Latest / Roast the Post Podcast / Components Manufacturing Engineer: Frictionless Freedom Units with Dan Korus

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Components Manufacturing Engineer: Frictionless Freedom Units with Dan Korus · Roast the Post Podcast

0:09
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, we've got Dan Korus with us this week.
0:12
SPEAKER_02: And he is... he writes The Updraft, right, Dan?
0:17
SPEAKER_02: And
0:17
SPEAKER_02: you have a leadership and consulting brand called Kestryl Edge.
0:22
SPEAKER_02: That's a newsletter and a bunch of really cool stuff.
0:24
SPEAKER_02: if anybody hasn't come across Dan's work before, we're gonna link that stuff
0:28
SPEAKER_02: in the show notes for sure and pump it out there.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: I've been reading some of Dan's LinkedIn newsletter stuff and it's really good.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: So, if you're into that stuff, if you're into leadership, sign up for Dan's
0:39
SPEAKER_02: stuff.
0:39
SPEAKER_02: It's all really, really good.
0:42
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for the plug, Paul.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: why don't we get things going?
0:44
SPEAKER_02: Why don't we get things going?
0:46
SPEAKER_02: this is going to be a fun one.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: This is going to be... a thing this week's episode.
0:53
SPEAKER_02: So without further adieu, we will kick things off.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: Every week, we find a job posting that looks normal on the outside.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: And every week we're a little bit wrong.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: This week, a components manufacturing engineer in Los Angeles, California,
1:09
SPEAKER_02: United States.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: Sounds reasonable.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: Someone's gotta make the valves and the manifolds, right?
1:15
SPEAKER_02: But read closer, and this is a posting from a venture-backed defense company
1:20
SPEAKER_02: building hypersonic aircraft.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: In their words, they're reclaiming the lost art of rapid, iterative prototyping to
1:28
SPEAKER_02: deliver weapons at the scale of the modern battlefield.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: The Department of War, of course, gets the huge bigly planes that get to go Zoom
1:38
SPEAKER_02: Zoom.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: And one very, very tired engineer owns the parts that keep it in the air.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: This starry-eyed soul will be the technical authority for an entire facility
1:49
SPEAKER_02: mentoring
1:49
SPEAKER_02: technicians, defining world-class manufacturing, running the sheet metal shop, and
1:55
SPEAKER_02: somehow
1:55
SPEAKER_02: also fixing the laser welder at 9 p.m.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: while angsting to get back on the friction welder and shake out today's quota.
2:04
SPEAKER_02: Silicon Valley spent two decades promising everyone
2:07
SPEAKER_02: that software would eat the world, and building real things wasn't cool anymore.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: But it looks like building things is back, b*tches.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: Ooh Paul, spicy.
2:22
SPEAKER_02: I've had very
2:23
SPEAKER_02: spicy
2:23
SPEAKER_02: week.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: So this is cool.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: I found this
2:30
SPEAKER_02: one on LinkedIn.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: the company is... it's kind of interesting because they they heavily promote the
2:37
SPEAKER_02: weapons thing in this job ad.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: But then in their own like public kind of facing places, they don't really talk
2:43
SPEAKER_02: about that all that much.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: They more promote, hey, we're building airplanes, we're building hypersonic
2:48
SPEAKER_02: technology, we're building really fast engines.
2:51
SPEAKER_02: They really lean into that stuff.
2:54
SPEAKER_02: They work with the Department of Defense, which another interesting thing.
2:58
SPEAKER_02: In this job ad, they refer to it as the Department of War.
3:01
SPEAKER_02: Everywhere else that I could find them on the internet, Department of Defense.
3:05
SPEAKER_02: That unto itself says a thing or two.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: However, so they lean into the hypersonic technology thing quite a bit.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: And this is this is kind of cool, the way that this is all laid out.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: We'll start off with the Roasty Profile per the usual.
3:23
SPEAKER_02: So the job title is Components Manufacturing Engineer.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: The report-to title, it's unknown.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: Size of the company is 201 to 500 people.
3:34
SPEAKER_02: The industry is aviation and aerospace component manufacturing.
3:39
SPEAKER_02: What do they do?
3:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, they research, design, and test hypersonic aerospace technologies in a
3:46
SPEAKER_02: proprietary rapid prototyping environment.
3:49
SPEAKER_02: Head office is in Los Angeles, manufacturing facilities.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, there's one in Georgia, and there's one in Alabama.
3:56
SPEAKER_02: They don't talk about that too too much in the job posting, though.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: Head office location is Los Angeles, California, United States.
4:03
SPEAKER_02: The job location is in head office, it's there.
4:06
SPEAKER_02: Geographical operating area is United States.
4:10
SPEAKER_02: And the job type is full time, on-site, and I would assume permanent, though it
4:15
SPEAKER_02: doesn't explicitly say that in the job ad itself.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: I need to know again, sorry, what's the title?
4:23
SPEAKER_02: the title of the job is Components Manufacturing Engineer.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: And then you said the report-to is unknown.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: It's unknown.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay, thank you.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: I forgot I couldn't find
4:39
SPEAKER_00: my pen.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: I usually take notes.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: and I could not find
4:42
SPEAKER_03: my pen.
4:43
SPEAKER_03: a question in the chat about what hypersonics are and like hypersonic speeds.
4:47
SPEAKER_03: And so just to put it in
4:48
SPEAKER_03: terms of like passenger airplanes, passenger airplanes are usually about like...
4:54
SPEAKER_03: Mach 0.8
4:56
SPEAKER_03: which is about six hundred miles per hour or nine fifty kilometers
5:01
SPEAKER_03: per
5:01
SPEAKER_03: hour for those who aren't working in freedom units.
5:04
SPEAKER_03: or... just kidding.
5:07
SPEAKER_03: love you guys.
5:08
SPEAKER_03: or and so, Mach 5, hypersonic programs start at about like Mach 5 or
5:13
SPEAKER_03: higher, so it's about five times the speed of sound.
5:16
SPEAKER_03: and that's like three thousand eight hundred miles per hour.
5:21
SPEAKER_03: so the amount of like engineering delta that you need to go from like your passenger
5:25
SPEAKER_03: airplane, which is here, to your hypersonic program, which is like here, is vastly
5:30
SPEAKER_03: insane,
5:30
SPEAKER_03: which is why, you know, which is why this role is probably venture-backed.
5:37
SPEAKER_03: 'cause it's a lot.
5:39
SPEAKER_03: You need a lot of money for
5:39
SPEAKER_03: that sort of R&D.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: The complexity and tolerance involved in those two different types of design
5:45
SPEAKER_02: engineering are... they're remarkably different.
5:47
SPEAKER_02: It's night and day, like Dan was saying.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: Another interesting part in the... these guys don't talk about this too too much in
5:54
SPEAKER_02: the job ad.
5:55
SPEAKER_02: an interesting part of the design engineering around civilian hypersonic
6:00
SPEAKER_02: technologies is how do you minimize the sonic boom?
6:04
SPEAKER_02: So when a when a plane crosses like
6:07
SPEAKER_02: The what did you call it, Dan?
6:08
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, the the sound sound barrier or something.
6:11
SPEAKER_03: I forget what the term is.
6:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, when you cross
6:13
SPEAKER_02: the sound barrier, big f*cking boom.
6:17
SPEAKER_02: And if the plane is over top of a populated area and it goes boom, it blows out
6:22
SPEAKER_02: windows, blows out people's eardrums, like it it does some damage.
6:26
SPEAKER_02: the Concord supersonic plane in the 50s and 60s, 70s, whatever it was that that
6:31
SPEAKER_02: civilian plane ran, they actually couldn't break the sound barrier or go that
6:36
SPEAKER_02: fast
6:37
SPEAKER_02: over the continental US because of the risk of damage.
6:40
SPEAKER_02: So there are companies in this industry that are trying to figure out, okay, how do
6:44
SPEAKER_02: we break the sound barrier while still minimizing the impact from that sonic boom?
6:48
SPEAKER_02: If we can do that, then we might be able to design a plane that can work in that
6:53
SPEAKER_02: civilian context and, you know, not f*ck stuff up and be economical and whatnot.
6:58
SPEAKER_02: There are a couple of companies that are really heavily engaged in that.
7:00
SPEAKER_02: These guys don't talk about that, which I found kind of interesting.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: But unless you have something to add, Dan, we'll carry on.
7:08
SPEAKER_02: go Jennifer, did you have something?
7:10
SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to know...
7:11
SPEAKER_00: I, of course, I don't know what the f*ck you guys are
7:14
SPEAKER_00: talking
7:14
SPEAKER_00: about, but I just wanted to know if we were gonna have audience poll, if they can
7:18
SPEAKER_00: follow
7:18
SPEAKER_00: along, if all of that is is ready.
7:21
SPEAKER_02: up and ready to go.
7:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks for the reminder.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: So folks who are in the live studio audience, if you want to check out the job ad
7:29
SPEAKER_02: for yourself, go to vote.roastthepost.show.
7:32
SPEAKER_02: Jen's gonna put that in the the chat, that URL, just type it into your browser.
7:37
SPEAKER_02: And you can also there, vote, or add your rankings, I should say, for the job ad
7:44
SPEAKER_02: and the role design, just like we do at the end of the show.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: And we're going to call out the average of what the studio audience has
7:52
SPEAKER_02: submitted towards the end of the show.
7:54
SPEAKER_02: So if you hit up vote.roastthepost.show you can participate in all of that.
7:59
SPEAKER_03: I think it's a really interesting engineering challenge, you know, because we all
8:03
SPEAKER_03: know there's a big boom, you know, when go fast,
8:05
SPEAKER_03: but minimizing boom while also trying to not f*ck sh*t up, just a interesting
8:10
SPEAKER_03: optimization space to play in.
8:13
SPEAKER_03: so I'm expecting big things from this job ad.
8:15
SPEAKER_03: So we'll carry on with the job ad then.
8:17
SPEAKER_02: They start with a little bit about their company.
8:20
SPEAKER_02: So they say the company is a venture-backed defense aviation company reclaiming the
8:26
SPEAKER_02: lost
8:26
SPEAKER_02: art of rapid iterative prototyping to build the fastest aircraft in the world today.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: By prioritizing relentless hardware iteration, we deliver high-speed systems at the
8:37
SPEAKER_02: pace of the modern battlefield.
8:39
SPEAKER_02: We work with the Department of War to provide the high-speed capabilities.
8:43
SPEAKER_02: Our nation and its allies need to maintain a durable asymmetric advantage.
8:49
SPEAKER_02: So very war-focused, very aggressive language.
8:52
SPEAKER_02: The job ad itself is broken down into a few different categories, subsections, as
8:56
SPEAKER_02: you will, like many.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: There are five of them.
8:59
SPEAKER_02: One section is about the role, another is responsibilities, another is requirements,
9:06
SPEAKER_02: another is preferred skills and experience.
9:09
SPEAKER_02: Another is physical requirements.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: And the last one is benefits, followed by some trailer stuff, some legal stuff, and
9:17
SPEAKER_02: you know, things that are regulatory in nature that I'm sure California requires.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: So, about the role.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: We're seeking a components manufacturing engineer who will be responsible for
9:31
SPEAKER_02: establishing, developing, and scaling advanced manufacturing processes for critical
9:35
SPEAKER_02: hardware.
9:36
SPEAKER_02: You'll take full ownership of component fabrication from concept through production.
9:41
SPEAKER_02: Driving design for manufacture, process development, and continuous improvement.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: This includes valves, fluids components, actuators, manifolds, and electromechanical
9:52
SPEAKER_02: assemblies.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: This role requires a high technical, hands-on engineer with strong problem-solving
9:59
SPEAKER_02: skills
10:00
SPEAKER_02: and the ability to operate autonomously in a fast-paced, first principles
10:05
SPEAKER_02: environment.
10:06
SPEAKER_02: You'll work closely with design materials and production teams to bridge the gap
10:11
SPEAKER_02: between
10:12
SPEAKER_02: prototype and production, helping define what world-class manufacturing looks like
10:17
SPEAKER_02: for our
10:17
SPEAKER_02: next generation hardware.
10:19
SPEAKER_02: Let's take a brief pause there.
10:21
SPEAKER_02: Before we move on, Dan, can you give some context for some of the technical terms
10:25
SPEAKER_02: and the
10:25
SPEAKER_02: things that were in that section for the folks who are in the studio audience and
10:30
SPEAKER_02: at home?
10:30
SPEAKER_02: I think that that would be valuable because not everybody is a mechanical engineer.
10:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I'm noticing is that a lot of these
10:40
SPEAKER_03: parts are smaller subassembly components of a larger plane,
10:44
SPEAKER_03: right?
10:45
SPEAKER_03: So you're not looking in this job role at like building everything within the plane
10:49
SPEAKER_03: from start to finish, and that's to be expected, right?
10:51
SPEAKER_03: A lot of this is going to be subcontracted out for design requirements.
10:55
SPEAKER_03: but there's also fluid components, static components that are in there, and
11:01
SPEAKER_03: what I want to impress upon folks is that there's just a lot of different
11:05
SPEAKER_03: disciplines of engineering that are required for this.
11:08
SPEAKER_03: So you could have experts and domain experts in any one of these different parts.
11:12
SPEAKER_03: And already what I'm seeing with this job ad is that this is a lot of scope.
11:16
SPEAKER_03: and you might need someone with a very diverse engineering background to be able
11:20
SPEAKER_03: to bridge that.
11:22
SPEAKER_03: and so then the two things in that job ad that struck me was that, well, you have
11:26
SPEAKER_03: all
11:26
SPEAKER_03: this componentry that you're responsible for from design conception, which is we've
11:31
SPEAKER_03: got
11:32
SPEAKER_03: drawings on a paper, to
11:33
SPEAKER_03: We're putting it in a plane, which means that it's fully tested, it meets all of our
11:37
SPEAKER_03: requirements.
11:38
SPEAKER_03: it's good enough to hand off to the government and say, this is great.
11:44
SPEAKER_03: and that's a lot.
11:46
SPEAKER_03: so in in the beginning I was kind of scared, and then at the end it says you're
11:49
SPEAKER_03: bridging different production teams.
11:50
SPEAKER_03: And so I think that's kind of an open question of how much are you actually doing
11:53
SPEAKER_03: hands on?
11:54
SPEAKER_03: Is this an engineering role or is this a collaborative role?
11:59
SPEAKER_02: So the big picture takeaway, you know, as a lay person, I would kind of
12:02
SPEAKER_02: pull out
12:03
SPEAKER_02: of that is like, alright, it sounded before like maybe I'm going to be
12:07
SPEAKER_02: responsible for
12:08
SPEAKER_02: engineering design and some of the production stuff for the entire freaking plane.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: Not the case.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: You know, this is like components of the plane.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: It's very specific pieces.
12:16
SPEAKER_02: Those very specific pieces that are manufactured are going to be shipped off to
12:20
SPEAKER_02: someone else who's going to
12:21
SPEAKER_02: do the assembly of the plane or the technology that this is used in.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's not a plane, maybe it's something else.
12:27
SPEAKER_02: That's always a possibility, right?
12:29
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: Jen, any thoughts on this before we move on?
12:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was thinking about whether or not this is going to be down the road.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: I haven't seen it yet.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: Is it going to be a management position as well?
12:41
SPEAKER_00: very curious about that.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: And then one of the lines that stood out to me, and we hear this often, is that
12:47
SPEAKER_00: you're gonna be autonomous and it's a fast-paced environment.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: And so if I'm a candidate, which I would never be because I don't know what the
12:58
SPEAKER_00: hell you guys are talking about, I would wonder how that shows up.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: How is that autonomy supported in a fast-paced environment?
13:08
SPEAKER_00: what are the kind of safety nets for an employee who's expected to move
13:12
SPEAKER_00: really, really quickly and have autonomy?
13:14
SPEAKER_00: Is that actually true?
13:16
SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
13:17
SPEAKER_00: I would love to know... like, a decision making matrix and and things like that.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: but yeah, that's it.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: Those are my thoughts for now.
13:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and questions of authority too, right?
13:27
SPEAKER_02: I would really wonder at what point does something need to be escalated to
13:32
SPEAKER_02: someone else?
13:33
SPEAKER_02: What's the scope of that kind of thing?
13:35
SPEAKER_02: Cause those relationships can be... they can be very messy in engineering
13:41
SPEAKER_02: environments,
13:42
SPEAKER_02: design engineering environments in small companies, right?
13:45
SPEAKER_02: Huge companies like
13:46
SPEAKER_02: a Boeing, for instance,
13:47
SPEAKER_02: they've got all that stuff figured out because they have 80 years or whatever
13:52
SPEAKER_02: building aerospace and heavy industry stuff.
13:54
SPEAKER_02: They've got
13:54
SPEAKER_02: thousands of employees.
13:55
SPEAKER_02: They've got all that benefit of SOPs and how things work.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: Company like this probably ain't gonna have that figured out.
14:03
SPEAKER_02: They're, not to like overuse a trope, they're building the plane as they fly it, even
14:08
SPEAKER_02: though they're building the engine and not flying it in this case, but they're
14:12
SPEAKER_02: figuring it
14:13
SPEAKER_02: out as they go.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, and this is in... like you said, in the larger organizations, any kind of like
14:18
SPEAKER_00: policies
14:19
SPEAKER_00: or safety nets or whatever that they have in place happen, because there's a
14:23
SPEAKER_00: good
14:23
SPEAKER_00: reason why these things exist.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: And so when it's smaller, when it's faster paced, when they're kind of
14:30
SPEAKER_00: learning as
14:30
SPEAKER_00: they go, as you said, building the plane while flying it, that sh*t's
14:36
SPEAKER_00: important
14:36
SPEAKER_00: and it's gonna come up and it's hard to walk back some of the things
14:41
SPEAKER_00: and some of the processes that you've
14:44
SPEAKER_00: gotten used to, but safety is paramount and so... yeah.
14:51
SPEAKER_02: So we'll move on to the responsibilities section.
14:53
SPEAKER_02: And Dan, you're definitely gonna have a lot to say about this, I'm sure.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: This is very detailed.
14:58
SPEAKER_02: You know, they have quite a few bullet points in here.
15:01
SPEAKER_02: It's nowhere near as detailed as the day-to-day of this job would be, but they did
15:06
SPEAKER_02: put a lot in this section.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: So responsibilities,
15:09
SPEAKER_02: all bullet points.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: Develop and own end-to-end manufacturing processes for complex mechanical and
15:16
SPEAKER_02: precision components.
15:17
SPEAKER_02: This includes valves, fluids, components, actuators, manifolds, and
15:21
SPEAKER_02: electromechanical assemblies.
15:23
SPEAKER_02: Then there's a couple of little grammar problems in there and an extra period and
15:27
SPEAKER_02: whatnot.
15:27
SPEAKER_02: for folks at home, we read this as it's written.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: So if we stutter and stumble and say weird little things, it's because we're
15:35
SPEAKER_02: trying to not correct automatically the f*ck ups that are in the job ad.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: Next bullet point: drive design for manufacturability, DFM.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: By collaborating directly with design and development engineers from concept through
15:50
SPEAKER_02: release, define and optimize process parameters for laser welding, precision
15:55
SPEAKER_02: machining,
15:56
SPEAKER_02: assembly, and inspection of critical components, lead first article builds,
16:02
SPEAKER_02: troubleshoot
16:03
SPEAKER_02: process nonconformances, and implement permanent corrective actions, own planning,
16:09
SPEAKER_02: operations, and scheduling for the sheet metal shop.
16:12
SPEAKER_02: Ensuring on-time delivery of high-quality hardware.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: Design and procure production tooling, fixtures, and test equipment to improve
16:22
SPEAKER_02: quality, repeatability, and throughput.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: Support technicians and specialists on the production floor by troubleshooting
16:30
SPEAKER_02: issues,
16:30
SPEAKER_02: resolving nonconformances, and implementing corrective actions in a timely manner.
16:36
SPEAKER_02: Establish and maintain process documentation, including manufacturing plans, work
16:41
SPEAKER_02: instructions, and
16:42
SPEAKER_02: Control plans, collaborate cross-functionally with quality, supply chain, and test
16:47
SPEAKER_02: teams
16:48
SPEAKER_02: to ensure consistent component performance and reliability, develop data-driven
16:53
SPEAKER_02: approaches
16:54
SPEAKER_02: for process control, capability analysis, and yield improvement, serve as the
17:00
SPEAKER_02: technical
17:01
SPEAKER_02: authority for component manufacturing, mentoring technicians, and shaping the
17:06
SPEAKER_02: facility's
17:06
SPEAKER_02: future manufacturing capabilities.
17:10
SPEAKER_02: And, scene.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: There is a lot of stuff in there.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: What stood out for me in particular is that this person is going to be procuring
17:18
SPEAKER_02: tooling and procuring production equipment alongside everything else.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: That seems like a lot in one role, but Dan, what do you think?
17:29
SPEAKER_03: okay, I got a couple thoughts.
17:30
SPEAKER_03: So owning and developing processes for end to end manufacturing is really
17:36
SPEAKER_03: a very technical role.
17:38
SPEAKER_03: Right.
17:38
SPEAKER_03: So I would and depending on the process and how how hard it is, I think that you
17:43
SPEAKER_03: would normally want a mid-level engineer to own a process.
17:47
SPEAKER_03: And normally you get a process engineer to be like, hey, this is your laser welder,
17:51
SPEAKER_03: here are all the parts that are gonna come across it, and here's their requirements,
17:54
SPEAKER_03: you're gonna make sure that this process gets XYZ quality requirements and has this
18:00
SPEAKER_03: yield.
18:00
SPEAKER_03: And what's tough for me is that there's also people leadership stuff in here.
18:05
SPEAKER_03: So there's mentoring and supporting technicians.
18:08
SPEAKER_03: there's things in this... there's you can't not only stop...
18:14
SPEAKER_03: supervise a shop floor and be responsible for these technical requirements.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: I would be okay with this job ad if it was one or the other.
18:23
SPEAKER_03: And so my question for them is am I supervising and building a a team that is
18:28
SPEAKER_03: able to do this, right?
18:29
SPEAKER_03: Or am I doing it myself?
18:31
SPEAKER_03: Because if you're supervising a
18:32
SPEAKER_03: team and I can hire on engineers to do this,
18:35
SPEAKER_03: and I'm not done by the way, I got one more thing after this.
18:37
SPEAKER_03: If I can hire a team of engineers for the requirements that we're building to, then
18:42
SPEAKER_03: I think this is doable.
18:44
SPEAKER_03: but if I'm doing it and I have to do people leadership, then it's weird.
18:48
SPEAKER_03: And they're also soft on whether or not the technicians, the floor technicians, are
18:52
SPEAKER_03: your direct report.
18:53
SPEAKER_03: So it almost sounds like you're gonna be responsible for them without actually
18:57
SPEAKER_03: having like
18:58
SPEAKER_03: any stick, you know, or like any authority or actually having resources
19:01
SPEAKER_03: to be able to support 'em.
19:03
SPEAKER_03: and I think one of the bigger issues for me here, and one of the things that I
19:06
SPEAKER_03: think is
19:07
SPEAKER_03: telling about the stage of the company, is that they have a lot of corrective
19:11
SPEAKER_03: actions and
19:11
SPEAKER_03: quality measures that are inside your job scope.
19:15
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, for those who don't know about a lot of defense manufacturing, if
19:19
SPEAKER_03: quality is
19:20
SPEAKER_03: part of your requirements, and it says that okay, if you're building like a stick of
19:25
SPEAKER_03: dynamite or something.
19:27
SPEAKER_03: You need to make sure that that stick of dynamite isn't gonna go off when it's in
19:30
SPEAKER_03: transport or anything else.
19:31
SPEAKER_03: And we do that by having good requirements.
19:34
SPEAKER_03: So it's a safety thing and it's a reliability thing.
19:38
SPEAKER_03: What irks me is that if the person who's in charge of getting sh*t done is also the
19:44
SPEAKER_03: person
19:45
SPEAKER_03: who's in charge of making sure the sh*t is good, then you need a clear separation of
19:51
SPEAKER_03: church and state.
19:52
SPEAKER_03: And so, for a lot of these bigger defense companies and a lot of the big
19:56
SPEAKER_03: Primes, they're operating to a document called AS9100, which is
20:02
SPEAKER_03: aerospace quality manufacturing documents that's based off of ISO9001.
20:08
SPEAKER_03: None of this sh*t means anything, but it does mandate that the person who's looking
20:12
SPEAKER_03: at things needs to be different than the person who's making them.
20:15
SPEAKER_03: And that's
20:15
SPEAKER_03: important because if this person's responsible for end-to-end manufacturing and it
20:21
SPEAKER_03: sounds like they're standing up a lot of these processes, and they're late,
20:26
SPEAKER_03: what if they have a part that doesn't meet quality and they get to be the one that
20:30
SPEAKER_03: says, no, we don't have to do this corrective action or no, it's like it's fine.
20:35
SPEAKER_03: You don't... you always want those to have as much separation as possible.
20:40
SPEAKER_03: So that's a huge red flag for me.
20:42
SPEAKER_03: I think that if I was interviewing for this position, I would really want to know,
20:46
SPEAKER_03: okay, are you early stage and am I building these things with the intention of
20:49
SPEAKER_03: getting
20:50
SPEAKER_03: them established and I'm gonna hand them off to someone?
20:52
SPEAKER_03: Or do you actually intend for them to stay in here?
20:55
SPEAKER_03: Because if...
20:56
SPEAKER_03: that's just a compliance red flag.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: And you know, take everything that you said and transpose it onto the fact that
21:04
SPEAKER_02: this is a venture-backed startup or scale up, right?
21:07
SPEAKER_02: The pressure to return profits in those environments just... it snowballs every year.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: Every year it gets more intense.
21:14
SPEAKER_02: Five years, I'm a VC,
21:15
SPEAKER_02: I want 5X back on my investment.
21:18
SPEAKER_02: Ten years, I want 10X back on my investment.
21:20
SPEAKER_02: And the penalties for for not being compliant with specifications on a government
21:25
SPEAKER_02: contract in heavy industry, regardless of what it is...
21:28
SPEAKER_02: weapons, trains, buildings, steel, doesn't matter.
21:32
SPEAKER_02: The penalties for noncompliance, they add up.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: They add up a lot.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: So there's gonna be a heck of a tension that has to be walked inside this
21:40
SPEAKER_02: organization
21:41
SPEAKER_02: between ensuring compliance and dealing with financial penalties for being
21:45
SPEAKER_02: non-compliant
21:46
SPEAKER_02: or being late.
21:47
SPEAKER_02: Because being compliant can make you late.
21:51
SPEAKER_02: Jen, what'd you think?
21:53
SPEAKER_00: I was... you said non-compliant and I would just say Uncompliant, if you will.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, at this point in the job ad, thank you, I'm starting to think about
22:05
SPEAKER_00: qualifications and experience.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm really starting to think about what it is that they're gonna be
22:11
SPEAKER_00: looking for, because like Dan said, are you managing the people doing
22:14
SPEAKER_00: the
22:14
SPEAKER_00: thing or are you doing the thing?
22:16
SPEAKER_00: It's becoming very complicated, this role, so it will be really interesting to see
22:22
SPEAKER_00: what they require.
22:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I just want to add on to this, like, I haven't seen anything in the
22:26
SPEAKER_03: requirements
22:27
SPEAKER_03: that are actually about or in the job requirements that are about requirements
22:30
SPEAKER_03: engineering.
22:31
SPEAKER_03: You know, so they do mention a first principles approach, which is really about
22:35
SPEAKER_03: thinking about things from the ground up, and that's an innovative system process.
22:39
SPEAKER_03: A lot of
22:40
SPEAKER_03: the things that we do in defense are archaic, you know, and it's supposed
22:44
SPEAKER_03: to be
22:44
SPEAKER_03: that way, because you.. by doing things the slow and hard way, you get higher
22:49
SPEAKER_03: reliability and
22:49
SPEAKER_03: you can trust your product more.
22:51
SPEAKER_03: And then in the job in the beginning of the
22:53
SPEAKER_03: they ell, we're out to build the fastest airplane, which makes it sounds like they
22:57
SPEAKER_03: haven't built it yet.
22:58
SPEAKER_03: They don't know what they're building.
23:00
SPEAKER_03: And so, like, is this an R&D role where, you know,
23:04
SPEAKER_03: we don't care about requirements or do we care about requirements?
23:06
SPEAKER_03: Because I can... like, this is 50-50.
23:08
SPEAKER_03: It's kind of... it's straddling the fence and I would really want to know that going in
23:13
SPEAKER_03: because if you're set up for R&D, funded for R&D, go fast, build sh*t, break things,
23:17
SPEAKER_03: that's
23:18
SPEAKER_03: a different level of support and a different like level of rigour.
23:22
SPEAKER_03: You know, you need a lot of support to do things over here on the actual
23:26
SPEAKER_03: requirements DoD spec side.
23:28
SPEAKER_03: You know, that's a lot of support and resources that you're gonna need.
23:32
SPEAKER_03: So I just...
23:35
SPEAKER_03: if they want *this*, but they're over here... that's a big mismatch.
23:39
SPEAKER_02: One thing you said really stands out for me.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: Slow plus reliable equals expensive.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: And if we kind of take this in defense, and we contrast it with space
23:49
SPEAKER_02: exploration, the
23:51
SPEAKER_02: space launch system that NASA has been working on for, what, 20 years... building,
23:56
SPEAKER_02: maybe not
23:56
SPEAKER_02: building, launching, maybe not launching, maybe it's going to be private
24:00
SPEAKER_02: contractors on the next Artemis missions to Mars.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: the SLS system is really expensive.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: But it's because it's reliable and it has proven reliability that's been developed
24:12
SPEAKER_02: over like decades with process controls.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: Basically, what they're saying is at the time of launch, this thing ain't gonna
24:18
SPEAKER_02: blow up and nobody's gonna die.
24:21
SPEAKER_03: but then you contrast that with stuff from say SpaceX with Blue Blue Origin?
24:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Blue Origins, Jeff Bezos' little company there.
24:30
SPEAKER_02: You contrast it with those two, and they're saying...
24:31
SPEAKER_03: Who's Jeff Bezos?
24:34
SPEAKER_03: Who's that dude?
24:35
SPEAKER_03: Just kidding.
24:35
SPEAKER_02: Keep going.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: You contrast that with their stuff and they say, well, it's an order of
24:40
SPEAKER_02: magnitude cheaper.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: But they've already partially built on the innovations that have come out of NASA
24:45
SPEAKER_02: over 60 years, sort of thing, right?
24:47
SPEAKER_02: So what do you want?
24:48
SPEAKER_02: Do you want something that is definitely not going to blow up, definitely not going
24:52
SPEAKER_02: to kill somebody?
24:52
SPEAKER_02: Or do you want to roll the dice at five percent, eight percent, ten percent, fifteen
24:56
SPEAKER_02: percent?
24:56
SPEAKER_02: That's the question that we ask here.
24:58
SPEAKER_02: And it kind of applies to both industries that we're talking about.
25:01
SPEAKER_03: You know, and like I've got a bone to pick with
25:04
SPEAKER_03: PE-backed defense companies in general, because if you look at what Anduril's doing
25:09
SPEAKER_03: where we're privatizing some of our defense manufacturing, the money
25:12
SPEAKER_03: goes into Anduril for them to build a product suite.
25:16
SPEAKER_03: And normally how the DoD has done defense funding is like they imagine a new shiny
25:21
SPEAKER_03: toy.
25:22
SPEAKER_03: And then this company says, hey, we could probably make that shiny toy for you.
25:26
SPEAKER_03: And there maybe is some iteration in what the shiny toy does, but there's a lot of
25:31
SPEAKER_03: funding that goes into making that shiny toy, and that's why our... America's
25:34
SPEAKER_03: defense
25:34
SPEAKER_03: budget is so big, because R&D is expensive.
25:38
SPEAKER_03: Like R&D is
25:39
SPEAKER_03: wildly expensive.
25:40
SPEAKER_03: And it's easy to keep funding because you can say, well, if you just fund us for a
25:43
SPEAKER_03: couple more years, we'll definitely have it.
25:45
SPEAKER_03: You know, like we're like so close, you know, like we're almost there.
25:49
SPEAKER_03: And that's how you get programs with all this enormous float.
25:52
SPEAKER_03: But what Anduril is doing that's different is they're saying, we don't give even
25:55
SPEAKER_03: give a
25:55
SPEAKER_03: f*ck what you want, we're gonna guess what you want, we're gonna make it, we're
25:59
SPEAKER_03: gonna make
25:59
SPEAKER_03: a factory that makes it really well, and then you can buy it, whether or not you
26:03
SPEAKER_03: want it.
26:04
SPEAKER_03: You know, we have
26:04
SPEAKER_03: some idea of what you want.
26:07
SPEAKER_03: but this seems like they're trying to be Anduril but doing it poorly.
26:13
SPEAKER_03: You know, like they're doing it wrong.
26:15
SPEAKER_03: They're like, "We're gonna talk like we're
26:19
SPEAKER_03: Anduril, but we're gonna follow this other, you know, like this established kind of
26:23
SPEAKER_03: industry standard prime contractor method."
26:26
SPEAKER_03: and it's just..
26:28
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
26:28
SPEAKER_03: I would really wanna know what the business strategy is here.
26:30
SPEAKER_03: And with some of these things, you can't talk about it... right?
26:32
SPEAKER_03: So sometimes you don't even know with the job ad, but I
26:35
SPEAKER_03: think we know a little bit more.
26:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: That's a pretty good segue into the requirements section, which I think will reveal
26:43
SPEAKER_02: a few things that you're curious about.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: So they ask for bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering, manufacturing degree,
26:52
SPEAKER_02: materials science, or a related field.
26:54
SPEAKER_02: So that's a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering, manufacturing engineering,
27:00
SPEAKER_02: material science, or related.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: They also ask for.
27:03
SPEAKER_02: Three plus years of hands-on experience in precision component manufacturing in
27:08
SPEAKER_02: aerospace, defense, or high-performance hardware industries.
27:12
SPEAKER_02: That's a strong preference, they say.
27:15
SPEAKER_02: Proven ability to develop, validate, and scale new manufacturing processes from
27:20
SPEAKER_02: concept through production.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: Strong understanding of GD&T, tolerance stack-ups and material behavior under
27:30
SPEAKER_02: manufacturing processes.
27:32
SPEAKER_02: Hands-on experience in a lab production environment with a focus on process
27:38
SPEAKER_02: development, fixture design, or failure analysis.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: And we'll pause there.
27:43
SPEAKER_02: Dan, before we kind of get into some commentary, GD&T, what's that?
27:46
SPEAKER_02: They just use the acronym.
27:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so that's geometric dimensioning and tolerancing.
27:53
SPEAKER_03: basically all this is just like... if you have a print of a part that you were
27:57
SPEAKER_03: making,
27:58
SPEAKER_03: say it's this can, you know, how do you express the height of the can, the diameter
28:03
SPEAKER_03: of the
28:03
SPEAKER_03: can, with requirements that you're actually going for?
28:08
SPEAKER_03: so GD&T shows up all over engineering in a lot of different forms.
28:12
SPEAKER_03: But in this case, what I imagine it is... is okay, we have a part print.
28:16
SPEAKER_03: This is what we want to make and the GD&T, that for the part that we're
28:20
SPEAKER_03: making and how we're engineering it and how we're getting to the final part.
28:24
SPEAKER_03: you need to have a common understanding of it.
28:26
SPEAKER_03: And this is, you know, again, like this is a very technical role, that seems to
28:31
SPEAKER_03: have a lot of leadership elements in.
28:33
SPEAKER_03: And all of the requirements that they're asking for, now that we get to this
28:37
SPEAKER_03: section, it's
28:37
SPEAKER_03: like, dude, they're asking for an engineer that's maybe
28:41
SPEAKER_03: like
28:41
SPEAKER_03: this is gonna be their second job.
28:44
SPEAKER_03: so someone who's in the California area who could... is used to that.
28:50
SPEAKER_03: and like the stuff that they wanted above on what the role, doesn't
28:53
SPEAKER_03: match the experience that they're asking for.
28:57
SPEAKER_03: I don't know how you guys feel on that, but this is like, okay,
29:00
SPEAKER_03: this settles it for me.
29:01
SPEAKER_03: They want... they want an engineer.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: So this is what we see quite often.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: this is why we were talking about wanting to look at the requirements.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: three plus years, that's not a lot of years considering everything that they're
29:16
SPEAKER_00: asking for.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: A lot of... a lot of what they're asking for comes with just like time served, right?
29:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, lived experience.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: and I don't know how much of that you're gonna get in the three years.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: But I think that what Paul and I see when we're doing this show is that a lot of
29:35
SPEAKER_00: times
29:35
SPEAKER_00: they make it sound more junior because they can pay for more junior salaries
29:41
SPEAKER_00: to do that.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: It
29:43
SPEAKER_00: usually goes hand in hand.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: so I'm not surprised to see that for that reason, but I think that that's the
29:51
SPEAKER_00: wrong experience level that they're looking for, for this role.
29:56
SPEAKER_02: So though yeah, what about you, Paul?
29:58
SPEAKER_02: even saying three years of experience in that one specific thing, this
30:03
SPEAKER_02: very much does read to me, to kind of agree with you.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: This does read to me as they're looking for somebody who is early stage career.
30:11
SPEAKER_02: But the thing that strikes me the most
30:13
SPEAKER_02: about what they've written here is the amount of things that are that are going
30:20
SPEAKER_02: to exist between the responsibilities and the requirements, the bullet points,
30:25
SPEAKER_02: literally,
30:26
SPEAKER_02: The job at the amount of things that aren't talked about here that are going to be
30:30
SPEAKER_02: really important is probably fairly immense.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: You know, in this kind of environment where it's high pressure, where, you
30:37
SPEAKER_02: know,
30:37
SPEAKER_02: there's a lot of technical stuff going on, and where the the price of failure is
30:41
SPEAKER_02: pretty
30:42
SPEAKER_02: darn high, the value of someone who has 20 or 30 years in this industry doing this
30:48
SPEAKER_02: and
30:48
SPEAKER_02: being able to go to somebody who's a little bit young, say, and running a CNC
30:54
SPEAKER_02: machine.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: or running like a laser welder, or running some piece of highly complex
30:59
SPEAKER_02: fabricating equipment and say, you know what?
31:01
SPEAKER_02: If you actually run it a little bit like this and watch out for that, you're going
31:05
SPEAKER_02: to get
31:07
SPEAKER_02: a much better outcome, or it's going to be safer, or the part's going to be better.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: The value of being able to do that is immense in a high-stakes environment.
31:16
SPEAKER_02: But they're asking for somebody with not a lot of high-stakes experience.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: That's gonna blow up in their face someday.
31:25
SPEAKER_02: I don't know whether they're cognizant of that or not, but it's gonna be a thing.
31:31
SPEAKER_03: 100 percent.
31:32
SPEAKER_03: let's go to the next section.
31:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you're like...
31:36
SPEAKER_02: I've f*cking seen it before.
31:37
SPEAKER_02: I know it happens.
31:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, sh*t's
31:40
SPEAKER_03: f*cked.
31:40
SPEAKER_03: They're asking... the job requirements are, you know, definitely senior
31:44
SPEAKER_03: leadership and they're asking for an engineer.
31:46
SPEAKER_03: So they're gonna get what they're gonna get... engineer applicants and then,
31:49
SPEAKER_03: you
31:50
SPEAKER_03: know, they're not gonna get the kind of or people who are delusional
31:54
SPEAKER_03: into
31:55
SPEAKER_03: taking on that amount of scope, you know, and so I... it's like, this is a negotiation
31:59
SPEAKER_03: role
31:59
SPEAKER_03: where you help them figure out what they need and it would, you know, if I were
32:04
SPEAKER_03: going in it
32:05
SPEAKER_03: a lot of this would need to be negotiated.
32:07
SPEAKER_03: And you say, "Look, I
32:07
SPEAKER_03: think you have problems based off this job ad and we help you go do it."
32:11
SPEAKER_03: But I don't think you apply to to it as is and expect hope for the best, right?
32:15
SPEAKER_03: So I'm
32:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
32:16
SPEAKER_03: you know
32:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
32:19
SPEAKER_02: So let's move on to the next section.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: We are getting towards the end of the job ad.
32:23
SPEAKER_02: Next section
32:24
SPEAKER_02: is preferred skills and experience.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: So that has, shocker, a bunch of bullet points.
32:31
SPEAKER_02: It's like that's what we do on this show.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: Experience with advanced welding methods, laser, e-beam, resistance, or friction
32:40
stir.
32:41
SPEAKER_02: We'll talk about that in a little bit.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: Knowledge of aerospace grade materials such as aluminum, titanium, inconel, and
32:48
SPEAKER_02: stainless
32:49
SPEAKER_02: steel, experience with valves, fluids, components, actuators, manifolds, and
32:54
SPEAKER_02: electromechanical assemblies, familiarity with DFM/DFA principles, SPC, and
33:01
SPEAKER_02: lean
33:02
SPEAKER_02: manufacturing pardon me, lean manufacturing practices, experience transitioning R&D
33:08
SPEAKER_02: hardware into low rate or full rate production environments.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: Strong CAD/CAM, that's C-A-M proficiency.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: And in brackets, they've got NX, CATIA, SOLIDWORKS or Fusion 360.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: Those are software packages, I would assume, based on the context.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: And then the last bullet point is comfortable working in a startup or rapid
33:32
SPEAKER_02: development environment requiring broad ownership and adaptability.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: Dan, go, I know you've got thoughts about this.
33:40
SPEAKER_03: So when I'm hiring for technical engineers, something that kinda rustles my
33:48
SPEAKER_03: Jimmy's is when they'll say...
33:52
SPEAKER_03: I know these six software languages, you
33:55
SPEAKER_03: know,
33:55
SPEAKER_03: or I'm comfortable in these, like, seven design programs.
34:00
SPEAKER_03: And so first of all, like they've got CATIA, they've got NX, they've got SOLIDWORKS
34:04
SPEAKER_03: and you could argue that SolidWorks 360,
34:07
SPEAKER_03: you know, industry standard.
34:08
SPEAKER_03: I think like I'd rather see Clio on there as something a little bit more modern and
34:13
SPEAKER_03: open source.
34:14
SPEAKER_03: but this isn't the... and then they also mention like four to five
34:19
SPEAKER_03: different types of welding.
34:21
SPEAKER_03: And all of these, like, you could study your entire life on just laser welding or
34:26
SPEAKER_03: friction welding alone.
34:27
SPEAKER_03: And so this is a fishing net.
34:31
SPEAKER_03: This is a total fishing net.
34:33
SPEAKER_03: And the fact... it further solidifies in my mind that unless this is one
34:37
SPEAKER_03: of
34:37
SPEAKER_03: those broad job ads that they just wanted to like get fifty engineers and find like
34:42
SPEAKER_03: the
34:42
SPEAKER_03: ten that they, you know, that can figure it out, unless they're hiring
34:46
SPEAKER_03: multiple people for this role, it's like they don't know what they want.
34:48
SPEAKER_03: They don't even have an established design... you can't... if your entire
34:53
SPEAKER_03: company, if you don't know exactly what programming languages
34:56
SPEAKER_03: you're working in and also what design software you're using...
35:00
SPEAKER_03: for a plane, it requires hundreds, if not thousands, of engineers to be able
35:04
SPEAKER_03: to do this.
35:05
SPEAKER_03: If you're not all working in the same program, that's...
35:08
SPEAKER_03: that's f*cked up.
35:10
SPEAKER_03: That's impossible.
35:11
SPEAKER_03: That's not fair to everybody to be like, well, pick whatever you want.
35:14
SPEAKER_03: It's like, no, you can't do that.
35:16
SPEAKER_03: It's not like Apple and Microsoft.
35:17
SPEAKER_03: It's like Spanish and English.
35:20
SPEAKER_03: If there's
35:21
SPEAKER_03: that much difference between... you've really gotta know what you want.
35:24
SPEAKER_03: You know?
35:25
SPEAKER_03: and so like this
35:26
SPEAKER_03: That's... this is I think honestly one of the biggest red flags for me so far in
35:31
SPEAKER_03: the job
35:31
SPEAKER_03: ad that I think is a non negotiable to figure out is, first of all,
35:36
SPEAKER_03: you're
35:36
SPEAKER_03: asking for someone technical.
35:38
SPEAKER_03: Three years isn't enough to be a good master at even just laser welding,
35:42
SPEAKER_03: for example.
35:43
SPEAKER_03: so you've gotta... you know what I mean?
35:45
SPEAKER_03: This isn't well scoped.
35:48
SPEAKER_03: This isn't well scoped, and this isn't specific
35:50
SPEAKER_03: enough.
35:50
SPEAKER_02: Let's let's talk about the the different types of welding for a sec before Jen,
35:55
SPEAKER_02: you've definitely got some
35:56
SPEAKER_02: things to say too, but let's talk about the different types of welding for context
35:59
SPEAKER_02: for folks at home.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: Laser welding, I think that's pretty, you know, well understood.
36:04
SPEAKER_02: I read up a little bit on friction stir welding because I was like, stirring and
36:08
SPEAKER_02: welding?
36:08
SPEAKER_02: How the f*ck does that work?
36:09
SPEAKER_02: I don't get that.
36:10
SPEAKER_02: So I read up a little bit on It's basically vibrating two things so quickly
36:14
SPEAKER_02: that they kind of like merge together.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: a little bit.
36:17
SPEAKER_02: You have to do it in a very, very controlled environment with very, very specific
36:22
SPEAKER_02: high tolerance machinery.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: e-beam and resistance welding.
36:25
SPEAKER_02: Tell us a little bit about those, Dan, because I'm kind of intrigued.
36:30
SPEAKER_03: okay, so e-beam welding is basically laser welding, but laser is light and then
36:35
SPEAKER_03: e-beam welding is electrons.
36:36
SPEAKER_03: so you're just... you're shooting some high
36:40
SPEAKER_03: energy, small sh*t at some metal to try and get it to go.
36:43
SPEAKER_03: E-beam welding is a little bit more precise and I think more niche in its
36:47
SPEAKER_03: applications.
36:49
SPEAKER_03: laser welding, depending on the environment that you're trying to weld and
36:52
SPEAKER_03: the
36:52
SPEAKER_03: materials that you're trying to use, I think is a little bit more broad and has
36:56
SPEAKER_03: more broad
36:57
SPEAKER_03: applications and scope to it.
36:59
SPEAKER_03: And then friction welding is basically like the stir welding, except for what
37:03
SPEAKER_03: you're
37:03
SPEAKER_03: doing is you're causing two pieces to like rotate against each other to the point
37:08
SPEAKER_03: where
37:08
SPEAKER_03: they'll end up merging.
37:10
SPEAKER_03: so it's a similar concept.
37:12
SPEAKER_03: It's movement-based welding.
37:14
SPEAKER_03: but you cause friction, that causes heat.
37:17
SPEAKER_03: and then if you do it in a...
37:18
SPEAKER_03: controlled environment with a lot... with, you know, the right speeds then you can
37:22
SPEAKER_03: get a
37:23
SPEAKER_03: really clean weld where the the two materials that you're putting together are
37:27
SPEAKER_03: gonna be the same
37:28
SPEAKER_03: You know, and have a have a really
37:29
SPEAKER_02: clean weld there.
37:31
SPEAKER_02: So it's absolutely fair to say that there would be no one person who is an
37:35
SPEAKER_02: expert in all five of these at five or six years into their career.
37:39
SPEAKER_02: In fairness, they don't ask for that.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: but there's a lot going on with just that bullet point.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: Jen, I know you've got some comments.
37:48
SPEAKER_02: Take it away.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, I just wanted to say that Dan, you made a really good point that they
37:54
SPEAKER_00: clearly
37:54
SPEAKER_00: don't know what it is that they're looking for or this is intentional and they're
37:59
SPEAKER_00: trying
37:59
SPEAKER_00: to cast a wide net and see what kind of responses they get back.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: But this is a perfect example of the job ad telling you exactly what it's gonna be
38:07
SPEAKER_00: like at this company.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: Like you... the job ad
38:11
SPEAKER_00: tells you that it's gonna be disorganized, that they don't really know what
38:15
SPEAKER_00: they're doing.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: so it's all right there for you.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: And then the other thing that the job ad makes me feel is just... fear.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: If this is how they are going to to seek out people, if this is an
38:29
SPEAKER_00: indicator of
38:29
SPEAKER_00: how they're gonna run this company, then that's really scary considering what
38:35
SPEAKER_00: it is that they're doing.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: The next section that we get into in the job ad here, very short, physical
38:42
SPEAKER_02: requirements.
38:43
SPEAKER_02: what they don't say is as interesting as what they do say.
38:46
SPEAKER_02: Actually, I think it's a little more interesting than what they do say,
38:50
SPEAKER_02: in my opinion.
38:50
SPEAKER_02: First bullet point is prolonged periods of sitting at a desk and working on a
38:54
SPEAKER_02: computer.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: Frequent walking through office, manufacturing, and test facility environments.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: Extended or flexible hours may be required
39:05
SPEAKER_02: to meet critical program milestones.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: That's what they say about requirements.
39:11
SPEAKER_02: Seems to me that there should be more in there if they're going to actually talk
39:15
SPEAKER_02: about the
39:16
SPEAKER_02: physical requirements and, you know, maybe also talk about some of the safety stuff
39:20
SPEAKER_02: involved in these environments.
39:21
SPEAKER_02: That might be an appropriate place to put information like that.
39:26
SPEAKER_00: It's making me realize that they haven't... they also haven't asked for
39:30
SPEAKER_00: certification, safety certification, or anything like that.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: so are they gonna be providing that?
39:36
SPEAKER_00: Are they gonna be paying for it, that kind of thing?
39:38
SPEAKER_00: yeah, I but there's not a lot there in terms of what the physical
39:44
SPEAKER_00: requirements would actually be.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: And I would assume a job like this isn't gonna have an accommodation
39:50
SPEAKER_00: statement or anything like that.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: but it seems pretty... seems pretty lean.
39:54
SPEAKER_03: so I think that this is once again f*cked.
39:58
SPEAKER_03: And diving a little bit deeper into why, I think that, you know, so far a lot of
40:02
SPEAKER_03: this
40:03
SPEAKER_03: job scope...
40:04
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so if you're like a process engineer and they say, hey, go make
40:08
SPEAKER_03: sure the
40:08
SPEAKER_03: laser welder is laser welding, that's a... that's a hands-on activity.
40:13
SPEAKER_03: Right, you're on the shop floor hand in hand, ideally,
40:16
SPEAKER_03: with technicians making sure that things are running smoothly and that you're
40:19
SPEAKER_03: getting parts per design.
40:20
SPEAKER_03: So they do mention instructional documents in here, right?
40:23
SPEAKER_03: And part of your job as a process engineer is to understand your process and to
40:27
SPEAKER_03: understand your equipment.
40:29
SPEAKER_03: And so if I was making a process engineer to bake cookies, their job is to make a
40:33
SPEAKER_03: cookie
40:34
SPEAKER_03: recipe, to make sure that their oven is working, and then to train a technician to
40:38
SPEAKER_03: be able
40:38
SPEAKER_03: to get the exact same cookie every f*cking time.
40:43
SPEAKER_03: and then that when that cookie goes to inspection, for inspection to say,
40:48
SPEAKER_03: is our cookie good, that it passes inspection based off our cookie requirements.
40:53
SPEAKER_03: That's not a desk job.
40:54
SPEAKER_03: That's a walking around job, right?
40:56
SPEAKER_03: And so then they also mentioned design for manufacturing.
40:59
SPEAKER_03: That's a desk job.
41:01
SPEAKER_03: Right?
41:03
SPEAKER_03: That's thinking... what kind of cookie do we want?
41:05
SPEAKER_03: How will we make it manufacturable?
41:07
SPEAKER_03: Maybe some R&D.
41:08
SPEAKER_03: And then they also mention supervising and supervising on a shop floor, especially
41:12
SPEAKER_03: if
41:13
SPEAKER_03: you're mentoring and supervising the technicians, and they don't say mentoring and
41:16
SPEAKER_03: supervising engineers, that's also a shop floor job.
41:20
SPEAKER_03: You don't want to be at a desk.
41:21
SPEAKER_03: You want your desk on the shop floor ideally, right next to your technicians,
41:25
SPEAKER_03: because you need to be around them.
41:27
SPEAKER_03: and so I was really hoping that the physical requirements would give us some
41:30
SPEAKER_03: indicator
41:31
SPEAKER_03: as to whether or not they want a manager and an engineer, and I'm still confused.
41:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
41:35
SPEAKER_02: And the whole point of putting a physical requirement section in a job ad is to
41:40
SPEAKER_02: call
41:41
SPEAKER_02: out risks and make sure that applicants are aware of the risks of working in an
41:45
SPEAKER_02: environment like this.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: this doesn't talk about any of those risks.
41:49
SPEAKER_02: Like, the three things that they've put in are, no offense, to folks who have trouble
41:54
SPEAKER_02: standing or sitting for long periods of time.
41:57
SPEAKER_02: but these risk things are not really all that risky.
42:01
SPEAKER_02: They're kind of bullsh*t throw-ins.
42:04
SPEAKER_02: there's nothing in here that would be like, we actually participated in due
42:09
SPEAKER_02: diligence and help people like figure this out.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: Like if there was a lawsuit because this person got hurt the first day on the job
42:16
SPEAKER_02: and they
42:16
SPEAKER_02: were like, well, none of the training or the job ad or the contract or anything said
42:20
SPEAKER_02: anything that I would about me needing to go to a laser welder and, you know, fix
42:24
SPEAKER_02: the
42:24
SPEAKER_02: little spinning thing and geez, I shot my finger off.
42:28
SPEAKER_02: this wouldn't help their case at all.
42:30
SPEAKER_02: So why put it?
42:32
SPEAKER_02: Like put the real sh*t in here.
42:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:35
SPEAKER_00: This is a good reminder because I'd written down at the top of this,
42:41
SPEAKER_00: you said
42:41
SPEAKER_00: two hundred and one to five hundred people are... employees at this company,
42:46
SPEAKER_00: because
42:46
SPEAKER_00: this doesn't
42:47
SPEAKER_00: this reads to me like a five to ten person company at this stage.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: So I find that very interesting that they would have 201-500
42:58
SPEAKER_00: employees and yet they don't have this kind of stuff like buttoned up and
43:03
SPEAKER_00: and
43:03
SPEAKER_00: sorted.
43:06
SPEAKER_03: You know, Paul, does it mention anywhere down on the... so this is the last section?
43:10
SPEAKER_03: Is there like a benefits section after this or... okay.
43:13
SPEAKER_02: We'll go into... before we do the salary guessing because there is a salary
43:18
SPEAKER_02: range and take a break in the intermission.
43:20
SPEAKER_03: I think one thing that's interesting is normally in physical requirements, they
43:23
SPEAKER_03: don't call
43:24
SPEAKER_03: physical requirements, they just call like general requirements for the job.
43:27
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I know that this could get a little hairy, but they'll normally
43:31
SPEAKER_03: mention something like citizenship requirements.
43:33
SPEAKER_03: So if this is a defense company, that has different requirements for the kind of
43:37
SPEAKER_03: people
43:38
SPEAKER_03: that can work on this material, especially if you're a subcontractor for the DoD,
43:42
SPEAKER_03: DoW,
43:43
SPEAKER_03: whatever you want to call it, this is where I would expect to see that.
43:47
SPEAKER_03: and so the fact that once again, we're not seeing, okay, they're not
43:53
SPEAKER_03: calling out the things that a normal defense prime would go for.
43:57
SPEAKER_03: They haven't thought through their selection criteria of what candidates
44:01
SPEAKER_03: can even work on this material legally.
44:03
SPEAKER_03: And maybe they can't.
44:04
SPEAKER_03: Like I know aerospace has some grey areas, but even for low-level NASA
44:08
SPEAKER_03: missions, there's requirements there.
44:10
SPEAKER_03: So it's like, this isn't...
44:11
SPEAKER_03: I don't, this to me screams like...
44:14
SPEAKER_03: again, I don't think they want an engineer.
44:16
SPEAKER_03: I think they want a seasoned manager who's come from industry, knows all the
44:20
SPEAKER_03: things
44:21
SPEAKER_03: that they don't know and brings in that rigour and formality to be able to say, here,
44:25
SPEAKER_03: hey,
44:26
SPEAKER_03: here's how we actually go stand this up.
44:28
SPEAKER_03: You know, I think they want someone who's a builder, not an execution person.
44:32
SPEAKER_03: And I could be reading it wrong, but that's what this says to me.
44:35
SPEAKER_03: What do you guys think?
44:38
SPEAKER_02: Now, in in fairness to these folks, they do actually
44:42
SPEAKER_02: talk about the requirement to be a US person.
44:46
SPEAKER_02: but it's in a very throwaway statement in very small print at the very, very end
44:53
SPEAKER_02: of the job ad.
44:54
SPEAKER_02: Like it's not something that you would read through and
44:57
SPEAKER_02: be like... it is there.
44:58
SPEAKER_02: It's buried in a section called US export control compliance status.
45:02
SPEAKER_02: And there they reference
45:04
SPEAKER_02: some of the stuff.
45:05
SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to talk about it because I assume that it's
45:07
SPEAKER_02: copy-paste boilerplate that every company that's held to these statutory
45:12
SPEAKER_02: requirements would put in their stuff, but it is
45:14
SPEAKER_03: there.
45:16
SPEAKER_03: I would love it to be at the top and not at a footnote.
45:18
SPEAKER_03: Because that's a big disqualifier for a lot of really smart engineers who come over
45:22
SPEAKER_03: to America.
45:23
SPEAKER_03: And a lot of them end up working in startup
45:25
SPEAKER_03: environments because those are the companies that will take engineers from
45:31
SPEAKER_03: outside of the country,
45:32
SPEAKER_03: right?
45:33
SPEAKER_03: And so that's a big thing that I saw in startup is like you have a very high
45:36
SPEAKER_03: density
45:37
SPEAKER_03: of immigrant engineers who've come to America on an educational visa who will then
45:41
SPEAKER_03: go work in startup.
45:43
SPEAKER_03: and because startups when they get big will normally help out with like special
45:47
SPEAKER_03: exemption citizenship requirements and other green card things.
45:50
SPEAKER_03: Which is really great if you're a talented engineer and it's a big pathway to
45:54
SPEAKER_03: success there.
45:55
SPEAKER_03: so to have a venture backed firm that isn't like publicizing that I think is just
45:59
SPEAKER_03: I think it's a whiff, you know, personally.
46:01
SPEAKER_03: I think yeah, so.
46:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: I mean plus the the H1B visa has a $100,000 fee attached to it
46:08
SPEAKER_02: now, right?
46:08
SPEAKER_02: So that would be a thing for some folks.
46:11
SPEAKER_02: Last section before we go into salary guessing.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: Benefits, four bullet points.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: Health and wellness, 100% employer-paid health care, and pet insurance.
46:22
SPEAKER_02: Financial,
46:23
SPEAKER_02: competitive pay, stock options, 401k retirement plan, and potential year-end
46:28
bonuses.
46:29
SPEAKER_02: Time off, paid parental leave, 12 federal holidays, unlimited PTO for exempt
46:35
SPEAKER_02: employees, and generous accrued
46:37
SPEAKER_02: PTO for non-exempt employees.
46:40
SPEAKER_02: Office perks, weekly paid lunches, and fully stocked break rooms.
46:45
SPEAKER_02: Now there's...
46:47
SPEAKER_02: I'm not super familiar on the difference between exempt and
46:51
SPEAKER_02: non-exempt employees in the US.
46:53
SPEAKER_02: We use very different terminology here in Canada.
46:55
SPEAKER_02: Jen, have you intersected with this before?
46:57
SPEAKER_02: Do you know the difference?
46:58
SPEAKER_02: Or Dan, like maybe you can explain the difference?
47:00
SPEAKER_00: I think I do
47:01
SPEAKER_00: the company I work for has US based employees, but I would like to hear
47:05
SPEAKER_00: from Dan and not this Canadian, 'cause you'll explain it better than I can.
47:09
SPEAKER_03: Not exempt are hourly, exempt... they're salary.
47:12
SPEAKER_03: so there's overtime
47:13
SPEAKER_03: laws in in the US and if you're a salary employee you're exempt from those laws and
47:17
SPEAKER_03: protections.
47:17
SPEAKER_03: If you're an hourly employee, then you're not exempt from those overtime
47:20
SPEAKER_03: protections.
47:22
SPEAKER_03: well it might...
47:23
SPEAKER_03: I might have just gotten that backwards.
47:24
SPEAKER_03: But basically there's... they have hourly and salary employees and your salary
47:28
SPEAKER_03: gets unlimited PTO and your hourly employees get accrued.
47:33
SPEAKER_03: which usually is a split that you'll see there.
47:37
SPEAKER_03: but I mean, I got more to say on this.
47:38
SPEAKER_03: Go for it, Jen.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
47:41
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say with that
47:42
SPEAKER_00: usually comes different levels of benefits available to you as well.
47:48
SPEAKER_03: Did they mention a match, Paul, and did we just like off on the 401(k)?
47:52
SPEAKER_03: Nope.
47:52
SPEAKER_02: It says 401(k)
47:53
SPEAKER_02: retirement plan.
47:54
SPEAKER_02: Doesn't say anything about matching, which I found interesting.
47:57
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so I think for most defense Primes, you know, if you look at Raytheon, GE,
48:04
SPEAKER_03: Honeywell, like they'll mention their match.
48:06
SPEAKER_03: You know, and so if they're not mentioning their match, there probably is no match,
48:10
SPEAKER_03: which
48:10
SPEAKER_03: for venture backed startup I think is fine because it doesn't cost the company that
48:13
SPEAKER_03: much
48:14
SPEAKER_03: to set up an auto withdraw into the 401(k).
48:17
SPEAKER_03: But just know, like it... if you went for this job, that's just a tax advantaged
48:21
SPEAKER_03: savings plan.
48:22
SPEAKER_03: There's not going to be any company bonuses that go along with that.
48:25
SPEAKER_03: And so this might be good at early career, but if you're late career and really
48:29
SPEAKER_03: need that
48:30
SPEAKER_03: employer match and that compounding to get good on your retirement savings.
48:35
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if fully paid health, like, depends on how good the health is in
48:39
SPEAKER_03: California.
48:39
SPEAKER_03: I'm guessing it's pretty good, but I don't know if that...
48:42
SPEAKER_03: I would almost rather
48:43
SPEAKER_03: have a match on the 401(k) than fully paid health.
48:47
SPEAKER_03: and pet insurance, you know, great.
48:49
SPEAKER_03: That's awesome.
48:50
SPEAKER_03: But that shouldn't come at the expense of a 401(k) match.
48:54
SPEAKER_03: You know, like I would I would expect to see a 401(k) match.
48:58
SPEAKER_02: And I would assume that in the States, it's very easy for an individual to set
49:02
SPEAKER_02: up a 401(k) on their own through their bank or a broker or something else.
49:06
SPEAKER_02: I read that and I was like, who cares?
49:09
SPEAKER_02: I can walk into my bank and set up, we call it an RRSP, registered retirement
49:13
SPEAKER_02: savings plan here.
49:14
SPEAKER_02: We call it an RRSP.
49:15
SPEAKER_02: I can walk into a bank where I have an account and have that going in sixty-five
49:20
SPEAKER_02: seconds flat.
49:21
SPEAKER_02: Doesn't mean a damn thing for the employer to have an account on my behalf unless
49:24
SPEAKER_02: they're contributing something to it.
49:27
SPEAKER_03: For sure.
49:27
SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, this is just classic, like, we're trying to look...
49:30
SPEAKER_03: I think they don't
49:31
SPEAKER_03: know if they're a startup or a defense prime.
49:33
SPEAKER_03: You know, so like if we compare this to a defense prime, like a
49:35
SPEAKER_03: defense prime's gonna have, you know, the match and all of that.
49:40
SPEAKER_03: And I'll be curious to know what the salary range is because that might change my
49:43
SPEAKER_03: mind on this.
49:44
SPEAKER_03: but I and 'cause I... paid health is better.
49:47
SPEAKER_03: Most defense primes aren't gonna have fully paid health.
49:50
SPEAKER_03: You know, they're gonna pass on some of that premium to the employees.
49:53
SPEAKER_03: I think that's just industry standard.
49:57
SPEAKER_03: But curious to know what the salary range is.
50:00
SPEAKER_02: Last little statement that they make before we do salary guessing is equal
50:04
SPEAKER_02: opportunity.
50:05
SPEAKER_02: So they say that they are an equal opportunity employer.
50:08
SPEAKER_02: Employment decisions are based solely on merit, competence, and qualifications
50:13
SPEAKER_02: without
50:13
SPEAKER_02: regard to race, colour, religion, gender, national origin, or ethnicity, veteran
50:18
SPEAKER_02: status,
50:19
SPEAKER_02: disability status, age, sexual orientation, gender identity, marital status, mental
50:24
SPEAKER_02: or physical disability, or any other legally protected status.
50:28
SPEAKER_02: Then they go on to say we may use artificial intelligence tools to support parts of
50:33
SPEAKER_02: the
50:33
SPEAKER_02: hiring process, such as reviewing applications, analyzing resumes, or assessing
50:38
SPEAKER_02: responses.
50:39
SPEAKER_02: These tools assist our recruitment team, but do not replace human judgment.
50:43
SPEAKER_02: Final hiring decisions are ultimately made by humans.
50:46
SPEAKER_02: If you would like more information about how your data is processed, please contact
50:51
SPEAKER_02: us... somehow, because they don't actually
50:53
SPEAKER_02: give you a link or anything other than a form.
50:57
SPEAKER_02: That you have to click three times to get to on a different part of their website.
51:01
SPEAKER_03: However, I...
51:02
SPEAKER_03: if they
51:02
SPEAKER_03: don't know what they want, the AI isn't gonna ether.
51:05
SPEAKER_00: Like what's...
51:08
SPEAKER_00: kudos to them for having a statement because that's actually a lot better than
51:12
SPEAKER_00: what we typically see, Paul.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: Like at least
51:14
SPEAKER_00: it's something and they're... at least they're addressing it.
51:18
SPEAKER_00: but yeah, I don't know how they're gonna figure out what it is that they want
51:22
SPEAKER_00: with this.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
51:23
SPEAKER_02: Well, let's go into what remains to this date, after 41 episodes now,
51:30
SPEAKER_02: My favourite part of the show, the salary guessing game.
51:34
SPEAKER_02: So there is a salary range.
51:37
SPEAKER_02: It is a range.
51:38
SPEAKER_02: As a recap, this is an engineering position in Los Angeles, California, United
51:45
SPEAKER_02: States that kind of sounds like management, kind of doesn't sound like management.
51:51
SPEAKER_02: It's full-time.
51:52
SPEAKER_02: It's on-site.
51:54
SPEAKER_02: What do we think that this is worth?
51:56
SPEAKER_02: Now I want Jen to guess first.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: I knew you were gonna f*cking do that.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: I knew you were gonna do that.
52:03
SPEAKER_00: I was just waiting
52:04
SPEAKER_00: ... it brings me so much joy.
52:05
SPEAKER_00: for you.
52:07
SPEAKER_02: What do you think this is worth, Jen?
52:08
SPEAKER_02: It's in US dollars.
52:09
SPEAKER_02: Wait, wait, Paul, where is it?
52:11
SPEAKER_00: California.
52:13
SPEAKER_00: Los Angeles, Paul said Los Angeles
52:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's in Los Angeles.
52:18
SPEAKER_02: So it's presumably in an...
52:19
SPEAKER_02: urban area, which matters.
52:21
SPEAKER_00: yeah, I don't...
52:22
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
52:24
SPEAKER_00: This was a really tough one for me.
52:26
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't, I can't even imagine.
52:29
SPEAKER_00: there's... so there's
52:30
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't have gotten it right.
52:31
SPEAKER_02: I would have been nowhere near right.
52:33
SPEAKER_00: yeah, there's some hints, but I think I'm gonna keep going back to what they're
52:37
SPEAKER_00: looking for in terms of experience and what I said earlier is that like sometimes
52:40
SPEAKER_00: that's
52:41
SPEAKER_00: very deliberate so that they can offer a lower price.
52:44
SPEAKER_00: I would...
52:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna say maybe US $180,000 is what I'm gonna think for this job.
52:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna do a range.
52:53
SPEAKER_00: gonna say like US $180,000.
52:55
SPEAKER_02: Love it.
52:56
SPEAKER_02: Love the confidence.
52:57
SPEAKER_02: Dan, what did you
52:58
SPEAKER_02: think this was worth?
53:01
SPEAKER_00: Worth or are you
53:02
SPEAKER_00: asking what he thinks it's worth or what he thinks that they're paying?
53:06
SPEAKER_03: Or both?
53:07
SPEAKER_03: both.
53:07
SPEAKER_03: I got answers.
53:08
SPEAKER_03: both if you want.
53:10
SPEAKER_03: Okay, if they're cracked and they want an engineer, you know, and this is
53:16
SPEAKER_03: just
53:16
SPEAKER_03: like an accidentally broadly written job ad because they've got technical people
53:22
SPEAKER_03: trying to
53:22
SPEAKER_03: write a job ad and they can't agree.
53:25
SPEAKER_03: and they don't have you guys helping them out.
53:27
SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna say they're somewhere between US $180,000 - US $200,000.
53:30
SPEAKER_03: If it's like... if this is management and what I would take for this job,
53:38
SPEAKER_03: not a dime under US $260,000.
53:42
SPEAKER_03: Not a dime under US $260,000.
53:46
SPEAKER_03: With equity.
53:47
SPEAKER_03: With equity.
53:48
SPEAKER_03: Not a dime under with equity.
53:49
SPEAKER_03: And they didn't mention equity.
53:51
SPEAKER_03: But if this is management, you're building, right?
53:53
SPEAKER_03: You're building this whole sh*t from the ground up.
53:55
SPEAKER_03: This whole... like this whole sh*tter from the ground up needs to be
53:59
SPEAKER_03: basically created
54:00
SPEAKER_03: First of all, then you want to figure out what are... we vibe welding or are
54:03
SPEAKER_03: we laser
54:03
SPEAKER_03: welding, and what are we gonna use?
54:05
SPEAKER_03: That's a lot of building decisions to
54:07
SPEAKER_02: make, a
54:07
SPEAKER_03: lot of industry experience and so you need stake in the company.
54:10
SPEAKER_03: So I think equity's a fair ask if this is actually...
54:13
SPEAKER_03: I think equity's a very fair ask
54:16
SPEAKER_03: if this is a management building role.
54:19
SPEAKER_02: This is the person
54:20
SPEAKER_02: who gets in this role, regardless of whether or not they're technically management,
54:25
SPEAKER_02: they
54:25
SPEAKER_02: are going to make contributions that if the contributions are actually good,
54:30
SPEAKER_02: compound the
54:31
SPEAKER_02: value of the firm, like the valuation of the firm over time significantly.
54:36
SPEAKER_02: In this industry, more so than in a lot of other industries, process directly
54:43
SPEAKER_02: correlates to value... directly.
54:46
SPEAKER_02: You don't always see that in business, but in this industry, process equals value.
54:50
SPEAKER_02: It's significant.
54:52
SPEAKER_02: So you guys were sometimes close, sometimes not right, but wrong, maybe so.
54:58
SPEAKER_02: The range that they posted on the lower end, $95,000 USD per year.
55:05
SPEAKER_02: On the upper end, $170,000 USD per year.
55:10
SPEAKER_02: So you were both close on parts of it.
55:13
SPEAKER_02: Jen, you are close to the top end.
55:16
SPEAKER_02: Dan, you're close to
55:18
SPEAKER_02: kind of the bottom end.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: What do we think?
55:22
SPEAKER_00: a big ol' range,
55:23
SPEAKER_00: but
55:24
SPEAKER_03: startup,
55:25
SPEAKER_03: they don't know what they want.
55:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:30
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
55:31
SPEAKER_02: Shout out, there was also a a guess in the chat from the live studio audience
55:35
SPEAKER_02: pegging it at
55:36
SPEAKER_02: US $300,000 specifically because it's in LA, which that makes
55:40
SPEAKER_02: sense
55:40
SPEAKER_02: to me.
55:41
SPEAKER_03: look, this is... this is if they, even if they want an engineer, this is cracked.
55:45
SPEAKER_03: Because if you look at like a Raytheon engineer, and I'm just saying like that
55:50
SPEAKER_03: would be
55:50
SPEAKER_03: like somewhat Raytheon would kind of be the like the middle end between like
55:54
SPEAKER_03: private and
55:55
SPEAKER_03: fully gov funded, you know, as a prime.
55:58
SPEAKER_03: so that's what I'm basing this off of.
56:00
SPEAKER_03: Like maybe they want to be a Raytheon one day.
56:05
SPEAKER_03: Raytheon and Tucson (AZ), a lot of these, what's weird about defense is that they're
56:09
SPEAKER_03: they'll normally put them... not in a city centre.
56:12
SPEAKER_03: You know, normally they're in weird spots.
56:14
SPEAKER_03: So if you went... if Tucson,
56:18
SPEAKER_03: Kentucky, you know, like all these weird little spots.
56:21
SPEAKER_03: And so the cost of living is actually much lower.
56:24
SPEAKER_03: And that's one of the benefits and why engineers love to go to defense is because
56:28
SPEAKER_03: you can
56:28
SPEAKER_03: live in a spot that has like close to national average cost of living, but make a
56:33
SPEAKER_03: relatively high salary while doing it, and it's awesome, right?
56:36
SPEAKER_03: Like for those people if they want to do that kind of work.
56:39
SPEAKER_03: but LA is fifty percent over national average cost of living.
56:44
SPEAKER_03: So this is a normal salary range for what Jeff says, Huntsville, Alabama, or
56:49
SPEAKER_03: like, you know, Tucson, Arizona.
56:51
SPEAKER_03: This isn't normal for LA.
56:55
SPEAKER_03: is you've got four engineers who are all working there and even at US $175,000
56:59
SPEAKER_03: or whatever you said, you've got a bunk mate, probably.
57:03
SPEAKER_03: You
57:03
SPEAKER_03: know, you got... you got a bunky for this money.
57:07
SPEAKER_00: It's LA, it's in-person.
57:10
SPEAKER_00: but again, I'm going back to what they're asking for in terms of like years of
57:15
SPEAKER_00: experience, and this comes up a lot too.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: Like if companies are gonna require or even say nice to have certain types of
57:23
SPEAKER_00: certifications, that brings the the salary up.
57:27
SPEAKER_00: So with that comes a higher salary.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: And they're not listing that.
57:29
SPEAKER_00: So to me, that was indicative of the fact that it was going to be on the lower
57:34
SPEAKER_00: end, regardless of where it was located.
57:36
SPEAKER_00: So they're telling you everything right there in the job ad.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: It's fascinating.
57:42
SPEAKER_03: I mean, even Lockheed, you know, US $100,000 - US $200,000 depending on
57:46
SPEAKER_03: seniority level, you know, and that's the lower end and, that's for a
57:49
SPEAKER_03: reasonably well
57:50
SPEAKER_03: within average cost of living.
57:51
SPEAKER_03: Like this isn't... this isn't reasonable.
57:54
SPEAKER_03: This is, man this is management level expectations and founder level building scope
58:00
SPEAKER_03: for a production arm of a company with serious regulatory requirements.
58:05
SPEAKER_03: Aerospace
58:05
SPEAKER_03: has the tightest regulatory requirements of any industry in the country, even
58:09
SPEAKER_03: tighter than pharmaceutical.
58:11
SPEAKER_03: You don't get room
58:11
SPEAKER_03: for operating error and like production error.
58:14
SPEAKER_03: Like this is... this is it.
58:16
SPEAKER_03: Like this is the peak of requirements and they don't know their
58:20
SPEAKER_03: requirements.
58:21
SPEAKER_03: And they're asking for below market average salary expectations with an engineer
58:27
SPEAKER_03: three years experience job.
58:29
SPEAKER_03: Like that's... it's wild net.
58:32
SPEAKER_03: You know, I don't know.
58:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
58:33
SPEAKER_03: Anyways, this is like blowing my mind.
58:35
SPEAKER_03: I'm starting to get frustrated here.
58:36
SPEAKER_03: I need to calm down.
58:37
SPEAKER_03: I need to cool it, dude.
58:39
SPEAKER_02: I gotta cool it.
58:40
SPEAKER_02: Add on to that, right,
58:40
SPEAKER_02: like if you're if you're living in LA and you're commuting into this office because
58:44
SPEAKER_02: it's definitely in person, this ain't no remote job.
58:47
SPEAKER_02: You gotta be
58:48
SPEAKER_02: in person to walk the floor and look at the machines.
58:51
SPEAKER_02: if you're in LA, you gotta factor in the value of the two hours of time you're
58:56
SPEAKER_02: gonna sit on the 405 every damn day.
58:59
SPEAKER_02: Traffic in LA is the worst.
59:03
SPEAKER_02: And I'm from f*cking Toronto,
59:06
SPEAKER_02: where it's bad.
59:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm also interested a little
59:10
SPEAKER_00: bit in in terms of like what the... we we talked about up to five hundred
59:16
SPEAKER_00: people if
59:17
SPEAKER_00: they have like a human resources team if they're looking at like are they it
59:21
SPEAKER_00: doesn't seem
59:22
SPEAKER_00: in terms of how it's written,
59:24
SPEAKER_00: job design benchmarking, everything.
59:26
SPEAKER_00: It's just which is gonna be problematic.
59:30
SPEAKER_00: because I also wonder who's in charge of health and safety and all that
59:34
SPEAKER_00: regulatory type stuff.
59:35
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
59:36
SPEAKER_00: What else?
59:37
SPEAKER_03: I'm not applying
59:39
SPEAKER_03: I don't have one.
59:40
SPEAKER_03: I'll tell you right now.
59:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:44
SPEAKER_02: Well, we're going to take a short intermission and Jen and Dan are gonna read
59:50
SPEAKER_02: through
59:51
SPEAKER_02: the job ad, take some notes, and we'll be back shortly with our final scoring and
59:56
SPEAKER_02: wrap up.
59:57
SPEAKER_02: If you have the opportunity, folks in the audience, to pop into the job ad and
1:00:03
SPEAKER_02: add your own scores, please do: vote.roastthepost.show.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_02: Those will be included when we go into wrap up in probably seven or eight minutes
1:00:13
SPEAKER_02: I would say.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_02: Okay, we are back.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_02: Jen and Dan have both had an opportunity to read through the job ad, and they've
1:00:32
SPEAKER_02: got some thoughts, just like I did.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_02: Now, for folks who are at home, we rate every job ad on two dimensions.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_02: The first dimension is the job ad itself.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_02: And the question I like to ask with this is how likely is this job ad going to be at
1:00:50
SPEAKER_02: bringing in a good fit candidate for this role?
1:00:54
SPEAKER_02: How good a job does the ad do of that?
1:00:56
SPEAKER_02: The second dimension is the role design.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_02: And that one is just as crucial, but a little bit tougher to put our finger on
1:01:03
SPEAKER_02: sometimes.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_02: When we think about the role design, the question I always ask myself is how likely
1:01:09
SPEAKER_02: is this role design going to be in supporting the successful candidate over time?
1:01:15
SPEAKER_02: Is it going to be sustainable?
1:01:16
SPEAKER_02: Are they going to stay in this organization?
1:01:19
SPEAKER_02: Or is this organization going to have to start over from scratch three weeks later?
1:01:24
SPEAKER_02: So two dimensions, two scores.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_02: Dan, why don't we start with you?
1:01:28
SPEAKER_02: What did you think about the job ad?
1:01:31
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_03: like a three.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_03: Tell me more.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_03: I think, like, okay, so I also saw something I made a mistake earlier.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_03: I thought this person was in charge of quality.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_03: They're just supposed to like be cross-functional with quality.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_03: so this is a little bit better than I thought, which is why I'm not rating it a
1:01:53
SPEAKER_03: negative three.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_03: like they they get some they get some things right.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_03: And so I gotta I gotta retract some of my earlier statements.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_03: All of it still holds in terms of what you want in the industry, and I'm still
1:02:03
SPEAKER_03: skeptical that they know what they want.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_03: But in terms of role design, or I think...
1:02:10
SPEAKER_03: this is like a three, dude.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_03: They're gonna get someone who is technical or technical minded, and they're
1:02:15
SPEAKER_03: gonna get someone who can probably talk about some of the keywords in this job ad.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_03: but there's a lot, you know, like there's four different design softwares on
1:02:24
SPEAKER_03: there and
1:02:25
SPEAKER_03: a bunch of different experience, and so I just... they're gonna get someone niche, but
1:02:30
SPEAKER_03: is
1:02:30
SPEAKER_03: that niche gonna be the right one for the company?
1:02:33
SPEAKER_03: And I'm not sure if that's designed yet.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_03: Jen, what did you think about the job ad?
1:02:41
SPEAKER_00: the job ad itself, I would say... because they have a format and they
1:02:47
SPEAKER_00: have headings and things like that.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_00: Like they like I always say this, but they put like pen to paper, I guess.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_00: even then I'd say like a three because they don't know what they're looking for.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_00: And I can guarantee you that when they start screening applicants and they're in the
1:03:03
SPEAKER_00: interview process, it's either gonna take forever because nobody's gonna wanna
1:03:08
SPEAKER_00: make a
1:03:08
SPEAKER_00: call on who to hire.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_00: because there is so much risk involved in hiring roles like this or because
1:03:14
SPEAKER_00: there's no consensus.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_00: I would love to know what their hiring rubric looks like.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_00: What are... how are they deciding who they're gonna hire for this role when they're
1:03:24
SPEAKER_00: gonna get a lot of just different
1:03:26
SPEAKER_00: random people.
1:03:28
SPEAKER_00: so like a three, I can't remember what I said.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_00: Three out of ten for a job ad.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_00: They list benefits, they list a salary, so I gotta give them some points on
1:03:37
SPEAKER_00: that.
1:03:38
SPEAKER_00: and then the job design is like a zero.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_00: This isn't going to
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: work because, and it's as simple as they don't know what they're looking for.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_00: And so there is no job design.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_00: There is no role design here.
1:03:53
SPEAKER_00: so it's pointless to even try to rate it in my opinion, because they
1:03:58
SPEAKER_00: have to
1:03:59
SPEAKER_00: get that part... they have to figure out, they have to do a role
1:04:03
SPEAKER_00: analysis,
1:04:04
SPEAKER_00: they have to do everything
1:04:06
SPEAKER_00: that needs to be done has not happened yet.
1:04:08
SPEAKER_00: So in terms of like job design, there is no job design.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_00: that's that's a some companies will figure that part out later and it's disastrous.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_03: I would really love to see a redesign on the role, you know, and
1:04:28
SPEAKER_03: if we were gonna apply to this,
1:04:30
SPEAKER_03: I think I would really wanna just see like, okay, can you double the
1:04:37
SPEAKER_03: compensation range?
1:04:40
SPEAKER_03: And then make it a leadership role.
1:04:41
SPEAKER_03: Because I think that's what they want.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_03: You want someone experienced, you need to double it.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_03: Even then, you need to be pushing US $300,000 to match a lot of
1:04:50
SPEAKER_03: industry standard people, especially in LA.
1:04:54
SPEAKER_03: you know, so I... yeah, I would want this to be a leadership role and I would want
1:04:58
SPEAKER_03: the person to get equity and I'd want the compensation doubled.
1:05:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_00: For me
1:05:03
SPEAKER_00: too, based
1:05:03
SPEAKER_00: on sorry, on on what you said, Dan, is well now I just completely lost it.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_00: But a lot of times Paul and I have talked about like it would be cool if we could
1:05:15
SPEAKER_00: redesign this job ad, and
1:05:18
SPEAKER_00: just
1:05:18
SPEAKER_00: rewrite it, rewrite it.
1:05:19
SPEAKER_00: But like you you said something that triggered something in my mind, which is
1:05:25
SPEAKER_00: that... who is going to want to take this job?
1:05:28
SPEAKER_00: You're not selling me on anything in this job ad.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_00: You're not convincing me that this is the place I want to work and that it's worth
1:05:37
SPEAKER_00: me making such a small salary, right?
1:05:39
SPEAKER_00: Like they're doing a piss poor job on that.
1:05:41
SPEAKER_00: So they need to think about like, yeah, what is it?
1:05:44
SPEAKER_00: What are their selling points here?
1:05:45
SPEAKER_00: It's one of those job
1:05:46
SPEAKER_00: ads again that we talk about often, it's extractive.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_00: What's in it for me?
1:05:51
SPEAKER_00: Besides, well, it depends on my role, but I might have unlimited PTO.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_00: But maybe not.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_00: Like who f*cking knows?
1:05:58
SPEAKER_00: So there's yeah, there's nothing
1:05:59
SPEAKER_00: there in terms of like enticing someone to want to work there and be willing to
1:06:05
SPEAKER_00: take a low salary for this scope of work.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_03: so it's yeah.
1:06:10
SPEAKER_03: there's a lot of dichotomies in here, right?
1:06:13
SPEAKER_03: Unlimited PTO plus may require long working hours, you know, and then
1:06:17
SPEAKER_03: supervising
1:06:18
SPEAKER_03: shop floor, plus being at your desk a lot.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_03: And so
1:06:22
SPEAKER_03: to me, you know, I think if I was gonna, I think this is a good fit for a
1:06:28
SPEAKER_03: lot of
1:06:28
SPEAKER_03: people who have industry experience and are maybe mid to mid high career, who are
1:06:35
SPEAKER_03: already
1:06:35
SPEAKER_03: in established defense, know how it works, has DoD, DoW contacts, and wants the
1:06:42
SPEAKER_03: fun of going to a startup.
1:06:44
SPEAKER_03: And if the founders have a really great idea and a great vision and like good
1:06:48
SPEAKER_03: design and there's a good team, like you can't...
1:06:52
SPEAKER_03: Maybe that's worth working for, you know, and it's just a bad job ad.
1:06:55
SPEAKER_03: And I would be curious to see, okay,
1:06:57
SPEAKER_03: if it's negotiable and you double the salary and I help you come in and fix all
1:07:02
SPEAKER_03: these things, maybe that'd be awesome.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
1:07:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and when we talk about how challenging the job market is right now,
1:07:11
SPEAKER_00: there's nothing to lose in an unconventional way of approaching your
1:07:16
SPEAKER_00: application.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_00: Like you
1:07:17
SPEAKER_00: you had mentioned it earlier.
1:07:19
SPEAKER_00: you know, come in and be like, here, here's what I think and here's my
1:07:23
SPEAKER_00: application.
1:07:23
SPEAKER_00: It's basically telling you everything that's like going on that's wrong here.
1:07:28
SPEAKER_00: Go for it.
1:07:28
SPEAKER_00: Why not?
1:07:29
SPEAKER_00: Because it certainly isn't working to just submit your resume on a like
1:07:32
SPEAKER_00: Apply link on LinkedIn.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_00: So try something unconventional, maybe.
1:07:37
SPEAKER_00: But Paul, what about you?
1:07:39
SPEAKER_00: What are your ratings?
1:07:40
SPEAKER_02: You guys really you covered off pretty much everything that I was going
1:07:43
SPEAKER_02: to say.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_02: the job at itself, I would score...
1:07:46
SPEAKER_02: I'd score a two.
1:07:48
SPEAKER_02: I didn't dig it.
1:07:49
SPEAKER_02: So this is based in California.
1:07:51
SPEAKER_02: They're looking for someone in California.
1:07:52
SPEAKER_02: They're looking for someone in LA.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_02: and they waged into pretty much right away the whole Department of War slash
1:07:59
SPEAKER_02: Department of Defense thing.
1:08:02
SPEAKER_02: that's... could be filtering.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_02: Maybe they're using that as filtering.
1:08:06
SPEAKER_02: But I'm not a big fan of politicizing job ads
1:08:12
SPEAKER_02: and culture and whatnot.
1:08:14
SPEAKER_02: They're sending a signal which I didn't dig.
1:08:18
SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's unintentional,
1:08:20
SPEAKER_02: maybe it's not.
1:08:20
SPEAKER_02: Well, they so they they referred to Department of War contracts in here.
1:08:25
SPEAKER_02: And
1:08:26
SPEAKER_02: you know, even amongst the the US defense establishment two years on, that's
1:08:30
SPEAKER_02: still a bit of a controversy, right?
1:08:31
SPEAKER_02: Like is the purpose of the department for war or for national defense?
1:08:36
SPEAKER_02: the White House
1:08:37
SPEAKER_02: and some people say, war, we're gonna go in and f*ck some stuff up because, you
1:08:42
SPEAKER_02: know, reasons.
1:08:43
SPEAKER_02: other people say this is about national defense, like stop being dumb, stop being
1:08:48
SPEAKER_02: infantile, stop being twats.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_02: so they waged into that debate in the job ad.
1:08:52
SPEAKER_02: Didn't dig that, not because of my own personal feelings, but I think that it's a
1:08:56
SPEAKER_02: bad idea to do that when you're trying to build a talent pool.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna limit yourself by politicizing the workforce right away off the bat.
1:09:04
SPEAKER_02: So that was a big part of it for me.
1:09:06
SPEAKER_02: there are also things in the job ad that were a big swing and miss, like no
1:09:10
SPEAKER_02: matching on the 401(k)...
1:09:13
SPEAKER_02: that's meaningless.
1:09:14
SPEAKER_02: That means absolutely nothing.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_02: the pet insurance thing, that was very nice.
1:09:18
SPEAKER_02: That's a good fringe benefit.
1:09:20
SPEAKER_02: That's good filtering and signalling, but they don't actually build on that in any
1:09:24
SPEAKER_02: any way that's meaningful.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_02: They just kind of throw it in there like, hey, pet insurance, done.
1:09:28
SPEAKER_02: You need to do better than that in your employer branding, in my opinion.
1:09:32
SPEAKER_03: I'd only push back on that... just a really quick and I don't
1:09:35
SPEAKER_03: really have anything more
1:09:36
SPEAKER_03: to say about this job ad, I think I've already said it.
1:09:38
SPEAKER_03: But like the one thing that I would I would probably say is that like sometimes
1:09:42
SPEAKER_03: there are contractual requirements around like funding and appropriation of funding.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_03: So if you have what we would call a DoD contract and you don't call it a DoW
1:09:52
SPEAKER_03: contract,
1:09:53
SPEAKER_03: you might... you can, there are like
1:09:56
SPEAKER_03: the guys and girls and you know, you...
1:10:01
SPEAKER_03: everybody who is working on this job ad, and working at this company might just
1:10:08
SPEAKER_03: be total plane nerds.
1:10:10
SPEAKER_03: And they just you know, and this
1:10:11
SPEAKER_03: is where you get plane nerd money.
1:10:14
SPEAKER_03: You know, like that's a great place to go for plane like hypersonic like dope as
1:10:17
SPEAKER_03: f*ck.
1:10:17
SPEAKER_03: Like there's a lot of technology transfer that happens from NASA and DoD that
1:10:22
SPEAKER_03: impacts, you know, civilian lives.
1:10:24
SPEAKER_03: And so they may not be
1:10:25
SPEAKER_03: passionate about war, they're just contractually obligated to it.
1:10:27
SPEAKER_03: So let's give the benefit of the doubt on that, but totally
1:10:30
SPEAKER_03: agree, you know, like there's a lot there's a lot that goes into that and you know,
1:10:34
SPEAKER_02: yeah.
1:10:35
SPEAKER_02: that is a
1:10:35
SPEAKER_02: really, really good point to bring up.
1:10:38
SPEAKER_02: and with this administration, more so than
1:10:41
SPEAKER_02: any other administration that I've seen in my lifetime, I could believe that they
1:10:46
SPEAKER_02: would
1:10:46
SPEAKER_02: withhold funding or give dispreferential treatment to a bidder for an opportunity
1:10:52
SPEAKER_02: because
1:10:52
SPEAKER_02: of something like this.
1:10:53
SPEAKER_02: So that that's a fair point to bring
1:10:55
SPEAKER_03: up.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_03: 100 percent.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_03: And the people who write grants and are non profits that help with
1:11:02
SPEAKER_03: women's centres' funding and sexual health and parent planning funding and
1:11:07
SPEAKER_03: helping
1:11:09
SPEAKER_03: women who are experiencing domestic violence have to change how they write grants
1:11:14
SPEAKER_03: to make
1:11:14
SPEAKER_03: up for the millions of dollars of lost funding and they're having to redesign and
1:11:19
SPEAKER_03: tiptoe their websites, you know, just because of how this funding happens.
1:11:24
SPEAKER_03: So it's a real thing.
1:11:26
SPEAKER_03: and
1:11:27
SPEAKER_03: we're it... this is like the most privileged end of it, right?
1:11:31
SPEAKER_03: but
1:11:32
SPEAKER_03: You know, that that's some of the the tom f*ckery I said it.
1:11:37
SPEAKER_03: that happens in in these sorts of areas because we don't, you know, we don't get to
1:11:43
SPEAKER_03: in some in some cases we don't get to have that luxury because
1:11:48
SPEAKER_03: you want, you need to have that funding.
1:11:51
SPEAKER_03: but at the same time if you say certain words, like if you put DEI on your website,
1:11:54
SPEAKER_03: you're
1:11:55
SPEAKER_03: not getting funded by the federal government, even if you're assisting women who,
1:11:58
SPEAKER_03: you
1:11:58
SPEAKER_03: know, are are being domestically violenced against.
1:12:03
SPEAKER_03: Experiencing domestic violence.
1:12:05
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
1:12:06
SPEAKER_02: for us in other countries who, you know, are kind of looking at this from
1:12:10
SPEAKER_02: the outside and saying, what the f*ck's going on?
1:12:12
SPEAKER_02: We kind of have some
1:12:13
SPEAKER_02: understanding of the issues, but we don't experience it firsthand, you know.
1:12:18
SPEAKER_02: So we we kind of have that working against us when it comes to truly, truly
1:12:22
SPEAKER_02: understanding the impact of a lot of this stuff in the US.
1:12:25
SPEAKER_02: So I appreciate that call out.
1:12:29
SPEAKER_02: What would I do for the role design for this?
1:12:33
SPEAKER_02: same sort of thing.
1:12:33
SPEAKER_02: Like this is... as you got what you guys said, I don't have a whole lot to add, so I
1:12:37
SPEAKER_02: won't belabour the point.
1:12:39
SPEAKER_02: You know, I would give this a one.
1:12:40
SPEAKER_02: the role design is very fluid.
1:12:46
SPEAKER_02: They do not know what they want, as you both said before.
1:12:49
SPEAKER_02: I would say that they're also very confused about reporting lines and
1:12:54
SPEAKER_02: responsibilities.
1:12:55
SPEAKER_02: So they paint the picture of someone who they want to come in and be a bit of a hero
1:12:58
SPEAKER_02: engineer.
1:12:59
SPEAKER_02: They want a person who's a hero engineer to come in to be able to fix problems,
1:13:03
SPEAKER_02: figure stuff out, connect the dots between A and B, and just make everything work.
1:13:08
SPEAKER_02: But they're doing that on the cheap for LA.
1:13:11
SPEAKER_02: That's not going to work out.
1:13:12
SPEAKER_02: And when you don't have established responsibilities, boundaries, guardrails in a
1:13:17
SPEAKER_02: role
1:13:18
SPEAKER_02: design within a lot of organizations, and I would say especially so for an
1:13:22
SPEAKER_02: organization
1:13:23
SPEAKER_02: like this, in an industry like this, when you don't have those guardrails in place,
1:13:27
SPEAKER_02: you are
1:13:27
SPEAKER_02: drastically reducing the probability of the person in the role being successful.
1:13:32
SPEAKER_02: So you're making poor use of your capital five years forward, 10 years forward.
1:13:38
SPEAKER_02: If venture capitalists understood that, if the money people understood that, they
1:13:42
SPEAKER_02: would
1:13:43
SPEAKER_02: get way more involved in this stuff and be very, very, very particular about this
1:13:47
SPEAKER_02: stuff.
1:13:48
SPEAKER_02: But they don't.
1:13:49
SPEAKER_02: So they're not.
1:13:50
SPEAKER_02: So everybody else has to figure it the f*ck out.
1:13:52
SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't work so well.
1:13:55
SPEAKER_03: You know, and
1:13:56
SPEAKER_03: this will be the last thing I say on this.
1:13:58
SPEAKER_03: If I were to guess, this company just needs good process engineers, you
1:14:03
SPEAKER_03: know, and you can expect
1:14:04
SPEAKER_03: like a third of this job ad for a good process engineer, someone who's good at
1:14:09
SPEAKER_03: actuators
1:14:10
SPEAKER_03: or fluid mechanics or you know, different turbine designs and exhaust manifolds,
1:14:15
SPEAKER_03: stuff
1:14:16
SPEAKER_03: like that.
1:14:16
SPEAKER_03: And so like sometimes what they'll do is they'll get lazy and they'll just put out
1:14:20
SPEAKER_03: one job
1:14:20
SPEAKER_03: ad and they'll try and do a catch-all and they'll put all the buzzwords in there,
1:14:23
SPEAKER_03: hoping
1:14:24
SPEAKER_03: that they'll get a good
1:14:24
SPEAKER_03: some good process engineers for that.
1:14:26
SPEAKER_03: And so I... my guess and company, if we... if anyone at this company
1:14:31
SPEAKER_03: is on
1:14:32
SPEAKER_03: the hiring committee or ever watches this and they were like, Dan nailed it, please tell
1:14:36
SPEAKER_03: me.
1:14:36
SPEAKER_03: if I didn't, no
1:14:37
SPEAKER_03: need to reach out.
1:14:38
SPEAKER_03: but if you're watching this and I nailed it, let me know.
1:14:41
SPEAKER_03: Like, you need like 10 process engineers about this, and you're not picky, you're
1:14:46
SPEAKER_03: willing to train, you've already got your management layer figured out.
1:14:49
SPEAKER_03: You just need some highly collaborative process engineers who are ready to hit the
1:14:52
SPEAKER_03: ground running.
1:14:53
SPEAKER_03: and you would take a couple different things and maybe and do some.
1:14:56
SPEAKER_03: internal training.
1:14:57
SPEAKER_03: And so that's why this role is a little bit broader.
1:15:00
SPEAKER_03: And if that's the case, just message me, Dan Korus.
1:15:03
SPEAKER_03: Dan Korus on LinkedIn.
1:15:03
SPEAKER_03: That's K-O-R-U-S.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_03: you can Kestryl Edge, K-E-S-T-R-Y-L-E-D-G-E
1:15:09
SPEAKER_03: dot com.
1:15:10
SPEAKER_03: reach out to me 'cause I see you.
1:15:13
SPEAKER_03: Dan will fix your problems.
1:15:16
SPEAKER_02: The average score,
1:15:18
SPEAKER_02: the average score for the live studio audience, job ad rating 4.25, and the role
1:15:26
SPEAKER_02: design rating 2.5.
1:15:28
SPEAKER_02: So the audience, they had some feelings too.
1:15:32
SPEAKER_02: Folks, thank you very much for joining us.
1:15:34
SPEAKER_02: Jen and I, I mean, we were super, super pleased that you could join us today, Dan.
1:15:38
SPEAKER_02: Like thanks for the really great roast.
1:15:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, we really appreciate you being here.
1:15:43
SPEAKER_02: All the folks who are in the live chat who showed up for us really appreciate you
1:15:47
SPEAKER_02: guys.
1:15:48
SPEAKER_02: Without further adieu though, I think that we can consider this post roasted.
1:15:54
SPEAKER_01: Booya!