Latest / In the Valley of Giants / How to Teach TEACHERS | Dean Shmuel Klammer | ITVOG 12

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How to Teach TEACHERS | Dean Shmuel Klammer | ITVOG 12 · In the Valley of Giants

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OK, Rabbi Clamor, thank you so much for being here today.
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My pleasure. Really appreciate it.
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So to introduce you so, Rabbi Dean Shmuel Clamor is the Dean
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of Terror College in Israel. Previously he was the head of
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Shulamit School for Girls in Brooklyn.
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Part of that he served as the principal of the Hebrew Academy
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of Long Beach and I think my MO in Boston.
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Robert Clammer has also taught many different grades over the
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years and serves as a show Rev as well.
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He's spent three years in Eric TSRL, 2 at Yeshivas Karamyavna
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and one in the Griscoll and Yushalayim.
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And you have a BA and a Ms. in Jewish education from the
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Israeli Graduate School of Jewish Education, Shuba
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University, and Shamika from Yeshivas Rabinis Hakohanan.
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Why you and EDM and EDD from Teachers College, Columbia
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University, and over the last 16 years, Robert Clammer has
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overseen it, developed the curriculum for the program and
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Jewish education for the Terrell Graduate School of Jewish
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Studies and has served as an adjunct professor.
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He teaches courses on curriculum, classroom
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management, classroom prachtum, skillful and effective teaching,
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positive psychology in the classroom, and differences in
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boys and girls learning. So that is a lot of stuff to
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talk about. So again, really excited.
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Thank you so much for being with us here today.
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So the first thing I want to talk about, which I find to be
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really desperate is just not the same.
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And I don't just mean age wise, like are we, are we in the
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Bronze Age or the Stone Age, but also the age of the child, the
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age of the person. So you've experienced in both, I
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mean, being in Mimo and then, you know, teaching Ribbonim,
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there's a huge gap in between. So what are some of the unique
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challenges that you think are are present in teaching
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children? So first of all, teaching all
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different age has given me a long term perspective, starting
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with three-year olds all the way through Graduate School and
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people my age. So I, I think one of the
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foundational ideas which we find in the Gemara and many other
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places is the concept of Girsuddha yankuta, which of
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course means that what we get when we teach children certain
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things, values in particular, but Torah and whatever else we
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teach them at a young age, often it sticks and effects the rest
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of their life. So there's a huge Aquarius
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responsibility on the early grade teachers in particular
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because they have this incredible lasting effect on the
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children and some habits and on the parents.
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Of course, so many of the habits that the children learn or the
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ideas or the beliefs that they learn in an early age, they
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stick with them for the rest of their life.
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After all, Alvaro Mavino, according to some of the
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Midrashian right, it was a Hikarus Morrow at three years
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old. So we want to instill that kind
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of a muna and the values at the earliest possible age.
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So I found it very interesting teaching so many different ages.
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And sometimes on a Friday I would I would have multiple
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assemblies. I would start off doing
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something for the three-year olds and then about 10 minutes
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later I'd go upstairs and I'd do the 12th grade.
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So I had to make sure I didn't do the same program for the
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three. Yeah, that wasn't, it was quite
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a disparate group. But you, you see, it's
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fascinating to see how the person develops from even before
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3. But I, my experience has been
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from three-year olds through 12th and beyond.
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So it's, I think that each grade and each level has a different
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and unique, many, many unique challenges.
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So that I think it would take us a lot of time to go through
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those. So if we, but, but each grade is
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different and unique. In the early grades, the
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children often up to like around 5th grade in particular, are
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ready as the Gamaras is also ready to receive so much.
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And, and they are, they are generally they're, they're so
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absorbent, if you will, anything that you teach them.
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And then when you get to middle school requires a different type
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of teacher, a different type of teaching, different way of
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approaching it. They're questioning a lot of
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things. They're uncertain about their
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identity. We get to high school and
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they're starting to be formed as adults and so you have to
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approach them very differently and more maturely as you move.
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And there's a big difference. There's a difference between
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boys and girls and, and 9th grade versus 12th grade is, is
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quite radical. In 9th grade, they're still kind
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of sowing their oats and by the time you get to 11th or so,
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they're really settling down more.
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It's later with the boys and the girls even earlier.
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And then in college, I have them currently, I work at Toro
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College in Israel. And that's a whole.
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They're young adults and they have very, very different lives.
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And then the idea of people who are taking a second degree as
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adults. So that's also a very different
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type of it's a person who wants to have lifelong learning.
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So that's particularly exciting also to teach people who are
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adults and always looking to improve themselves.
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And that's what we should be doing at any age though from
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three-year olds throughout our lifespan.
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Tashem. Right.
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But is the implication that at every stage, and as you said, we
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don't have time to go through everyone, but is the implication
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that at every stage it's less, it's less led by example heavy
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and more intellectual heavy like the three-year old he's so ready
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to receive, but he's looking more at what you do versus what
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you say versus someone in their 30s or 40s is only pretty much
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interested in what you have to say.
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That's very good. Interesting question.
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I think it depends greatly on the individual, but I, I, I
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think especially maybe middle schoolers and high schoolers are
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also very much looking for role models and the younger kids at
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every age they're looking for role models.
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How much is to pay? It does change the way they
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relate to the role models at different ages, but I think even
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adults, we're looking to the rishul Rav or the rush coal or
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the community leaders to set the example.
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A role modelling is one of the most powerful things we can do
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and you know Shalom and his safe Ron Kino talks a lot about that.
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He writes that tell medium and I don't know if he was referring
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to anyone particular age, but throughout there to tell medium
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can be Maria can they can smell sweet, they can smell hypocrisy.
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So if the Rebbe is telling them one thing and acting
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differently, Rahman al Mutslan then the students, you don't
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even have to tell. You don't have to tell them they
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will and you don't even have to show them.
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Sometimes they're so astute. They can smell the the
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hypocrisy. So we have to be through and
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through, true to who we are as as Mahanaghan.
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As the level as the child grows older, what is the major graph
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trajectory? Meaning, again, there are
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changes, but what what what changes in general as the
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childhood older and what's the? Difference, we have to talk a
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lot about Piaget and Kohlberg and all that and, and the stage
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of development that has all talked about.
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So that's like a whole course. But one of the most profound
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things I've seen as a school principal is that as they get
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older, you need to have more solid boundaries, Miss Garrett,
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But the boundaries can be further out.
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So, so if they're at three years old, you don't, or if they're a
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baby, even, you don't let you know.
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Just play with whatever they want, right?
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You, you're careful not to give them things that they shouldn't
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put in their mouth. And then as they get older, you
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can give them other things. And as they get and you can,
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they don't have to be in a play pen, etcetera.
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And so too, with older kids, you can allow them to play in recess
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in a large area and they don't have to watch every step.
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You know you're keeping an eye on them.
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But as they get older, you can even tell them you can go
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certain places on your own. You can be in charge of the
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media in the school. You can video.
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I have many times I had older kids do jobs with the younger
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kids. You I appointed certain students
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to be monitors, like media monitors in the 8th graders who
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were actually not very strong learners and necessarily those
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particular students. And when they became the school
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photographers or media experts or videographers, all of a
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sudden they became hush of a mansion and they looked at
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themselves differently also. So I gave them the Zacharias.
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They now have an important job within the school and it changed
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their whole outlook on life. And, and, and, but I gave them a
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lot more leeway. The boundary, they, they
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couldn't do anything they wanted.
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The boundaries were more solid, but they were further out.
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I wouldn't let a second grader necessarily be the school
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videographer and play around with expensive equipment.
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But as they get so with everything that as they get
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older, you move the boundaries further out, but you make them
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more solid, especially as they're teens and older teens
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because you know, you have to, certain things have to be
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unacceptable. So it's exposure like we, we, we
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need to expose our children to more as they get older in an
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educational sense. I would say exposure
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responsibility is a very important word.
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Jobs, meaningful jobs. I mean, I had even in the 6th
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grade level, many of the Rebbe that I worked with give the
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Tafkidim even to carry the Rebbe's bag, which it was a big
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cover for certain. Or to be the monitor for the
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computer in the classroom or the smart board.
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Or you know, when you give the kids, you know, who comes first
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to shul in the morning in most shuls Gabby exactly.
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So in in mushrooms. I've been in I I'm in early.
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I come to show early also, but before as I arrive, I pull up
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this one car there, it's the Gabby's car because he he's very
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important to him, to the community and he takes his job
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seriously. So I am a big believer of that
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in terms of kids at home, by the way, as well as it's called, if
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we give kids meaningful jobs that that they enjoy doing and
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feel, you know, they feel a sense of hashiba, whether even
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if you're giving them the to put up the parsha.
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I had this, the 5th graders were in charge of putting up parsha
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Dashavua every week. And the time Shabbos comes in,
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that was, you know, we gave it to a particular student or
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students and no Mashiva Ruach those and the others are in
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charge of the Sidorian. The others are in charge of
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keeping the shul. And then this was the Gabarish
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and the Gabarisheni. And by the way, the Svardem have
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a great system. Why I was just talking to a big
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rush of Shiva here in RTC. I don't want to mention the
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specific name, but he was lamenting the lack of knowledge
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of Hebrew language today. And so, you know, if you, if you
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give the, the, you know, you have to have a Shiva with, with,
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with many different things, but you can appoint them jobs and
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you can even have them do things in Hebrew or in English.
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And, but you have to give kids responsibility and they take,
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it's something that's meaningful and take, they take
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responsibility at home and at school.
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And that could be a life changer.
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And one of my favorite stories. I had a boy, he's now probably
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in his, he just got married. So he's like in his mid 20s.
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And I still remember, he still remembers the story.
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He did not make the hockey team one year and he was very upset,
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but he was a nice kid. And so I had a powwow with the
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gym teacher and we decided we would make him assistant coach
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of the hockey team and he became the assistant coach and he took
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that job so seriously and he remembers it out of your Mazat.
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But it gave him tremendous confidence and he had a lot of
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fun with the job too. And the other guys embraced him
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also. And the coach was really took it
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seriously also. They had the real coach.
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So I think that I'm a big believer in that.
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I think it's very transformative to many kids at at all different
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ages. And, and we could take what I
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said before, also moving the boundaries further out so you
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can give bigger responsibilities, more
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meaningful jobs, more more challenging jobs to kids as they
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get older. And often times that will turn
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into, sometimes even to, a career.
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Well, I can intuit from that. Then perhaps the educational
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system in the college setting or university setting or Dallas
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Shiva setting or coal setting that's more optimal for people
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that need those boundaries. But for younger students, they
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need, they need a lot more latitude.
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So is the educational system that's set up now so positive?
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They have a lot of red lines, they have a lot of red tape, and
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already they're 8910 years old. Especially in RTS with Hodarum
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Frank. What do you think about that?
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Well, I, I don't know the darn so well.
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And it's just, I know some, my, my grandkids go to a Mamlati
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Kharidi school, which is actually pretty.
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It's a very good school actually in Bechamish.
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And they have a lot of programs and a lot of things like they
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have even what I was just discussing where kids can get
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jobs and do things and take responsibility.
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So I know in that system at least, which is maybe more open
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to that type of thing. So I don't know certain Khadar,
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I might imagine or not. But the biggest difference for
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in that kids life is the school can make a difference, but even
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more is this particular Rebbe or Mara that can have the biggest
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impact. So within the classroom setting,
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there's a tremendous leeway in terms of what what the teacher
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can do and and be transformative in terms of the kids life.
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Give an example. In the class of what I said you
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could, we had a kid in 6th grade who was in charge of the mouse
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and the computer. So it freed up the teacher to be
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able to teach the lesson. The kid was listening because
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they had to listen to everything the teacher said and move the
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mouse and click on whatever. And that kid felt very important
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and it made, it gave them a greater seriousness of purpose
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and they had a great relationship with the teacher
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and they learned a lot more and they felt good about it.
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And then that was a general studies teacher, even 6th grade.
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So that was, that's an example, I think in terms of the shul
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there in the school, the school setting, there's a lot to lot to
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be done to base measures to school, you know, giving
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different jobs. I think what you were doing here
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a few minutes ago is exemplary. I do that on the younger grade
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level a lot where you have the kids and with the kids that
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little kids, obviously you can give them something brief to
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read or if they're more advanced, you can give them
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something to prepare. But where the kids say they tell
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her about the tila or about different things.
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So that really enhances the the davening, but it also gives it
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is a rotation and the kids have a responsibility.
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Yeah, I think especially in being able to properly absorb
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the information in which we learn to have the a harass of
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being able to give it over clearly some you realize maybe
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you didn't know it as well you thought you did.
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Yes, yes, that's absolutely critical.
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One of the best things to do in any classroom for every age is
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to who learns the material best in the class?
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Who knows the material the best the Rebbe exactly right.
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OK, So what do you do? You make every Talmud into a
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Rebbe in some level pair share think pair share brief cabrusas
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and then say over to the class say it over.
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Just start with state of the Carrusa, right?
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I'm sure we all have the experience that learning the
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Carrusa is erratically different and better experience than just
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learning on your own. You know, it's good to learn on
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your own somewhat too, but it's learning Carusa that that you're
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teaching the other guy. He's teaching you.
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It's it changes the whole dynamic and it changed what you
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remember and how well you remember it.
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You know, it's a So we do that in the class.
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Great teachers do that a lot in the class and give many
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opportunities for kids to teach each other, even for a kid to
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get up and teach the class. I was just showing a video,
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which I do in my, in the graduate program a lot, a video
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of a wonderful Rebbe in Long Island who was teaching his
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class. He had every single high school
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boy. It was like, you know, they were
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going up to the board. He had a tea chart on the board,
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very simple. You have two sides.
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He was comparing, comparing Dora Midbar versus Dora by arts and
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how the, you know, the differences between the two And
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the boys knew a lot. And it he, he had them going up
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to the board, filling it in and being proud of it.
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These are high school boys, OK. And you know what it looked like
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and felt like it felt like they were going up and taking layups.
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Kid you not, if you see the video, they're like going up and
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they're putting something of meaning on the board.
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De Vray Tara and they're proud of it.
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And he gives them a big, you know, your shekau to every guy.
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And then the entire class is going up and doing that.
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So and it's like a sports experience.
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And he's like a coach and he's getting, but the boys are
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teaching the other boys and they're they're, you know, that
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that's a great learning experience and where every
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single boy in the class was on certain level, like a teacher.
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Interesting. Well, OK, let's switch it to
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let's say parental role. OK, so how does that look also
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in general over advancing through different stages as
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parents cause most of the kind of happens in the home.
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So what are we looking for as our children get older?
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So I think some of the same things and some different
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things. Parents even more than more than
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teachers sometimes, although great red B and a great teacher
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can be have to be role models, role model.
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And that's the kids will, as we all know, they don't necessary
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to learn from what you say, they learn from what you do.
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So if the parent is learning a lot of Torah, if the parent says
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they're very Torah at the Shabba's table, if the parent
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sings mirrors, if the parent is giving Sedaka, telling the
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truth, all these important things.
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And the children generally, not always, but picking up and by
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osmosis, they, they, they take in what they're seeing, what
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they're more than what we are. You know, I think there's a lot
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of recovers for that, including the round bomb.
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But the, that they follow what we do rather than in the safer
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famous, safer, you know, Khalebnum, Shahar Harpula.
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So we follow what the but I think that's the number one
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thing. And so as we get older, as our
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kids get older, so the role modelling has to advance also in
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terms of the various activities. One of the biggest problems we
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have is we are a society as a whole, the West capitalist
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society very much focused on the shalaluchma.
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So the moving from the shalaluchma to Lushma becomes
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more and more difficult to instead of you know, what
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happens often is that the you give them a ticket.
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If you if you Da Vinci, you get a candy, you get a chocolate,
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you then it becomes a camera and then it becomes a car and then
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it becomes a dirad and it becomes so in the dourself.
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So to wean at an earlier age off of a loluchma to move, you know,
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I'm learning this because of the schmuck of the learning, because
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this is this is thoris Hashem and this is what makes us, you
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know, this is what brings Haim aim at the earliest possible age
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to move them to instead of I'm not just doing this, you know,
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Cardinal, I'm not doing it for the reward.
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So that's one of the big challenges.
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The other big challenges entitlement and I worked in
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mostly well to do communities, although I worked in one
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community that was not not, not so well to do.
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So that was an IO opener for me in many ways.
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But in in our wealthier communities, at least in Hutz,
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the arts and I think here too, there's a tremendous sense of
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entitlement which comes with a many, many Mokshim many.
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What sort of entitlement? Oh, it's I'll give you a couple.
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Is it the silver spoon that like every kid has now?
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Or is it something else? But I'll give you specific
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examples. So children in the eighth grade,
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there was an opportunity to be in a more advanced math class.
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And without fail, every year I would have a suka fight with
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parents. My kid belongs in that.
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Even if the kid got a 45 on the placement exam and even if the
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kid didn't want to be in the higher math class, the parents
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insisted no, my, whatever because it was more about the
19:50
parent status in that case. So that's a sense of entitlement
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the parents are giving over to the kids.
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And it also comes with very, very severe consequences.
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The amount of cheating that takes place and not even getting
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into AI right now, that's a whole nother.
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Ball game but in just in terms of regular cheating going on in
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some of our schools is part of you know, I'm going to get ahead
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no matter what and it does at whatever cost I deserve to be
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Rashbahaga. Whatever the head of the CEO,
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the whatever it is, it keeps the price keeps getting bigger and
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that's caused I know of a quite a number of cases.
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I'm sure you've heard of some of them in in the firm community.
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One case where very distinguished lawyer stole from
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his shul and it was in the news in a very big Hashem and just
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he, he, because you can't, when you reach a certain point, you
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can't, you know, come down from that place because you have to
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be certain, have a certain position.
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How could they cost that you ruin your own morality?
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Yes, that you ruin your own morality is it is it's
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justification. I'm going to pay it back.
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You know, just like with the most of the financial crises,
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they start with I'm just borrowing it for short for six
21:06
months. I'll pay it back because I'm
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going to make so much in the stock market and I make so much
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and it's, it's, I'm just borrowing and I'm going to put
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it back. And then they don't have the
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money to put it back. It becomes more and more.
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It was a half $1,000,000. I believe in that particular
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case. Another case there was a, this
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is very rare, but it was, there was a doctor also that cheated
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and some of the results on some in some research, she made-up
21:27
some results. That's also so these are things
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which, you know, I need to be the head of the department, I
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need to be at whatever cost and and this certainly trickles down
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to our children. Rahman Al Ottan.
21:39
Are these two problems not really the same problem?
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Because being robotic and just focusing on the misa, the
21:48
hovosa, not focusing on the Hovis ivarma, not on the Hovis
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Allah vovos, right? Doesn't that make us not so
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moral? Like to me, to steal money from
21:57
anyone but especially a shawl is like so outlandish.
22:02
Like, you know, I think people only make mistakes that they can
22:05
somehow justify, right? So they always justify it, yeah.
22:08
Right, but it but but it shows, I'm not sure if it's more of a
22:12
loss of the morality or they're just showing that the morality
22:14
was never really there. And if that's so, so how do you
22:17
cheat? How do you teach a child?
22:18
I mean, I have my own ways that I've shared before on the show.
22:21
I feel like it's important to talk, talk to kids about things
22:24
that they really don't know the answer to.
22:26
Like one thing I remember doing with my kids is I always ask
22:29
them, why is the sky blue? And I'll say, well, because it
22:32
looks nice. Be like, well, just because it
22:34
looks nice, why does that mean that this guy has to be blue,
22:37
right? Or why do you like blue,
22:38
etcetera, etcetera. But what what do you think is
22:40
some really great ways that we can fill that natural?
22:42
So I agree with you that moral reasoning and you know, Kohlberg
22:45
spoke about this and Hazaz speak about it.
22:47
They'll have the that there's you should pose moral dilemmas
22:51
and have kids figure them out and then tell Sefsky Schlita,
22:56
who actually wrote an article about this in Kohlberg and Moral
22:58
Development and he felt that you should finish up always.
23:02
You quote the Chauhanar, you quote Hazal, what they say, you
23:04
know, you should do the moral dilemmas.
23:06
And I think that's a very excellent way, a really
23:08
excellent way to to train kids at.
23:12
The Chavez table. Yeah, you could do that.
23:13
Like there's something often this is a newer newsletter to
23:16
other rabbis that was going around.
23:18
It's very nice, he posed. They're small ones, but you
23:20
could have more extensive and and some things different, you
23:24
know, people were putting out different moral dilemmas.
23:27
But you could do a Chavez table, you could do it other times.
23:29
It's a very learning reading, discussing the kids will like
23:32
that. That is great, but it's also not
23:35
enough. The most important thing is, you
23:37
know, as we mentioned Lucy Rochelle before, it is be the
23:40
role model and to do what you say as well.
23:42
So if the kid sees the parent is, is dealing with a moral
23:46
dilemma, and then maybe the parent when, when appropriate,
23:49
there are times it's not appropriate, but when
23:51
appropriate, the kids sees, the child sees the parent is
23:55
successfully navigated the moral dilemma.
23:57
Maybe he's gone to the Rav, Maybe he's gone to, you know,
24:00
the person who was a Rav and also a person who knows the
24:03
field that they're talking with medical, whatever it happens to
24:06
be, then they'll do the same thing and see the role model.
24:10
So I think you need the combination of the moral
24:13
because, you know, I spoke many times.
24:15
Doctor Punkowitz has spoken about the and, and there's many
24:18
books written on the subject, the gap between moral reasoning
24:22
and moral action. It's great.
24:25
It's a very famous study. It's spotted in many, many books
24:28
about the, they had at a, a particular Christian seminary,
24:34
they were teaching about the Good Samaritan and they were
24:38
training theologians about that. This is a person who did the
24:42
good thing when nobody else did good things.
24:44
Somebody was lying on the road and they, they, everybody else
24:47
ignored them. And, and so they were teaching
24:49
about this and they had to give us this, these theologians, how
24:51
to give a speech on the subject of helping out others.
24:55
And as they were run, they had to get to the other side of the
24:58
campus. As they were running to the
25:01
other side of the campus, there was a person, a homeless person
25:04
in the middle of the campus lying there asking for help.
25:07
Very few people stopped to help him.
25:10
And they were going to give a speech about, you know, the
25:14
ethical behavior and then the Good Samaritan.
25:17
And they didn't realize that the the stereo mean a obey.
25:20
So that that's a famous study. And so we have to bridge that
25:25
gap between moral reasoning, which is really important to do
25:28
also, and the moral behavior. So we need to do both the misa
25:32
and the and the Bakshava as well.
25:35
OK, as a you are a shoulder of for a period of time, that's a
25:39
really different role than just a stym educator.
25:42
So why'd you do that, and what was that like?
25:43
So I enjoyed it very much. There were aspects that I
25:46
enjoyed. I felt that that to be assure of
25:50
a big assure, you have to be a really big post egg and that I
25:55
didn't see myself in as that at least that that yeah.
25:58
So I felt you know, but I enjoyed many aspects, the
26:01
communal aspects, the the giving shore him and that I love that.
26:05
But what also gave me an opportunity to see families and
26:10
some of them were in my school, in my class.
26:12
So you got a better picture in that respect.
26:15
It was very helpful to see. You saw the whole family unit,
26:18
so you could see the parents and sometimes the grandparents and
26:21
then the kids. And when you see the kids within
26:24
the dynamics of the family unit. So it gives you tremendous
26:28
insights. And also as a principal, many
26:31
times, most of the time if there's anything significant,
26:34
behavioral issues or other things, you need to work hand in
26:38
hand with the parents. Some parents are very resistant,
26:40
but if you have a relationship with the parents, that's a whole
26:43
different ball game. And if you bring the parents
26:47
into the picture, so you also had the parents have to really
26:50
feel that you are on their kids side and you want the best for
26:53
the kid. Alpha Piki, not everybody is
26:55
cooperative, but what I would often do if kids got into a
26:58
fight with each other in school and I would have them, I deal
27:02
with the issue and then have them make up and shake hands and
27:05
smile while shaking yes, I take a picture of it.
27:07
In later years I would send the picture first to both parents.
27:11
Then I would call them and tell them, you know, there was a
27:13
little problem. But Brocco Sham, as you can see.
27:15
We worked it out. So I would then I would discuss
27:17
this. So then the kids room, what they
27:19
remember, they remember the picture, they're smiling and
27:21
shaking hands. So that was a strategy I didn't
27:23
particularly in the last few years, I was when the cameras
27:26
were much easier to use. So the same clique can be for
27:30
for good things and a camera or a video or whatever you can do.
27:34
Right. Interesting.
27:37
What is how about? How about when you're So we
27:39
talked a little about educating children in total, about
27:41
educating our personal children as they grow older.
27:46
How about teaching teachers? Because that's something that
27:48
you do quite a bit. I love that it's, it's been my
27:51
passion the last 16 years or so and it's really a lot of fun,
27:56
but. What's the focus?
27:57
Well, what are you teaching? Focus is topless.
28:00
So there are two kinds of courses we have in the Graduate
28:02
School. 1 is on the regular academic courses and teach about
28:07
methodologies and all that. And I show videos in that course
28:10
also. And then there's a practical
28:12
which they have to take at least three semesters.
28:15
We had some people took 4 semesters.
28:16
There's a big, I won't say his name because I don't think he
28:19
wanted me to, but it's a big, he's actually a, a big town with
28:23
Hockham in Queens. Give Shiram and Yoradaia, he was
28:27
in my class and he would send me 5 videos a month.
28:30
I couldn't keep up with him and and I learned that I did a lot
28:33
of hazard on your day that way also because he's really good
28:36
and but he the best teachers always want to get better.
28:40
I have, I have teachers who are beginners and I have teachers of
28:43
more experience. And I have all different ages
28:45
from 22 to, I had a guy who was probably 70 even he's still
28:51
teaching. And it's been a, it's very, and
28:53
we have separate men and women's classes, but it's, it's actually
28:58
a tremendous joy because if somebody's coming to a graduate
29:01
class to become a better teacher, they really are
29:04
passionate about teaching and they want to get better.
29:07
And that is the most important thing of change.
29:09
And right, the light bulb has to want to change, right?
29:12
So the teachers all want to improve.
29:15
Rytorski Zetzal from Boston to Tullawebi.
29:18
He told me when I got to my monetary school, he said we
29:20
don't want change, we want improvement 'cause he wanted to
29:23
push me in the right direction. And that's what we really want,
29:27
to help teachers improve. I had a guy who was a big
29:29
tobacco also. He was he's a rather big show
29:32
now and he came in initially very timid and then but this
29:38
doesn't always happen. This was like a real success
29:40
story. And six months later he was like
29:43
on fire in the classroom. So it was really you could see
29:46
it on the video and he was even just subbing in a class and he
29:50
was just like Amish great. So that this is a lot of fun for
29:54
me, but it's also a challenge because many of my Tommy Dim are
29:59
way bigger Tommy than me. One guy was editor of a major
30:03
series and in the in the and Gamar's Yaokut of Mfarshim and
30:09
he edited it also a great science teacher at the same
30:13
time, Rush Kolel. And another guy was, you know,
30:17
we had a scan Rev of a major scholl and we had the guy who's
30:22
another guy who was a rob of a scholl.
30:23
So and they also teach a lot of these guys do both teach again
30:27
and Scholl, you have to make a living today.
30:29
So what's the main, main impetus?
30:32
For these people to pursue further classes is to get a
30:34
certification in order to somewhat move so it but it does
30:38
give you a. You know, more possibilities in
30:43
terms of your career if the people, many schools, especially
30:46
the better schools, want you to have A, at least the masters.
30:50
So that's one. And the other thing is the, I
30:53
think most of them really do want to improve, except for the
30:56
very few who were sent by their school because they're having
31:00
trouble in the classroom. There was a very few.
31:02
And that doesn't usually work as well.
31:04
If the teacher himself or herself wants to join, usually
31:08
they're very motivated. And then you could work with
31:09
them and you could, it's, it's less threatening than having
31:13
your principal tell you you're not doing a job because you're
31:16
worried about your job, right. But if I tell them, I don't say
31:19
I'm very careful. I, I try to find every Nakuda
31:23
Kriyovit. And I ask the other students
31:25
also when they're analyzing the video, focus on the Kriyovit if
31:29
I have anything of real significance.
31:31
That's actually me to say a negative.
31:34
I'll, I speak to each one of them privately as well.
31:36
And I'll say it that way. But in the public setting, we
31:39
try to really focus mainly on the things they're doing right
31:44
and how they could do it better. And then and you know, and then
31:50
they're listening. The other ones are listening to
31:51
what we're saying about this one and they can incorporate that
31:54
into their repertoire. Give.
31:57
Me some. Really.
31:59
Big. Differences between learning in
32:02
regards to our teaching men and women.
32:05
And as a follow up, how has that changed significantly over, you
32:09
know, your, your life span of teaching?
32:10
Because men and women today, because of just what's available
32:14
are very different than men and women 100 years ago.
32:17
And even before that. Like, I feel like education has
32:20
had to be a certain way up until the explosion, you know, over
32:23
the last 60 years. So I'd love to hear answers to
32:26
both of those questions. So the men and women, well, the
32:29
women and the men that I teach 10 are generally people who are
32:34
Maminum and who are passionate about Kinok.
32:40
I have a the gamut from more, a few more modern Orthodox.
32:45
And then I have, you know, more Yeshivish, both men and women.
32:51
So there are some differences, you know, in, in in more yeshiva
32:58
circles, for example, it's it's look about to call the women by
33:01
misses. So and so and so there are some
33:04
differences in in I'm I'm aware of those cultural differences.
33:07
Try to be sensitive as I can to those things.
33:12
I would say the is in general that women they are, you know, I
33:15
have a whole course on gender differences in education, which
33:18
is kind of like the opposite of what the rest some of the other
33:20
world is going. But there are and I said once to
33:23
a high school associate principal, I told him I'm
33:27
teaching a course on gender differences in learning.
33:30
And he said to me half jokingly, he said I wasn't aware there
33:34
were any similarities. So he's working in a boy school
33:37
for like 2530 years. There are great differences in
33:43
kids starting at the earliest ages even.
33:47
And there's a long list of things that different men and
33:51
women are different is a one of the biggest things is that women
33:55
tend to be more affiliative and men more cooperate and more
34:00
affiliated and more cooperative and men tend to be more
34:02
competitive. And that has a lot of hush lahot
34:06
and you should and one can use that in a very positive way in a
34:10
lot of different contexts. Can you give an example?
34:13
Sure. So.
34:14
First of all, I mean, and a good learning group size that I've
34:18
found in my experience for men is Carusa once a Habura or large
34:23
habura giving a Habura OK or Karusa.
34:26
But the women dafka like to work in a group of three or 4-5 in
34:30
cooperative groups where they all like are equally
34:33
contributing the men's Kabura. One guy's giving the Kabura, the
34:36
other guy's listening. They're asking questions that
34:37
are the women is a much more like this cooperative activity.
34:41
Interesting. So if you're doing cooperative
34:43
learning groups, you have to know I I will do them more often
34:45
with women and with the men. I'll do Kabrusa or or think pair
34:48
share more. I'll do the covers it with the
34:51
women too, but much more, you know, they, the women enjoy very
34:55
much having these even now. I got to I just left the Truro
34:58
College in Israel and they're gathering around the lunch table
35:02
and they're the women and during the day we have women and the
35:04
men at night. And so the women are having this
35:07
powwow and they're like really sharing personal stories and all
35:10
that. So that's another component of
35:12
it. They want to the women generally
35:14
become much more personal more quickly.
35:16
Hold on, what do the men do than the.
35:18
Men, the men do not let. On so much about their personal
35:20
life, Maybe if you know them after 20 years, they'll tell you
35:23
know so, So tell you one thing. Yeah, I'll tell you one.
35:25
Thing you'll. Know that the whatever he came
35:27
from San Francisco or something, you know, but after 20 years,
35:30
but the women like they'll tell you do you know, you know, I
35:32
have 3 kids. These are their names and they
35:34
were born on on Tuesday. And then it was 2 Bush spots,
35:37
whatever, you know, and, and my kid was, was walking at whatever
35:41
age. And they're, they give me a lot
35:43
of trouble going to sleep and, you know, and, and sharing
35:46
stories. And that's much more open with
35:48
the women, the men after they get, you know, it's interesting.
35:51
I, I mentioned before one of the best things to do with men who
35:55
are, have been coaches, basketball, hockey, whatever.
36:00
In a high school setting or a middle school setting, that's
36:02
often a very big plus. And even if they haven't been a
36:07
coach, but if they know what coaches do, it's extremely
36:10
powerful. For I mentioned, for example,
36:12
the class before this Rebbe had the boys like going up to the
36:16
board, ILU taking layups and they were writing different Tara
36:19
and he was like, you know, like a coach Shamarish.
36:21
Like you could see it like a positive coach like John Wooden,
36:25
who was a great role model and he was an ethical person also.
36:29
I used John Wooden a lot and as a role model and go back and
36:32
look, he's a very fascinating coach.
36:34
There are other coaches who are not good role models and I
36:36
wouldn't want to people to emulate them, especially
36:39
rebbies. But an ethical good coach is a
36:43
really good role model for many boys, middle school boys and,
36:48
and and men. And that works pretty well in a
36:51
classroom in many settings. But I have to tell those guys
36:54
who are like these, you know, really enthusiastic rebbies and
36:58
sometimes use the lower tone a little bit also, you know,
37:01
because if you're always, I had one rabbi who was rabbi the year
37:03
in, in Muncie. And I went to his, when he was
37:06
honored, I went to the dinner, Rabbi Radinsky.
37:11
So it was a great, great dinner. And he's great.
37:16
But what I had to repeatedly tell him is if you're always up
37:19
at like, yeah, unbelievable enthusiasm.
37:22
So you have to come down sometimes because it's hard to
37:24
listen for three hours and it's great.
37:26
You're an amazing rabbi. So he did, he listened.
37:28
He's a very, he's a, he wants to get better.
37:31
So he sometimes speaks softly and comes down and whispers even
37:35
sometimes. So you want to have a, a larger
37:38
repertoire. And so that's, I tell the guys
37:41
who are like on fire all the time already and the guys who
37:44
are not on fire, we got to get them on fire a little bit.
37:46
And if they're, you can be calm also as a rebbie, there are many
37:49
excellent rebbies who are calm also.
37:51
And especially as you get to older students, they respect
37:55
intellectual prowess, you know, and, and, and if you have, you
37:59
can say over a good Kaboor and you could say it clearly.
38:02
I have a guy who's a very, very good girl, Mazbeer.
38:05
And he's, he's not necessarily like that kind of thing, but
38:09
he's, he's enthusiastic, but in a more laid back way.
38:12
So there are different types of Rabam, but on the middle school
38:16
and the high school level, it works in a lot of ways.
38:19
Even davening, which is the hardest part of the day,
38:22
davening, it's much harder than Cher share.
38:25
You can do all kinds of things, get them involved, interested.
38:28
Davening is a big challenge from for from like 6th grade through
38:34
12th grade because 90% of it is moral.
38:38
Yeah, is moral. You said yeah, I think so.
38:39
It's like, do you believe? It's right to talk to your
38:41
creator. OK, that's part of it.
38:43
But. But your average 6th grader is
38:45
not. So I think, I think, I think
38:49
that's the difficult thing, yeah.
38:50
Yeah, yeah. I think that's the difficult.
38:51
Thing that's hard, but it's middle school boys are a whole
38:54
different men. They're like not shortness to
38:56
hair. So, but they're, you know, I
38:58
have a lot of my tell me that we're experts in the middle
39:01
school level because you had one day you're like this and one day
39:04
you're like that. And they don't, they're changing
39:06
every every two minutes, you know, so you have to adapt and
39:09
be flexible and but you have to be a solid role model in the
39:13
middle and the high school already they're starting to
39:15
respect you. If you're, if you really know
39:16
your subject matter, you say it over clearly and you're a fair
39:19
marker and you're and you're most importantly, you, you're
39:22
mohabbi de talmidin. That's the number one way to
39:27
success in managing a class is when the rebbi's mohabbi de
39:31
talmidin. So very famous and questionable.
39:34
Maybe madrish about it's a little, it's very exaggerating.
39:37
Madrish about Moshe, Moshe Abeda being Mashami Yoshua.
39:41
It's kind of a shocking madrish where he brings his, his shoes,
39:43
his clothing, his clothing. So but but I think the Madras is
39:46
giving a message. If Moshe Rabenu Rabanchal Nivim
39:50
is muhabed his Talmud, so a Rebbi has to be weak Abaham and
39:54
we have to be Muhabbi rah Talmud.
39:56
So once the Rebbi does that successfully and and sincerely,
40:00
so often times they tell me that we're eating out of the Rebbi's
40:02
hand because the Rebbi shows real risk, not just for them
40:05
personally, but for their answers.
40:07
If the Rebbi's Mahabbi the answer of the Talmud, that can
40:10
make that Talmud's day or week a month.
40:13
So that is like #1 in class of management, but how did you tell
40:16
medium in multiple ways, especially what they, if they
40:19
have something to say and you know, respect it, give them
40:21
comfort for their what they said and you know, find the, the good
40:24
points in it. Don't just nod your head and say
40:26
good, but to to relate deeply to listen really good or them are
40:32
good listeners. Also they can hear what to tell
40:34
Medium are specifically what they're and even if way they
40:37
make a mistake, they know where they made the mistake.
40:40
So that's we're almost out of time, but I just want.
40:43
To ask you one more question and then we'll open up to one or two
40:45
questions here. You're the Dean of Terror
40:47
Israel. Why you're the Dean of terror
40:50
Israel and what's that like? Talked a little bit about your
40:52
experiences. It's, I enjoy it very much.
40:55
It's a lot of fun. I what I like best is I like,
40:59
one of the things I like best is that I get to hire really good
41:01
people and I can choose in here and there just so the way it's
41:05
set up, I can choose from. There's a huge pool of talent
41:10
and it's growing all the time. I have a guy, as I mentioned to
41:14
who was teaching business, who was a big town of Hakhom says
41:16
over Dafiyomi. Sometimes he's a musician.
41:19
He's like a very special guy. This is one of many have a
41:23
science teacher who does research in genetics and very
41:27
firm woman who was, you know, so hiring these people and exposing
41:31
the students to such amazing people is is is a great an offer
41:35
me. It's like I set it up so that
41:38
they're getting these incredible role models and people who are
41:42
really excellent in their field. And so I have a lot of and then
41:45
I shut knock and I go into the classes, I watch what they're
41:48
doing and I get a lot of knockouts from from seeing the
41:51
students learn and get a career and get and learn deeply about a
41:55
particular field, get a Parnosa. So that's very fulfilling and
42:01
just and then working with in there to sell.
42:04
I have the most, if you will, idealistic staff also Kemat that
42:11
probably makes them powerful. Yes, Kemat.
42:13
Everybody made aliyah at some point in their life, chose to be
42:19
here in Archestra and believes in there in this country and
42:24
believes deeply in it and believes is the destiny of the
42:27
Jewish people are here combined with the belief that it's, it's
42:30
important to be, I'll seek the Yeshuvo Shalalam and to and to
42:35
contribute to society in many, as many ways as we can.
42:38
And, and every, you know, everybody's involved.
42:41
I think my entire fact that maybe 1 exception is involved in
42:45
Torah learning on some level. Many go to Shiram constantly or
42:47
give Shiram. We just had, unfortunately, one
42:51
of our professors passed away. It was a huge Tom Mccallchum.
42:53
He gave Shiram all the time and he also taught statistics, but
42:58
that we've had, you know, very, very special.
43:00
We have very special people at the and just it's, I enjoy being
43:04
exposed to them also. And she was with them and I
43:07
can't 1 of professors, many of the professors are constantly
43:11
coming in so enthusiastic. This do you know this student
43:14
got a job working in the Hebrew University lab and they're doing
43:18
research and this and that and now they wanted another student
43:21
and we just put another student in the Hebrew University.
43:23
That's interesting. They Mama feel like it's.
43:24
Their top good to be able to give people notice.
43:26
Wrong. That's right yeah.
43:28
And and to. Discover, you know, all these
43:30
things we hear about the Startup Nation.
43:32
It's still going on and one of the big area.
43:34
Turo is a specialist in many areas, but we have 6 medical
43:39
schools, PA schools, PT schools, OT schools, speech and language.
43:44
We have healthcare. Our president is a cardiologist,
43:48
so we're very and you know, there's a lot of research on the
43:51
helping professions, whether it's Kinok, which is the helping
43:54
profession or medicine of some, some aspect of it help.
43:59
These are very, very people tend to be very particularly
44:03
satisfied with these. And even a person goes into
44:05
business if they're helping yeshiva or they're, you know, or
44:09
they're learning at the same time, you know, that's very
44:11
satisfying. You know, they're, you know,
44:12
they're giving to DACA and they're doing and they enjoy
44:15
contributing to whatever product they're to society.
44:20
It's you know, I, I guess those who there are some not that, not
44:24
that anybody that I know now, but I knew somebody once years
44:27
ago who was working for Philip Morris.
44:29
That must have been a little bit challenging, although we didn't
44:31
know it was, it was producing only cigarettes.
44:36
But if you work for a generally for a company that that is
44:39
producing an ethical product, it can be a very fulfilling thing.
44:42
Is the college expanding? Like do you do you?
44:44
Is the is the program going up over the years?
44:46
How long have you been there for?
44:47
This is my 6 1/2. Years I've been in this position
44:50
I was at. I've been at Torah for 16 years
44:53
now in the Graduate School of edge teaching cleanup, right?
44:56
Are people taking advantage? Of what you have over here in
44:59
artista. Yep, Hashem, we had an.
45:02
Incredibly successful fall. It was the biggest ever and you
45:06
know, people are we had a couple of students even from England
45:10
now we had in the past Povichon. But I I, I think, you know,
45:13
unfortunately with the anti-Semitism of the world, it's
45:18
we're going to see more British students coming if they speak
45:22
English well enough. We've had we had a bunch of
45:24
students from South South America.
45:28
That's a little more challenging because of the translating some
45:30
of the credits, whatever, but they they were very satisfied.
45:33
As long as they speak English pretty well, they can do well.
45:37
All of our courses are in English except for the Hebrew
45:39
language of Opine, which is in Hebrew.
45:42
That makes sense. Yeah.
45:43
So if and, you know, I imagine and there are many more people
45:46
coming from France, I mean. Oh, yeah, for sure.
45:49
Yeah. That's.
45:49
That's their question. Yeah, so.
45:51
OK, I'm going. To open it up to one question.
45:55
Donnie, grab a chair also. Is there anywhere?
46:05
Between like in your experience having taught all ages where
46:12
older kids are? Lacking in an area.
46:15
That younger kids are very proficient in and that younger
46:19
kids are, I mean obviously lacking than older kids would by
46:23
how big, how big you want to go both directions.
46:26
Yeah. OK.
46:27
So one of the things that we problems that adults have is
46:32
that we're always worried about and this we can talk about
46:34
growth mindset and and creativity.
46:38
There's a whole literature on both of these things.
46:40
But as adults, we tend to kind of put up front.
46:43
So we don't want to be wrong and we don't want to mess up.
46:47
So we become very cautious, too cautious to try out things and
46:52
make mistakes. And because of that, we tend to
46:56
often be less creative and less curious.
46:59
And maybe we have the curiosity, but we were afraid to ask.
47:02
We're afraid to try. Little kids are not afraid to
47:06
ask. You know, why do you have that
47:08
on your, on your forehead or you know, but, but more significant
47:11
questions they'll ask. And so we in fact, the
47:15
creativity literature shows that adults who want to be more
47:19
creative should adopt the mind of a young child in certain
47:23
sense, not, you know, and and that will help you be more
47:26
creative and more open and more flexible and to have a little
47:31
kids tend to some. So it depends what age and
47:34
there's a whole discussion. What, what age do they stop
47:36
having a growth mindset? Or, you know, is there some kids
47:39
automatically have it genetically and some don't.
47:42
So that's all separate discussion.
47:43
But that's a really big area is that adults are afraid to make
47:46
mistakes. And so creativity with young
47:48
children is much greater. And the other way around, of
47:51
course, there's so many things that the kids don't, you know,
47:54
don't know when they have to learn how to be, to learn a
47:58
particular skill or profession. I mean the reading, hopefully
48:02
the reading of a this is what I was talking to the Rasha Shiva
48:05
the other day about the kids who read, if we if they get a good
48:08
reading experience as a young child, hopefully they become
48:10
more and more proficient. They can read texts that are
48:13
more complex Kumar as we've shown him or Israeli newspapers,
48:16
the HAF deal, you know that they can become more proficient at
48:19
it. Unfortunately, you know, I talk
48:22
a lot to my teachers about having a balance between skills,
48:26
content and affect or Musa Haskell, those three areas.
48:31
And we are often don't want to teach skills.
48:36
So if we don't teach little kids skills and then middle schooler
48:39
skills and high schools, so they come become adults and they
48:42
don't have the skills, whether it's Hebrew language or other
48:45
areas. So that's where we hope that if
48:48
we've done that well that as adults they'll have really good
48:52
skills. They can give a Kabura in a
48:54
complex Kabura and Gemara or whatever else as they have to
48:58
develop their skills. So I think the key areas that we
49:01
have to develop the skills as they get older, so they should
49:04
feel comfortable and proficient. Dean Clamor, thank you so much
49:08
for coming. Pleasure, pleasure.
49:09
Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.