Latest / Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary) / How to break into the book publishing industry - Kieron Lewis

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How to break into the book publishing industry - Kieron Lewis · Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)

• 0:14
  Keiron Lewis: Do you know what?
• 0:15
  Keiron Lewis: crazy because as designers, and I feel like I get the vibe we're quite similar like are very nitpicky, right?
• 0:20
  Keiron Lewis: And you, produce this work, which you should be proud of and, publish the happy client's happy, even grandma's happy, but then you read it and you're like, Oh, Jesus, there's so many things you notice and stuff that I say to my wife, is anyone gonna pick up on that little slight ledging, you know, or letting or anything like that?
• 0:36
  Keiron Lewis: No, Kieran, they won't.
• 0:37
  Keiron Lewis: But I guess it's,
• 0:41
  Radim: Hello and welcome to Creativity for Sale podcast, a show to help you start and grow your life changing creative career and business.
• 0:49
  Radim: My name is Radim Malinich and creativity changed my life.
• 0:52
  Radim: You see, I believe creativity can change your life too.
• 0:55
  Radim: I even wrote a book about it and it inspired this podcast.
• 1:00
  Radim: I've set out to interview the world's most brilliant creatives, designers, writers, musicians, makers and marketeers about their life changing experiences with creativity.
• 1:10
  Radim: If you ever wanted to know how people go from their humble beginnings to the pinnacle of their success, our conversation should provide you with an intimate look into triumphs, challenges and untold stories behind their creative endeavours.
• 1:24
  Radim: We also discuss the highs and lows of creative careers and creative life.
• 1:28
  Radim: So Thank you for joining me on this exploration of passion, creativity, innovation, and the boundless potential within us all.
• 1:35
  Radim: Let creativity change your life.
• 1:37
  Radim: Are you ready?
• 1:44
  Radim Malinic: My guest today is a South London born graphic designer with a keen eye for editorial design.
• 1:49
  Radim Malinic: With over a decade worth of creative experience, he has successfully worked across print and digital for many distinguished high profile clients.
• 1:58
  Radim Malinic: Away from his editorial work, he's also a D& AD judge, a keynote speaker, a host of Adobe Live, and a busy guest lecturer.
• 2:06
  Radim Malinic: So let's find out how he does it all.
• 2:08
  Radim Malinic: It's my pleasure to introduce Kieran Lewis.
• 2:15
  Radim Malinic: Hi Kieran, how you doing?
• 2:16
  Radim Malinic: Welcome to the show.
• 2:18
  Keiron Lewis: Thank you for having me.
• 2:19
  Keiron Lewis: I'm all good.
• 2:19
  Keiron Lewis: How are you, dude?
• 2:21
  Radim Malinic: I'm very excited to have you on.
• 2:23
  Radim Malinic: I'm especially excited to have a, a book designer and an all around creative on the show to geek out at least for, part of the show about the amazing medium that books are.
• 2:34
  Radim Malinic: As you know, this show is about the myth or the fact or the truth that creativity changes our lives.
• 2:41
  Radim Malinic: And I want to know how creativity changed your life and what is your backstory for those that not know you yet?
• 2:48
  Keiron Lewis: we'll just lead into it.
• 2:49
  Keiron Lewis: I mean, so yeah, my name is Kieran Lewis.
• 2:50
  Keiron Lewis: I'm a freelance graphic designer, from South London, born and bred in Brixton.
• 2:55
  Keiron Lewis: and if we're going to go back into sort of graduation days, I graduated nine years ago.
• 2:59
  Keiron Lewis: studying, graphic design, marketing and branding.
• 3:02
  Keiron Lewis: but in those early stages, it was very much advertising.
• 3:04
  Keiron Lewis: And then, did a lot of side projects parallel to my university career.
• 3:09
  Keiron Lewis: And then, over a period of time of meeting some nice people, working on some cool projects, I've made a career into working on publications now, and that's what pays the bills and the things that I get up for in the mornings,
• 3:19
  Radim Malinic: Oh, that's interesting.
• 3:19
  Radim Malinic: You say it pays the bills.
• 3:21
  Keiron Lewis: occasionally.
• 3:21
  Radim Malinic: occasionally.
• 3:22
  Radim Malinic: So where did you study?
• 3:25
  Keiron Lewis: Yeah, so I studied at Winchester School of Art.
• 3:27
  Radim Malinic: Did you?
• 3:28
  Radim Malinic: Oh, right.
• 3:29
  Keiron Lewis: so very, very quaint town, almost Harry Potter kind of vibes in terms of the cathedrals.
• 3:35
  Keiron Lewis: And, it's a beautiful city, but very different to South London, Brixton, you can imagine, which is where I grew up.
• 3:40
  Radim Malinic: It must have been a cultural shock because I used to live in Southampton for a while and they used to go to Winchester and I was like, what did they sell here?
• 3:47
  Radim Malinic: Like, you know, you get all these shops and it's just like
• 3:49
  Keiron Lewis: mulled wine.
• 3:50
  Radim Malinic: Yeah, like they sell rope and I own like baskets that are like, what do these, what, like what people need?
• 3:55
  Radim Malinic: And yeah, I used to go, at Christmas time to Winchester and it's, it's beautiful.
• 4:00
  Radim Malinic: I mean, it's, I think that the Winchester has got like this pattern where.
• 4:04
  Radim Malinic: people go to London, make their careers, then come back, breed and then send their kids to London and they come back and yeah, breed.
• 4:11
  Radim Malinic: it's just a sort of two way stop for people in Winchester.
• 4:13
  Radim Malinic: But, how did you find Winchester in terms of, sort of inspiration?
• 4:17
  Radim Malinic: Obviously, I'm personally, I lived in Southampton and because that was my first thing, my first place to live in, in the UK from when I was in the J Republic, I was very much mesmerized by the sort of the music culture, by the club culture, whereas Winchester's not that known for vibrant music scene on drum and bass.
• 4:35
  Radim Malinic: How did you find it?
• 4:36
  Radim Malinic: Obviously, especially coming from Brixton,
• 4:38
  Keiron Lewis: Yeah.
• 4:39
  Keiron Lewis: I love that you dropped in the drum and bass cause I actually, so I went to uni in Winchester, but I lived in Sampton too.
• 4:44
  Keiron Lewis: And I used to work at a club called audio, which it was called Rhino to begin with.
• 4:47
  Keiron Lewis: I don't know if you ever know.
• 4:49
  Keiron Lewis: and I'm massively into, well.
• 4:50
  Keiron Lewis: I was, but not so much now.
• 4:51
  Keiron Lewis: I'm a joint based dubstep.
• 4:53
  Keiron Lewis: so I always feel living in Samson, but going to Union Winchester had the best of both worlds.
• 4:57
  Keiron Lewis: So I also made that travel.
• 4:59
  Keiron Lewis: I used to drive.
• 4:59
  Keiron Lewis: So I drove in, which is quite lazy of me.
• 5:02
  Keiron Lewis: It's only 15, 20 minutes down the road.
• 5:05
  Keiron Lewis: so I was able to have that balance of Samson and Winchester.
• 5:07
  Keiron Lewis: And actually Samson felt a little bit more.
• 5:10
  Keiron Lewis: I guess it was home.
• 5:11
  Keiron Lewis: I lived there for a bit as well.
• 5:12
  Keiron Lewis: but it felt closest to Brixton in terms of, it's a lot more mixture of people.
• 5:17
  Keiron Lewis: It didn't feel much of a cultural shock as if I was going into Winchester.
• 5:21
  Keiron Lewis: But actually, the idea of embracing, different cultures, it links into the work that I do now, weirdly enough.
• 5:27
  Keiron Lewis: And even when I'm going back into, without going too off piece, when I was younger, 16, going to college, we moved from Brixton to Red Hill, which again, it's very, very different.
• 5:36
  Keiron Lewis: It's not as diverse as well.
• 5:37
  Keiron Lewis: So I, from a very young age, I've been able to adapt into getting into a space where I say I was the only person you know, the only black person there and feeling comfortable in my skin and being confident.
• 5:47
  Keiron Lewis: articulate and, go into a space and feel, I deserve to be here too.
• 5:51
  Keiron Lewis: I learned from a young age to kind of channel that energy and apply it to a 21 year old me in, in Winchester, if that makes sense.
• 5:58
  Radim Malinic: makes perfect sense.
• 5:59
  Radim Malinic: And it's interesting because I think you moved to Southampton when I left, 15 years ago, I left Southampton and I've got fond memories.
• 6:05
  Radim Malinic: It's just, I think when you think about generally the digital space, especially now, how we see it from the lens of social media and various sort of platforms, design platforms and use platforms, that it always feels like.
• 6:18
  Radim Malinic: You don't need to live in the capital city to find the inspiration.
• 6:22
  Radim Malinic: It feels like you might be able to turbocharge your career, but requires so much more work resistance, sort of stamina in a way just to say, look, in a big sort of rat race to make this happen because.
• 6:35
  Radim Malinic: the first person that used to live in Southampton on the show, we had James Martin a while ago, and, there's always a connection for some reason, wherever you travel in the world, whatever you do, there's always someone from Southampton or has lived in Southampton or knows someone from Southampton and, yeah, I found personally, I found the place absolutely astounding because the music scene was, yeah, was vibrant.
• 6:55
  Radim Malinic: one one of the people that I met in Southampton actually voiced my audio book, that I was through, through knowing them through Artful Dodger, it's a kind of really interesting small mix, but now we've got people who live in Southampton, Manningham, Maribor State, and it's weird little connections there.
• 7:11
  Radim Malinic: Yeah.
• 7:11
  Radim Malinic: you never know who you might meet in these pockets, especially like you said, the South of Southampton didn't feel too different to London in a certain way.
• 7:18
  Radim Malinic: I mean, I think there was lots of people from London kind of being excited, but you need a broader sort of spirit.
• 7:23
  Radim Malinic: And Yeah.
• 7:24
  Radim Malinic: it's interesting that you had that balance of maybe, but it was real tranquility in Winchester because Winchester, it just seems a lot less rowdy and a lot less sort of chaotic.
• 7:32
  Radim Malinic: So you graduated and where did you sort of, how do we feel that the space between your book work or book design work and the graduation, what did you do in between?
• 7:41
  Keiron Lewis: Oh, let's take that time machine and go back in time.
• 7:45
  Keiron Lewis: so when I was at university, so I actually, I lived with three guys and all three of us, including myself, we worked on a publication, which.
• 7:53
  Keiron Lewis: We were doing this separate to our university's career and that publication allowed us to tap into, you know, editorial design, into people, different people in different disciplines.
• 8:02
  Keiron Lewis: And a bit like a tum, it was a Tumblr, like a Tumblr back in the day where you get people to upload their work.
• 8:07
  Keiron Lewis: In our case, we're doing it in print.
• 8:08
  Keiron Lewis: So people would send in their submissions and we'll filter that content into print.
• 8:12
  Keiron Lewis: so I did that alongside uni and then when I graduated.
• 8:16
  Keiron Lewis: I actually got, found myself an advertising job.
• 8:19
  Keiron Lewis: but I put the magazine, which I worked for with my friends in the portfolio, and I actually put that towards the, I think it was the second project when they first went into it.
• 8:27
  Keiron Lewis: So you had my uni obviously my final uni project was the first one because I wanna sell it of course.
• 8:32
  Keiron Lewis: And then the second one was the magazine.
• 8:34
  Keiron Lewis: And funny enough, when I had that kind of interview, I feel like.
• 8:38
  Keiron Lewis: I was clearly interested in that during that period, you know, that was the thing that I got up for in the mornings.
• 8:42
  Keiron Lewis: I really enjoyed it and I always put that, you know, me getting an opportunity down to the fact that I was generally, passionate about wanting to show how much I enjoyed this, how much I enjoyed magazines and editorial.
• 8:53
  Keiron Lewis: And even though advertising in the place I worked at near Barbican, it wasn't necessarily all by editorial.
• 8:58
  Keiron Lewis: In fact, it was all digital back then it was flash.
• 9:01
  Keiron Lewis: So I ended up getting a job in advertising flash, which again.
• 9:05
  Keiron Lewis: I was very fortunate to be in that space.
• 9:07
  Keiron Lewis: The first world of work opportunity.
• 9:09
  Keiron Lewis: but I kept on doing side projects.
• 9:10
  Keiron Lewis: I kept on working with friends.
• 9:12
  Keiron Lewis: I kept on doing the side hustles, always editorial.
• 9:14
  Keiron Lewis: And I told myself eventually I would like to make this into career, but it's so difficult because like most of creative different spaces.
• 10:05
  Keiron Lewis: I always feel unless you know someone, or maybe, you know, your dad's the editor or director, or something in those spaces, and you're quite fortunate, it's a very, very difficult space to crack, the publishing space.
• 10:16
  Keiron Lewis: and organically, I've made some people, I've met people on the way, had conversations, and then I've been able to make it into a career until now.
• 10:24
  Radim Malinic: There's always a link on this show that people go to somewhere by doing something out of hours, like starting something you don't necessarily start with, Oh, I was employed for 10 years and and this sort of brought me this sort of amazing career and I'm grinding this quote here on, on the podcast to death, which is no risk, no story, you know, like you, you push yourself into, which technically at that time is still.
• 10:48
  Radim Malinic: Cool.
• 10:50
  Radim Malinic: It's comfort, like when you make these little things that actually excite you, as you said, you wake up for them in the morning, they, excite you enough to to do this from up to four o'clock in the morning.
• 11:00
  Radim Malinic: And it's just like something that you're happy to pursue.
• 11:03
  Radim Malinic: And actually it's interesting that you got a job through what technically was a side project.
• 11:07
  Radim Malinic: And I know so many people and had so many stories like how.
• 11:11
  Radim Malinic: little things that you do in your spare time then become the door openers because it's, as you quite rightfully say, like the publishing industry seems shut, is locked properly, you know, like it just seems so antiquated and being on the side as a publisher now, like the reason why I've started my own publishing company, because I didn't really want to wait, any door will open at any point in my life.
• 11:32
  Radim Malinic: So it was like.
• 11:33
  Radim Malinic: You know what, let's Do it my way.
• 11:35
  Radim Malinic: And it's nice.
• 11:35
  Radim Malinic: It's so nice to hear that.
• 11:36
  Radim Malinic: That's how it was.
• 11:38
  Radim Malinic: for you, what I want to know, cause I originally, when I was very much at the beginning of my career, I struggled to navigate too much text.
• 11:47
  Radim Malinic: You know, it was like more about.
• 11:48
  Radim Malinic: the club culture and of the music and you know what I had to do like from my first employment I was like when I had to do like an eight pager I was like oh there's too much copy because it feels like you need a swing you need your timing obviously you need to sort of work out how to work with your words and especially if there's no sort of set templates or like a style guides for pages you're like what do we do here so.
• 12:08
  Radim Malinic: how did it come about, like, that sort of visual language, literally, how did you manage to flow with the words and stuff, like, was there particular inspirations that you have, or how was your start on that?
• 12:18
  Radim Malinic: How did you start?
• 12:19
  Keiron Lewis: that's a good question.
• 12:20
  Keiron Lewis: Where do we start?
• 12:21
  Keiron Lewis: I always, before I jump on.
• 12:24
  Keiron Lewis: Any, design program.
• 12:25
  Keiron Lewis: Obviously InDesign is the thing that I wake up for the most in the mornings.
• 12:28
  Keiron Lewis: I always just have my mobile skin book.
• 12:30
  Keiron Lewis: I'm drawing out, I'm scamping out ideas of how layouts could work.
• 12:33
  Keiron Lewis: you mentioned eight pages and, let's fast forward from uni to just before COVID.
• 12:37
  Keiron Lewis: when I officially went freelance, the first sort of big book I actually did was a 300 page, which when you think of 300 pages, an InDesign doc is to continue a scroll because it's a very meaty, meaty, project.
• 12:50
  Keiron Lewis: But I guess it was all about digestible chunks.
• 12:52
  Keiron Lewis: I would never look at that and think I need to tackle what's the end product.
• 12:55
  Keiron Lewis: It's more section, chapter by chapter.
• 12:58
  Keiron Lewis: And it all started off by me drawing out how things would sit, you know, boxes, lines, all of my scamps, and then translating that across into editorial, um, into the spreads.
• 13:08
  Keiron Lewis: I like to get a feel for balance of imagery with typography as well.
• 13:12
  Keiron Lewis: That's something that I.
• 13:14
  Keiron Lewis: And it's tricky because depending on the amount of content, the publishers or the authors want to really get across, you have to kind of be that gatekeeper to say, it's okay getting how many, you know, thousands of words in a book, but is there ways we can break it up so that people can digest it, you know, I, I like to read, but I wouldn't say I want to, you know, I like imagery, I like graphics, I like things that's, you colorful, shiny things.
• 13:37
  Keiron Lewis: but I guess it's the idea of being, having them to be digestible and see things from a.
• 13:41
  Keiron Lewis: perspective where if you want people to really digest what you're saying and take impact from it, then do it in a way that you're not bombarding them.
• 13:49
  Keiron Lewis: and I guess my role now as a, as an editorial designer is to use my.
• 13:54
  Keiron Lewis: skills and experience of working on books and put forward these opinions when I'm speaking to publishers and say, you know, it's awesome that you approach, but maybe this could potentially be, a way we could tackle this too, obviously in a respectful way.
• 14:05
  Keiron Lewis: And that comes with time because yeah, you have these big brands or brands that, approach and whatnot, and there's ways of how you go about telling them, yeah, it's nice, but.
• 14:13
  Keiron Lewis: there's tactful ways of how you do it.
• 14:15
  Keiron Lewis: And I think over time, I'm still learning of course, but it's, I've done a few projects now and hardback publications that, I'm able to share why I really feel.
• 14:23
  Radim Malinic: quite like you said, the first publication you did was 300 pages.
• 14:28
  Radim Malinic: I always say, again, I think something I might have said on this podcast quite a few times before, but When you go from something which is almost minuscule in comparison to 300 pages, it feels like You're running a marathon without even having shoes, you know, it's just like, Oh my word, how'd you do this And my trick, I remember like doing my first 256 page book.
• 14:48
  Radim Malinic: I remember like getting the page, module in design and filling the screen.
• 14:52
  Radim Malinic: So like the pages actually flow after one another.
• 14:55
  Radim Malinic: So you can see most of the book because it'd be nice to print out and flat plan and whatever.
• 14:59
  Radim Malinic: But you know, when you think like in this scrappy way, like, yeah, we still making it up.
• 15:04
  Radim Malinic: And then.
• 15:04
  Radim Malinic: Going to something which is 64 pages, you're like, that's like flying to Singapore and then flying to Amsterdam, which from, from London, just like that takes a long time to get to Singapore, whereas, in Amsterdam in like 45 minutes, not even half an hour.
• 15:18
  Radim Malinic: And it just feels like it just, then you can shorten, it feels like you've built up an endurance.
• 15:24
  Radim Malinic: But did it feel at first quite chunky, as you said, it was quite a meaty project.
• 15:31
  Radim Malinic: Like, how did you get that sort of stamina, that endurance to actually process it?
• 15:34
  Radim Malinic: Because, I mean, you quite rightfully say you did page by sort of section by section, which is the good thing to do, not the right way to do it.
• 15:40
  Radim Malinic: But was there any, at any point sort of elements of going, oh shit, this is way too much.
• 15:47
  Radim Malinic: What am I doing here?
• 15:48
  Radim Malinic: that kind of stuff, was there any end of that?
• 15:51
  Keiron Lewis: I'd be lying if I said, no, it's the first, that this 300 still breathing a hundred black voices and racism, that was HarperCollins.
• 15:58
  Keiron Lewis: That's the 300 page book.
• 16:00
  Keiron Lewis: And, in that period where I got that project, it was during COVID.
• 16:04
  Keiron Lewis: So we're all at home.
• 16:05
  Keiron Lewis: We can't be meeting in person, obviously during lockdown.
• 16:07
  Keiron Lewis: and my wife and, at the time fiance, we just bought a property.
• 16:10
  Keiron Lewis: So there was a lot of, personal.
• 16:13
  Keiron Lewis: things happening, are you planning weddings?
• 16:15
  Keiron Lewis: Are you having a book?
• 16:16
  Keiron Lewis: And I think when you're working from home, which I think most of us, it was that line between work and personal just merged.
• 16:22
  Keiron Lewis: So there was a lot of stressful things happening from various corners of the brain, of my brain, in that period.
• 16:29
  Keiron Lewis: And to be very honest, the thing that kind of got me through.
• 16:32
  Keiron Lewis: a project of this size was just talking it free of my partner, if I'm honest with you, but we became obviously a husband wife now.
• 16:38
  Keiron Lewis: but also even close in terms of, friends as well.
• 16:40
  Keiron Lewis: she's also works in the creative space as well.
• 16:42
  Keiron Lewis: So that helps.
• 16:43
  Keiron Lewis: So I'm able to share thoughts, how would you tackle it?
• 16:45
  Keiron Lewis: she loves reading as well.
• 16:46
  Keiron Lewis: She reads a lot more than I do, actually, to be fair.
• 16:48
  Keiron Lewis: So she also has quite a bit of an editorial brain to her as well.
• 16:51
  Keiron Lewis: And I think that helps to speak things through and think, Let's tackle this in a strategic way.
• 16:57
  Keiron Lewis: And one thing that came to mind was before even the content was even, not all the content was supplied to me.
• 17:03
  Keiron Lewis: it was in sections cause a hundred people that was featured in the book.
• 17:06
  Keiron Lewis: So each person had to send through content at various times.
• 17:09
  Keiron Lewis: And it was during COVID.
• 17:10
  Keiron Lewis: So you can imagine people were sending this beautiful high res imagery and some people were sending almost like pics.
• 17:18
  Keiron Lewis: I won't say names, of course, but it was just, it was wild.
• 17:20
  Keiron Lewis: And I think One thing I did was color code.
• 17:23
  Keiron Lewis: I started to color code things.
• 17:24
  Keiron Lewis: So what I mean by that is I spoke to the team at HarperCollins and I was like, okay, let's make a system whereby you send me what you have.
• 17:30
  Keiron Lewis: I'll go through it.
• 17:31
  Keiron Lewis: If it's good, it's a green.
• 17:32
  Keiron Lewis: If it's, something that I can salvage, I need a bit of Photoshopping, editing to make it sharper.
• 17:36
  Keiron Lewis: It's an orange.
• 17:37
  Keiron Lewis: And if it's just, Oh my God, this is terrible.
• 17:39
  Keiron Lewis: It's a red and it seems really simple, but that worked really well.
• 17:43
  Keiron Lewis: And for a hundred people, section by section, we started to, get a real method in place.
• 17:48
  Keiron Lewis: and that was, that kind of helped me a lot.
• 17:49
  Keiron Lewis: And then obviously the imagery comes in, the content comes in, and then it feels 300 pages sounds a lot, but then when you start to read digest it, like actually, this is so manageable.
• 17:58
  Keiron Lewis: And then when the book was, going off piece, not too much, but when the book was done, it's surprising when you flick through the pages and you think, I remember every single page, obviously I would because I designed it, but.
• 18:08
  Keiron Lewis: When you're designing and you're in the zone for that period of time, it's amazing how quickly you adapt and you draw comfort in knowing every single page, I remember doing this.
• 18:18
  Keiron Lewis: And it doesn't feel like it's a distant memory because you spent so much time and effort.
• 18:23
  Radim Malinic: you mentioned it, you did it in Covid.
• 18:25
  Radim Malinic: was that your only project or do you do juggle?
• 18:28
  Radim Malinic: Do you do more than one project at a time?
• 18:30
  Keiron Lewis: during that period, it was the, I think I had other projects on, but that, this was definitely the biggest one that's a no brainer.
• 18:37
  Keiron Lewis: so I had that as well.
• 18:39
  Keiron Lewis: And also the Adobe connection as well.
• 18:40
  Keiron Lewis: I go, Adobe reached out for Adobe live, which I'm sure we'll touch on as well.
• 18:45
  Keiron Lewis: so I, to answer your question, I had the Still Breathing book on and a few other smaller ones, but this was the one that really took my attention and the one that I thought.
• 18:54
  Keiron Lewis: If I make a real good go at this, it could really open some doors to working more on publication, not just with this publisher, but others as well.
• 19:01
  Keiron Lewis: So I think I had a bit of a super say and moment where I'm like, I'm going to make this work, in that period of time.
• 19:07
  Radim Malinic: I think the results shows that you met.
• 19:08
  Radim Malinic: Definitely made it.
• 19:09
  Radim Malinic: Made it happen.
• 19:10
  Radim Malinic: So I've got two part questions.
• 19:12
  Radim Malinic: So obviously we talked about the publishing industry being quite closed doors, but you managed to get your meaty first proper book project.
• 19:20
  Radim Malinic: How did that happen?
• 19:21
  Radim Malinic: How did you manage to finally crack that through that eyes, to be visible?
• 19:25
  Radim Malinic: And, and how long did it take in the end to actually do the book?
• 19:29
  Radim Malinic: how did you get them and how long did it take?
• 19:31
  Keiron Lewis: I'll start with the easiest question.
• 19:32
  Keiron Lewis: So how long it took, it was, actually beginning of the year.
• 19:35
  Keiron Lewis: So it would have been Jan Feb time.
• 19:36
  Keiron Lewis: And by I think by near end of May, we were pretty much done.
• 19:41
  Keiron Lewis: We were sending final proofs, if not everything to kind of print.
• 19:45
  Keiron Lewis: so we were in a good place by May, June time, but in terms of how I got the project, and this is where I think it touched on the very beginning about.
• 19:52
  Keiron Lewis: people you know in the spaces.
• 19:54
  Keiron Lewis: so let's go back to when I was in, obviously my full time jobs.
• 19:57
  Keiron Lewis: I also volunteered at a platform called TEDx Houston and there was a person in that team, Nancy Adamora, who's an incredible creative, she works at HarperCollins, but she also volunteered at TEDx as well.
• 20:07
  Keiron Lewis: So we've worked together on the project for about three years and she put my name in the hat as someone who just went freelance and also looking to editorial.
• 20:15
  Keiron Lewis: So I think it was a case of I wouldn't say a risk, because obviously Nancy hopefully vouched for me, but then again, it's one thing to put the name forward of the person, but then it's up to the people, the powers that be to think.
• 20:27
  Keiron Lewis: Are we going to be able to trust a person with a publication of this caliber?
• 20:31
  Keiron Lewis: so a lot of it was a little bit, I'm in the door, but now I've got to prove myself, if that makes sense.
• 20:35
  Keiron Lewis: so yeah, that was my space into it and it helped people.
• 20:37
  Keiron Lewis: I'm not going to try and pretend like it didn't.
• 20:39
  Keiron Lewis: and then the rest was kind of history.
• 20:41
  Keiron Lewis: Can we've done a few books now together, me and HarperCollins, which is nice.
• 20:43
  Keiron Lewis: And then you start to grow connections with the team and yeah.
• 20:47
  Radim Malinic: think what you said, I think you volunteered.
• 20:49
  Radim Malinic: I think it's necessary.
• 20:50
  Radim Malinic: who you know is because you actually put yourself in that space because you say, I'll do this for free.
• 20:55
  Radim Malinic: Obviously, I want to do this for the right cause.
• 20:58
  Radim Malinic: And I think that's when the connections are being made rather than hoping that you'll be waving your portfolio outside, somewhere and going, it's me.
• 21:05
  Radim Malinic: Look, I've got InDesign on my computer, which it obviously doesn't work that way because I always believe that people buy you.
• 21:12
  Radim Malinic: People buy into your soul and the reason why you do it is because if you go down almost like a work in philosophy which is quite hard to come by at first because we don't necessarily have work in philosophies when we start being like I want to do, I want to be in, in, in design every day.
• 21:28
  Radim Malinic: I want to be in Photoshop every day.
• 21:29
  Radim Malinic: I want to be in Figma or whatever.
• 21:30
  Radim Malinic: I want to do this because we do it for the craft, for the almost like physical aspect of this, rather than, what can I actually do with my creativity?
• 21:37
  Radim Malinic: who can I talk to?
• 21:38
  Radim Malinic: What can I, how can I enrich other people's lives and how I can actually give back?
• 21:42
  Radim Malinic: Or how can I give away my sort of creativity?
• 21:44
  Radim Malinic: I think that's interesting because I think it's important that you said that you were freelancing.
• 21:48
  Radim Malinic: I'm sorry, were you volunteering for TEDx?
• 21:50
  Radim Malinic: Because.
• 21:51
  Radim Malinic: That, it's, that's the first step.
• 21:53
  Radim Malinic: It's not necessarily Oh, look, I've designed books.
• 21:55
  Radim Malinic: I want to design books.
• 21:56
  Radim Malinic: It's can I be part of this?
• 21:57
  Radim Malinic: And I found it very many times is the sort of right thing to do first.
• 22:01
  Keiron Lewis: A hundred percent.
• 22:02
  Keiron Lewis: And the thing that I don't really touch on that much, which is very important is the people skills you get when you do a voluntary job.
• 22:09
  Keiron Lewis: Because, I was doing this whilst in full time, in an advertising space, and it's one thing to, you got your skillset, but the people skills, i.
• 22:16
  Keiron Lewis: e.
• 22:17
  Keiron Lewis: being able to articulate yourself well on your designs or being able to work in a team based environment.
• 22:22
  Keiron Lewis: I feel like there was a lot of things I learned.
• 22:24
  Keiron Lewis: In terms of sharpening my people skills in the voluntary team, which I then applied it into my full time space.
• 22:30
  Keiron Lewis: And then you go into the freelance world where it's, you, your own, in your studio, and then you still have to use these skills to try and find, potential clients.
• 22:37
  Keiron Lewis: So it's a learning curve, just not just with the skill sets, but also the people skills too.
• 22:42
  Radim Malinic: Yeah, you got a right point there.
• 22:43
  Radim Malinic: Cause I actually, you were helping me with a segue to what I wanted to talk about is that you said a few questions before, that you have people to improve the visual style, you can make yourself heard and say, look, we can do something in which we might be even better than this.
• 23:00
  Radim Malinic: And I always feel like, yes, you need the people skills and you you need to have even lift a bit or have worked a bit just to make the right choices because it's so easy to see the work from like the personal lens, Look, this is my name, this is how I see the world, and I think everyone should follow me.
• 23:14
  Radim Malinic: And you're like, you've only been here for two minutes, what are you trying to tell us?
• 23:17
  Radim Malinic: And I'm like, I've got all the excitement and everything, listen to me, what have you got?
• 23:21
  Radim Malinic: I've got that choice.
• 23:22
  Radim Malinic: I'm like, we did that choice 20 years ago and it didn't work.
• 23:25
  Radim Malinic: it's just like knowing how to listen to people and how to chip in with the right stuff, because it can be sometimes quite frustrating when people say you're the creative one here, what do you think?
• 23:34
  Radim Malinic: I'm like, again, I've been here for two minutes, even though I've been doing it for 20 years.
• 23:37
  Radim Malinic: I just need to know what's happening.
• 23:39
  Radim Malinic: It's just like dropping you in a maze and go, which direction?
• 23:42
  Radim Malinic: because I build a maze doesn't mean only because I've worked on mazes.
• 23:45
  Radim Malinic: hopefully that makes sense.
• 23:46
  Radim Malinic: But.
• 23:47
  Radim Malinic: Would you, how would you say with the sort of creative compromise and creative conflict, how do you go from, with the getting the topic, getting concepts, the idea of the content, like, how does it go from that process to actually having those conversations about what the art direction could be like?
• 24:05
  Radim Malinic: what is your creative process and how does it go?
• 24:08
  Keiron Lewis: say at the very beginning when we've, when the client and I've had a conversation, and actually just to put it out there, a lot of my clients now tend to be us based, which means we can't meet for a coffee, we can't, grab a bite and talk things through, which is always A tricky one because like how we're having a conversation now, you know online it's there's a screen blocking So there's no you can't you can only tell up to a certain point what someone is You know the vibe they're getting based on what you're saying and so forth when I speak to a client and we try and go through what they want and what things we want to achieve transparency, I always mention that from the very get go and that's that could be up to down to the fact that if they suggest something which I could potentially do in the project.
• 24:50
  Keiron Lewis: If it's not in my skill sets, I'm not going to pretend like I can do it.
• 24:53
  Keiron Lewis: One, I don't want to make a fool of myself and two, I don't want to waste the time of the individual.
• 24:57
  Keiron Lewis: So I'm always very honest about that.
• 24:59
  Keiron Lewis: I know, what I can do in terms of my skill sets.
• 25:02
  Keiron Lewis: I've got a lot of friends who can do other stuff, but I am very honest when it comes to that.
• 25:04
  Keiron Lewis: And I always say, that can also be deadlines as well.
• 25:07
  Keiron Lewis: Is it realistic?
• 25:08
  Keiron Lewis: we're going to get this done, but are we doing it in a way?
• 25:11
  Keiron Lewis: To get it done quickly to meet a deadline?
• 25:13
  Keiron Lewis: Or is it because it needs some time to maybe, to digest, can we get more content, can we get better con you know, there's all these elements and I, put this out there very early on, which could be, and I wouldn't say shooting myself in the foot, but I think, I like to say.
• 25:26
  Keiron Lewis: This is a weird thing to say, but if you were to line up some of the clients that I've worked with, mainly publishers, and, say, oh, what's one thing that ties together everything we do with Kieran, I'd like to think it would be the transparency and the honesty.
• 25:37
  Keiron Lewis: I think another thing as well is feedback.
• 25:39
  Keiron Lewis: with the men's, because that's a, tricky one.
• 25:41
  Keiron Lewis: especially when it's book design, because it's very, there's a lot of, spinning plates, and there's a lot of people that will have loads of different opinions.
• 25:48
  Keiron Lewis: again, I will send over, my PDF of course, but I always say to the client, give yourself, a day to digest it, but let's have a call.
• 25:57
  Keiron Lewis: Let's have a call when you digest in a post to it, you send me an email and tell me what you think.
• 26:01
  Keiron Lewis: Let's have that call.
• 26:02
  Keiron Lewis: If we're in the UK, let's have a chat in person because I can.
• 26:07
  Keiron Lewis: Receive feedback a lot more easier when I hear it directly from yourself rather than a written email, because then I understand what you're saying.
• 26:14
  Keiron Lewis: And also I'm able to return back with what I think is well based on what you said.
• 26:19
  Keiron Lewis: and again, it is that element of trying to make it work and then over time, hopefully it does.
• 26:25
  Radim Malinic: I love that you say transparency because you say what you can do and you say what you can't do because it's so easy to say, I'll do everything, then you're trying to work it out and I can, we can definitely speak from experience where you take on briefs and you're like, You sit there sort of pretending, you know, everything go home, like how the flip am I going to work out how to do this?
• 26:45
  Radim Malinic: And sometimes it's a good challenge and sometimes you have to put your hand up like, Hey, listen, I don't think it's the best fit, you know, I think I could help you, but your transparency, it's shows your integrity.
• 26:57
  Radim Malinic: Obviously how you work as a designer, as a creative, because.
• 27:01
  Radim Malinic: At this day and age, I think, especially given the level of general anxiety and insecurity about how the world is spinning, how the inflation's working, there's a lack of budgets and that kind of stuff.
• 27:12
  Radim Malinic: Of course, there's always been work being done, but you have to be in the right place at the right time for it.
• 27:17
  Radim Malinic: But so it's, for some people, it's obviously quite easy to say, I can do this only to make a hash of it, you know, only to make a bad job of it.
• 27:23
  Radim Malinic: So I think that's very honorable and absolutely, admire and appreciate that.
• 27:28
  Keiron Lewis: But also as well, just for anyone's listening.
• 27:30
  Keiron Lewis: And again, it's, you mentioned the idea of everyone wants to do everything because we feel like we have to just to give an example of where.
• 27:38
  Keiron Lewis: The transparency worked and it paid off.
• 27:40
  Keiron Lewis: in the future was, was actually, there was a project which came about publication and they required more of an illustrator to be honest than an actual graphic designer.
• 27:46
  Keiron Lewis: I, I'm not an illustrator so I won't claim to be, but the beauty of being freelancer is that, you know, a lot of people in the creative space, And freelancers.
• 27:53
  Keiron Lewis: So I put forward an illustrator, and they ended up getting the role, but it was a case of, because I was able to be of use to them and still put forward someone.
• 28:02
  Keiron Lewis: we've still done work together and it was rather than me saying, sorry, can't do it.
• 28:06
  Keiron Lewis: Find someone else.
• 28:06
  Keiron Lewis: You're still of value.
• 28:08
  Keiron Lewis: that sounds horrible to say value, but you know what I mean?
• 28:09
  Keiron Lewis: You can still help out.
• 28:11
  Keiron Lewis: and I think that's sometimes there's a good thing to being transparent.
• 28:15
  Keiron Lewis: Of course there is, but there's also the idea of people knowing they can trust what you're saying and it's of value too.
• 28:20
  Keiron Lewis: It does pay off.
• 28:22
  Radim Malinic: Yeah, I mean, you can say the value equals service.
• 28:24
  Radim Malinic: It's just like, how can it be useful?
• 28:25
  Radim Malinic: Because, yeah, being an enabler of collaborations, you never know.
• 28:30
  Radim Malinic: I think there's something really exciting about putting friends and People that you know into roles because you know, you can't do them and you know that you want them to be busy and happy and working.
• 28:40
  Radim Malinic: So I think that always pays back.
• 28:41
  Radim Malinic: what I want to talk about next was that you mentioned feedback and I wanted to know what sort of collaborative tools you use because you say you send off a PDF and then give them a few times, a few days to digest and reflect, which is obviously like, I think a godsend because there's nothing worse being in a, boardroom showing something and then like just watch The instant hateful for the most innate things like yellow, really?
• 29:03
  Radim Malinic: Or like just, if there's anything, like anyone who is at, especially at the beginning of their creative career, like avoid the reveal that no one knows what they're expecting because I've been using loom, the platform or the plugin for videos for anyone, for briefs, for team, for feedback.
• 29:19
  Radim Malinic: And I record a loom.
• 29:22
  Radim Malinic: Attach it to the PDF and like, here it is, let's speak to me in a week, send it to everyone, send it to your mom, send it to your nan, send it to your cat, and your rabbit, whatever, like, let's get that feedback because as you know, like that, that dance of creativity is you've got, sometimes you have the idea first strike, you have it.
• 29:38
  Radim Malinic: Because you worked on it, it was like, I don't know if your creative process goes through and we can talk about it, it goes through like stages of we don't make something until we know what really we want to make.
• 29:48
  Radim Malinic: we don't necessarily sort of try ideas and see if A or B it works better.
• 29:52
  Radim Malinic: But with the video stuff, it helps to give people time to, to actually say, you know what?
• 29:59
  Radim Malinic: Does it actually fit every space?
• 30:01
  Radim Malinic: Do we validate it?
• 30:03
  Radim Malinic: I said, as you said, with something as meaty as, a 300 page booklet, a book, or, which is 150 spreads.
• 30:11
  Radim Malinic: What tools do you use to actually make the workflow really good?
• 30:14
  Radim Malinic: Do you use like the InDesign feature for, or do you use Nodes, or how do you guys, how do you guys do it?
• 30:21
  Keiron Lewis: notes is always quite, it's interesting, the different publishers that I work with.
• 30:25
  Keiron Lewis: And of course I love them all got a disclaimer, but they're all very different and they all have their own different ways of working, which is an obvious one, but they really do.
• 30:32
  Keiron Lewis: And, you mentioned the notes feature in InDesign, which I do use quite often as well, and even Acrobat PDF, when we do notes as well.
• 30:38
  Keiron Lewis: if we're going to go back even earlier stages of design, the visual mood board, rather than just, collating a few examples of potential, inspiration for spreads or covers, rather than just plopping the imagery in and send it off, I also annotate.
• 30:50
  Keiron Lewis: the imageries that I find, not all of them, if there's say, I don't know, nine, maybe 12 on a page, maybe four that I think, are noticeable, I will actually put a note on PDF Acrobat and they can click into that and actually, they'll see the various 12 that I've picked out.
• 31:05
  Keiron Lewis: But then these particular four ones that I think we really could.
• 31:08
  Keiron Lewis: Really could work with.
• 31:10
  Keiron Lewis: so yeah, those are quite good features that I use.
• 31:12
  Keiron Lewis: in terms of video calls, obviously, you know, I'll be using my Zoom quite often as, as much as we can.
• 31:16
  Keiron Lewis: but the thing that I want to use more often.
• 31:19
  Keiron Lewis: And maybe this is my Adobe hat now being plugged on, is on, Adobe express where you can, you know, I think it's when you send off a piece of work and I'm not talking now just editorial, maybe it could be a poster design, for example, other type of branding that I do for other clients, the thing that a client sometimes tends to always want is social media graphics or assets that they can then take on themselves.
• 31:38
  Keiron Lewis: and apply, which makes sense.
• 31:40
  Keiron Lewis: on Adobe express, you have platforms where, you create it and they're able to edit it, without moving or destroying or, demolishing the design in its fruition.
• 31:47
  Keiron Lewis: but I think that's quite cool.
• 31:48
  Keiron Lewis: It's just a case of maybe is the client willing to want to know about that or learn about that?
• 31:53
  Keiron Lewis: Cause it can be tough to say, oh, there's this great tool.
• 31:56
  Keiron Lewis: and obviously there's loads of great tools out there, but just using one in particular, like the express where.
• 32:01
  Keiron Lewis: I know how to use it, you probably know how to use it, but other people on the other end, who's not necessarily a creative if they took a bit of time to understand just the basics, then actually they would know that down the line, they could do some more to help out, so there's always that elements as well.
• 32:13
  Keiron Lewis: And we are, we're a stubborn breed.
• 32:15
  Keiron Lewis: I'm very stubborn as well.
• 32:16
  Keiron Lewis: My wife will tell you that.
• 32:17
  Keiron Lewis: so I guess it is, we're stuck in our ways.
• 32:19
  Keiron Lewis: And if it works, we don't go down that path, but there's other ways we can explore, you know, to maybe make things more streamlined.
• 32:25
  Radim Malinic: Definitely on, on the part of the stubbornness, but I think the stubbornness becomes less in the supplied, like the older you get from personal experience, you want to fight every fire, you know, when you're younger and then you go, actually, what am I here for?
• 32:38
  Radim Malinic: I want to actually make this.
• 32:40
  Radim Malinic: for what it should be rather than what I think it's to be, you know, I think you try to sort of you, you want to change the world in a different way rather than from your own personal, as I said earlier, from your own perspective, like actually what do we want to do rather than that.
• 32:52
  Keiron Lewis: Now you mentioned as well, going back, I think you mentioned about staying up until 4am, doing some work.
• 32:56
  Keiron Lewis: And I remember those days of staying up at 4am, hashtagging, hashing out, sorry, my, final major projects.
• 33:02
  Keiron Lewis: And yeah, now that I've got a new dad recently, there's no way I'm staying up until 4am unless I really have to physically just cannot do it.
• 33:08
  Keiron Lewis: so yeah, when you're young, you need a bit more energy to really make those projects work.
• 33:12
  Radim Malinic: Yeah, I think with the creativity, we think that the, the stubbornness and the time that we've got for creativities and so plentiful, but as a new parent, I'm a double parent, if I can say that way, the double, no, just, and to have a creative time or to have time to do even things like this.
• 33:29
  Radim Malinic: It always has to be done when the kids are in school or they're asleep because life changes.
• 33:34
  Radim Malinic: And you can sometimes think like, you know what?
• 33:36
  Radim Malinic: I used to cherish those 16 hours days.
• 33:39
  Radim Malinic: I was like, this was the best thing in the world.
• 33:42
  Radim Malinic: But now I'm logged in dishwasher.
• 33:44
  Radim Malinic: I'm doing school runs.
• 33:45
  Radim Malinic: I'm, running around like you're doing things and you're like.
• 33:48
  Radim Malinic: As that quote says that the only people that will remember that you worked late in 20 years will be your kids.
• 33:53
  Radim Malinic: Like literally there, there is no price for working for every hour because the longer you do it, you should be smart.
• 34:01
  Radim Malinic: You should have processes in place, collaborators in place, because at the beginning of our careers, it's so easy to say, you know what, this project requires 12 different steps.
• 34:10
  Radim Malinic: I can do 11 of those easy.
• 34:12
  Radim Malinic: I can do them.
• 34:12
  Radim Malinic: I can, it's all just about a software using it in a different way.
• 34:15
  Radim Malinic: And you teach yourself and you become more rounded and you give yourself that sort of that knowledge of Oh, this is how the creative process works.
• 34:21
  Radim Malinic: I can put it all together, but to do those 12 steps forever or 11 steps out of 12.
• 34:27
  Radim Malinic: It's kind of foolish because unless you really want to do that thing and it pays you so well that you can focus on this, you're going to burn out time wise, you're going to, that's why I wanted to know how long your book projects take and like how, not how you do it because it's so easy to overload yourself and it's so easy to take on stuff.
• 34:44
  Radim Malinic: So yeah, it's quite yeah, it's quite beneficial just to have a few hours and go, I'm going to make most out of it.
• 34:50
  Keiron Lewis: A hundred percent, you know, everything you said straight away, like the one where it came to my perspective as well, because think over, I'm 32, 33 and, in a month or so time and my brain, when I think back, To a younger version of me and the idea of just being eager, not too eager, but just maybe slightly impulsive or maybe not so much patience.
• 35:09
  Keiron Lewis: There's an, there's an element of, and I'm not going to get into too much of a dad mode thing here, but you, it's the unknown where you have no other choice, but just let things happen and embrace it.
• 35:18
  Keiron Lewis: and that's just me talking simply of being a new dad.
• 35:22
  Keiron Lewis: and I think now I, there's a better sense of perspective of, is this necessary?
• 35:27
  Keiron Lewis: at first it always has to be necessary, but now it's just is it really though?
• 35:30
  Keiron Lewis: So yeah, I really question myself, I think more on that and I think that's probably the best, strongest life lesson I've got, maybe even being a dad now.
• 35:36
  Keiron Lewis: but you've obviously mentioned you have too, so I'm learning from you, but early days for me.
• 35:42
  Radim Malinic: My wife calls it the aqua gliding.
• 35:44
  Radim Malinic: You know, when you drive it on black ice, you just have to accept it.
• 35:47
  Radim Malinic: and kids are beautiful.
• 35:50
  Radim Malinic: I love my children so much and they can be personalities.
• 35:54
  Radim Malinic: I've got a girl who's nearly eight and my boy is four.
• 35:58
  Radim Malinic: He's pre Christmas baby.
• 36:00
  Radim Malinic: And I don't remember having that much of a vocal personality when I was young, but.
• 36:07
  Radim Malinic: obviously we have invented emotional intelligence, since I was born and since you've been born.
• 36:12
  Radim Malinic: And I said, I'm making a joke, obviously we are more aware of what the little people around us need and how to listen to them better, how to accept how they feel.
• 36:20
  Radim Malinic: And I always said in my, one of my talks and actually in my second book, I said that creative work is like dealing with a toddler.
• 36:29
  Radim Malinic: what do you want?
• 36:29
  Radim Malinic: I don't know.
• 36:30
  Radim Malinic: When do you want it?
• 36:31
  Radim Malinic: Yesterday.
• 36:31
  Radim Malinic: I want it now.
• 36:32
  Radim Malinic: I wanted this.
• 36:33
  Radim Malinic: This is what you want.
• 36:34
  Radim Malinic: Yeah.
• 36:34
  Radim Malinic: This is what you get.
• 36:35
  Radim Malinic: No, I don't want that.
• 36:36
  Radim Malinic: Oh, really?
• 36:37
  Radim Malinic: What?
• 36:37
  Radim Malinic: You said me.
• 36:38
  Radim Malinic: No, I never said that.
• 36:38
  Radim Malinic: And you're just like, that's like dealing with clients.
• 36:40
  Radim Malinic: what do you want?
• 36:42
  Radim Malinic: Something.
• 36:43
  Radim Malinic: Okay.
• 36:43
  Radim Malinic: Here's something.
• 36:44
  Radim Malinic: I don't want something.
• 36:44
  Radim Malinic: it's, and it reminds me of that sketch by, I wish I know her name.
• 36:48
  Radim Malinic: she talks about her toddler.
• 36:50
  Radim Malinic: Female comedian talks about her toddler son and she said that after a like relentless argument with her three year old boy, she says, you can have whatever you want.
• 37:01
  Radim Malinic: And he screamed back at her.
• 37:03
  Radim Malinic: I don't know.
• 37:04
  Radim Malinic: No, I don't want whatever I want.
• 37:06
  Radim Malinic: And it's just once you start aqua gliding, once you start thinking about, you know what, let's step back and let's listen to the situation because again, We are pre programmed wanting to have the reality to be in a certain way, like we've seen from our parents, know, like we had to conform to certain sort of expectations and, you know, we have to be somewhere, somehow, like we didn't make our own decisions as much as we should have done.
• 37:29
  Radim Malinic: And we were told that we should be something somehow, somewhere, that's why sort of creative careers are still Considered oh, you want to do that?
• 37:35
  Radim Malinic: That's a scary one.
• 37:36
  Radim Malinic: You know, do you want to be a lawyer?
• 37:37
  Radim Malinic: Do you want to be a dentist or whatever?
• 37:40
  Radim Malinic: And you can feel like, lots of people do it.
• 37:42
  Radim Malinic: why not?
• 37:42
  Radim Malinic: Why can't I?
• 37:44
  Keiron Lewis: I love that you mentioned lawyer because my dad's, my family are all very law orientated, so my dad's a lawyer, mum's a solicitor, so sorry probation work, I should say, I get this completely mixed up.
• 37:53
  Keiron Lewis: so yeah, and obviously I'm a graphic designer, so slightly off piece, but yeah, there is, and without going way too off piece, it's even from a cultural perspective as well.
• 38:02
  Keiron Lewis: There's elements, I'm, born in England, but my family is split Jamaican and Nigerian, and there's also elements from growing up in terms of what careers you should be doing, or careers that would pay the best, or ones that are more realistic, And I think without, again, keeping it very short here, but there's something quite nice about when it's a book that I make, I can physically, something tangible, I can physically show my parents and my grandparents, they might not fully get what I do, but when I show them a book and they like it and I say, Oh, grandma actually made that.
• 38:29
  Keiron Lewis: plants a seed in their head and think, Oh, this is okay.
• 38:31
  Keiron Lewis: He actually, he's not bad at his job.
• 38:32
  Keiron Lewis: He can actually make, and I think that's enough to sell it.
• 38:35
  Keiron Lewis: Even at 32, just about to say I've got a proper job, grandma.
• 38:39
  Keiron Lewis: Yeah.
• 38:41
  Radim Malinic: Yeah.
• 38:42
  Radim Malinic: when you think about it from when you are 20 years older, this will feel almost, and I've said, say it kindly, it almost feels absurd because There's so many people with such random jobs now that their careers, you know, obviously we've got beige cladded influencers, flogging some skincare or whatever, and they make money out of this.
• 39:03
  Radim Malinic: I feel like we've just opened this Pandora box of anything that can be anything.
• 39:07
  Radim Malinic: And when you talk about grandparents, I remember my gran was like, when I was 14 and I needed money for some instruments, she was like, Can you read music?
• 39:17
  Radim Malinic: I'm like, no, because I want to play death metal, you know, just basically as much noise.
• 39:21
  Radim Malinic: She's like, once you can read the music, I'll help you and buy an instrument.
• 39:24
  Radim Malinic: I'm like, that makes sense.
• 39:26
  Radim Malinic: But that's how you don't start careers and fires by conforming to the process.
• 39:32
  Radim Malinic: It's good to have a sort of stop check and go, okay, I want to make books.
• 39:37
  Radim Malinic: I've been making zines.
• 39:38
  Radim Malinic: How do you actually make a book?
• 39:39
  Radim Malinic: How do you learn about it?
• 39:41
  Radim Malinic: Because Once you learn that, sort of learn the mechanics of like, okay, there's a certain amount of words on the page, and obviously we've got a certain type size, which we've got certain rules to respect.
• 39:51
  Radim Malinic: There's certain things we can break, certain things that we can actually reinvent and make things more interesting, because we live in an amazing time where the books are still selling more and more year over year.
• 40:00
  Radim Malinic: Like we've created such an amazing, we didn't create anything.
• 40:04
  Radim Malinic: Just be, we try to do something better with it.
• 40:06
  Radim Malinic: And it's quite nice that when you put yourself out there into the medium and try to sort of surprise people and make them feel something, it just pays back.
• 40:15
  Radim Malinic: amazing that I can talk to you about like, how do you do it?
• 40:18
  Radim Malinic: And how do you see it?
• 40:19
  Radim Malinic: Because if you don't put yourself, don't put your soul in it, then it would be just black and white paper bags, until.
• 40:26
  Radim Malinic: One Day We Stop.
• 40:28
  Radim Malinic: So I want to talk about some of your books that have been very prominent.
• 40:32
  Radim Malinic: And I think it was a, remind me of the title, it was the Brownies book.
• 40:36
  Radim Malinic: and there was the 100, we talked about 100 book as well.
• 40:40
  Radim Malinic: So Brownies is the latest release.
• 40:43
  Radim Malinic: Is that right?
• 40:43
  Radim Malinic: I
• 40:45
  Keiron Lewis: the latest book.
• 40:45
  Keiron Lewis: Yes.
• 40:46
  Keiron Lewis: so that came out in the UK in December, but in the U S in November, slightly early, so the new Brownies book, it was a publication.
• 40:54
  Keiron Lewis: the Brownies book, I should say, it was actually, it was originally a magazine that was created back in the 1920s.
• 40:58
  Keiron Lewis: and it was a publication, a magazine that would basically, it was titled Brownies Books, but for the Children of the Sun.
• 41:04
  Keiron Lewis: So it would primarily feature, young black people, young black children, I should say, and share, stories and, poetry or empowerment, basically, and to inspire.
• 41:13
  Keiron Lewis: and then it was Charlie Palmer and, Carida Brown, who, the two authors, who basically worked with, Chronicles Publications, and myself, obviously, to basically reinvent the magazine into now this publication that we see today.
• 41:26
  Keiron Lewis: and again, we've just got, it's more for a modern day audience, and the book's full of poetry, essays, photographs, paintings, all about black excellence and, reflecting on joy and how we can be inspired by the different stories.
• 41:39
  Keiron Lewis: and it's, been cool.
• 41:40
  Keiron Lewis: It's, cool is probably not a very light word to say, but it's.
• 41:44
  Keiron Lewis: had a lot of impacts I can physically, I can see not just in the UK, but a lot in the U S they're based in the U S so obviously it would be, but the UK, and I think it was more seeing how people are responding to the stories and reading it and, getting the copy.
• 41:57
  Keiron Lewis: Cause when you get the book and I wish I had a copy to show you on the screen, but you can see it on my website.
• 42:01
  Keiron Lewis: it's a big book, it's a coffee book kind of shape and it's.
• 42:04
  Keiron Lewis: It's got a beautiful gold spine, slightly embossed, and it feels like something you want to just have and keep.
• 42:09
  Keiron Lewis: I'm not just saying it to be biased, obviously, maybe I am a bit, but there's an element to it that feels like you want to treasure it, and I've got a special connection to this.
• 42:17
  Keiron Lewis: That and obviously The Still Breathing, because The Still Breathing is obviously the first book I made, but those two books I think are real standout ones, out of ones I've Made over the past few years, it means a lot, but most of the books I do, it always encompasses this idea of, the community, and working within the black community itself in particular.
• 42:32
  Keiron Lewis: So there's always an underlining theme with all the books that I tend to create.
• 42:37
  Radim Malinic: to talk about production budgets, because Inflation's rife, production is getting more expensive.
• 42:42
  Radim Malinic: Paper's getting more expensive year on year.
• 42:44
  Radim Malinic: sometimes it goes up and down and, we never know.
• 42:47
  Radim Malinic: We might know what budgets it might be left with and what you can do.
• 42:50
  Radim Malinic: But.
• 42:51
  Radim Malinic: When it comes to these publishers, you mentioned the production values of the big coffee table book is, as you said, an object that you wish you have, like you wish everyone in the house.
• 42:59
  Radim Malinic: And over the years, our parents have collected some amazing coffee books, coffee table books.
• 43:04
  Radim Malinic: So in terms of the production, is there a set?
• 43:09
  Radim Malinic: Size and format, like how much is actually, how much can you work with and how much can you influence because you said it was to sometimes you've got some steer voice in the production, but books are expensive unless they're printed in China, even though if you make a coffee table book, that's still expensive.
• 43:25
  Radim Malinic: So how does this come about from, especially from the production perspective?
• 43:30
  Keiron Lewis: There's a real tactfulness that's needed.
• 43:32
  Keiron Lewis: I Not going to off put, I love watching The Apprentice.
• 43:37
  Keiron Lewis: And I'll tell you why, just because I think it's that element of, it's not a little bit like that, but I think there is an element of understanding.
• 43:43
  Keiron Lewis: what the budget is, what is possible in that budget, but also how can we get the best deliverable possible and there's ways of how you would go about it.
• 43:50
  Keiron Lewis: So in this case, for example, the Brownies book, I worked with a wonderful editor on the team, Alison, and basically she was my main point of contact and we started doing the spreads, we had these ideas for covers and we knew the size already, of course, because I've designed in my own design to that spread, to that size, but we didn't know what the cover would be.
• 44:07
  Keiron Lewis: We didn't know.
• 44:09
  Keiron Lewis: what materials we might use.
• 44:10
  Keiron Lewis: and they're just, I had opportunity to really share, thoughts on what I feel we could do for the cover to make it as impactful as possible.
• 44:18
  Keiron Lewis: so that was a good example of having a bit more influence, being able to do it.
• 44:22
  Keiron Lewis: the still breathing, going back to that one again, more.
• 44:28
  Keiron Lewis: Influenced, more of a chance to get involved in then anticipated actually, because again, with publishers, they can be a little bit more reserved.
• 44:34
  Keiron Lewis: They know what they're working with.
• 44:35
  Keiron Lewis: They know what sells because that's also very important for them, what sells as well in shops.
• 44:39
  Keiron Lewis: so it can be a little bit cars close to the chest.
• 44:41
  Keiron Lewis: but I've been fortunate that the publishers that I work with, they are quite open, to the designs and actually.
• 44:48
  Keiron Lewis: I hope this isn't the right sort of ballpark, but I think credibility plays a role because actually now, I'm working with the V& A on a publication, which is coming out.
• 44:56
  Keiron Lewis: this year and Again, it's early days very early days, but they've seen books i've made they've seen what I can do from covers to interiors and I think that credibility does carry weight Into when we do explore what this might look like I can really put and voice my opinion on how it could work because he's obviously done it from previous projects.
• 45:14
  Keiron Lewis: So that carries weight
• 45:16
  Radim Malinic: I think it's you creating your sort of creative trademark of a brand of creativity, like we all bring our personal signature and our personal thinking into the projects.
• 45:25
  Radim Malinic: And that's why we got famous in SpeechMinds, we got famous designers and famous creatives and people who have come to the forefront of the industry just being known because they have brought their own unique blend of magic formula to this.
• 45:39
  Radim Malinic: I have to talk about, obviously, we can't have a conversation about book design without talking about book covers, because, sometimes you can have a fluke and things can fall into place straight away.
• 45:49
  Radim Malinic: And sometimes you can work on a cover for a year, just literally moving type by.
• 45:53
  Radim Malinic: Not if I was going to say inch, but not even an inch, and from experience, I feel like I can write a book on cover design, just the nuances of who do you want to appeal to?
• 46:01
  Radim Malinic: How do you want to talk to people?
• 46:03
  Radim Malinic: Like how, what the cover needs to portray?
• 46:05
  Radim Malinic: And mostly because it feels like there's certain styles for fiction and some genres of fiction and nonfiction and, the thing, the smart thinking books that are usually white.
• 46:14
  Radim Malinic: And then there's orange ones and you kind of feel like we've got all this freedom to do, but then there's also preset expectations because of the categories and things in a similar series.
• 46:23
  Radim Malinic: So when it comes to, for example, the Brownies book, how many different variations and obviously how many, because obviously you've got quite, obviously the stake of them might be quite a few different stakeholders.
• 46:35
  Radim Malinic: So tell us about book covers.
• 46:38
  Keiron Lewis: book covers.
• 46:39
  Keiron Lewis: Wow.
• 46:40
  Keiron Lewis: I, A lot of the work that I do, it's 60 to 40, 60 doing when it's a book, it's cover and the inside usually, which is what I prefer.
• 46:49
  Keiron Lewis: And then the 40 being just covers, which I feel is sometimes a bit of a disconnect because if you want me for a cover, that's fine.
• 46:54
  Keiron Lewis: That's what it is.
• 46:55
  Keiron Lewis: But I like to feel like it's like giving me a sandwich with just the bread, I like the feeling of what's, what I'm really getting.
• 47:00
  Keiron Lewis: And it's nice to see a thing through.
• 47:02
  Keiron Lewis: with the Brownies book, it was a year project.
• 47:05
  Keiron Lewis: so this was quite a long one.
• 47:07
  Keiron Lewis: and that's also to gather content from the people that were submitting as well and waiting.
• 47:11
  Keiron Lewis: and so that took a while as well.
• 47:12
  Keiron Lewis: so we sent, or I said, I should say quite a few cover options.
• 47:17
  Keiron Lewis: but then obviously we try to refine them and actually that's maybe second or third round of feedback when we're going through it, it's quite important that second or third, we're in a place where we're going down the right path.
• 47:28
  Keiron Lewis: it's.
• 47:28
  Keiron Lewis: It's very, I don't want to say very easy, but after that second round of feedback, it's quite clear to me, are we on the right route?
• 47:35
  Keiron Lewis: Because if we're not, then we'll just keep on going from feedback to feedback.
• 47:39
  Keiron Lewis: So it's very important to have that discussion if that's a half an hour discussion or 45 minute discussion, then it might be necessary.
• 47:46
  Radim Malinic: I want to know how would you validate it?
• 47:47
  Radim Malinic: Because obviously you mentioned you've got international clients.
• 47:50
  Radim Malinic: Obviously you can't be in a room, you can't peg it up on the wall.
• 47:53
  Radim Malinic: And, how do you validate it?
• 47:54
  Radim Malinic: do you mock it up on Amazon thumbnails or do you put it next to other books and, or do you have a, I spoke to Mike Schneid from Fast Company.
• 48:02
  Radim Malinic: He said he had a massive mirror board when he just put everything in there, like Because he said his wife would kill him if he put every all the printouts and he literally said like here like a hundred hundred different covers.
• 48:12
  Radim Malinic: so how do you validate him?
• 48:13
  Radim Malinic: It's like we're going back to the feedback.
• 48:14
  Radim Malinic: How do you validate the process and mostly what's the tools they use for that?
• 48:19
  Keiron Lewis: I do love a good muck up.
• 48:21
  Keiron Lewis: in, in certain I, it's tricky because when it's the very early stages.
• 48:25
  Keiron Lewis: I will, it's as simple as creating two lines, two horizontal lines on InDesign and then actually placing, five or six books on top of the line.
• 48:34
  Keiron Lewis: So it feels like bookshelves basically.
• 48:35
  Keiron Lewis: So you can see the books, the thumbnails of the books on top of the black line.
• 48:39
  Keiron Lewis: So it feels like it's a bookshelf.
• 48:41
  Keiron Lewis: And then we're in a more, say, down to our final three, potentially, then we mock them up in an actual, casing via Photoshop.
• 48:48
  Keiron Lewis: In a book, wherever it's a hardback.
• 48:50
  Keiron Lewis: So they see the spine, they see it in context.
• 48:52
  Keiron Lewis: That really does sell it sometimes to the client, I find, cause they can see it in context.
• 48:56
  Keiron Lewis: They see it in situ.
• 48:57
  Keiron Lewis: but one thing to really flag, which is super important, and this is something I've learned over time with book covers, is that, I could be designing using the nicest color palettes and whatnot, but the legibility and accessibility are super important when it comes to books.
• 49:11
  Keiron Lewis: So that's something from very early on we, and myself, I.
• 49:15
  Keiron Lewis: I have to limit myself to know, okay, this looks great in orange with black text and it is legible to me, but to someone else who struggles maybe with maybe seeing things, it might not work.
• 49:25
  Keiron Lewis: So there's, there's elements that we have to factor that in.
• 49:27
  Keiron Lewis: and again, usually a lot of publishers tend to have their guidelines and rules of how they would work with that too.
• 49:32
  Radim Malinic: Very insightful.
• 49:33
  Radim Malinic: I like it.
• 49:34
  Radim Malinic: it's interesting that you say you actually, I've acquired a restriction to go into Photoshop mockups only when you've got the last three because I found, especially for mock ups, that you can validate things in, in, faux situ quite quickly, because I would throw anything I've got in okay, this is an idea.
• 49:51
  Radim Malinic: Let's put it on, on the book, mock up straight away just to see, because you reveal so much of mechanics.
• 49:57
  Radim Malinic: Then you might need to fix straight away.
• 49:58
  Radim Malinic: And mostly legibility is such an important thing.
• 50:01
  Radim Malinic: I know I'm buried too well because one of my last two books didn't come out the color wise as it should be.
• 50:08
  Radim Malinic: So the contrast between texts wasn't exactly right.
• 50:11
  Radim Malinic: so I want to talk before, before we wrap this up, I want to talk about the inevitable mistakes, the inevitable things that happen in production, because I've printed.
• 50:22
  Radim Malinic: and sold more than 75, 000 books, and A number of tiny, minuscule mistakes that happen and you try to simplify the process you work with very established printers or suppliers, things happen.
• 50:35
  Radim Malinic: And if you can, do you have any sort of stories that you wish you didn't have?
• 50:40
  Keiron Lewis: Do you know what?
• 50:41
  Keiron Lewis: It's crazy because as designers, and I feel like I get the vibe we're quite similar are very nitpicky, right?
• 50:47
  Keiron Lewis: And you produce this work, which you should be proud of and, publish the happy client's happy, even grandma's happy, but then you read it and you're like, Oh, Jesus, there's so many things you notice and stuff that I say to my wife, is anyone gonna pick up on that little slight ledging, or letting or anything like that?
• 51:03
  Keiron Lewis: No, Kieran, they won't.
• 51:04
  Keiron Lewis: But I guess it's, The hunger that we want as designers to try and strive to, there's no such thing as perfection, of course not, but to the best that we can deliver.
• 51:12
  Keiron Lewis: any stories that I've done?
• 51:14
  Keiron Lewis: Ah, do you know what?
• 51:15
  Keiron Lewis: There was one.
• 51:16
  Keiron Lewis: And I feel like now I'm brave enough to share this one actually.
• 51:19
  Keiron Lewis: with the Still Breathing book, there was, again, copies proofread by many people.
• 51:24
  Keiron Lewis: There's an audio version of it.
• 51:25
  Keiron Lewis: we got a name wrong, of one of the people who were featured.
• 51:29
  Keiron Lewis: which is big because it's your name, right?
• 51:31
  Keiron Lewis: And the person that probably pick up on it is the person whose name was wrong.
• 51:34
  Keiron Lewis: yeah, they, to be fair, they were quite nice about it.
• 51:37
  Keiron Lewis: and yeah, for anyone who's seen the book, you would know I've done massive typographic spreads for it.
• 51:42
  Keiron Lewis: So luckily for me, the massive typographic spreads, there wasn't like an A missing in that because that would be horrible, but it's more within the body copy itself.
• 51:49
  Keiron Lewis: The name was wrong.
• 51:50
  Keiron Lewis: I think more than once actually in that paragraph.
• 51:52
  Keiron Lewis: It's elements like that and when I read the book I see now that he was missing all the time I opened that page, but no one else is gonna like I said, this is your name But these things happen they slip through the cracks.
• 52:02
  Keiron Lewis: You got to try and limit the amount of things that can happen.
• 52:05
  Keiron Lewis: So yeah
• 52:07
  Radim Malinic: There seems to be some sort of rule of design that, you can be staring at it on your screen forever, ever, ever, ever.
• 52:13
  Radim Malinic: And then you print it and you're like, of course, there's a mistake.
• 52:15
  Radim Malinic: Of course.
• 52:15
  Radim Malinic: Like, how did that make it happen?
• 52:17
  Radim Malinic: But I think from experience, like you give yourself a little bit more time.
• 52:21
  Radim Malinic: Obviously you've got bigger teams to work on this stuff.
• 52:24
  Radim Malinic: And it's proofreaders what I found that, they still don't see stuff.
• 52:28
  Radim Malinic: it's just like, you're a proofreader, get it right.
• 52:30
  Radim Malinic: Sorry.
• 52:32
  Keiron Lewis: Also, don't be afraid to flag because there's a moment, there's a moment where you feel like you're being too much of a, not a nuisance, but, and I think that's.
• 52:41
  Keiron Lewis: Good, because that's not good.
• 52:42
  Keiron Lewis: There's a fine line, but the way I see it is that both yourself and the client want to get to the best deliverable possible and you would rather hash it out, refine the head out of it, go back and forth then when it's printed and it's sold by how many copies and then somebody else picks it up and then someone puts it on Twitter and says, Oh, look what I did, do you know what I mean?
• 52:59
  Keiron Lewis: That you open up the world to criticism.
• 53:00
  Keiron Lewis: So there's elements of it.
• 53:01
  Keiron Lewis: And yeah, within time you refine it and you get better relationships and you feel more confident with challenging.
• 53:06
  Keiron Lewis: So it's all part of the beautiful process.
• 53:10
  Radim Malinic: I've got a Dirty Secret and one of my first book's been reprinted six times And it's six different copies, six, six different versions, like Dirty Secret.
• 53:20
  Radim Malinic: I mean, that makes every version more valuable and more, more edition wise.
• 53:24
  Radim Malinic: But I can now see like when people share the book on, on social, I was like, ah, I can recognize the covers.
• 53:30
  Radim Malinic: I put a little sort of little Easter eggs for myself, knowing There's little, two little, there's dots next, there's more dots on the spine.
• 53:36
  Radim Malinic: There's like the covers different sometimes, like there's, I've introduced something.
• 53:40
  Radim Malinic: So I know when people share it, it was like, yeah, that's a good version.
• 53:43
  Radim Malinic: Enjoy that one.
• 53:44
  Radim Malinic: That's a good one.
• 53:44
  Radim Malinic: When people have the very first version, it was like.
• 53:47
  Radim Malinic: That's a unique one.
• 53:48
  Radim Malinic: it's littered with mistakes and nonsense, like not nonsense, but like nonsensical mistakes.
• 53:53
  Radim Malinic: You're like, I'm a graphic designer.
• 53:56
  Radim Malinic: Of course, we're going to put type across the spine.
• 53:58
  Radim Malinic: no, don't do that because that's the rookie mistake of every designer goes, you're going to put type across the spine and it can, we can have.
• 54:05
  Radim Malinic: People like Vince Frost, Gutter, yeah, like we can have Vince Frost to, to all the other famous designers if once, you made a mistake only once, you know, it's, I've learned the hard way too.
• 54:15
  Keiron Lewis: Yeah, I think you make it once.
• 54:17
  Keiron Lewis: And if you make it more than a few times, just try and get better at covering it.
• 54:20
  Keiron Lewis: That sounds terrible.
• 54:21
  Keiron Lewis: That sounds like I'm trying to be this is, do you know what I mean?
• 54:23
  Keiron Lewis: It's we're only human, right?
• 54:24
  Keiron Lewis: We're gonna, but like you said, the idea of putting the unique spin on it, there's ways of, how you could do it and we're only human.
• 54:30
  Keiron Lewis: it's the norm.
• 54:32
  Radim Malinic: I think, I've known someone who was for, used to work for Taschen and he said, look, you make mistakes all the time too, it just doesn't matter who you work for because one of the, um, latest editors I worked with, I was, Quite not displeased to see my sort of final copy was still be not given to me after two proofreads with the mistake I'm like she says look it all happens.
• 54:54
  Radim Malinic: You know, no one can make it perfect we had a book we had four people proofread and there were still mistakes in there.
• 54:59
  Radim Malinic: stuff happens and you kind of accept it because as a designer you make mistake, as a writer you make mistake, as a proofreader you make mistake, printer makes mistake, if the press miner doesn't put the right level of cyan into things like things come out.
• 55:11
  Radim Malinic: It's, there's so many factors and when you see, when you talk about like the final result, when your grandma sees the final result, she'll be like, good amount of layer of cyan in this, image because she can see the I guess I can see the split in the blue channel, you know, it's too much yellow in the play.
• 55:26
  Radim Malinic: Kieran, I think we could talk about this forever.
• 55:28
  Radim Malinic: this is really good.
• 55:29
  Radim Malinic: Obviously, it's close to my heart.
• 55:30
  Radim Malinic: It's close to your heart, which, you know, you beautifully show.
• 55:33
  Radim Malinic: And I'm just really excited because I feel like you've got this, your own sort of universe of book design that's non occupied from, I don't know, by anybody else.
• 55:43
  Radim Malinic: And then what you create, obviously with the audience you're creating it for, it seems like you're beautifully connected to, to, to the causes and the topics and it only shows.
• 55:53
  Radim Malinic: So I'm truly excited to see what happens next and what you do next.
• 55:56
  Radim Malinic: And obviously everyone should look out for your V& A book and potentially pick up the Brownies book and stuff and give you a follow because yeah, we haven't even talked about Adobe.
• 56:04
  Radim Malinic: We haven't talked about other things, but I think we've covered.
• 56:07
  Radim Malinic: Practicalities about how book design can make you feel the happiest person in the world, or make you wanna lose all your hair, really, because it can be really hard.
• 56:16
  Radim Malinic: So thank you for your time and, is there anything in the future you your plan, what you're planning to do and what's gonna happen with your work?
• 56:23
  Keiron Lewis: What do I plan to, do you know, I, if you asked me this question a year ago, I probably have quite a few things, like I said, I'm recently a dad.
• 56:30
  Keiron Lewis: So I try not to think too far ahead into the future because I have no idea what's going to happen tonight.
• 56:35
  Keiron Lewis: but what I would say is this idea of being able to work on projects that resonates with my soul and, publications that touches, on the black community and inspires and other communities as well.
• 56:46
  Keiron Lewis: That's what I.
• 56:47
  Keiron Lewis: Strive to do as much as possible.
• 56:49
  Keiron Lewis: And, and coming on my platforms and podcasts like yourselves.
• 56:51
  Keiron Lewis: And obviously, it's nice to speak to yourself as well.
• 56:54
  Keiron Lewis: I know we've met for the first time.
• 56:55
  Keiron Lewis: Yes.
• 56:55
  Keiron Lewis: yesterday and whatnot, and, it's nice to finally have a conversation with you and hopefully people listening to this will, be inspired and do their own thing.
• 57:02
  Keiron Lewis: So thank you for having
• 57:05
  Radim Malinic: thank you for coming on and I think for anyone who's made it all this far, shouldn't really need a question.
• 57:10
  Radim Malinic: Like, how would you get into book design?
• 57:12
  Radim Malinic: Because I think we've covered, think we've covered your journey rather well and honestly it's all about a passion project.
• 57:17
  Radim Malinic: It's like what you do outside your working hours mostly what makes you get up in the morning going I'm going to do that.
• 57:23
  Radim Malinic: That's usually where, where the future lies, because you start that little thing, you get excited and that universe will then pick up on that signal and make you, grow it into something much bigger.
• 57:33
  Radim Malinic: So Kieran, yeah, as I said, pleasure having you on and yeah, I'm sure we'll speak soon again.
• 57:37
  Radim Malinic: Nice one.
• 57:38
  Keiron Lewis: Sounds good.
• 57:39
  Keiron Lewis: Ciao.
• 57:45
  Radim Malinic: Thank you for listening to this episode of Creativity for Sale podcast.
• 57:49
  Radim Malinic: The show was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinic.
• 57:52
  Radim Malinic: Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Neil mackay,.
• 57:55
  Radim Malinic: from 7 million Bikes Podcasts, Theme music was written and produced by Robert Summerfield.
• 58:01
  Radim Malinic: If you enjoyed this episode and would like to support the podcast, please subscribe and leave a rating or review.
• 58:07
  Radim Malinic: To get your own action plan on how to start and grow a life changing creative business.
• 58:11
  Radim Malinic: You can get a copy of the Creativity for Sale book via the links in show notes.
• 58:15
  Radim Malinic: burning, and until next time, I'm Radim Malinich, your guide through this exploration of passion, creativity, innovation, and the boundless potential within us all.