like, well, this is interesting.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we just came from an industry where it's highly regulated, insane amounts of, you know, legal fees and microscopic detail on every single ingredient.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we're like, well, why don't we have that same thing kind of in skincare?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why is there not that same level of rigor, right?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: When checking on ingredients and testing and clinicals.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're like, can we bring that to the industry, right?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Given our background and our connections in the formula industry.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was the whole concept, which was how do we bring clinically proven, tested on all skin tones to the picture?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And this all skin tones actually ended up being this thing that we learned as founders.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: We started looking at the clinicals of skincare companies, realizing nobody's testing on all skin tones.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, most companies don't even do clinical tests.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: They do consumer perception tests, which is just a fancy way of saying a survey that you sent out to 100 people or 30 people, right?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't, there's like no regulation around it, right?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so we basically were like, well, how do we make more, how do we make this more effective?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think everybody's looking for more effective proven skincare.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so we wanted to raise the bar in clinical studies.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Nisha can chat more about that.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: We've done a lot of work in that space.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think from our perspective on the clinical side, you know, we want to raise the standard for the whole industry.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, of course it started as something that we see as being sort of our differentiator compared to other brands within the space.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: But our goal here is really to just better, you know, the practices across the board and encourage other brands to also do more rigorous clinical testing in third-party facilities, true clinicals, right?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Not just consumer perception surveys, and publish those results and be transparent and honest about who they included in those studies and what the true, you know, statistical significant data is that's coming out of those studies.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that's something that honestly, we even are still kind of getting better at day by day with every product launch that we do, being more transparent about all the study and research that we did on the ingredients on the product and the final, you know, formulation in terms of kind of giving that education to the masses and and bringing those clinicals really to the forefront of everything that we're doing.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really, really interesting that you're you said this because I I don't find this very often in the industry where people are very forward with their science in terms of what the testing they've done is.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is a very important component of any OTC product.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't see I've always been baffled, I'm not gonna lie to you, as a consumer about how this is an afterthought, you know, for so many people.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: So many people.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'll be so honest as a business to say that I think the primary reason why businesses are not being forthcoming about it is because it's extremely expensive.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: So the truth of the matter is, is many businesses have to make the tough decision as to whether to do the clinical testing or not based on their budget.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then in terms of how they're doing the clinical testing, you know, every single participant that you add to the study can add thousands of dollars to your overall cost.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so thinking through, you know, even we have the internal battle often of how many people do we want to include to make sure that it's statistically significant, that, you know, it's a it's a high enough number that people aren't going to feel like, oh great, you know, you tested on 10 people, whoop-de-doo, you know.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the part where it gets really tricky, you know, when you start weighing the financial implications of testing.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it's why I think a lot of businesses honestly will choose not to do it or choose to do it kind of in a lower cost way.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think that's really tough.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if, you know, our hope, honestly, for the industry is that we figure out a way to get those testing costs down because then more companies will just be able to do it financially and then hopefully we'll be more forthcoming and transparent about what they did.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's a really good point.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that, you know, I definitely am very, you know, empathetic towards small businesses because I know that's can be get it can get very expensive very fast, you know.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: But like at the same time, I'm not gonna lie, as somebody who comes from science, I don't feel like it should be an option.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it should be a requirement because when we look at skin health, and I mean you guys know this, but just for our listeners, you know, when we look at skin health, we're really looking at the intersection of OTC and truly farm pharma grade products that are used in a medical setting.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's that's what we're dealing with here.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about, you know, well, yeah, it's just a thing we're putting on our vanity or it's just another product in our cupboard.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not about that.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's more about we're doing things to our an actual organ, you know, that's changing that the way that organ responds to our environment, to us, and you know, what we're doing on a daily basis.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: So there needs to be an understanding, you know, whether it's on the brand side or the consumer side, there needs to be this like, I think, baseline understanding of no clinicals are a must-have, you know, we have to see that this there's real data to back these ingredients, back the formulations, back the thought process.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, to me, it it is baffling, you know what I mean?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: That we don't we don't do that more as an industry.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that you guys really opened with that.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very strong hitting point.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I I mean, I really encourage all of our listeners always, you know, it's one of my biggest points.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: If I could ever make one point to anyone listening, is when you're shopping to product, you have to look for that data.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you gotta look for it because if your skin is not going, if you have certain skin concerns, you have to find things that are going to actually work that have been tested, you know what I mean, by actual scientists and people who know what they're doing.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'm a huge believer in it.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I could rant for days about this, but I know I could I can tell you, you know, you know what's what's interesting is that you know about it and a lot of people in the industry know about it, but I think until what we've learned is that consumers actually don't know in general that there's not testing done on all skin tones and actually can't even tell the difference between consumer perception and clinicals because the industry intentionally makes it very hard to tell the difference, right?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that it's interesting because when we did a lot of focus groups, we learned that most people just think, just expect that companies already do this, right?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so they already do the testing on all skin tones, they just expect it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like shocked when we show them the data that that's not the case.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think this is part of it is that we need to sort of educate on the fact that this doesn't exist.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then customers and people in general just like need to start demanding that from companies, right?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was kind of it's very similar to infant formula in that nobody questioned infant formula for years until recently when we were like high fructose corn syrup, that can't be good for our infant, right?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so now people are demanding better formulas.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's the same thing that needs to happen in skincare.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we kind of saw that we wanted to make sure that we were kind of ahead of that, but also just because, you know, the industry has really just focused on three things.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like oily, dry, and combination skin, right?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's always just been that.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: But skin is such is so much more complex, right?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's texture.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have ice pick scars and boxcar scars, and they're the worst.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're terrible.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're like craters in your skin, right?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so what about products for that?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: It sort of doesn't matter whether I have dry skin or oily skin.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have these scars, right?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And same thing for skin tone, right?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's certain skin tones hyperpigment more than others.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I think there's just more to be discussed in the industry, and I think it's just the beginning.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you brought that up, mother, because I want to share a little story because when I started skincare anarchy, one of the big reasons was because I was not getting answers from dermatologists.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm I'm gonna be very honest here.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was not getting, and not just the derms I was going to, like, you know, professionally, I didn't really know them.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to them based on their ratings and whatever.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm talking even my friends who are in dermatology.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was not getting real answers.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it was around this exact idea which you brought up, the scarring from acne, the ice pick scars, the scars that are deeper, the ones that really impact us when we're trying to do our makeup or trying to do, you know, they're long-lasting.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's a it's like a more rigorous approach that you need to take with those kind of, you know, those kind of aftermath effects, right?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: From the acne that we deal with.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was more melanated skin tones, especially deal with this.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing was that when I approached these dermatologists, they really didn't have an answer for me.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Their answers were, well, you I guess you could try microneedling, you know, we could try something like that.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Or it was like, well, we, you know, I'd have to look at it, you know, I'd have to see it.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, even when they saw it, it was always just these very just not informed answers that I was getting.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I it really irritated me as a consumer, as a patient, because I was like, How do you not know how to fix like deeper scarring at this point?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not their fault.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not blaming, you know.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: What we learned actually, the reason I'm sure you you might know this already, but we have two dermatologists on our board who are incredible, Dr.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Tia Paul and Dr.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Laura Scott.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And what we learned is like there's very specific training that needs to be done on skin of color and like textures skin, because you don't learn that in school.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's not in the textbooks.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: For example, eczema in the textbooks are shown on one skin color, which you can probably guess what skin tone that is.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not it, you it looks completely different on different skin tones.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so what they told us was that they learned that when they were actually in residency or beyond, right?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like when they're actually practicing.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so they went to, they attended the skin of color programs, and I think there's only nine of them in the country.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's that's the challenge is that even the education for this is lacking, which means it starts at the top.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so taking a step back actually from that, you know, the one of the broader issues that we also see in this space is that the dermatologists are also sort of this gatekeeper for a lot of that knowledge, right?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that your everyday consumer, you know, who doesn't have access to a derm or can't afford to go see a derm or maybe doesn't think that seeing a derm is something that normal people do, right?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of fell into that camp for a long time.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like I thought that was something that was reserved for celebrities, right?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's sort of, you know, a dissemination of information problem where, you know, people who are whose only access to skincare is shopping it on, you know, a retail shelf or on Amazon or wherever they go, right?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: Being able to get that level of information is near impossible, I think, for 90%, you know, of the people in this country.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's another thing that we feel really strongly about is how do we bring dermatological information and education to the masses, right?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Via a retail shelf like Sephora.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very difficult thing to do.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we are also limited by shelf space and information space, right?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: And the ability to sort of break a lot of scientific concepts and medical concepts down in a way that's super digestible.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think it's still, you know, a learning curve that we're trying to figure out.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: But that's something that we feel so strongly about and something that we strive to do kind of every day as well.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's such a good point that you made is this idea of the knowledge is it is kind of gate captain and it is limited, you know, it is because dermatologists, I mean, I think they try their best to educate, especially now, you know, on social media, people are trying every day to like bring awareness, spread information, but again, it's really limited to the demographics that they're targeting with that knowledge, you know.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you're like I see a lot of germs out here that are doing great work, you know, they're educating about acne, they're educating about blemishes and you know, different types of like, you know, for example, blackheads or whatever.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: But very I still don't see people talking about hyperpigmentation, scarring, and all of this aftermath that skin of color deals with, you know what I mean?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not there, and it's really a problem.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I can understand from your perspective as a brand who is doing everything right.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: You guys are checking all the boxes, you know what I mean, from the science perspective.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I can see that even being an uphill battle for you as well because oh yeah, consumers don't even they don't know what to look for.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's the bottom line is consumers don't know where to go for this information.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't know when we go to Sephora and we're shopping, which brand is going to actually help with this stuff, you know.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why it's very, it's very important.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's very important to educate and say, And you know what's funny is I think when we kind of first went down this path of, you know, let's bring dermatology to the masses, you don't have to see a derm, you know, to get high quality skincare.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: We were like, oh gosh, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna make the derms mad, we're gonna alienate the derms.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: But in all truthfulness, whenever we talk to dermatologists about this, they get excited because they know that they only have, you know, a certain population that they get to see as as patients within their practice and and only a certain kind of radius around their hometown or practice or wherever they are, right?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: That they get to make a difference and sort of influence people's lives.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so I it's the reason, honestly, even you know, Dr.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Scott and Dr.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Paul on our board uh became social media dermatologists as well, is that they wanted the ability to go broader with their knowledge and be able to educate more people.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: And even with, you know, six-figure followings themselves, they still chose to work with a brand like ours because they still think that there's room for improvement here.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: So so yeah, it's it's really interesting.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think the dermatologists are actually completely aligned with us on this vision as well.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I I can see why.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think with medicine, you know, knowledge is is really the attraction for anyone who's in the medical field.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: I know for me, anytime I can learn something new, like, yes, let's do it, you know, let's expand the field, please.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, I think I want to learn a little bit more about your products because I I really, really like that you have a night serum.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think people focus enough on night products.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie, I'm one of those consumers that loves doing my skincare at night.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think a really heavy-hitting night product, whether it's a serum or moisturizer, whatever it might be, it's more effective for me overall in my in my regimen.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I really want to learn about it.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you can tell us a little bit about your spotted Forex Acid Jelly Night Serum, I would love to learn more about that product.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Mother, you want to start?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I was gonna suggest you, but yeah, sure.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: So okay, I'll tell you the story behind Unspotted.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, I have really, really bad skin.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: I will send you a picture.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's embarrassing.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I had all this hyperpigmentation.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Literally, I think the last decade, I could not walk out the door without makeup, like ever until recently.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so basically, you know, I was trying to search for something that would help with hyperpigmentation.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: I tried everything.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I tried subscision, which is like basically like a minor, you know, procedure.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: I tried chemical peels, I tried lasers, and I bought every vitamin C known to man, which was not, didn't do anything for me.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt like so gypped, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: The thing that did work for me was when I went to a dermatologist and they were like, What are you doing?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can't throw some of these acids on your skin on your own.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is gonna cause hyperpigmentation.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: You need, you know, you need to do this.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I did, I did a kind of gentle chemical peel and it still peeled, so it obviously still burned.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: But over the course of a week, like I literally saw a layer of my skin come off.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And what happened was that it became like more even, right?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it solved like a little bit of the texture problem as well as the color, you know, the discoloration.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, well, how do we bottle this?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so the next step was we tried to make it at home in Nisha's house, but realized it wasn't gonna work.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'll let Nisha take it from there.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Now we we we had brought on our two dermatologists at this point.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: So we were actually working with them on what the actives in the serum should be.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: And we had sort of narrowed in on a few that we loved, right?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Glycolic, lactic, azoleic, especially.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Treningxemic, I think, came a little bit later in our process, but we bought basically some of these raw ingredients and tried to mix them ourselves in my kitchen.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Needless to say, it turned into flubber very quickly.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: It was literally like a rubbery bowl.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: And we were like, hmm, okay, well, we're not chemists.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: We probably should not be doing this ourselves.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, let's go find a lab that's representative.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like remember boiling points?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's you know what we were thinking.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: We were like, APCAM will get us through this, and yeah, it did not, it did not.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: If only, if only APCM had it, yeah, yeah, APCM like 20 years ago will get us through this.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, needless to say, it did not work.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: We found a really amazing lab in Southern California that we started working with to start to piece some of these ingredients together.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what's really interesting is as we were doing kind of our focus group research and our, you know, NIH study research and kind of piecing it all together from our dermatologists from the NIH studies from from consumers, we were also realizing that there were certain ingredients that, especially as we were talking to people of diverse skin tones, were not working for them that were, you know, prevalent in the market.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: So Mother brought up vitamin C, but retinol is another one that I think was was a really interesting one for us, where we're definitely not gonna sit here and say that retinol doesn't work.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: It works for a lot of people, right?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: But it does not work for everybody.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so, really, what we started to narrow in on for the unspotted serum was how do we essentially make a retinol alternative that is gonna be gentle for sensitive skin, that's gonna work on all skin tones, but is still gonna be extremely effective.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: And we landed on something that's still quite potent, right?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's a 15% acid serum.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it does have the glycolic, the lactic, the azoleic, and the tranxemic acids in it.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and this amazing combination of acids we found, you know, when we started actually testing on people when we were, you know, coming to a relatively final formulation was just showing unbelievable results.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think people were seeing, they were able to feel smoother skin tone and texture within a couple of days.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then they were able to see their hyperpigmentation start to fade after about two weeks and beyond.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so for us, you know, to see that coming out of a retail shelf product, right, was something that really couldn't have been better results, I think, for our first product that we wanted to launch.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: I like that you guys mixed together so many different types of assets because they're different, they're different sizes.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: So like glycolic is a very small asset.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like the thought process for me makes a lot of sense because I think when we look at anything that has to do with actives, what I've noticed at least is that we have this like one track mentality about it when in reality we need to have a very, I guess, multifactorial approach to approaching actives, you know, because at the end of the day, retinol, I mean, you brought up a great point about retinol.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And retinol, to me, I'm not gonna lie, I've said this many times on the podcast, I'm not a believer in retinol, and I'm not a believer in vitamin A derivative products.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a real reason for that.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's dated, dated therapy, you know.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: And and the reason I say that is because the primary function of retinol and any vitamin A derivative product is to cause cell turnover, which most of the time it's not the answer, you know, for what we're looking for.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: When it comes to hyperpigmentation.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to scarring, it's not that you need more cell turnover.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's you that you need to manage the actual scar formation, which is a variety of different tissues that are involved in forming a scar, you know?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to manage that.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not a problem with how many times your cells are turning over.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: So like that's where I don't really believe in retinol products as much as I do in like really targeted, like for example, you guys are working with acids.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a much, I mean, it's a much more sound approach from what I can tell, even.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not the expert here, you know, but it makes more sense scientifically.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, one thing I I think I really want our listeners to kind of get into is is understanding when ingredients should be mixed together.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, could you guys kind of walk us down this path of like what made you really want to combine combine these four different assets together?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what were those that you were looking at?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this was like two years of work.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: So this was it's kind of crazy how long it takes to make a product like this.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, there it was based off of this chemical peel that I think I told you that I did.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I did this peel called the Skin Medica Vitalize Peel, which worked really well for me.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is that every single time I did it, it would be$250, and I had to do like a series of them to see any effects.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're spending a thousand plus dollars a year on this peel.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, well, what if it's something that you could do?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: It works slower, but like you can you can do this daily, right?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we did was we broke it up into two pieces.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like you mentioned, retinol is more about exfoliating itself, cell turnover, right?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's two pieces of our products that are about exfoliating, and that is the glycolic acid and the lactic acid.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Those are exfoliating, they're encouraging cell turnover in similar ways that that retinol is doing that.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like glycolic acid and lactic acid is another option for you, right?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: So the second part of it is tyrosinase inhibitors.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what that means is you want to get to the pigmentation before it starts, right?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is an enzyme called tyrosinase that is what produces the melanin or color in the skin.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so what you want to do is inhibit the tyrosinase.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: So there's two other acids in there called that are classified as tyrosinase inhibitors, and that's trynexamic acid and azolec.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: So what we've done is combine an exfoliator with a tyrosinase inhibitor to basically create something that's made for hyperpigmentation.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you're exfoliating and stopping the pigment at the same time.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we think is the most effective thing you can do.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because if just doing one or the other is not going to get to the entire picture, like you said.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense actually.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I like that you are targeting both, you're targeting hyperpigmentation, but you're also addressing the idea of just a healthier, you know, just the skin is turning over still, but it's just in a healthier way where you're not just doing that.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not just one thing you're focusing on.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think that this kind of approach is really how the human body works.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, at the end of the day, we I mean, I have a I I've studied physiology very extensively.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the founding principles of any, you know, person who's dealt with any kind of physiology, you know that the body is never doing one thing at a time.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's always doing 15 different things, you know, different 15 different processes are occurring at once to cause one effect, you know.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I think when we approach our skincare and we're looking at products that are really targeting things like hyperpigmentation, you know, acne scarring, that scar formation, we have to look at it from a perspective of, okay, well, we all we need the things that are going to target, you know, going deeper into the skin layers, but we also need to work with like the surface layers, which is where the bigger molecular weights come in.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: So this is very, very interesting to me that you did that.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I like that you do work with pyrosinase inhibitors because I mean, as of right now, that's all I know of that really targets true hyperpigmentation, like preventatively.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's very interesting.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what one of the things is what was the process of trying to get this, you know, off the ground from the clinical standpoint of studies?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what were the groups that you looked at?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know you guys worked across the board with different skin types.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: So can you tell us a little bit more about your clinical studies and like how you approach that?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so there were a couple of requirements for us when we went into our clinical studies.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: We definitely wanted to test across all skin tones, and we also wanted to test on sensitive skin.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: So those were probably the two overarching things that we looked at when we were sort of sourcing, you know, participants in our study.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: We then worked with a third-party lab who does true clinicals, which means essentially, you know, they're they're actually measuring using tools, you know, within the lab to actually measure reduction in dark spots, overall skin tone and skin texture improvement.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, the biggest thing for us really there was that we wanted to get statistically significant results, right?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: So we wanted to work with, you know, an objective lab that had nothing to do with us.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: They were doing all the recruitment of participants once we kind of gave them those requirements.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: We sent them into essentially an eight-week study overall to really understand, you know, how the product was working over a long period of time with some shorter period check-ins along the way, because it's always nice to see, you know, that that improvement kind of throughout the process versus just the start and the end.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and the lab essentially reported to us all the data and findings from that clinical test.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and we were really excited to see, you know, that the results matched up to what we really wanted out of the product.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's really cool.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you guys have some really great results, by the way.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about that, like the results that you saw, the percentages of reduction in the in the concerns that were being targeted.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll call out probably the two most exciting ones from our clinic goals, which is after four weeks, 94% of participants saw a reduction in dark spot size.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: And after eight weeks, 97% of participants saw a reduction in dark spot size.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: So we were really excited just to see, you know, the the sheer volume of people that were seeing results kind of within that two month period.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then of course, as you know, with all of these products, the longer and more consistently you use them, the better, right?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: So even after that eight-week period, you know, the hope is that people will continue to see those results and kind of improvement on an ongoing basis.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, this is really, really impressive.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the results are very impressive.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that when it comes to skin texture as well, you know, that's something that very rarely, I mean, I know as a consumer, it's something I very rarely say, hey, yeah, I saw a difference in my skin texture, you know, because it's always like transient.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like, you know, you see it one day and then the next day it's back to normal.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's very impressive that you guys have such good results and people have really responded so positively in your studies.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: I want to, I want to take some time and focus on your other product, the sunscreen, because I know sunscreen is a very, I think it's a kind of a pain point for a lot of us, you know, especially if you have melanin-rich skin, it can be very difficult to find a great sunscreen.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: So can you tell us a little bit about Ghostbuster and what your thought process was behind creating a mineral sunscreen?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, mother, you can start on kind of why why sunscreen, and I can get into a little bit on the product.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: So so basically the the story behind this is that, you know, chemical peels and retinols, anything that's doing exfoliation is creating sort of like micro, you know, micro abrasions in your skin.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so create sensitivity and you become photosensitive to UV rays.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so the next thing that's recommended is sunscreen.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's interesting because you don't like think about it as, hey, I should have an A serum and a sunscreen, but that's how the dermatologists on our board were thinking about it.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, you absolutely need to use sunscreen next.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was why we wanted to solve that.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And for us, because we came from a world of like, you know, very high FDA regulation, we were excited to work on an OTC product because sunscreen is considered OTC in the United States.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we wanted to do something different with it.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: So at the time, my daughter was going to preschool and I would put on sunscreen every day, and she hated that, you know, white cast that you get with the sunscreen.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's like one of those things, like every morning I'd have to put it on her, and she'd like run away because she didn't want to have that experience.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so we were like, well, how do we make this better?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the parts of it that we really focused on was that if if we're gonna make it, we we had already decided it was gonna be mineral, but we wanted to make it moisturizing because the problem with a lot of mineral sunscreens is that it creates like this sort of chalky feeling on your face, because of course, like zinc itself is like a chalkier mineral.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so, how do we make sure that it's moisturizing, goes on smoothly, and doesn't cause that white cast?
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so though those were the goals, and I'm really, really proud of the results, and Nisha can cover that.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: So we decided to include 15% super zinc.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a really interesting zinc oxide raw material that actually blends a lot better into skin tones, which is fascinating.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: It is a non-nano zinc oxide, so so that was really important to us as well.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: We really wanted it to be, you know, that true physical mineral sunscreen that that sits as a layer, you know, on top of your skin versus getting absorbed into your skin.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then to make it moisturizing, we included squalin, which is a very kind of typical moisturizing ingredient and a lot of even moisturizers, right, that you find on the retail shelf.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that really kind of allowed, again, the zinc sunscreen to have a lot more of that hydrating feel.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: We actually did clinical testing on the product for hydration.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's how important it was to us.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: So we did it with a tool called a corneometer.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Similarly, a third-party lab conducted this clinical test for us and it and the results actually found that after applying the sunscreen, you know, eight hours later, there was 136% increase in moisture levels in the skin.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that was really exciting for us to see.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Now, obviously, it's a sunscreen, so you really should be applying every couple of hours.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: So that percent would even be higher, you know, if you're using sunscreen properly throughout the day.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: But that was a really exciting clinical result and a really unique one, right?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: That that we found, especially with a sunscreen.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Then on top of that, obviously, we did our very traditional SPF testing on the sunscreen as well.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: And we were able to achieve an SPF 42, which we were very excited about as well.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, 30 is kind of the standard on the market, and we really wanted something that people felt was absolutely protecting them, was, you know, a little bit of a step above and and again still blended in and was super hydrating.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, especially with the with the serum.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you're gonna be using actives at night, you should have a really strong sunscreen in the day.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really smart that you guys do that.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really cool.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you have the hydrating component in there.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's really, really important.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think people underestimate, and I mean, this is my personal opinion, but they underestimate the importance of very well hydrated skin.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like half half the time I've had like any texture issues, it's usually because my skin is not properly hydr hydrated, whether it's a moisturizer or whatever it is, you know, whatever product I'm using, it's not doing the job.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when I notice my texture the most.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really cool that you guys thought about that and it's incorporated in the sunscreen, which is the number one most important product that we could possibly use from a skincare perspective.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I I like that a lot.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the hardest one to make.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: So actually, we were really excited that we chose to make it so early in our journey because, you know, when we were formulating the sunscreen, it was actually at the same time we were formulating the serum, if you can imagine it.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if the serum took two years, you know, the sunscreen took three.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like essentially we started them both at the same time, but sunscreen being OTC and being that much harder to formulate, right?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: OTC just meaning meaning that we did actually have to register it with the FDA, right?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's an FDA regulated product, it just takes a lot longer to bring to market.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think because, you know, they were the first two products we created and we were so heads down focused on RD and product development at that time.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: It was like the perfect first two products for us to go make because we sort of started with the most complicated stuff in our time when we were only focused on development.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it actually ended up being, you know, an interesting call, but the right call for us at the end of the day.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think it's it's brilliant because I've literally have had this conversation on the on the pod before about how, you know, if you're buying a brand and they haven't even invested in making a sunscreen, you gotta think twice.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like you really have to think like from a skincare perspective, it's very important, you know, if you're selling products that have, you know, actives or anything, right, as a skincare brand and you haven't thought about your sunscreen and there's no offering in your collection at all, or you're not directing people towards sun protection, that's kind of a red flag for me as a consumer.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it just doesn't, it doesn't sit well with me, you know, especially for any kind of skin concerns that people are targeting.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think it's brilliant.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that you did it, you know, like off the rip.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like you were like, no, we gotta have a sunscreen.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I really like that.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it sends such a good message because consumers, like, you know, I think all of us, we have so much faith in the brands that we invest in.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we really do vote with our dollars when we're buying a brand, especially now in this, you know, within the clutter that we see in the industry.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's it's just a fact.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's so many products, so many brands.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of things seem redundant, but then when you can see a brand that has done their homework, they have the clinicals, they're making products that are actually not just, you know, targeting things, but they're really thought-based products where you're thinking about the consumer's needs, that really goes a long way.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so I really hats off to both of you for doing that from the very beginning and and putting your time and energy into making a great sunscreen.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a really great one, by the way.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: I use it all the time.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: I personally prefer more hydrating sunscreens myself because I don't wear a lot of makeup, but if I do like put a little bit of powder on or whatever I do, it just makes it look better overall.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a really, really great product from my perspective, you know, from the makeup perspective as well.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I love it.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we love it too.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's honestly it's gotten me to wear sunscreen every day, where I will be very honest with you, I did not before we started this conversation.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's all about starting a habit, you know, like it's all about creating that habit.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it that can't happen if you don't have high quality products.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at the end of the day, that's what it comes down to.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, for sure.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: It makes sense.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: I guess, you know, one of my biggest questions then is really, I mean, I I want to actually shine a light on this because I'm very personally like, you know, I'm South Asian.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, all of us here are, and I think it's important to shine a light on this because I just don't think people talk about it enough.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is that there's a lot of really great innovation coming out of South Asian brands.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at the end of the day, South Asian inspired, founded, you know, just anything that has to do with because I think we, you know, fall into this category of understanding the needs of like various skin types.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at the end of the day, you know, I have South Asian friends who have skin that is very different than mine, you know, and they're they never complain about hyperpigmentation.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then there are others who are like, yeah, you know, I'm very similar to you, where they have the same skin concerns.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's such a wide array of skin types that I really think it's important to kind of talk about this, you know, as an industry is that there is this movement going on where a lot of the brands that I'm seeing pop up that are popping up in a very strong way, you know, in a very forward way, are founded by South Asians.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: So can you guys comment a little bit about this?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how was this journey for you?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, keeping that background in mind and keeping your own skin journeys in mind, you know, coming from that perspective and creating a brand.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Just some thoughts that you can I can start and then I definitely want Madhi to kind of share her story as well.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: But from my standpoint, you know, I I've always kind of felt like I was neither here nor there.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think that's one really unique thing about a lot of people with South Asian identity, is that, you know, you don't feel like you're Caucasian.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you don't feel like you have super deep skin tone either.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so you almost feel like even if there are companies out there, and there definitely were before us, right?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: We were not the first to necessarily be targeting a diverse set of skin tones, it still sort of felt like I didn't belong, right, into either category.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's really where for me the sweet spot has been is that there's sort of this everything in between.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: And especially as, you know, our country, for example, gets more diverse just with more multiracial marriages and multiracial kids, right?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's sort of this beautiful blend of colors that's starting to emerge, I think, in the new generations as well.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it's causing essentially, you know, the amount of people and the percent of the population in this country with self-identifying skin of color to increase over time, right?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it's literally every shade in between.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's that's honestly where I felt the most passion here is that, you know, for someone like me who didn't really know where I belonged, we were creating something that made me feel like I belonged.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's so important.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I can only imagine that I wasn't the only one who was feeling that way.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love how you phrased that.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: I felt that way growing up all the time.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, which category do I fit into kind of things.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my mine is, you know, I grew up going to India every almost every year of my life until I was like 18.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then so I I felt the a culture of colorism pretty, pretty early on.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: I, for example, was not allowed to play soccer because I would get too dark.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: That was the thinking behind it, right?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the rationale.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my parents wouldn't let me go play outside in the summers.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: I was told to stay inside because, again, for my skin tone.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think there was a lot of trauma there as well, because like my mom was the darkest skin tone of all of her sisters.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: And she ended up getting, you know, a lot of slack for that when it came to getting married.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: There was like an arranged, you know, but there's a culture of arranged marriages and people would judge her based off of her skin tone.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a really, really painful history, which I think you know stems from colonialism that still exists today across the entire world that has, you know, experienced the effects of colonialism.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up actually bleaching my skin.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I didn't know that this was like kind of a taboo thing at all, because it's such a mainstream practice in India.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: When I was 10, my aunt took me to a salon and I remember like they just laid me down in this back room.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea what they were doing, and they painted my body with this like white stuff, right?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't know what it was, but I started my skin started burning in like five minutes.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: My eyes were completely red, and I was like, what is this?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like, it's gonna make you beautiful, right?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, yeah.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I just, it was like, you know, when you're that young, it becomes a part of you.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: I just every month until I was like 32, bleached my skin every single month.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was like part of my life.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't realize until I started to have kids how bad it is for you, right?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like your skin is your largest organ and it it is taking in toxins every single day.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you better bet that bleach is incredibly toxic for your body and your bloodstream, right?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I immediately stopped once I learned that.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: But it's one of those things that I think just coming from a different culture really helps to understand the trauma that has been experienced in other parts of the world.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so apparently I learned I'm not alone.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: 50% of people of color will have bleached their skin at least once in their life.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: 50%.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: This is like, this is very, very big.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why we wanted to create a product that had no bleach in it, but it addressed the issues of, you know, discoloration on your skin.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: But we want to keep your natural skin tone.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Just, you know, make sure that you're happy with it, right?
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so the idea here is we're not bleaching.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: There is no product, you know, on our shelf that's doing that.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: But we want to also shed light on some of those things that are happening in the world.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that, Mother.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: That is so powerful that you shared that because no one talks about it candidly, honestly.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it's such a real, it's a reality for many, like you said, 50%.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's a huge number, you know, and there are so many friends I have had my whole life that this was part of their, you know, daily life as well.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that it's it's a real thing.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where for me, South Asian founded brands and inspired brands, it's not just because I'm South Asian, they just hit a a beautiful place in my heart because there's so much that cut is coming with that.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's an understanding of true, like the diversity of cultures in the world, you know, because we see everything.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, India is a country where you will see pretty much every skin tone.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: You will see everybody.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: You will see the lightest to the darkest skin tones, and everyone is coexisting, you know, and they have their own problems and people are dealing with it like any other country.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: But the culture, it kind of primes you to see that, you know, to see this diversity in skin tone and it make it it, it normalizes that exposure.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: So for us to then, you know, see brands that are coming from this place of understanding, like founders have this understanding that yes, this does exist.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Diversity is a is an integral part of being human, you know.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: And for us to then address that from that standpoint, that knowledge, that's beautiful, you know, and that's something that's very powerful going forward because when people pick up your products, they're they know they're coming from somebody who understands, you know.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: That level of understanding is is I think more important sometimes than anything else, you know, any consumer, you know, information we can get from like third parties, it's more powerful because it's from first hand experience that you have that.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I really, really encourage everybody, you know, I anyone tuning in, when you're looking for brands and you're looking for something that is you you're talking about things like inclusivity and you're talking about things like you know diversity driven, you need to look for who's behind these brands.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: What is their experience?
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: What is their knowledge and their understanding of what you know true colorism means, you know, and and how it impacts the world.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when we look at it from that lens, we it becomes easy, you know, to really vote for the right brands and to get behind the founders who get it.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really applaud you for you know not only sharing your story, but for both of you for just thinking so much about what you're creating and what you're putting out into the world is just so important.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, really hats off to both of you.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and for everyone listening, I will be linking everything about Lion Pose in the concept art and also our show notes.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: But please, you guys vote with your dollars for real.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's a great brand.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: I really love your products, uh, really, Nisha and Madu.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: I really love them.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: They're great products, they're truly clinically efficacious.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: They work, they are targeting the the you know, the concerns that are being marketed.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: You guys aren't marketing something that's not really true, you know, which I see a lot of in this industry.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's the sad truth of it.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I really think that the honesty behind your brand and the transparency and what you've created is something to truly be applauded and to get behind.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I encourage everybody listening, check out the brand, let us know what you think.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you have any questions, concerns, anything you want to add to this conversation, please chime in, let us know.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to subscribe and rate our podcast.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: But Nisha and Mother, thank you so much.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's been an honor to learn from you and to host you and and chat with you.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a pleasure.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 45:25
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• 45:30
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• 45:32
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• 45:47
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• 46:13
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• 46:18
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• 46:24
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• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.