Latest / The Paul Barron Crypto Show / Global Outage vs Decentralization️🔥Hedera ETF Next? Mance Harmon INTERVIEW

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Global Outage vs Decentralization️🔥Hedera ETF Next? Mance Harmon INTERVIEW · The Paul Barron Crypto Show

0:05
We're going to dive in a little deeper to what Hadera is up to.
0:08
Before we get started, I want to thank our sponsor, and that is
0:10
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one to go with. All right, let's get into it today. I
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want to introduce mister Mance Harmon, who is the co founder over at Hadera.
0:55
Great to have you back a Hi Paul, it's good to see you
0:58
again. Yes, So, Matz, let's get in to a lot of
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things that are happening within the Hadera ecosystem. Always we have to talk about
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the governing body of Hadera and are you seeing in terms of the council organization
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itself, opportunities with some of especially with what has happened here recently around this
1:19
global outage that we saw with cloud strike, maybe people looking at blockchain saying,
1:23
hey, maybe there's another alternative here. Have you had a large amount
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of interest from companies around the world kind of talking about this. I wouldn't
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say at this stage that we've had a lot of inflow resulting from the crowd
1:37
strike problem. Having said that, we have talked at some length with various
1:42
organizations, including the White House in the past and some special studies that they
1:49
were doing, and how you can use blockchain to harden critical infrastructure, you
1:56
know, national infrastructure. The redundancy that comes along with blockchain, and if
2:00
you think of blockchain just as a database, a decentralized database, then it's
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possible to have high availability to act the information in the database while also having
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the resilience of that you know, that data being distributed in multiple locations,
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so if one goes down, one node goes down, everything is still available,
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right. I mean this goes back to the original value proposition. Multiple
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databases that are sold by database companies oracles and others, so where you can
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write to any given database and have that information replicated across lots of different nodes,
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the value proposition is the same. The difference in this case with blockchain
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is that you can have multiple organizations each running those nodes rather than a single
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organization like a cloud strip or a Microsoft ever exactly. Yeah, you've got
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the outage that occurred a lot of people or kind of vuying for the potential
3:00
of switching to decentralized and decentralization as a whole, this would be a natural
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I would think for HADERA and cloud Strike, I mean, this would be
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a good I would think it would be a good addition to the council someone
3:14
like that that might look at this as an opportunity. Well, so,
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the interesting thing here is that if you want to have that kind of resiliency
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in a database, then you have to have an algorithm that works with databases.
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And this goes back to the fundamental value proposition of hash graph. Hash
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graph literally makes it possible to create one of these standard you know, SQL,
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a sequel database in a distributed way where the other protocols, the other
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algorithms out there simply don't have the properties or the performance to be able to
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achieve that. It is actually something that we have taken a pretty close look
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a look at going on now for a decade. Originally we consider building a
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d centralized SQL database for these types of applications and problems, and it's still
4:08
a good idea. Frankly, Yeah, I mentioned the name is CrowdStrike.
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I'm thinking though cloud Flair is a company that I work with some so in
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looking at it, and these are kind of some of the things that I
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see more and more dependence on the whole centralization of not only the infrastructure around
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what's happening on the internet, but now you're getting banking into it. Medical
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that surprised me. I know many medical professionals here in our area that had
4:38
problems last week when this occurred. So I was surprised at the micro services
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that were essentially affected here really around the world that started to kind of bleed
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into so many different industries so to your point. Definitely a big one for
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sure. Another one I want to get into, and this was a topic
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that you talked about in pre show here, and that was the derec alliance.
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First of all, kind of explain to us a little bit about what
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you guys are doing, because this has maybe some tie ins to what has
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been happening. Well in the world of crypto. We have a fundamental problem
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that really needs to be addressed in order for the whole industry to scale to
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what we hope it is, and that is that when you have an account
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on one of these Layer one or Layer two protocols, you have a key,
5:25
a private key that's associated with that account. If you lose that key,
5:30
you lose everything associated with that. You lose your crypto, you lose
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your your NFTs, you lose whatever tokens that are associated with that account.
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And it's a problem because just about in every other aspect of life, when
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you have something of value, there is typically a way to recover it if
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if you lose the keys that are associated with if you have passwords, password
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recovery, but that's not true in crypto. And so what Leman has done
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is designed a protocol. Leman Baird. By the way, it's my co
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founder of Adera hashgraph and the inventor of the technology hashgraph. Leman invented all
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the tech. What Leman's done is come up with the protocol that makes it
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possible for you using your phone and you have a wallet on your phone,
6:23
you have keys that are embedded on the phone. If you were to lose
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the phone and needed to replace it, then there's a way of recovering those
6:32
keys simply seamlessly, without the pain that is typically associated with key recovery.
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If you can recover at all and it works pretty simply, there'll be helpers
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we call them helpers that also have a slice of the key on their computers
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or phones, and behind the scenes, without your involvement, on a night
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basis, the phone goes and ensures that those helpers still exist and they still
7:05
have the capacity to help you recover your key in the event you need to.
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If you need to recover the key, then you simply choose in of
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VM. So if you have ten helpers, perhaps you want to have four
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of them required to work with you to recover the key, then you have
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redundancy in your helpers. You can go and talk to them and there's a
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simple protocol, simple process for them to work with you to recover the key,
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and you have that safety net that you don't otherwise have. Now in
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order for this to be meaningful, you really want this technology to be used
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across all wallets and all protocols. You know, you want this to be
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a standard for the industry. And to that end, we've started the DRECT
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Alliance, the Decentralized Recovery Alliance, and announce the initial set of members back
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in May to include that list of logos that you showed there. Commentarily,
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you know, it's Ripple and XRP Labs and algorand and half a dozen other
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organizations included of Coursadera is involved, and we anticipate that there'll be announcements with
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more protocols joining the alliance in the near future as well. So we're trying
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to solve that problem for the industry. I want to go over to a
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couple other topics, real world asset toganization. This is something we've been reporting
8:31
on for quite some time. Is this too late for real world asset toganization
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with all the advancement we've seen from other chains, or do you feel like
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this is still super early in the use of this technology. Oh well,
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I mean our WA generally is still in its infancy, right. The vision
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hasn't even begun to be realized. That specifically being that everything that you can
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see in touch, everything that is manufact actioned, is going to end up
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having a token twin right. And so there are lots of categories within r
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w A. The you know, one of the categories today that is often
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talked about is tokenization of some type of fund right, whether it be a
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money market fund or or something else. And of course we've got a lot
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going on there with Aberdeen and black Rock and others to sort of demonstrate that
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that's a possibility. There's a value proposition to people that want to trade in
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money market funds and that sort of thing. But you know, beyond that,
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you have real estate that is going to be addressed, again, still
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in its infancy. Red Swan is one of the companies that is using HIDERA
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for tokenization of commercial real estate, making it possible or investors that are not
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otherwise able to participate in large commercial real estate investments to to be able to
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take a slice of that into their portfolio. And and it spans you know,
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from from from money market funds and those kinds of instruments to real estate
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to fan engagement. Karate combat is a good example people typically talking about with
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with adera uh, you know, fan engagement where you have rewards for uh
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participation in the league, where you can use those rewards to sort of direct
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the league to you know, bring together certain fighters if you want, and
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you can uh get rewarded more rewards in a tokenized form for betting on the
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outcomes of various fights. You can stake those tokens, et cetera. Even
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bigger than those will be the tokenization of products that flow through supply chains,
10:54
right, and we have you know, a major manufacturer or a major partner
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that has a platform that tracks the manufacturer of products through supply chains, you
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know, all the way from the earliest you know, upstream as far upstream
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as you can go, bringing in raw materials, all the way through the
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supply chain downstream to the distributors in retailers. While supply chain has been a
11:24
major use case for a decade, the tokenization of all of the assets associated
11:28
with that supply chain is still new and in its infancy. We've got a
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decade or two and it started, Yeah, just getting started. Well,
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I mean, you have some council members that are going to be I would
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think they were very integrated into that mandalize being won. I want to bring
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that up in a minute, but I want to go back to Karate Combat
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because that was a good example of this. Here's karate combat right now.
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Sixty two thousand active users for Hedera right now on karate combat. Was this
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a bit of surprise for you guys when you engaged with this particular platform of
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how popular this one has become. You never know how these things are going
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to go. Karate Combat was a startup when we first partnered with them.
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They've had fantastic success. Of course, we're delighted in that I got to
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attend my first karate combat fight back in at Consensus was I think that was
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in May this year May earlier. Yeah, down in Austin, and you
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know, major personalities are now involved. Joe Rogan was ringside and Drane Johnson
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participated by video you know this in this event. So yeah, we're fantastic.
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I think they have something unique players right now sixty thousand, so kind
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of an up only comparison here and before I know they're doing one. I
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think they're doing one over at Bitcoin. I'm not sure, but that would
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be another event. They seem to kind of coalesce around what's happening in the
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crypto community itself, so kudos to them. Yeah, I want to get
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over to a little bit here. This was, of course, news on
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hbar making into the German socc exchange Solana already being looked at by Vanak.
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The ETHTF rolling out this week, we'll see a whole slew. What's the
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potential of a hedera ETF. Well, so that's a good question, and
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it probably depends on what markets we're talking about, right, So, there
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have been rumors that I've I've heard and been involved into some degree with various
13:31
types of exchange traded products. The ones that I've been most familiar with have
13:37
been in Europe, not in the US. Right, of course, what
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we hear is the lore go into market with an ETP, an exchange product.
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In this case, it's great that we now have an ETP, and
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it sounds like it was the first of its kind, not just for Hidera,
13:56
but for that exchange to have a crypto related product like that. On
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the exchange of course, It's just it broadens the potential base of investors that
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want to hold h BAR in this case, so it expands the market,
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it it increases accessibility to the product. It also makes it possible to participate
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in holding h BAR in a regulated way, in a regulated context, because
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these etp are on exchanges that are that are regulated. So I think it's
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all good. It's all goodness not just for our system ecosystem, but for
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the crypto community as a whole and the direction things seem to be going.
14:43
You look at regulation though, man, a lot of movement around stable coins.
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You've got a handful in here, and you think about of companies that
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could play into this, you know, because I'm thinking PayPal simple enough,
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you know, with their stable coin, why not potentially think something like a
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you know, a Google type stable coin that could have evolved and with them
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being on your you know, your council, naturally I would think would be
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ADERA. So what are your thoughts about that? The you know, what's
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prevented this from going mainstream has been the regulatory in regratory. Yeah, we
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had been talking to not just those that are on our council, but others
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that you've mentioned going back several years, right, and so this is not
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something that is new that you know, at least the concept or the desire
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to do something like this, But the regulatory environment, especially in the United
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States, has been terrible for a long time, and these organizations, you
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know, it seems to me that the bigger the organization, the more risk
15:50
averse they are. And so's it's all about getting the clarity and mainstreaming the
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tech. As you say, it looks good, I mean things are moving
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in the right dictric. What I would say is that there is a company
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in our ecosystem that is worth noting. That's called bank Social. So bank
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Social is a credit union service provider. So they're focused on the credit union
16:17
industry as opposed to banking. But they make it possible for credit unions to
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accept deposits that then in turn immediately go into a stable coin, which makes
16:30
that cash regulated and ensured by the credit union industry. And they've been working
16:37
directly with the credit union regulator, so the regulator in that industry, the
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credit union industry has been engaged and you know, more forward leaning than perhaps
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the banking regulators. I think there is a way to demonstrate the value of
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this in a regular context in the United States, and Banked Social is leading
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that charge. Now I'm looking here at their website right now, Empire people.
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I noticed that they've got you know, built on Hadera right there,
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so kind of verifying what you're talking about here within this right now. Is
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this a US organization? Yeah, yes, they actually they're based in Dallas.
17:22
Okay, all right, interesting, this is the first I've heard of
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this one. I did see that though over on your Alliance on the the
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program you're doing here with Ripple with d Reckon, So interesting connection there.
17:38
They have a wallet, of course, I mean, if you're if you're
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doing anything with crypto, then you end up needing a wallet. One of
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the things that worth noting. One of the reasons the regulators really liked this
17:52
approach with bank Social is because there's no centralized custody, right there's no opportunity
18:00
unity for the kinds of problems that we've seen in years past with centralized custody
18:04
to happen the end users, the depositors have a wallet, and the wallet
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includes the direct technology, it's self custody, and the regular approach we're going
18:18
to get those guys on the show learn a little bit more about what is
18:21
happening there. That's always a big topic. Is anybody that's really getting savvy
18:26
and Web three and or crypto in general, especially on the traditional banking rails
18:30
out there. I want to go over to an upgrade you guys have have
18:33
going on right now, the nine ninety four hip. The main thing I
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saw was the interoperability you mentioned on supply chain AI playing into this. What
18:42
about sustainable what about interoperability between chains like Avalanche Solana looking at cross chain,
18:48
how would that have any application there? I think that an interledger protocol is
18:55
absolutely needed. It's one of those things that's going to cause the industry to
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mature, and the industry won't mature until we have and some form of interelledger
19:07
protocol that everyone has agreed to use. It's got to be standardized, right.
19:11
You know. The funny thing is if we go back to where the
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sort of the modern era of computing started, online computing started, Remember the
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old days of Prodigy and AOL and compu Spurve all of these walled gardens,
19:29
and then we had the web come around and what I'll call Web one,
19:33
oh, with the promise of decentralization of all that and pulling down those walls
19:37
from those walled gardens. Then we went to Web two, oh, where
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the walls came back up around some of the major platforms that exist out there.
19:47
I think of the social platforms in particular, that's not restricting them.
19:49
Then Web three, with the promise of decentralization, it's not the reality.
19:55
Web three's promises not reality because we end up in a situation that's very analogous
20:02
to the prodigies and the compy serves of you know, thirty years ago,
20:07
forty years ago, and that's not going to be resolved until there is an
20:11
interledger protocol. And I think that there are ways that you can do that
20:17
way more efficiently than what we currently If you think about what it means to
20:22
have an interledger protocol, to put it simply, anyone should be able to
20:26
take the assets that exist on one chain, all of their tokens, whatever
20:30
type of token that might be, and seamlessly and quickly, securely, and
20:36
for almost no cost, move it to any other chain of their choice.
20:41
Right well, the approaches that we have today with the bridges, and you
20:47
know the need for these third party validators in between the chains to make sure
20:52
everything is working. It's the exact wrong approach. It's aural approach, and
21:00
and we do have designs for how to resolve these issues. It's not something
21:03
that we've rolled out, but I think it's, you know, like everything
21:07
else that we've done, We've taken a step back, looked at major problems
21:11
with the industry, design the tech to address those problems, and then as
21:17
the industry matures and as we get to it, we roll out those solutions.
21:22
And we're hoping, frankly, to leverage the de rec alliance, you
21:27
know, designed to solve one problem, leverage that alliance in the future to
21:33
resolve this larger problem of ILP and make it all less expensive, make it
21:38
cheap, quick, seamless, and secure. There are ways to do that.
21:42
I want to get into meme coins. We'll kind of wrap up here,
21:45
but I want to get into meme coins and potential NFT projects. We
21:48
haven't seen a lot of meme coins that have rolled out. There's been a
21:51
meme coin craze on just about every chain out there, whether you look at
21:55
Base, what's going on with on chain summer Solana has exploded onto the scene
22:00
with their phantom wallet and all the infrastructure we saw at mean points there,
22:03
and then Avalanche has been very active on that. All right, I wanted
22:06
to I'm just going to throw an idea out there to you guys. I'm
22:08
looking at Mandalize. These guys are pretty much the Titans of snacks. Okay.
22:15
Our team was kind of going through what the potential is here, and
22:18
I focused in. We looked at this one right here, Sarpatch. So
22:22
you've got Sara Patch kids now jumping into things like roadblocks, et cetera,
22:27
and all of this playing into things they're doing. There's some of the collectibles
22:32
they've got. I guess they call them u UGC limiteds. But this available
22:37
over on roadblocks. Very intriguing that a company like Mondaleze is looking forward in
22:44
this fashion. And I've already seen this from McDonald's. We're obviously seeing on
22:48
major brands like Nike. Mondalze now has a handful of brands that could match
22:53
up pretty nicely here to Web three. If you guys had any discussion with
22:57
Mandalize as they are on your council about these kinds of strategies, absolutely,
23:03
I mean the simple answer is not going to be a satisfying answer, but
23:08
the simple answer is yes. And they when they joined the council, it
23:15
wasn't because they were wanting to explore what might be done. It's because they
23:21
had specific ideas about what they wanted to do. And by the way,
23:25
that's a general that's a general statement for all new council members. Right,
23:29
We're at a point now in the maturity of the project where if there is
23:33
a council member that is added to the project, it's because there have been
23:37
ongoing conversations about their specific use case and how they want to use Adera,
23:44
and because they want to use the there's interest in also participating in the governance
23:48
of Hidera. It's not the case most of the time, it's not the
23:52
case that we can go into any detail about what those use cases are outside
23:56
of what was already you know, sort of publicly anounced in a press release.
24:00
But it is the case that these companies that are joining us today,
24:04
including mandolies, have very specific ideas about how they can use the platform,
24:11
and for that reason they want to be a part of its governance. Yeah,
24:14
for sure, all right, Matt's armon. It's always good chatting with
24:17
you, catching up what's going on, Hondera. Thanks so much for stopping
24:21
in today. We appreciate it. Thank you. It's good to be here
24:23
all right. Listen, If you guys are not part of our Diamond Circle,
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Of course, if you want to catch me out there on ex it's at
24:48
Paul Baron. We'll catch you next time right here on Techpath. Thank you.