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Baptist Minister FBI Agents Are Delicious w/ Eric Robinson · The Delicious Culture with Jon Francois

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  If you tell me that you raped a girl and then
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  the dad came and cut off parts of your body,
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  I literally, I don't have a problem with that,
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  but the police can't do that. And that was the
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  issue that these police officers were out there
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  torturing. Hey delishies, grab a plate and taste
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  the delicious culture. I'm your host, John Francois.
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  Wow. We are feasting on food, pop culture and
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  lifestyle with former Baptist minister, FBI agent
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  SWAT operator, author of the upcoming book, irreverent
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  from saving souls to chasing centers in the FBI,
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  Eric. Robinson. Eric, I was literally talking
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  about you to my wife last night. I was like,
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  guess what, baby? Like a Baptist minister who
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  was an FBI agent who became a SWAT operator.
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  And she was, she had the same expression that
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  I did. It was just like, wow, that is, that is,
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  that is a leap from one unrelated thing to another.
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  How you doing, man? I'm doing good. I, so I grew
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  up in the Midwest and then where I was a Baptist
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  pastor, everybody hunted too. So. You go, oh
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  yeah, well, you know, at least he knew how to
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  work a rifle. I never handled a handgun. I didn't
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  know anything. So really little change for me.
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  So, I mean, I guess the logical first question
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  is how to tell me your Baptist minister background
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  and how somehow that. uh, transitions to you
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  working for the FBI, especially since you had
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  never handled a handgun. Cause I would say, I
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  would think that's a pretty important requisite
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  prerequisite for being at the FBI. Yeah, real
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  quick on that. They actually, the firearms instructors
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  and I later be so guy who never handled a gun.
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  I later was a firearms instructor because I became
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  much more proficient. They prefer that to work
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  with people. who have never shot. So you get
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  cops in there who don't get much training, get
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  a little bit of training and then just have bad
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  habits. And now you got to like break that bone,
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  you know, and reset it. Military guys who I was
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  skipping rounds as we started while these guys
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  were shooting what I thought was great, but was
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  actually poor. And, you know, they're here and
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  they're getting incrementally better than I'm
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  getting, you know, nowhere. Yeah. It's easier
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  to teach somebody who has nothing in their head,
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  no knowledge. And you can start them fresh and
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  teach them from beginning to end, rather than
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  someone like you said, who is like, all right,
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  I have learned this and that, and I know better
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  than you. And for the instructor, it becomes
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  a difficult pain in the ass. Yeah. And I knew
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  nothing. So I was perfect for it. Yeah. Yeah.
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  Yeah. I started out Christian home, went to church,
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  you know, usual things, and then Going through
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  college, I came to a place where I thought, okay,
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  I should get into ministry full -time. I know
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  the Bible. I understand the importance of sharing
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  these things. It's something I like to do. I
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  think I'm effective at it. And so I started on
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  a path, which is going to come through a little
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  bit later to the FBI question, of training to
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  be a missionary to Muslim people. And so I had
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  studied Islam in college. I had that training
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  of working with Muslim people. learning their
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  culture. And I'm sorry, where are you from? Where
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  did you grow up? Oh, that's a great question.
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  This was going to Miami of Ohio. Oxford, Ohio,
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  Miami university grew up in the Toledo, Ohio
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  area. Eventually got to come back to this area
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  too. Dumb question, but I do see posters for
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  Miami university. Like I think I saw it in a
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  mall in my home state of Connecticut. I live
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  right here in Vermont currently, but yeah, when
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  I went to visit family in Connecticut, it was
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  like, Oh, Miami university. It must be in Miami,
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  but it's in Ohio. Can you tell me the story behind
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  that? Yes. The story is, well, it's called that
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  because of the Miami. Native Americans tribe
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  in that area. And anyone who's going to Miami
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  of Ohio, Miami university knows this phrase.
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  We were a university before Miami was a city
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  in Florida. Oh, that's their pride and joy. Okay.
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  The college was founded in 1809. Wow. So tell
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  me about your education there and ministry and
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  such. started with journalism, then moved into
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  religion and focused more on Islam. I had gone
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  on a missions trip, summer of my junior year,
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  to the country of Turkey to reach out to college
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  students who were pretty good English speakers.
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  So they liked engaging so they could practice
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  their English with native born speakers and then
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  look for opportunities to now sneak in talking
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  about Jesus. And I came back and so this is the
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  Early fall before my senior year and I see four
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  cute Christian girls sitting at a frozen yogurt
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  shop And I had a ring on my finger, which I I
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  had bought while I was in Turkey as as my promise
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  to go back as a missionary. And I take off the
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  ring and I put it on the table and I say, who
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  wants to marry me and go to Turkey? And this
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  cute curly headed brunette says, I will. And
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  she puts it on her finger. And I'm like, yeah,
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  I wasn't talking to you. I wasn't talking to
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  you. You have a boyfriend like single gals and
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  opportunity. Well, that young lady eventually
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  wrote me. While she was in college and said oh
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  my boyfriend broke up with me, and I said that's
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  a shame and two years later I put a better ring
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  on her finger So the woman that you eventually
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  married how long had you known each other? Leading
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  up to the point where you asked her to marry
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  you well I knew her in college. She's two years
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  behind me, so I'd known her for a couple years
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  We had a bit of a whirlwind we that created some
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  issues with her family Being a fun. We're young
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  I was 23 she was 21 mom had some problems with
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  men along the way So she was worried that her
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  baby was gonna get into trouble. This is 33 years
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  ago now, so I feel like we've made it okay so
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  far. So she thinks, mom thinks that 23 year olds
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  just have like a sketchy, unreliable thing about
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  themselves? I don't know, man. I thought I was
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  a pretty good catch. Yeah, I would agree. So,
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  okay. And what about Islam fascinated you enough
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  to want to study into it? Well, it was a wide
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  open field again. My mindset at that time was
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  we've got to go out, tell people the gospel,
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  make sure they know the truth, can make the right
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  choices. That's changed a little bit in my perspective
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  since then. But the idea is like, this is a large,
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  there's so many people to talk to. They also
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  come from a position of just off of what the
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  Bible might say, respecting Jesus, considering
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  him a prophet. And so there, there was a bit
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  of a starting ground to that as opposed to other
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  more esoteric religions that are harder to find
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  connections to. So, you know, with Islam, it's,
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  it's like, it's an Abrahamic religion. It's a
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  cousin to Christianity, to Judaism. So. Okay.
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  I have some familiarity with this. What also
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  caught me was earlier when you mentioned that,
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  you know, you were bonding with like non -native
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  English speakers and kind of getting them well
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  versed in the English language and then sneaking
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  the gospel onto it. And I'm sure you were kind
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  of joking about it, but is that, is that sort
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  of how it goes because I don't know, I'm just,
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  I'm just thinking of like, you know, something
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  like a Jehovah witness or maybe a devout Christian
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  who is trying to get me into the Christianity
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  religion is, is the device usually to convert
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  somebody have a conversation based on their interests
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  or based on. a desire of their say to learn english
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  and then gradually try to work the gospel in
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  it is that usually how it goes not only did i
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  not like the idea of trying to trick somebody
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  or just straight up cold forcing Here's the gospel
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  and here's what I you know stand on the street
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  corner and yell at people not only did I was
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  I? Uncomfortable with that I I believe that it
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  was impractical so for years I had been doing
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  Outreach like this evangelism, and I know like
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  if you got to have some time some kind of an
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  interest in the first place And so if I go talk
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  to guys and they're playing video games, they're
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  not interested right now. There's no point in
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  trying to break them away. So we would talk about
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  similarities, differences between our religions
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  and just begin that conversation to see if we
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  can get to some place where, OK, I see that you
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  are open to me telling you what I think is true
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  and just offer that for you to consider. One
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  of the things that. It's always stood out to
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  me in the Bible my favorite parable is where
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  Jesus talks about He says the kingdom of heaven
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  is like a treasure hidden in a field and a man
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  comes upon the treasure and knowing its value
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  He sells everything he has so he can buy the
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  fields. And I believe that in the sense of people
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  have to understand what they're getting. They
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  have to see that this is a valuable treasure
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  because they're giving up everything else in
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  order to follow this lifestyle, follow a new
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  God. So the idea of arguing somebody into having
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  a logical explanation only to say, this is why
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  I believe you're right. There's a lot more to
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  completely changing your faith or the way that
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  you live. So how are we getting to the FBI, Eric?
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  I'm very curious. That's such an abrupt transition.
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  I'm listening to you and I'm like, oh my God,
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  this sounds like a great guy who's trying to,
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  you know, convey something that he believes strongly
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  into others. And now he's going to work for the
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  government. Like, how do we get to that? Yeah,
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  we're not getting there because you keep asking
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  me about church questions. Oh, no, no, I just,
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  I was curious, but then now it's like, oh, FBI,
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  does it come in in college? Does it come in when
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  you marry the girl? Like, do you have to protect
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  her from something? I don't know. So Becky and
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  I were set to be missionaries overseas and those
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  family issues came up, caused problems. And then
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  we just got the point of thinking, I don't think
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  it's wise for us to put that added stress upon
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  us being young and then having the stress from
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  the family. the opposition. So then transition
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  to say, okay, let's just stay stateside, do the
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  usual stuff. So youth pastor, graduate school,
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  assistant pastor. And then while I was the assistant
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  pastor at a Baptist church in Western New York,
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  they said, hey, we'd like to plant a new church
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  off of ours. And I said, I'd love to. Went through
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  the classes and the affirmation that says, yep,
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  you're... capable of doing this and planted a
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  church in the next town over and that was set
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  up to be one that welcomed people in who didn't
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  normally go to church. So I didn't want to just
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  swap Christians from one seat to another. I told
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  people we're going to reach folks who are curious
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  about Jesus but don't feel comfortable going
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  to church because they're judged, it's unfamiliar,
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  it's inaccessible. And I told that core group
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  that we started with, if we're going to make
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  errors, we're going to err on the side of grace.
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  So God's going to judge us for being too kind,
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  if he's going to judge us. So I want you to be
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  able to open your arms to people who aren't dressed
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  right for church, people who come in with tattoos
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  and piercings that are unfamiliar to you, people
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  who have alcohol in their breath, gay couples.
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  You see two men walking and holding hands? You've
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  got to be able to just go, so glad you're here.
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  And they said, yep, we're in. And that's the
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  church we had. So that's what I pastured for
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  years. And yet my problem, though I felt successful
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  and we're changing lives and I loved what we're
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  doing, is I didn't understand how to separate
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  myself from other people's problems. And so when
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  they came to me with their normal issues, just
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  nothing out of the ordinary, I then went home
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  burdened by their problems. And because of that,
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  for two straight years, every single day, every
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  day. I had a headache and it would last most
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  of the day and I pushed through it but I got
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  to a point of realizing I either have to stop
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  this or my body will just stop and I don't know
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  what it's gonna do because I can't do this every
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  day and so I told my wife I gotta find a job
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  with less stress. So I joined the FBI Which is
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  wow, that's saying something about the FBI if
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  it's less stressful than a Baptist ministry I
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  would feel like a Baptist ministry would be a
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  walk in the park compared to the FBI It just
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  was diff. It was different stress. Obviously
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  there's stressful things, but I didn't care Like,
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  if I'm dealing with a guy who's got a drug addiction
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  in my church, that doesn't just go away. If I'm
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  arresting a guy who's got a drug addiction, okay.
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  Or, you know, he gets away or whatever it is.
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  You know, it didn't matter the same way. My job
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  was to bring justice. My job was to get indictments,
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  arrest people. Okay, moving on. Next. And the
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  day that I got accepted in the FBI, the headache
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  stopped. So that was the cue that I was doing
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  the right thing. Wow. You mentioned being fatigued
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  or overwhelmed by all the problems coming at
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  you from, from church visitors when you were
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  a minister. I'm thinking of that term that my
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  wife told me, because my wife, Tony here in Vermont,
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  she is a veterinary technician and something
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  that veterinary technicians commonly experience
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  is like something along the lines of like empathy.
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  Fatigue or sympathy fatigue. Like you're dealing
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  with so much from clients who, oh my God, like,
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  please like fix this thing with my animal and
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  oh my God, my animal has to be put down and the
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  emotions that come from that. I mean, you go,
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  you deal with that on a regular basis. It could
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  burn you out and you may want to leave the industry.
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  So that's what I was thinking about when you
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  were talking about being burdened by people's
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  problems. Am I right on that? And what kinds
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  of, I don't know, because I think of like what
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  people might. come to their pastor for, and I
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  think maybe they are talking about financial
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  troubles and they want to be blessed by the pastor
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  to have good luck, you know, maybe the Lord will
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  make them rich. But yeah, give me a sense of
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  the kind of troubles that people would come to
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  you with that would really, really, really overwhelm
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  you. Well, John. My church was meant to be one,
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  so Baptist Church I was in before, these were
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  generations of people who went to church. And
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  so everybody has problems, but these people were
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  living a straighter life. I was looking to reach
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  out to people who didn't go to church, weren't
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  raised by parents who went to church and didn't
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  have the same values. So they're coming in and
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  to your question, lead worship singer got a girl
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  pregnant and like, that's, that's not a good
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  look. Wait, wait, why is that not a good look?
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  What's the whole thing behind that? They weren't
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  married and in the Baptist church, like you don't
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  even go to rated R movies. You don't dance because
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  dancing might lead to you getting a girl pregnant.
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  You know, it was very strict. I was trying to
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  get away from that, but it was that situation.
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  Another worship leader, her husband who was high
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  in the church just like had a mental break, met
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  a girl online and left his wife and three kids.
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  Like that doesn't, that doesn't just stop where,
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  okay, that event happened. Whereas in the FBI,
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  I get an indictment. I'm moving on to the next
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  case. So your point about your wife getting that
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  empathy fatigue, here's a day where she's dealing
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  with animals that are sick, that are hurt, that
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  are injured, and guess what? Tomorrow, it's the
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  same. And so there's no finish line for your
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  wife. She can feel good about, okay, we took
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  care of these, but tomorrow could be a bad case
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  in the church. I didn't go to someone and say,
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  congratulations, now you're perfect and have
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  no more problems. Moving on to this one. Any
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  FBI gotten the indictments case is done moving
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  on. Let's do something about these next group
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  of people. Okay. I swear. I feel like these are
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  my last two church questions before we get to
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  the FBI. Cause I'm, cause I'm curious. So, so,
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  so please bear with me and maybe I'll try to
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  roll these two questions into one. So to the
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  The person, the worship singer that got the girl
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  pregnant, I'm wondering if, I know you said it
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  was a very strict environment, but still wondering
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  if there was something, a thought that occurred
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  either in your mind or someone else's mind that
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  traditionally this is frowned upon in the church
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  to get someone pregnant without being married
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  to them. But maybe this is an opportunity to
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  talk about like, oh, personal responsibility.
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  And like you got this girl pregnant and now you
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  all have to figure out like what to do with that.
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  Do you want to keep the baby? Do you not? Like,
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  was there any exploration of that or was it just
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  simply black and white? Like, no, you're not
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  married and therefore this entire thing is a
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  sin and cannot be dealt with. Yeah. So John,
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  what you're talking about is very reasonable.
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  I'm just asking questions. I'm not in judgment
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  here. That's the flaw. The church doesn't, it
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  just has a different point of view depending
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  on what church you're... You're in. And again,
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  if you're going to go from strict to loose, the
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  Baptist Church is very strict. I mean, the church
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  that we planted off of now, granted, I was the
• 16:27
  lead pastor, but when I was the assistant pastor,
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  you were playing Uno with some kids. And these
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  old ladies were like, I never thought I'd see
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  the day that cards were being played in the house
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  of the Lord. I'm like, it's not strip Uno. Like
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  we're not drinking. So, I mean, just outrageously,
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  and I was trying to come back from that, but
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  we're still in this realm of between you and
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  me, and the way that I am now, I've changed a
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  decent bit from when I was pastoring. But if
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  I see somebody who gets someone pregnant out
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  of wedlock, I'm just like, hey, buddy, is there
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  anything I can do to help you? There, it's like,
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  oh my gosh, this is a scandal. Can he even be
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  up front? because he's a fallen leader. There's
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  so much stigma that with it, that it brings complications.
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  So your question is ridiculous because of its
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  simplicity. Well, sorry. And, and, and this might
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  be another ridiculously a simpleton question.
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  Forgive me. I grew up in a Baptist Christian
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  environment. My parents raised me that way. And
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  I eventually just left the religion. Um, and
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  one of the reasons that turned me off from it
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  was how the church has traditionally treated
• 17:41
  members of the queer community because along
• 17:44
  the way in life, I went from like my parents
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  telling me that, oh, I should like fear and,
• 17:50
  and judge gay people to me just finding out on
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  my own through friends and conversations with
• 17:55
  others that they're people just like I am people
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  as a straight person and they have the right
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  to love whoever they want. So Yeah, right. Who
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  knew? Who knew? So and along the way I found
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  out that there was a beautiful nuance in Christianity
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  because I found that there are churches that
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  traditionally don't accept the queer love lifestyle.
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  And then there are churches that are open to
• 18:19
  that, that are like, Hey, like if you love God,
• 18:21
  then we don't care who you love. Like come in,
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  you're welcome. So I guess my question to the
• 18:27
  grace that you were able to give to that gay
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  couple that you mentioned back in your church
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  days, like when you had them come into the church,
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  uh, regardless of them being gay, is the goal
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  to just simply like, Hey, like we want to accept
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  you and become God loving people and that's it.
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  Or is it like, all right, we want to have you
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  read the word of God and then maybe that'll convert
• 18:50
  you away from the gay lifestyle. Does that make
• 18:52
  sense? Yeah, that's a really good question. The
• 18:55
  difficult, the difficulty is me trying to answer
• 18:57
  it now, because now I can tell you easily. My
• 19:01
  answer is. Hey, we want to love you and help
• 19:04
  you love other people and build a community.
• 19:07
  And this is what we think God says. And also
• 19:10
  now I'm going to stop following that same ridiculous,
• 19:13
  just an inhuman line of dogma that you and I
• 19:18
  both grew up with, which is, well, you hate the
• 19:21
  sin, but you love the sinner. And that's, that's
• 19:23
  garbage. Yeah. So I hate how you identify. I
• 19:27
  hate who you are. I hate that you love this person,
• 19:30
  but I love you. And that's bullshit. That's not,
• 19:34
  that's not legitimate. And, and this is great
• 19:37
  because I always want to be accepting. So if
• 19:40
  we're talking about back then, I'm like, Nope,
• 19:42
  I want to be accepting. I still want to be true
• 19:44
  to scripture. And I had that view of scripture
• 19:47
  of the hard line. And then this is what's awesome,
• 19:51
  John. This is why I'm a better person now. I'm
• 19:55
  trying to think how many years ago five about
• 19:58
  five years ago My oldest came to us and said
• 20:01
  he's transgender and so that broke me That's
• 20:05
  that that's what I needed to snap me from that
• 20:08
  I want to give grace But still there's truth
• 20:11
  here because I believe in God I believe he's
• 20:14
  real and I can tell you some reasons why I think
• 20:16
  that but I don't see him that kid I see him so
• 20:20
  I'm gonna I'm gonna value what I can touch over
• 20:23
  something I trust and have faith in, but it is
• 20:27
  unseen and unknown. So you want to call it blasphemy.
• 20:30
  I'm going to value my family over this notion
• 20:33
  of God that you and I could argue about, and
• 20:36
  neither of us is right. So why not value what
• 20:40
  is definitely true? So fully loving, fully showing
• 20:44
  kindness, fully embracing. my child for everything
• 20:48
  that they believe and trust and abandoning that
• 20:52
  the things that I was trusting in before and
• 20:54
  I found that my gosh that's so freeing so the
• 20:57
  the notion that evangelicals meaning well would
• 21:00
  always hold to is scripturally speaking to speak
• 21:03
  the truth and love which they mean as when I
• 21:07
  tell you that homosexuality is wrong the love
• 21:10
  is that I'm saving you from hell so that's me
• 21:13
  showing you love. And again, garbage. So now
• 21:16
  I don't speak the truth and love. I just love.
• 21:19
  That's so much simpler. Look at that. Just love
• 21:22
  people. Great. That's wonderful. And as for a
• 21:27
  kid who transitions, as you mentioned about your
• 21:31
  oldest, I feel like again, going back to nuance,
• 21:34
  like it is possible to be both compassionate
• 21:38
  to the person that they genuinely are, while
• 21:41
  also being understandably scared for what that
• 21:44
  reality could be for them. Like everything from
• 21:47
  the surgery to how they're treated by others
• 21:49
  and, you know. You are so on. And so this is
• 21:52
  what I, this is not what you thought you're going
• 21:53
  to get into with an FBI agent. This is what I,
• 21:58
  then this is what I had to reconcile and. deal
• 22:02
  with so I was Concerned like hey, man, that's
• 22:06
  that's a choice. That's gonna be tough for you
• 22:08
  So I support you but living living as a trans
• 22:12
  man is harder It's harder than just being like
• 22:16
  a lesbian like this is it's tough, right? So
• 22:20
  I you know, so I'm scared for that But the biggest
• 22:22
  thing I had to grapple with was me mourning what
• 22:26
  I wanted what I wanted Right. I envision, hey,
• 22:31
  they're going to grow up, meet a guy, I'll have
• 22:33
  grandkids. That was my dream for them, which
• 22:37
  is unfair, but I still had to mourn it. I still
• 22:40
  had to say, okay, that was what I wanted. Yeah.
• 22:43
  I got to set that aside because, hey, Eric, what
• 22:46
  do you want most? Oh, I want their happiness
• 22:48
  most. Okay. Well, this is happiness for them.
• 22:50
  Great. But I still had to address that. And I'm
• 22:52
  glad that you did address that. Okay. Now I want
• 22:57
  to get to the FBI for real. Where do you begin?
• 23:01
  Do you just go to the FBI website? They say,
• 23:04
  Hey, apply to be an agent. And then they call
• 23:06
  you for an interview. Is it that like average
• 23:08
  job process? Like is it really? That's it. Oh,
• 23:12
  John, it's not average. So I was applying in
• 23:15
  2000 and the internet was just a babe it was
• 23:19
  around enough so that i could download 60 pages
• 23:22
  to fill in by hand or on the computer but like
• 23:24
  now you just it's all online and it's easy but
• 23:27
  it's everywhere that you've been done came across
• 23:31
  since you were 16 extended family phone numbers
• 23:34
  so i can talk to them everywhere you lived every
• 23:37
  job you've had the employers, it's everything.
• 23:41
  You submit that as agent and there's other positions,
• 23:44
  but as an agent, you have to have a bachelor's
• 23:46
  degree and at least three years experience outside
• 23:48
  of school. So they can say, okay, you know, you've
• 23:50
  grown up, you've got some maturity. And then
• 23:53
  the applicant coordinator looks at it and says,
• 23:55
  okay, this guy, I think he looks good enough,
• 23:57
  moves on. The phase one test phase one test is
• 24:00
  like tech taking the SAT and I'm a, I'm a pretty
• 24:03
  smart guy, but I took that SAT and went, I tried,
• 24:07
  you know, at least you're giving me PTSD. I hated
• 24:10
  those Saturdays when I had to take the SAT. I
• 24:12
  don't know how I was able to bear through that.
• 24:14
  So I get where you're at. Yeah. They come back
• 24:16
  and go, Hey, we'd like to go further with you.
• 24:18
  Like seriously. Oh, really? Yeah. And so with
• 24:22
  my background in uh, talking to Muslims, studying
• 24:25
  Islam. In the meantime, while my application's
• 24:28
  in process, 9 -11 hits and they go, Oh, we've
• 24:31
  got an al -Qaeda problem. This guy knows the
• 24:33
  people in al -Qaeda. So from there it's, um,
• 24:38
  oral test. You know, you explain situations you've
• 24:41
  been in and how you responded written test. I
• 24:43
  can write. So like now it's more in my hands.
• 24:46
  PT test. I was in shape. Great. Let's go physical.
• 24:49
  I'm fit. And now can I ask what, when, when,
• 24:52
  uh, the management, so to speak, saw that you
• 24:55
  had that Islam experience, were they approaching
• 24:57
  it from, he can help us like take down the enemy
• 25:01
  or was it from the, was it from the standpoint
• 25:04
  of like, Oh, maybe like he can have a conversation
• 25:07
  with them and we could figure out like why it
• 25:10
  is and have some compassion and understanding.
• 25:12
  Like, what is it? Like, what does that mean?
• 25:13
  So this is me guessing. I mean, they may have
• 25:16
  just said, Hey, this guy's He meets the mark.
• 25:19
  So we'll just pass them on. If he fails, he fails.
• 25:21
  But, um, you know, it could have been, Hey, we've
• 25:24
  got to recruit informants. This guy is, this
• 25:27
  guy was trying to recruit people to leave their
• 25:29
  religions. Here's somebody who can recruit informants,
• 25:31
  but also help to understand and investigations.
• 25:34
  What's the mindset here? But to that point, I
• 25:37
  get on with the FBI and my first assignment was,
• 25:40
  uh, working drugs. So whatever. Okay. That's
• 25:45
  how the government works. And this is like during
• 25:47
  the peak of 9 11 when the more of the focus was
• 25:50
  like terrorism, Islamophobia, like that kind
• 25:52
  of thing. Yeah. In the wake of it, but like,
• 25:55
  so this was April, 2002 and the process was just,
• 26:00
  we need bodies on a drug squad. Here's a body.
• 26:02
  We're going to put them on a drug squad. So they're
• 26:04
  just, they're just filling holes at that time.
• 26:06
  Can you give me an experience that stands out
• 26:09
  from, uh, that drug era, like just like something
• 26:13
  where you're, I mean, the classic, oh my God,
• 26:15
  I got to tell this story to my grandkids about,
• 26:18
  about this memorable drug incident. Yeah. So
• 26:21
  I was working on a wiretap in a, I was loaned
• 26:26
  over to another office. within our division called
• 26:30
  the Northern Satellite Office. So I lived north
• 26:34
  most. They needed a body. So I went there. So
• 26:37
  we're sitting wiretaps and we're sitting wiretaps
• 26:39
  on a guy who was selling crack. And I had been
• 26:42
  on wiretaps before and like, OK, they're fine.
• 26:45
  Call comes in, you listen to it, you transcribe
• 26:48
  it, you mark it pertinent or not pertinent and
• 26:51
  you get time. And maybe if there's a couple back
• 26:53
  to back, you got to play a little catch up. And
• 26:56
  you got an eight hour shift, no problem. This
• 26:58
  is the first time I'm sitting on a crack dealer's
• 27:00
  phone and people were calling him as if they
• 27:03
  were all addicted to crack. Like bam, bam, bam.
• 27:07
  I mean, it was impossible to keep up. And so
• 27:10
  we're doing that. And the whole goal was to pinch
• 27:13
  that dealer as he was getting. dope from his
• 27:16
  supplier. And his supplier was an OG gangster
• 27:20
  from that area that my partners had been looking
• 27:23
  at for a long time. And they believe this guy
• 27:25
  was one of his buyers. Well, on the line, we
• 27:29
  hear of a deal where the subject we were really
• 27:31
  looking for was going to be bringing a kilo,
• 27:34
  maybe two of Coke to the crack dealer. And so
• 27:37
  we set up on it, knock him down, the guys pitch
• 27:40
  him, he flips, ends up being a great informant
• 27:42
  because he's He's like mid 50s, been in the game
• 27:45
  for a long time, not hard to handle. Fantastic.
• 27:49
  So we send him into his supplier and then we
• 27:51
  get up on his phone too. So we're listening to
• 27:54
  now Mexican cartel affiliated dope dealer. And
• 27:57
  we send him in the, the OG into the cartel guy's
• 28:02
  apartment. He lived in a really nice condo just
• 28:05
  south of the loop in Chicago. And he goes in,
• 28:07
  we've got like a little button camera, which
• 28:10
  that's not giving away like. We've got those.
• 28:12
  So he goes in and the cartel guy shows him 45
• 28:17
  kilos of cocaine that he just got, which is approximately
• 28:20
  a million dollars. Wow. So my buddies write what's
• 28:24
  known as a surreptitious search warrant. So if
• 28:27
  I execute a search warrant at your house, while
• 28:29
  you're there, I have to show you, this is proof
• 28:32
  that a judge authorizes. If you're not there,
• 28:34
  we leave it so that you can see, yep, authorized.
• 28:37
  A surreptitious search warrant is asking the
• 28:39
  judge, hey, may we delay notification? And so
• 28:43
  in a sense, we're breaking in to your house to
• 28:46
  get what we want. So the whole setup was he's
• 28:49
  in this fancy gated condo where you need a card
• 28:52
  to get in and then there's out. And so I'm driving
• 28:55
  a van. with like five guys in it and we're waiting
• 28:58
  outside and I'm watching the out the exit gate
• 29:02
  and the whole goal is wait till that gate pops
• 29:04
  up somebody leaves and then I gotta scream down
• 29:07
  it in the van and I'm doing that while I am praying
• 29:11
  that nobody comes out at the same time right
• 29:14
  we get in we sit in the van where we can watch
• 29:17
  the dopers vehicle he leaves and then the guys
• 29:21
  go upstairs bust in the door and steal a million
• 29:24
  dollars worth of cocaine that hold on to his
• 29:26
  evidence. And then we got to go back and listen
• 29:28
  to the phone. And this guy is crying as he calls
• 29:31
  our now informant saying he's going to get killed
• 29:34
  because he just lost the million dollars. Wow.
• 29:37
  Lots at stake with the drugs. Lots at stake.
• 29:40
  Oh my God. He's looking to make a million, but
• 29:43
  also if it gets stolen, you're out. And getting
• 29:45
  arrested, didn't get killed. So that was okay.
• 29:47
  Those high stakes. Is there a certain adrenaline
• 29:49
  that comes through you to the point where like,
• 29:52
  Oh yeah. Like you're it's it's excited adrenaline.
• 29:55
  Like, Oh my God, this, this is going to be the
• 29:58
  chase of my life. And, and also. Have you ever
• 30:01
  felt any guilt along the way for feeling set
• 30:03
  adrenaline? Because, you know, at the end of
• 30:05
  the day, like somebody could get killed and these
• 30:07
  are drugs that could kill people and yada, yada,
• 30:09
  yada. No, I didn't feel guilt. I felt good about
• 30:11
  it. But yes, prior to almost every arrest, I
• 30:14
  would get what I refer to as a search warrant
• 30:16
  tinkles. Cause like, you know, here you are and
• 30:19
  you're ready to go and you're like, damn it,
• 30:20
  now I got to pee again. Like the body's like,
• 30:22
  Hey, let's flush the system. Cause you got to
• 30:24
  get ready to fight. And so everybody's there
• 30:26
  thinking, Oh, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta pee cause
• 30:28
  I'm, I'm all jazzed up. Thanks. You've mentioned
• 30:31
  dealing with teen prostitution in, I mean, tell
• 30:36
  me all about that world. I'm not familiar with
• 30:39
  it. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's not, yeah, obviously
• 30:44
  that's what I meant. Like in a, in a strictly
• 30:47
  informational sense, obviously not in a personal
• 30:49
  experience sense, that would be bad. But tell
• 30:51
  me about that experience because I would imagine
• 30:55
  by nature of them being minors, the end goal
• 30:58
  is always the same, right? to get these teenagers
• 31:01
  out of this, out of this profession, which they
• 31:04
  legally should not be in. And what's that like?
• 31:07
  I mean, are like, what's the, what's the ratio
• 31:10
  of like teenagers who are forced into this versus
• 31:12
  teenagers who may be like, they, they chose this,
• 31:15
  they want to do this. And maybe there's like
• 31:17
  some resistance. Like, how is that world for
• 31:19
  you? Yeah. The, the, the, the percentage is,
• 31:22
  is a hundred to nothing from my experience. So
• 31:26
  the teenagers are into it, like they may be drawn
• 31:29
  into it a little bit, but the ones that we were
• 31:31
  running into were making that choice. Again,
• 31:34
  you're a 16 -year -old making that choice, obviously
• 31:37
  it's not a good one, and it's a choice made out
• 31:39
  of desperation because they're abandoned, every
• 31:42
  adult in their life is either useless or abusive,
• 31:45
  drug addict, so now they're on their own, and
• 31:48
  if you can imagine what it would be like for
• 31:51
  some woman in your life that you know, to say
• 31:54
  hey what would it take for you to go out now
• 31:57
  and begin having sex with men you don't know
• 32:00
  for money and they're all disgusting I can tell
• 32:03
  you that like they're not hot guys that threshold
• 32:06
  that you have to step over to do that is very
• 32:08
  significant and that's and that's for a mature
• 32:11
  woman perhaps who can like work through those
• 32:15
  issues these are young girls who can't even know
• 32:19
  how to handle difficulties in their life. So
• 32:21
  the idea that they are doing this willingly shows
• 32:25
  how broken and or desperate they are already
• 32:28
  to make a choice to say, yeah, this is how I'm
• 32:31
  going to earn money. It's going to be having
• 32:33
  sex with disgusting men. So they are almost always
• 32:37
  Doing this on their own but the difference between
• 32:40
  you and me and the pimps is the pimps are looking
• 32:43
  for them so that they can Manipulate them further
• 32:46
  and make money off of them You and I if we came
• 32:49
  across a young girl in this situation would try
• 32:51
  to help them rather than exploit them so yeah
• 32:54
  our job was to get those men off the street and
• 32:58
  Bring justice punish them and then the difficulty
• 33:01
  was working with the girls because did I get
• 33:03
  slapped and spit on and cursed at because You
• 33:07
  know, I'm ruining their livelihood. I'm taking
• 33:10
  away the one adult who's ever loved them. He
• 33:14
  knows how to manipulate, but this girl thinks
• 33:16
  that's the only person who's ever been there
• 33:18
  for her and I'm arresting them. So it, it took
• 33:21
  a while to separate them from each other that
• 33:24
  oftentimes now would start to sink in that. Yeah.
• 33:26
  Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I get it. Now that guy was
• 33:28
  terrible. Are these like say like 15 year old
• 33:31
  girls that are for legal reasons, trying to pass
• 33:35
  themselves off as like. 21 or 22 year olds, or
• 33:38
  are they like letting them, are they letting
• 33:40
  their clients explicitly, you know, okay, I'm
• 33:42
  a 15 year old. You know what I mean? They're
• 33:44
  not, they're not advertising that they're underage
• 33:46
  because if they did, and this was, this was years
• 33:49
  ago. So they were on back page mainly. And so
• 33:52
  it's almost like the Craig's list of like trying
• 33:55
  to, and Craigslist was Yeah. Unfortunately, I
• 33:59
  know what back page is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And,
• 34:01
  uh, the great book on the takedown of back page
• 34:04
  by district attorney out of New York. And there
• 34:07
  was always the, the FBI always fought the attorney
• 34:11
  generals trying to take down back page because
• 34:14
  if you had back page, yes, you're proliferating
• 34:17
  prostitution, but then we at least knew where
• 34:20
  to go to find. these underage girls, you take
• 34:23
  that away. And now how are we finding them? So
• 34:26
  we're always, you could subpoena back page. You
• 34:29
  get the stuff back. If some Russian server comes
• 34:32
  in and says, Hey, we're going to do this. Now,
• 34:35
  now we couldn't get the information. Yeah. Cause
• 34:37
  that, cause nowadays I don't even know how, like,
• 34:40
  do you go through the yellow pages? Do you go
• 34:41
  through a street corner? Like it's probably a
• 34:43
  lot less obvious nowadays with the back page
• 34:45
  not being there anymore. Yeah. I don't, I don't
• 34:47
  even know. Cause I've been out of it. And my
• 34:49
  buddies who work that now. have angled more towards
• 34:54
  online undercovers where they're looking for
• 34:57
  much worse people, the guys who are looking to
• 34:59
  offend against infants or saying posing as somebody
• 35:03
  wanting to trade their children for someone else.
• 35:06
  So you can have my kids, here's their ages. than
• 35:09
  I can be with your kids. That's as much as pimping
• 35:12
  is bad and the teen prostitution is bad. That
• 35:15
  stuff is just off the charts, horrible. In a
• 35:17
  scenario where you're successfully getting a
• 35:19
  teenage girl away from prostitution, are there
• 35:22
  like active steps to get them involved in the
• 35:25
  regular job world? Like, do you like, like, do
• 35:28
  you say like, here's a brochure or here's a website
• 35:29
  or here's an employment agency? Here's like,
• 35:32
  are resources that you could use to become a
• 35:35
  legitimate American employee, if that makes any
• 35:38
  sense? Yeah. Here's a brochure. I don't know.
• 35:41
  I'm just asking. Or is it just more so you get
• 35:46
  them out of prostitution and then they're left
• 35:49
  to fend on their own? Yeah. So obviously we care.
• 35:52
  Our job isn't the girl. We know we're trying
• 35:55
  to get the girl safe and we got to secure her
• 35:58
  so she can testify later, things like that. But
• 36:00
  our job is just a pimp. And so I remember the
• 36:02
  first time we're running an operation, and here's
• 36:06
  Pete, our long -term task force officer with
• 36:09
  Toledo PD. done undercover for so long with vice
• 36:12
  and we he's targeting a prostitute he believes
• 36:15
  is underage she comes in we get her she is underage
• 36:19
  we arrest the pimp and then i remember going
• 36:21
  well hell now what do we do because we don't
• 36:23
  want to put them in jail because they're victims
• 36:26
  They have committed a crime legitimately, but
• 36:28
  you don't want to do that. You send them back
• 36:31
  to the foster home where they were. They're just
• 36:32
  going to run away again. They're just going to
• 36:35
  find like there's just be targeted by another
• 36:36
  pimp. And so we operated best when we had, um,
• 36:41
  social workers ready to work with us, some non
• 36:44
  -governmental organizations or ministries, charities
• 36:47
  who were there to say, Hey, You know, I'm a 40
• 36:50
  year old woman who used to prostitute. I've got
• 36:52
  five beds at my place where, you know, girls
• 36:55
  can come. So when we had those next steps, they're
• 36:58
  out of our hands. We can't get hotel rooms for
• 37:01
  them. They're just going to prostitute out of
• 37:03
  them. Right, right, right. They're not staying
• 37:04
  at my place. So like, I mean, really, I remember
• 37:07
  the first time going, oh my gosh, now what? That
• 37:10
  part was easy. This is hard. Money's tight for
• 37:15
  a lot of people nowadays and it being America,
• 37:19
  like this could be a perfect opportunity for
• 37:21
  those to... really scam the financial system
• 37:25
  for their own benefit. I think of people like
• 37:28
  Bernie Madoff, you know, he was big when I was
• 37:31
  like, just getting out of high school, going
• 37:32
  into college, he got arrested and then I think
• 37:34
  he's now dead. Yeah, he died in jail, didn't
• 37:36
  he? Yeah. You had mentioned also dealing with
• 37:39
  financial crimes as an FBI agent. Can you give
• 37:42
  me like, again, much like with drugs, like what's
• 37:45
  the most memorable or heartbreaking financial
• 37:49
  crime that stands out? Well, I mean, the most
• 37:51
  memorable This is the most memorable case I ever
• 37:54
  had because I worked it for many years. We had
• 37:56
  a main subject named Mark Wittenmeyer. And when
• 37:59
  I came to the Cleveland division and working
• 38:01
  out of the Toledo office in 2010, I started working
• 38:04
  a case on him that came in saying, hey, he's
• 38:08
  been taking money from investors. And as I look
• 38:11
  into him, he started, ask your dad about this
• 38:14
  later, about MCI WorldCom and how people used
• 38:18
  to get calls to say, How much are you paying
• 38:20
  for your long distance? We can bundle it and
• 38:23
  you can pay 12 cents a minute. So he was involved
• 38:26
  in that in the mid 90s and he was making a million
• 38:29
  dollars a year in the 90s selling long distance
• 38:31
  legitimately. He's with MCI Worldcom. They go
• 38:34
  bust and now he's moving on to new businesses
• 38:37
  where he has a real product. So he contracts
• 38:40
  with somebody else and says, Hey, I can sell
• 38:42
  this. I'll get investors so that we can build
• 38:46
  out this. technology, whatever it might be. And
• 38:49
  it was always real. It was legitimate. But when
• 38:51
  the money came in and people looked at him and
• 38:53
  go, that guy's successful because look at his
• 38:55
  house. He had a trophy wife. She was like the
• 38:57
  Heisman of trophy wives. The mansion was on the
• 39:01
  first tee of the country club, multiple Lamborghinis.
• 39:05
  All of that came from investor money. So people
• 39:08
  would give him $200 ,000 to say, oh, this is
• 39:11
  going to be a great product. And he would spend
• 39:13
  it on himself. One of the products that he had
• 39:17
  that he was getting investors to give money to
• 39:20
  would eventually become Bing. And he defaulted
• 39:24
  on it. He defaulted on it because he was just
• 39:27
  using the money for himself. So by the time I
• 39:30
  got onto him, he'd already bankrupted a handful
• 39:34
  of companies. And he had since then moved on
• 39:37
  to this crazy world that was fascinating. It
• 39:40
  was brokering counterfeit or fraudulent overseas
• 39:44
  bonds. And so, Mark believed that he was bypassing
• 39:48
  American laws that you'd have to have a Series
• 39:50
  7 license to be a broker by saying, hey, these
• 39:55
  are overseas, so I don't... I don't need that
• 39:57
  license, which was untrue. On top of that, all
• 40:00
  of these bonds were fake. So you look at them,
• 40:02
  and they were just ridiculous. And he would be
• 40:05
  saying like, oh, I'm going to get one point commission
• 40:07
  if I can find a buyer for this $100 billion bond.
• 40:11
  And so he wasn't greedy. He was only going to
• 40:13
  get 1 % of the hunt. And so I'd be in interviewing
• 40:17
  people that he was calling and are part of this
• 40:20
  world. And I talked to one woman and she goes,
• 40:22
  no, this is absolutely true. Like these things
• 40:25
  are real. And she told me she had one client
• 40:28
  who owned a quad. And I said, what's a quad?
• 40:31
  And she said, That's a bond that's worth a quadrillion
• 40:35
  dollars Okay, damn, and I don't know if there's
• 40:39
  a quadrillion dollars in the world like probably
• 40:41
  I don't know like a couple quadrillion first
• 40:45
  quadrillion air so But this was the crazy stuff
• 40:49
  they believed in. And so Mark was saying, oh,
• 40:51
  I've got these people. I've got connections.
• 40:55
  He claimed he was meeting with the Knights of
• 40:57
  Malta. I don't know. Are you familiar with the
• 40:59
  Knights of Malta? No, no. Tell me more. Oh, OK.
• 41:01
  Well, it sounds like some curse of Oak Island.
• 41:05
  Ancient group that has golden crowns and Scrooge
• 41:08
  McDuck money in a cave the Knights of Malta I
• 41:11
  think I think Mark was either like mixing them
• 41:13
  up with the Knights Templar Knights of Malta.
• 41:16
  It was a Catholic charity. Oh, wow So he's saying
• 41:20
  oh, I've got a hundred billion dollar deal with
• 41:22
  a Catholic charity I mean Catholic Church does
• 41:25
  have a lot of money, but yeah, they do anyway
• 41:27
  this goes on And I finally get him because he
• 41:31
  got ahold of a Fannie Mae bond package. So now
• 41:35
  this is real. This is a real Fannie Mae bond.
• 41:38
  But he was selling that you could buy it for
• 41:40
  15 million and it would mature to like 115 million.
• 41:44
  And yet what he was selling, he did not understand
• 41:47
  or he misrepresented on purpose. It was a bundle
• 41:50
  of mortgages. and was sold to businesses who
• 41:54
  had been successful. So your company makes a
• 41:57
  lot of money this year and you need to buy something
• 42:00
  to offset that. And so you need to take on debt.
• 42:03
  And so this bond didn't mature to 115 million.
• 42:07
  It would mature to zero. So over time, as you
• 42:11
  pay off your house and I pay off my house, the
• 42:14
  debt is less. And so it got down to actually
• 42:17
  zero. But he was claiming otherwise. and he convinced
• 42:20
  someone to invest in it. He and his partner get
• 42:23
  $500 ,000. It would be a million for, so 500
• 42:26
  on the buy side, 500 on the sell side. And those,
• 42:29
  he spent $500 ,000 in 45 days and he spent it
• 42:34
  on nothing. Nothing. He bought nothing of value.
• 42:37
  Just gambling, restaurants, luggage, like piddly
• 42:41
  stuff. Like the kind of thing that if I challenged
• 42:43
  you, you would have a hard time doing, but just...
• 42:46
  burned right through it. And then, so that, that's
• 42:48
  what kicked off the prosecutor's day. Okay, let's,
• 42:51
  let's finally get them. And so we did, we charged
• 42:53
  him with all the stuff. This case that I worked
• 42:55
  on for years, this case on this guy, I, I couldn't
• 42:58
  stand and was like hurting so many victims. Uh,
• 43:01
  they gave him five and a half years, which I
• 43:03
  thought was ridiculous, but that didn't. matter,
• 43:06
  because he spent like a year in prison and then
• 43:08
  he got let out for a compassionate release for
• 43:11
  COVID. Compassionate release for COVID. They
• 43:14
  didn't want him infecting anybody else in prison,
• 43:16
  so they let him out for his and everybody else's
• 43:19
  health. So you could petition to say nonviolent
• 43:21
  crime. Here's some extenuating circumstances.
• 43:25
  Please let me out. Maybe I have a health issue.
• 43:27
  So his partner was, um, he, he got, he caught
• 43:31
  another charge and fought him both times. He
• 43:33
  got put in later. And so he was in for like two
• 43:36
  months when he applied to get out. And his argument
• 43:39
  was he was fat. And, and when you're fat, you're
• 43:42
  more likely to get COVID. And the judge said
• 43:45
  denied. So for civil rights violations, tell
• 43:51
  me about that. Was it like, was it just specifically
• 43:54
  racially based? Was it just all around sort of
• 43:56
  human rights things that you were dealing with?
• 43:58
  Like, tell me, tell me a story that stands out.
• 44:01
  So many of them. Oh my God. Well, so, so the
• 44:04
  FBI works a few different civil rights violations.
• 44:09
  There's the FACE Act, which is freedom of access
• 44:12
  to clinics. There could be Racial, which is freedom
• 44:15
  to access housing or federal byways, that type
• 44:19
  of thing, based on color, beliefs, gender. And
• 44:25
  then what we mainly worked in Chicago was Color
• 44:28
  of Law violations, which is a police officer
• 44:32
  going beyond violating your constitutional rights
• 44:35
  in in the line of duty. So when I got onto that
• 44:38
  squad in Chicago, my buddy Jake was working a
• 44:40
  case where the Chicago police officer was arresting
• 44:44
  a guy in a wheelchair outside of a hospital.
• 44:46
  Guy was like getting mouthy with him, spit on
• 44:49
  him. He's handcuffed to the wheelchair. Officer
• 44:51
  went to his vehicle, got a sapper, which is a
• 44:54
  lead -filled piece of leather, and then beat
• 44:56
  him with it while he was handcuffed. That's illegal.
• 45:00
  I mean, the guy instigated it, but he can't do
• 45:02
  that. And so he lost his job. And at that point,
• 45:05
  the prosecutor's office says, eh, let's just
• 45:07
  leave it at that. Like, the guy is no longer
• 45:09
  a cop. He got pushed too far, and he went too
• 45:11
  far. Well, the police union was so good, they
• 45:14
  got his job back. And that's when he ended up
• 45:17
  going to jail, because at that point, it triggered
• 45:19
  like, all right, well, let's get him then. So
• 45:22
  we would look into police. Going too far. I mean
• 45:26
  it would be a fourth amendment violation of undue
• 45:29
  seizure So if I break your arm if I arrest you
• 45:34
  and there's no probable cause to it If it's not
• 45:37
  just then that's an illegal seizure if I if I
• 45:40
  kill you when I should not I have seized your
• 45:43
  life and that's illegal. So I get into Chicago,
• 45:46
  my buddy Jake and the rest of the team there
• 45:49
  are already working a case on Chicago police
• 45:51
  commander John Burge, who in the 70s and 80s,
• 45:54
  along with his team of detectives were regularly
• 45:57
  torturing subjects of investigations and the
• 46:00
  subjects were almost exclusively black males.
• 46:02
  So they would beat them with phone books, use
• 46:05
  typewriter covers to asphyxiate them. And we
• 46:09
  heard many, many stories of what Burge and his
• 46:11
  team had done to get confessions out of these
• 46:13
  men. There was this long story how Burge, who
• 46:17
  was a Vietnam soldier, used a Vietnam era crank
• 46:21
  phone. So you crank it, it would conduct electricity,
• 46:25
  and he would attach the alligator clips to the
• 46:28
  genitals of the subject and shock them until
• 46:31
  they finally gave in. So We're not looking at
• 46:34
  bank records, because they're not around. We
• 46:36
  can't subpoena phone records. We were exclusively
• 46:39
  making this case based on interviews. And these
• 46:41
  were events that happened 20, 25 years prior.
• 46:45
  The reason we were able to go after him was Elliott
• 46:48
  Ness' style against Al Capone. A few years prior,
• 46:52
  Burge had been sued by one of the victims in
• 46:54
  federal court civilly. And in his testimony,
• 46:57
  he said that he knew nothing of torture that
• 47:00
  took place in Chicago's police area 2. where
• 47:03
  he worked and if we could prove that he did know
• 47:06
  because he did it then that would be perjury
• 47:09
  and obstruction of justice so we're going back
• 47:12
  interviewing people you know trying to remember
• 47:15
  things from 15 to 25 years ago and give us those
• 47:19
  details talking to many of the victims and these
• 47:23
  victims were actually criminals so Many of them
• 47:26
  were tortured and so were getting their story,
• 47:29
  but they also had committed the crime. So one
• 47:32
  guy was telling me about how Burge and his team,
• 47:34
  blackmail, had taken him under a bridge. He was
• 47:37
  handcuffed behind his back and then one of the
• 47:40
  detectives stood on the bumper of a vehicle and
• 47:42
  lifted up on his hands until he thought his arms
• 47:45
  were gonna tear out. And he said because he confessed
• 47:47
  to the crime, he missed his mother's funeral
• 47:50
  who died while he was in prison. And I said,
• 47:52
  Well, did they make you confess to something
• 47:55
  you didn't do? Because I wanted to know. Yeah.
• 47:57
  And you said, no, but I never would have confessed.
• 48:00
  And I thought, OK, don't try to get sympathy
• 48:03
  for me for that. We're going to work on getting
• 48:07
  justice against these police officers. Because
• 48:10
  if you tell me that you raped a girl, and then
• 48:13
  the dad came and cut off parts of your body,
• 48:17
  I don't have a problem with that. But the police
• 48:20
  can't do that. And that was the issue that these
• 48:23
  police officers were out there torturing. So
• 48:25
  down the wire, we ended up getting a charge on
• 48:29
  John Burge and got a conviction. And I remember
• 48:32
  with all these stories we had heard about these
• 48:34
  guys being so tough. John Burge was four years
• 48:38
  older than I am now when we arrested him. He
• 48:40
  was 61. And I remember looking at him like he
• 48:43
  looked like he was 81, just fragile and weak.
• 48:47
  And that stood out to me that this guy, you know,
• 48:49
  not even far removed from being that man was
• 48:52
  just a shell and he's, he's dead now, which is
• 48:55
  great. Fantastic. Swat operating. This happened
• 49:02
  during your FBI tenure. Tell me what a SWAT operator
• 49:05
  does. How did you get into it? Like what's, what's
• 49:09
  that all about? Swat is an ancillary job. So
• 49:11
  while I'm a field agent, I'm doing investigations,
• 49:15
  then I'm also going to swap training, call outs,
• 49:18
  coming back and doing my investigations. So it's,
• 49:21
  you know, you're just. You're doing everything
• 49:23
  an agent does. You're just more trained. We have
• 49:25
  a few more tools and we're called when the threat
• 49:29
  level gets a little bit higher. So this guy's
• 49:31
  a gang member, violent criminal history, guns,
• 49:34
  cameras, dogs, whatever might be, difficult breach,
• 49:38
  difficult terrain. Now SWAT's called in because
• 49:41
  we have a bit more proficiency than agents have
• 49:45
  on squads. So we get called in and it's, I don't
• 49:47
  know what to say. You're just badass. It's the
• 49:50
  kind of thing that men, and we have our first
• 49:54
  female operator in Cleveland, great, great person,
• 49:57
  but you just want to be a part of because you
• 50:00
  get to do dangerous things, fulfilling things,
• 50:03
  but it's incredible the bonds that come when
• 50:06
  you are working at a high level next to someone
• 50:10
  else and both of you are regularly looking to
• 50:14
  support and defend the next one with. your life
• 50:17
  if need be. So we're going through life and death
• 50:19
  situations and then we come out of it. And that's
• 50:23
  going to bond. You know, you become closer to
• 50:25
  these men because you spent that time together
• 50:27
  supporting one another. So great time. I enjoyed
• 50:30
  it. I have a buddy who told me once he's, he
• 50:33
  graduated from Princeton and he said, I'm looking
• 50:35
  at all my friends from college and they're CEOs
• 50:38
  and doctors and doing great things. And I said,
• 50:42
  AJ, you're on an FBI SWAT team. They all wish
• 50:44
  they were you. Yeah, that is true. Has there
• 50:47
  ever been a mission where you or other SWAT members
• 50:50
  thought, oh crap, I don't know if this mission
• 50:52
  could be accomplished and we're scared. We're
• 50:55
  not sure how this is going to turn out or has
• 50:57
  it always been a hundred percent confidence going
• 50:59
  in and mission accomplished? Yeah, I was never
• 51:02
  scared. I never got the sense that anyone else
• 51:04
  was scared because we were so well trained and
• 51:08
  we're watching that and I'm seeing. I know what
• 51:11
  I can do and I feel fully capable. And then I
• 51:14
  look at the guys next to me and they're, they're
• 51:16
  at least capable as I am. Then you're going in,
• 51:19
  like even in complicated situations that break
• 51:21
  down and might not have gone the way you expected,
• 51:24
  we're still adapting and getting through it.
• 51:27
  So never afraid. Like there was one time we were
• 51:30
  looking to, we had a barricaded subject, a woman
• 51:33
  with mental health issues with her 10 year old
• 51:35
  son. And she said, if you guys come in here,
• 51:39
  bring body bags. Cause people are going to die.
• 51:41
  And one of the triggers for us making entry while
• 51:44
  we waited with the negotiators to do their job
• 51:46
  was if she fired a shot and she got upset, fired
• 51:50
  a shot through the door. And I remember looking
• 51:52
  at my team leader going, that's a gunshot. Are
• 51:55
  we going? And I wasn't scared, but I was very
• 51:57
  sobered thinking, I might just very soon find
• 52:00
  out what it feels like to get shot. And I bet
• 52:02
  that's not going to be fun. And did you? I did
• 52:05
  not. So the team, the team leaders talked about
• 52:08
  it with the negotiators, came to a consensus
• 52:11
  that she's still not threatening her kid. She's
• 52:14
  just got something buzzing in her head. So let's
• 52:17
  let this play out. So we had taken over for another
• 52:19
  SWAT team in the morning. They had been all night
• 52:21
  long. We took over in the morning and then we
• 52:24
  got another SWAT team then replaced us in the
• 52:27
  afternoon. So as we're walking a few hundred
• 52:30
  yards away and I'm peeling off all this gear
• 52:32
  from full day in the heat. It was like five minutes
• 52:36
  after they took our place. One shot, and then
• 52:40
  another shot. And they had decided they had no
• 52:42
  patience for this, started rattling her door
• 52:45
  with their robot. She goes out back, takes a
• 52:47
  shot at a sniper through the window, and the
• 52:49
  sniper put one in her face. In your entire time
• 52:51
  with the FBI and the SWAT team, have you ever
• 52:53
  been shot at? Ever been shot at? Yeah, like have
• 52:56
  you ever been shot? Like have you ever had a
• 52:58
  bullet go through you? No, no, no. Wow. So as
• 53:02
  I started in the FBI, my wife would text me,
• 53:04
  I'm in Chicago. She's like, tell me when you're
• 53:06
  safe. And I'm like, babe, I'm not getting shot.
• 53:09
  I'll die of a car accident or a heart attack.
• 53:11
  That's how I'm going to die. And then later in
• 53:13
  my career, as I've been successful, been safe
• 53:16
  on SWAT, I would say to her, hey, babe, we got
• 53:20
  an op coming on Tuesday. And she'd say, OK, I'll
• 53:23
  put it in the calendar. And I'd say, well, the
• 53:25
  guy is kind of dangerous, too. And she say, right,
• 53:28
  right. I say, he told me to inform it. He wouldn't
• 53:30
  be taken alive. And she go, I said, I'd put it
• 53:33
  in the calendar. What do you want me to do? And
• 53:35
  so she'd gone from like being really worried
• 53:37
  to like, ah, he's always home safe. Everything's
• 53:40
  fine. So 24 years I got through it, not getting
• 53:42
  shot. And is that a pure case of luck or is that
• 53:46
  just like a normal, like likelihood for agents?
• 53:50
  Like they're usually, they barely get shot at.
• 53:53
  Yeah. So it's, it's likelihood. So when we, unlike
• 53:58
  the police, so you're a police officer, dispatcher
• 54:01
  sends you to an address and you're getting whatever
• 54:03
  you get, pull it out of the bag, who knows what's
• 54:06
  happening. The FBI almost always gets to dictate
• 54:10
  time, place and circumstances for our arrest.
• 54:13
  So we know it's Tuesday and these are the guys
• 54:15
  who have rogered up to say, I can be there and
• 54:18
  this is your assignment, your assignment and
• 54:20
  we're going to run through the drills and here's
• 54:22
  video of the front door. Here's pictures of the
• 54:24
  side. Like we have gamed this in a way that is
• 54:28
  so much different. So especially SWAT. So when
• 54:31
  we show up and you're asleep and we get a tactical
• 54:34
  surrounding of the house and guys are in position,
• 54:37
  lasers on the guns pointing at windows and then
• 54:40
  on the loudspeaker, now we start saying FBI.
• 54:43
  come on out with your hands up, flashbangs being
• 54:46
  thrown, guys look out the window and they have
• 54:48
  two choices, surrender or they're gonna die.
• 54:51
  So it really brings that safety factor up. Cause
• 54:54
  some guys are gonna be stupid, but usually they're
• 54:56
  like, I knew this was coming and here it is.
• 54:59
  And now for what I ask every guest, these three
• 55:01
  delicious questions. I want to know Eric Robinson,
• 55:04
  what is a delicious meal you've had lately? So
• 55:06
  I've been keto for about 12 years. My children
• 55:10
  would say, I don't know what delicious is anymore,
• 55:14
  but you know, what's great is, is for me, it's,
• 55:16
  it's really narrowed down into like appreciating
• 55:21
  essential things. So I like sorry, before you
• 55:24
  go on, can you clarify what keto means? Cause
• 55:26
  you say keto and I think, Oh, I've seen like
• 55:28
  keto bread in the grocery store, but I've never
• 55:30
  known what the word means. Okay. Yeah, absolutely.
• 55:33
  I mean, I say keto is shorthand. I just live
• 55:36
  low carb. So I don't eat sugar. I minimize the
• 55:40
  sugars that are in any sauces or stuff. And then
• 55:42
  I just don't eat carbohydrates. I take in probably
• 55:45
  about 25, 30 grams of carbohydrates a day. So
• 55:49
  enough that it's ancillary and I don't worry
• 55:50
  about it. But because of that, my kids go, you
• 55:52
  don't know what good tastes like. So my answer
• 55:55
  is like these lips haven't tasted a legitimate
• 55:57
  pizza for a dozen years. Now with this decision
• 56:01
  to go keto, was that advised by a doctor or was
• 56:03
  that just you deciding that you wanted to do
• 56:05
  this? John, do you have fat pants in your closet?
• 56:09
  I have pants that may be a little too chunky
• 56:11
  for me, but I don't know if I would describe
• 56:12
  them as fat pants. Why? So I just got tired of
• 56:16
  like, I was never out of shape. But like I was
• 56:19
  tired of like gaining five pounds and like, eh,
• 56:21
  five pounds are fine. It's probably muscle anyway.
• 56:24
  And then eight pounds and then 12 pounds and
• 56:27
  then, and then 15 pounds. And then I let me starve
• 56:29
  myself for two weeks and get back. And then it
• 56:31
  would just go up again. And so I have weighed
• 56:33
  the exact same for, for 10, 12 years. And I eat
• 56:36
  whatever I want in, in the realm of these things
• 56:39
  that I like. So like, will you say, you know,
• 56:41
  what's something delicious? I love, I love cauliflower
• 56:44
  and cheese, man. It tastes great. Okay, and now
• 56:47
  now when we say cauliflower and cheese the cauliflower
• 56:50
  is cooked. Are you having sliced cheese a bar
• 56:52
  cheese? Like what are we talking about? Well,
• 56:54
  the best for me is my sister has this cheeseburger
• 56:58
  casserole, which probably sounds gross to you
• 57:01
  but it's cauliflower cooked or riced up with
• 57:04
  a little bit of mustard cheese onion and some
• 57:07
  hamburger and again, my kids would tell me I
• 57:10
  don't know what good tastes like anymore, but
• 57:12
  That tastes good to me. So the cheeseburger part
• 57:15
  of it, isn't the cheeseburger part of it like
• 57:17
  high on carbs or no? No, no. I mean, you have
• 57:20
  a little bit in the, a little bit of sugar in
• 57:22
  the lactose, but again, that's fine. You have
• 57:25
  fiber in the cauliflower as carbohydrates. I
• 57:28
  don't care. And then with everything else, it's
• 57:31
  very low carb and tastes delicious. And cheese
• 57:34
  is normally low carb too, right? She uses low
• 57:37
  carb. Again, there's some lactose to it. So there's
• 57:40
  that bit of sugar that, you know, whatever that's
• 57:43
  secondary. That's ancillary. I don't worry about
• 57:45
  that much. So when you're committing to this
• 57:48
  keto diet, low carb diet, first thing I'm thinking
• 57:50
  of is, are you like feeling sustained and full
• 57:55
  when you, when you eat your complete meal? Like,
• 57:58
  are you feeling bloated? Are you feeling just
• 58:00
  right where you're not wanting to pass out, but
• 58:02
  you also don't feel the need to eat more? Like
• 58:05
  what, what's, I mean, I eat more than I should
• 58:09
  probably. I eat plenty. So I'm eating, I mean,
• 58:13
  this is my life. Like you can put more in your
• 58:15
  stomach with a keto diet is where you're saying.
• 58:17
  Absolutely. I'm just, I enjoy vegetables. So
• 58:19
  I've got a low Cal dip and I'm you know, eating
• 58:21
  veggies and dip. I'm taking, this is how it works.
• 58:25
  While you're having a sandwich, I am too. I just
• 58:28
  have to wash my hands afterwards because I'm
• 58:30
  taking meat and cheese and dipping it in guac
• 58:33
  and, you know, getting my hands met. And then
• 58:35
  those 40 grams of carbohydrates that come from
• 58:38
  two pieces of bread that tastes like crap anyway,
• 58:41
  I'm missing out on it. Like granted, bread can
• 58:45
  taste good. I know this. But I like 10, 12 years
• 58:48
  living easy lifestyle. How about a delicious
• 58:50
  piece of pop culture that you're loving? Is there
• 58:52
  like a TV show, movie, book, play, podcast, music,
• 58:55
  anything in the culture that you're, that you're
• 58:56
  really on right now? So, you know, what's great
• 58:59
  is I'm sitting, I'm with my wife in bed and I
• 59:02
  go, babe, do you trust me? And she goes, yes.
• 59:06
  And I said, let's watch game of Thrones. Ah,
• 59:10
  yes. That was the phenomenon once. Yes. I said,
• 59:13
  I know you don't like dragons and magic and whatnot,
• 59:16
  but trust me, it's a really good show. And I
• 59:20
  watched a couple of times, but it had been years.
• 59:23
  So great. And so I'm walking her through it.
• 59:25
  This is what's fun is I get to experience it
• 59:27
  again with someone else. And we're watching Game
• 59:29
  of Thrones. She's like, this is amazing. And
• 59:32
  I said, yeah, this is great. So now I go, babe.
• 59:36
  Do you trust me? And so now we're in season one
• 59:39
  of the wire where I've watched it a few times.
• 59:42
  So like, let me introduce you to possibly the
• 59:44
  greatest TV show ever made. Like let's watch
• 59:46
  it. So season one, yes, definitely like some
• 59:49
  of the best television that I've ever. Two was
• 59:51
  rough. Two was rough. It is. I, and that's why
• 59:54
  I fell off the wire because like season two,
• 59:55
  when they were talking about like, What was the
• 59:58
  whole thing with the people in shipping containers
• 1:00:00
  and I think the common thread through all the
• 1:00:02
  seasons is that it takes place in Baltimore,
• 1:00:04
  but each season has a different cast of characters
• 1:00:06
  and how they handle the whole, you know, Baltimore
• 1:00:09
  legal system of sorts. But, um, yeah, season
• 1:00:13
  one, it just seems like this very like action
• 1:00:15
  packed intense. Like we're going to hunt down
• 1:00:17
  these drug dealers and these neighborhoods and
• 1:00:21
  it's all accurate too. It's so like this. Actually,
• 1:00:26
  it's not accurate in that Dopers are just not
• 1:00:29
  as strict as those guys. That's what they should
• 1:00:31
  do, but they people get lazy So like those layers
• 1:00:35
  that the Barksdale, Avon Barksdale has, Dopers
• 1:00:38
  just like, they do it for a while and then it's
• 1:00:40
  human nature to get lazy. They stick with it.
• 1:00:42
  Yeah. And I just remember like, oh God, the actor
• 1:00:46
  that unfortunately is not with us anymore, Michael,
• 1:00:49
  I think Michael K. Williams, he plays Omar. He
• 1:00:53
  plays Omar and Omar was, I mean, he was pretty
• 1:00:56
  much like the big cheese of drug dealers that
• 1:00:58
  they were hunting after in season one, right?
• 1:01:00
  He was the one who was... robbing all the other
• 1:01:04
  guys. And I just remember like how interesting
• 1:01:06
  he was because it's like here is this like symbol
• 1:01:11
  of like illegal machismo, but also, uh, he had,
• 1:01:15
  he had a homosexual thing about him. So it was,
• 1:01:19
  I was, I was like, Oh, okay. That's, that's a,
• 1:01:21
  that's a take that I've never seen before. Um,
• 1:01:25
  Yeah, and then I believe Idris Elba I was introduced
• 1:01:28
  to him through the wire and Michael B Jordan
• 1:01:30
  was just a kid when he played Wallace Yeah Yeah.
• 1:01:34
  Good, good pole. Yeah. He played Wallace. Yeah.
• 1:01:37
  And he got, and he got shot. I think he died.
• 1:01:39
  Don't ruin it for me. So many years, but no,
• 1:01:44
  man. I just, I remember hearing my college roommate,
• 1:01:47
  like, cause we had like bunk beds. I was on the
• 1:01:49
  lower one. He was on the upper one. And I remember
• 1:01:51
  hearing him like watch the wire and just thinking
• 1:01:54
  like, okay, I got to like get on this show that
• 1:01:56
  I seem to be hearing so much about. And I saw
• 1:01:59
  that first season and was just. Absolutely blown
• 1:02:02
  away. So that's a great choice. That is a great
• 1:02:03
  choice. But what's fun with that and Game of
• 1:02:08
  Thrones is I know what's happening, but now I'm
• 1:02:10
  understanding it more because I've already seen
• 1:02:11
  it a few times and now I'm not missing stuff.
• 1:02:13
  But then I get to experience it with someone
• 1:02:16
  who's doing it for the first time going, oh,
• 1:02:18
  wow. And then why are they doing this? I'm like,
• 1:02:20
  just wait, just wait. So when did you watch The
• 1:02:23
  Wire? Was this before you were in the FBI and
• 1:02:25
  SWAT? Was this after? No, I was in the FBI at
• 1:02:28
  the time. It was after I had already been sitting
• 1:02:33
  on wires, so then I'm watching it and I go, oh
• 1:02:35
  man, this is good. This is like how we did it.
• 1:02:39
  Okay. Yeah. I was going to say like, like what
• 1:02:41
  is the barrier of like realism between what you
• 1:02:44
  see in the wire and what you see in real life
• 1:02:45
  with law enforcement. And you're saying it was
• 1:02:47
  pretty accurate. Yeah. Yes. And, and I worked
• 1:02:50
  gangs as well. And so like the idea of like,
• 1:02:53
  you can't get in with them. They're going to
• 1:02:55
  know people like that. Absolutely true. Like
• 1:02:57
  you're getting called out ahead of time. But
• 1:02:59
  when I was working wire shifts, like you're either
• 1:03:02
  working a wire shift, you're on the street supporting
• 1:03:05
  it on surveillance. or those few times you get
• 1:03:08
  in the office. Now you're writing up the reports
• 1:03:10
  from the surveillance that you did. So it was
• 1:03:13
  just, I logged time my first few years in the
• 1:03:16
  FBI by which wires we were on because it was
• 1:03:19
  one after another. Anything in the show, the
• 1:03:21
  wire that you thought like, okay, no, that's
• 1:03:23
  kind of stretching it a little bit. That's not
• 1:03:24
  what actually happens. Not really. I mean, and
• 1:03:27
  also like this is going to be Baltimore police.
• 1:03:31
  So I can only say what we would do. I mean, even
• 1:03:34
  their interactions with the feds. I'm like, yeah,
• 1:03:35
  that's. That seems about right. Like guys looking
• 1:03:38
  to work together all the time. Game of Thrones,
• 1:03:40
  I got to try it again. Personally, I tried it.
• 1:03:43
  I think the first time that I tried it was with
• 1:03:45
  my then girlfriend at the time when I lived in
• 1:03:47
  Iowa. She was into it. I wasn't, but I hear that's
• 1:03:51
  not abnormal. I hear it can be kind of like slow
• 1:03:53
  to get into it at first and then like it picks
• 1:03:55
  up at some point. What was your experience with
• 1:03:57
  it? Were you into it from the beginning or did
• 1:03:59
  it take a while for you? From go, from go. I
• 1:04:01
  mean, They did enough to draw you in with the
• 1:04:04
  characters from the beginning where for me I
• 1:04:07
  was good and I'm pretty sure my wife took to
• 1:04:10
  it on the in early as well because you start
• 1:04:12
  seeing You see guys like Joffrey and like I hate
• 1:04:16
  that guy like this this guy's terrible And so
• 1:04:18
  that's now you've got this compelling character.
• 1:04:20
  You've already got the brother and sister harming
• 1:04:24
  the kid and like oh my god like so there's enough
• 1:04:26
  going on where you can start seeing the intrigue
• 1:04:29
  and then it just doesn't light up and i remember
• 1:04:31
  thinking oh yeah but the last season is so weak
• 1:04:35
  and then when i watched it again i thought that
• 1:04:37
  was better than i thought like it's still disappointing
• 1:04:39
  but good enough like your expectations were so
• 1:04:43
  high from all the other seasons that it just
• 1:04:45
  didn't meet the others you expect it to like
• 1:04:48
  go out on a high and it went out on a Can you
• 1:04:51
  clarify the overall story arc of Game of Thrones?
• 1:04:54
  Because from what little I understand of it,
• 1:04:56
  it just seems to be, oh, here are a bunch of
• 1:04:59
  people fighting to claim this throne. A bunch
• 1:05:03
  of people get killed along the way that you maybe
• 1:05:05
  thought wouldn't be killed because there's such
• 1:05:06
  major characters in the story. Is that the gist,
• 1:05:09
  or am I missing something? That's a lot of it.
• 1:05:11
  That's a lot of it. But on watching it again...
• 1:05:16
  and I've been through it like what I would do
• 1:05:18
  is I watch season one and then season two is
• 1:05:20
  coming out and I'd watch season one and season
• 1:05:22
  two and then season three is coming I watched
• 1:05:23
  one two three and so you know there's some that
• 1:05:25
  I'd watched over and over but what I was pointing
• 1:05:28
  out to my wife as we watched it together is here
• 1:05:32
  are so many of the unlikely pairings then too
• 1:05:35
  So they start with everybody together, King Roberts
• 1:05:38
  killed, and there's a diaspora where everyone
• 1:05:42
  is everywhere fighting wars, and then you've
• 1:05:44
  got Ahri with the hound, and you're like, huh.
• 1:05:48
  That doesn't seem right. That's odd. And then
• 1:05:50
  you've got a Jamie with the big lady. I'm forgetting
• 1:05:55
  names already. That's okay. That's good. You
• 1:05:57
  see these, these pairings, you go, that's interesting.
• 1:06:00
  That shouldn't have been there before. You've
• 1:06:02
  got Sansa who's now with, uh, the little guy.
• 1:06:10
  All the names that I had on hand, but forget.
• 1:06:13
  watching, but interesting to see how here's everyone
• 1:06:16
  in their families, a bomb goes off and there's
• 1:06:20
  just a spreading of people to the corners. And
• 1:06:23
  then when they fight the ice king at the end,
• 1:06:26
  now they're coming back together. When Game of
• 1:06:29
  Thrones was on, I mean, I think this was like
• 1:06:30
  in the 2010s on HBO. Like it was so big that
• 1:06:32
  even if you weren't watching the show, like me,
• 1:06:35
  like you just knew, like there were some mainstream
• 1:06:37
  pop culture. viral moments within Game of Thrones
• 1:06:40
  that it seemed like everybody knew about. Like,
• 1:06:43
  for instance, the Red Wedding. The Red Wedding
• 1:06:46
  is essentially like, oh, Game of Thrones is known
• 1:06:48
  for killing major characters off, so let's put
• 1:06:50
  that on steroids and kill a bunch of people all
• 1:06:53
  at the same time, kind of like a Saturday Night
• 1:06:54
  Massacre. Is that what it was? Yeah, I remember
• 1:06:56
  like... Texting a buddy like hey the red wedding
• 1:06:59
  is gonna be today when when my wife's watching
• 1:07:02
  it She's not gonna be ready for this now. Why
• 1:07:04
  are a bunch of people getting killed at a wedding
• 1:07:06
  or in a wedding episode? What was the whole thing
• 1:07:08
  about behind that the whole thing behind it was?
• 1:07:12
  So you're asking me more questions about Game
• 1:07:14
  of Thrones, and I expected in this I'm sorry.
• 1:07:16
  I'm sorry. I'm serious. I'm sorry You don't have
• 1:07:18
  to answer them if you don't want to it's because
• 1:07:20
  Robb Stark had been promised to marry Walder
• 1:07:25
  won a Walder phrase daughters, and then he fell
• 1:07:29
  in love with, I forget her name, but it's Una
• 1:07:31
  Chaplin, who is Charlie Chaplin's granddaughter,
• 1:07:35
  the actress. So he falls in love with her, they
• 1:07:37
  get married, and then he goes back to Walder
• 1:07:40
  Frey and says, oopsie, sorry, but here's my uncle
• 1:07:43
  that can marry one of your daughters. And Walder's
• 1:07:46
  like, that's fine, water under the bridge. And
• 1:07:50
  then it's not water under the bridge. He's going
• 1:07:52
  to kill everybody as vengeance. And wasn't there
• 1:07:55
  an episode where like a crew member mistakenly
• 1:07:58
  left a coffee cup in the scene and it was like
• 1:08:00
  scene. What was the whole thing behind that?
• 1:08:02
  It was just like, they were just lazy and editing
• 1:08:04
  and didn't edit it out. I would assume by now
• 1:08:08
  they've like wanted it out. And so I'm not sure
• 1:08:10
  if I can see it anymore. Yeah. Now why was there
• 1:08:13
  so much criticism with the season, the series
• 1:08:15
  finale? Like what was it just like, like people
• 1:08:18
  that survive. Didn't deserve to people that were
• 1:08:21
  killed didn't deserve to like what was the whole
• 1:08:23
  thing behind that? Do you know I think it's because
• 1:08:25
  like you expect it to like build build build
• 1:08:28
  and then near the end You're like, it's kind
• 1:08:30
  of it's marathon runner at the end like staggering
• 1:08:33
  to get across the line and and part of it was
• 1:08:36
  the final the final scene is Leaders from different
• 1:08:41
  families are there saying let's pick a king,
• 1:08:43
  you know, and they pick a king because ah, he's
• 1:08:46
  got the best story Mike that's that's That's
• 1:08:49
  some booty cheeks, as they say. That's a very
• 1:08:54
  funny way of saying that's ass. I love that booty
• 1:08:57
  cheeks. I'm going to use that. What is a delicious
• 1:09:02
  thing that's happened in your life lately? This
• 1:09:04
  just could be any, any, any personal positive
• 1:09:07
  life event that you want to share with us. I
• 1:09:09
  wrote a book. Oh my God. Yes, you did. Tell me
• 1:09:11
  about that. Because I hear about like how both
• 1:09:14
  rewarding and difficult and regretful writing
• 1:09:19
  a book can be like, what's the book about? And
• 1:09:22
  tell me about the process of writing it. The
• 1:09:25
  book is about what happens if you take a Baptist
• 1:09:27
  pastor and you stick them in the FBI for 24 years.
• 1:09:31
  And it's even though I was in the FBI and I really
• 1:09:35
  felt like that identity meant more to me. The
• 1:09:38
  person who I was as a pastor was still that same
• 1:09:41
  and that's weaving throughout. So many of those
• 1:09:44
  times talking to the runaway teens, interrogating
• 1:09:47
  terrorists, talking to white supremacists, like
• 1:09:50
  it was still me who was pastoring before, and
• 1:09:54
  now this person has just got this role as FBI
• 1:09:57
  agent. So that's the thread that runs through
• 1:09:59
  it. And I, and I tell the stories of many of
• 1:10:01
  these cases or experiences that I had along the
• 1:10:04
  way, either investigations I initiated or just
• 1:10:07
  got to be a part of. And some of them are pretty
• 1:10:09
  remarkable. And I get into more detail of some
• 1:10:12
  of the things that we talked about, but it's
• 1:10:13
  just that thread running throughout. The book,
• 1:10:16
  as you mentioned, it's called irreverent from
• 1:10:18
  saving center. Saving souls to chasing sinners.
• 1:10:23
  First time I met you. I thought it was called
• 1:10:25
  irreverent from saving souls to chasing sinners
• 1:10:27
  in the FBI. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. I've been drinking
• 1:10:31
  a lot. You finally got to me. That is the title.
• 1:10:36
  You are actually correct. Sitting down, my wife
• 1:10:39
  says to me, you should write a book. And I said,
• 1:10:41
  yeah, but I didn't, I never took notes. And I
• 1:10:44
  should have of all the things that like, oh,
• 1:10:46
  this was cool. And we did this, but I found that
• 1:10:48
  once I sat down on the computer, like stories
• 1:10:51
  just come here and they're flowing. And so I'd
• 1:10:55
  write about this guy like, yeah, and then we
• 1:10:57
  did this and we did that. And I finished that
• 1:10:59
  chapter and I go, all right, I'm gonna write
• 1:11:01
  about this case. And I sat down. one Saturday
• 1:11:06
  and worked all day and then I get to the end
• 1:11:08
  of the day and we're going to go to bed and I
• 1:11:10
  go, Hey, I've got 10 ,000 words. And my wife's
• 1:11:12
  like, how do you have 10 ,000 words? I said,
• 1:11:14
  it just comes. That's great. So there's been
• 1:11:17
  that process now of going back and sharpening
• 1:11:21
  and sharpening. And I've probably written the
• 1:11:23
  book. Like it took me about five weeks to, to
• 1:11:26
  write. This is the book and it, you know, there's
• 1:11:28
  a ship of theses here. Like it changes a bit
• 1:11:30
  along the way each time, but it's still the book.
• 1:11:33
  And I've probably rewritten it like going through
• 1:11:36
  and then sharpening, going through and taking
• 1:11:38
  out, you know, another 20 times. And that was
• 1:11:41
  at your own preference or did you like talk with
• 1:11:44
  a publisher and they said like, Oh, I recommend
• 1:11:46
  you cut this out or keep this in. Like, what
• 1:11:48
  was, what was that like? First it was me. I'm
• 1:11:50
  going through them like, Oh, there's an error.
• 1:11:52
  let's tighten this. And then I had an editor
• 1:11:55
  to act as a beta reader. So she went through
• 1:11:58
  and she goes, how about this? What does this
• 1:12:01
  mean? This isn't clear. And, you know, and then
• 1:12:04
  she, then she's talking to me and she goes, Hey,
• 1:12:07
  do you understand the term? kill your darling."
• 1:12:10
  And I said, yes. And she said, look, find things
• 1:12:13
  in here that are unnecessary. And I said, absolutely.
• 1:12:16
  And so what I did is I went through and I'd read,
• 1:12:18
  here's that story of working on Mark in that
• 1:12:22
  financial case. And one of the paragraphs is
• 1:12:25
  about how we subpoenaed his daughter to testify
• 1:12:28
  because he had sent money through her bank account.
• 1:12:31
  And it was kind of an interesting interaction
• 1:12:33
  of how we're trying to get daughter to have to
• 1:12:35
  testify and her dad and and she was fighting
• 1:12:38
  with us and you know how I just sat in her driveway
• 1:12:40
  and turned on the reds and blues until she came
• 1:12:42
  out because she was stonewalling us like but
• 1:12:44
  then I read it and I go doesn't add to it that's
• 1:12:46
  an okay story but then the idea was if you cut
• 1:12:50
  out the okay parts then the very good parts stand
• 1:12:53
  out yeah more so you know now I'm going through
• 1:12:55
  and like that's not worth it yeah that one's
• 1:12:58
  not worth it yeah you say kill your darlings
• 1:12:59
  another term is trim to fat like many times before
• 1:13:03
  as an editor of all kinds, from scripts to podcasts,
• 1:13:07
  like, oh man, I personally love this detail about,
• 1:13:10
  I don't know, the cow or the apple stem, but
• 1:13:13
  does it lead to the main point of the story,
• 1:13:17
  which is learning to put your seatbelt on? I
• 1:13:20
  don't know. I'm just making an example. Right.
• 1:13:23
  Right. And so part of it is, is it keeping in
• 1:13:25
  line? And, and I'll, for me, I would allow like
• 1:13:28
  that story is really good. And if it's really
• 1:13:30
  good, then okay. Let's, we can have an aside.
• 1:13:34
  And here's where I defeated that process. So
• 1:13:36
  I'd write a chapter about a case and then I would
• 1:13:39
  do what we. do in the FBI and in the military
• 1:13:43
  and after action review, which is going back
• 1:13:45
  and saying, this is why this worked. This is
• 1:13:48
  what I learned from this. This is how we almost
• 1:13:49
  screwed it up. Some other things. And that allowed
• 1:13:52
  me to put in another just Small story of like,
• 1:13:56
  maybe this is how it ended, how it followed up
• 1:13:58
  or here's a quick story about a case that was
• 1:14:01
  like it. And that allowed me to add things that
• 1:14:04
  I thought were still interesting, but not have,
• 1:14:06
  they were not by any means a standalone chapter.
• 1:14:10
  So lessons learned. And also here's how we applied
• 1:14:13
  it in this case too, really, really briefly.
• 1:14:15
  All right. Once again, the book is called irreverent
• 1:14:17
  from saving souls to chasing sinners in the FBI,
• 1:14:20
  and it will be available. wherever we can find
• 1:14:23
  books in October? In October. And if folks want
• 1:14:26
  to find out more and follow along, they can go
• 1:14:28
  to my website, which is preacher2breacher .com.
• 1:14:32
  You have any social media, Eric, that we can
• 1:14:34
  follow you at? I do. I used to have it, and all
• 1:14:37
  I did was troll bad guys on it. And my watch
• 1:14:40
  says, you need to have actual ones with your
• 1:14:42
  name. So years and years of following bad guys,
• 1:14:45
  now I had to get stuff in my name. So surprisingly,
• 1:14:48
  in January, underscore Eric. underscore Robinson
• 1:14:51
  was available. So that's me on Instagram, or
• 1:14:54
  you can go to LinkedIn, put in my name and FBI
• 1:14:56
  and you'll see this face. Just Instagram and
• 1:14:58
  LinkedIn. Yeah. I mean, go to Facebook too, but
• 1:15:01
  I don't need old people. And I'm, and I'm too
• 1:15:06
  old for TikTok. So, you know, I'm in between
• 1:15:08
  there. Understandable, understandable. All right.
• 1:15:10
  Well, follow Eric, please. This is a great work
• 1:15:13
  that he's putting out there and I can't wait
• 1:15:14
  to get the book when it's released. For those
• 1:15:18
  of you, as always, listening and watching to
• 1:15:20
  The Delicious Culture, you can follow us wherever
• 1:15:22
  you get your podcasts, YouTube, Apple, Spotify,
• 1:15:24
  SiriusXM, Amazon, just wherever. If you're on
• 1:15:27
  Spotify, leave a five -star rating. If you like
• 1:15:29
  what you hear and watch, that would be great.
• 1:15:32
  And if you're on Apple Podcasts, leave a written
• 1:15:34
  review. That really helps the algorithm. Email
• 1:15:36
  The Delicious Culture. gmail .com with any feedback.
• 1:15:39
  Follow us on Instagram and TikTok at the delicious
• 1:15:41
  culture. We have two different YouTube channels
• 1:15:43
  just to clarify at John Francois clips for the
• 1:15:46
  shorter clips of this podcast. And for the full
• 1:15:49
  episodes at the delicious culture, John Francois
• 1:15:53
  and John Francois spelled J O N F R A N C O I
• 1:15:57
  S. Eric, this was great. We have to do this again.
• 1:16:00
  Absolutely. I got time. Yeah. The person being
• 1:16:03
  retired. And for all you listening and watching,
• 1:16:07
  let deliciousness ring.