Latest / The CITIUS MAG Podcast | A Running + Track and Field Show / Andreas Almgren On His Upcoming Marathon Debut In New York, A Dominant European 10,000m Championship And Seven Years Of Double Threshold

Transcript

Andreas Almgren On His Upcoming Marathon Debut In New York, A Dominant European 10,000m Championship And Seven Years Of Double Threshold · The CITIUS MAG Podcast | A Running + Track and Field Show

0:00
What's up everyone? You are listening to the CITIUS
0:02
MAG podcast. I'm your host Chris Chavez, and
0:05
every week we go beyond the results to bring you
0:07
conversations with the biggest names on the track, the roads,
0:10
and behind the scenes. From world class athletes and
0:12
coaches to innovators shaping the sport.
0:15
If it's happening on the track, we're covering it with real
0:18
insights that sharpen minds, deep dives into the moments that
0:21
define careers, and the kind of access to the pros you won't get
0:25
anywhere. Else.
0:26
So let's get into it, because we love track and field.
0:32
My guest for today's episode is Andreas Almgren, the newly
0:35
minted European 10,000 meter champion and soon to be a first
0:39
time marathoner. On November 1st, he will run the
0:43
New York City Marathon for his debut.
0:45
At the distance. Let me put that recent European
0:48
Championship performance into context since it was very, very
0:51
impressive to watch. He broke a 48 year old
0:55
championship record. The winning margin was insane.
0:58
He ran the last 8800 meters at 237 pace front running into a
1:04
headwind. He lapped all but six men in the
1:07
field and some of those only unlapped themselves as he was
1:10
slowing down towards the end. It was the first time that a
1:12
Swedish man had won a running event at the European
1:15
Championship since in 1962. He's been great on the track,
1:19
he's been great on the roads. He's set 4 European records
1:23
within the last 12 months, the 10K road record in Valencia in
1:27
January when he ran 2645 and put him at #6 on the world all time
1:32
list. He ran 5841 for 1/2 marathon
1:37
last October in Valencia, the first European to go under 59
1:41
minutes. He claimed a World Championship
1:43
bronze medal in Tokyo last September, where he finished
1:46
just .25 seconds off of a gold medal.
1:49
He broke the 5000 meter European record in 1244 last outdoor
1:55
season. He's one of the best runners in
1:57
the world right now. So a little bit of background
2:00
because now he's 31 years old. He grew up in Sweden playing
2:04
soccer for one of the biggest clubs out there and injuries
2:09
ended his soccer career path. So then he went on to win World
2:14
U20 bronze in the 800 at the 2014 U20 World Championships
2:20
that took place in Eugene and he.
2:21
Looked like he was going to be. Sweden's next great medal
2:24
distance runner. Unfortunately, he did have to
2:26
spend 4 years with stress fractures.
2:29
A broken navicular. More stress fractures, and he
2:32
could not stay healthy from 2016 all the way through 2019.
2:37
And so in 2019, he's sitting on a stationary bike rehabbing that
2:41
sacral stress fracture. And he watched his friend Kalle
2:44
Berglund make a world championship 1500 meter final,
2:48
mostly using the double threshold training method.
2:51
So Andreas decides that he's going to copy it.
2:54
And ever since then, he's been going up in distance.
2:57
And every time he steps up, he's running faster.
3:01
So he's been working towards this marathon debut for quite
3:03
some time. In this conversation, we dive
3:06
into why he picked New York over, say, Valencia, how his
3:09
double threshold system has evolved over the last seven
3:12
years, what it took to stay healthy this entire time, the
3:16
training that he's doing for the marathon right now, and so much
3:19
more. So without further ado, here is
3:21
Andreas Almgren. All right, Andreas, 2 days ago
3:35
you announced November 1st you'll be doing your first
3:39
marathon. You've also got the World Road
3:43
running Championships coming up in Copenhagen.
3:46
You're also coming off of the most dominant 10,000 meter
3:49
performance I think we've ever seen at the European
3:52
Championships. So how's it going?
3:55
How's everything? How's, how's everything?
3:57
I guess back in Sweden a little bit of downtime before this next
4:00
training block or, or where are we at right now?
4:03
It's been intense this last week.
4:06
I had two pretty easy days after the tanky in in European
4:10
Championships. But now I'm I'm back in a big
4:13
training block. I mean, it's only 11 weeks
4:16
between the Europeans and New York Marathon, so I, I think I
4:20
need to make the most of it. Yeah, the other guys have a
4:23
little bit longer marathon build, so I just got to jump
4:28
right back into it. So I want to start, we're going
4:31
to jump all over the place because you've been up to so
4:33
much over the last year. But this decision to make your
4:37
marathon debut this November, why is now I guess the the
4:42
perfect time that you've kind of concluded with you and your
4:45
coach? And then also the second part to
4:47
it is, why New York? So the first thing is that I'm
4:52
planning to, you know, do the full transition after Los
4:55
Angeles, but I feel like I want to dip the toes in my toe in the
5:02
water just to see how it feels. I mean, after Los Angeles, I'm
5:08
going to be 33, so I want to make sure that I get as smooth
5:13
of a transition as possible. So if I can get one or maybe 2
5:17
marathon bills before it, I should be pretty confident on
5:21
how to do it in the future. So I started thinking about this
5:26
actually last summer and I thought that 2026 would be a
5:31
good year to do it because we have the Europeans in August and
5:35
then I could get a pretty good build for one of the fall
5:38
marathons. But a few of them are too early.
5:44
And so basically it came down to if I wanted to do New York or
5:49
Valencia, I think those are like basically the two options.
5:53
And I just felt like I, I rather do a race than a time trial as
5:59
my first marathon. I think it's a lot a little bit
6:02
easier to come into it and not just like chasing a time, more
6:07
just chasing a win or a good place placing in that race.
6:14
So I actually went to New York during my offseason last year,
6:17
and I saw it like both as a holiday but also a little bit as
6:20
a field trip because I wanted to see how it was.
6:22
I actually was at the technical meeting the day before the race
6:25
to see like, how's the procedure and everything.
6:28
And then obviously on race day, I got to feel the atmosphere.
6:30
And it's like, yeah, I want to do this.
6:32
It's so exciting. So where are we at right now in
6:35
terms of, you said 11 weeks to go until to the race?
6:38
So when did the the marathon specific training block start?
6:42
Because it does overlap obviously with Europeans which
6:45
you were peeking for. The real blocks basically start
6:48
after the Europeans. Yeah, but I'm a pretty high
6:52
mileage guy. So I think like mileage wise I
6:56
don't really have to do a big increase.
6:59
I mean, the three weeks after, after pre, I basically had two
7:03
100K weeks and then just, yeah, dropping down a little bit like
7:08
100 and 81150 and then the race week for the Europeans.
7:12
So I don't really have to do a lot of like transition in that
7:17
way. But it's a different type of
7:19
training for sure. I need to, you know, get those
7:21
long runs in the LT1 work, the more LT2 work like for the
7:26
threshold bill for, for track season and the half marathon.
7:30
So it's it's going to be different, but I think I'm in a
7:33
pretty good spot. When did your philosophy on long
7:36
runs change? Because if I remember a couple
7:38
years ago right when you used to just think like I'm racing for
7:41
30 minutes at most, like I don't necessarily need to be, you
7:45
know, on a Saturday or Sunday, going out for all that long.
7:49
At some point it must have shifted because now you are up
7:51
to much higher mileage. Yeah, I mean, it's basically
7:55
like what gets the most bang for the buck?
7:59
And I, I didn't really feel like I was in a position where I can
8:01
do like those long runs and get those like more higher speed
8:07
mileage with a double threshold and everything.
8:11
But I just, I felt like after last season I was in a better
8:14
spot. So then I could start increasing
8:16
and do 30K long runs and still feel fresh enough to do the
8:20
double thresholds, the hill work, the speed sessions and
8:23
everything. So I think like, you can't do
8:28
everything from start, you have to gradually, yeah, put in the
8:33
pieces. And yeah, now I thought that
8:35
wasn't a good spot. I mean, the long runs are
8:38
important. I just felt like the other
8:40
things were more important at that part in my career.
8:44
What's the longest you've gone so far?
8:47
Right now it's 33 Ki think it's gonna change to 35 K tomorrow
8:55
and then we're gonna gradually build up towards the marathon.
8:59
What's the most daunting part, I guess, or the, the part that you
9:03
are assessing is going to be the biggest learning curve for you.
9:05
So there's obviously venturing off into longer distances,
9:09
distances you have never covered before.
9:10
But then also the the fuelling element is one of the biggest
9:14
things that I think a lot of people also, you know, need to
9:16
take some time to dial in. I've also thought a lot about
9:20
that. So I've tried to do as much of
9:24
like gut training a fueling training as possible during
9:28
basically the whole, the whole year.
9:29
So when I've been out for those 30K long runs, I've I've done
9:33
120 grams per hour on those. When I do threshold on
9:38
treadmill, I make sure that that I drink during the reps, not
9:42
between the reps and everything and just train for that.
9:45
And now if I do like some track work, I make sure that I put up
9:50
a table so I can like train to grab the bottles, drink during
9:54
the run. And yeah, the fueling you need
9:57
to get right, but it's, it's one thing like if you do a workout
10:00
for one hour, I mean, that's one thing.
10:02
But like getting down the bottle at the 35 and or 40K, that's a
10:08
different thing. And you can't really know how
10:11
you feel until you basically race the race.
10:15
So it's going to be a little bit daunting for sure.
10:17
But I'm also I'm more excited than than scared about it.
10:22
Some of your previous half marathons, right?
10:23
Because you're not out there for, you're out there for 58
10:26
minutes. Like how much fueling was taking
10:29
place in some of those harder efforts that you've done over
10:32
the half? For some guys, it's it's so
10:34
little, right? Yeah.
10:35
I mean, when I race, I don't do any fueling at all.
10:38
I take a Gale like before, like right before the start, but
10:43
nothing during the race. And when I do like half marathon
10:47
prep work, I I I drink the Morton three 20s between the
10:51
reps, but I haven't really trained to fuel during hard work
10:56
else. But it's probably going to start
11:01
with it tomorrow because I have a pretty hard like 35K long run
11:05
with some efforts in it coming up tomorrow easing into like the
11:10
more how the more marathon specific work.
11:12
So after tomorrow, I'm going to be a little bit more sure I'm
11:17
going to react. The course you're taking on,
11:20
lots of hills, bridges, how are you going to, where are you?
11:24
I guess you, you mentioned before we started recording
11:26
you're going to spend some time in Flagstaff, but how else I
11:29
guess are you already simulating or is it right now just sort of
11:32
building the fitness and then doing more specific coursework?
11:37
No, I'm thinking about it from like right from start.
11:40
So when I do like my long runs and like marathon prep work, I'm
11:46
going to do it on yeah, on like tarmac or concrete and get
11:50
those, try to get those rolling heels in because I know that
11:54
that is that's the thing. They're going to kill you.
11:56
Like make sure that you can handle not just the uphill, but
12:00
the downhill. Yeah, the downer parts with like
12:03
the eccentric work for your quads and everything.
12:05
It's there are a lot of guys have died in Central Park, so I
12:11
need to make sure that I can handle it.
12:13
Yeah, for sure. My colleague Kyle Merber was
12:18
looking at I guess the workouts that you did before Valencia.
12:22
And so you did you know 3 by 5K at 144214251412 that was and
12:28
then a week later you did do 4 by 5 K 143314311426 and then
12:35
closing in 1359. So is marathon training 5 by 5K8
12:41
by 5K. What are you thinking there?
12:45
I'm probably going to do some kind of 5K work, but it's going
12:49
to be later when I'm more used to it.
12:53
But it might be up to 5 or no, probably six, 7:00-ish, We'll
13:00
see. But it's going to be a lot of,
13:01
you know, long runs with efforts in them or progressive long
13:05
runs, maybe 1 long temper run to try to run a little bit fast
13:10
from the start. But that's a good thing with New
13:14
York, like mostly it's I wouldn't say slow, but slow ish
13:20
in the beginning. So you just need to make sure
13:22
that you can run fast during the second-half.
13:25
So I think it's quite good to get those progressive long runs
13:28
and make sure that you you're not running on on a flat surface
13:32
like you need to get those, those hills because if you're
13:36
not used to it, you we're going to like collapse mechanically.
13:40
Yeah, One of the cool parts, I guess, when they do assemble
13:44
these marathon fields is that you don't necessarily know in
13:47
the process, like who else is going to be in the field.
13:49
And so when the announcement comes out, you see the full
13:51
list, and so you know who you're going to be up against.
13:53
What was your reaction? I guess you probably assume
13:56
Benson Caputo, he won last year. He'll probably be back.
13:59
The top Americans. It's usually that or Chicago's.
14:02
So Nat, when you saw the full list, what did you think?
14:05
It's it's going to be a tough year.
14:07
I mean, like like like a top 10 to 15.
14:11
I think probably the best ever, maybe in New York.
14:14
I don't know. But it's like, well, you know,
14:17
knew before that, like let's call it like the four Dragons,
14:20
like Kielcha Sava Kipling, more career.
14:24
They were they weren't going to run.
14:27
So you could kind of guess who were coming.
14:31
I was a little bit surprised that they that taller wasn't in
14:33
the list. I don't know where he's gone.
14:37
He's not been announced for any of.
14:38
Those. No, I don't think so.
14:39
Yeah. But I mean, it's going to be a
14:44
really great, great race. I think.
14:47
It's hard to tell. I feels like a lot of guys can
14:50
come top three and like miss top 15 at the same time.
14:54
It's like depends on who has the best day basically.
14:58
What did you make of his World Championships last year in
15:01
Tokyo? You finished right behind Yomi
15:03
and then you go off and a couple months later you see what he
15:08
does in London. Does any part of you, I guess,
15:11
like, how are you thinking track speed is translating to the
15:15
marathon now? Because on the women's side, it
15:17
was pretty clear right? When you see the top performers
15:20
and the people who are setting these national records, world
15:22
records, they all had some sort of track background like Sifan
15:26
is on running really well in the 800.
15:28
You add the Super shoes and the fueling and all that stuff.
15:30
Makes sense why she's run 213. Same thing.
15:34
Helen O'berry 215 Take us safe a 800 meter run her back in the
15:38
day 211 that on the men's side, it hasn't necessarily been a
15:43
direct one for one on the track stars, you know, instantly
15:47
having success in the marathon. So when you see Yomi's
15:51
performance, what does that do? I guess for your assessment of
15:53
like, hey, all right, like the track guys can run, you know,
15:58
2O12 it's sub two like these fast times in the full distance.
16:03
It feels like you can't run a slow race.
16:06
It's true. Like whatever he's doing, he's
16:09
going to run fast. It's like 347 Miller and then
16:13
159 marathon. It's it's crazy.
16:17
But yeah, I think like if you're just prepared for it, you're
16:21
going to run pretty well. And I mean, like a soldier.
16:25
I do a lot of high mileage. I think I topped out at like 215
16:31
K per week during my base training this year.
16:35
So and that's basically what a lot of marathon guys do.
16:40
So I, I just think that you need to like see where, where are the
16:44
bottlenecks and then you have to try to widen them as much as
16:48
possible. And now for my card, now I'm in
16:52
the best 10K shape of my life. So like anaerobically and like
16:58
like the VO2 part, I'm probably one of the best.
17:02
Like I'm not in the marathon game yet, but I'm probably one
17:05
of the best potential marathon in up in the marathon game.
17:09
So I just need to make sure that I can get the durability
17:12
basically. And it's easier said than done,
17:16
of course, but I think at least I have pretty good potential to
17:20
run fast sometime in the future. This episode of the City of
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19:18
Everyone's preaching mileage and when you are one of the high
19:22
mileage guys out there, I guess what's been the key to getting
19:25
the number up and then at the same time staying healthy?
19:27
So like what are you doing in between the sessions for
19:30
recovery and then knowing I guess like what the cap is on a
19:35
week? Yeah.
19:36
So for me, basically the thing has like my Achilles has always
19:41
been the intensity. It's like I'm coming from 800
19:44
meters and I got a lot of stress fractures and stress reactions
19:49
when I did the 800 meter training.
19:51
I have a lot of questions about you as an 800m runner.
19:53
We'll get to it in a bit. But when I started doing more
19:57
high mileage thing, that's like it just worked for me.
20:00
I just need to make sure that I don't combine those two.
20:05
It's like I got a stress fracture before the Paris
20:10
Olympics in 2024, and that was because I.
20:14
I wasn't really fully like adapted to the track season.
20:18
I basically went straight from base training to racing.
20:21
And then I would just like race every other week and be like a
20:24
5K in Stockholm 5K, also a 3K Stockholm Europeans championship
20:28
through 10K. And then I got a stress fracture
20:30
before the Olympics. So I just need to make sure that
20:33
I don't combine the mileage with the intensity.
20:38
And then usually I stay healthy, knock on wood.
20:42
But then like you get older, you generally just feel what's what
20:49
you can handle. And I'm, I'm have a lot easier
20:53
nowadays to say I need a rest day.
20:57
If I, and if I start to feel like a small niggle or small
21:00
sensation that something's wrong, I basically just stop
21:03
right away and take two or three days off to make sure that I get
21:07
rid of that thing. So like I, I ran started this
21:12
season with a 726 3K in in China.
21:16
Like 2 weeks before that I had started to feel some hamstring
21:21
issues after a threshold. And I just like, OK, I'm going
21:26
to skip the afternoon threshold. I'm going to take two rest days.
21:30
And then on Sunday I was back doing a long run, couldn't then
21:34
obviously I had some treatment, massage, everything in between
21:37
and then I can do my long run. And then I was just back at it.
21:41
But like five years ago, I would probably have continued and then
21:44
you, I run with pain for 10 days and then it's like, OK, now
21:48
something's broke and I'm going to have to rest for six weeks.
21:51
So basically just have to learn. Yeah, for you, I guess because
21:56
of the injury history, like do you have a particular code you
22:00
abide by when it comes to just sort of what you're doing in
22:03
what shoes or are you like, you know, how much work are you
22:06
doing in super shoes versus trainer?
22:09
And I I mean for parts of the year, you're on the treadmill a
22:12
lot too. Yeah, basically on treadmill all
22:15
throughout the year, there's like when I'm, I'm quite far out
22:21
from track season, I usually do the morning thresholds in normal
22:25
shoes because I want my calves to stay a little bit more active
22:31
during racing season or track season.
22:34
I do it more in super shoes because I feel like that saves
22:37
my save my calves a little bit when I do a lot of spike work on
22:41
track. But I think it's very important
22:44
nowadays to make sure that you do get like the lower leg
22:47
strength because it feels like you're not really that active
22:52
with your calves and everything anymore.
22:55
So yeah, I do a lot of work between the workouts to make
22:59
sure that I, well, still like feel active down there
23:04
basically. How much between now and
23:07
November? You still going to get into
23:09
spikes here and there or no? Not as much.
23:12
No, I have to do a little bit of spike work now because like in
23:16
Sweden, like every year we have this thing like a match between
23:19
Sweden and Finland. Yeah.
23:21
Yeah, yeah. So I have to do that.
23:23
So I need to make sure that I do a little bit of spike work just
23:26
to make sure that I can get through that race.
23:29
But after you have one more track race, no more Diamond
23:33
leagues or anything like that, Yeah, just a smaller one.
23:36
Right. I wouldn't call it a track race,
23:38
OK, it is a race. I need some track, but I won't
23:43
really race it. But but yeah, so that's the only
23:49
thing I'm not doing any more Diamond leaks.
23:53
I always have this in my mind. So I raced quite a lot in the
23:55
beginning of the season. So I've already done 6 Diamond
23:58
leaks this year and I think that's that's quite enough.
24:02
Yeah, why? Why no 5K at the Ultimate
24:05
Championships? And then assume it like if this
24:09
would have been a traditional world championship year with a
24:11
10K, would it have changed your decision to chase a gold medal
24:15
on the track versus the marathon debut?
24:19
No, it's like if it was like a normal track with World, normal
24:24
season with Worlds, it would probably be in September and
24:28
then I might have done go for Valencia or something if I want
24:31
to do a marathon because I feel like track is where my heart is
24:37
still. Then there's like what I still
24:41
think for for next year, next year, the 10K in Beijing is
24:46
going to be the most important race of the year.
24:49
So it wouldn't change anything. And then like with with
24:52
Ultimates, I mean, it doesn't have 10K, it's just 5K.
24:56
And it's going to be like probably a tactical championship
24:59
race. And then you get, I mean, Jacob
25:03
has a month more to prepare himself.
25:05
Cole's going to be there. It's like, yeah, I don't really,
25:09
really like to run those type of races.
25:12
Yeah, because I guess like you said right after Tokyo that it
25:15
was, you know, two other guys had a better kick than you.
25:18
And then when we kind of think of how New York is run and, and
25:23
one in, in Birmingham, you didn't leave it to a kick.
25:26
You made it hard for everyone else.
25:27
So there was no kick needed there.
25:29
But the way New York is also run, for the most part, they get
25:33
to about 16 miles on that Queensboro Bridge.
25:36
That's when they start to make moves up 1st Ave.
25:40
And then it's a battle of attrition and some sort of kick
25:43
in Central Park for whatever people have left, I guess.
25:47
How are you thinking of that kick still being there in a way
25:51
for for the marathon and has it improved?
25:54
Did you find that in the races so far this year that kick did
25:58
improve from Tokyo? Yeah, I, I feel like I'm better
26:03
at least like this in this spring.
26:05
I feel like I was better than I was in the spring last year.
26:10
But then going into the European Championship, I, I just said
26:16
like I'm not going to make this a kick race.
26:18
So I prepared for a hard race like right after pre.
26:23
So like all my prep I didn't do kick training basically I just
26:27
made sure that I was as strong as possible.
26:29
Like in 10K and 5K. My original plan wasn't to go
26:34
that early. My original plan was to take it
26:37
on after like 13 laps or something.
26:40
So I went a bit too early, but I just, I just trained to make
26:46
sure I was so strong and to make sure it wasn't just a Sprint
26:50
kick in the end. And for New York, I mean, it's
26:54
impossible to say if I can kick. I mean, I would say I had the
27:00
potential to be the best kicker in that field.
27:03
But it's like after one hour and like 50 minutes, I could be
27:08
completely broken down maybe. It's so hard to say.
27:13
I mean, coming into Valencia, the half marathon last year, I
27:20
mean I felt very good at around 16 K and we were three guys
27:30
coming in like kicking for 2nd place and in the end of that
27:35
race I just couldn't get the Sprint kick going.
27:39
So it's quite hard to say how your body's going to react, but
27:43
I don't think I'm going to lose that cake.
27:46
It's just basically like, will I be able to run fast after so
27:50
much running? What did the race in Birmingham
27:53
tell you? I guess in terms of the fitness
27:56
you, you've said multiple times that you believe you're in the
27:58
best 10K fitness of your of your life, although those last 800
28:04
meters K were pretty hard, I guess and in terms of difficulty
28:08
in Birmingham, but like what did, what did the did the
28:11
performance validate that belief?
28:14
Yeah, for sure. I mean, like the last four laps
28:17
I slowed down and it was that's because I I was kind of in
28:20
unknown territory. I felt tired and then just
28:23
wanted to make sure that I made it to the finish line.
28:28
I think like if I really needed to go for it, I could probably
28:31
have run a couple of second faster that has four laps.
28:38
I mean, I read somewhere that when I took over from three
28:42
laps, I ran the last 8800 meters in a pace that equal to 2637 for
28:51
10K. And I did that like in front
28:54
running and it was quite some wind on the back straight.
28:58
And I think some of the triple jumpers had like above 3 meters
29:03
per second in their jumps. So I think like with wave lights
29:08
and good Pacers, I could probably be in sub 2630 shape.
29:14
So yeah, like fitness wise, I'm extremely strong.
29:17
I did some workouts ahead of Europeans and I was like, yeah,
29:20
yeah, I'm strong now. So yeah, confidence wise, I'm in
29:26
a very good spot right now. I was listening to Ross Tucker
29:30
on the Real Science of Sport podcast and he was saying like
29:33
he was kind of confused as to why not just go, you know, it's
29:38
stage of 10K world record attempt or something like that.
29:41
This, you know, in the coming off of this performance, it just
29:44
feels like 1. I think people forget how fast
29:48
the record is now with chapter Guy and then two, it requires a
29:52
lot of a lot more pieces than just going out there and running
29:56
right. It's the pacemaking, the finding
29:58
the perfect condition. So they guess.
30:00
What are your thoughts on like that route and what did you ever
30:03
I think consider it seeing everything in training?
30:06
No, not really do it that way. If it was something that I would
30:10
just continue the normal track season with the diamond leagues
30:12
and and ultimates. I mean, I don't really like
30:17
those just pure record runs. I like racing more and I say
30:25
it's a quite tough like mentally to recharge after that EUR
30:31
because like that's the thing I've been targeting the whole
30:32
year. So do that race, then you need
30:37
something special to like trigger that motivation again.
30:41
And like New York has been something that could do that.
30:45
I'm more excited to do that than continue with the normal track
30:49
season. But my plan is to obviously
30:53
first stay healthy. But then next year, yeah, try to
31:00
either like arrange something or just find a race where you can
31:03
run really fast. Because I'm thinking like next
31:07
year is going to be like a normal track year.
31:09
And then 2028, we have the Olympics coming in very early in
31:13
the season. It's like middle of July, so in
31:18
my mind, 2027 is going to be like the season where I set my
31:23
personal records. That's going to stand after my
31:25
career, basically, yeah. Next year I hope to run some
31:28
really fast races on the track. Who do you need in in some of
31:31
those races? Because the the tricky part with
31:33
the 10K especially is right is like when someone reaches a
31:35
certain level and then they go taste the marathon, it's like,
31:38
all right, well, it's just going to be the marathon from here on
31:40
out. Like Chuck, the guy came, didn't
31:42
come back right. And it for for last year's
31:45
championships. So open invitation for that
31:50
race. Do you want, you know, Grant
31:52
there, Burrihu Arigawi, like who, who else do you think you
31:57
would want to push you, I guess in a, in a, in a performance
31:59
like that? All of them.
32:01
Yeah, yeah, I. Mean like, if we could have a
32:04
race with all the best guys, that would be quite amazing.
32:08
It's hard to say. It's like it takes so much out
32:11
of you to just like target the 10,000 media race on a track.
32:15
It's not like everyone wants to do that.
32:17
Basically most of the guys just want to run maybe a Tinky race
32:21
on the on the roads and then qualify for the championships
32:24
and then went for wait, wait for it.
32:28
But I mean, grants would be awesome to have there.
32:33
Of course. Like obviously now Jimmy has
32:38
left the track. He would be amazing to have in
32:41
those type of races. A couple of years ago Kaplimu
32:45
would have been a perfect guy. Don't really know what's
32:50
happened with Ari Garvey, haven't seen him the whole.
32:52
Year. Yeah, I haven't seen him either.
32:55
But it's obviously a guy who can can be up there just around like
32:58
2630. So, but I mean The thing is like
33:04
if you want to chase the fast Times Now, the thing you need a
33:08
good pacer, someone who can take you quite far and then you have
33:12
the wave lights. I think I've proven myself that
33:16
when I want, I can be pretty good front runner both here and
33:20
then when I broke the European fight record last year.
33:25
So if we can get a decent pacer and then wave lights in good
33:29
conditions, I think that could yeah be pre like good enough.
33:34
Sounds like you got to come to California in March for when
33:37
they do that, that 10K race, it's it's like maybe the second
33:40
fastest or fastest 10K race of the year typically.
33:44
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely something that I thought about,
33:49
but we'll see. It's like now I'm going to
33:51
finish this like this season and then I'm going to start to start
33:54
focusing on and start planning for the next one.
33:58
My colleague Kyle, you know, has a stint argument that basically
34:01
every distance runner should move up in distance sooner than
34:05
they do. Everyone sits at the same
34:07
distance for years and then they start to get diminishing returns
34:11
and then they move up eventually when it's when it's too lace.
34:15
But you're like a really good case study for moving up on
34:21
time. And when we go back all those
34:23
years and you ran 1:45 at 19 years old, yes, you did get sort
34:28
of injured. But when you finally moved up, I
34:30
guess like, what were the signs you looked at that said, OK,
34:34
this is going to be like we, we, we do have to move up in
34:37
distance. I obviously had a lot of
34:39
injuries after those first 800m years.
34:43
Then in 2019 I was in Sweden during the Doha champions World
34:52
champs and I had a sacral stress fracture.
34:56
And then I saw my friend Caliberland, Swedish 1500m
35:01
runner, made it make it to the 1500 meter final and he had
35:07
started training like the Norwegians basically and done it
35:12
for about one 1 1/2 years. And at that moment I was like,
35:16
OK, it worked for him, maybe I should try it.
35:20
So when I got rid of that injury and started training, I, yeah,
35:26
felt we got like big returns quite instantly.
35:31
And then for the indoor season, I decided like, OK, I'm not
35:33
going to run indoors. I'm just going to run our
35:35
nationals. And since I'm doing base
35:38
training, I'm going to try to run the 3K because that's
35:40
probably where I'm at right now. And then in my first 3K race
35:45
ever, I broke our Swedish national record and I was like,
35:49
OK, maybe this is something for me.
35:53
So, yeah. And then I continued to run the
35:55
3K and it went very well. And it's like, OK, I run well in
35:57
the 3K, then I should try the 5K.
36:01
And then I I finished fourth at the Europeans, got accepted for
36:07
my first Diamond League race and I ran 13 O one that first quick
36:11
race. And I was like OK, yeah, this
36:13
works well for me. Like 2 years later I was like
36:18
OK, I should maybe try a 10K road race during the base
36:23
training and I ran 2720 for that one.
36:28
Then it's like OK, I'm going to run the 10 now to see where I'm
36:32
at. And then 265052 in that race was
36:34
like, just try to step up and it's always works.
36:38
So that's the thing with the marathon.
36:40
It's like, well, it worked well in the in the past.
36:43
I should just try to see what happens.
36:45
Worst case scenarios. I I run slow.
36:50
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38:26
If you had been healthy from 2016 to 2019, you think you
38:31
would have stuck with the 800? You would.
38:33
You'd be maybe a 142 guy right now.
38:36
Yeah, well, I would have been still like a 145 guy, just not
38:41
really gets get better. And I would just, yeah, like
38:44
Kyle says, stay with a sad will just stay with a wrong distance
38:48
for for too long. It's hard to say.
38:51
It's like in my mind, I think just like, OK, I got 145 and got
38:55
the bronze medal at the World Juniors.
38:57
I should have just started with doing double thresholds at that
38:59
point and then I could maybe run a really fast 1500.
39:03
All right, if there's a 1500 meter guy out there right now
39:07
listening to this and he's been running consistently three 34335
39:12
nowadays, like that's not getting you an invite into too
39:16
many Diamond League races or anything like that.
39:18
So what what are the tells in training or something that says
39:23
OK it's let's try the 5K at least.
39:28
I mean, to be a really good 50 nanometer runner, you'd need to
39:31
be fast. I mean, like a lot of guys say
39:37
I'm not that fast, but they are just they are lying.
39:40
They're still, they're still fast.
39:45
So I mean, if you feel if you know, there's like threshold or
39:49
just like the aerobic endurance part, it's like your strongest
39:52
suit and you still only around 334, then I think it's the sign
39:57
that you should try to to move upwards.
40:01
But it's not that easy because like 5K it's is a difficult
40:04
event. You really need to learn to run
40:07
it because it's painful for so long.
40:14
When you really go for a fast time, it's, yeah, it's extreme.
40:17
I see. I think you kind of need to
40:19
learn how to run it. But that's also like the thing
40:23
with double threshold and that kind of system, it's like, first
40:29
of all, it's not just doing double threshold and you're
40:32
becoming fast. That that's like builds the
40:34
foundation to be able to do the thing that actually makes you
40:37
run fast in events. And also it takes some time.
40:40
I mean, I, I did double threshold since end of 2019 and
40:47
it's where it was really in like 2024 where I got my real
40:51
breakthrough. I ran, I ran well in 23 and 22,
40:55
but it's like just made it out. I just missed the World
41:00
Championship final in, in 23. So it's like at that level I was
41:04
at. But after that I started to
41:06
like, yeah, really improve. So you you have to stick with it
41:13
for quite some time. Yeah.
41:15
All right. So if we we go back to 2019 and
41:17
and that time period where you're starting to 'cause you've
41:19
been with with your same coach forever the whole entire time
41:24
double threshold Norwegian method that got popularized.
41:29
You know around the time you're coming back from this injury.
41:32
Now that we're in 2026 and you, you know, have the gains from
41:36
applying that into your training, if we look at how you
41:40
operate, you know, every every week or looking at a month of
41:44
your training, how different is it from, I guess when you first
41:48
started doing double threshold in training and like what are
41:51
the modifications you made? So now it's not the Norwegian
41:54
method. If we're looking at the Omgrin
41:56
method, how different is it now? So first, first of all, I I run
42:01
a lot more now. When I started doing it, I think
42:05
I averaged maybe 145 K, topped out at like 160 or something,
42:12
and now it's above 200 K during a base training, base training
42:17
week. Then like previously I aimed
42:22
more for like 2.53 point 5, but now I try to do a little bit
42:27
lower just to make sure I have some extra margins like of
42:31
safety but I run longer thresholds like work.
42:39
Else though I started doing like 5 by 5 minutes basically when I
42:48
started doing double threshold in the morning and now I do 6 by
42:50
6 minutes or sometimes even up to like 6 by 7 minutes or
42:55
something. Then like in the afternoon I
43:01
usually do like K repeats and do like 12 by 1K instead of 8 by
43:07
1K. When I started and also
43:12
previously I did 4 hundreds but now I've stepped up to do 5
43:16
hundreds because I want, I want that like shorter threshold
43:21
workout to be more like 10K pace.
43:23
And I felt like I got a bit too good at it so I ran too fast on
43:27
my 4 hundreds. So then I just started doing 5
43:31
hundreds instead. But also I do like a lot more of
43:37
the things on the side like pre AB work, strength work, drills,
43:42
strides, everything. It was like actually up until
43:47
like 2 years ago, I both started at university and worked part
43:52
time. So it wasn't until like 2 years
43:54
ago when I like finally became fully professional and got the
43:58
time to do everything that I need.
44:01
You're a risk analyst, right? At first I was a risk analyst at
44:05
a financial company and also then like a data scientist that
44:09
has sportec company. So I'm a few courses shy of
44:15
having a master's degree in applied mathematics.
44:20
So with risk analysis, you're modeling the probability of, of
44:24
bad outcomes. So when you're running a race,
44:28
do you run in your head thinking of whatever the risk model is of
44:32
the of the pace and, and all that kind of stuff?
44:35
Yeah, kind of. It's like 8 or 9 laps in or
44:38
something in the euro. So I was like, what the fuck
44:41
have I done? Yeah, yeah, I was like, OK, I,
44:45
I, I ruined everything. This was like, OK, it's still a,
44:48
it's a high risk, but it's still a high rewards.
44:50
I just going to have to keep doing this.
44:52
But it's like, yeah, you're doing a lot of risk analysis,
44:55
like a lot of time, of course. With you and your coach having
45:01
this long standing relationship and then just sort of the
45:04
different training adaptations, I guess like what, how, how, how
45:08
active is he in in modeling? I guess some of the training
45:11
because you also, I think just write a lot of it yourself too,
45:15
right? Yeah, I mean, like for the last
45:18
years it's basically been me, like I I basically write my own
45:22
program and then I discuss some parts with him.
45:29
Dream base training is like basically the same like week,
45:33
week after week. So you don't have to do a lot of
45:36
like adaptations or alterations there.
45:40
But then may more coming on into racing season, we'll have a
45:43
little bit more discussing discussions about what to do.
45:47
But like in the end, I do the planning and decide the
45:52
workouts. And if we disagree about
45:56
something, then it's like, oh, like in the end, you know your
45:59
body the best. So we'll do that.
46:02
And like, a lot of his work is to make sure I don't do too
46:06
much, just like be kind of like a devil's advocate and make sure
46:11
that I have to really like argue and motivate.
46:14
Why do I need to do this? And if I can't explain it well
46:18
enough, then it's maybe not the best idea.
46:20
All right, what's 1 workout or run that he's talked to you out
46:24
of like that you had in mind? You're like, I want to do this.
46:27
And he's like, no, no, no, that's a bad idea.
46:30
No, it's like a lot before, like Tokyo last year, we did a lot
46:35
of, you know, because in the heat and everything, you know
46:39
that it was going to be a slow race and a Sprint finish.
46:42
But those like kick training, like change of pace and
46:46
everything that takes a lot out of you.
46:48
So sometimes it's like, do you really think that we need to do
46:53
this last Rep? And then I'm like, no, we've
46:58
done enough probably. So it's my like makes me
47:02
question during, during the workouts because then I was
47:08
going to finish like with, I don't know, maybe a 400 or
47:11
something with a lot of change of pace and then did probably
47:15
like 8K or track work ahead of that.
47:21
And like four of those were with like quite fast.
47:25
Yeah. When you're devising your own
47:26
training. Where are you?
47:28
Looking for like references on like, I think that this would
47:31
be, you know, a good training stimulus for this or like, is it
47:35
just because now you've been, you've mapped out the last eight
47:39
years, you have so much to pull from?
47:42
Yeah, basically I know what have what has worked very well for me
47:48
previously. And then I just think about like
47:51
the races and just try to see what what are the bottlenecks
47:55
and how do I think that this race is going to pan out and how
47:59
can I prepare for it in the best way like thinking of like the
48:04
Europeans now we had this racing season, yeah, with a lot of
48:09
races. So around the three K 5K in
48:12
China, then 1500 in Stockholm, 5K Oslo, 5K Paris, and then two
48:17
mile in Eugene. So I know like those 5K efforts,
48:23
I was like I was really good at it and I done a lot of overspeed
48:29
as well. So then coming into the block
48:32
heading into to Euros and I felt like, OK, I really need to build
48:35
the tanky strength again. So then we had like a 10 week, a
48:40
three-week block of like high mileage, some threshold,
48:45
threshold plus, and like hard workouts per week and make sure
48:50
that it was a lot in 10K pace. So when I did that threshold, it
48:57
was 5 hundreds because then I could, yeah, hit it with, yeah,
49:03
10K pace. When I did the threshold plus, I
49:05
did like 1 case because then I hit like the rate intensity and
49:10
then I start to work out to train a little bit other systems
49:14
basically. And then the last few weeks
49:18
heading into the championship, I was planning in my mind like OK,
49:20
I'm going to go after 5K. Then I should be like build
49:26
workouts where I run progressively to make sure that
49:30
I can run really fast when I'm real like somewhat fatigued.
49:36
So then I could do like 5 by 2K whenever 2K Rep was faster and
49:42
something and stuff like that. It's not like something
49:47
revolutionary, it's just logical.
49:51
All right, so as you're not in the Ultimate Championships 5K,
49:55
as someone who's been in these high level races, give me your
49:59
thoughts on like how you think that race plays out.
50:01
I guess like we still have some extra data points that we we
50:04
still haven't seen like what how Jacob and Cole are going to do
50:07
in these 15 hundreds. But as of right now, like based
50:10
on what you've seen in some of these early races, how do you
50:13
see that one shaking on? I was really surprised that
50:16
Jacob was back in that shape because what I've heard, he's
50:21
not been like in the best training shape.
50:23
So it's going to be very exciting to see like he gets a
50:26
month extra training. I mean, obviously I, I know him,
50:32
I train a bit with him, so I'm rooting for him.
50:35
Yeah. Yeah.
50:37
No, it's 5K. Is it before or after the 1500?
50:41
I think hi, that's a good question.
50:43
I think it's. I think it might be before.
50:46
Yeah. So then Cole will be fresh.
50:50
Yeah, it's going to be interesting because like, yeah,
50:55
as you know, with Cole having the injuries like in the spring,
51:01
wasn't really at his best in the first time league.
51:03
But now he's had a whole summer to regain his fitness and it
51:07
looks like he's, it seems like he's back in really good shape
51:10
now. I mean, his last lap in in
51:15
Tokyo, it was was insane. So I think it's going to be
51:19
quite hard to beat if he's in that shape.
51:21
But if Jacob could get close to what he was in where he was in
51:26
2024 and beginning of 2025, then then I think he is the best.
51:32
I mean, when I trained with him in Sierra Nevada in January,
51:37
February 2025, it was, it was crazy.
51:42
I just checked the schedule and yeah, the, the 5K is first.
51:45
So everyone will be, will be fresh for it.
51:48
And it's, it's kind of funny because I think a couple of
51:50
years ago you said, I think if you could have one fantasy
51:52
training partner, it would have been Mo Farah.
51:54
And thinking about just the way that he won those championships,
51:57
you don't see those kinds of races anymore.
51:59
Like your race in Birmingham was the opposite of a Mo Farah race.
52:04
Oh. But he had some serious speed.
52:07
Yeah, he did. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, it's
52:11
like you've I've heard workouts that he's done and I don't know
52:14
if people like, you know, exaggerate them like, yeah, from
52:19
mouth to mouth. But it's like, yeah, you could,
52:22
if those are true, then you can understand why you no one could
52:25
beat him in the end of a championship.
52:27
I can't really do that type of workout, but I can run quite
52:31
fast without getting a lot of lactic lactate.
52:35
So yeah, I just need to do what I'm good at basically.
52:40
All right, so if my final question is, I mean, how are you
52:43
going to define success in New York?
52:45
Like what is the hope and feeling you're hoping to take
52:48
away from that performance? And then also like thinking of
52:51
LA in 2028, which is kind of funny to think of like that's
52:55
going to be your Olympic debut just because of the injury in in
52:58
Paris and in Tokyo before that that I was like, it's crazy you
53:02
haven't competed in Olympics, but we'll make it there this
53:05
time. And but does it, do you think
53:08
anything could happen if you win New York?
53:11
Could it change your thoughts and plans on like LA 2028?
53:15
Or does the 10K mean that much to you that you're like, no
53:19
matter what, I'm going to run that at the Olympics?
53:23
It's hard to say. It's like, well, if I win New
53:28
York, which might not be the most likely outcome, that I
53:35
might do some kind of like, yeah, re a re evaluation, but
53:41
then I would need to run another marathon to qualify for the
53:47
Olympics. Now we see.
53:50
I mean, I would really love to run at least one Olympic track
53:54
race. I mean, as you said, it was not
53:56
just Paris and Tokyo, but back in Rio.
54:00
I also got a navic navicular stress fracture right before it.
54:03
So it's been 3, 3 injuries for 3 Olympics.
54:10
But I mean, also like being competitive in an Olympic
54:15
marathon. That's also something that's
54:18
really tempting. So we'll see.
54:22
But I think I should just focus on New York now and not think
54:26
about Los Angeles too much. But also like I think 10K is
54:30
like the first day and the marathon is.
54:32
The the double is possible. Yeah, double.
54:34
Is possible? So here's what you got to do.
54:38
Then you just got to win New York and then next year just go
54:43
to Valencia and hit the qualifier.
54:45
Like maybe don't go all out and try and win in two O 1.
54:48
Just hit whatever the time is, get the standard and then you do
54:52
the double in in in 2028. I mean there's there's different
54:56
paths that I think people can take to the whole entire thing.
54:59
I guess you're kind of lucky that you don't have to worry
55:01
about a Swedish Olympic marathon trials where he finished top
55:05
three. Like that's that's the issue we
55:07
have here in the States, a little bit of an extra stressor.
55:10
Yeah, absolutely. That's a like a really good
55:13
thing with being a Swede. I think like between 3:00 and
55:18
8:00 K at the European Championships I ran faster than
55:22
the second fastest Swede has done in 5K.
55:26
Yeah. Like ever.
55:28
Yeah, yeah. So.
55:31
So yeah, I don't really have to stress too much about those
55:35
elections. Well, Andreas, I appreciate you
55:38
taking the time for this. Excited to see you in New York.
55:41
I am also going to be running it so but I'll be further back.
55:45
We're we're running for fun in New York.
55:47
So I will have my phone on me. So I'll keep track on like how
55:51
things are doing up in the front.
55:53
And then maybe, you know, once you're showered and had already
55:57
food, we'll probably be crossing the finish line an hour and a
56:00
half or so late later after you. Yeah, I'll be there sharing.
56:03
Perfect. Well, Andreas, thanks so much
56:05
for doing this and best of luck with the with the marathon
56:08
training. Great.
56:09
Thanks a lot. All right, that's a wrap on
56:13
today's episode. Thanks for listening, for the
56:15
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